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Judge not lest ye be judged.

Jesus said this, btw. It's not my own idea.

by: Faramir

There has been a lot of talk on this forum among Christians about "judgement" and whether one has the right to judge.
I've been doing some thinking and some research about this, and this is what I've come up with.
It is perfectly right, and sometimes is obligatory to judge a particular act.
We need to make a judgement for our own sakes that abortion is wrong, or that it's wrong to steal. And it's not improper to tell that to someone else.
But it's wrong to judge someone else's heart.
We dont know what's going on inside them. We haven't walked a mile in their moccasins. We might very well have don the same thing in similar circumstances. It is not right to judge in a way in which we make ourselves superior to someone else.
There are plenty of circumstances in which judgment of an act is proper. But it is never proper to judge the indivudual who committed the act. That is God's job and not ours.
It's right to judge an act, but wrong to judge the person who commits the act.

reply from: joe

I cannot judge Hitler? Funny you pro-life advocates judged Paul Hill.
Lies and hypocrisy while the children die.

reply from: Banned Member

We have the right and obligation to call sin by its name. And where does sin come from but from within the heart of the person? So often when St Paul was writing to his disciples it was to tell them in essence "You're screwing up! You're heart is bad and it needs to change!" And it was out of love that he did this, not out of hate. We must call sin by its name. Without naming sin what is the frame of reference by which to correct our brethren and point them towards Christ? And if we do not judge hearts when it is the currupted acts of the heart that are shamelessly put on display, what are we to speak of?
This forum primarily speaks of and against abortion. It is one thing to say that we may have done similar things when it comes to sin, but it is quite another when people are talking about such a grave as that of taking the life of another human being and condone the doing so by others. I would never deride someone for making an horrible decision in the worst of circumstances, but when someone jokes about the taking of another human beings life and still stubbornly advocates the right to others to do so, than I think that we can judge that a persons heart is bad.
I have never told or encouraged anyone to have an abortion. I have written to the best of my ability to dissuade people from having an abortion and why abortion is such a grave evil and wrong. It is not love however or compassionate to confirm a person in their own sins by coddling them and failing to address that darkness that lies not only within them, but that spills out for all the world to see. We must be bold disciples of the truth and show people the way, not carefully wend our way around unpleasant confrontations in the name of being non-judgemental.

reply from: sander

Another well written and well rounded post, Augustine.
I'm continually amazed at the gift God has given you and count it a privilage to be in a position to read your thoughts.
I can't think of a thing to add to what is here.
Thank you for speaking for many.

reply from: nancyu

I cannot judge Hitler? Funny you pro-life advocates judged Paul Hill.
Lies and hypocrisy while the children die.
I think, if a mother can legally kill her own child, the rest of us can do whatever the hell we want.

reply from: galen

great can i wed you to Tiller?

reply from: nancyu

No thanks, he's not my type.

reply from: galen

gee nancy... get creative... or can you only be meany beany?

reply from: Faramir

Of course.
You don't know what is in his heart. What is objectively evil might not be subjectively evil. Only God sees the heart.
Let's see a quote instead of your paraphrasing. Also, St. Paul communicated with Jesus and was specially chosen by God, so maybe he knew a few things you don't.
It might be good for the ego, but it's wrong and goes against your Catholic beliefs. Don't take my word for it. Consult with a good priest. You have no right or business judging that someone's heart is "bad."
If you demean someone by telling them they don't deserve to have children, you could be indirectly encouraging them to have an abortion.
It is perfectly right to point out flaws and sinful behavior for the sake of the sinner and others. To not judge is not to "coddle."
Your comments that a person on this board did not deserve to have children, etc., were entirely inappropriate and out of line. There was nothing "bold" about your remarks. The truth should be a light--not a club that is used to serve one's ego.

reply from: nancyu

Of course.
You don't know what is in his heart. What is objectively evil might not be subjectively evil. Only God sees the heart.
Let's see a quote instead of your paraphrasing. Also, St. Paul communicated with Jesus and was specially chosen by God, so maybe he knew a few things you don't.
It might be good for the ego, but it's wrong and goes against your Catholic beliefs. Don't take my word for it. Consult with a good priest. You have no right or business judging that someone's heart is "bad."
If you demean someone by telling them they don't deserve to have children, you could be indirectly encouraging them to have an abortion.
It is perfectly right to point out flaws and sinful behavior for the sake of the sinner and others. To not judge is not to "coddle."
Your comments that a person on this board did not deserve to have children, etc., were entirely inappropriate and out of line. There was nothing "bold" about your remarks. The truth should be a light--not a club that is used to serve one's ego.
^Another pro choice pro lifer at work.^

reply from: nancyu

I am creative, I just don't like the artsy fartsy stuff.

reply from: Faramir

You won't find a single prochoice statement in that quote or in any of my posts.

reply from: Banned Member

To be honest Faramir, I don't really care what you think.
I am not going coddle abortionists that think that ripping an innocent human being out of the womb is some kind of joke.
How nice I am to the abortionist is inconsequential to their actions. Conversion is the act of the inner will to seek truth. You would seem to prefer that we meet the expectations that their rationalizations require. No thank you very much.

reply from: galen

I am creative, I just don't like the artsy fartsy stuff.
----------------------------------
yeah its kinda hard with half a conscience and half a brain... but that's ok we'll forgive you... one day.
\ i wonder if you have half a brain and half a conscience maybe that makes you a half prolifer... hmmmmm

reply from: Faramir

I'm just pointing out that you're in error and are going against your Catholic faith.
You do not have the right or the ability to judge someone's heart.
I never said you shouldn't point out an injustice or error, though.

reply from: Banned Member

Father John Corapi disagress with you on that point as I was watching him address just such a matter this, this afternoon. I am not in error.

reply from: sander

If we can't judge a person by the words of their mouth, then what else does that leave?
Matthew 12:34.....for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
It's tiresome to read post after post by those who refuse to take the whole counsel of God into consideration.
That leaves the blind leading the blind and both falling into a ditch. Pity.

reply from: Faramir

Do you have a quote?
I'm currently watching his series on EWTN, so maybe I'll be seeing the same program.

reply from: 4given

Lies and hypocrisy while the children die.

reply from: Faramir

Lies and hypocrisy while the children die.
I hate to spoil your fun, but besides the fact that you are not qualified to judge someone's heart, that prerogative is reserved for God alone.

reply from: Banned Member

How do you propose to separate the person from the act? If one commits murder, that person is a murderer. You cannot say that no, that person is not a murderer, murder is only something that they have done.
The Father Corapi program was today and part of the The Catholic Family, Garden of Holiness series, 'Attacks on the Family"

reply from: sander

If some have their way, guess we better just shut down the court system, fire all the judges, send the juries home and the lawyers will have to get a real job (sorry, couldn't resist), but that's the only way their logic makes sense.

reply from: Faramir

How do you propose to separate the person from the act? If one commits murder, that person is a murderer. You cannot say that no, that person is not a murderer, murder is only something that they have done.
The Father Corapi program was today and part of the Attacks on the Family series, which program in the series, I am not sure.
You can and must separate the person from the act.
You realize, don't you, that what might be a mortal sin for you, might NOT be a mortal sin for someone else, depending upon the situation?
I might know full well if I do "X" that is is an evil thing to do, but if someone else does "X" I cannot say with certainty that it was because of an evil heart. I can't see his heart, and there could be a host if mitigating circumstances.

reply from: Banned Member

I do realize that! But that does not mean that I am not incapable of analyzing the situation.
If a person knowingly and willingly advocates abortion and knows that it is the killing of a human person, than that persons heart is bad. That they do not agree personally that abortion is bad and morally a grave sin does not excuse their actions.
If you can show me anything to suggest that LolitaOlivia does not know that abortion is wrong and murder and that that is why she advocates abortion than I will take back my remarks, but until then, I believe that there is every sign from her own words that she knows what abortion is, knows what abortion does, and that she does not even care that abortion is evil. There are no mitigating circumstances here. She is clearly and willingly advocating evil actions and murder by the choice of her own will by her own admissions.

reply from: Banned Member

Matthew 12:33-37
"Either declare the tree good and its fruit is good, or declare the tree rotten and its fruit is rotten, for a tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

reply from: Faramir

I do realize that! But that does not mean that I am not incapable of analyzing the situation.
If a person knowingly and willingly advocates abortion and knows that it is the killing of a human person, than that persons heart is bad. That they do not agree personally that abortion is bad and morally a grave sin does not excuse their actions.
If you can show me anything to suggest that LolitaOlivia does not know that abortion is wrong and murder and that that is why she advocates abortion than I will take back my remarks, but until then, I believe that there is every sign from her own words that she knows what abortion is, knows what abortion does, and that she does not even care that abortion is evil.
Then at least we agree somewhat in principle.
I think abortion is as evil a thing as you do.
But I can't say Lolita is evil, in spite of what she says, because she might be misguided, and might be repeating stuff she's heard, or might be throwing this stuff at us as a defense.
Here's an interesting article about this topic:
"Love your enemies and turn the other cheek." "Judge not, lest you be judged" (Lk 6: 27-38). It sounds admirable to some. To others, it sounds preposterous. The 19th century German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche thought this sort of thinking led to a society full of weaklings. Karl Marx thought these words of Jesus helped the capitalists keep the oppressed under their thumb. Does Jesus want us to be doormats, suckers who allow ourselves to be taken advantage of by every bully, dictator and gangster that comes down the pike?

Let's look at the life of Jesus and David. David did not kill Saul, the Lord's anointed (1 Sam 26). But neither did he give himself up. He resisted the injustice of the insecure king even while he respected him and refused to give into hatred. When the citizens of Nazareth wanted to throw Jesus over the brow of the hill, he slipped through the crowds and escaped (Lk 4:29-30). His time had not yet come. When Henry VIII divorced his wife, married another, and declared himself head of the Church, his Chancellor Thomas More quietly resigned and did everything he could ethically to avoid being imprisoned and executed (see the movie A Man for All Seasons).
But when false testimony finally led to the conviction and death sentence for the Lord Jesus and his 16th century disciple, Thomas More, it was time to give witness to the truth with their blood. It was time to turn the other cheek.
Notice the attitude of our Lord towards his persecutors - "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do (Lk 23:34)." And Thomas More's words to the executioner, after giving him a tip: "Do not hesitate to do your duty, for you send me to God."
Tough love sometimes demands we say tough words. Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and publicly exposed how they were fooling themselves and violating God's law (Mark 7). After the sentence was passed at his trial, Thomas More loudly proclaimed to the packed courtroom that the King had no right to proclaim himself head of the Church of England.
But wait a minute. Isn't that judging? Didn't Jesus say not to judge or condemn?
What no human being can or should do is judge the ultimate standing of a person before God, based on the inner motivations of the heart. People can do some abominable things based on fear, hurt, or misinformation. Recall the words of Jesus: "they know not what they do." But what they do is abominable, nonetheless. God alone is competent to judge the heart. We can and must judge whether the objective behavior of a person is bad or good, right or wrong. And sometimes it is our duty to tell them that it is wrong and condemn it. Abortion is wrong. But that does not mean that this particular woman or physician is evil, separated from God, going to hell. And it does not mean that I am better and more virtuous than this particular woman or physician. Jesus said from those to whom much has been given, much will be expected. Maybe the woman and the physician coming home from the abortion clinic have done more with what they've been given than I. That's not for me to figure out. That's God's call.
My call is to love then and care enough about them to speak the truth to them, and help them get the support they need to live according to the truth.
Dr. Bernard Nathanson, notorious abortionist, and Norma McCorvey, the "Roe" of Roe vs. Wade, are prolife activists today. Why? Because they met prolifers who lived the gospel ethic, who while hating and condemning the sin, truly loved the sinner.

Love like that is supernatural. It is only possible for God and for those who let His love work through them. Will such love change everyone? The example of Judas and the Pharisees would argue not. Yet Norma McCorvey and Dr. Nathanson's example show that for those whose hearts are open, such love is irresistable.
http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/71/Judge_Not__Lest_You_be_Judged.html

reply from: Banned Member

1859: Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
____________
I think that you Faramir must reconsider the difference between judgement of act and personal condemnation. I would be wrong to condem. However I would be greatly amiss if I did not proclaim my judgement of the act, and certainly where lives are at stake such as they are when we speak of abortion.

reply from: Faramir

I see what you have in bold, which is what I've been trying to say. Are you in agreement with me now, or is that somehow supporting your position, becuase if it is, I don't see how.

reply from: sander

If there's any objection to the above, I'll be sorry to read it.
The difference between judging and condemnation can't be expressed anymore clear than this.

reply from: Banned Member

I entrust people to the mercy of God, but should I stand by while people proclaim a murderous lie? Should I not speak the truth, and call people's actions for what they are? I believe that evil exists and that it can exist in the hearts of people, and even manifest itself in truly frightening ways?
Your viewpoint seems to suggest that all people are essentially, even when in the state of grave sin.
Our actions can not be evil while our hearts are good. If we say that a we have not sin, we call God a liar. I also believe that if we say that evil is not evil, we call God a liar. People can be most seriously in the grips of sin and evil. We cannot condem, for only God can do that. But a person cannot love God and sin and neither can we love a person, AND the sin!
When the apostles asked why they did not have the power to cast out demons, Jesus told them it was because their faith was weak. We must have a strong faith and not simply throw about slogans such as "Do not judge, do not judge!" That is what the pro-abortionists would have us do, not judge, not speak and allow abortion to continue.

reply from: Faramir

If you tell someone it is wrong to abort and it is the unjust taking of a life, that would be judging an act or a future act, and there is a time and place for that kind of observation.
But to go off on someone because of their abortions and to say they don't deserve the child they are now carrying is to enter the realm of condemnation.

reply from: Banned Member

My own words.
LolitaOlivia, you are pathetic. Better for your child had you never conceived. You don't deserve to be a mother.
Sure, she is pregnant and at the same time would condone a thousand other womens choice today to have an abortion. Baby killers don't deserve the joys of parenthood, not while they condone the killing of other peoples children. It is a just logic that serves to show that the evil lies of the pro-abortionists continue to lead women to believe that it is okay to have an abortion. She is a mother, and somewhere someone bears the emotional scars that resulted from her pro-abortion lies.
The mere fact that she would make a joke of abortion shows her quality.

Nothing I could say could reach such a hard heart as one that does not understand the difference between life and death.

Better to have been conceived by a mother that respects life, or that at least regrets the lives that they have advocating the taking of than to be conceived by an unrenpent abortionist. Not having been concieved would be better than being conceived to an abortionist is not the same as being conceived and then and aborted
It would be better if this child had had a different mother.
Should one feel too blessed to have children, when their advocacy causes the deaths of innocent children. Feel blessed indeed if you are so moved.
I think it fair however if no pro-choice women ever conceives.
LolitaOlivia's words.
After many years devoted to the prochoice movement I've finally realized how wrong I've been. What lives in the womb is a child and there is no excuse for killing it. Today when I saw my unborn child on the ultrasound my whole life and opinion changed. I realized I am pregnant with a person, who's older sibling I murdered. I've realized that abortion is simply a way to murder your child legally, and that the legality of it is why for so long I've convinced myself it's okay, and why I myself was willing to get one.
I've realized that I've killed my baby, and I will have to live with that for the rest of my life. The only reason I ever debated with any of you was it was a way to tell myself what I did was okay and to put off feeling guilty a little longer. I am sorry for any trouble I've caused any of you, and I want to thank you for helping me see the light. I'm going to seriously rethink my life and the choices I've made.
God Bless!
Lolita Olivia
Seriously, just kidding!
You may judge whose view is the wiser.
I would stand by my words before God. Would she be willing to do the same?

reply from: galen

augustine... you just said this:
It would be better if this child had had a different mother.
And while i agree that lolita has a few' problems' ... i just can't get around the fact that God created this child... why do you question His will in this matter... he must have some reason.. right?

reply from: Faramir

In light of the situation with her pregnancy, I think your words were excessively harsh.
Somehow we veered off into discussing whether it is right to judge someone's heart, and you supported the idea that it was, and others have as well, and that was the main issue I was addressing in this thread--not just your comments.
But as far as your particular comments to Lolita, after reading them again, I don't think they are necessarily judgements of her heart. Words like that could have the effect of snapping someone out of their error, under the right conditions, and I hope that was your intent. Otherwise, it is just dumping on someone.

reply from: Banned Member

A few problems? Is that how we define murder now? As a problem?
If she remains unrepentent this child will grow up in the eyes of a mother that believes that it is okay to kill unborn children and that her child might have been among them. Does God have a greater plan? I do not know the plan that God has for this woman, or her child. I cannot speak to that. Better than she had repentented. But if this child becomes a pro-abortion advocate themselves and has an abortion is that the better outcome?
Would it have been better had this child been conceived by a women that truly realizes what an extraordinary gift a child is? I belive that at this time, that answer can only be yes. That does not mean that this will always be the case. If she has a change of heart I would be the first to praise God for that miracle. Until then, I can only pray but I offer no quarter. Life is the war we are waging, and prayer our weapon. Unconditional conversion is victory.
I would rather answer for harsh words, if not untrue words, than to stand timidly by while a soul languishes in ignorance.

reply from: galen

that was not exactly what i asked...
Do you believe God made a mistake?

reply from: sander

Exactly why God said He would have us hot or cold and that the lukewarm He will SPEW OUT OF HIS MOUTH!

reply from: Faramir

Sometimes compassion can be "harsh" too and can have a greater effect in reaching the heart and mind.
If you would reread that thread and observe galen's comments, you would see a a very compassionate and encouraging response that does not overlook or excuse her previous errors.
That type of comment has a much better chance of reaching her.

reply from: Banned Member

God does not make mistakes. People do and can do evil things. Even the miracle of conception can be perverted into something evil, such as in the case of women that become pregnant with and/or with the express knowledge that they are going to abort the child. Do you think that God makes a mistake in these cases or do you suppose that even people can concieve children with the intent to do evil to them?
If this women is keeping this child, than this child and the mother needs our prayers and many prayers. This childs mother could one day be counseling them to have an abortion of their own. Until their is a conversion to life, the child is in danger of moral corruption and error or worse.

reply from: Faramir

Everyone on your *****' list is staunchly prolife.

reply from: nancyu

I've had it up to my ears with kindness and compassion for women who willingly, unregretfully, kill their children. I will be kind and compassionate when they start being kind and compassionate.

reply from: Faramir

I didn't expect to be cencored for saying "f r i g"

reply from: galen

Everyone on your *****' list is staunchly prolife.
-------------------------
Nancy i missed this post where was it..
if its on this topic.. i did not disagree with augustine i asked him to clarify a point..
i agree with diffrent people at different times depending on the topic.
i'v e even agreed with you on a point or 2 . my alegence is to my God and those women i support,and to their children both born and unborn, not to any one person here.

reply from: nancyu

Everyone on your *****' list is staunchly prolife.
----------------------
Nancy i missed this post where was it..
if its on this topic.. i did not disagree with augustine i asked him to clarify a point..
i agree with diffrent people at different times depending on the topic.
i'v e even agreed with you on a point or 2 . my alegence is to my God and those women i support,and to their children both born and unborn, not to any one person here.
Thanks. That is cool.

reply from: nancyu

Everyone on your *****' list is staunchly prolife.
What list?

reply from: nancyu

oh, that list nevermind.
(tired)

reply from: nancyu

But, no. I don't consider personhood with exceptions "staunchly pro life"

reply from: sander

It's an oxymoron (heavy on the moron) to say one is prolife but have exceptions.

reply from: joe

Faramir...These are the words of our Christ.

reply from: sander

Faramir...These are the words of our Christ.
He doesn't care. Jesus doesn't fit his theology. Nothing new, sadly.

reply from: joe

Faramir...These are the words of our Christ.
He doesn't care. Jesus doesn't fit his theology. Nothing new, sadly.
If Jesus doesn't fit into his theology he should not call himself a Christian or a Catholic.

reply from: sander

Faramir...These are the words of our Christ.
He doesn't care. Jesus doesn't fit his theology. Nothing new, sadly.
If Jesus doesn't fit into his theology he should not call himself a Christian or a Catholic.
YOU tell him...he'll pitch a living fit at me (he-he).
He has an answer for every Scripture given that doesn't fit what he's saying at the moment. Go figure.

reply from: Faramir

Jesus is the core of my theology.
Your pal yoda has been a bad influence on you and you have become a liar too.
What is it with the people here who are so anxious to call prolifers "proaborts" and to call Christians "false Christians" and the like?
And then make these low blows from behind an ignore button...

reply from: Faramir

Joe,
A text without a context is a pretext, meaning that you can take something out of context and twist it to mean whatever you want it to mean.
If you would read the first part of what you quoted in light of what preceded it (which you conveniently omitted), you would understand what He was referring to.
I hate to spoil your fun, but this verse does not give you the right to judge someone else's heart. That right and ability belongs to God alone.

reply from: Banned Member

Matthew Chapter 12
At that time Jesus was going through a field of grain on the sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "See, your disciples are doing what is unlawful to do on the sabbath." He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry, how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering, which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat? Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent? I say to you, something greater than the temple is here. If you knew what this meant, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned these innocent men. For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath." Moving on from there, he went into their synagogue. And behold, there was a man there who had a withered hand. They questioned him, "Is it lawful to cure on the sabbath?" so that they might accuse him. He said to them, "Which one of you who has a sheep that falls into a pit on the sabbath will not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable a person is than a sheep. So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath." Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and it was restored as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and took counsel against him to put him to death. When Jesus realized this, he withdrew from that place. Many (people) followed him, and he cured them all, but he warned them not to make him known. This was to fulfill what had been spoken through Isaiah the prophet: "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not contend or cry out, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory. And in his name the Gentiles will hope." Then they brought to him a demoniac who was blind and mute. He cured the mute person so that he could speak and see. All the crowd was astounded, and said, "Could this perhaps be the Son of David?" But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man drives out demons only by the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons." But he knew what they were thinking and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and no town or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your own people drive them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. How can anyone enter a strong man's house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house. Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. "Either declare the tree good and its fruit is good, or declare the tree rotten and its fruit is rotten, for a tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, "Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you." He said to them in reply, "An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. At the judgment, the men of Nineveh will arise with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and there is something greater than Jonah here. At the judgment the queen of the south will arise with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and there is something greater than Solomon here. "When an unclean spirit goes out of a person it roams through arid regions searching for rest but finds none. Then it says, 'I will return to my home from which I came.' But upon returning, it finds it empty, swept clean, and put in order. Then it goes and brings back with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they move in and dwell there; and the last condition of that person is worse than the first. Thus it will be with this evil generation." While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him. (Someone told him, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.") But he said in reply to the one who told him, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother."

reply from: sander

Oh, that the entire chapter would mean a thing to those who are willfully blind. But, it's good to read the Word of God, after all, God said it would not return to Him void.

reply from: Faramir

Some of you guys are simply playing God, and looking to scripture to excuse yourselves.

reply from: joe

Some of you guys are simply playing God, and looking to scripture to excuse yourselves.
It is better for you not to be a Christian...Faramir.
It is interesting to see your "scripture" define a serial killer as a "physician" and proclaim that a cold hearted child murderer might be doing more with what was given than those trying to protect that child. This perversion of justice and truth is not Christianity and does not represent love...you are playing God with this man made theology.
I really do believe that "pro-life" advocates that believe in this theology are more deadly to the unborn than the pro-aborts. The pro-aborts go the execute the child, while you Faramir hand the knife to the executioner.

reply from: Faramir

Better for me to NOT be a Christian?
I've never heard that one before.
This thread is about judging or condemning others from a Christian perspective. There is no dispute that abortion is objectively evil and should be stopped.

reply from: carolemarie

I have always wondered about Tiller. He is a Christian and he has a whole church that supports his "work" I think he is a deacon.....
It seems to me that Satan set him up good!
First his dad did illegal abortions, and Tiller became a Dr. like his dad and does legal abortions. Then a crazy prolifer shoots him, he goes to a church that supports him and makes him a deacon....
Talk about living under a curse and being set up to be who he is!
I really pray for him, that God will break through all the darkness that surrounds him.

reply from: churchmouse

Wow what a great debate you have going here on this forum.
I would like to throw my two cents in on a few things.
About judging.....
In John 7:24 He says, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
If someone steals, lies, commits adultery or murder, etc., the Christian can make a (righteous) moral judgment and say that the actions were morally wrong, and that these sins will have eternal consequences. But I have searched the scriptures and I do not see anywhere where we can judge hearts. In fact we cant even judge our own hearts.
I think what Faramir had to say is very true. "Only God sees the heart." and "You do not have the right or the ability to judge someone's heart." ...."you are not qualified to judge someone's heart, that prerogative is reserved for God alone."
We do however can judge actions. Read 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 These verses are interesting.
Paul is saying we are not responsible for judging unbelievers, but WE ARE REQUIRED TO JUDGE OUR FELLOW BELIEVERS. Plain and simple.
We should help those in sin, so that they might see the errors.....so that their spirit may be saved. From what I have read here the way to do it is debated. How did Jesus deal with sinners?
It seems that today people have really negative attitudes towards judging. It represents authority and law enforcement. A lot of people assume the primary function of judging is to punish the wicked. Scripturally this is not true. Punishing the wicked is secondary. The primary function of judging is to PROTECT THE RIGHTEOUS. Look at our justice system today. We bend over backward to protect the criminal and offer little to the victim. This is perverted thinking. It is NEVER in line with Gods will to deal with righteous as with the wicked.

We as Christian have every right to judge believers behavior and actions. We are not however responsible for the final evaluation of anyones character, including our own. (1 Corinthians 4:4)
God alone has this authority. We are responsible to judge conduct and relationships. We are not to base this on our feelings, or by the opinions of society or even by our own estimation of ourselves. We are to judge conduct and relationships by the CLEAR TEACHING AND STANDARDS REVEALED IN THE WORD OF GOD. No other source is necessary, the Bible alone is Gods
Word. We dont need to look to Priests, Pastors, evangelists for answers or interpretations......etc. We should pray, study on the Word alone and use it as our guide, our love letter from God about how we should live.

reply from: sander

That's what most of us have been saying all along, churchmouse.
We are to judge actions and circumstances, it's absurd not to.
To take "judge not lest ye be judge" out of context is setting up a personal theology not based on the whole consuel of God.

reply from: churchmouse

How do we go about talking to a sinner? We all are sinners so it should be easy.
Search the scriptures.
Augustine you had this to say.
If we have broken one sin we have broken them all. Take the Ten Commandments.......and review the list. Most of us have broken them all, so what makes anyone better than anyone else?
I can feel your emotion and pain when you talk about people that just dont get it. Personally I believe anyone that is pro-choice is pro-abortion. They are one in the same. But.......I can't judge their hearts God does that.
I believe the majority of Christians in America today are Christians in name only. They are not living the Christian Worldview 24-7. Did you ever see Left Behind? Even the pastor was left behind. So someone that shows good fruits might very well be unsaved. And someone that does not show good fruits might be saved. All things are possible with God. Paul killed Christians. By all apperances he looked like he certainly had an evil and hard heart. But look what God did in his life. God forgives. He forgave me for my abortion and he forgave Paul for his murderous acts. If he knows your heart is pure and you have repented, He will save you. I have been saved only by the grace of my Lord Jesus Christ.
I am sorry you feel so bad about women that have had an abortion. I had an abortion and today I am blessed to have two grown children. Christ changed my life and now I work in the Right to Life area trying to make a difference, witnessing Gods Word and sharing my abortion experience.
It is not up to you or me as to what someone deserves from God. God needs no help. My ways, your ways just might not be His. But we need to show love to those on the pro-choice side. We need to walk in the light so that they can see it. God will do the rest.
Read about the great sinners in the Bible and what God did in their lives.
I have not been here long enough to know where everyone is coming from and their stances....but I do know this. God changes lives. We might not understand how He does it, we might even disagree.......but we have to continue in obedience to HIm. And he commanded, not asked us to love.

reply from: Banned Member

Nope, I can't say that I have seen "Left Behind".
I am angry about abortion. I have looked people in the eye that have killed their own children. I don't have a hard heart with people that regret their sins. I have sinned like anyone else. But don't expect anything but tough love if you can look me in the eye and say, "I don't regret my abortion, and I think it's anyones right to have one." I am also not the most sympathetic person with people that want to condone peoples abortions who are not only not repentive, but advocating abortion. Abortion is not simply a personal sin and offense, it is murder, the taking of life. Murder is between a person and God as well as neighbor. I can pray for people but I can't forgive peoples mortal sins. I am not God, and no amount of love I have for that person is going to undo their sin. Compassion does not involve coddling someone either. You can't simply say, "Don't worry... it's okay... maybe someday you will figure out that abortion is killing." That just doesn't wash with me. When a person is going to take an obstinate brats position on something, they need to be treated like an obstinate brat. The weak approach I believe with something as severe as abortion simply and passively makes the person stronger in their sin. As I said, we are not simply talking about someone who has comitted abortion in silence and has not confronted it. We are talking about people that proclaim that killing another human being is the right thing to do. That is why I am so hard on some people here.

reply from: Faramir

You realize that abortion or being prochoice is not necessarily a "mortal sin" don't you?
So you not only do not have the right to judge, you can't even say for sure that a particular person who aborted even committed a mortal sin.

reply from: Banned Member

If you are going to suggest that the better portion of 1.5 million people don't have informed consciences that I will suggest that perhaps you live on the moon. Just a theory.
Killing a human being is a mortal sin. The Catholic Church in America for its part has been very clear on abortion for the last 60 years, long before Roe V Wade. Abortion takes the life of the most helpless and innocent.
Not having an informed conscience is not always an excuse for something as serious as murder. It is the persons right to inform their conscience and the more serious the sin, and obvious, the more it is their obligation to inform their conscience. People that are unable to inform their consciences that abortion is murder constitutes a very specific minority, too small a minority to allow for the kin of credit that you are willing to give people.
If 1.5 million people all go 100 MPH through a 35 MPH speed zone on the same street on the same day, they can't all claim to have not seen the sign.

reply from: Faramir

Three things are necessary for something to be a "mortal sin."
Neither you or I are capeable of judging with certainty all three.
There is no doubt that abortion is objectively evil.
There is no doubt that using condoms is objectively evil, even though some Christians do.
But there IS doubt as to whether the person has full knowledge that what he or she is doing is a greivous sin, and there IS doubt as to whether what they are doing is with full consent of the will.
I'm in no way saying abortion cannot be a mortal sin.
I'm just staying that you cannot point to one single person who aborted and say with certainty that they committed a mortal sin.

reply from: carolemarie

It seems that you just don't want to be kind to people who do things that you don't approve of. Everyone isn't you and doesn't share your world view or have the same background you have.
I am not Catholic, so I don't know what your church teaches, but I know that God desires all people to come to know Him, and to accept the sacrifice that Jesus made so they could be reconciled with God.
All of us have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. And if we say we have no sin, we lie.
The good news is that no matter who you are or what you have done, God wants to bless you and forgive you and make you His beloved. God is always kind and good to those who don't deserve it. We should be kind also. Tell the truth but be kind as you do so. You have no idea of the pain that any soul carries, and we don't need to add to it.
Saying mean things hardens the very heart you claim to want to change.

reply from: sander

Another well thought out post, with great truths.
To water down the act of aborting a helpless human being is, in some ways, worse than those who outright support it.
For those who should know better, yet find excuses galore, I have to wonder what their real agenda is and who and what they actually support.
Abortion is not a subjective act, it's a deliberate taking the life of another. No conscience will stand before God all mighty clear without knowing full well what they participated in and repented with utter sincerity.

reply from: Faramir

Another well thought out post, with great truths.
To water down the act of aborting a helpless human being is, in some ways, worse than those who outright support it.
For those who should know better, yet find excuses galore, I have to wonder what their real agenda is and who and what they actually support.
Abortion is not a subjective act, it's a deliberate taking the life of another. No conscience will stand before God all mighty clear without knowing full well what they participated in and repented with utter sincerity.
It would be cool if for once his "well thought out" words would convey actual Catholic thinking, instead of simply the usual bitterness and rationalizations of being a jackass towards others.
But it's no surprise sander would praise that.

reply from: 4given

I don't know who this post was to, but I agree.. and oftentimes truth is interpreted as "mean".

reply from: Faramir

I don't know who this post was to, but I agree.. and oftentimes truth is interpreted as "mean".
But if you use the truth as a club to get some kind of sick pleasure, as you sadly restort to doing yourself at times, it IS mean!

reply from: 4given

I don't get any pleasure out of the "truth" or my honest opinion. And to say that the truth about abortion- sharing it is a "sick pleasure".. well I would have to say that you are ill yourself. Address the statements in question, and I will do the same.

reply from: Faramir

I don't get any pleasure out of the "truth" or my honest opinion. And to say that the truth about abortion- sharing it is a "sick pleasure".. well I would have to say that you are ill yourself. Address the statements in question, and I will do the same.
You have been lashing out at others in a personal way.
For example, out of the blue you reposted a comment directed at me, and bolded the letters that said something to the effect that I "hand the knife to the abortionist" which is crazy and uncalled for.
Can you show something specific that demonstrates I do that? You can go through every one of my 1,000 plus posts and you won't find one that supports abortion rights, yet you are happy to jump on the bandwagon and get your licks in, because you see others doing it.
I have disagreed with some of the abusiveness, and some of the nastiness, and some of the dishonesty some engage in with their posts, but I have never disagreed with the idea that abortion is an evil which should stop and which should be illegal.
So if you want to be fair, and not just score points with your buddies here, then be specific next time you attack me as if I am an abortion sympatizer.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't know who this post was to, but I agree.. and oftentimes truth is interpreted as "mean".
It was directed to Augustine.
You can be kind in how you tell the truth. Even to people you don't like, although it takes restraint, I fail miserably with Fman. Which is why there can be our friend the ignore button.
Personally, if I know someone has had an abortion, I tend to be gentler and non-accusing, because they already know the truth. They just have to admit it to themselves. To embrace the notion that everything you believed was a lie, and come to realize that you made a decision to kill your child is very painful and you have to feel that your not being attacked to be able to do it. I want them to know this patient and loving God that wants to make it okay. I don't want to hammer them with accucations that make them harden their hearts. I have been there and done exactly that. If people call me a murderer, it just made me dig in my heels and fight back. But when they reasoned with me as a human being, it made the difference.
I started thinking about what they said, not how to verbal fight back. With no enemy, you have to confront your own actions.

reply from: Banned Member

Three things are necessary for something to be a "mortal sin."
Neither you or I are capeable of judging with certainty all three.
There is no doubt that abortion is objectively evil.
There is no doubt that using condoms is objectively evil, even though some Christians do.
But there IS doubt as to whether the person has full knowledge that what he or she is doing is a greivous sin, and there IS doubt as to whether what they are doing is with full consent of the will.
I'm in no way saying abortion cannot be a mortal sin.
I'm just staying that you cannot point to one single person who aborted and say with certainty that they committed a mortal sin.
Abortion is an objectively evil act. We know this. Truth is knowable. Not knowing the truth in this instance could be substantially a sin of omission. How can you have an abortion with the desire to not have a child, and not know that an abortion will cause you not to have a child? It is a paradox. You also cannot use contraception for the intent of not having a child, and not know that using contraception prevents conception or possibly destroys conceived life?
How are they to know to abort if they do not know what abortion does? Do they wonder why they have no child after an abortion? Or are they relieved that the child will be no more a burden or concern? You Faramir must be there to tell them, just as I am there to tell them. Rather than tell your neighbor that he or she is languishing in ignorance would you prefer to provide an alibi for their ignorance?
In the cases of people that have had abortions, and do not repent upon being told that abortion is evil, and instead take evil for good; we cannot say that their consciences are uninformed or that they do not have consent of the will, when they say that they would do the same even knowing the difference.
The guilty cannot feign ignorance if they are not ignorant. I have never said that I would have every woman punished that has an abortion. Justice cannot be blind. But I cannot say that some, or many might be required to answer to justice. Some may. How can you minister to those in prison, if their are none in prison? Compassion for those imprisoned is not for the wrongly imprisoned, but for the guilty as well.
I think of the two theives that were crucified with Christ. One mocked the Lord, daring him to save himself if he could do so. The other admitted that he was guilty, and that he deserved the punishment that was being administered. The excuses for sin are many.
I am also reminded of another story from Abraham Lincoln about how a man of importance once visited a prison, with each next man giving a long sad story of how he had been wrongly imprisoned and had been framed for the crime. Finally the visitor came to a different sort of man, who said that he was guilty of the crime that he had been accused of and that he deserved his imprisonment. The visitor turned to the warden and exclaimed that this man should be set loose at once, before he currupted all the other good innocent men.

reply from: Faramir

You're dancing around this Augustine. Consult a 3rd grade Catechism for clarification or talk to a priest.

reply from: 4given

I do not mean to make it personal. I am just being honest with my questions. I am sure that they don't need you to help them out if they disagree with my statements. I handle posters individually and expect the same.
After reading through your many posts.. all the weak justifications girls use to abort their children.. It makes me question your sincerity or motives.
That isn't true. I address posters individually. Apparently you have offended others as well.
Likewise...
How rude of you. It isn't about "scoring" anything. I hope you realize that my time here isn't for the "buddies". It really is to grow and learn. Because you have an issue with others here.. that essentially is your problem. I want to learn from them- those active in their communities. I suggest you do so as well. You summed it up yourself w/ the "abortion sympathizer". bit..

reply from: Banned Member

Does a woman not know that if she has abortion when she is pregnant that she will not have a child after?
Could you provide a single instance of a pregnant woman having an abortion without the express purpose not being pregnant after the abortion?
How can she expect that anyone will believe that she did not know that abortion would cause the child to cease to be?
Does a women who knows she is pregnant, have an abortion, and not know what an abortion is?
Does a woman have an abortion for any other reason than to cease to be pregnant?
Does a woman know that she is pregnant, and not believe that the outcome will be a newborn human life?

reply from: Faramir

I don't know and you don't know. That's why we cannot say for sure she committed a mortal sin.
And there is also the issue of "full consent of the will." If she is desperate and feels trapped or pressured, it would make her less culpable, and for that reason it might not be a mortal sin.

reply from: Banned Member

You confuse light for judgement and compassion for darkness. I would call good for good and evil for evil, while you would allow them to remain in the darkness and say that nothing can be known.
You my friend are a true agnostic.

reply from: Faramir

And you have totally ignored Catholic doctrine.
Are you really a practicing Catholic?
BTW, a Catholic cannot be an agnostic by definition, so you're really grasping at straws with that ad hominem.

reply from: Banned Member

Their sins may not have the full consent of their will but would you provide them with the full consent of yours?

reply from: Faramir

Their sins may not have the full consent of their will but would you provide them with the full consent of yours?
I don't understand your question.

reply from: Banned Member

http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=4086&enterthread=y

reply from: Faramir

No thanks. I'm not going to do your homework.
Make some kind of reasonable explaination, and while you're at it retract that ridiculous comment that I'm an "agnostic" or prove it.

reply from: churchmouse

Hey I'm with ya on this one. We need to stand up for the innocent children in the womb. We need to use tough love and to tell it as it is. Abortion is premeditated murder, nothing else. In my opinion those that say they are pro-choice are in fact pro-abortion. To the child in the womb it does not matter what positions people fight over, there is only one that matters, PRO-LIFE. I have gone up against some pretty strong people that hate the label and bash me for using it. I say to bad, if the shoe fits wear it. I always ask them.......is there something wrong with abortion? If so then why would they condone someone being killed.
That is ok, as long as you walk in the light of Gods Word. I always think about what Christ would do in the situations I get myself into. How would He handle it, what would He say? I have a temper and sometimes get really emotional.
I was in this little bistro with my daughter one day last year and overheard a conversation at the table next to us. It's a small place and the tables are really close together. A discussion was going on between a waitress and a man who had had a little to much vino, if you know what I mean. He was ripping Bush apart and praising the Clinton Administration. My 26 year old daughter looked at me and said, "Please Mom don't". LOL
She knows me to well. He made eye contact with me, I made sure of it........and he said what do you think? I think God put those words in his mouth. I began to talk about Clintons pro-abortion stance and the fact that he supports PBA. He looked me square in the eye and asked me if I was one of those Jesus Freaks. I said, Amen, that indeed I was. Praise the LORD. I asked if he was one of those Humanists that live by their own rules. LOL Anyway he started bashing Christians and said he also was pro-choice. I said then your pro-death and condone innocent lives that are slaughtered in the womb. The waitress (about 23 years old) jumped in to give her two cents. She also was pro-choice. I said then you condone the murder and she said........YES I DO. By this time my daughter said, "see ya later" and left laughing. She knew what was coming.

I must admit that I had never come across someone before that was so proud of the pro-killing position. She wore it like a badge of honor. She proceeded to tell me that she was going to college to be a elementary school teacher. I said, God help you. He was drunk, she was satan, I'm sure lol......but I stood my ground and really God helped me make fools of them both. She had no idea about fetal development and I pinned her down on every issue. It was wonderful and when I left I said, I would pray for them both. They said don't bother. I said I still planned to, even though I knew it would upset them. LOL

But you can forgive and that is something we are commanded to do. You are commanded to love and forgive.
Did Christ coddle? He said it like it was and so should we. How did He do it? How did He act towards sinners? Did He swear at them, did He use profanity? After I talk with people and share information, I quietly ask God to change their heart towards abortion. I say, God I planted the seed, its up to you now."
Last month a young girl probably around 20 years old came up to our booth. She was with a couple of friends and was really defensive and I could tell she wanted to pick a fight. I stood my ground and was as nice as I could be. I handed her information and she tossed it on the table. She said, I am pro-choice and I am proud to have had two abortions. She said she would continue having them......... Get this.........because children shouldn't have children. LOL I said, children shouldn't have sex either but she was doing a very good job of doing that. She ran and I mean ran. We cant do everything and god does not expect us to.
Jesus came up against all sorts of people and He held His own and did it with love. We have to try to do it His way.
I am not Catholic and I believe there is only one sin that keeps someone from heaven and spending eternity with God, and that one sin is denying Christ. So we aren't on the same page on that one. I do not look to a particular church for the truth, I look to the scriptures themselves particularly what Christ said and did. And Christ said, salvation is available to those that repent, and ask Him to be their personal Savior. I believe anyone can be changed by the Holy Spirit.
I totally agree with

reply from: Faramir

Do you think that calling prochoicers "murderers" repeatedly helps soften their hearts to be more receptive to the truth?

reply from: Banned Member

Pro-choice advocates need to hear that abortion is murder as often as we can say it. People that do not know what abortion is need to hear it as well. When people understand that abortion is murder, and not the action of simple confusion or moral ambiguity, then they will change what they believe about abortion and change what they say about abortion. Many people today do not think of abortion as murder. That needs to change and we need to change it.

reply from: Faramir

Yet you stop short of condemning contraception, knowing full well it is part of the abortion problem.
Why is that?
And how am I an "agnostic" or do you refuse to own up to that stupid remark?

reply from: sander

That was worth the time coming on this forum tonight!
Thanks for sharing.
It should give us all courage to speak when God opens the door.
The Bible says, "how will the know, if no one is sent"?
You were indeed sent there for that moment. They will either repent or will stand before God with no excuse.

reply from: Banned Member

I am not going to deliberately going to create division for the sake of division to prove any philosophical superiority where there is the greater opportunity for saving life. There are some differences between all of hear, but I would choose not to be the wedge or the hammer that drives it deeper.
The killing of the unborn child is murder. That is the first and most important reality that must be confronted at large.

reply from: Faramir

I am not going to deliberately going to create division for the sake of division to prove any philosophical superiority where there is the greater opportunity for saving life. There are some differences between all of hear, but I would choose not to be the wedge or the hammer that drives it deeper.
The killing of the unborn child is murder. That is the first and most important reality that must be confronted at large.
I was out of line.
We definatley should cut people slack if they believe differently than we do.
We should give them every benefit of the doubt that they believe as they do in good faith, and are doing the best they can with what they know.

reply from: churchmouse

The position is the same. They do nothing to protect the unborn child, they prefer to look away. Sometimes people need to hear the truth, and the truth comes as sharp as a double edged sword. If they are upset about the label.....they just might think about it a bit.
I agree 100%.

reply from: Faramir

The position is the same. They do nothing to protect the unborn child, they prefer to look away. Sometimes people need to hear the truth, and the truth comes as sharp as a double edged sword. If they are upset about the label.....they just might think about it a bit.
I agree 100%.
I think the "truth" can often be used to serve the ego of the person who weilds it. The truth might be that abortion kills a baby, but it is not necessarily a truth that the person advocating abortion rights believes it, especially young women in desperate situations, and especially postabortive women.
Please see my post about sidewalk counseling--an effective, truthful, but compassionate approach.
And although abortion is an injustice, to call it "murder" is a stretch, since it is lawful, and since for there to be a murder there must be an intent to kill a human person. If either of those are lacking, it is not murder by definition.
It is killing--it is an injustice--but it is not murder.
If it IS murder, then you should be calling the police and have some people arrested.

reply from: Banned Member

I think the "truth" can often be used to serve the ego of the person who weilds it. The truth might be that abortion kills a baby, but it is not necessarily a truth that the person advocating abortion rights believes it, especially young women in desperate situations, and especially postabortive women.
Please see my post about sidewalk counseling--an effective, truthful, but compassionate approach.
And although abortion is an injustice, to call it "murder" is a stretch, since it is lawful, and since for there to be a murder there must be an intent to kill a human person. If either of those are lacking, it is not murder by definition.
It is killing--it is an injustice--but it is not murder.
If it IS murder, then you should be calling the police and have some people arrested.
Faramir, and to others, I am going to suggest something that I hope you will not find offensive. You talk about the truth being used to serve ones ego, and I am certain that this assertion is at least vaguely aimed at me. While not in the company of pro-lifers, proclaiming the truth about abortion draws even in the most polite manner draws out some of the most vile remarks imaginable. One is lucky to survive such blasts with their dignity in tact, to think nothing of ones ego being served.
When you speak of young women that are in desparate situations. Have you talked to many of young women these days or young people even? What I am going to suggest is a generational gap, some between your age, and people my age. I work around and see many young men and women. I know what they do and how they act, and how they spend their time. The time of the young innocent naive woman is past. Many are just as involved in the weekend sex culture as the men have always been and some women have been. These are young men and women that think its actually funny to go out, get drunk and have sex with wach other. And if the contraception doesn't work, assuming they are capable of remembering to use it, and they should get pregnant, well it's not really any problem at all. They'll just get it fixed, with not more moral qualms about getting it fixed than they would about getting their car fixed only probably with more efficiency.
Abortion is murder, and if you suggest that abortion is murder to these young people, they will tell you where to get off quickly. Proclaiming the truth, if they can even still recognize such a thing as truth, is anything but an ego inflater. They tell you you are old, out of touch and that what you need to do is go out and have some fun yourself. This is what I refer to when you or others provide excuses for abortion seekers as providing an alibi for their ignorance.
As long as you keep pretending that abortion is not murder, they will keep pretending that they don't know.
Abortion is murder because of what it is, not what the faulty laws of lawmakers says it is. A law that is immoral is no law at all. So how do we treat those that are legally protected from being legally accused of murder? We call their crime murder as often as we can. We make abortion ugly, unspeakable and something to be shunned. No one ever says that they are missing a days work to get an abortion. Abortion evokes shame as such an act should evoke shame.
I think that it is time that you realized or learned that abortion is now in a different age, and that people view sex and abortion much differently. The haze of what an abortion is, and of what sex is has cleared. Kids now have detailed knowledge of sex and abortion. Most have probably even seen abortion images before they ever have sex. To keep making excuses for them in this day and age, just makes those that make excuses look rather silly.

reply from: Faramir

I'll think about what you said Augustine, and see if I can get more information and a clearer picture of those who abort, because I see them as scared, young, clueless women.

reply from: sander

If I had to power to make this a sticky, I would.
What those of us who have been on the front lines, so to speak, since 1973 know and still know, is that the people who framed the abortion debate KNEW this would be a battle of WORDS!
That's why I've stuck by my guns all these years and have not been persuaded to ease up on the terminology.
It bothers me to see those who (nothing personal) are not aware of this little known fact play into the hands of the proabort powers that be.
While prolifers are tripping over themselves not to offend and to use tactics that, on the surface, seem kind, the proaborts are gleeful that their strategy worked then and is still working.

reply from: nancyu

It is not lawful.
Yes you should.

reply from: Faramir

It is not lawful.
Yes you should.
Maybe I should be calling the men in the white coats.

reply from: nancyu

Because you support the idea that abortion is legal. It is not. If as you say an unborn child is a person. How could it be legal, in any sense of the word, to kill them?
And you are calling me crazy.

reply from: Faramir

Because you support the idea that abortion is legal. It is not. If as you say an unborn child is a person. How could it be legal, in any sense of the word, to kill them?
And you are calling me crazy.
I didn't call you crazy. But you've been making a lot of nutty, irrelevant, and repetitious posts.
I don't support that abortion is illegal. I want it to be illegal. I believe in personhood from conception, but presently the law does not agree with me.

reply from: Banned Member

You are not obliged to respect or even acknowledge an unjust law that allows for the murder of the unborn. Any law that allows for the killing of the unborn person is a lie. Any law that does not respect and acknowledge the personhood of the unborn in essense, does not exist. Contemplate that for a time and see if it does not make sense. It is mind opening and will open your whole perspective on defending the unborn.
We as pro-lifers must not only play by the rules, but by the correct set of rules. Then when you speak of abortion, you can speak as if a law truly has been broken.

reply from: Faramir

You are not obliged to respect or even acknowledge an unjust law that allows for the murder of the unborn. Any law that allows for the killing of the unborn person is a lie. Any law that does not respect and acknowledge the personhood of the unborn in essense, does not exist. Contemplate that for a time and see if it does not make sense. It is mind opening and will open your whole perspective on defending the unborn.
We as pro-lifers must not only play by the rules, but by the correct set of rules. Then when you speak of abortion, you can speak as if a law truly has been broken.
Of course the law is unjust, but try calling the cops every time you hear about an abortion. Nobody will be arressted.

reply from: Banned Member

Of course you are not going to call the police. But when someone asks you what you think about abortion, tell them what you really think. Tell them it's murder.

reply from: Faramir

Of course you are not going to call the police. But when someone asks you what you think about abortion, tell them what you really think. Tell them it's murder.
Would that mean all who abort are murderers?
If we scratch the minor technicality that it is not unlawful, what about intent?

reply from: Banned Member

The intent is immaterial. The effect of abortion is still murder. The unborn person is dead when aborted. Whether the person intends murder, or learns that they have comitted murder after the fact does not change the outcome and reality of the event.

reply from: sander

The intent is immaterial. The effect of abortion is still murder. The unborn person is dead when aborted. Whether the person intends murder, or learns that they have comitted murder after the fact does not change the outcome and reality of the event.
Well said.
But, do you ever feel like you're banging your head against a wall?
I know I do, but we must forge on with the truth, nevertheless.

reply from: Faramir

The intent is immaterial. The effect of abortion is still murder. The unborn person is dead when aborted. Whether the person intends murder, or learns that they have comitted murder after the fact does not change the outcome and reality of the event.
The intent matters in the law, and it also matters in the religious realm, especially in our own Church.
If there is no intent to kill a person, there is no murder.
I prefer to say that abortion is the unjust taking of a human life.
It is always in injustice, but at least that allows for the deficiencies in the law and in the intent.
The only way I could in good conscience call a particular abortion a murder and a particular aborter a murderer, would be if it were clear that she knew and believed the embryo or fetus was a person, was of sound mind, and still went ahead with the abortion.
If she aborted because of ignorance or duress, I could not call it a murder, as far as she is concerned. Possibly I could as far as the abortionist is concerned.

reply from: Banned Member

The intent matters in the law, and it also matters in the religious realm, especially in our own Church.
If there is no intent to kill a person, there is no murder.
I prefer to say that abortion is the unjust taking of a human life.
It is always in injustice, but at least that allows for the deficiencies in the law and in the intent.
The only way I could in good conscience call a particular abortion a murder and a particular aborter a murderer, would be if it were clear that she knew and believed the embryo or fetus was a person, was of sound mind, and still went ahead with the abortion.
If she aborted because of ignorance or duress, I could not call it a murder, as far as she is concerned. Possibly I could as far as the abortionist is concerned.
Negligent homicide is still homicide. It is still the killing of a human person.
Again, how can you have an abortion and not know that it is with the intent of their being no child after the abortion?
The unjust taking of a human life. Murder is the unjust taking of a human life. I think that what you would prefer to think of it as is some kind of moral accident. Such a thing does not exist. If you know you are pregnant, you know that you are going to have a baby. If you know that having an abortion causes you to not have a baby, you must know that that baby has died. Every person that is pregnant that has an abortion knows that they are going to have a baby if they don't have an abortion. That is why they have the abortion, to get rid of the child.
There is no ignorance about abortion. Abortion ends the possibility of a pregnant women having the child she is pregnant with. The only thing is negligent here though is the number of abortions that actually occur because of ignorance or durress.
I would dare say that 99.99% of all abortions are the result the premeditated and willful desire to end the life of the child in the womb so that the woman in question does not give birth.

reply from: Faramir

Then let's go back to contraception.
Is the use of contraception objectively evil?
It is objectively immoral?
You should answer yes to both, but why would it be a mortal sin for me and not for Protestant?

reply from: 4life

The intent is immaterial. The effect of abortion is still murder. The unborn person is dead when aborted. Whether the person intends murder, or learns that they have comitted murder after the fact does not change the outcome and reality of the event.
Well said.
But, do you ever feel like you're banging your head against a wall?
I know I do, but we must forge on with the truth, nevertheless.
Do you know the meanings of the words "courage" and "integrity."
If not, look them up please, and then see if you exemplify either by attacking and goading from behind an "iggy button."
I think it's pathetic and cowardly.

reply from: Banned Member

No, let's stay with the argument that you are losing.
Banning contraception is not going to end abortion. Get with the program Faramir. Keep up please.

reply from: Faramir

No, let's stay with the argument that you are losing.
Banning contraception is not going to end abortion. Get with the program Faramir. Keep up please.
Is it a mortal sin for a Catholic to use contraception?
Is it a mortal sin for non Catholics to use contraception?
I'm making a point about intent and not about whether ending contraception would end abortion.

reply from: Banned Member

Abortion is the intent of killing an unborn child. The death of an unborn child is only intent and desired outcome of having an abortion.

reply from: Faramir

Then intent of an abortion is to end a pregnancy.
We call it an injustice because by ending the pregnancy it causes the death of a person.
If there is ignorance that there is such a death or if the aborting woman is acting out of fear or pressure, she is not a murderer, in spite of the death of the child. If you need to attach some kind of legal definition, even though inappropriate since abortion is legal, "manslaughter" would be a lot more accurate than murder.
Now I will answer the question that you refused to answer.
The practice of contraception by those who are ignorant of Church teaching renders them less culpable, and therefore they are not willingly cooperating with evil. It is not a mortal sin for them, since they do not have an evil intent, since they don't understand fully the reasons why it is evil.
Get the point?
The bottom line is that I cannot in good conscience call a woman who has a aborted a "murderer." It's innacurate and unfair.
But it would make me feel good, I suppose, if I were into browbeating others.

reply from: Banned Member

Abortion is murder Faramir. Abortion is murder. Abortion is murder.
Abortion does not end a pregancy, it ends a human life. Women have abortions to end the human life they do not want to be responsible for, and that they choose not to care for or even acknowledge.
And you just won't get that through your head.
Stop providing alibis and excuses for those that kill 4000 human beings each and every day. They are guilty of killing human beings. Their business is killing human beings.
As someone once said...
All the customer needs is a little encouragement.
The pregnant women needs to get rid of ger child. The abortion provider calls it health care. You would say that she is confused. You and the abortion provider have worked together to provide her with social amnesty; a moral cloak in which to hide from the truth; an medical explanation and a believable excuse. She has the abortion and the child dies. Murder has been committed. Those that work to cover up a murder are called accomplices and accessaries.
I choose to be neither.

reply from: Faramir

You're taking the cheap way out by linking me to the abortionist, especially since I abhor his "practice."
I think it is our job to educate these women. I don't thing that ignorance should be a perpetual excuse, and I don't think we should be looking for excuses to give these women in advance of their abortions.
They should NOT be encouraged.
But just like the contraceptor is not guilty if he or she does not understand the immorality of it (and you refuse to acknowledge this point), the aborter is less culpable as well if she does not understand that it kills her child. She is also less culpable if being forced by her parents or boyfriend or by monetary pressures.
You have not been addressing actual points I have made but keep coming back with generalities, so I need to nail you down specifically so I understand your position:
Is every woman who aborts a murderer?
Or to put it in the past tense, has every woman who has aborted committed murder?
Would you call a post abortive woman a murderer? (In all cases, some cases, or not at all).

reply from: Faramir

Here's what our Pope said. "These people" refer to postabortive women.
"The Church has the duty to be close to these people with love and delicacy."
He didn't call them murderers. Should he have?

reply from: sander

The intent is immaterial. The effect of abortion is still murder. The unborn person is dead when aborted. Whether the person intends murder, or learns that they have comitted murder after the fact does not change the outcome and reality of the event.
Well said.
But, do you ever feel like you're banging your head against a wall?
I know I do, but we must forge on with the truth, nevertheless.
Do you know the meanings of the words "courage" and "integrity."
If not, look them up please, and then see if you exemplify either by attacking and goading from behind an "iggy button."
I think it's pathetic and cowardly.
Really, faramir, I'd never would have guessed.
At least I manage to say what I want without hiding my idenity, what you do amounts to nothing more than a lie...tsk tsk.
You're too funny in a not funny way, of course.

reply from: Faramir

The intent is immaterial. The effect of abortion is still murder. The unborn person is dead when aborted. Whether the person intends murder, or learns that they have comitted murder after the fact does not change the outcome and reality of the event.
Well said.
But, do you ever feel like you're banging your head against a wall?
I know I do, but we must forge on with the truth, nevertheless.
Do you know the meanings of the words "courage" and "integrity."
If not, look them up please, and then see if you exemplify either by attacking and goading from behind an "iggy button."
I think it's pathetic and cowardly.
Really, faramir, I'd never would have guessed.
At least I manage to say what I want without hiding my idenity, what you do amounts to nothing more than a lie...tsk tsk.
You're too funny in a not funny way, of course.
I wonder how else to reach a coward who attacks and cheerleads from behind an ignore button.
Someone please ask her if she has any suggestions.

reply from: Banned Member

I am not taking the cheap way out. You say you abhor abortion. That's fairly strong language for something you will not even call murder. Educate? Educate means telling them that abortion is murder. They already know that abortion is the taking of a life. They know that abortion kills the unborn child. What else would you educate them about? The only perpetual excuse is the one that you are giving them. Aside from your excuse, which is not even a good one, the vast majoity of women that have abortions don't even fake some kind of apology. Others proclaim their abortions proudly. Other can produce remarks such as...
Pro-choice means that if I think a fetus is a revolting maggot, I can have it removed from my body. I'm allowed to think it is a revolting maggot. It's my CHOICE. I can believe it is an alien life form that is sucking out the nutrients from my body. I'm not asking anyone else to believe this -- but YUCK. Fetuses look revolting. They are slimy, little prawns invading a uterus. Yuck Yuck Yuck.
Yes, I think that very many that abort their own children are murderers because the law lets them be murderers. The act of abortion is murder. Abortion is a type of murder. The circumstances surrounding abortion do not make it less of a murder. Yes, every woman that has an abortion has committed murder. Post abortive woman? as opposed to what, a pre-abortive woman? Abortion is abortion. Abortion is murder.

reply from: sander

You were too young to have entered the abortion debate in the early 70's. Pity, because you get it. You get that this is a battle of words, to which the abortion proponents stated from the beginning.
Pity because your loud clarion call to speak the truth was needed.
But, I thank God we have your voice now.

reply from: Faramir

Can you please define "murder"?
You said that "VERY MANY that abort their own children are murderers." Why did you say "very many" and not say "all"?
Is a clueless 15 year old who is pressured by her boyfriend and parents to get an abortion, a "murderer"?
If you were at an abortion clinic, would you yell "murderer" at the women going into the clinic?
Can you tell me why people outside the Catholic Church do not commit a mortal sin when embracing the objective evil of contraception? You seem to be afraid to answer this one, and your answer IS relevant to this discussion.
If we have to tell them this, then they don't know it. If they don't know it, then the intent is not there. If there is no intent, it cannot be murder.
Please provide the defintion of murder and demonstrate how it applies in ALL cases to ALL women who abort.

reply from: Banned Member

Is this what this comes down to? What is the definition of murder? Murder is when one human person kills another human person. I would remiss to point out that the comandment Thou shall not kill, does not say, Thou shall not murder. Willfully killing another human being is the grave sin. It is not the circumstances of the killing that make it a sin. The willful killing of the unborn human being is killing and by extention murder. The mother that kills her child, has killed her child by her desire for that child to be no more. That she can rationalize that abortion is not murder is not really material to the discussion.
There is no argument that can show that a person who has an abortion does not know that the desired effect is to not have a child.
Most murderers deny that they have killed and murdered. I say very many because unlike you I do not paint every person with the same brush. You would say that all women that abort are in ignorance about their actions because you think that someone who knows that killing is wrong would never kill. I would say that not all that abort are confused or pressured. In fact I would say that most are neither ignorant, confused or pressured. Some women who know that killing is wrong and that abortion is killing, would still have the abortion anyways. I am willing to consider the emotional immaturity of women who have abortions under stressful situations as it pertains to their guilt. You on the other hand seem completely unwilling to acknowledge any guilt on the part of any woman. It is not any kind of compassion to confirm one in their own sins.
Far from being pressured many I am sure and some certainly never tell anyone that they are pregnant. In fact they are probably far less likely to tell someone who they know would discourage them from having an abortion, once they have decided to have an abortion. If there is however an intent to abort, there is an intent to kill. Women have abortions because they know if they do not have abortions they will have babies.
All who abort have committed murder. Whether they acknowledge that or not does not lessen their guilt for the actual action. How are you to minister to that person, and provide any kind of love or compassion if you are not first honest with them about what they have done?

reply from: Faramir

And your point is? I am totally opposed to abortion because it kills a person unjustly.
Of course the Catechism fleshes out the 5th commandment and discusses the forms of killing, including abortion. But of course, just as with contraception, the Church fully informs its members about sinful behavior. Sometimes those on the outside can be excused because of lack of knowledge--just like you excuse those outside the Church who practice the grave offense of contraception (which plays a large role in our abortion culture).
Yes, words have meanings. We don't get to make up our own as a rule, do we? Some people would say that meat eaters are murderers. Would you please provide a REAL definition of murder?
When a policeman shoots and kills a crook who is shooting at him, is it murder? That fits your defintion above. When a hunter thinks his buddy is a turkey and shoots and kills him, is it murder? This fits your definition above. Is a 12 year old girl who has been raped by her father and is forced to abort, a murderer?
The key word is "willfully." That's what it boils down to with my disagreement with you. You can't read their hearts and minds, and you don't know whether they had a defect of knowledge or an undue influence on their will. That's why even though abortion is objectively evil, it is not necessarily a mortal sin, as just about any 3rd grade Catholic gradeschooler could tell you from basic Church teachings in the Catechism.
So it is BS for you to say that you know that the woman wants her "child to be no more." You don't know what she knows and you don't know what she wants.
So are the women who have "emotional immaturity" murderers?
I'm not at all unwilling to acknowledge guilt. What I AM acknowledging is that I DON'T KNOW what is going on in their minds and hearts and NEITHER DO YOU!
I don't by any means think all women who abort are ingorant an innocent.
But I cannot presume to know who they are and then point my finger at them and say "murderer."
That staement is total bs and your own wishful thinking unless you can prove the following under all circumstances:
1) That there was an unlawful killing of a human being.
2) That there was an INTENT to kill a human being.
Instead of preaching sermons and making up your own defintions, prove it. You already cannot prove number 1, and that weighs heavily on number 2, because many of these women have been deceived and betrayed by the law.
All who have aborted have participated in a grave injustice. If they do not understand that, it most certainly DOES lessen their guilt. If you think approaching a postabortive woman with the words, "you are a murderer" is the first step to ministering to them with love and compassion, you are an idiot, and I hope you were not seriously implying that is what needs to be done.

reply from: Banned Member

Faramir,
Your entire last post demonstrates that you are no longer even worth responding to. You are being obstinate and willfully ignorant at best. I think that in truth, you are deceptive in your nature, depriving these discussions of truth and meaning and preferring abstractions to reality. You pay empty lip service to the unborn. You should spend your time in some effort more suitable to your talents and abilities because you are wasting your time and others being anywhere near the pro-life movement.

reply from: Faramir

What happened?
Did you look at the Catechism and at a dictionary?
I'm not willfully ignorant in the slightest. Obviously I don't understand the meaning of the word "murder." Please provide a legitimate and thorough definition so that I can be informed.

reply from: Banned Member

What I AM acknowledging is that I DON'T KNOW what is going on in their minds and hearts and NEITHER DO YOU!
If that is how you judge (excuse me, interpret) murder, than no murder would ever be tried in a court of law.

reply from: Banned Member

You Faramir are not truly opposed to abortion, which in its nature is a murderous act. If a man cannot know what is in another mans heart, than murder would be legally unprovable. Murder is a provable action. If a person has an abortion, they an only be having an abortion to end the life of the unborn child in their womb. There is no other reason to have an abortion.
Murder is the willful killing of another innocent human being. Abortion is such a crime. Abortion is a crime; murder; the killing of an innocent human being.
The use of animals for food can in no way be compared to abortion, which is the killing of an unborn innocent human being and person. To believe that killing an animal for food is murder is as erroneous as the belief that abortion is not murder.
When someone such as a police officer uses deadly force, it is to defend innocent life; his own or that of others who may be killed. When a person is accidentally killed, it is just that, an accident. Abortion is not an accident. It is the willful taking of a human life. Abortion is murder.
Rape is not an acceptable reason to kill a human being in turn. Such a death would be a killing of retribution and yes, murder. It is however very unlikely that a 12 year old would be able to make that decision to have an abortion so whoever makes that decision would be guilty of the killing of an innocent human life.
Agaian, if you were to hold to the notion that proof of murder would have to require knowing a persons heart, than any and all murder, short of that murder which is openly confessed, would be virtually unprovable in any court of law.
There is no other reason for a woman to seek or have an abortion other than to willfully end the life of her own unborn child. There is no other reason for a woman to have an abortion. If that woman is mentally incapable of knowing right from wrong, whoever makes that decision on her behalf is guilty of ending the childs life.
If a woman is willing to have am invasive precedure to have the child that is growing inside her killed and removed, and can beyond reasonable doubt conclude that her intent is to kill. Men have been sentenced to life in prison, and even death with less evidence being present than is available in an abortion case.
Abortion is murder. It can be logically proven based upon available imperical evidence and data.

reply from: galen

Faramir... why belabour this point? Your own Church doctrine calls abortion murder... it does say we should forgive women ... but it does call this death murder and it does not make distiction for age , sex, disability etc.

reply from: Faramir

Where does the church say that women who abort are murderers or that it is right to call them such?
Please provide the documentation.

reply from: Faramir

You are either stupid, blind, or a liar.
I am opposed to abortion for any reason. An abortion causes the unjust death of a human person. Just because I don't buy your load of bs, it doesn't mean you can mischaracterize my position.
Of course murder is provable. How can you prove murder, though, if the act you are calling murder is legal? How can you not excuse the women who are deceived by a law that is supposed to instruct but instead betrays?
There are plenty of reasons to have an abortion. You refuse to acknowledge motives because you want to remain in a superior moral position and think of yourslef as better than the "murderers."
Tell me how you would prove that a 15 year old girl knew that she was ending the life of her child. Tell me how you would prove that she wasn't deceived by the law and those around her. Tell me how you would prove that she wasn't pressured into doing it.
This business about "knowing someone's heart" has to do with judging someone, finger pointing, condemning someone, feeling superior, etc. But if you want to be legalistic, fine. ABORTION IS LEGAL. THEREFORE IT IS NOT MURDER. MURDER IS AN ILLEGAL ACT.
And motives certainly would be part of the legal process anyway. If abortion were illegal, knowledge and intent would play a huge part in charges and in sentencing.
7 is the age of reason. So a 12 year old in your eyes should be just as worthy of condemnation, and you should be able to have your jollies with her too, and call her a murderer. Why stop at 12? Or do you think that maybe her ignorance and her emotional state gets her of the hook?
That's baloney. Intent can be proven and is proven in court.
But how do you prove intent to declare someone a murderer when the act is legal?
How about demonstrating it, then? I've asked for a definition and I've asked you to prove it, and you keep preaching sermons, but you don't address the points I've raised.
I say it can be demonstrated to be an unjust act in all circumstances. It takes the life of a human person. It is wrong.
But I cannot allow myself the luxury of calling a post abortive women a "murderer"--as much fun as that must be in a very sick way--unitl I can prove that what she did was with full knowledge, full consent of the will, and was against the law.
You seem to me to be an angry man who is looking for a place to hang his hatred, and you have a raft of excuses, and you dance around all the points by preaching sermons, but come up with no specifics.

reply from: Banned Member

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."
"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."
Here is the documentation.

reply from: Banned Member

Faramir, I have concluded that you are nothing more than a moral relativising abortion enabler.

reply from: Faramir

I have concluded that you are a pompous ass who doesn't know his rear end from a hole in the ground, and who is looking for any excuse to feel morally superior.
And you still have not provided a definiton of murder.
If you're going to preach the Catechism, preach it all. And then make a citizen's arrest of someone who aborted and take her and your catechism to the sheriff and have her booked. If you've got the goods to prove it is murder, DO SOMETHING and get those girls thrown in jail!
I will do whatever I can to see that abortion is one day illegal, and I will support in any way I can those who are saving lives today.
But I do not support your sanctimony and your using this cause an excuse to condemn others and elevate yourself. That sucks, and that makes prolifers look like weenies.

reply from: galen

Where does the church say that women who abort are murderers or that it is right to call them such?
Please provide the documentation.
------------------------------------------
here is a link w/ more links in the article...http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/aug/07082005.html
one who commits murder= murderer.....

reply from: galen

and also a direct link from the Vatican:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html

here is the excerpt:
SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DECLARATION ON PROCURED ABORTION

1. The problem of procured abortion and of its possible legal liberalization has become more or less everywhere the subject of impassioned discussions. These debates would be less grave were it not a question of human life, a primordial value, which must be protected and promoted. Everyone understands this, although many look for reasons, even against all evidence, to promote the use of abortion. One cannot but be astonished to see a simultaneous increase of unqualified protests against the death penalty and every form of war and the vindication of the liberalization of abortion, either in its entirety or in ever broader indications. The Church is too conscious of the fact that it belongs to her vocation to defend man against everything that could disintegrate or lessen his dignity to remain silent on such a topic. Because the Son of God became man, there is no man who is not His brother in humanity and who is not called to become a Christian in order to receive salvation from Him.
2. In many countries the public authorities which resist the liberalization of abortion laws are the object of powerful pressures aimed at leading them to this goal. This, it is said, would violate no one's conscience, for each individual would be left free to follow his own opinion, while being prevented from imposing it on others. Ethical pluralism is claimed to be a normal consequence of ideological pluralism. There is, however, a great difference between the one and the other, for action affects the interests of others more quickly than does mere opinion. Moreover, one can never claim freedom of opinion as a pretext for attacking the rights of others, most especially the right to life.
3. Numerous Christian lay people, especially doctors, but also parents' associations, statesmen, or leading figures in posts of responsibility have vigorously reacted against this propaganda campaign. Above all, many episcopal conferences and many bishops acting in their own name have judged it opportune to recall very strongly the traditional doctrine of the Church.[1] With a striking convergence these documents admirably emphasize an attitude of respect for life which is at the same time human and Christian. Nevertheless, it has happened that several of these documents here or there have encountered reservation or even opposition.
4. Charged with the promotion and the defense of faith and morals in the universal Church,[2] the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith proposes to recall this teaching in its essential aspects to all the faithful. Thus in showing the unity of the Church, it will confirm by the authority proper to the Holy See what the bishops have opportunely undertaken. It hopes that all the faithful, including those who might have been unsettled by the controversies and new opinions, will understand that it is not a question of opposing one opinion to another, but of transmitting to the faithful a constant teaching of the supreme Magisterium, which teaches moral norms in the light of faith.[3] It is therefore clear that this declaration necessarily entails a grave obligation for Christian consciences.[4] May God deign to enlighten also all men who strive with their whole heart to "act in truth" (Jn. 3:21).
5. "Death was not God's doing, he takes no pleasure in the extinction of the living" (Wis. 1:13). Certainly God has created beings who have only one lifetime and physical death cannot be absent from the world of those with a bodily existence. But what is immediately willed is life, and in the visible universe everything has been made for man, who is the image of God and the world's crowning glory (cf. Gen. 1:26-28). On the human level, "it was the devil's envy that brought death into the world" (Wis. 2:24). Introduced by sin, death remains bound up with it: death is the sign and fruit of sin. But there is no final triumph for death. Confirming faith in the Resurrection, the Lord proclaims in the Gospel: "God is God, not of the dead, but of the living" (Mt. 22:32). And death like sin will be definitively defeated by resurrection in Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 15:20-27). Thus we understand that human life, even on this earth, is precious. Infused by the Creator,[5] life is again taken back by Him (cf. Gen. 2:7; Wis. 15:11). It remains under His protection: man's blood cries out to Him (cf. Gen. 4:10) and He will demand an account of it, "for in the image of God man was made" (Gen. 9:5-6). The commandment of God is formal: "You shall not kill" (Ex. 20:13). Life is at the same time a gift and a responsibility. It is received as a "talent" (cf. Mt. 25:14-30); it must be put to proper use. In order that life may bring forth fruit, many tasks are offered to man in this world and he must not shirk them. More important still, the Christian knows that eternal life depends on what, with the grace of God, he does with his life on earth.
6. The tradition of the Church has always held that human life must be protected and favored from the beginning, just as at the various stages of its development. Opposing the morals of the Greco-Roman world, the Church of the first centuries insisted on the difference that exists on this point between those morals and Christian morals. In the Didache it is clearly said: "You shall not kill by abortion the fruit of the womb and you shall not murder the infant already born."[6] Athenagoras emphasizes that Christians consider as murderers those women who take medicines to procure an abortion; he condemns the killers of children, including those still living in their mother's womb, "where they are already the object of the care of divine Providence." Tertullian did not always perhaps use the same language; he nevertheless clearly affirms the essential principle: "To prevent birth is anticipated murder; it makes little difference whether one destroys a life already born or does away with it in its nascent stage. The one who will be a man is already one."[8]
7. In the course of history, the Fathers of the Church, her Pastors and her Doctors have taught the same doctrine - the various opinions on the infusion of the spiritual soul did not introduce any doubt about the illicitness of abortion. It is true that in the Middle Ages, when the opinion was generally held that the spiritual soul was not present until after the first few weeks, a distinction was made in the evaluation of the sin and the gravity of penal sanctions. Excellent authors allowed for this first period more lenient case solutions which they rejected for following periods. But it was never denied at that time that procured abortion, even during the first days, was objectively grave fault. This condemnation was in fact unanimous. Among the many documents it is sufficient to recall certain ones. The first Council of Mainz in 847 reconsidered the penalties against abortion which had been established by preceding Councils. It decided that the most rigorous penance would be imposed "on women who procure the elimination of the fruit conceived in their womb."[9] The Decree of Gratian reported the following words of Pope Stephen V: "That person is a murderer who causes to perish by abortion what has been conceived."[10] St. Thomas, the Common Doctor of the Church, teaches that abortion is a grave sin against the natural law." At the time of the Renaissance Pope Sixtus V condemned abortion with the greatest severity.[12] A century later, Innocent XI rejected the propositions of certain lax canonists who sought to excuse an abortion procured before the moment accepted by some as the moment of the spiritual animation of the new being.[13] In our days the recent Roman Pontiffs have proclaimed the same doctrine with the greatest clarity. Pius XI explicitly answered the most serious objections.[14] Pius XII clearly excluded all direct abortion, that is, abortion which is either an end or a means.[15] John XXIII recalled the teaching of the Fathers on the sacred character of life "which from its beginning demands the action of God the Creator."[16] Most recently, the Second Vatican Council, presided over by Paul VI, has most severely condemned abortion: "Life must be safeguarded with extreme care from conception; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes."[17] The same Paul VI, speaking on this subject on many occasions, has not been afraid to declare that this teaching of the Church "has not changed and is unchangeable."[18]

reply from: galen

and a few more links on the subject...
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives/011703/011703d.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336330,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6750887.stm

http://www.ewtn.com/news/index.asp

reply from: galen

in this last link the Holy Father states that those who undergo abortion must face thier act honestly and humbly... he does not say that thier sin must be swept under the rug or that it be called anything than what it is...
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/april/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080405_istituto-gpii_en.html

excerpt:
You also focused on the tragedy of procured abortion that leaves profound and sometimes indelible marks in the women who undergo it and in the people around them, as well as devastating consequences on the family and society, partly because of the materialistic mentality of contempt for life that it encourages. What selfish complicity often lies at the root of an agonizing decision which so many women have had to face on their own, who still carry in their heart an open wound! Although what has been done remains a grave injustice and is not in itself remediable, I make my own the exhortation in Evangelium Vitae addressed to women who have had an abortion: "Do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. To the same Father and his mercy you can with sure hope entrust your child" (n. 99).

reply from: galen

and one link for you...
http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/__P7.HTM

reply from: galen

what the church says about murder and abortion et al...
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM

reply from: Faramir

Could you narrow this down a little and provide the quote where the pope or the Church says it is proper to call the post abortive woman a "murderer"?
Do you think calling them a murderer is the recommended first step in the healing process?
The FIRST DUTY is to approach these people with LOVE AND CONSIDERATION.
I don't see where we are to call them murderers.
Please provide the quote.
And note the documents you quoted pertain to Catholics who have more fully informed consciences than those outside the Church,who are less culpable because of ignorance, just as they would be less culpable for participating in the use of using condoms, which use the Church considers to be intrinsically evil.
But even regarding Catholics, who know better about abortion, I don't see that they should be called murderers, and I did not see that word used, and I did not see that it was recommended they be called such.
I don't see that there is much to lose by following the Church's lead and dealing with these women with compassion and understanding.
We can leave it to the self-righteous who are smarter and more compassionate than the Church, to do these women the favor of calling them "murderers."

reply from: Disgusting

I heard that he even believes it's wrong to say abusive things to pro-aborts.
He must be getting some really big bucks from Planned Parenthood.
I'm new here, Augustine. Who are some of the women who aborted? I'm anxious to get started with my prolife work and call some people murderous scancs.

reply from: Banned Member

I heard that he even believes it's wrong to say abusive things to pro-aborts.
He must be getting some really big bucks from Planned Parenthood.
I'm new here, Augustine. Who are some of the women who aborted? I'm anxious to get started with my prolife work and call some people murderous scancs.
Faramir? Is that you Faramir? Hello...? Hello...?

reply from: sander

Ya think!
lol....they're so cute at that age!

reply from: Banned Member

Tell me this Faramir, should Catholic priests who have molested children, however many that might be, go to prison for their crimes? or should they be sent to the confessional where their sins will be forgiven and all forgotten, never to be spoken of again?
Or should they go to prison, and to confession?
Would you let the child molesting priest walk free never having faced justice for their crimes?
This would be in my opinion, the Catholic Church's being consistent with the idea of compassion, healing and making individuals responsible for what they have done according to the law. The Catholic Church has learned from these events that it is not good to not call sin by it's name and that only when crimes are acknowledged openly can real and actual healing begin.
Abortion is not a personal crime or a personal sin, it is a sin against neighbor and community.

reply from: galen

The FIRST DUTY is to approach these people with LOVE AND CONSIDERATION.
I don't see where we are to call them murderers.
Please provide the quote.
And note the documents you quoted pertain to Catholics who have more fully informed consciences than those outside the Church,who are less culpable because of ignorance, just as they would be less culpable for participating in the use of using condoms, which use the Church considers to be intrinsically evil.
But even regarding Catholics, who know better about abortion, I don't see that they should be called murderers, and I did not see that word used, and I did not see that it was recommended they be called such.
I don't see that there is much to lose by following the Church's lead and dealing with these women with compassion and understanding.
We can leave it to the self-righteous who are smarter and more compassionate than the Church, to do these women the favor of calling them "murderers."
----------------------------
gee you didn't even read the links.....what good is it to argue with someone who refuses to see even his own Church's voice.....
Even I can go to the vatican website to research a particular point on contraception and/ or euthanasia... but given the same info you won't even read.....WOW. Now your begining to act like Kay, Olivia, and Skippy......

reply from: churchmouse

What is being pro-life? It is giving personhood to the unborn child. Mark Crutcher wrote a fantastic article on his blog, called, Pro-Life What does It Mean? ( December 3, 2007)
He defines it this way, "The pro-life position is that a new human life is created at the moment of fertilization and is, thus, entitled to the same legal protections as any other human being."
If we give the unborn personhood and the same protections as any other living human being on earth, why should it not be murder when it is killed?
Crutcher also says, " So the problem is not that women have abortions, but that children die. And that only occurs because our nation took away their right to life. So maybe we need to talk a little less about stopping abortion and a little more about returning legal protection to the unborn. Perhaps then, all these people claiming to be pro-life would know what being pro-life actually means."
Our nation says that abortion is moral and acceptable and they have taken the unborn right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness away. So of course in the eyes of the law, abortion is not murder. Actually our laws are wishy washy, because women on death row cant be executed if they are pregnant. Why? because they carry a life inside them. A woman can take a pill to kill her unborn, but she cant cause its death unless she pays a doctor to do it for her. In some states its against the law to take drugs that would cause damage to the unborn child. Why? If its not a person, then why put restrictions on the woman. If the unborn is nothing and women can kill it, then why was Scott Peterson convicted on second degree murder in the case of his son, Connor? Our laws make no sense at all. Doctors can kill it because its nothing......but God forbid if anyone else tries.
There is intent to kill every unborn by the abortionist. His job is to kill. It isn't accidental, its intentional, that is fact. This is a premeditated murder whether you like it or not.
How can I call the police when abortion is legal?
You are "right on" here. It is murder. I have been told all you describe here........and worse. LOL
You are right again. Bravo. I agree we must stand up and call abortion what it is. We need to call and hold people accountable for their actions and views on abortion. We need to get in the faces of the women that have abortions and still remain pro-choice, the doctors, our judges, nurses, pastors...and politicians. We need to picket, hold signs, witness, research, work pro-life conventions and booths, write letters....to try to show abortion for what it is. We need to stop using terminate and medical procedure.......and call abortion what it is, killing and murder.

reply from: carolemarie

What is being pro-life? It is giving personhood to the unborn child. Mark Crutcher wrote a fantastic article on his blog, called, Pro-Life What does It Mean? ( December 3, 2007)
He defines it this way, "The pro-life position is that a new human life is created at the moment of fertilization and is, thus, entitled to the same legal protections as any other human being."
If we give the unborn personhood and the same protections as any other living human being on earth, why should it not be murder when it is killed?
Crutcher also says, " So the problem is not that women have abortions, but that children die. And that only occurs because our nation took away their right to life. So maybe we need to talk a little less about stopping abortion and a little more about returning legal protection to the unborn. Perhaps then, all these people claiming to be pro-life would know what being pro-life actually means."
Our nation says that abortion is moral and acceptable and they have taken the unborn right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness away. So of course in the eyes of the law, abortion is not murder. Actually our laws are wishy washy, because women on death row cant be executed if they are pregnant. Why? because they carry a life inside them. A woman can take a pill to kill her unborn, but she cant cause its death unless she pays a doctor to do it for her. In some states its against the law to take drugs that would cause damage to the unborn child. Why? If its not a person, then why put restrictions on the woman. If the unborn is nothing and women can kill it, then why was Scott Peterson convicted on second degree murder in the case of his son, Connor? Our laws make no sense at all. Doctors can kill it because its nothing......but God forbid if anyone else tries.
There is intent to kill every unborn by the abortionist. His job is to kill. It isn't accidental, its intentional, that is fact. This is a premeditated murder whether you like it or not.
How can I call the police when abortion is legal?
You are "right on" here. It is murder. I have been told all you describe here........and worse. LOL
You are right again. Bravo. I agree we must stand up and call abortion what it is. We need to call and hold people accountable for their actions and views on abortion. We need to get in the faces of the women that have abortions and still remain pro-choice, the doctors, our judges, nurses, pastors...and politicians. We need to picket, hold signs, witness, research, work pro-life conventions and booths, write letters....to try to show abortion for what it is. We need to stop using terminate and medical procedure.......and call abortion what it is, killing and murder.
Get in womens faces???? Is that how you changed your mind, through obnoxious people calling you names? Geez Louise!
You will catch more flys with honey than vinegar, and clubbing people over the head with their sins isn't what Jesus did. Not once in scripture did Jesus call people who were not religious leaders names. The reason is because the kindest person in the universe is God! He cares about lost sinners and their feelings, and God says to sinners, "Come now, let us reason together, even though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white as snow. God advocates reason, not name calling.
They are not the same thing.

reply from: Banned Member

Another essential requisite for forgiveness and reconciliation is justice, which finds its ultimate foundation in the law of God and in his plan of love and mercy for humanity. Understood in this way, justice is not limited to establishing what is right between the parties in conflict but looks above all to re-establishing authentic relationships with God, with oneself and with others. Thus there is no contradiction between forgiveness and justice. Forgiveness neither eliminates nor lessens the need for the reparation which justice requires, but seeks to reintegrate individuals and groups into society, and States into the community of Nations. No punishment can suppress the inalienable dignity of those who have committed evil. The door to repentance and rehabilitation must always remain open. -Pope John Paul II

reply from: churchmouse

I am not sure I understand you here. Explain.
Sometimes you need a fly swater because honey doesnt work.
What I meant about in their faces, is to go where abortions are being done, mainly PP offices. Hold signs, hand out literature. Be the last thing they see before they go in. When we picket or pray in front of PP offices we rarely ever talk to the women going in. We say nothing. I have never yelled or said anything mean to any woman that goes into the clinic or comes out. You are right about Jesus. What do you think Jesus would do outside a PP clinic?
You know I would have given anything if someone had gotten in front of my face.

reply from: churchmouse

He did not start the thread and I don't see him debating here. How would I know how he feels about this topic? I am new so I do not know what you are talking about.
What is his style of witnessing? Witnessing is a command that all Christians should take seriously.

reply from: carolemarie

I am not sure I understand you here. Explain.
Sometimes you need a fly swater because honey doesnt work.
What I meant about in their faces, is to go where abortions are being done, mainly PP offices. Hold signs, hand out literature. Be the last thing they see before they go in. When we picket or pray in front of PP offices we rarely ever talk to the women going in. We say nothing. I have never yelled or said anything mean to any woman that goes into the clinic or comes out. You are right about Jesus. What do you think Jesus would do outside a PP clinic?
You know I would have given anything if someone had gotten in front of my face.
When you said get into their faces, I thought you meant calling them names. Sorry for misunderstanding you.
I am all for going to the clinics talking to them and helping them find a better solution to whatever problem they are having. I am all about post-abortion outreach for those who don't listen as well....
I guess I should have asked for clarification as to what you meant by that statement.
I have thought about if things would have been different if people had been at the clinic, but I probably wouldn't have changed my mind, I had resigned myself to the fact that this was what I had to do. Most women have made up their minds by the time they get there.

reply from: churchmouse

I'll look around for some.
What prison he is posting from? If he is pro-killing then surely he put his money where his mouth was and helped the cause by killing someone. LOL
Oh Carol, I would never called anyone names. In fact in over ten years of work with pro-life organizations, I have never seen it happen. when we go stand at clinics, we pray and hold signs. Well.......and cry a lot.
Did you have an abortion?
If you have, then we have a connection. I have someone here that knows what I have been through.
Blessings

reply from: carolemarie

Sadly, I have seen some of that name calling at the clinics. Happily, it isn't the norm!
I think it is great you go to the clinics and try to help women make better choices! Praying is the best kind of help there is.
One thing we do different than many groups is that we give out gift bags to the women after abortion that has a gift for her and some information on healing and God. Basically, its a mug with a tea bag, a letter from me and a bible and some post-abortion healing information, and of course chocolate! We have gotten good responses and phone calls later from that.
And yes, I have had three abortions.

reply from: churchmouse

I think that is a wonderful idea. How do you know the women that have had one when they come out?
God bless you Carol. You never know where a woman is in her life. She might have been pressured into the abortion who knows, but Christ would want us to show love and to be kind. You put a lot of love into your gift bag and hopefully they will read the bible you gave them and realize that Christ does forgive.
I'll pray for your ministry.

reply from: nancyu

(from http://www.drlaurablog.com/2007/05/01/making-judgments-about-the-supreme-courts-latest-decision-about-abortion/#more-43 )
Making Judgments About The Supreme Court's Latest Decision About Abortion
May 1, 2007 on 12:00 am | In Abortion, Supreme Court Email This Post Email This Post
I just about lost it reading Linda P. Campbell's syndicated column (www.realcities.com/mld/dfw/news/columnists/linda_campbell/17137857/17137857.htm) about the Supreme Court's abortion decision not being simple or neat. Let me take some of her points one by one, as she explains her abhorrence of any controls over any abortion, in addition to the barbaric sucking out of a baby's brain after the head emerges from the birth canal (partial birth abortion).
First, she says "And of course, a woman who's about to undergo an abortion ought to understand the details, risks and implications just as much as she should before a tummy tuck, hip replacement, or appendectomy."
All those procedures require an office visit and an explanation of the process, and then a new appointment for the procedure. Call any Planned Parenthood you like - or walk in, and you can get an abortion right then and there, as long as it isn't too busy. Planned Parenthood, NOW (the National Organization of "I don't know what kind of " Women) and other "feminist" organizations have always been against the waiting period, a sonogram to show the baby's level of development, or a discussion about the benefits of giving life and finding a suitable two-parent, married mom and dad family for adoption.
Second, she says, "I can't imagine the circumstances that would cause a woman to choose abortion. But I can appreciate that each one who does has reasons that only she can reconcile with her conscience."
I have been on radio taking calls from slightly more than 50% women for 32 years. I know why women have abortions, because they've called. It is rarely because of severe anomalies or life-threatening circumstances. It is generally because of "circumstances," usually meaning the one-night stand, casual boyfriend, fiancé, or sometimes husband doesn't want a child or else dumps them.
Ms. Campbell continues: "It's all too tempting to make judgments about which motives we consider justified and which we don't. But then we risk wandering into scary territory. How far do we want to let lawmakers and zealots reach into our most personal and private decisions when they haven't a clue about what's best for us?"
What?? We should make no judgments about motivations to kill another human being? Self-defense in an armed robbery deserves the same respect as the intentional murder of innocents by a suicide-bombing? A woman who keeps having casual sex and uses abortion as birth control can't be judged differently from a pregnant woman with a serious heart problem who might die if the pregnancy goes to term?
I, for one, am sick and tired with the "nothing should be judged" nonsense. Of course we judge - that's how we make decisions and choices every day. To judge is to discern good from evil, right from wrong, and selfish from selfless. Without that, we are just lower animals.
Abortions out of shame, embarrassment, or inconvenience are a horrible, despicable disaster. An Abortion to save the life of the mother is self-defense.
There. I dared to judge.

reply from: nancyu

You sound so proud of yourself. Chocalate, and tea bags!!?? Have you ever heard of "positive reinforcement" You are not supposed to reward bad behavior. It tends to encourage the bad behavior rather than discourage it. But of course I guess you see nothing wrong with that. You being pro choice and all.

reply from: galen

i have to say carol... you have me a bit stumped.... chocolate and tea bags??
Of course they respond to you afterwards... they no longer have to deal with the ' BIG PROBLEM' they can now deny all they want....i'm incredulous.

reply from: joe

Unbelievable! You really do not believe that abortion is the killing of a innocent human life.

reply from: sander

Tea and chocolates, what'll they think of next.
Bible, yes. God doesn't white wash or sugar coat His Word, they can find healing and God Himself, if that's what they have a heart to do.
And there they can find the truth and it's the truth that will set them free, not a goody bag.

reply from: joe

This I agree with. Help the sinner but still honor the unborn that was the actual victim.

reply from: carolemarie

The clinic I go to most often works by having all the women there, prepped and ready before the Dr. gets there. All the ones that have to come back or aren't sure leave. When He gets there they start the abortions, so after about an hour they start leaving. They look drawn and tired and some are in pain walking to their cars. It breaks your heart to watch it.
So on the way out, I have a sign that says Help after abortion. As they start to leave I ask if they are okay, and hand them the gift bag. Most stop and lots of the friends stop and get it for her. Some friends will get the bag while they are waiting for the abortion to be over with, and we get to talk to them and share the gospel.
At this point, it is to late to do anything but be there to help her when she is ready to seek healing.

reply from: sander

Bible, yes. God doesn't white wash or sugar coat His Word, they can find healing and God Himself, if that's what they have a heart to do.
And there they can find the truth and it's the truth that will set them free, not a goody bag.

reply from: carolemarie

You sound so proud of yourself. Chocalate, and tea bags!!?? Have you ever heard of "positive reinforcement" You are not supposed to reward bad behavior. It tends to encourage the bad behavior rather than discourage it. But of course I guess you see nothing wrong with that. You being pro choice and all.
Abortion is a terrible thing. And those women will live with what they did the rest of their lives. But God doesn't hate them, God isn't done with them and God wants them to come to know Him. He loves them. No matter if it is one abortion or thirty, God wants to heal them and to restore them.
We want to be a witness to that kind of healing love. We wanted something tangible to give them that they could use later. So the cup of tea was for their bodies, and the bible and information is for their souls.
God thinks they are worth it and so do I.
I am not prochoice and you know that!

reply from: carolemarie

Bible, yes. God doesn't white wash or sugar coat His Word, they can find healing and God Himself, if that's what they have a heart to do.
And there they can find the truth and it's the truth that will set them free, not a goody bag.
Yes, and that Bible is inside the gift bag! The bag is just a way to reach out.
And FYI, it works. They call for help in dealing with the abortion, they call to talk and we can share more with them. It is called reaching out in love.

reply from: carolemarie

I think Dr. Laura is just rude and obnoxious to people. I agree with most of her sediments, but intensly dislike the way she treats people. I understand it is her calling card,( being nasty and rude), but sheez....

reply from: nancyu

I guess it's a preference for style. I think it is rude and dishonest to act all "AWWW you had an abortion, you poor thing." I prefer Dr Laura's directness. She is not rude and nasty to people, she is rude and nasty to their erroneous ideas. Listening to her radio program several years ago is what wakened me from my apathy. I am just one of millions affected by her program. I hope she has done far more for the pro life movement than you have done harm to it by handing out tea and chocolates to the murderers.

reply from: nancyu

Maybe if it was the norm, people would be DIScouraged from going there. Instead of ENcouraged by looking forward to the tea and chocalate they will get on their way out the door.
You wear that as a badge of honor, don't you.

reply from: nancyu

I'll look around for some.
What prison he is posting from? If he is pro-killing then surely he put his money where his mouth was and helped the cause by killing someone. LOL
Oh Carol, I would never called anyone names. In fact in over ten years of work with pro-life organizations, I have never seen it happen. when we go stand at clinics, we pray and hold signs. Well.......and cry a lot.
Did you have an abortion?
If you have, then we have a connection. I have someone here that knows what I have been through.
Blessings
A badge of honor.

reply from: cracrat

Yes dear. I'm quite sure these women go through an expensive, invasive, traumatic procedure on the off chance that Carol or here cohorts will be outside handing out tea and chocolate afterwards.

reply from: cracrat

You wear that as a badge of honor, don't you.
It is demonstrative of undertanding. Carol and Churchmouse have had abortions so can empathise with these women on a level that you will never be able to (your complete lack of empathy notwithstanding). Just like the people who were most effective on the rape crisis helpline I volunteered at a few years ago were the ones who had been raped and understood what the person they were talking to was going through. The ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes is the first steps to understanding them. And you will rarely change a person effectively without that understanding.

reply from: carolemarie

I was simply responding to a direct question asked by another poster.
Your the one who is reading something into it that isn't there.

reply from: carolemarie

I guess it's a preference for style. I think it is rude and dishonest to act all "AWWW you had an abortion, you poor thing." I prefer Dr Laura's directness. She is not rude and nasty to people, she is rude and nasty to their erroneous ideas. Listening to her radio program several years ago is what wakened me from my apathy. I am just one of millions affected by her program. I hope she has done far more for the pro life movement than you have done harm to it by handing out tea and chocolates to the murderers.
First of all, how would you know what would work at the abortion clinic? You don't go there and talk to anyone. So your opinion is worthless, you don't know what works because you don't minister at the clinics.
Second, post-abortion outreach is a very much needed outreach at the clinic. Too bad we don't love the sinner enough to do more of it.....
You need to reach that women after the abortion for several reasons, the most important being that she needs Jesus more than ever. But if the fate of her soul doesn't move you to care, there is repeat abortion syndrome, the self-destructive behavior that typically follows and all the misery that gets inflicted on other people, the votes she will cast and advise she will give others. All these are good reasons to try and reach her now.

reply from: sander

Bible, yes. God doesn't white wash or sugar coat His Word, they can find healing and God Himself, if that's what they have a heart to do.
And there they can find the truth and it's the truth that will set them free, not a goody bag.
Yes, and that Bible is inside the gift bag! The bag is just a way to reach out.
And FYI, it works. They call for help in dealing with the abortion, they call to talk and we can share more with them. It is called reaching out in love.
There is something fundamentally wrong with giving a "gift bag" to someone who just murdered their child. Truth yes, gifts no.
You're more concerned with the woman than the child that just met his or hers untimely death in a way that would have made Hitler blush. You're more concerned with how YOU look than giving these women the TRUTH, all the while knowing it's the TRUTH that will set them free.
I think you need to re-read the story of the prodigal son. If someone had been handing him tea and chocolates in the pig pen, he would still be there.

reply from: nancyu

My feelings for you exactly.

reply from: sander

My feelings for you exactly.
Stop the presses!
This sounds mighty close to CM judging!

reply from: nancyu

Yes dear. I'm quite sure these women go through an expensive, invasive, traumatic procedure on the off chance that Carol or here cohorts will be outside handing out tea and chocolate afterwards.
I donated blood a time or two. All I got was some cheezits and apple juice.
(and I must say, I felt special afterward)

reply from: nancyu

You wear that as a badge of honor, don't you.
It is demonstrative of undertanding. Carol and Churchmouse have had abortions so can empathise with these women on a level that you will never be able to (your complete lack of empathy notwithstanding). Just like the people who were most effective on the rape crisis helpline I volunteered at a few years ago were the ones who had been raped and understood what the person they were talking to was going through. The ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes is the first steps to understanding them. And you will rarely change a person effectively without that understanding.
I do not have a complete lack of empathy for all women who abort, just these two in particular.

reply from: nancyu

My feelings for you exactly.
Stop the presses!
This sounds mighty close to CM judging!
Vahh!! I will be reporting this to the moderator!

reply from: terry

This reminds me of a situation when my older brother and I were teenagers. We were beating ourselves senseless in a fight to the death, when my mother yelled to my father to do something.
Being his normal self and not looking up from the newspaper he exhorted us by saying, "You kids play nice." I managed to come out of that one with only a chipped tooth. (By the way and totally TMI - he is coming to visit over the weekend, we'll see who has the chipped tooth come Monday )

reply from: nancyu


Who are you talking to?

reply from: nancyu

You wear that as a badge of honor, don't you.
It is demonstrative of undertanding. Carol and Churchmouse have had abortions so can empathise with these women on a level that you will never be able to (your complete lack of empathy notwithstanding). Just like the people who were most effective on the rape crisis helpline I volunteered at a few years ago were the ones who had been raped and understood what the person they were talking to was going through. The ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes is the first steps to understanding them. And you will rarely change a person effectively without that understanding.
Oh yeah? Who are you to judge??

reply from: nancyu

Thanks for setting CM straight, terry. It's clear to anyone that she started it!!
Hope you have a good visit with your brother. Play nice.

reply from: carolemarie

Bible, yes. God doesn't white wash or sugar coat His Word, they can find healing and God Himself, if that's what they have a heart to do.
And there they can find the truth and it's the truth that will set them free, not a goody bag.
Yes, and that Bible is inside the gift bag! The bag is just a way to reach out.
And FYI, it works. They call for help in dealing with the abortion, they call to talk and we can share more with them. It is called reaching out in love.
There is something fundamentally wrong with giving a "gift bag" to someone who just murdered their child. Truth yes, gifts no.
You're more concerned with the woman than the child that just met his or hers untimely death in a way that would have made Hitler blush. You're more concerned with how YOU look than giving these women the TRUTH, all the while knowing it's the TRUTH that will set them free.
I think you need to re-read the story of the prodigal son. If someone had been handing him tea and chocolates in the pig pen, he would still be there.
Would you like it better if I call it an outreach packet?
Let me re-phrase that for you.
We give the women outreach packets, that have a bible, tracts, a mug and some tea bags and chocolate as well as some other Christian information and links to post abortion healing programs.

reply from: carolemarie

My feelings for you exactly.
Stop the presses!
This sounds mighty close to CM judging!
Experience trumps opinion everytime. How can you possibly tell me what will work if you never have done it? Why should her opinion be worth anything when it is based on nothing except speculation? If Nancy had actually had some experience in reaching out to women at abortion clinics, then I would listen to what she had to say worked for her. This is the post abortion outreach part of the ministry.

reply from: cracrat

Yes dear. I'm quite sure these women go through an expensive, invasive, traumatic procedure on the off chance that Carol or here cohorts will be outside handing out tea and chocolate afterwards.
I donated blood a time or two. All I got was some cheezits and apple juice.
(and I must say, I felt special afterward)
In Ireland you used to get a half pint of Guinness because of its high iron content. Don't know if you still do though, the EU might have spoiled that fun. I'll give everyone a tip, when the nurse asks "Do you mind if this trainee puts the needle in your arm?" answer no every time. No warm fuzzy feeling is worth 12 attempts with that thing.

reply from: cracrat

You wear that as a badge of honor, don't you.
It is demonstrative of undertanding. Carol and Churchmouse have had abortions so can empathise with these women on a level that you will never be able to (your complete lack of empathy notwithstanding). Just like the people who were most effective on the rape crisis helpline I volunteered at a few years ago were the ones who had been raped and understood what the person they were talking to was going through. The ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes is the first steps to understanding them. And you will rarely change a person effectively without that understanding.
I do not have a complete lack of empathy for all women who abort, just these two in particular.
Oh, OK. I'm sure post-abortive women every are feeling relieved.

reply from: cracrat

You wear that as a badge of honor, don't you.
It is demonstrative of undertanding. Carol and Churchmouse have had abortions so can empathise with these women on a level that you will never be able to (your complete lack of empathy notwithstanding). Just like the people who were most effective on the rape crisis helpline I volunteered at a few years ago were the ones who had been raped and understood what the person they were talking to was going through. The ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes is the first steps to understanding them. And you will rarely change a person effectively without that understanding.
Oh yeah? Who are you to judge??
I'm sorry, whatnow?

reply from: cracrat

That's so wierd, my father always used to tell me and my brothers to go play in traffic whilst not looking up from his paper.

reply from: nancyu

That's so wierd, my father always used to tell me and my brothers to go play in traffic whilst not looking up from his paper.
Why didn't you ever listen to him?

reply from: nancyu

You wear that as a badge of honor, don't you.
It is demonstrative of undertanding. Carol and Churchmouse have had abortions so can empathise with these women on a level that you will never be able to (your complete lack of empathy notwithstanding). Just like the people who were most effective on the rape crisis helpline I volunteered at a few years ago were the ones who had been raped and understood what the person they were talking to was going through. The ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes is the first steps to understanding them. And you will rarely change a person effectively without that understanding.
I do not have a complete lack of empathy for all women who abort, just these two in particular.
Oh, OK. I'm sure post-abortive women every are feeling relieved.
And I'm sure the pre abortive ones are delaying their abortions until Carolemarie's "goodie-bag" day.

reply from: galen

You sound so proud of yourself. Chocalate, and tea bags!!?? Have you ever heard of "positive reinforcement" You are not supposed to reward bad behavior. It tends to encourage the bad behavior rather than discourage it. But of course I guess you see nothing wrong with that. You being pro choice and all.
Abortion is a terrible thing. And those women will live with what they did the rest of their lives. But God doesn't hate them, God isn't done with them and God wants them to come to know Him. He loves them. No matter if it is one abortion or thirty, God wants to heal them and to restore them.
----------------------------------------------------
Carole... i don't think God hates people... but i am sure he gets pissed at what they do. God forgives those who are truely repentant...and in the case of an abortion regret comes first.. then repentance. I just don't see what you do as something that sits well with me personally...
how about trying harder with the adoption signs.. BEFORE they go in to rip apart thier kids...maybe spend funds on stuff for BEFORE they abort... not comfort them afterward....
i for one am really flabbergasted about what you do...i don't know exactly how to say how aweful it sounds to me.

reply from: sander

I must go a step further, the whole idea of rewarding these women who have just killed their child, with bits of chocolate and tea, I find highly offensive.
And flies in the face of what the prolife movement stands for...we're trying to save the babies BEFORE they are killed.
No matter who objects, it also flies in the face of God's Word. No where does He say to acknowledge such a deeply horrendous sin as murder of the defensless with pity or treats.
I don't know what part of THEY SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET THEM FREE is so hard to understand?
We shouldn't "condem" and we shouldn't give "gift bags" fancied up for the sinner either.
The whole idea is incredulous.

reply from: sander

You're probably familiar with the story of Jesus and the woman at the well, correct?
As Christians we should use Christ as our prime example.
He didn't hand her a piece of honey comb and say, "now, now dear, I know life has been hard for you, so many husbands and now a live in, poor thing. I know you had hard choices to make".
No, he told her the unvarnished truth, told her everything she had ever done and amazingly she was changed. Why? Because she met the Truth, told her the truth and the Truth set her free.
Giving the Bible is doing something nice and will do more for these women than a ton of chocolate and all the tea in China.

reply from: nancyu

My feelings for you exactly.
Stop the presses!
This sounds mighty close to CM judging!
Experience trumps opinion everytime. How can you possibly tell me what will work if you never have done it? Why should her opinion be worth anything when it is based on nothing except speculation? If Nancy had actually had some experience in reaching out to women at abortion clinics, then I would listen to what she had to say worked for her. This is the post abortion outreach part of the ministry.
If Yoda had said he was giving out the same packets, the same people who are criticizing you would be cheering and patting him on the back...Just let it go, Carol. You see what's going on here. So do many others. You said your piece, so let them do what they think they have to do....
If Yoda did that, I have news for you. I would no longer be his friend. I have more news for you. Yoda would NOT do THAT!
Please ---- How idiotic can you be??!!

reply from: nancyu

So, once a woman aborts, we can never do anything nice for her, or we will be guilty of rewarding her for aborting?
Did she say that?? No she did not. You give someone flowers or tea and chocolate after they have been through an apendectomy, or a cancer treatment. NOT immediately after she has finished killing her own child!!
CP, I think you might be schizophrenic. I've never seen someone so eloquently speak out against abortion, and then, turn around and defend something this vile, and this much against everything it means to be pro life.

reply from: teddybearhamster

i know it's not nice but i think the only thing i could give a woman after an abortion is a punch in the face.

reply from: sander

I missed the bit about Yoda doing something like this and we'd be patting him on the back!
Listen here Yoda, on line hubby or not....we're headed for divorce court if you even think of doing such a thing! Just so the record is straight and CP's defense dries up just like I hope these reward bags do...save the Bible, of course.

reply from: sander

You're probably familiar with the story of Jesus and the woman at the well, correct?
As Christians we should use Christ as our prime example.
He didn't hand her a piece of honey comb and say, "now, now dear, I know life has been hard for you, so many husbands and now a live in, poor thing. I know you had hard choices to make".
No, he told her the unvarnished truth, told her everything she had ever done and amazingly she was changed. Why? Because she met the Truth, told her the truth and the Truth set her free.
Giving the Bible is doing something nice and will do more for these women than a ton of chocolate and all the tea in China.
I don't understand why it's wrong to put chocolate and tea in the bag as well...
I know you read the example.
Would you give tea and chocolate to someone who just murdered a born person?
And yes, Jesus did spend time with sinners but, you'll notice He didn't reward their behavior...see above.

reply from: nancyu

At least then she might start to get the message that it's not a good place to be. The problem is that you would be the one put in jail.
I still think we should just call the police, and say there is someone here who is trying to murder her child. If enough people did that, maybe the message would start to sink in about who the real victim is here.

reply from: carolemarie

Frankly, your attitude suprises me on this.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what we do at the clinic and why we go. It is a two fold outreach. There is a before part and an after part. Both are essential.
First of all, we do try to reach them BEFORE the abortion. We spend alot of time and money and effort on that part of the outreach.Most of the resources are for the ones who need help, like paying rent and electric bills and other needs, like food and all of that. We believed in helping them now, and after the baby is born. We still do. For the first few years, that was all we did. After the Dr. started the procedures everyone would go home, because there was nothing left to do. You couldn't save any more babies, so everyone would pack up and leave.
The truth was we only cared about those women as long as they changed their minds and that wasn't pleasing to God either. It was a lie to say I care about you and what happens to you if I wasn't willing to care if they didn't do what I wanted. Jesus expects us to love them anyways.
We wanted to reach those who made the wrong choice. I can't tell you how many women think Christians hate them. They need to find healing and that is in Jesus. So we try to meet them where they are and sow seed and be available to them.
Here is the thing, it works, because they feel safe with us and that they can trust us and then we can share the gospel with them.
It isn't an either or thing. You can do both things at the clinic.
It's about loving your neighbor as yourself...
I am glad that God allows us the honor of helping women choose life and the honor of helping those that fall into sin find there way to Him.

reply from: Faramir

You sound so proud of yourself. Chocalate, and tea bags!!?? Have you ever heard of "positive reinforcement" You are not supposed to reward bad behavior. It tends to encourage the bad behavior rather than discourage it. But of course I guess you see nothing wrong with that. You being pro choice and all.
Abortion is a terrible thing. And those women will live with what they did the rest of their lives. But God doesn't hate them, God isn't done with them and God wants them to come to know Him. He loves them. No matter if it is one abortion or thirty, God wants to heal them and to restore them.
----------------------------------------------------
Carole... i don't think God hates people... but i am sure he gets pissed at what they do. God forgives those who are truely repentant...and in the case of an abortion regret comes first.. then repentance. I just don't see what you do as something that sits well with me personally...
how about trying harder with the adoption signs.. BEFORE they go in to rip apart thier kids...maybe spend funds on stuff for BEFORE they abort... not comfort them afterward....
i for one am really flabbergasted about what you do...i don't know exactly how to say how aweful it sounds to me.
Here is the typical "either-or" fallacy.
Just because Carole happens to care about the women after the abortion, does not mean she is not out there trying to prevent them in the first place. She has reported that their counselling has SAVED BABIES, so she is out there doing what she can.
But the postabortive woman is hurting and needs love, and that could be what cracks the hardness and brings her to repentance. Punching her in the face would not do that.
For someone who works with women who have problems, Galen, I'm appalled by your lack of empathy and compassion for the postabortive woman.

reply from: carolemarie

You're probably familiar with the story of Jesus and the woman at the well, correct?
As Christians we should use Christ as our prime example.
He didn't hand her a piece of honey comb and say, "now, now dear, I know life has been hard for you, so many husbands and now a live in, poor thing. I know you had hard choices to make".
No, he told her the unvarnished truth, told her everything she had ever done and amazingly she was changed. Why? Because she met the Truth, told her the truth and the Truth set her free.
Giving the Bible is doing something nice and will do more for these women than a ton of chocolate and all the tea in China.
I don't understand why it's wrong to put chocolate and tea in the bag as well...
I know you read the example.
Would you give tea and chocolate to someone who just murdered a born person?
And yes, Jesus did spend time with sinners but, you'll notice He didn't reward their behavior...see above.
Do you not read? There is more in the bag than tea and chocolate. The Word of God is in the bag, salvation tracts, a trac on making peace with God and a list of post abortion counseling programs. There is something wrong with you if you want to withhold outreach to women or have some weird timetable of when it is okay to reach out to them.

reply from: Faramir

You're probably familiar with the story of Jesus and the woman at the well, correct?
As Christians we should use Christ as our prime example.
He didn't hand her a piece of honey comb and say, "now, now dear, I know life has been hard for you, so many husbands and now a live in, poor thing. I know you had hard choices to make".
No, he told her the unvarnished truth, told her everything she had ever done and amazingly she was changed. Why? Because she met the Truth, told her the truth and the Truth set her free.
Giving the Bible is doing something nice and will do more for these women than a ton of chocolate and all the tea in China.
He didn't call her a scanc either.
I think you are distorting their efforts by calling it a "reward."
Haven't you seen the bumper sticker: "Abortion--one killed, one wounded" or something to that effect.
At least they are being contacted and they have been given tracts of information. I don't know what they say, but I'm assuming that there is information about places they can go if they feel a need for some helpl.
I don't know if I agree or disagree with the candy business, but I think the intent is good. I don't see it as a reward, but just a version of the old saying about "catching flies with honey..."

reply from: carolemarie

Legalistic people always oppose grace and mercy.
Proverbs tells us that a "a man's gift prepares his way",
A mug and some candy isn't a reward. It is simply trying to express love in a tangible form.

reply from: carolemarie

You should probably remember where you have come from in your own life, before you go about slugging other people.....
All people sin. And all of it is ugly and disgusting. But that person still has value to God, and we are suppose to treat them that way.
We are to overcome evil with good.

reply from: carolemarie

LOL! I was getting annoyed, then I realized if you all knew where I took those bags you probably wouldn't like that either. So at the risk of offending you, I take similar bags to strip clubs and to massage parlors and they are passed out at porn conventions. Sometimes we take lunch to the hooker hotels and knock on the door and tell them, Jesus sent lunch...and leave them a gift bag as well.
Sorry, but God cares about people, He sent Jesus to die for us while we were still sinners, God gave the ultimate gift bag to humanity, I am just imitating Him

reply from: Faramir

Legalistic people always oppose grace and mercy.
Proverbs tells us that a "a man's gift prepares his way",
A mug and some candy isn't a reward. It is simply trying to express love in a tangible form.
I had been in a few prolife marches in our town on the Roe v Wade anniversary. The woman who runs them does a lot of prolife work and is the most hard core prolifer I've ever met in real life--has been arrested several times for demonstrating, etc. Yet, she's as kind as can be to the women--pre or post abortive. Some of the people I've seen on this forum are a totally different kind of prolife animal that those I have met in real life and have seen on television.
At any rate, one time there were a few hecklers at our march--which was about a mile and a half and concluded with a rally that lasted several hours in the park. There were about a half dozen of them and they were taunting us and being general wise asses.
But when we got to the park, it was drizzly and cold and they were invited to share hot drinks and cookies, and they did, and I later saw a couple of them having discussions and debates with some of the prolifers, but it was respectful and friendly.
The point being that giving these people hot coffee and cookies was not a "reward" for their bad behavior, but a way to reach out to them.

reply from: galen

You sound so proud of yourself. Chocalate, and tea bags!!?? Have you ever heard of "positive reinforcement" You are not supposed to reward bad behavior. It tends to encourage the bad behavior rather than discourage it. But of course I guess you see nothing wrong with that. You being pro choice and all.
Abortion is a terrible thing. And those women will live with what they did the rest of their lives. But God doesn't hate them, God isn't done with them and God wants them to come to know Him. He loves them. No matter if it is one abortion or thirty, God wants to heal them and to restore them.
----------------------------------------------------
Carole... i don't think God hates people... but i am sure he gets pissed at what they do. God forgives those who are truely repentant...and in the case of an abortion regret comes first.. then repentance. I just don't see what you do as something that sits well with me personally...
how about trying harder with the adoption signs.. BEFORE they go in to rip apart thier kids...maybe spend funds on stuff for BEFORE they abort... not comfort them afterward....
i for one am really flabbergasted about what you do...i don't know exactly how to say how aweful it sounds to me.
Here is the typical "either-or" fallacy.
Just because Carole happens to care about the women after the abortion, does not mean she is not out there trying to prevent them in the first place. She has reported that their counselling has SAVED BABIES, so she is out there doing what she can.
But the postabortive woman is hurting and needs love, and that could be what cracks the hardness and brings her to repentance. Punching her in the face would not do that.
For someone who works with women who have problems, Galen, I'm appalled by your lack of empathy and compassion for the postabortive woman.
-----------------------------
I have plenty of empathy and compassion... i also see how utterly useless all the hand holding is when a woman does not admit what she has done.. TRUELY admit it. It does more harm than good in the long run to sit and emathise with a woman right after she has done such a thing...SHE must really get what has happened or she will turn around and do the same thing once again..believe me i've been there and it does not usually work.
I did much sypathising and hand holding when i was younger... lots of holding back when counseling... and every one of those women either wallowed in thier depression with out getting to the real heart of thier grief... that is untill i started making them do the hard work of admitting what they had done truely owning it and then working on getting past it. Untill they feel it for real.. for them there isn't a reality and they repeat past mistakes.
Save the tea and biscuit untill later.
After the real work is done, then enjoy your refreshment.
Please don't assume you know me , or my methods, because you have not walked in my shoes with these women.
Its one thing to empathise with a rape victim and another to hand hold a mother who has killed her child for the sake of her 'convienence'.

reply from: galen

Frankly, your attitude suprises me on this.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what we do at the clinic and why we go. It is a two fold outreach. There is a before part and an after part. Both are essential.
First of all, we do try to reach them BEFORE the abortion. We spend alot of time and money and effort on that part of the outreach.Most of the resources are for the ones who need help, like paying rent and electric bills and other needs, like food and all of that. We believed in helping them now, and after the baby is born. We still do. For the first few years, that was all we did. After the Dr. started the procedures everyone would go home, because there was nothing left to do. You couldn't save any more babies, so everyone would pack up and leave.
The truth was we only cared about those women as long as they changed their minds and that wasn't pleasing to God either. It was a lie to say I care about you and what happens to you if I wasn't willing to care if they didn't do what I wanted. Jesus expects us to love them anyways.
We wanted to reach those who made the wrong choice. I can't tell you how many women think Christians hate them. They need to find healing and that is in Jesus. So we try to meet them where they are and sow seed and be available to them.
Here is the thing, it works, because they feel safe with us and that they can trust us and then we can share the gospel with them.
It isn't an either or thing. You can do both things at the clinic.
It's about loving your neighbor as yourself...
I am glad that God allows us the honor of helping women choose life and the honor of helping those that fall into sin find there way to Him.
-------------------------------
I do understand that you think this is helping them... but in the mind of someone who has killed someone for the sake of thier own security it most of the time enables them to make another bad discision like the first later on... They know you'll be there to comfort them after... its like saying to a thief that you know they are a good person and trusting them not to do another home invasion next week... it does not work in 99% of the cases.
I have to wonder how many repeat offenders you will end up with...?

reply from: Faramir

If there are tracts that discuss abortion and needing healing, how could that be offering "comfort"?
These people know the same people who are reaching out to them after their abortion are also trying to stop them from having it in the first place.
What does the clinic give them? Besides a bill, probably condoms or advice about contraception--no real solution and no love.
What they are doing is a good thing, and ought to be praised. It is not an act of approval for an abortion, but a reaching out to someone who is hurting.

reply from: galen

Its the How and the When that is at issue...
I have not said that i thought she was doing anything out of acceptance of the AB the woman just had... but it will be percieved that way by most women.. that mixed message can end up doing more harm than good.
These post abortive women are not the sex trade workers she is counseling also... the psychology involved is diffrent.

reply from: Faramir

You might have a point if all they did was stand outside the clinic to talk to women AFTER the abortion. But they see these same people demonstrating and trying to STOP them from aborting.

reply from: galen

I do have a point... before is great... byut after its agian a diffrent psychology working then... they have already DONE the deed...how you feel before you ever kill someone changes after you actually do the killing... your whole psychological makeup is diffrent. wheather you acknowlege its a person or not...
if you are squeamish about killing animals it gets easier for you to do so after a few kills... especially if daddy or mommy tells you its an ok thing to do. Its been tested and prooven by minds far greater than mine.
look it up.

reply from: churchmouse

I am so sick at most of the posters comments here I can't even think. I thought for once I found a debate board where people actually showed love and compassion, the kind Christ showed mankind, especially me.
But what we have here are stone throwers. Big mouthed stone throwers that have no idea about the topic they talk about.
Incredible that the humanist here are the ones that show real love and compassion.
Carol my sister in Christ, do NOT STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING. You are planting seeds. You take the Great Commission seriously. God will do the rest.
We know because we have had abortions what pain is really like. We have to live with it daily. Christ saved us Carol. And He through our work will save others.
No true Christian would bash or demean someone that had repented and asked Gods forgiveness. Obviously this is a pro-life board with perfect people like nancy, who shows extreme hatred in every post.
But we are all sinners and we have only been saved by the grace of God, certainly by no work what we have done.
Keep giving out those little gifts.......God knows your heart these jerks dont. And he WILL REWARD YOU.
God bless you my sister in Christ.
And nancy, you got issues, thats for sure.

reply from: Faramir

Thank you for this post.
I just hope you will stay and be a force of changing this place for the better.
Meanwhile, don't be surpised if you are persecuted or even called a "pro abort" for your very "radical" position.

reply from: sander

This isn't about showing kindness to a "wretched soul" and you know that.
This is a different situation. What Carol does is give a mixed message. I've all ready said giving the Bible is the right thing to do, show them the Way to the Way, Truth and the Life.
Do this as Jesus did, the woman at the well can be glossed over if anyone chooses, but the story still remains in the Bible and still remains the truth and still has power.

reply from: Faramir

This isn't about showing kindness to a "wretched soul" and you know that.
This is a different situation. What Carol does is give a mixed message. I've all ready said giving the Bible is the right thing to do, show them the Way to the Way, Truth and the Life.
Do this as Jesus did, the woman at the well can be glossed over if anyone chooses, but the story still remains in the Bible and still remains the truth and still has power.
What is the point of the story of the woman at the well?
Jesus was KIND to her! He greatly honored her by breaking with custom and talking to a woman--and in her class, and he gave her the greatest honor of revealing his mission through HER.
If we are going to follow this example, then that is what Carole is doing. She is bringing Jesus to these women--not Sander's holier-than-thou words of condemnation.

reply from: Faramir

The Woman at the Well:
">http://blog.nowyouknowmedia.co...-woman-at-the-well/[/q
I think that what Carolemarie and her friends are doing is very much in line with what Jesus did for the woman at the well, and alson in acting in accord with what the woman did, which was to spread the Good News.

reply from: nancyu

The attitudes which are so quick to forgive abortion are WRONG. These attitudes do grave harm to any movement toward achieving full personhood for the unborn.
NO ONE KNOWS if GOD will forgive. OUR JOB IS NEITHER TO CONDEMN NOR TO FORGIVE. OUR JOB IS TO TELL THE TRUTH. Abortion is murder of an innocent child. A PERSON.
Handing out goody bags to post abortive women is JUDGEMENT that is not carolemarie's or anyone's to make. You don't know what is in their hearts. You may help a few, but you are sending the WRONG MESSAGE TO MANY.
Carolemarie: I understand that you believe that you have been saved. I fear that you may have instead been deceived. You are helping the wrong team, honey.
An unborn child is a person. Unless we start treating them like persons, they won't be recognized as persons by everyone. I'm sorry for you poor bleeding hearts churchmouse and carolemarie. STOP AIDING THE SLAUGHTER OF OUR YOUNG and I will be the first in line to hug you, and help all of your pain go away.

reply from: churchmouse

Yes it is, if you are a Christian its all about planting seeds, spreading Gods word and loving especially loving your enemy. It's about calling sin what sin really is. Its all about holding people accountable, especially to the Word. Women know what abortion is. They might not know specifically about fetal develpment but they know. Abortion is not coffee table conversation. No one talks about the abortion they had. But down the line, sooner or later most women come to terms especially emotionally with what they have done. For me I battled depression and suicidal thoughts. You dont ear about all the suffering women because most do not want anyone to know. So theysuffer in silence. God knows their hearts and He knows ours. You might think what Carol does is wrong, but God knows differently. He knows her heart is right and that she is planting seeds with lost women.
Do you think carol is there for the fun of it? I live in Arizona, we stand in front of PP clinics in the summer. Do you have any idea how hot it is in Phoenix in the summer? We do this because we regret the abortions we had. We love God and believe that this is the ministry He wants us to do. We both have been there. Have you? You criticize what she does........what do you do? What do you do to help reach the lost?
You just dont get it nancy do you?
Do you claim to be a Christian? Because you certainly do not sound like one.
You obviously think violence is the way. Have you ever killed anyone connected to abortion......the woman that has had one, the abortionist? If you are so passionate about punishment and condemnation, then why not kill someone then. Go do it if that is what you think is right?
Do you think someone should kill carol and I? Thats what you really think dont you?
We do know God forgives because the scriptures are as clear on this as they are about calling sin sin. If anyone, (just not you) asks, repents and accepts Christ they will be saved. Jesus said, I am the Only Way. Not "a way." but the only way. It is not up to you to save, or judge someones heart. In fact nancy, God says you do not even have the right to judge your own heart. He did command you however to love. And you are NOT DOING OR SHOWING THAT HERE. I am gonna pray for you and others here whose hearts have been so hardened.
And you have the gall to question whether she is saved? You are pathetic, absolutely pathetic. In fact I am not only going to pray for you, I'm going to ask one of my Bible studies to pray for you.
You dont understand anything here except how to hurt someone. Satan comes to divide and conquer, he has you in his grips. He has decieved you nancy into thinking that the work carol is doing is wrong.
Yes an unborn child is a person and God loves them, like he loves us. Just because there are people like carol doing outreach, does not mean she thinks less of the unborn. I love you in Christ nancy. I feel sorry for you because you obviously need love. But I believe God is on our side. If Carol can reach one woman.......that woman could reach others, and they can reach even more. It starts with one...........that is how change takes place.
I am so so sorry for you nancy. You obviously have issues. Why dont you talk to God about it. If you do not have a Bible, I'd be happy to send you one.
We are not aiding the enemy. If you think people like you will stop us, think again. When you put on the armor of God........its amazing what you can do. Every bible that carol hands out is an outreach of love. It is spreading the gospel and doing it in a kind way. Every woman knows after she gets this ..........what it means. It says please read the Word. It says, you might not now but you might later, suffer from what you did. It says God forgives and He will forgive you too if you ask.

reply from: joe

I always wondered how "Christians" justified the Jewish Holocaust while the Jews were being killed. You churchmouse would have said the same thing to other Christians regarding the Nazis. Give them love, give them chocolates, they will "turn around". After 6 million were killed, how were they stopped...with love?
This is not personal sin...there is a victim, an innocent child ripped apart then disposed of like trash. How dare you defend the unrepentant murderers, by doing that you show hate to the innocent victim.
How dare you act like Jesus, telling us CM is forgiven (did Jesus give you that authority?), it is between God and her. I judge her by her words and she would let the innocent die, clearly she did not repent.
You are the one that needs prayer, churchmouse.

reply from: churchmouse

Christianity hinges on the fact that Christ, came, died for our sins, and rose again.
It is by GRACE that we are saved.
Where does God's grace begin? It begins with our impossibility. He is perfect, we are not.
What is impossible with man IS possible with God.
I just searched the scriptures.
We as Christian have EVERY RIGHT to judge believers behavior and actions. We are not however responsible for the final evaluation of anyone's character, including our own.
God alone has this authority.
"For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord." 1 Corinthians 4:4
God tells us to: "Rescue those being led away to death, hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say "But we knew nothing of this," does not He who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?'
This is a wonderful sermon, please read it.
http://www.trinitycrc.org/sermons/pr24v11-12.html

"Now, I want you to notice that God asks less of us than He asks of Himself. We are told to rescue the innocent. We are told to rescue those who are unjustly condemned. God, on the other hand, rescues the guilty. In Christ He rescues those who are justly condemned. I am talking, of course, about you and me and every other sinner who believes in Jesus Christ. We are guilty in God's sight. We deserve condemnation. Yet, God rescues the perishing. Even, I must add, if we are guilty of abortion He provides rescue. Even if we are guilty of keeping silent He provides rescue. Even if we sit back and do nothing He provides rescue.
We are made in God's image. God's character went into our creation. So, like God, we are to rescue the perishing."
(Jude 1:22-23) "Be merciful to those who doubt; (23) snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy ...'
We should rescue those who are perishing.

reply from: sander

I hope you'll be more careful, Churchmouse. Accusing Nancy of wanting someone to kill you and Carol is a bit over the top and hardly demonstrating the Christian virtues you're slamming others for not demonstarting. See the double standard there? And I see precious little in your post that speaks of Christian love, except for the obligatory bits.
If you think Nancy is lost, maybe just as lost as any of the women who walk out of the killing fields you demonstrate at, maybe you should treat her with the same amount of understanding you do someone who just murdered their very own child?
If you're going to send her a Bible, don't forget the chocolate and tea, at the very least she hasn't murdered any children.

reply from: nancyu

Go pass out tea and scripture some where, just stay away from abortion clinics.

reply from: nancyu

You are not obliged to respect or even acknowledge an unjust law that allows for the murder of the unborn. Any law that allows for the killing of the unborn person is a lie. Any law that does not respect and acknowledge the personhood of the unborn in essense, does not exist. Contemplate that for a time and see if it does not make sense. It is mind opening and will open your whole perspective on defending the unborn.
We as pro-lifers must not only play by the rules, but by the correct set of rules. Then when you speak of abortion, you can speak as if a law truly has been broken.
Of course the law is unjust, but try calling the cops every time you hear about an abortion. Nobody will be arressted.
If it happened often enough, somebody might.

reply from: nancyu

Bible, yes. God doesn't white wash or sugar coat His Word, they can find healing and God Himself, if that's what they have a heart to do.
And there they can find the truth and it's the truth that will set them free, not a goody bag.
Yes, and that Bible is inside the gift bag! The bag is just a way to reach out.
And FYI, it works. They call for help in dealing with the abortion, they call to talk and we can share more with them. It is called reaching out in love.
There is something fundamentally wrong with giving a "gift bag" to someone who just murdered their child. Truth yes, gifts no.
You're more concerned with the woman than the child that just met his or hers untimely death in a way that would have made Hitler blush. You're more concerned with how YOU look than giving these women the TRUTH, all the while knowing it's the TRUTH that will set them free.
I think you need to re-read the story of the prodigal son. If someone had been handing him tea and chocolates in the pig pen, he would still be there.
Would you like it better if I call it an outreach packet?
Let me re-phrase that for you.
We give the women outreach packets, that have a bible, tracts, a mug and some tea bags and chocolate as well as some other Christian information and links to post abortion healing programs.
Typical tactic of the pro aborts, change the words to try to hide the truth. This is not Christian Carolemarie!

reply from: nancyu

My feelings for you exactly.
Stop the presses!
This sounds mighty close to CM judging!
Experience trumps opinion everytime. How can you possibly tell me what will work if you never have done it? Why should her opinion be worth anything when it is based on nothing except speculation? If Nancy had actually had some experience in reaching out to women at abortion clinics, then I would listen to what she had to say worked for her. This is the post abortion outreach part of the ministry.
Truth trumps lies.
(Ephesians 2:8,9) For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
(John 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

reply from: churchmouse

I justify nothing, that is what you do not get. I am the first to admit my sin. Carol admits hers as well. Would you Joe? Have you ever sinned? Or are you perfect and without sin?
I would have talked to the Nazis the same way I would have talked to any other sinner. How would Christ have handled it Joe had He been there? Did Jesus live in a time that was perfect? Were their murderers? What did He do? Did He stop the violence of His day? Did he show, love and compassion or hate?
I do NOT DEFEND ANY WOMAN THAT KILLS THAT MURDERS HER UNBORN CHILD. I will say it again Joe since it takes you longer to get. I am pro-life, even in the case of rape. I believe anyone that walks into an abortion mill, premeditates murder.
Abortion is unfortunately legal in our country. We are expected to follow the law or else face imprisonment. Should all those that are pro-life ban together and start a mass murder ourselves? Is that the answer?
What do you do Joe to help this cause? Is it just lip service, and finger pointing for you or do you do actually do something? You seem to be so hateful against this particular sin, are you also outraged at homosexual sin, infidelity, rape, murder? Or are the worst sinners the women that choose abortion?

It's much more convenient to judge ME by Gods standards than it is to hold yourself accountable isnt it? But Joe, to break one spiritual law is to lose all perfection.
The Bible tells us that "There are none righteous,no not even one." This means Joe that we all fall short of Gods expectations. Exactly why Christ paid the price for our sin.
Funny that people often times try to play God by judging others. if you know the scriptures you would know that this is considered a sin.
Let God be the judge and pray for those who are lost, dont condemn them.
Joe a few questions for you.
Do you think that Carol and I should be labeled with our past sin...chained to the abortions that we had? Should we be stoned? Tarred and feathered. Should we wear a scarlet letter around our necks for the rest of our lives?
Actually I do wear a label everytime I stand with a sign in a public place. I gladly put that sign on.
I hate to burst your bubble, but God forgave us when we repented and accepted Him.
Just remember Joe that if you commit any sin you are guilty of sin. But God can save.....He can restore.
I pray that the women that get Carols packages, read the Word and realize some day in the quietness of the day that the act they did was wrong, it was in fact murder. I pray they would be convicted and stand up for innocent life in the womb. And especially that they would accept Christ and show others the love that they found in Him.

I am trying to act like Christ and what He told us ALL TO DO. I judge no heart, I judge actions. Only God knows our hearts. If in fact what Carol said is true..... she repented, changed her life, accepted Christ, then she is saved. Now do I know she did this, no. Like I said, only God knows. You could profess to be a Christian as well.......and not be one at all, you might be one of those Christians "in name only."
I can plant seeds, only God saves.
You are the one that is judging hearts here Joe, and you have no right. You are the one that is NOT showing love. You like Nancy like to throw stones, big ones. Why? It must make you feel powerful.
And Joe, please do pray for me, thank you. Everyone needs prayer and if your prayer is right and sincere God will hear your words. If it isnt then I pray He will set you straight.

reply from: joe

Beautiful sermon. Thank you for the link.

reply from: nancyu

That would be lovely CMs. I will be looking forward to it in the mail, I'm sure that would definitely save my soul!!!
Unless, you don't think I am worthy of God's grace??

reply from: carolemarie

How on earth is it not Christian to share the gospel with someone?

reply from: churchmouse

I asked a legitimate question, that obviously you dont want to answer.
You people are so over the top with hatred towards carol and myself for our abortions, that i get the distinct impression that you think we deserve to be dead.
What do you think? Come on, have the guts and answer it.
I bet Nancy will say yes when she responds.
It was not a mean question. That is the impression I am getting from most of you here.
You are different than I first thought.
I even said, that i loved her in Christ, or do you just read selectively?
I love all of you in Christ. But you fail to see the speck in your own eyes.
I do NOT DEFEND anyone that murders their unborn. I call it what it is. We just differ on how one talks to people that have done it.
You obviously want to throw stones and show hatred.......I believe we should speak in kindness and love, so much so that they want what we have........and that is Christ.
You guys seem to forget Him. He commanded us, to love. Its not a suggestion, its is a direct command. Now if yellling, and screaming, and throwing stones, is your style, I do not see how this emulates how Christ said to behave.
About nancy.......she is here for one reason IMO. Because she has so much hatred in her heart for woman that have had abortions that she has to vent some way. I bet she does nothing in real life for pro-life causes.
She rarely answers questions that people ask her she is to busy condemning.
She obviously avoids me because she is afraid of answering my questions. Maybe she cant handle it.
Who knows, she is just a hateful person from all appearances.

reply from: churchmouse

They obviously cant share it........you cant share something you dont know.

reply from: nancyu

How on earth is it not Christian to share the gospel with someone?
You said this:
Leave out the tea and chocolate, and the mug, and I am all for it.

reply from: carolemarie

It really isn't. Sin is sin and the solution is God. I was suprised to find out they were just as wretched and just as hurting as the other women we work with.
Everything we tell them is biblically based. And what we do is biblically based.
Women generally are suprised that I am nice to them. They think all Christians hate them and so does God. I certainly don't condone the abortion, AND THEY KNOW THAT since before they went in I was pleading with them to change their minds, but they do realize I care about them since the protesters have gone, the clinic escorts have gone, but me and Jesus are waiting for them.

reply from: churchmouse

Are you a Christian? I asked you once before and you did not respond. I ask because the scriptures say you must talk to believers different than unbelievers.
The book won't save you, Christ will !!!!!!!
Everyone is worthy. Christ came for everyone. EVERYONE.
Everyone has the chance for eternal salvation with God.

reply from: sander

CM said
See there, you accuse me of not reading when I can do the exact same thing.
Did you not read where I said giving them a Bible and perhaps a track on forgiveness was a good thing?
But, tending to their poor hurt bodies after having murdered their own child is appaling in my view.
Their bodies are bruised and hurting because that's a price paid in undergoing a medical procedure that rips to shreds their very own child.
There is a CHILD in this mix, please don't forget that.
Giving them tea and treats sends a mixed message, no matter how you slice it.
Giving them the Word of God leaves the message sent, up to Him.
I don't see where God sent messengers to the pig pen with food and comforts for the prodigal son. He would still be there if that was the case.
The blood of the innocent cries out to God, please remember this. Let God's Word do the talking and the work.

reply from: nancyu

I asked a legitimate question, that obviously you dont want to answer.
You people are so over the top with hatred towards carol and myself for our abortions, that i get the distinct impression that you think we deserve to be dead.
What do you think? Come on, have the guts and answer it.
I bet Nancy will say yes when she responds.
It was not a mean question. That is the impression I am getting from most of you here.
You are different than I first thought.
I even said, that i loved her in Christ, or do you just read selectively?
I love all of you in Christ. But you fail to see the speck in your own eyes.
I do NOT DEFEND anyone that murders their unborn. I call it what it is. We just differ on how one talks to people that have done it.
You obviously want to throw stones and show hatred.......I believe we should speak in kindness and love, so much so that they want what we have........and that is Christ.
You guys seem to forget Him. He commanded us, to love. Its not a suggestion, its is a direct command. Now if yellling, and screaming, and throwing stones, is your style, I do not see how this emulates how Christ said to behave.
About nancy.......she is here for one reason IMO. Because she has so much hatred in her heart for woman that have had abortions that she has to vent some way. I bet she does nothing in real life for pro-life causes.
She rarely answers questions that people ask her she is to busy condemning.
She obviously avoids me because she is afraid of answering my questions. Maybe she cant handle it.
Who knows, she is just a hateful person from all appearances.
You are judging my heart? I don't respond to nonsense, sorry.

reply from: nancyu

Are you a Christian? I asked you once before and you did not respond. I ask because the scriptures say you must talk to believers different than unbelievers.
The book won't save you, Christ will !!!!!!!
Everyone is worthy. Christ came for everyone. EVERYONE.
Everyone has the chance for eternal salvation with God.
Tell that to the woman who just exited the abortion clinic.

reply from: joe

This is not the issue at hand. We are all sinners, like I said before this is not just personal sin, there is a victim.

As a Christian, are you saying that what we did to stop the massacre of the Jews was not justified? Are you saying that being a Christian, I must let someone kill my child, turn around and serve him tea while my child's flesh is still warm? I have to say again, it is not hate for the sinner but love for the unborn that the truth must be proclaimed.

This is what separates you from Carolemarie, you still speak the truth.

I pray it is not.
I am not judging you for your abortion, I never have. Those who do not speak the truth about this slaughter is the issue. We must treat this sin as murder, that is what abortion is. We must be consistent in our words and equate the born with the unborn. If Carolemarie would not give her "gift bag" to Paul Hill while the assassins flesh was still warm, then she is a hypocrite.
The love of God is there for all repentant sinners. I despise the fact that I need to judge a Christians words, there is no feeling of power. I am showing love to the ones that need it, the ones that will die today...by their own mothers approval. It is those that are being led to the slaughter that I speak for and just maybe the truth will save one. Condoning this slaughter by loving the unrepentant sinner is not love for the least of these. And if your prayers "set me straight", I would welcome it. To live without care for the unborn would definitely make my day easier.

reply from: sander

No, you didn't ask a legitimate question and you asked it out of anger.
You're angry because some disagree with the mixed message that is being sent by catering to the woman's comforts after killing her own child.
I only hate the sin of murderering a child. I have never expressed hatred for you nor Carol. Not once have I ever mentioned any abortions nor questioned hers or yours salvation and sincere repentence.
But, I understand why you're blinded to this, because you're angry.
I'm angry too, I'm angry that a mixed message is being sent and it's watering down the Gospel. Let God's Word do the work, let God's mercy and justice work on the hearts of these women who have just killed their child.
You don't deserve to be dead anymore than the 4,000 children that will be dead by the end of the day.
Somehow, the child always seems to get lost and seems to be forgotten.
It's their blood that is crying out to God, not the shed blood of the mother who just willingly killed her child. Let's not forget that.
It is mean, because it's coming from an obvious anger on your part.
Now I'm different. So you've judged me on my differing opinion on giving treats and calling it a "gift bag". You call it demonstrating God's love to give treats and then judge me with harsh words. There's a double standard operating here, I hope you see that.
You're judging a long standing situation without having been here that long.
You think we should speak in kindness and love, good. How about speaking that same kind of love here with those you disagree with and who disagree with the issue at hand?
I've not thrown stones, I've simply expressed my oposition to sending a mixed message to the women who just aborted their child, the child that was created in the very image of God.
Mote, beam, are you seeing the picture? You've just accused me of not loving, but screaming and yelling. I haven't yelled at anyone. I've disagreed with the mixed message being sent.
Send the message of hope, restoration, forgivness, and love within God's Word. Leave the comforts to God to give at the right time.
You don't know if any of this is the case.
I feel bad that this subject has led you to such harsh condemnation of someone you barely know.
For my part in it, I ask forgiveness.

reply from: nancyu

So why do you advocate handing them tea and chocolate? Why not go give some to someone who murders a born child? Have you visited any of them in prison?
I'll bet Scott Peterson could use some spiritual healing. Just think, he is going to have to live with those murders on his conscience for the rest of his life!

reply from: churchmouse

Hey nancy........if abortion was illegal........we would have police arresting and closing down abortion clinics all over the country.
You obviously nancy do not read the experts in this field and what they have to say. Have you ever heard of Janet Folger, Randy Alcorn, Mark Crutcher? Look them up. They would laugh at your statement.
If the act of abortion is not legal.......then what was Roe?
I do not know how you keep calm.......It is obvious that you show the love of Christ. And Jesus will help you. You do not stand there alone. He said, I will be with you ALWAYS. I am sure Paul while in prison thought about that too.
The child is the reason we go there.
carol......I've been thinking about it.......why don't you give them a bottle of water and bread. I dont think what you are giving is wrong.......and God knows your intentions so it doesnt matter what ANYONE says.
Jesus said, "Give ye them to eat," "Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?"
Everyone that took the nurishment was a sinner. The simple food passed round by the hands of the disciples contained a whole treasure of lessons. Every one of the disciples were sinners.
Give ye them to eat.
"The Lord says, "Give, and it shall be given unto you." "He that soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he that soweth with blessings shall reap also with blessings. . . . And God is able to make all grace abound unto you; that ye, having always all sufficiency in everything, may abound unto every good work; as it is written,--
http://www.benabraham.com/html/give_ye_them_to_eat_.html


nancy you spin it anyway you want......refusing to answer simple questions speaks volumes. You obviouslly cant answer them and for good reason.
nancy, do you judge carols heart?
Oh I do I do. Curious what do you do? Or do you just wave from your car?
I have even held a woman and cried with her. Unlike probably what you would do had you ever gone to a clinic. Kicking her to the curb is just more your style. right? Or is that to hard of a question to answer. LOL

Are you embarrassed to stand up for Christ? I asked if you were a Christian nancy?

reply from: sander

Chuchmouse said,
By giving "gifts" to the mother who just willfully murdered her own child it relegates the child out of the picture.
God has never given a mixed message, but the bread and water may be a good idea. As long as it's representing the Bread of Life and the Living Water along with the Word that would give the message these women need.

reply from: nancyu

.
The most truthful answer I can give to this question is that I am not sure.
If Sander, faithman, 4given, joe and Augustine represent what it means to be Christian, then I hope that I am.
If you and carolemarie represent what it means to be Christian, then I hope that I am not.

reply from: churchmouse

We are all sinners. And when people sin usually there is a victim. Sin spashes and it sucks people in.
Then joe, if you think the slaughter of the unborn is like what happen to the Jews, then what are you doing to stop it?
I have asked you over and over for an answer to this question. nancy conveniently always pleads the 5th......so she wont answer.....so far no takers.
If what nancy says, abortion is illegal and the way to stop this is violence .....THEN WHAT ARE YOU DOING? Why arent you out killing people that are doing this?
What do you do at abortion clinics? do you abide by the law and stay back so far. Or do you get up in the womans face, and physically try to stop her from going in. Talk is cheap..........WHAT DO YOU DO?
if you are that passionate, and like nancy think abortion is illegal.........what do you do to stop the slaughter?
I said this............
Carol believes this as well. Our postion and our style as how to talk to these women is the same.
In a way you are. Maybe you are judging my actions as you say.......but deep down I think it is different if you were honest.
I speak the truth about this issue because I have been there on every level. I havent been here that long, but from every post I have read about carol......she feels the same way. She is trying to make a difference. If you think what she is handing out is wrong........then tell her in kindness. You think nancy does this? LOL
You bash her for clearly what are good intentions on her part.
You are right.....it is available to all. But satan is clearly laughing at what is happening on this board and with the division here. He counts on dividing people, and he loves to pit Christian against Christian.
Had nancy said in kindness......."carol, wouldnt a different choice of goodies be better, I like your bible and tract idea but......let me give you a few ideas...."
Did she speak,( or anyone else that was opposed to what she was doing).....in kindness taking into consideration the kind act that carol intended it to be? the cost alone of providing bibles and tracts would be costly.
Reaching out to woman who aborted their unborns, is NOT CONDONING the slaughter. It does not minimize the act that was done.
What should happen as women exit the facility? Tell us what you think should happen if anything?
Should we throw rocks, flip them off, call them murderers? makes things so traumatic they might even take their own lives later on in the day? Is that what Christ would want?
The issue is the unborn child, the little ones being dismembered alive. But the bigger picture is Christ and saving those that are lost. These women are lost. Christ would want them saved.
And sander to be honest I am angry. But for you its ok and perfectly acceptable if nancy is angry right? I am angry that carol is literally mocked for trying to do a good thing, angry that none of you can see that.
God is the only one that can save sander. He is the only one that can forgive somethign as horrible as abortion. We need to tell woman this. And we need to educate women to let them know what they are doing is murder.
I work the booths weekly at events. The majority of the public (I include pregnant woman as well), do NOT know about fetal development. They do NOT know that the heart starts beating at around 20 days, that brain waves can be detected the first trimester. I use the heart and 20 days, to shock them. Of course at Right To Life, we believe life starts at fertilization, so any child taken is murder.
We need to educate. If more women saw a sonogram before the abortion, there would be less abortion.

I agree. Our laws set people up to believe that. The child doesnt matter and the father whose child will be slaughtered doesnt matter. Only the woman that courts give the right to kill, matters.
Are you saying here there are different levels of Gods love? He loves the innocent child in the womb but does not love also the sinner, the woman that did it?
The woman needs God, she is also lost. She doesnt matter to God? I did matter and it took many years before I cried out to God But he was there, and he wrapped his loving arms around me when I came to Him. You seem to forget that God loves us alll.
the way you responded to carol surprised me yes. I see that my anger comes out not the way that I want it sometimes, I am human. But I do not think you even begin to see what Carol is trying to do. And you also excuse nancys outright anger towards carol.
As for nancy I think you know exactly how she comes across.
As for my anger, I will pray and ask God for help as I often do when I need it. I felt then that carol actions needed defending and with this group I still do.

reply from: nancyu

When do I get my tea and chocolate?

reply from: Faramir

Nancyu has used abortifacients. She did so in ingnorance, but she still used them and could easily have caused abortions to occur.
We can't be too hard on nancyu because of her ingorance just like we can't be too hard on the women who could easily have aborted out of ignorance or because of pressure.
You are really barking up the wrong tree this time sander, and your dig at the postabortive women is noted.

reply from: nancyu

Nancyu has used abortifacients. She did so in ingnorance, but she still used them and could easily have caused abortions to occur.
We can't be too hard on nancyu because of her ingorance just like we can't be too hard on the women who could easily have aborted out of ignorance or because of pressure.
You are really barking up the wrong tree this time sander, and it's disgusting.
When have I EVER asked for special handling faramir?

reply from: churchmouse

YES.......YES.........YES.
THE GIFT OF LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. That is the big big picture.
Christ is the focus. That He can save.
What do you do to make a difference?
No His message has always been the same and will never change.
I would think that every woman that took one of Carols bags would really think about the intent of the giver. While sucking on the candy, God might make it taste bitter. Bitter because of the sin committed. With God all things are possible.
I would suspect that everytime the woman used the mug filled with drink, she would think about the giver. The love of the giver. It isnt a reward and no woman would think it is a reward. It would be a constant reminder to the woman that someone loves them despite what they did.
It makes me want to cry that the group here would demean a Christian woman who suffered over a past abortion, by telling her that she is wrong in the way it was done. That makes me sad, mad whatever you want to call it.
See sander read her response here.
Christian love? LOL
You might be duped by her sincerity but I can see right through her. She cant hide from God however. Her passion for the unborn is greater than the love of the gospel, I think she has it backwards dont you?

reply from: Faramir

The hypocricy and hatred that hides behind scrpiture verses is seen by more than you realize.

reply from: churchmouse

faramir, nancy used what?
I am new, could you explain this, I dont understand?

reply from: nancyu

YES.......YES.........YES.
THE GIFT OF LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. That is the big big picture.
Christ is the focus. That He can save.
What do you do to make a difference?
No His message has always been the same and will never change.
I would think that every woman that took one of Carols bags would really think about the intent of the giver. While sucking on the candy, God might make it taste bitter. Bitter because of the sin committed. With God all things are possible.
I would suspect that everytime the woman used the mug filled with drink, she would think about the giver. The love of the giver. It isnt a reward and no woman would think it is a reward. It would be a constant reminder to the woman that someone loves them despite what they did.
It makes me want to cry that the group here would demean a Christian woman who suffered over a past abortion, by telling her that she is wrong in the way it was done. That makes me sad, mad whatever you want to call it.
See sander read her response here.
Christian love? LOL
You might be duped by her sincerity but I can see right through her. She cant hide from God however. Her passion for the unborn is greater than the love of the gospel, I think she has it backwards dont you?
Sander, Have you been duped by my sincerity?

reply from: cracrat

Abortifacients. They are drugs or devices (UDI, morning after pill, etc.) that prevent implantation of a fertilised egg into the uterine wall thus preventing pregnancy. They are, in a manner of speaking, very early term abortions.

reply from: joe

Then joe, if you think the slaughter of the unborn is like what happen to the Jews, then what are you doing to stop it?
I have asked you over and over for an answer to this question. nancy conveniently always pleads the 5th......so she wont answer.....so far no takers.
If what nancy says, abortion is illegal and the way to stop this is violence .....THEN WHAT ARE YOU DOING? Why arent you out killing people that are doing this?
What do you do at abortion clinics? do you abide by the law and stay back so far. Or do you get up in the womans face, and physically try to stop her from going in. Talk is cheap..........WHAT DO YOU DO?
if you are that passionate, and like nancy think abortion is illegal.........what do you do to stop the slaughter?
Why did you ignore my question? "Are you saying that being a Christian, I must let someone kill my child, turn around and serve him tea while my child's flesh is still warm?"
This is worse than the Jewish Holocaust. There are 4000 innocent human beings slaughtered daily by their own mothers...sick. For you not to equate the unborn to the born makes me question your convictions.
Speaking the truth is what must be done. I truly believe we need to purify the movement, have Christians truly accept abortion for the sin it is. When the Christians wake up to this vile Holocaust there might be a chance for the unborn. You defending the murder of the innocent (denying it is worse than the Jewish Holocaust) shows how far away the mainstream Christians are from saving the unborn.
No one person can save them but when all the Christians yell "murder" on the rooftops that the nation cannot ignore it...the unborn might have a chance.

reply from: Faramir

She has admitted to using birth control pills, which can cause implantation failure. That's why the vast majority of prolifers I've encounter oppose them and refer to them as "abortifacients," since they cause an abortion.
And since you are new, I will tell you something from my own experience, but do as you see fit--it will be talking like a brick wall to some of the posters here--so don't let them make you question your sanity--they have the problem and not you--no matter how many out-of-context scripture verses they throw at you.

reply from: sander

The saying goes, "perception is reality". You percieve that she is being mocked, I didn't see that. But, to be fair, CM has done her share of mocking on these boards. I've been the brunt of such dealings. So, which one of us is right? But, what difference does that make anyway? CM knows how to defend herself and so does Nancy. I only responded to your over the top accusation that she wishes you and CM dead. When I accuse a prolife Christian with such harshness and brazen judgement, please correct me.
I never said anyone else but God can save and forgive. You are totally correct, it's not my place to forgive someone who has murdered their child before they have repented and it's not my place to give them gifts after doing such a deed.
It is our place to give them the un-varnished truth, chocolate, tea and mugs waters down the truth, imo. And I am entitled to that opinion, trust God to convict me if I'm wrong.
Your efforts are to be commended and I do so here and now.
I don't know how you could even intimate that by what I said I don't believe God loves all sinners and has different levels of love????
I think you read into things entirely too much and perhaps that's where the problems are arising from?
Yes, the woman needs God. That's what I've been saying all along, she needs the Word, she needs to know the truth so the Truth can set her free. Cater to her soul and leave her body comforts to God at the right time.
There are "seasons" for such things, right times, right places.
Give her the Word, the Word is sharper than any two edged sword, piercing asunder....I know you know the Word of God. Give her John 3:16, but don't give her a mixed message.
Your idea of bread and water, I feel, is brilliant and more in keeping to what message should be sent.
CM and I are capable of communicating with each other and I'm just as susceptable to human emotions as you are.
I have commended Carol on her efforts in the prolife movement, they should be applauded, but giving the mothers a mixed message struck me wrong. Am I not allowed to express my opinion?
Do you want me to try and have her banned? I know her to be a resonable person and to correct herself when she feels the need. I've seen her apologize to people here and try and be fair. Fairer than she is being treated now.
No one is stopping you, by all means express yourself in anyway you deem necessary.

reply from: carolemarie

Nobody ever said that you should do this outreach.
I cut you slack because of the child that you lost. I realize that you are deeply hurt by this and you lash out in your pain, so I pretty much ignore most of your remarks.
Speaking the truth is part of what needs to be done. Not the only part.
And nobody is defending the death of babies!

reply from: nancyu

Correction... If people BELIEVED abortion was illegal. we would have police arresting and closing down abortion clinics all over the country.
It IS illegal, many don't believe it yet, including you.
It is a fact that abortion is illegal
First there is "thou shalt not murder" for anyone who believes that "silly" law.
Then there is the 14th amendment to the US Constitution:
Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
An unborn child is a person.

reply from: nancyu

Abortifacients. They are drugs or devices (UDI, morning after pill, etc.) that prevent implantation of a fertilised egg into the uterine wall thus preventing pregnancy. They are, in a manner of speaking, very early term abortions.
I used birth control pills and an IUD. These can be abortifacient. I am not proud of this. I didn't know they COULD be abortifacient. I still do not KNOW if they were. (Are you happy, you've heard my confession. I don't need anyone to sympathize with me or excuse me.)
I am happy to share this in order to spread the information to others who may also be uninformed about what these may do.

reply from: churchmouse

I see. So nancy by all accounts could have had many abortions, and not known it.
I guess carol and I are not alone.
Birth control is what you call them abortifacients.
I wonder then, if nancy goes and pickets pharmacys where they hand out birth control? hmmmmm.

reply from: joe

Nobody ever said that you should do this outreach.
I cut you slack because of the child that you lost. I realize that you are deeply hurt by this and you lash out in your pain, so I pretty much ignore most of your remarks.
Speaking the truth is part of what needs to be done. Not the only part.
And nobody is defending the death of babies!
Ignoring that question.
Here is another one:
Would you give your "gift bag" to Paul Hill while the "Doctors" flesh was still warm? Or do you only care about the women that murder?
Btw, if you don't like my "style" ignore all of it, you know who I am here for.

reply from: Faramir

Abortifacients. They are drugs or devices (UDI, morning after pill, etc.) that prevent implantation of a fertilised egg into the uterine wall thus preventing pregnancy. They are, in a manner of speaking, very early term abortions.
I used birth control pills and an IUD. These can be abortifacient. I am not proud of this. I didn't know they COULD be abortifacient. I still do not KNOW if they were. (Are you happy, you've heard my confession. I don't need anyone to sympathize with me or excuse me.)
I am happy to share this in order to spread the information to others who may also be uninformed about what these may do.
You are using ignorance as an excuse, and I don't see any harm in that.
Why not give the same space to the postabortive woman who might not fully understand what she did, or who might have been pressured to do what she did?

reply from: nancyu

Nobody ever said that you should do this outreach.
I cut you slack because of the child that you lost. I realize that you are deeply hurt by this and you lash out in your pain, so I pretty much ignore most of your remarks.
Speaking the truth is part of what needs to be done. Not the only part.
And nobody is defending the death of babies!
Is there anything out of you that isn't a lie?
Do you realize what an insensitive remark this is?

reply from: joe

It is worse now. Not all are called to be like Paul Hill, those that denounce what he did as immoral shows who the cowards are. You are a coward to speak the truth CP.
I would have supported any hero during the Jewish Holocaust also. Unlike you who would have called the police to arrest those trying to save your ancestors lives.
This is a war of words and principles, nobody advocates violence just truth.

reply from: sander

YES.......YES.........YES.
THE GIFT OF LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. That is the big big picture.
Christ is the focus. That He can save.
What do you do to make a difference?
I'm confused as to why you are saying YES, Yes to what? Yes to the gifts, or yes to relegating the child out of the picture?
I've posted a lengthly list of what I do to make a difference, it pained me to do so, after all, the right hand shouldn't know what the left is doing, correct?
I've never felt the need, because of what I just said, to ask others what they DO. So, I don't understand why anyone feels the need to do so, except if they're trying to take a superior position and somehow that gives them rights others shouldn't have?
Okay...I agree.
Hmm, that seems an odd thing to want, God making the candy taste bitter. Why have to pray to God to do a miracle and not just let the miracle working of His Word to the job?
Maybe God can make what she puts in the mug taste bitter too?
It's a comfort at the very least, giving her a mug and tea to boot.
If only that the baby could have recieved even a small amount of comfort or even reminder that someone loved him or her. That's what my focus is primairaly, the baby.
It makes me want to cry to see the babies killed, to the tune of 4,000 babies every day. I reserve my tears for them and my anger and saddness stems from their untimely, horrendous deaths.
Christian love? LOL
"See"? That's very childish, I'm capable of reading her responses without you pointing them out.
You've shown an inability to not understand you are doing the same thing you're accusing others of doing.
I'm not duped. And I resent your charge that I might be.
I'm glad you've been given the gift to see thru others, don't you think maybe some have been given that same gift? Or is the very idea rather preposterous?

reply from: nancyu

Correction... If people BELIEVED abortion was illegal. we would have police arresting and closing down abortion clinics all over the country.
It IS illegal, many don't believe it yet, including you.
It is a fact that abortion is illegal
First there is "thou shalt not murder" for anyone who believes that "silly" law.
Then there is the 14th amendment to the US Constitution:
Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
An unborn child is a person.
The SCOTUS does not agree that the Constitution says the unborn are "persons," and neither do a large part of our population. They define the word philosophically. Abortion is legal, and to deny this is the height of delusion and serves no purpose.
You say that I am a liar if I acknowledge this reality, but that is itself a lie, and only emphasizes your delusion. I may be many things, but a "liar" is not one of them...Anyone who calls me a liar is one, because I am not. Nancy, you are a liar. You need to hear this truth.
You claim that you DO agree that unborn children are persons. SCOTUS can believe what it will. It doesn't change the FACT that unborn children ARE PERSONS.
You still don't believe your own beliefs; you need SCOTUS to tell you what to believe?

reply from: churchmouse

Joe said, "Why did you ignore my question? "Are you saying that being a Christian, I must let someone kill my child, turn around and serve him tea while my child's flesh is still warm?"
Not at all. But I wonder how Christ would want us to handle it? What do you think?
Tonight I am going to do a deductive bible study on war. I'll let you know. I need to read the scriptures to answer this one.
Joe said, "This is worse than the Jewish Holocaust. There are 4000 innocent human beings slaughtered daily by their own mothers...sick. For you not to equate the unborn to the born makes me question your convictions."
It is horrible and just as horrific I agree. There are more slaughtered than that around the world. We are not talking aobut the unborns just in America but all around the world. And I give equal weight to the unborn as I do people.
Joe said, "Speaking the truth is what must be done. I truly believe we need to purify the movement, have Christians truly accept abortion for the sin it is. When the Christians wake up to this vile Holocaust there might be a chance for the unborn. You defending the murder of the innocent (denying it is worse than the Jewish Holocaust) shows how far away the mainstream Christians are from saving the unborn."
We need to get people saved Joe. That is the most important part. If every Christian did what God COMMANDED by spreading the gospel, if every pastor stood up at the pulpit and preach to congregations about life and abortion, and stood on the truth of Gods Word concerning this........there would be less abortion.
If we as a society valued all life......and treated all creation as Gods handiwork, there would be less abortion. Christ talked about hell far more than He ever talked about heaven. Why? Because people without Christ are going to hell. There is only one sin, that will prevent one from spending eternity with God and that is denying Christ and what He came and did for us.
Murder wont keep you from heaven, adultry, homosexuality.........denying Christ will.
We need to reach these women and lead them to Christ. Carol is doing that first hand. she is making the effort.
What are you doing?
Ya know I have asked all of you what your doing to make a difference and I have not seen one answer. Are you putting everything you believe into practice, so just talking about it?
Where have I defend the murder of the innocent? Provide evidence Joe?
Cant you read? I call abortion what it is. I will state this one more time, since you obviously cant stop hating long enough to get my stance.
I am pro-life. I believe abortion is first degree premeditated murder.
I give personhood to the little one in the womb, from fertilization. They are loved by God equally, the same as a person that has already been born. They deserve the same rights and protection by our government.
I also think euthanasia is wrong, as well as embroynic stem cell research. I am agaisnt cloning as well.
I think the morning after pill and all the birth control pill cause abortions.
I MURDERED MY OWN CHILD AND I TAKE RESPONSIBLITY FOR IT. Scriptures tell me I have been forgiven.
I am a Christian saved by faith in Jesus Christ. It was His grace that saved me, no work that I did.
I believe that I should love like Christ commands me to do. Even love my enemy and those that mock who I am.
How many times do you want me to say this?
"No one person can save them but when all the Christians yell "murder" on the rooftops that the nation cannot ignore it...the unborn might have a chance."
How is this going to happen when the majority of Christians in this country are Christians in name only? We have a cultrue where the majority are trying to live without God.

reply from: cracrat

Abortifacients. They are drugs or devices (UDI, morning after pill, etc.) that prevent implantation of a fertilised egg into the uterine wall thus preventing pregnancy. They are, in a manner of speaking, very early term abortions.
I used birth control pills and an IUD. These can be abortifacient. I am not proud of this. I didn't know they COULD be abortifacient. I still do not KNOW if they were. (Are you happy, you've heard my confession. I don't need anyone to sympathize with me or excuse me.)
I am happy to share this in order to spread the information to others who may also be uninformed about what these may do.
I was just explaining to churchmouse what the term meant. What you have done in your past is for you to settle with yourself, your family, your God but not me.

reply from: nancyu

But I didn't like the idea. I think it is an awful, revolting, horrible idea, to reward someone as she exits an abortion clinic.
If God is the only one who can save, then what are you doing there?
The laws don't set people up to believe this. People like you do. An unborn child is a person, it is illegal to murder persons. Show me the law that says otherwise, I really want to see it.
Who was it who called me delusional??
How can you be "duped by sincerity"?? and more
Do I have it backwards? I don't know, I will have to see about that come judgment day. I'll be sure to let you know.

reply from: nancyu

She has admitted to using birth control pills, which can cause implantation failure. That's why the vast majority of prolifers I've encounter oppose them and refer to them as "abortifacients," since they cause an abortion.
And since you are new, I will tell you something from my own experience, but do as you see fit--it will be talking like a brick wall to some of the posters here--so don't let them make you question your sanity--they have the problem and not you--no matter how many out-of-context scripture verses they throw at you.
Are we making you question your sanity faramir? I certainly hope not. You are not insane, it's just taking you some time to adjust to the idea that an unborn child
IS A PERSON. Therefore, it is ILLEGAL to MURDER them.
(Don't worry about it, that brick wall you are sensing is only your skull, it will all sink in after a while.)

reply from: joe

I you truly believe this, I cannot deny that you love the unborn.
The problem occurs when words to not match these principles.

reply from: nancyu

Please do not give them chocolate and tea goody bags immediately upon exiting an abortion clinic.
Please wait at least 24 hours before offering any expression of comfort or sympathy. (No not even if she is in tears; she should be ignored completely.) Pray for her if you wish.
Please ensure that she is in need of sympathy before offering it.
Handing out Scripture and informational literature is fine,
But Please, please no chocolate and tea bags until after the woman has given birth to a (hopefully) healthy, and (definitely) living baby.
Clear enough?

reply from: sander

You may give them the Bible and any information that will lead them to the One who forgives and restores at any given moment in time.
You can even wrap it all up in pretty paper, tie a pretty ribbon around it or put it in a pretty bag with pretty tissue paper. Write God loves you, died for your sins and is ready to forgive upon repentance all over the packaging if you wish.

reply from: Faramir

You may give them the Bible and any information that will lead them to the One who forgives and restores at any given moment in time.
You can even wrap it all up in pretty paper, tie a pretty ribbon around it or put it in a pretty bag with pretty tissue paper. Write God loves you, died for your sins and is ready to forgive upon repentance all over the packaging if you wish.
I think this is the exact message they are sending.

reply from: sander

You may give them the Bible and any information that will lead them to the One who forgives and restores at any given moment in time.
You can even wrap it all up in pretty paper, tie a pretty ribbon around it or put it in a pretty bag with pretty tissue paper. Write God loves you, died for your sins and is ready to forgive upon repentance all over the packaging if you wish.
So, once she aborts, I can never give her candy?
What are you trying to do? Clog her arteries, give her diabetes? That seems a slow death wish for the woman.
Just give her the Truth, He'll give her candy in due time.

reply from: nancyu

DO NOT give post abortive women chocolate and tea goody bags immediately upon exiting an abortion clinic, OR ANYTHING WHICH COULD BE CONSTRUED TO BE A REWARD. (Handing out Scripture and informational literature is fine.)
WAIT A MINIMUM of 24 hours before offering any expression of comfort or sympathy. (Even if she is in tears; she should be ignored completely.) Pray for her if you wish.
ENSURE that she is in need of comfort and sympathy BEFORE offering it.
Absolutely NO chocolate and tea bags WHATSOEVER!! Until aftera woman has given birth to a (hopefully) healthy, and (definitely)LIVING baby.

reply from: nancyu

( if she gives birth to a baby concernedparent, or a baby faramir, she will need all the chocolate and tea, comfort and sympathy she can get.)

reply from: carolemarie

Sometimes I think you guys have lost your minds!
I intend to keep on passing out the bags just as they are. (But no chocolate in the summer, it melts and makes a mess.)
Candy will be in the bag as well as the mug and tea and postabortion help, tracts a little booklet by Max Lucado, a tract by anne Graham Lotz entitled "God will Forgive you" and a bible.
The bread and water idea was nice, but most of these women are not Christian and will miss the point. And if it is okay to give bread and water, why not tea?
I do wrap it up in pretty bags with ribbons and tissue paper. I hope they remember that someone cared enough to wait around till they left to offer them real help.
I do realise that alot of you are offended by the notion. But Jesus can be quite the stumbling block.... not one of these women deserve the bag, and not one of us deserved a Saviour....that is the wonderful thing about grace....

reply from: sander

The above two posts coming from un-believers.
You both have the right to post but others have the right to dismiss your ignorance on the subject.
So...you're both dismissed.
Edited: make that the three above posters.

reply from: cracrat

DO NOT give post abortive women chocolate and tea goody bags immediately upon exiting an abortion clinic, OR ANYTHING WHICH COULD BE CONSTRUED TO BE A REWARD. (Handing out Scripture and informational literature is fine.)
WAIT A MINIMUM of 24 hours before offering any expression of comfort or sympathy. (Even if she is in tears; she should be ignored completely.) Pray for her if you wish.
ENSURE that she is in need of comfort and sympathy BEFORE offering it.
Absolutely NO chocolate and tea bags WHATSOEVER!! Until aftera woman has given birth to a (hopefully) healthy, and (definitely)LIVING baby.
Exactly how did you come up with this set of rules? On what experience are you basing them?

reply from: GratiaPlena

Yes, because the first thing a woman thinks as soon as she gets that basket is "Oh, I think I'll get pregnant and have another abortion just so I can get some more of this chocolate and tea..."

reply from: joe

Nobody ever said that you should do this outreach.
I cut you slack because of the child that you lost. I realize that you are deeply hurt by this and you lash out in your pain, so I pretty much ignore most of your remarks.
Speaking the truth is part of what needs to be done. Not the only part.
And nobody is defending the death of babies!
Ignoring that question.
Here is another one:
Would you give your "gift bag" to Paul Hill while the "Doctors" flesh was still warm? Or do you only care about the women that murder?
Btw, if you don't like my "style" ignore all of it, you know who I am here for.
Ignoring the second question, CM you are a coward and a hypocrite. Would you give your "gift bag" to Paul Hill while the "Doctors" flesh was still warm? Or do you only care about the women that murder?

reply from: joe

This is a battle of words and truth. This is why the assassins are smart to kill behind concrete walls and grind up the bodies. They hide like cockroaches under legal protection which violates the inherent right to life.

reply from: Banned Member

The real key question behind the legality of abortion is: How much do we value women's rights and lives? Because focusing on the fetus always has dire legal and social consequences for women. It's also insulting to women because it usurps their moral decision-making, as well as their bodies and wombs. The best way by far to protect fetuses and children is to help pregnant women and mothers. When women have the necessary support and resources to raise kids, we can trust them to be good mothers. If women have liberty and equality, their mothering will also be willing, happy, and confident, which further benefits children. But as soon as we bestow special rights on fetuses, we separate them from their mothers and create an adversarial relationship that hurts both. For example, pregnant drug abusers tend to forego prenatal care entirely rather than risk arrest and prosecution. By protecting the interests of fetuses, we sacrifice women's rights and autonomy, and end up harming their children in the long run. Furthermore, it's logically impossible for two beings occupying the same body to exercise two competing sets of rights - one or the other has to go.
Tell me anyone, how would you respond to the person that wrote this rationalization for killing unborn children? Baby killers? Murderers? Genocidal maniacs? I think so.

reply from: joe

Fine label me a hero supporter, while I label you a traitor.

reply from: sander

I wish I had a dime for every time a Christian invoked the "divine authority" defense....
Would you be wealthy? I hope you'd consider giving those dimes to a crisis pregnancy center.
You actually DO something, right. You're not one of those who just wags a finger behind a computer screen, right. That seems to be the question most asked those who disagree with certain tactics within the prolife movement.

reply from: Banned Member

No one in scripture ever said the following to our Lord and Savior...
you're wasting your breath.
these people are so blinded and convinced they're right, you may has well just shoot them and get it over with.
the best cult deprogrammers have the hardest time deprogramming christians like these weirdos

reply from: sander

See the above bolded text for my response.
I would only add that the person who wrote this mangled bit sees the womb child as the least deserving of protections. Mother first, baby last and by last, dead.

reply from: churchmouse

And do you only care about the unborn and not the abortionist and woman? God cares about all of them. He came for everyone, that they would come to know and love Him.
God will deal with Paul Hill. He might have been saved, he might not have. No one really knows. His actions were wrong.
concernedparent we might disagree on a whole lotta stuff my friend but I agree with what you said here.
You think Paul Hill is a hero? You have got to be kidding. You wish people dead?
Have you ever heard of Bernard Nathanson?
" He later gained national attention by then becoming one of the founding members of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws, now known as NARAL Pro-Choice America. He worked with Betty Friedan and others for the legalization of abortion in the United States. Their efforts essentially succeeded with the Roe v Wade decision. He was also for a time the director of the Center for Reproductive and Sexual Health (CRASH), New York's largest abortion clinic. Nathanson has written that he was responsible for over 75,000 abortions throughout his pro-choice career."
"The development of ultrasound, however, in the 1970s led him to reconsider his views on abortion. He is now a staunch supporter of the pro-life movement. In 1984, he made the documentary The Silent Scream which showed an abortion from the perspective of ultrasound. His second documentary Eclipse of Reason dealt with late-term abortions. He has also stated that the numbers he once cited for NARAL concerning the number of deaths linked to illegal abortions were "false figures".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Nathanson

IT IS NEVER TO LATE FOR A SINNER TO COME TO KNOW CHRIST.
so let me get this straight.....you are pro-violence and killing when it comes to abortionists, abortionist wives, and the women who have abortions.......but you are going to let these HEROS do the dirty work and pay the price while you sit on your rear end and do nothing. Would you also have hid under your bed during the holocust?
Oh your passionate alright. Your just a big talker Joe. Did you tell me anything that you do for the pro-life cause? Did I miss it?

reply from: Banned Member

The following is what I posted to evoke the response that follows it...
I believe that women should uphold their dignity, by not giving themselves to sexual use by men. When a woman has an abortion, she makes sex an act or meaningless function, and to men, she makes her body an object for use. Abortion disgraces a woman, while life upholds her dignity.
Men and woman should view sex in the truth of it's proper place, a loving relationship, with procreative possibilities. That is, men and woman should have children in the spirit of love. When reproductivity is removed from sex, men and women make objects of each other and see children only as the perceived unfortunate outcome of chance encounters, rather than as the natural visible sign of their love for one another.
Abortion covers up tawdry acts that are hidden and to be ashamed of. Abortion covers up the lies of ones sexual life that have been divorced from any meaningful context. That is why the vast majority of abortions are had by unmarried women, or women who are not in committed relationships. These are woman who have been used for sex, and discarded along with their children. The man is just as guilty as the woman, but she bears the more tangible sign of poor judgement. No poor choice regarding sex however justifies the killing of the unborn child. The innocent child is guilty of nothing.
Abortion is the real enslaving lie. There is nothing liberating for a woman who gives herself to a man for sexual use, only to become pregnant and who is then faces with killing her own unborn child. Where there is life, at least there can be love.
The real key question behind the legality of abortion is: How much do we value women's rights and lives? Because focusing on the fetus always has dire legal and social consequences for women. It's also insulting to women because it usurps their moral decision-making, as well as their bodies and wombs. The best way by far to protect fetuses and children is to help pregnant women and mothers. When women have the necessary support and resources to raise kids, we can trust them to be good mothers. If women have liberty and equality, their mothering will also be willing, happy, and confident, which further benefits children. But as soon as we bestow special rights on fetuses, we separate them from their mothers and create an adversarial relationship that hurts both. For example, pregnant drug abusers tend to forego prenatal care entirely rather than risk arrest and prosecution. By protecting the interests of fetuses, we sacrifice women's rights and autonomy, and end up harming their children in the long run. Furthermore, it's logically impossible for two beings occupying the same body to exercise two competing sets of rights - one or the other has to go.
This was my response...
A woman does not have the right to kill an unborn child. Some people, baby killing liberal people, do not like to acknowledge that sex for women leads to motherhood. Women are not so equal to men that sex does not make them a parent. A woman carries her children, and that of her sex partner in her womb.
Abortion is immoral as the sex that so often results in that innocent new life in her womb. But some people do not like to think that women can engage in such licentious behavior or that such licentious behavior can be defined.
Again I say, the vast majority of abortions are had by women that are not in relationships with men, only rather men they thought is was interesting to have sex with at the time.
If women think that the unborn child is adversarial, they might think better before they have conveniant sex with men they do not love.
The right to live is not a special right, it the foundational right of a human being that all other rights are built upon. A woman and a child do not compete for rights. Each has the right to live. One however, the woman has an obligation to care for, even in her body, her child, the other. Your attempt as sounding logical is flawed.
A woman's body is designed for caring for an unborn child. It is the way her body is made and functions. Again, radical feminists would like us to think that they are no different from men. They are wrong and everyone knows they are wrong.
Perhaps they would be better equipped for equality if they simply had their reproductive organs removed and commit a kind of procreational suicide? But they want their cake and to eat it too. They want to have sex, divorce it from all morality and retain the right to kill their children too.
Sometimes you just have to call a baby killer, a baby killer.
I also added...
Any man that would or could use a woman for sex, or force her to validate her affections by having sex with him, should be shunned and dumped for the being the needy immature little man-child that he is.
Any man that cannot wait for a womans physical expression of love is not worthy of it.

reply from: joe

And do you only care about the unborn and not the abortionist and woman? God cares about all of them. He came for everyone, that they would come to know and love Him.
God will deal with Paul Hill. He might have been saved, he might not have. No one really knows. His actions were wrong.
Who is the one being ripped apart alive?
You ignored my question. Is it that hard to answer because of your hypocrisy?

reply from: joe

How many lives were saved that day? I wish protection for all innocent human life unlike yourself.

reply from: joe

You and all the other "kind" Christians that sing to our Lord in church while the river turns red with innocent blood are the very reason we have this Holocaust. Do not preach to me about saving the unborn while you dehumanize what is human life...hypocrite.
Speak the truth or just stay silent. Help the women, that is good but do not dilute the truth with your fake Christianity. You show no love to the most innocent.

reply from: churchmouse

She is handing out Bibles, what dont you get? The Bible is a love letter to us, it tells is how to live. Hopefully the women will read them and come to know God.
The unborn is dead. There is nothing anyone can do to bring them back. And once a woman realizes what she has done, only God can help her.
I never saw a list. I am not trying to make a superior position. A lot of people, moan and point fingers while others are out working on the front lines. If you are doing something to make a difference, then just say so.
This cause does not need lip service we need volunteers to reach out to people. We need people in the faces of our politiicians, clergy, abortion providers. We need people educating.
It's easy to sit back and do nothing. And for the people that do just that.......they dont even deserve to make comment on this IMO.
I look at it as a reminder of that day and what she did. It might take awhile, but it is a reminder, remembrance of the day she murdered her unborn child.
All things are possible with God. He uses us for different reasons. I believe he has put Carol where she is for a reason. And if Carol can reach even one woman for Christ........then all her work was worth it.
You know I am sick of you insinuating that I do not care for the unborn. You should see us at clinics, praying. We can't even pray some days, or read clearly from our bibles because we are crying so hard.
But I pray for every woman that walks into that clinic. That she realizes what she is doing. That if she makes the wrong decision, that she repents eventually and comes to know Christ. I did. Carol did. If nancy took birthcontrol, then she did too.
You think that we forget our unborn. You are cruel and insensitive. You have no clue whatsoever what it feels like inside to see graphic pictures. It is a reminder of what we did. But I carry my bible and it is a reminder to me how God changed my life. And God can use any woman that killed, for His Kingdom. So sorry you just dont get that fact.
You obviously are more about hating the sinner, than loving them. Funny.......do you consider yourself a sinner? Are you loved?
Me too. I remember that day, the building, the office, sitting in line, the room, the sound of the machine, the pain. Somedays its hard to breathe. And to know there are people like you out there that are glad I feel this way, that I am in pain.... oh that is comforting.
Friends here obviously don't question friends eh?
sander said, "I'm not duped. And I resent your charge that I might be.
I'm glad you've been given the gift to see thru others, don't you think maybe some have been given that same gift? Or is the very idea rather preposterous?"
I hope that if I am in error that a Christian friend would make me accountable to the Word. I am not perfect and I do not act like it. I am open in regards to my sin. Others here are not hesitant in the least to point fingers and seem so proud that they dont seem to sin.
I disagree with a lot of what concernedparent says. We were talking one day on here and he mentioned to me that a few things I said, upset him and the way I did it was wrong. I reread my posts and he was right. I am not here to belong to a group, or to play childish games, but to enjoy being around people that are working for life causes and to share stories about how the pro-life cause is gaining ground..
I call things as I see them, and will not remain luke warm over this issue or the gospel of Jesus Christ. If anyone can show me I am in error, please do.
Why is SCOTUS there nancy? What is their purpose? If they make law.......what are we supposed to do with the law, obey it or do our own thing?
If you think abortion is illegal.......then do by all means go out and test it out. And carol can send you a goodie bag in whatever prison you end up in. LOL

reply from: joe

How many lives were saved that day? I wish protection for all innocent human life unlike yourself.
The last claim we heard on this forum was that one mother decided not to abort after Hill killed two and wounded another, but we can't be sure she wouldn't have reconsidered anyway, since she was obviously predisposed to consider doing so.
I think it fair to say she might have been convinced not to abort even if Hill had not killed. It does happen. The other mothers most likely made a new appointment and got abortions while Hill sat in jail. His actions represented a tragic and unnecessary loss of life, including his own (which puts the count at possibly one life saved, and 3 lost). Hill's actions also helped spur legislation that makes it much more difficult to be an effective activist, so who knows how many more have died than if nobody had killed in the name of life? It could be in the hundreds of thousands....
I do not believe there is a valid argument to justify such a thing. Those who do are simply engaged in self righteous posturing. Joe says concrete walls prevent him from doing his perceived "duty" now, but before, it was all about a "calling." Walls did not stop Hill. Lack of conviction, fortunately, stops Joe. These people may be crazy, but most are not completely stupid...
We know for a fact on that day dozens were not executed. What happened following that event, nobody really knows.
This is hypothetical, you and I lack any concrete evidence on the effects but the fact remains dozens were saved that day. Would I ever do what Paul Hill did?...NO! But for me to listen to a bunch of cowards that lack the courage to tell the truth, that makes me sick. The truth remains that what he did is morally justified and for you to deny it simply shows your lack of conviction to the unborn.

reply from: nancyu

The Supreme Court of the United States interprets the law, they don't make the law. And which law are you speaking of? I am still waiting for you to show me the law that says it is legal to murder persons. Or a law that says an unborn child is NOT a person.
What does this mean? Is it illegal for me to believe abortion is murder? What would I go to jail for? How would you suggest I test it?

reply from: galen

It really isn't. Sin is sin and the solution is God. I was suprised to find out they were just as wretched and just as hurting as the other women we work with.
Everything we tell them is biblically based. And what we do is biblically based.
Women generally are suprised that I am nice to them. They think all Christians hate them and so does God. I certainly don't condone the abortion, AND THEY KNOW THAT since before they went in I was pleading with them to change their minds, but they do realize I care about them since the protesters have gone, the clinic escorts have gone, but me and Jesus are waiting for them.
---------------------------
get back to me in a couple of years ... when those same women are there for thier 2nd or third AB and want you to hold thier hand in thier grief...sorry kiddo this type of approach has an appalling track record.

reply from: nancyu

Abortifacients. They are drugs or devices (UDI, morning after pill, etc.) that prevent implantation of a fertilised egg into the uterine wall thus preventing pregnancy. They are, in a manner of speaking, very early term abortions.
I used birth control pills and an IUD. These can be abortifacient. I am not proud of this. I didn't know they COULD be abortifacient. I still do not KNOW if they were. (Are you happy, you've heard my confession. I don't need anyone to sympathize with me or excuse me.)
I am happy to share this in order to spread the information to others who may also be uninformed about what these may do.
I was just explaining to churchmouse what the term meant. What you have done in your past is for you to settle with yourself, your family, your God but not me.
Thank you, I have no problem with your comment cracrat. As I said, I'm not proud of it but I am willing to share if it helps someone else. So here you go.
(But I think we should try to agree in moderation)

reply from: Faramir

Let's see the statistics then. What are your sources?

reply from: nancyu

Did I ever say I was Jesus?
You asked for a clear list, I did my best to give you a clear list. If you have a better one, let's see it. Then I can tear yours down as you did mine, then I will go and sit back and feel good about myself making you feel bad, just like you are trying to do to me.

reply from: nancyu

So why do you advocate handing them tea and chocolate? Why not go give some to someone who murders a born child? Have you visited any of them in prison?
I'll bet Scott Peterson could use some spiritual healing. Just think, he is going to have to live with those murders on his conscience for the rest of his life!
When are you going to answer THIS question churchmouse?

reply from: sander

I know that and acknowledged it, but this is what you said to me in your last post:'
You'll have to excuse me, but I don't see anything in the above that points to the Bible that you're now saying, "I don't get".
I'll reserve responding to this for the time being.
You've been here a short time and are taking liberties that you probably shouldn't. I'm not going to re-llist the list. Do a search and find it for yourself. I've all ready explained why it pained me to do it in the first time.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion and I'll just leave it at that.
So, to remind them of the day they murdered their baby is good, wouldn't that be like "pointing a finger of judgement" in their faces?
I look at it as giving a mixed message, I have to say that is the lesser of the two wrongs, if either are wrong.
I hope she reaches every man, woman and child she ever comes into contact with.
And yes, God does have a purpose for us all. One plants, one waters, but it's God that gives the increase.
Do you have a persecution complex? I ask, because I have in no way said, or insinuated you do not care for the womb child. You will have to show me the post with the words stating as such. After you do, I will apologize and if you can't then you might consider doing the same.
Good, prayer changes things, people and circumstances.
I never once said you forgot the womb child. Not once. You really need to stop putting words in people's mouths. It's close to bareing false witness, imo.
This is getting ridiculous, what is your problem? Am I off base wondering if you have a perseuction complex, I don't think so.
Because I hold an opinion, an opinion that giving creature comforts is a mixed message you have deduced hatred, my not reconizing I'm a sinner and have the audacity to ask if I'm loved.
You do have some problems, none of which I would have ever guessed until these last few posts.
If you can't be civil or mature enough to express yourself without reducing to these kind of tactics then perhaps you need to just skip past my posts.
This is terrible what you're attributing to me. This is not Christ like, you must know that.
I can hold an opinion of mixed messages and you've jumped to these kind of conclusions, there's something seriously wrong here.
Double standards? I see, it's okay if you pick and choose sides, friends, etc.., but I'm not permitted.
Right, I'll be sure and make a note of that.
I don't even know what you're talking about here. It doesn't make sense in regard to what you're responding to.
I don't know that anyone is here to belong to a group or play childish games. But, you certainly seem to have done both. You've chosen sides, fine, you're entitled, nobody is stopping you. But, allow us the same courtesy in choosing sides of any debate that may be going on, it's only natural to do so in the first place.
And I do the same. Is that okay with you? Do I need your permission not to be lukewarm, do you need mine?
Ask others how I feel about being lukewarm, I despise the very idea as God Himself will spew the lukewarm out of his Mouth.

reply from: nancyu

DO NOT give post abortive women chocolate and tea goody bags immediately upon exiting an abortion clinic, OR ANYTHING WHICH COULD BE CONSTRUED TO BE A REWARD. (Handing out Scripture and informational literature is fine.)
WAIT A MINIMUM of 24 hours before offering any expression of comfort or sympathy. (Even if she is in tears; she should be ignored completely.) Pray for her if you wish.
ENSURE that she is in need of comfort and sympathy BEFORE offering it.
Absolutely NO chocolate and tea bags WHATSOEVER!! Until aftera woman has given birth to a (hopefully) healthy, and (definitely)LIVING baby.
Exactly how did you come up with this set of rules? On what experience are you basing them?
I made them up.

reply from: galen

Let's see the statistics then. What are your sources?
--------------------------
the women i was really gentle and sweet with in the first 2 years i was counseling...90% of them came back w/ in 4 years with a 2nd third and even fourth AB.
also try these links... http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1861564554.html....

http://www.military-sf.com/Killing.htm
http://www.holocaust-history.org/lifton/Liftonindex.shtml
http://psych.mcmaster.ca/dalywilson/FamilicideSpouseChildren.pdf
http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/33/2/282
http://libdoc.who.int/bulletin/2001/issue5/79(5)382-387.pdf
http://remember.org/witness/wit.vic.med.html
http://abortionhurts.blogspot.com/2005/11/killing-101-part-two-atrocity.html
http://blog.itsallaboutabandonment.com/
http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/C8525.aspx
http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521821282
http://host.uniroma3.it/progetti/kant/field/epbiblio.htm
and go out and do your own research sense i know you won't actually read any of this......

reply from: nancyu

That's not true and a downright mean thing to say.

reply from: nancyu

Let's see the statistics then. What are your sources?
--------------------------
the women i was really gentle and sweet with in the first 2 years i was counseling...90% of them came back w/ in 4 years with a 2nd third and even fourth AB.
also try these links... http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1861564554.html....
">http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/...564554.html....
http://www.military-sf.com/Killing.htm
">http://www.military-sf.com/Killing.htm
http://www.holocaust-history.org/lifton/Liftonindex.shtml
">http://www.holocaust-history.o...ftonindex.shtml
http://psych.mcmaster.ca/dalywilson/FamilicideSpouseChildren.pdf
">http://psych.mcmaster.ca/dalyw...useChildren.pdf
http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/33/2/282
">http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/33/2/282
http://libdoc.who.int/bulletin/2001/issue5/79(5)382-387.pdf
">http://libdoc.who.int/bulletin...9(5)382-387.pdf
http://remember.org/witness/wit.vic.med.html
">http://remember.org/witness/wit.vic.med.html
http://abortionhurts.blogspot.com/2005/11/killing-101-part-two-atrocity.html
">http://abortionhurts.blogspot....o-atrocity.html
http://blog.itsallaboutabandonment.com/
">http://blog.itsallaboutabandonment.com/
http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/C8525.aspx
">http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/C8525.aspx
http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521821282
">http://www.cambridge.org/uk/ca...isbn=0521821282
http://host.uniroma3.it/progetti/kant/field/epbiblio.htm
">http://host.uniroma3.it/proget...ld/epbiblio.htm
and go out and do your own research sense i know you won't actually read any of this......

reply from: Faramir

If you're going to make a claim, you ought to back it up with an explaination and proof, and not just links.
Post the appropriate information that confirms that by giving bibles, tracts, a mug, and candy to a postabortive woman, it makes her more likely to abort in the future.

reply from: nancyu

It is common sense!!!
Do you give your puppy a treat when he pees on the carpet, or do you scold him? Maybe you give him a treat, and I'm sure this made him stop, right? I know human's are not puppies, but the principle is the same. People react to positive and negative reinforcement, too.

reply from: Faramir

It is common sense!!!
Do you give your puppy a treat when he pees on the carpet, or do you scold him? Maybe you give him a treat, and I'm sure this made him stop, right? I know human's are not puppies, but the principle is the same. People react to positive and negative reinforcement, too.
What they are doing has been misunderstood and mischaracterized.
They are not rewarding the women for aborting.
They are simply showing concern for them.

reply from: carolemarie

As far as I know, this is a relatively new approach at the abortion clinic. But if you have seen studies that say it isn't and it doesn't work, then I would like to read them. Would you send me the link please?

reply from: 4given

LINKS FOR CM- Carole whatever you do, at the clinics or the clubs- Do for God's glory.. I can't help but to feel compassion towards you- for being the victimized, reckless sexualized girl that needed a CM to welcome and comfort them! The gift bags don't sit well, as expressed early on. Do as you are led. And to the women that do not abort- what is in their bag?

reply from: Faramir

What are you implying by this question? That saving the baby isn't enough? That they are overlooking them somehow?
And what the post abortive woman is getting is an opportunity for healing--not a goodie bag.

reply from: carolemarie

We give them these giant gift bags packed with baby clothes and blanket and diapers,bottles and toys and all kinds of baby stuff, a gift card to Walmart and of course, our phone numbers and help if they need it. We also have lotion and nail polish and things for them in the giant bag, a bible, tracts on abstinence etd...

reply from: 4given

I understand and appreciate that! I know you stated that you have not been at the abortuaries lately, as you are working with women in the industry. Do you use the same approach when working/dealing with them?

reply from: 4given

What are you implying by this question? That saving the baby isn't enough? That they are overlooking them somehow? And what the post abortive woman is getting is an opportunity for healing--not a goodie bag.
Foolish one. I was asking a question- not implying anything. This is a conversation between another poster and myself. I suggest you back away, as I am quite sure neither of us is in need of any support. An honest question- and a discussion prior to your nonsense here. Again- back away. Stop meddling. You are a screw off and it is offensive. You are wasting my time. I have no problem stating what I mean by anything. I don't play games- nor do I desire to.

reply from: churchmouse

You in no way shape or form said it in a nice way. You do it on purpose. You questioned her motives.
So you aren't a Christian.
Let me explain. God sent Jesus to die for our sins so that we could have eternal life. He is the only way to the Father. He is the only one that can save someones soul.
The Great Commission is Gods commandment for all Christians to spread the gospel to the lost. There are women there that do not know Christ, so that is the first reason why I am there.
nancy you are wrong, there is no other way to say it, you are WRONG ABOUT THIS. The unborn are person but our government does not recognize this. Roe was the decision handed down by the Supreme Court that gives women the right to kill. What dont you see here?
I'm curious, sander and Joe, do you also think that nancy is right, that abortion is illegal?
Is nancy right or wrong on this? Or cant you make comment because she is your friend and you dont want to cross her?
What a thing for a Christian to say. But then you never would acknowledge Christ when I asked you whether you were a Christian, who knows what you are. Obviously you are ashamed.
Never a kindness Concerned, never a kindness. These guys are perffffffect they never sin, isn't that incredible?
So put your money where you mouth is.......give me a few examples.
nancy you are such a hypocrite. You have no clue. Either its cocktail hour at your house 24-7 or you didnt finish junior high.
Yes nancy show Christian love. Lets kick people to the curb, lets bash their heads in........until YOU THINK THEY HAVE SUFFERED ENOUGH. You are pathetic, simply pathetic. Sander and joe arent even close to the coldness you show. NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE.
You think its ok to wait to hand anyone a bible.........because you think they should suffer first? LOL. You have got to be kidding. How the heck is carol supposed to wait.......ask PP for a list of names and address and then take the bibles to their homes?
You are one of the most pathetic examples of someone that claims to be pro-life I have ever encountered. You are cold and have a hardened heart that is for sure.
You take the cake.
No one could be this cold, no one........
What? What do you mean all are not called? I dont understand what you think I mean. Explain further please.
Of course I would intervene. Defending a five year old is legal. Defending an unborn is NOT LEGAL IF YOU TAKE PHYSICAL ACTION BECAUSE ABORTION IS LEGAL. So if I walked into an abortion clinic and forced myself into a room, shot the doctor, I would be doing something agaisnt the law.
I would think that anyone that did not help a child was horrible. I guess I dont get what your coming at me with.
"She may"? Hey carol did you hear that. You may. LOL
Now why sander would she want to wrap something up nice? You mean wrap something up for a murderer. nancy will get you for that one. LOL
It just doesnt make sense does it? You make good points. Why not let her suffer more......and wait 48 hours. Or make her wait until she starts vomiting.
Yea wonder what the rules are for rapists and pediphiles. How about homosexuals and robbers. Same rules, different rules? I am afraid to ask.
Why nancy didnt you know that any good mother that nurses her child does not eat chocolate.
You take the prize concernedparent when you said this. You sure you are not a Christian?

I dont know what to say.......it was perfect comeback.
carolmarie you keep doing what your doing. God will reward you and hopefully your gift of love and support will help to lead someone to Christ.
Poor vexing, ya never will get it will ya. Always the martyr, the sacrifical lamb the victim. LOL
Yes and Concernedparent shows more love then nancy could ever hope to show. And he isnt a Christian.
HILARIOUS.

I agree that it is a travesty of justice. It is horrible. But the abortionists are doing something legal, they do not need to hide. We need to overturn Roe. We need to storm the Capital, picket.......we need to get in every politician in our countrys face. Everyone knows its legal, well all except nancy. she still thinks its illegal.
You know joe......you as we can all see idolize Hill. If you idolize him, why not be him? You chicken, or dont you care enough for the unborn. Well what is it?
Joe the finger pointer, the tongue wagger..........WHAT HAVE YOU EVER DONE? Fake Christianity you say? Why Joe your the one that thinks what Hill did was ok. You wish, you pray for people to die. You are the devil in sheeps clothing.
What do you do to help this cause? WHAT DO YOU DO JOE? WHAT? DO YOU DO ANYTHING BUT COMPLAIN AND HATE? WHAT DO YOU DO?

reply from: Faramir

What are you implying by this question? That saving the baby isn't enough? That they are overlooking them somehow? And what the post abortive woman is getting is an opportunity for healing--not a goodie bag.
Foolish one. I was asking a question- not implying anything. This is a conversation between another poster and myself. I suggest you back away, as I am quite sure neither of us is in need of any support. An honest question- and a discussion prior to your nonsense here. Again- back away. Stop meddling. You are a screw off and it is offensive. You are wasting my time. I have no problem stating what I mean by anything. I don't play games- nor do I desire to.
If you are worried about time wasting, then no reply was necessary, and certainly name-calling was out of line, and a further waste of time, but it did give you another opportunity to lash out at someone.

reply from: 4given

I don't seek or need an "opportunity to lash out at someone". Clearly you do not understand boundaries and have once again invited yourself, inappropriately to another's conversation. I have no problem with CM- or communicating with her. I was trying to help others with the flip side.. But you are merely here to satisfy an ego, so too oblivious and selfish to recognize it.. Shame.

reply from: Faramir

I don't seek or need an "opportunity to lash out at someone". Clearly you do not understand boundaries and have once again invited yourself, inappropriately to another's conversation. I have no problem with CM- or communicating with her. I was trying to help others with the flip side.. But you are merely here to satisfy an ego, so too oblivious and selfish to recognize it.. Shame.
It's a public board. There are no "boundaries." If there were, you would not be so rude. If you want a private conversation, use the PM feature. I have every right to comment about any post, as others do about my posts, regardless of to whom they might be directed.

reply from: 4given

What, exactly, does it mean to be "sexualized?" (to you, I mean...)
Are you seriously asking or trying to entertain yourself? Either way sov gott..

reply from: 4given

I didn't realize I was being "rude". Sure.. every right. I am simply addressing my issue with you and your attempt to step into a conversation unnecessarily.. Yet the sad thing is, when you have an issue with another person, such as myself, you take it up w/ others... Carole is strong. She will woman up if need be. Stop being such a wuss.. Please.

reply from: Faramir

As far as I know, this is a relatively new approach at the abortion clinic. But if you have seen studies that say it isn't and it doesn't work, then I would like to read them. Would you send me the link please?
Do you give these packages to everyone?
Do some refuse?
What is the usual reaction?

reply from: galen

-----------------------------------
yeah i knew you wouldn't bother to read it....
its not what its when... you are some sort of dolt aren't you.....

reply from: joe

Now this is the passion I like to see! But you are judging the wrong person, you accuse me of being a devil? I killed no one and advocate the defense of the innocent, you on the other hand show compassion to the killers. Who do you think is the devil to the unborn...let them judge you.

reply from: joe

She is absolutely right, abortion is illegal according to the Laws of God and the inherent right to life. I am bound to the Laws of God, not to man.
The "law" that allows the killing of innocent human life is illegitimate.

reply from: galen

As far as I know, this is a relatively new approach at the abortion clinic. But if you have seen studies that say it isn't and it doesn't work, then I would like to read them. Would you send me the link please?
-------------------------------
carole... your gift bags may be new to you but others have tried similar approaches...
what i am trying to get accross... however badly, is that the WAY you approach someone is not in a mean way. I don't think that...
however its the WHEN you approach them that has the problem. When you give someone a gift after a terrible act has been committed, your gift is seen in a diffrent manner than if you simply gave them your card and asked them to check in with you later, and THEN gave them some sort of support. Directly afterward it will be percieved as an approval gesture... weather you mean it that way or not. It makes it easier on thyier psyche and the brain will do all sorts of things with that. it actually aids them in thier denial process... which is how we humans deal with something we KNOW is wrong, rather then allowing them to process on thier own what they have just done. We humans have a real way about us when we can process and we often berate ourselves better than others can... its a process that allows us to own a wrong and make up our minds about it. At that point we have to decide weather we 'got away' with a bad thing or wether we have guilt over it. 99% of women feel some guilt over an abortion wether they say so out in public or not... its the unease that can make or break a healing process in this type of case... and something that can be worked with so that a woman can come to her senses and heal from the experience. This is not rape or prostitution... this woman has killed her child for what ever reason,( on purpose) and in order to learn from her experience and not repeat it she MUST own up to what she has done. Any thing that explains it away in her head deterrs this process and can aid in her denial.
I hope that was more clear... i have a bit of aphasia today...forgive my tumour.

reply from: carolemarie

I use a similar approach, but tailored to the sex industry workers we want to help.
I pray for them constantly, it is a dangerous life.

reply from: joe

So put your money where you mouth is.......give me a few examples.
Why did you ignore my question? "Are you saying that being a Christian, I must let someone kill my child, turn around and serve him tea while my child's flesh is still warm?"
Would you give your "gift bag" to Paul Hill while the "Doctors" flesh was still warm? Or do you only care about the women that murder?

reply from: galen

You know Paul Hill was applauded by many people in the pro life areana and he never got that what he did was just as wrong as what the doctor did. Murder is murder... its never right to kill.

reply from: carolemarie

Not everyone will take one. Sometimes the friend comes and gets one "for later".
I am not sure what the ratio is of takers verse none takers. Alittle under half take the bags.

reply from: joe

The error that Paul Hill committed was his belief that the pro-life movement actually cares about the unborn and that a small majority would follow him and end this Holocaust. The pro-choice movement played it smart, labeling defenders of the innocent as "terrorist" while they kill 4000 per day. The pro-life movement bought this lie and condemned a hero.

reply from: galen

CM-
I forgot to add that all the links previously posted can start your research as to what happens to someone when they kill another person... especially a child... there is a whole area of study on this subject and thousands of links...
just google the subject and start reading...

reply from: Faramir

-----------------------------------
yeah i knew you wouldn't bother to read it....
its not what its when... you are some sort of dolt aren't you.....
You ought to post the relevant information and not expect others to do your homework.
The links should serve as a source.

reply from: joe

The answer to all three is NO. This is why I do not advocate abortion violence but will not condemn it on moral grounds.
You cannot defend these questions as truth in regards to abortion.

reply from: galen

-----------------------------------
yeah i knew you wouldn't bother to read it....
its not what its when... you are some sort of dolt aren't you.....
You ought to post the relevant information and not expect others to do your homework.
The links should serve as a source.
-----------------------------------------------------
they are a scource if you bother to read them...
i think i explained myself to carole rather than taking up forum space that can be used in other ways....homeowrk huh? i'm tired of laying it all out for you when you do not bother to fully read it anyway. why bother?
at least when i post a link if a person is TRUELY interested and not just here to argue ... they will read it and form thier own opinions... its called learning.
BTW.

reply from: carolemarie

I will google the topic over the weekend.
But, gotta tell you, women who have had abortions think it is a great idea....
They wish that someone had done that for them....
We only have the one chance at the clinic to reach them, because we will not see them again. I can't stand to let them go without trying to reach them for the Lord one more time... I don't want them to believe that they have gone to far to come back to God. And I certainly don't want them to wind up back again and again...
so this one chance is all we have to plant a seed with a small act of kindness...

reply from: galen

I understand why you do it carole... truely after pondering it i do see why you do this. i just know from experience that WHen you do a thing and HOW you do a thing can have a major impact about how well it will work. Why not try to let them come to you afterwards without what could be percieved as a reward... isn't there another way yu could get the Word of God to then after without seeming to condone what they have done?
How about no 'presents' just a bag with the tracts/ meditations/ etc and a phone number they can call to let you know how they are doing... then you can fall into a counseling role....pass on info whatever..?

reply from: joe

*CP shakes head slowly in disbelief*
Are you part of the "pro-life movement," Joe? Did you "follow him?" Does this mean anyone who doesn't follow Hill's example doesn't care about the unborn?
You keep missing the point. This is a war of words and truth.
Btw, you ignored my response to the outcome that Paul Hill was looking for. Is the truth that hard to hear?

reply from: galen

In all honesty, is it reasonable to believe any woman would think a pro-lifer was rewarding them for aborting?
---------------------------------------------
yep... our brains do weird things when we try to process why we do something wrong.
the diffrence between us and sander's puppy is we try to rationalise it... that is where we go into denial etc. a puppy would just associate a treat with good behaviour and continue the behaviour.

reply from: galen

In all honesty, is it reasonable to believe any woman would think a pro-lifer was rewarding them for aborting?
---------------------------------------------
yep... our brains do weird things when we try to process why we do something wrong.
the diffrence between us and sander's puppy is we try to rationalise it... that is where we go into denial etc. a puppy would just associate a treat with good behaviour and continue the behaviour.
I don't think you honestly believe some woman will open her bag and think, "gee, I thought that lady was against abortion, but she actually paid me in chocolate for getting one!"
Sorry. I don't think you really believe that....
----------------------------------------------------
yes i know it seems strange.. but that's psychology... she is not having this conversation in her mind the way you describe it... but her subconcious rationalises things this way.. remember you are talking to someone who is taumatised on some level....

reply from: galen

sorry guys... storms are picking up gotta go for now.

reply from: carolemarie

We could do that I suppose...
it is just that I have this scripture in my head that says "a mans gift makes a way for him". And I was thinking that the simple gesture of kindness made a way for us.
You give gifts to people you care about, not people you hate or are mad at....I want them feel cared for, so they will feel safe in coming to us.
I want to be kind, because God is kind and that kindness is impossible to fight against.

reply from: churchmouse

You lie. I want protect for them as well. I just believe that we should do it within the laws of our country.
You do too.....or you would be in jail right now. What have you ever done to stop and abortion joe? Or arent you that passionate?
You are a big talker.....talk talk talk, no actions.
Why Joe, why no action?

Do you know for a fact that the women you think were stopped from aborting that day did not reschedule somewhere else?
You have no clue how many if any were saved. Was it ok that he shoot his wife too? Was that frosting on the cake for ya joe?
If what he did is morally justified, then anyone with a passion agaisnt something should take matters into their own hands. In other words we should ignore the laws in this country. If someone ticks you off, you take care of it. If what Hill did was morally right, then why dont you do it?
Oh I know you wont answer that one. LOL
No, I think it's murder as well. You said abortion was illegal. It is not, it is legal. So if its illegal like you say, and the law backs your view up.......then test it out with some Hill violence and see how far you get.
If you can defend an innocent life, like that of a 5 year old, then any violence you would do would be justified and within legal boundaries.
You know nancy when will you step up to the plate and answer mine. You seem to avoid them.
You asked me these.......
"So why do you advocate handing them tea and chocolate? Why not go give some to someone who murders a born child? Have you visited any of them in prison?"
Well nancy I cant do every ministry can I? I could also fly to Africa and hand out information to women there too.
I work for Right to Live, Silent No More.......I am involved. Right now we are putting goodie bags together for pastors of churches in Phoenix. We are giving them pro-life information. We are trying to get into the churches to talk to groups and get people signed up to help, to picket etc.....I cant be everywhere and do everything. I probably work 20-30 hours a week between these two organizations. I beleive in what carol is doing period. You make a big deal over her choice of food, but I think its more. Your out for blood. You dont try to find common ground, you want to focus always on the negative, especially if someone stands up agaisnt you.
Now I'll ask you what you do for this cause. What do you do?
"I'll bet Scott Peterson could use some spiritual healing. Just think, he is going to have to live with those murders on his conscience for the rest of his life!"
So god cant save Scott? Wow. You are somthing else. So its to late for Scott, he should be shown no love?
You are so far from being a Christian ,,,,,,,,,
the yes.........was for the bibles.

Oh pleaze spare me Joe. You could very easily repost the list. I have no clue where you even posted it in. You dont want to answer. I am not taking any liberties......this is a public forum and I am abiding by the rules. What am I doing that I am not supposed to do Joe?
It pains you to list what you do for this cause? And you make fun of other people and question their motives. yea right.
Yes, if they are unsaved. They need to know that God loves them but they need to come to Him and repent. It is not bad if I pray someone hits rock bottom, so that they call out to God.
So you think I misrepresent what you said, and you can say anything about me and it's ok? and what about this you said about me?......."I wish protection for all innocent human life unlike yourself. "
I have been here less than one week and I take sides? Whose side am I on? I defended carol......I state what I beleive no matter who it is. My point was that no one seems to question nancy for her views.
You avoid again another question Joe.
Yes I do show compassion. Jesus showed compassion and saved me Joe. He saved me after I killed my child. If he can forgive me for this......how can I not forgive another human being for a wrong?
According to God abortion is murder, immoral, wrong. So if you are that passionate about it, and want to follow Gods law to the letter, then why not take justice into your own hands?
Why have none of you killed anyone?
galen, no woman would ever think that after her abortion if she was given a bible......that it was affirming what she was doing....pleazzzze. People know if they see people standing outside a clinic what they are standing there for. And its not abortion supporters that picket.

Carol again, do not listen to the mockers here. Keep doing what you feel is right.
I'll pray for your ministry.

reply from: churchmouse

I am glad someone sees the good in her ministry.
But galen have you ever had an abortion?
Do you think any woman after an abortion would want to talk to a group of protesters outside? You dont feel to good. You are bleeding and you dont feel like standing up let alone, chat for a while with people who think you killed your unborn.
And concernedparent is so right when he says that no woman that got a bag full of stuff......one that included post abortion information and a bible.....would think it was a reward. if anything they would cry over the love that was shown to them. The bag is a judgement in a way.......its says you need forgiveness and Christ can save. It says you killed a living human being.
Believes me when i say, you dont want to be reminded of this.
I agree, it is sad that all his pro-life work ended the way it did. If memory serves me right.....didnt he injure an innocent woman? Is that justified?
I just cant believe so many are hung up on chocolate and cant see that the good out weighs the bad.
God knows however and that is all that matters.

reply from: Faramir

I think this is a wonderful idea and a great outreach.
The only "mixed message" that I can see is that it is one which acknowledges that something was wrong, but that love, forgiveness, friendship, and healing await those who seek it and desire it.
You are both doing good work to stop abortion and save babies, and to help those living victims of abortion, too.
What some here don't seem to unserstand is that you can be kind and loving to the post abortive woman without diminishing the importance of the babies, and without it coming at the expense of the babies.
And then again, sad to say, there are some meanspirited people who want to see the women pay.

reply from: cracrat

Thanks. One for you too,
Agreed. Or not. But that is and I agree that we shouldn't. And there I go again. Oh crap this is confusing.

reply from: cracrat

I'm not buying it, Mary. Are you implying that she will subconsciously become predisposed to abort again so she can get some free chocolate? Or that giving her chocolate will subconsciously reinforce her belief that she has done nothing wrong, but a free Bible could not possibly have this strange psychological effect, despite her alleged irrational trauma induced thinking?
An abortion costs about $400 right? How many chocolate bars does one get for that? Surely if it were the sweets they were interested in, they'd just go and buy their own.

reply from: nancyu

In all honesty, is it reasonable to believe any woman would think a pro-lifer was rewarding them for aborting?
It depends on your definition of "pro life"

reply from: nancyu

I am glad someone sees the good in her ministry.
But galen have you ever had an abortion? If you do, make sure it is on CMs watch, you get tea bags and chocolate and this really cool mug.
Do you think any woman after an abortion would want to talk to a group of protesters outside? You dont feel to good. You are bleeding and you dont feel like standing up let alone, chat for a while with people who think you killed your unborn. That's why its the best to go in on CM night.
And concernedparent is so right when he says that no woman that got a bag full of stuff......one that included post abortion information and a bible.....and chocolate, and tea and this really cool mug would think it was a reward. if anything they would cry over the love that was shown to them. The bag is a judgement in a way.......its says you need forgiveness and Christ can save. It says you killed a living human being. You poor dear, have some chocolate, it will cheer you up and make you feel all better about it.
Believes me when i say, you dont want to be reminded of this. Just eat the chocolate and forget it all.

reply from: sander

Um, having a bad day?
You are one sour, bitter human being.
I'm not doing you any favors and posting any lists, you're nasty and can't even keep track of who you're talking to.
Buzz off and the next time you tell someone how righteous you are because of your walk with God the above will be proof enough you're full of it.

reply from: carolemarie

Um, having a bad day?
You are one sour, bitter human being.
I'm not doing you any favors and posting any lists, you're nasty and can't even keep track of who you're talking to.
Buzz off and the next time you tell someone how righteous you are because of your walk with God the above will be proof enough you're full of it.
You have all attacked her for no real reason, except that she thought gift bags was a good idea. She is new here and didn't know that if anyone agrees with anything I post they are the enemy.
And your list is in the private forum and she can't see it.
She does go to the abortion clinic and tries to reach women. Same thing Yoda does, you should at least respect her for that. She doesn't give out gift bags.

reply from: Faramir

Um, having a bad day?
You are one sour, bitter human being.
I'm not doing you any favors and posting any lists, you're nasty and can't even keep track of who you're talking to.
Buzz off and the next time you tell someone how righteous you are because of your walk with God the above will be proof enough you're full of it.
It's good she shows her true colors from time to time.

reply from: Faramir

I can't believe there was a fight over reaching out to post abortive women. And all the naysayers wanted to see was the candy--they looked past everything else.
And not a peep about a poster here who provides a lovely portrait of postabortive women, and who is kind enough to post it on the internet. Why aren't we criticizing his free photography services?

reply from: joe

If what he did is morally justified, then anyone with a passion agaisnt something should take matters into their own hands. In other words we should ignore the laws in this country. If someone ticks you off, you take care of it. If what Hill did was morally right, then why dont you do it?
Oh I know you wont answer that one. LOL
I do not ignore legitimate questions unlike yourself. Your silence regarding my questions testifies to you being wrong and afraid to face the truth.
You claim to be a Christian yet you fear men, not God. The inherent right to life is God given, to defend it is morally justified even if there is a illegitimate law protecting the killer.
I cannot do what Paul Hill did, neither can I be a infantry soldier in the U.S. Army. Nobody is saying we must do what Paul Hill did, nobody is advocating violence. You seem to not understand it is truth I seek, if we believe it is human life equivalent to born life, we need to stop lying to the world and ourselves.
For anyone to deny that Paul Hill was morally justified would mean:
1. They serve the Laws of man not God.
2. They do not believe unborn life is equal to born life.
The claim that is caused a negative impact is unproven therefore ignored, it can be argued it had a positive impact but just a claim, again ignored. It is my belief that when the pro-life movement sends a unclear message about the value of the unborn we do more damage than the pro-aborts do.

reply from: joe

Yes I do show compassion. Jesus showed compassion and saved me Joe. He saved me after I killed my child. If he can forgive me for this......how can I not forgive another human being for a wrong?
What are you forgiving the women who kill their children for? It is easy for you to forgive when you are not the one being ripped apart, you are not the one being trespassed against. Also you have no authority to forgive sins, that is reserved for our Lord and Savior.
Why do you always ignore the child? Why do you always ignore the one true victim of abortion?
I do not give a damn about the feelings of the unrepentant women and the assassins they hire. They had the choice to kill...the child did not choose to die.

reply from: galen

I'm not buying it, Mary. Are you implying that she will subconsciously become predisposed to abort again so she can get some free chocolate? Or that giving her chocolate will subconsciously reinforce her belief that she has done nothing wrong, but a free Bible could not possibly have this strange psychological effect, despite her alleged irrational trauma induced thinking?
------------------------------------------------------
nope i am saying her subconcious is looking for ANY way to deny what she has done... giving goodie bags will give it that excuse...
also Bible Koran etc... are generally percieved as moral lesson books and not as gifts. they are more likely to invoke a response condusive to 'owning up' than a chocolate bar or teddy bear etc... that 'owning up' process must happen before someone can heal.

reply from: churchmouse

You are right. there are meanspirited people that want to divide people.
And in your case you seem to be pro-life ONLY FOR THE UNBORN. You certainly do not stand on the term in any other sense of it. You condone what Hill did. You think woman that have had abortions should be dead. If thats pro-life, I am not pro-life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro%2DLife

Yes Galen, you will not get anything but Christian love from me. I will sit down and tell you how wrong you were to have had an abortion. I will show you that what you did was kill a child. But the GOOD NEWS is that if you repent and truly ask God for forgiveness,,,,and you try to live like Christ, He will save you. Unless you do this, you will not have eternity with God.
Nancy wants to kick post abortive women to the curb. She has a time frame of how long she should sit and suffer. Right nance?
Christ does not want anyone to suffer......He wants our love and He will pour out His blessing on anyone if they accept Him. There is no need to wait with Christ. THE TIME IS NOW.
You are so defesive nancy, what gives? I dont think we have the whole story about you here. Hmmmm.
You are defensive for a reason alright and I have an idea what it is.
nancy you arent passioante about the unborn......or you would do something about it, work of some kind. Your total focus is the woman, the murderer and condeming her.
You surprise me sander. I am new and I have no history of what people have done with pro-life work here. I asked several people what they do for the cause..........AND NOT ONE PERSON HAS EVEN MENTIONED ONE ACTIVITY THEY ARE INVOLVED WITH. I simply asked and not in a mean way.
I think if the passion here from some of you were that great, you would be doing or working in some capacity to change things. I asked what people did.
You obviously all know each other. Why is it such a secret? it was that hard for the list to be reposted here. Can I go see the list......?
You guys attack. You dont care. You dont want to debate and discuss issues. You want to attack, especially nancy. She definately has issues.
You think I act righteous. What... are you out of your mind? I walked into a den of wolves here when I came and admitted that I had an abortion. I was warned by several people....... that your group were tough that I would get hammered on a daily basis. They were right. I can take it....so bring it on.
I am a Christian, a sinner, I have been saved Only BY THE GRACE OF GOD. I was a murderer, I lived the living human child inside me. I do not deserve to be saved, but He saved me and I was washed clean when I accepted Him. Christ commanded us to love, especially our enemies and those that mock us.
You can call me names, you can say anything you want, it wont change that fact that underneath I love you all. I am disguested however with the tone against carol. SHE DID NOT DESERVE THE ABUSE, THE QUESTIONING FROM ANY OF YOU, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN. And when I went to bat for her, you did the same thing to me. Her motives were torn apart......and ole nancy, just skates by unchallenged. And if someone challenges her.......boy watch out.
Who here has exposed their sinful life other than carol and myself. And you have the gall to say we try to be so self-righteous. I dont know everything but I do know this.....the humanists on this board are kinder than those that bashed carol and claim to be Christian. They see her heart is in the right place.
Its to darn bad you dont.
Carol, thank you for the work you are doing. Your heart is in the right place. We know how those woman feel when they leave. Your kindness glorifies God and hopefully will bring those women to Him. We cant save but we can plant seeds. and you are a seed planter. And we can give unconditional love like He gave to us.

reply from: galen

churchmouse...
Yes Galen, you will not get anything but Christian love from me. I will sit down and tell you how wrong you were to have had an abortion. I will show you that what you did was kill a child. But the GOOD NEWS is that if you repent and truly ask God for forgiveness,,,,and you try to live like Christ, He will save you. Unless you do this, you will not have eternity with God.
-----------------------------------------------------------
you do not know who i am obviously...
i help run a crisis pregnancy and abused women's centre..i am a nurse and have a phd and teach at a university near my home. i also help run a women's health centre for uninsured women and a rape crisis centre for women. we also do counseling for post abortive women. some or all of this is done thru the Catholic Charities programme in our area.
i will tell you i have a child by rape ... he is 17 and another child who was a preemie.... i was advised to abort both and did not.
If i seem unclear about something please let me know. i had an operation for a brain tumour in february and some times i am less clear than i would like to be.
i do not know how you came to think i had an abortion but there it is.

reply from: nancyu

You are right. there are meanspirited people that want to divide people.
And in your case you seem to be pro-life ONLY FOR THE UNBORN. You certainly do not stand on the term in any other sense of it. You condone what Hill did. You think woman that have had abortions should be dead. If thats pro-life, I am not pro-life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro%2DLife
">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro%2DLife
Yes Galen, you will not get anything but Christian love from me. I will sit down and tell you how wrong you were to have had an abortion. I will show you that what you did was kill a child. But the GOOD NEWS is that if you repent and truly ask God for forgiveness,,,,and you try to live like Christ, He will save you. Unless you do this, you will not have eternity with God.
Nancy wants to kick post abortive women to the curb. She has a time frame of how long she should sit and suffer. Right nance?
Christ does not want anyone to suffer......He wants our love and He will pour out His blessing on anyone if they accept Him. There is no need to wait with Christ. THE TIME IS NOW.
You are so defesive nancy, what gives? I dont think we have the whole story about you here. Hmmmm.
You are defensive for a reason alright and I have an idea what it is.
nancy you arent passioante about the unborn......or you would do something about it, work of some kind. Your total focus is the woman, the murderer and condeming her.
You surprise me sander. I am new and I have no history of what people have done with pro-life work here. I asked several people what they do for the cause..........AND NOT ONE PERSON HAS EVEN MENTIONED ONE ACTIVITY THEY ARE INVOLVED WITH. I simply asked and not in a mean way.
I think if the passion here from some of you were that great, you would be doing or working in some capacity to change things. I asked what people did.
You obviously all know each other. Why is it such a secret? it was that hard for the list to be reposted here. Can I go see the list......?
You guys attack. You dont care. You dont want to debate and discuss issues. You want to attack, especially nancy. She definately has issues.
You think I act righteous. What... are you out of your mind? I walked into a den of wolves here when I came and admitted that I had an abortion. I was warned by several people....... that your group were tough that I would get hammered on a daily basis. They were right. I can take it....so bring it on.
I am a Christian, a sinner, I have been saved Only BY THE GRACE OF GOD. I was a murderer, I lived the living human child inside me. I do not deserve to be saved, but He saved me and I was washed clean when I accepted Him. Christ commanded us to love, especially our enemies and those that mock us.
You can call me names, you can say anything you want, it wont change that fact that underneath I love you all. I am disguested however with the tone against carol. SHE DID NOT DESERVE THE ABUSE, THE QUESTIONING FROM ANY OF YOU, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN. And when I went to bat for her, you did the same thing to me. Her motives were torn apart......and ole nancy, just skates by unchallenged. And if someone challenges her.......boy watch out.
Who here has exposed their sinful life other than carol and myself. And you have the gall to say we try to be so self-righteous. I dont know everything but I do know this.....the humanists on this board are kinder than those that bashed carol and claim to be Christian. They see her heart is in the right place.
Its to darn bad you dont.
Carol, thank you for the work you are doing. Your heart is in the right place. We know how those woman feel when they leave. Your kindness glorifies God and hopefully will bring those women to Him. We cant save but we can plant seeds. and you are a seed planter. And we can give unconditional love like He gave to us.
churchmouse, there is something going on with you for which I think you should get professional help. Either you are being paid by planned parenthood to try and destroy the truth about abortion or there is something very seriously wrong with you. Are you drinking? or on drugs? Something about you is not right, and you are trying to project this on to me.
The only issues I have is that the unborn are being slaughtered and I want it to stop. What are yours?

reply from: Faramir

I'm embarrassed for you that your daughter is on this board and has to witness this. Your posts are becoming increasingly nuttier.

reply from: nancyu

I'm embarrassed for you that your daughter is on this board and has to witness this. Your posts are becoming increasingly nuttier.
Don't worry about my daughter. She is capable of making her own judgments. If she thinks I am nutty, I'm sure she will tell me so. As for your opinion of me, I really really really
don't care.

reply from: churchmouse

Thanks galen for sharing that information. I don't know what many people do here concerning pro-life causes, it helps to know. Your the first that has shared that info with me.
Wow. You have been through a lot. My sister has a preemie at around 22 1/2 weeks. It was a miracle that is for sure.
I am really confused as to how people box peoples comments on here.
nancy you do not fool me. Something isnt right with you.
WE all know the truth here, well except you when you say abortion in America is illegal. We in the pro-life movement know that abortion is murder but our govenment does not see it that way. This goes against Gods laws, but we no longer reflect Christianity and Christ in America, that is obvious.
I find it sad that you show such hostility and hatred hatred towards those that have had abortions and also those lost souls involved in the abortion industry.

You joke about being a Christian, you kicked carol to the curb.....if anyone is getting paid by PP, its you.
Naw.......somthing aint kosher.
The big difference between our stances isnt the unborns right to life.
You just think there is no hope for all involved with the crime. You thought the people that Hill killed, that were injured was ok. You are for killing. That is not a true pro-life stance and it certainly is not a Christian one.
Really interesting........a real soap opera eh?

reply from: nancyu

Thanks galen for sharing that information. I don't know what many people do here concerning pro-life causes, it helps to know. Your the first that has shared that info with me.
Wow. You have been through a lot. My sister has a preemie at around 22 1/2 weeks. It was a miracle that is for sure.
I am really confused as to how people box peoples comments on here.
I assure you that I am fine, except for the fact that abortion must end.
It won't end until everyone realizes that abortion is ILLEGAL already.
I'm still waiting for you to SHOW ME THE LAW that states that it is legal to murder persons or SHOW ME THE LAW which says that unborn children are NOT persons.
The only hatred and hostility I have is toward anyone who willingly supports the legality of abortion on demand. Perhaps that is a sin I will have to pay for. I can't help my feelings about this.

I have never joked about being a Christian. Getting Paid by PP haha. I would be making alot more money than I am right now, that is for sure.
Try taking a good long look in the mirror. you might figure out what "ain't kosher"
It isn't what is it then?
What?? Where did you get this idea? ^^
Really interesting........a real soap opera eh?
To which I replied:
I've answered you as thoroughly as I know how, yet I'm still waiting for you to answer a single one of my questions.

reply from: sander

Um, having a bad day?
You are one sour, bitter human being.
I'm not doing you any favors and posting any lists, you're nasty and can't even keep track of who you're talking to.
Buzz off and the next time you tell someone how righteous you are because of your walk with God the above will be proof enough you're full of it.
No, that's not true. She was the one who went on the attack. I am permitted to post my thoughts, whether CM1 or CM2 gives me permission or not.
You have the same persecution complex she has. Just because someone disagrees on different points you make, it does not follow that you are thought of as the enemy.
I've never looked at you as the "enemy". The enemy are those who support abortion out right, no holds barred. I disagree with your stance on exceptions and contraception that causes the death of newly fertilized eggs.
It most certianly is NOT in the private forum. So, she can see it. Not that it's important, whatsoever.
Nobody should be made to post what efforts they are engaged in. This is an open, public forum, there's no price of admission.
What more do you want me to do, send her flowers? I've congratulated her on her fine efforts.

reply from: churchmouse

I have answered everything. You have not.

reply from: churchmouse

I love this quote by Edmond Burke. He said, "Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little."
And Carol I must say again that you are doing a God sized idea.
When I think about what you are doing this scripture comes to mind. Ephesians 3:20 says, "Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in all of us."
Imagine the things we can do, we can accomplish for Christ. The possibilities are endless.
I just love Janet Folger. I have met her and she is one of the most dynamic people I have ever met. She said this in her book, TRUE TO LIFE.
" With God all things are possible. All things. Overcoming a fear of public speaking. Dealing with the media. Electing ad appointing pro-life people who never had a chance. Changing hearts of opposition leaders. Passing laws in ways that have never been done. And bringing an end to abortion. WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE."
If you love someone you want them to know the truth. The Truth is Christ. And you are shaing that.
Because we choose to love those that are sinning, those that are killing the unborn , does not in any way mean we are condoning their actions. In fact if you really love, you grieve over sinful behavior. We not only grieve for the innocent child in the womb, we grieve over the ones that do the killing.

reply from: joe

Of course this only applies to those killing the unborn baby. You would never treat those that would kill a born baby the same, you know give them chocolate, tea, forgive them their sins and set them free.

reply from: nancyu

We give them these giant gift bags packed with baby clothes and blanket and diapers,bottles and toys and all kinds of baby stuff, a gift card to Walmart and of course, our phone numbers and help if they need it. We also have lotion and nail polish and things for them in the giant bag, a bible, tracts on abstinence etd...
THIS is great^^ THIS makes me happy.

reply from: Faramir

Of course this only applies to those killing the unborn baby. You would never treat those that would kill a born baby the same, you know give them chocolate, tea, forgive them their sins and set them free.
Joe,
I am not understanding your positionn at all.
First, they try to save the baby with sidewalk counseling and are sometimes successful.
Then they approach those who they didn't reach with the hope of converting them. They do not just give them "chocolate and tea." That's the least of it. They give them a bible and tracts of information too. But more importantly, they are giving hope to some women who are likely to be devastated and lonely.
They are showing concern for ALL.
What are they doing wrong? I don't see how you could possibly have an issue with it.

reply from: joe

Of course this only applies to those killing the unborn baby. You would never treat those that would kill a born baby the same, you know give them chocolate, tea, forgive them their sins and set them free.
Joe,
I am not understanding your positionn at all.
First, they try to save the baby with sidewalk counseling and are sometimes successful.
Then they approach those who they didn't reach with the hope of converting them. They do not just give them "chocolate and tea." That's the least of it. They give them a bible and tracts of information too. But more importantly, they are giving hope to some women who are likely to be devastated and lonely.
They are showing concern for ALL.
What are they doing wrong? I don't see how you could possibly have an issue with it.
Of course this only applies to those killing the unborn baby. You would never treat those that would kill a born baby the same, you know give them chocolate, tea, bible, tracts, forgive them their sins and set them free.
(Edit for Faramir.)

reply from: Faramir

Of course this only applies to those killing the unborn baby. You would never treat those that would kill a born baby the same, you know give them chocolate, tea, forgive them their sins and set them free.
Joe,
I am not understanding your positionn at all.
First, they try to save the baby with sidewalk counseling and are sometimes successful.
Then they approach those who they didn't reach with the hope of converting them. They do not just give them "chocolate and tea." That's the least of it. They give them a bible and tracts of information too. But more importantly, they are giving hope to some women who are likely to be devastated and lonely.
They are showing concern for ALL.
What are they doing wrong? I don't see how you could possibly have an issue with it.
Of course this only applies to those killing the unborn baby. You would never treat those that would kill a born baby the same, you know give them chocolate, tea, bible, tracts, forgive them their sins and set them free.
(Edit for Faramir.)
I would be unlikely to treat those who kill a born baby the same, because they would not have the same excuses of not understanding that a baby has been killed.
You and I might clearly see life in the womb as a person, but not everyone does.
Maybe some of these women who abort do not realize it until after the fact. It's sad if it has to be that way, but at least maybe they can be reached and maybe they won't abort again. And they are people too, so there is nothing wrong with treating them with respect, dignity, and compassion, even if that is not what happened with their children.

reply from: joe

I understand your point that the women might be ignorant but my perspective is that being nice to the post abortive women reinforces her belief that it was not a child, or at least a child not equal to a born child. I do not claim you are wrong, just that I see it from a different perspective. I do not condemn post abortive ministry, I just do not view it as a contributing factor to the pro-life movement. Of course there is no denying it helps the women.

reply from: nancyu

THIS IS THE KIND OF THING THAT MAKES ME WONDER ABOUT YOU. I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED "BASHING" ANYONE'S HEAD IN!?
WHERE DOES THIS COME FROM????? PLEASE ANSWER THIS ONE, PLEASE!!
IF YOU ARE GOING TO ACCUSE ME OF SOMETHING YOU'D BETTER BE SHOWING SOME EVIDENCE.
I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER SAID SHE SHOULD NOT HAND THEM A BIBLE.
THE MUG WITH TEA AND CHOCOLATE FOR A MURDERING MOM, I HAPPEN TO FIND OFFENSIVE
THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH THIS COMMENT. ARE YOU TRYING TO INCITE PEOPLE TO VIOLENCE?
.
Churchmouse, truly. I think you might have PASD. Have you checked into the possibility?
I have never seen joe complain or hate. I have never seen him do anything but defend the unborn, and he is constantly attacked for it.

reply from: galen

you know CP you are trying to use logic here to wrap your mind around something that isn't logical.
go read up on the psychology involved with child abuse and murder... from the POV of the one who did the crimes.
sorry cp but i AM NOT bashing on CM far from it... i would hope that she could be more effective in her ministry and not have the heartache that i went through... i learned the hard way what works and what does not. YOU might think that this is all about a piece of sugar... but i assure you its not.
BTW for all of you who say i'm 'bashing CM' its interesting that when i ask her if she percieves what i say to her this way... she says no. so get off your boxes and read the info in front of you...

reply from: nancyu

Of course they do. My kids think it is a great idea for me to reward them for misbehaving, too.

reply from: Faramir

I understand your point that the women might be ignorant but my perspective is that being nice to the post abortive women reinforces her belief that it was not a child, or at least a child not equal to a born child. I do not claim you are wrong, just that I see it from a different perspective. I do not condemn post abortive ministry, I just do not view it as a contributing factor to the pro-life movement. Of course there is no denying it helps the women.
When I say that there are some excuses for these women, that doesn't mean I don't think their consciences are not pulling on them.
But when they have gone through with it, and they are confronted by the same people who pleaded with them to not abort, and are given a bible and tokens of friendship, don't you think that would have some effect?
They have some excuses, but they also have a voice telling them that there is something not right about it. And when they get that gift bag from the prolifer who told them "don't abort" after they already did abort, then I would think that except for the most hardened, it would have some effect on them. They would first see that those prolifers who warned them to not abort truly did care, while the people in the clinic are saying "next," and I think that it is very likely it will make them think.
If there were people there just handing out flowers and candy, that would be a show of approval for making a "brave" choice. But when a prolifer does it, especially when it is very clear that they did not want them to abort in the first place, I think they send a very powerful prolife message to the woman, and I think they probably put her in a world of pain and conflict that they might not otherwise have, but that it would be a good pain and a good conflict, that could lead to something better.

reply from: sander

THIS IS THE KIND OF THING THAT MAKES ME WONDER ABOUT YOU. I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED "BASHING" ANYONE'S HEAD IN!?
WHERE DOES THIS COME FROM????? PLEASE ANSWER THIS ONE, PLEASE!!
IF YOU ARE GOING TO ACCUSE ME OF SOMETHING YOU'D BETTER BE SHOWING SOME EVIDENCE.
I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER SAID SHE SHOULD NOT HAND THEM A BIBLE.
THE MUG WITH TEA AND CHOCOLATE FOR A MURDERING MOM, I HAPPEN TO FIND OFFENSIVE
THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH THIS COMMENT. ARE YOU TRYING TO INCITE PEOPLE TO VIOLENCE?
.
Churchmouse, truly. I think you might have PASD. Have you checked into the possibility?
I have never seen joe complain or hate. I have never seen him do anything but defend the unborn, and he is constantly attacked for it.
Good luck with getting her to back up her OUTRAGEOUS assertions and what amounts to nothing more than lies. She only gets to spew the hatred, accuse others then sit back on her *ahem* Christian laurels.
Gee, seems to be a rash of that lately.

reply from: nancyu

I cannot judge Hitler? Funny you pro-life advocates judged Paul Hill.
Lies and hypocrisy while the children die.

reply from: Faramir

THIS IS THE KIND OF THING THAT MAKES ME WONDER ABOUT YOU. I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED "BASHING" ANYONE'S HEAD IN!?
WHERE DOES THIS COME FROM????? PLEASE ANSWER THIS ONE, PLEASE!!
IF YOU ARE GOING TO ACCUSE ME OF SOMETHING YOU'D BETTER BE SHOWING SOME EVIDENCE.
I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER SAID SHE SHOULD NOT HAND THEM A BIBLE.
THE MUG WITH TEA AND CHOCOLATE FOR A MURDERING MOM, I HAPPEN TO FIND OFFENSIVE
THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH THIS COMMENT. ARE YOU TRYING TO INCITE PEOPLE TO VIOLENCE?
.
Churchmouse, truly. I think you might have PASD. Have you checked into the possibility?
I have never seen joe complain or hate. I have never seen him do anything but defend the unborn, and he is constantly attacked for it.
Good luck with getting her to back up her OUTRAGEOUS assertions and what amounts to nothing more than lies. She only gets to spew the hatred, accuse others then sit back on her *ahem* Christian laurels.
Gee, seems to be a rash of that lately.
Why can't you give a new person here a little space, sander? Why are you always so quick with the nasty comments?
And why do you so often quote the two most hateful board memebers? Are you in agreement with their hatefulness? Do they say what you would like to say, but can't because it would interfere with your image? (Not that most of us can't see through it).

reply from: nancyu

Thank you nancy.
You are very welcome.

reply from: galen

no what i said was the brain is illogical...
i said that the percieved message of a religious tome was moralistic
and i said the percieved message of a piece of candy was as a reward
YOU say this is illogical... geee.. guess what your right... the brain is illogical...same thing i just stated...
this is not some algebraic equation that you can add or subtract from both sides and get a 'logical' answer... the brain does not usually run this way. In fact it takes more energy for the brain to think logically than irrationally... so what do you think its gonna do when its been used up during a surgical procedure... behave rationally?

reply from: carolemarie

Galen isn't bashing and I don't see it as that. I see her as disagreeing. Which is fine.
I don't agree, but then I haven't in fairness read all the articles.
It speaks volumes to me that women who have had abortions and are now prolife think it is a good idea.

reply from: Faramir

I think you're overthinking this.
They are prolife people reaching out to postabortive women in the best way they know how.
Love and compassion cover a multitude of sins and errors (if there are any there, and I doubt there are).
Their intent and motive come across, I'm sure. It's certainly a lot more than doing nothing, or posting their photos on a "wall of shame."
I think you're really nitpicking this one.

reply from: galen

nope ...
i am responding to your questions and having a conversation w/ CM.

reply from: carolemarie

Sandler, Joe supports killing people. Instead of attacking Churchmouse and telling her she has issues, why not calling Joe on his remarks. Being appalled by that view is normal, it doesn't point to needing counseling. Believing that killing people is a way to solve a problem is the prochoice view. That is exactly why that woman gets the abortion.
Joe is prochoice in his outlook. Let's hear you all tell him how wrong he is. ....the deafening silence means that you must agree....

reply from: galen

no the brain operates on an emotional level for the most part not a logical one...
A person can think in a logical manner. It takes more intelligence, education, strength etc to do so than it does to operate the baser levels... such as emotion and then lower down the instictive reactions to stimulus and the reflexes...
so again... what do you think is going to be working at the forefront when a person is coming out of a surgical procedure ... and usually for a day or 2 afterwards... especially when thier hormones are shifting around like an earthquake? Logic?

reply from: galen

CP... again you are treating this as if it were an equation or chemistry experiment and human psychology is neither....

reply from: Faramir

You don't need much logic to know when you are being loved or not.
What is your opinion of the tactic of instead taking photos of them and posting them on a website?
If you had to choose between the two, which would it be?

reply from: galen

the photos... knowing they are to be posted buys more time for the woman to change her mind...
once the abortion is done we can not save the child...you can help the mother heal after yes...but the damage is already done, so i would focus on preventing the violence in the first place.

reply from: nancyu

You folks have your priorities backwards. He has never killed anyone. He has never threatened to kill anyone. He wants abortion to stop. 4000 per day ARE dying as we speak. How many abortionists are dying as we speak?
Are you going to keep defending abortionists who practically have fortresses with armies surrounding them? Or the 4000 babies which are being killed with NO protection, NO defense, NO voice, who have committed NO crime. They are innocent, and utterly defenseless other than the laws protecting them which are NOT being enforced.
Just get your priorities straight, please. I promise from the bottom of my heart, all of my personal attacks will stop, as long as the focus is stays on the babies who are being slaughtered, instead of on the women who are offering them up for the slaughter.

reply from: Faramir

Maybe I should have worded my question differently, since in CM's case they ARE trying to stop the violence in the first place with their sidewalk counseling, and they are saving babies.
Do you think that the picture taking and posting is a better way to go than sidewalk counseling?
I'm frankly surprised you are not disgusted by it. I think it's atrocious and I think it's about has "helpful" as abortion clinic violence. It just makes prolifers look like hateful b**tards.

reply from: carolemarie

She makes me feel like that is what she would like to do as well. I don't think it is churchmouses imagination. There is real hate that comes through her posts.

reply from: joe

Why do you resort to slander, CM?
I would have stood with the Jews, I would have stood with the Slaves, now I stand with the Unborn....if that offends you, I do not give a damn.

reply from: Faramir

She makes me feel like that is what she would like to do as well. I don't think it is churchmouses imagination. There is real hate that comes through her posts.
It comes through in sander's posts too.
Her post was making some sense until the nasty dig about "hasn't murdered any children."
She's just as mean as nancyu, but in a slightly more sophisticated way.
It's really getting to be derpressing to see how much some of these people get off on debasing the postabortive.

reply from: galen

Maybe I should have worded my question differently, since in CM's case they ARE trying to stop the violence in the first place with their sidewalk counseling, and they are saving babies.
Do you think that the picture taking and posting is a better way to go than sidewalk counseling?
I'm frankly surprised you are not disgusted by it. I think it's atrocious and I think it's about has "helpful" as abortion clinic violence. It just makes prolifers look like hateful b**tards.
------------------------------------------
i am no more disgusted by this than i am by the photos of dead beat parents posted in out town newspaper... or billboards... or the pedophiles posted on the web.....
i think sidewalk counseling is a good and honorable endevour...
i myself am unable to do either, because i would possibly lead some men bac k to thier wives who are in hiding.

reply from: Faramir

You should be, and it's sad that you aren't.

reply from: carolemarie

How is it slander to say you support killing dr's? You support what Paul Hill did. That is murder and it is wrong.
To support it is to be prochoice.

reply from: nancyu

Here is my final comment to you faramir. (I'm sure you'll miss me )
Treating post abortive women with compassion, respect and dignity is exactly why they won't see the unborn as persons.
If you YOU, FARAMIR don't behave in the same way toward the unborn as you would toward a born child this message will NEVER get through to others. If YOU don't start treating abortion as though it is illegal already, it won't be treated as though it is illegal. And the laws WHICH are ALREADY THERE will never be enforced.
This is how we can spread the message, by living the message. An unborn child is a person. I honestly am not convinced that you are pro life, but IF YOU ARE, please I am begging you. Try, really, really try and understand, and live by these words. AN UNBORN CHILD IS A PERSON.

reply from: carolemarie

She makes me feel like that is what she would like to do as well. I don't think it is churchmouses imagination. There is real hate that comes through her posts.
It comes through in sander's posts too.
Her post was making some sense until the nasty dig about "hasn't murdered any children."
She's just as mean as nancyu, but in a slightly more sophisticated way.
It's really getting to be derpressing to see how much some of these people get off on debasing the postabortive.
Sander may be mean or rude, but she isn't scary. Nancy is scary....

reply from: sander

Huh?
This doesn't make any sense. What are you talking about?
What hate? Please point to the hate.
Oh, is it because I said Nancy didn't murder any children? I believe the women that walk into abortion clinics murder their children. You dont? What do you think they are doing?
Am I suppose to couch this discussion in a way that will be well pleasing to you?
The double standards that you and CM2 express here are astounding. I'm only suppose to do what you say not what you do.

reply from: sander

She makes me feel like that is what she would like to do as well. I don't think it is churchmouses imagination. There is real hate that comes through her posts.
It comes through in sander's posts too.
Her post was making some sense until the nasty dig about "hasn't murdered any children."
She's just as mean as nancyu, but in a slightly more sophisticated way.
It's really getting to be derpressing to see how much some of these people get off on debasing the postabortive.
Sander may be mean or rude, but she isn't scary. Nancy is scary....
I'm only going to say this one more time, you can take it or leave it.
Because you have said you have repented and given your heart to the Lord, work for the prolife cause, I DO NOT VIEW YOU AS THE POST-ABORTIVE.
I never even take that into consideration when I'm posting in response to something you've posted. That should be clear since I've never once brought your past up, not once.
Either you want to be viewed as forgiven and your past forgotten as God has done or you want to be viewed as the post-abortive, you tell me which, because you can't have it both ways and react the way you do.

reply from: nancyu

She makes me feel like that is what she would like to do as well. I don't think it is churchmouses imagination. There is real hate that comes through her posts.
It comes through in sander's posts too.
Her post was making some sense until the nasty dig about "hasn't murdered any children."
She's just as mean as nancyu, but in a slightly more sophisticated way.
It's really getting to be derpressing to see how much some of these people get off on debasing the postabortive.
Sander may be mean or rude, but she isn't scary. Nancy is scary....
Thanks! do you think I have what it takes to become a sidewalk counselor?

reply from: carolemarie

Thanks! do you think I have what it takes to become a sidewalk counselor? [/Q}
Actually, yes. You would be good at it.

reply from: nancyu

Thank you, very much. I truly consider that a high compliment.
I hope to try it some day soon. The only clinic that I know of in ME is in Augusta, which is some distance away from where I live. Any advice, encouragement, nudging that anyone can offer will be appreciated. Help me get started, please.

reply from: nancyu

You folks have your priorities backwards. He has never killed anyone. He has never threatened to kill anyone. He wants abortion to stop. 4000 per day ARE dying as we speak. How many abortionists are dying as we speak?
Are you going to keep defending abortionists who practically have fortresses with armies surrounding them? Or the 4000 babies which are being killed with NO protection, NO defense, NO voice, who have committed NO crime. They are innocent, and utterly defenseless other than the laws protecting them which are NOT being enforced.
Just get your priorities straight, please. I promise from the bottom of my heart, all of my personal attacks will stop, as long as the focus is stays on the babies who are being slaughtered, instead of on the women who are offering them up for the slaughter.

reply from: sander

You folks have your priorities backwards. He has never killed anyone. He has never threatened to kill anyone. He wants abortion to stop. 4000 per day ARE dying as we speak. How many abortionists are dying as we speak?
Are you going to keep defending abortionists who practically have fortresses with armies surrounding them? Or the 4000 babies which are being killed with NO protection, NO defense, NO voice, who have committed NO crime. They are innocent, and utterly defenseless other than the laws protecting them which are NOT being enforced.
Just get your priorities straight, please. I promise from the bottom of my heart, all of my personal attacks will stop, as long as the focus is stays on the babies who are being slaughtered, instead of on the women who are offering them up for the slaughter.
It's good you answered this, Nancy. You said it well, too.
But, why do we have to answer their demands when they conviently ignore our questions?
They make assertions and never back them up with facts.
Either they're children and we need to cut them the slack deserved, or we get to pick and choose what we answer. I'm doing the latter from now on.

reply from: Faramir

You totally do not get that it is not EITHER/OR.
The focus can and should be on BOTH.
There is NO "instead." It is in ADDITION. The women are persons too. And maybe we can reach some of them so they don't do it again.

reply from: galen

You should be, and it's sad that you aren't.
--------------------------------------
You know that is the most inane thing i've seen you post....
I and many others want to know who the deadbeats are... maybe if more people paid thier child support we would have fewer moms who felt they needed abortion....
I want to know if a child rapist lives next door... i can protect my underage child and nieces and nephews and the women who come to visit with thier babies....
what is your point...?

reply from: galen

You do not seem to understand my arguments. Perhaps it is because I am simply unable to express my thoughts in a way that is clear to you, and it is my fault.
At any rate, I still think that too much is being made of this, so further discussion will not be a top priority for me. Thank you for hearing me out, and have a pleasant evening.
----------------------------
possibly it is this on both of our sides...blasted tumour... hope you do read the links though... at your lesuire...

reply from: Faramir

You should be, and it's sad that you aren't.
--------------------------------------
You know that is the most inane thing i've seen you post....
I and many others want to know who the deadbeats are... maybe if more people paid thier child support we would have fewer moms who felt they needed abortion....
I want to know if a child rapist lives next door... i can protect my underage child and nieces and nephews and the women who come to visit with thier babies....
what is your point...?
You put postabortive women in the same category---that is my point.
Deadbeats and molesters are still doing their thing. A purpose can be served by posting their photos--to protect us and our children from them, and to make deadbeats pay up and support their families.
How does the postabortive woman compare with that? Posting her photo does nobody any good, and would only make her more bitter towards prolifers.
Again, I'm appalled at your cold-heartedness towards the postabortive woman. It makes no sense to me. I have not seen this kind of attitude from any other Catholic, even the most hardcore Catholic activists.

reply from: carolemarie

I thought I was replying to Sandler, not to you.
If you would be nice to people you could be good at it. It isn't hard or difficult to offer help to someone. But you would have to be really wanting to help them and willing to do it. You would have to pretend to care about the women You would have to be kind so they would listen. They don't have to talk to us or listen at all, so when one will you have to choose your words carefully.
Or you could just go and hold a sign and not have to talk to them. Lots of women change their minds because of the signs. I know several that drove by a clinic saw the sign and changed their minds. They are giving the babies up for adoption.
Just don't stay for the post abortion part. Your heart isn't there and that is okay. It isn't for everyone, just the people God calls to do it.

reply from: 4given

Your lack of sincerity is almost humorous.. and a bit sad actually.. I guess it may take more for you to "get it". Seems to me, most are quite patient with you *Dinkleberg*- especially with the numerous screen names etc.. which "make no sense to me" really.. (yep. I am- meddling in a conversation I have no place in..sorry Mary!)

reply from: Faramir

Your lack of sincerity is almost humorous.. and a bit sad actually.. I guess it may take more for you to "get it". Seems to me, most are quite patient with you - especially with the numerous screen names etc.. which "make no sense to me" really.. (yep. I am- meddling in a conversation I have no place in..sorry Mary!)
What is your point? It would have been nice if you had quoted the entire post and made an actual point. I don't mind if you "meddle" so long as there is there is some actual content.
And I don't know how you got ahold of my name, but I prefer to be anonymous on this board as you and many others are, so please edit it out immediately.

reply from: 4given

Your lack of sincerity is almost humorous.. and a bit sad actually.. I guess it may take more for you to "get it". Seems to me, most are quite patient with you - especially with the numerous screen names etc.. which "make no sense to me" really.. (yep. I am- meddling in a conversation I have no place in..sorry Mary!)
What is your point? It would have been nice if you had quoted the entire post and made an actual point. I don't mind if you "meddle" so long as there is there is some actual content.
And I don't know how you got ahold of my name, but I prefer to be anonymous on this board as you and many others are, so please edit it out immediately.
Okay. Understood.. I assume most posters can actually read, and will do so- considering the response was to a post directly above mine. I will edit out your name. I am sure I made a point with you- the person I was directing the post to. The "content" is in regard to your post-happy meddling.. but if you don't get that- chances are the point was lost. I will honor your request though..

reply from: Faramir

Thank you. I appreciate that you respected my request. I have been too free with using my real name on other boards and posting much personal information. It is not smart to do that. I have nothing to hide, but I don't see anything wrong with being prudent, as many are here.
In regard to your post--again, I have no problem with you making comments about an exchange galen and I were having.
But do you have an actual point beyond that you think I'm "insincere"?
I made an honest observation. She seems to have an "attitude" towards the postabortive that seems to be prevalent on this board. I have never experienced this among any other prolifers--just here. And I especially have noticed (with some pride) that the vast majority of my fellow Catholics have a very compassionate attitude towards women who abort--while still solidly opposing abortion.
Galen seems to be an exception. And I'm very perplexed by her attitude especially since she works with troubled women. But maybe she's become cynical. Maybe she's seen too much of the bad side of them.

reply from: 4given

Hey we are people with our own unique personalities and understanding. I respect her opinion. Because I don't agree with others ideas and tactics, it doesn't mean that I am against them personally. Again, take your issues and observations up with her. Don't spew grievances to others. I had a hard time with the gift bag bit a year ago when shared. I was disgusted at the idea that counselors would be in wait of the life/death return. I know Carole herself likely would have been saved from further harm had she met someone along the way- such as herself. Truth is most women understand what they are doing is shameful and wrong. Abortion helps keep that dark sin hidden- except to the mother that may realize the depth of her pain and sin.. However God leads one- go ahead. I know my calling isn't to do so for the post-abortive Moms, but God knows ultimately and I trust Him. I knew when I asked that she had gift bags for the Moms that didn't abort.. hence my frustration with your comments about it. I could do that.. God has a plan and I pray I will and can obey it fervidly. The focus should always be on the defenseless and innocent life mom is safegarded with. As a community we are divided. The basics should always come back to the same thing.. an unborn child is worthy of the same protection as a born child. Why wouldn't we want to fight for their protection and life? How much clinic time have you done? If none, what would you feel comfortable doing in the way of pro-life activism? Are your children involved? And your spouse (assuming)? What will your aproach be, or what has it been?

reply from: Faramir

I certainly don't put Galen in the cagtegory of "the haters," but I am surprised at the overall feeling I'm getting about her attitude toward the post abortive. But I will certainly stand corrected if I've made a bad judgement, and thank you for reminding me about her serious health issue. I definately should give her some space.

reply from: sander

"Hate" to leave all this "hateing" the "haters" posts. You hypocrites have a nice evening.

reply from: Faramir

Well I know she can't be referring to me, since she's ignoring me.

reply from: 4given

You too. Rest well. Don't you just hate that? I know sleep is important, but isn't it much better to dwell on the pity bench (stench) of nonchalance as innocent children coil up in pain before sentenced to the mud-pit grave outside the abortuary?

reply from: 4given

You mean "Keep your Rosaries off my ovaries" bit.. How often did you go to the clinics? To the one's that "joined" you- Are they still active in the PL community? Although I have encountered more pro-abort justification from the Godless, I have to say that what bothers me more is the number of Christians that are indifferent.. almost like a "they are going to hell anyway" bit.. Onward Christian Soldiers! Especially those with a mission to preserve the future generations.

reply from: carolemarie

Huh?
This doesn't make any sense. What are you talking about?
See above
What hate? Please point to the hate.
Not you--Nancy. She is vicious and scary.
Oh, is it because I said Nancy didn't murder any children? I believe the women that walk into abortion clinics murder their children. You dont? What do you think they are doing?
Am I suppose to couch this discussion in a way that will be well pleasing to you?
The double standards that you and CM2 express here are astounding. I'm only suppose to do what you say not what you do.
I was responding to your post to churchmouse. Not calling you full of hate.
Perception is everything. I feel personally attacked by you, and I believe it is because I have had an abortion. You have no problem with vicious verbal assualts directed at me,but stick up for Nancy.
You remind me of Saul, holding the clothes of the men who stoned Stephen while he looked on approving."
And your response is that I can defend myself, or its a public message board.
You are the one with the double standards.

reply from: galen

CM CP after reading the previous posts from all of us, i really think my aphasia is getting the better of my brain. So in that respect i am going to leave off this topic. i don't seem to be able to make myself clear to everyone and i guess its coming out as a 'bad attitude'..
One thing i would like to make very clear to everyone.. I DO care about post abortive women... I would not have started the work i have done if i didn't. Please bear with me... hopefully this too will pass.

reply from: cracrat

Thank you, very much. I truly consider that a high compliment.
I hope to try it some day soon. The only clinic that I know of in ME is in Augusta, which is some distance away from where I live. Any advice, encouragement, nudging that anyone can offer will be appreciated. Help me get started, please.
Go and do it. Go and do it now. Go on, get off your ass and go talk to them. Now do as you're told, I won't take no for an answer young lady.

reply from: nancyu

Oh, I see. Well it was a moment to be enjoyed even though unintentional. Maybe God wished me to believe the comment was directed to me. I think I would be good at it. And I don't think I need to be "nice" to women who have recently murdered their child.
I don't think you are good at it, because I think that YOU are TOO "nice" to people. It is sending the wrong message. Offering comfort and sympathy to the murderer of a child is PREVENTING the end to abortion on demand. I think you know this, and I think you don't care.

reply from: nancyu

Thank you, very much. I truly consider that a high compliment.
I hope to try it some day soon. The only clinic that I know of in ME is in Augusta, which is some distance away from where I live. Any advice, encouragement, nudging that anyone can offer will be appreciated. Help me get started, please.
Go and do it. Go and do it now. Go on, get off your ass and go talk to them. Now do as you're told, I won't take no for an answer young lady.
I'm on my way. That's it now, you are shut off.

reply from: joe

You are right Faramir, only one is still alive. Show love to the killer.

reply from: Faramir

I apologize for being so critical. I hope that this condition can be cured.

reply from: joe

The average "Christian" does not follow Christ.
You care about how we "look", you care about people who kill and then justify their behavior. You seem to have forgotten the one reason we fight.
It is the love for the least of these, It is the love for the innocent child.

reply from: joe

Somebody who supports ripping apart a innocent child is giving advice on how to be "nice". Stop killing children.....

reply from: joe

Yet 4000 innocent lives are still slaughtered every day. Your public perception campaign has failed Concernedparent. Being on this board has showed me that the majority of pro-life advocates are like you....the killing continues. Most major pro-life organizations agree with you...the killing still continues. Something does not make sense, why are we not winning when most pro-life advocates are indeed "nice to the killers".

reply from: sander

Now, that's just absurd. She's never said anything remotley close.
You've got the victim role down pat, I'll give you that much.
If you think Nancy is lost, maybe just as lost as any of the women who walk out of the killing fields you demonstrate at, maybe you should treat her with the same amount of understanding you do someone who just murdered their very own child?
If you're going to send her a Bible, don't forget the chocolate and tea, at the very least she hasn't murdered any children.
Huh?
This doesn't make any sense. What are you talking about?
Now you see above.
What hate? Please point to the hate.
Well, if you could just use names in your responses things wouldn't be as clear as mud.
How was I suppose to know it was Nancy you were responding to?
Oh, is it because I said Nancy didn't murder any children? I believe the women that walk into abortion clinics murder their children. You dont? What do you think they are doing?
Am I suppose to couch this discussion in a way that will be well pleasing to you?
The double standards that you and CM2 express here are astounding. I'm only suppose to do what you say not what you do.
Yet, when I read a little further down in this post I'm Saul.
I notice you totally glossed over the post following this one where I told you I do not see you as a post-abortive woman. And you didn't answer my question, do you want me to view you as post-abortive or forgiven and your sins forgotten?
I remind you of Saul because playing the "victim" suits your needs.
If you're not grown up enough to defend yourself, fine. Why do you need me, seeing you have a plenty of others coming to your defense. Are we all suppose to make this board about you, can't some of us go on to different things, maybe making it about the babies?
No offense, but I sure wish you'd learn to use the quote function, it would make it alot easier to respond.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

The average "Christian" does not follow Christ.
You care about how we "look", you care about people who kill and then justify their behavior. You seem to have forgotten the one reason we fight.
It is the love for the least of these, It is the love for the innocent child.
I have traveled with pro-lifers who use a bullhorn to yell murderers, to condemn the evildoers. I think it is important and needed. Those who tear kids apart are socially acceptable as long as they are quiet about it and those incensed by their outrageous murderous acts are nutters for raising a voice in response?
There is no calm shake your hand over the agreement table possibilities with the incorrigible.
Joe's right about the average "Christian" not following Christ. Each man does what pleases himself and what receives acceptance from other men.

reply from: sander

Some of you seem quite determined to make this forum about her.....
Really?
So, whenever we respond to her posts that's making it about her?
Are we to then just ignore everything she says?
Would you please give us a detailed list on what we are allowed to say to her and when?

reply from: Faramir

It might make them feel good and powerful to yell murderer over a bullhorn, but all it does is make prolifers look like hateful nutcases and impedes legitimate prolife work.

reply from: galen

I apologize for being so critical. I hope that this condition can be cured.
------------------------------------
thank you

reply from: Faramir

Some of you seem quite determined to make this forum about her.....
Really?
So, whenever we respond to her posts that's making it about her?
Are we to then just ignore everything she says?
Would you please give us a detailed list on what we are allowed to say to her and when?
I think you should just stop being a nasty biotch for a couple days. The bible verses are a nice touch, but your personality still shines through.
Just for the fun of it, try being cordial with those whom you disagree.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It might make them feel good and powerful to yell murderer over a bullhorn, but all it does is make prolifers look like hateful nutcases and impedes legitimate prolife work.
Maybe you propose the Chamberlain approach to working out a deal with Hitler? The wicked are wicked, only a few will change. They will run over you with a bulldozer. You must let your opposition be known, just as Winston Churchill called Hitler and crew a band of thugs intent on darkening the light of the world.
Only a very few people will respond to the message. Even sounding a message on a bullhorn, one is powerless. Each person does his own thing. Only Christ with his rod of iron shall shatter to pieces the ways of men. And he will do it in no uncertain terms when he returns. A person on a bullhorn today is only sounding a warning message to repent. He has no power in his hands. Man's government and each man decides what they shall do.

reply from: sander

Some of you seem quite determined to make this forum about her.....
Really?
So, whenever we respond to her posts that's making it about her?
Are we to then just ignore everything she says?
Would you please give us a detailed list on what we are allowed to say to her and when?
I think you should just stop being a nasty biotch for a couple days. The bible verses are a nice touch, but your personality still shines through.
Just for the fun of it, try being cordial with those whom you disagree.
Oh, would that be like calling her a *ick or *ick? Or should I tell her to put a stick where the sun doesn't shine, or how about if I call her a horese's a ss like she did me?
Which of the above would you approve for her highness? How about if I add in "nasty biotch" for good mesaure?
It's your lucky day, you're off ignore....for the time being.

reply from: Faramir

Some of you seem quite determined to make this forum about her.....
Really?
So, whenever we respond to her posts that's making it about her?
Are we to then just ignore everything she says?
Would you please give us a detailed list on what we are allowed to say to her and when?
I think you should just stop being a nasty biotch for a couple days. The bible verses are a nice touch, but your personality still shines through.
Just for the fun of it, try being cordial with those whom you disagree.
I'm ashamed to say I am as guilty of this as anyone, but we really have to stop feeding the fires....
You're right, of course, and I'm guilty too.
But there is no denying that two very different and distinct breeds of prolifers on this board.

reply from: churchmouse

It is to bad your hatred clouds your view of this whole issue.
Ahhhh. clap clap
And we all know when nancy is happy we all are happy.
I agree. The chocoate is not the issue with them. Its having to do anything with women that would kill their unborn. No you are right, the chocolate is secondary.
You are right.
I was sitting in a bistro with my daughter and overheard the waitress talk to this man about the Clinton administration and the upcoming election. We were the only ones in there so we started talking with them. We got on social issues......abortion etc. The waitress looked at me and said, I am going to Arizona State University to become a preschool teacher. She wanted her own daycare. LOL She said, I quote......."I do not care if abortion is murder, no woman should have to have a child she does not want." I about died. I never had met a person so cold and calculated as this girl. Can you imagine that? She obviously sees and acknowledges the unborn as a person, but still she does not care.
So how long should they be in solitary confinement? How long should they wear the scarlet letter IYO? You certainly do see it differently. Just curious how people treat you when you sin? How long are you in isolation?
nancy, "kicking them to the curb" is a phrase........its not to be taken literally. Geeze oh petes. The evidence is in every one of your posts.
And please show evidence that carols motives are wrong. Show us evidence that her gift bags do not help.
Nancy I am not the one that believes in violence. I do NOT believe what Hill did was right. I believe many here, you and Joe included think what Hill did was ok. For the record am I right?
And if you think abortion is illegal and you condone Hill.......then why arent you doing the same thing?
I am not saying that you or joe or anyone here for that matter does not have passion for the unborn. But you also advocate violence. And your attitudes towards the women are outrageous, based on Christian principles. Now if your not a Christian, then fine, but if you are, you clearly are going against what God commands you to do.
But then you have denied belief in Christ when I asked, so......I'm not sure you are one or not. My guess is no.
The heartbreak that you went through.....I can only imagine. You chose life for your unborns. You had a terrible act of violence happen to you and you still chose life. I didnt have anything happen to me and I chose death for mine. I know what heartbreak is my dear. I have been working now with pro-life groups for over ten years. I work with Arizona Right to Life, also Silent No More, and I do stuff for a local crisis pregnancy center. We just did a bottle drive. No one knows what will work 100% of the time. But we should still keep trying in any way we can.
I do not believe in violence galen. But ...............I am a CHRISTIAN FIRST. I do things since I have been saved to glorify Christ. I do not believe Christ would want me to show hatred towards anyone. I can get my point across without it. You are doing great work, I commend you. I can no more understand what you went through when you were raped.........but you have no clue what carol and I went through, and have lived through every since we killed our unborns.
We all approach this from different viewpoints and angles, from different worldviews. Some think women should be left alone to suffer. Like one day or one week will make a difference? I do not believe that Christ wants anyone to wait to witness. They could get hit by a drunk driver the day after they had the abortion and die without being told about Christ. Then it would be to late wouldnt it?........No Christ would tell the woman in kindness and love that what she did was sin, that it was murder, that she was wrong.
That is what I noticed from the start. There are groups here that just do not question each other. How is that honest debate?
When I first came here I was sort of getting into it with Faramir and Concerned over issues. I think I sold them both short. I said things that I should not have said. I have since realized that I judged them to fast. I still do not agree with many things they have said, based on my faith, but the love they show towards everyone is amazing.
I will still always question them as I would with anyone else, but they show more love and compassion towards the sinner, than the people here that profess to stand on Christianity do.
Amen carol. You can't be pro-life and condone killing like Hill did.....anymore than you can be pro-choice and still be pro-life personally.
They wont question each other carol.......that i do know from just the short time I have been here.
Do you know how it feels to have had an abortion?
Everyone is different.......carol needs to reach these women while they are there.
They dont stay at the clinic for three days.
So true. Wow. I just love what you said here.
Carol is showing love, she is not condoning the act. These women when they look at the mug, the chocolate, when they open that bible, they will think of the love that took for someone to care enough to give it to them. and when you are empty and low, and crying,sobbing.....when you come to terms with what you did.......you need love. With Christ all things are possible. Carol tells them that.
Is there a wrong way to show true Christian love that comes from the heart?
I am outraged at the condemnation on the part of so-called Christians here agaisnt carol. And me. It blows my mind. People that probably are doing nothing but talkin big on their computers and questioning people who are really trying to make a differece.
I asked what people here did to help the unborn. I cant go to your secret hideouts where its invitation only to find out. Galen is the only one that responded. I take it the rest of you DO NOTHING.
What dont you get nancy. Post where carol defends abortionists. They dont need fortresses. ABORTION IS A LEGAL PROCEDURE IN AMERICA. Doctors can do them in their offices. In Arizona nurses can even do them.
They are innocent and defenseless........SO WHAT DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD DO? Again what are you doing to help?
Her priorities are straight from all I have read here that she has said. You only see one person here. You only see the unborn. God sees many more. He has all the aborted unborns with Him. But the people left behind, the ones that are unsaved................HE WANTS US TO MINISTER TO. To help them come to know Christ. He sees the bigger picture. You see one thing.
At least you admit you PERSONALLY ATTACKED HER.
nancy, you need Christ.
I know where you are coming from because they are very very difficult to look at.
My friend we disagree on this one. I believe pictures show a story. Some people are visual and need a jolt. I believe the pictures of the Holocaust show the inhumanity of the crimes and I believe graphic pictures tell the same story. the story about what IS REALLY HAPPENING. Many people think the contents of an abortion are only blobs of tissue. We know there is much more. The body parts show this and could very well shock someone into really knowing the truth.
I am all for pictures and when I go and protest I am one of the ones that are holding them. This year I was holding one at this posh resort in Scottsdale Arizona at the PP event celebrating Roe. The people coming did everything they could do not to look at the pictures........there were even accidents in the hotel driveway because the pro-aborts were scrambling to get away. I think there were about 50 people with signs in front of this resort........police all around. This one policeman came up to me in the beginning. He said he was new......he asked if these pictures were for real? He was visably shaken and upset.
Another policeman came over and said, its hot and if you guys need chairs or water just let him know. With tears in his eyes he said, if he were not on duty he would stand with us.
Cars going by honking......".way to go". Its truely amazing. Of course we also got a few cars with teenagers going by that flipped us off.......but that is to be expected.
Signs however horrific tell a story and they need to be shown.
You got that right.

reply from: sander

Some of you seem quite determined to make this forum about her.....
Really?
So, whenever we respond to her posts that's making it about her?
Are we to then just ignore everything she says?
Would you please give us a detailed list on what we are allowed to say to her and when?
We've made a federal case out of a piece of chocolate.... ('nuff said)
I hope this "we" includes CM1 and CM2 because it was those two that went off the deep end with accusations that are beyond resonable, i.e., death wishes, Saul, hatred, etc..
Something's screwy about this, we're only allowed to disagree/agree and post within arbitrary guidlines set by any number of fellow posters.
You'll have to excuse me, as I'll post as I see fit.

reply from: sander

CM2 said,
Of course, there's nothing "rude or mean" about agreeing with that or saying it in the first place. *sigh*

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It might make them feel good and powerful to yell murderer over a bullhorn, but all it does is make prolifers look like hateful nutcases and impedes legitimate prolife work.
Maybe you propose the Chamberlain approach to working out a deal with Hitler? The wicked are wicked, only a few will change. They will run over you with a bulldozer. You must let your opposition be known, just as Winston Churchill called Hitler and crew a band of thugs intent on darkening the light of the world.
Only a very few people will respond to the message. Even sounding a message on a bullhorn, one is powerless. Each person does his own thing. Only Christ with his rod of iron shall shatter to pieces the ways of men. And he will do it in no uncertain terms when he returns.
Explain to us why it is "important and needed." Explain to us what it accomplishes....
Abortion isn't going away under man's governments, ever, it's going to considered a human right written in stone.
My "hidden agenda", if you prefer, is and always has been to turn hearts towards righteousness, even if I only influence one or two people, or none. I preach against sins which are currently finding acceptance with the laws of men (abortion, homosexuality).
Explain "important and needed":Noah was a "preacher of righteousness". He told people about the right way of living for years and warned those headed towards destruction about their wicked ways. Jonah's warning was actually heeded and lives saved. I'm about saving lives, the lives of the murderous adults if they would only consider and change their ways.
There is no chance abortion can be restricted or eliminated for any significant period of time. I base this on Bible prophecy that says men shall get worse and worse and will be the most evil ever when Christ returns. Man's first world-ruling government (Babylonians) was compared to gold, a large tree providing food and shelter to the birds (citizens). Each successive government was to become of lower quality, ultimately resulting in evil and adulterous people at the end of man's age of rule.
I only see man degenerating more and more and I see abortion and sodomy enshrined as rights. I am only here to warn of the consequences;but political change from man's government based on my actions? Not in my lifetime.
I see you flailing about trying to do something about a bill that died in Senate committee. Maybe you can make short-term reverses to the legislation or judgments that have gone against preborn children. You may celebrate great temporay successes. But I believe the long-term efforts to reform man's governments will not succeed; baby-killing will go on. The heart and nature of man is just to selfish and murderous to have success.

reply from: sander

CP,
I know you said "we" and not "you"....sheesh, okay fine, fine, I get it.
I agree with your post, especially the last sentence.

reply from: Faramir

That was a great post, Churchmouse, but I think you misunderstood what I meant about pictures.
I don't think it's necessarily wrong to show abortion photographs, but I do think that it could appear to be disingenuous to use late-term abortion photographs as if they represent an early term abortion.
What I was referring to, was the practice of photographing women who go to the clinics, and then posting their photographs on the internet.

reply from: joe

Your love for the unrepentant murderer clouds yours.
If I kill a innocent human being by all means throw me into prison...please. Arrest me and condemn my actions because I chose to end a innocent life.

reply from: Faramir

Some of you seem quite determined to make this forum about her.....
Really?
So, whenever we respond to her posts that's making it about her?
Are we to then just ignore everything she says?
Would you please give us a detailed list on what we are allowed to say to her and when?
I think you should just stop being a nasty biotch for a couple days. The bible verses are a nice touch, but your personality still shines through.
Just for the fun of it, try being cordial with those whom you disagree.
Oh, would that be like calling her a *ick or *ick? Or should I tell her to put a stick where the sun doesn't shine, or how about if I call her a horese's a ss like she did me?
Which of the above would you approve for her highness? How about if I add in "nasty biotch" for good mesaure?
It's your lucky day, you're off ignore....for the time being.
Thank you. I am honored and I always appreciate when a beautiful woman pays attention to me.
And I apologized for my previous verbal transgressions, so they don't count anymore.
So...what would you like to talk about? Ask me anything or speak your mind about something you think I should address, please.

reply from: sander

Some of you seem quite determined to make this forum about her.....
Really?
So, whenever we respond to her posts that's making it about her?
Are we to then just ignore everything she says?
Would you please give us a detailed list on what we are allowed to say to her and when?
I think you should just stop being a nasty biotch for a couple days. The bible verses are a nice touch, but your personality still shines through.
Just for the fun of it, try being cordial with those whom you disagree.
Oh, would that be like calling her a *ick or *ick? Or should I tell her to put a stick where the sun doesn't shine, or how about if I call her a horese's a ss like she did me?
Which of the above would you approve for her highness? How about if I add in "nasty biotch" for good mesaure?
It's your lucky day, you're off ignore....for the time being.
Thank you. I am honored and I always appreciate when a beautiful woman pays attention to me.
And I apologized for my previous verbal transgressions, so they don't count anymore.
So...what would you like to talk about? Ask me anything or speak your mind about something you think I should address, please.
How about apologizing for the latest verbal transgression? Would you like to take back calling me a "nasty biotch"?
Guess I better not hold my breath waiting for CM1 to take back calling me a horses a ss. But, that's a different subject.

reply from: Faramir

It would be nice if you could be equally gracious, and it would be nice if you could see it from my perspective and understand the frustration of being criticized and jabbed from behind an ignore feature.
But that doesn't excuse my comment, and I apologize for my use of the "b" word.

reply from: carolemarie

Oh, I see. Well it was a moment to be enjoyed even though unintentional. Maybe God wished me to believe the comment was directed to me. I think I would be good at it. And I don't think I need to be "nice" to women who have recently murdered their child.
I don't think you are good at it, because I think that YOU are TOO "nice" to people. It is sending the wrong message. Offering comfort and sympathy to the murderer of a child is PREVENTING the end to abortion on demand. I think you know this, and I think you don't care.
You can't be good at reaching out to people you hate. They are not stupid.
And I agree that your gifting isn't in post-abortion outreach.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't belive you.
The way you treat me and now Churchmouse proves that isn't true. You
never say anything to Nancy, Yoda, Joe and Faithman that is critical, even when it is horrible, like supporting Paul Hill. The only person you attack is me, churchm, cp and faramir.
I wish I would too!
I am not a victim of anything or anyone. I make my own choices and I am not now or have never been a victim. NEVER call me a victim. I hate that.
Nancy does have anger above and beyond anything I have ever felt. Faithman is a hateful guy, but I don't feel he would want me dead, Nancy, yep, I feel that from her post.

reply from: galen

chuchmouse said....
galen.......said,"so again... what do you think is going to be working at the forefront when a person is coming out of a surgical procedure ... and usually for a day or 2 afterwards... especially when thier hormones are shifting around like an earthquake? Logic?"
Do you know how it feels to have had an abortion?
-----------------------------------------
i think i have enough going on to empathise as i had a tubal between my 2 kids... did i go out and kill my children for the sake of convienence ?... no i did not.
but sense you ignored my posts to CP and CM and took it upon yourself to address me anyway... how many women have you counseled over the years... ?how many had multiple procedures? how many killed themselves after a third abortion? how many had a child and realised what they had done and OD'd? how many walked into your crisis shelter with thier arm hanging by a tendon because they WOULD NOT have an abortion for an abusive husband? how many husbands have you thrown out of your church or crisis shelter when they threatened to shoot thier wife and newborn... just because they didn't want to pay for another' brat'.... don't propose that YOU my dear have more or less experience than i do...i don't make the same assumptions about you.

reply from: sander

Let me get this straight, I've never mentioned your abortions, never called you any names, yet from an argument of silence, you don't believe me.
Well, guess you do know exactly how to "judge" and not only that are able to look inside my very heart. You've, in essence, just called me a liar. I use to be just a horses' a ss in your view, so guess you've added a new detail.
I've addressed what I think about what Paul Hill did, you choose to ignore it. That's hardly my fault.
In your own mind you've dawn lines and sides. I NEVER see you saying anything to faramir or anyone else who has attacked me, do I infer then that YOU AGREE with them? Be honest now. And have the courage to answer this question, please.
By your above response, I'd say you've made victimhood an art form. And you're mighty good at it.
You're not being rational. Nancy has never said she wants you dead. Tell you what, if she ever says that to you, I will call her on it, just as soon as you call Faramir and others on the "mean rude" things they've said, and that would include Churchmouse.

reply from: sander

What is that suppose to mean?
I do see it, hence you've been released, you are now free to roam about my posts. I presume there will still be the usual crticizism and jabbs, no?
Apology accepted for the "b" word, how about the word "nasty" too?
Or is that asking too much under the circumstances?

reply from: Faramir

She didn't say she said that. She said she FELT that.
Haven't you noticed the hatefulness of nancyu's posts? She has called CM a murderer several times. I believe she's called me that as well. I've never seen posts so hateful, and many of them are just plain psycho.
Yet you quote her and praise her and never call her on any of it, and then have the nerve to compare that kind of hatefulness with a comment like "horse's arse" or whatever.

reply from: sander

She didn't say she said that. She said she FELT that.
Haven't you noticed the hatefulness of nancyu's posts? She has called CM a murderer several times. I believe she's called me that as well. I've never seen posts so hateful, and many of them are just plain psycho.
Yet you quote her and praise her and never call her on any of it, and then have the nerve to compare that kind of hatefulness with a comment like "horse's arse" or whatever.
Well, that didn't last long. I'm all ready wondering why I took you off ignore.
I'm not going to go after Nancy because CM1 "felt" that. For crying out loud, I can't be held resposnible for what someone infers in a post. What am I, the board's psychologist or sear?
Yeah, I've got nerver all right, nerve to have taken you off ignore and have to monitored for everything I say.
Can't you find another hobby?

reply from: Faramir

She didn't say she said that. She said she FELT that.
Haven't you noticed the hatefulness of nancyu's posts? She has called CM a murderer several times. I believe she's called me that as well. I've never seen posts so hateful, and many of them are just plain psycho.
Yet you quote her and praise her and never call her on any of it, and then have the nerve to compare that kind of hatefulness with a comment like "horse's arse" or whatever.
Well, that didn't last long. I'm all ready wondering why I took you off ignore.
I'm not going to go after Nancy because CM1 "felt" that. For crying out loud, I can't be held resposnible for what someone infers in a post. What am I, the board's psychologist or sear?
Yeah, I've got nerver all right, never to have taken you off ignore and have to monitored for everything I say.
Can't you find another hobby?
You didn't answer my question, though.
It's not about what was "felt" but about the overall hatefulness of her posts.
Are you saying that you don't see that?

reply from: sander

Guess you can't find another hobby.
This is going to be a short lived off ignore at this rate.
Here's a newsflash, if I quote someone, (now take notes), it's because I agree with them and please know I don't read every single post ever written every day.
If Nancy or anyone else views CM1 as a murderer, what on earth am I suppose to do about that? Would you like me to take a rod and beat her with it?
CM won't even accept that I don't see her as a murderer/post abortive woman, so if you think I'm going to run to her defense, you've got another thing coming and so does CM.
Why don't you just concentrate on WHAT I SAY? I happen to believe nobody wants nor needs me to be their pretend mommy or pretend moderator.
So, if you want to respond to what I SAY, feel free, and stop holding me accountable for what others say.
Or iggy is just a click away.

reply from: Faramir

This is all well and good, and I see your point, but you did take it upon youself to interpret nancyu for CM.
Also, and again I see your point, but if you quote someone's post, and if in that post they are saying "killer carole" or "you are a murderer" and if you praise that post, it certainly has the appearance that you are approving of those comments as well.
But henceforth, I will do my best to respond to only your comments when I address you.
Note that I have apologized to you for my previous remarks. Are you going to return the favor and be gracious about taking my screen name in vain so many times?

reply from: sander

That's because I'm not a sear, I would have no way of knowing what CM was inferring from said posts. I read each word and go from there without trying to read beyond what is actually said. Fair?
I don't recall quoting someone else saying those things. But, I'll be more careful in the future to isolate what I'm agreeing with, that okay with you?
Thanks, that would be very refreshing.
I thought there was only one Name that could be taken in vain. Phooey, I thought fartnomore was kind of cute...but, okay....sorry.

reply from: Faramir

I thought it was funny too--the first 10 or 20 times.
But thank you. I appreciate it.
(I bet if we were all in the same room we'd all get along 20 times better in person than we do on this board).

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I must live more than 100 miles from the nearest abortion clinic, I've never protested there. But I have been near intersections were a bullhorn was used to let American citizens know they are murderers. 99 out of 100 people are lawless, putting their interests first, and subordinating the needs and rights of others. I've learned from 50 years of experience that human beings have extreme fatal flaws. Death can be the only outcome from the personal relations between people. Isaiah says: "Lift up your voice like a trumpet, and show My people their sin (sin is breaking the law)." We are required to get the truth out. One day, there shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust. I believe salvation will be offered to all at that time (except to the ones called to be saints earlier, their fate is already sealed as eternal life or eternal death) and that the witness to their lawless deeds is something God wants now. Lawlessness leads to death. Being selfish causes wars and murders. It is important that people are warned that their activities will lead to death; even if they don't respond during man's rule.
I believe in the Golden Rules, "It is better to give than to receive" and "love your brother as yourself". Abundant life free of war, conflict and death is based on being outwardly oriented to looking after the best interests of others. Being selfish and putting oneself first always leads to death. Disrespect, taking advantage of, and taking from your brother causes conflict, war and death.
Goal one of the Bible is our becoming One. Jesus prayed that we would all be One. To love one another. If you love God and love your neighbor as yourself, you will inherit eternal life. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer and shall not receive eternal life.
To summarize, we should try to make the world the best place we can. However, without a change in man's selfish attitude all the building and work will be of no available. Man's heart itself must change first before lasting success can come.
I see Mark Crutcher doesn't want to threaten the women with imprisonment (only the abortionists) and you don't want to offend those who do not think abortion is murder but may nevertheless with gentle persuasion be brought around to outlawing some abortion procedures. I don't believe in tip-toeing around. I hate the measly politicians who talk out of both sides of their mouths and appease both sides. I believe in being a straight shooter and saying exactly what I believe. Of course, that will be offensive to many. How we react is a personal choice; most people react in ways detrimental to their brother. (Murderers at heart they be.) If someone called me a murderer, I would either carefully consider it, or laugh in their face. To get mad indicates there may be truth in the message that they don't want to be confronted with. If a man thinks I'm a nut for saying abortion is the killing of another human being and goes against God's law and I'm just hassling pregnant women and unfortunate dads , so be it. They may then support the hassle free right to abortion based on seeing "nutters" in action. If that is how they react, that is how it is. No tip-toeing here. You may recall that I lost all potential at my previous employer after standing in front of their buildings holding signs of aborted babies that said "Murder". I was viewed as a guy that just didn't fit in with a diverse workforce. Heck, I don't seem to fit in with society in general. If you are extremely permissive, keep your mouth shut, and nothing bothers you, in fact, you approve of a wide range of behaviors, you will fit in quite well with today's society. Society has it's unspoken penalties and rewards system.

reply from: churchmouse

I am forgiven but my ministry is forgiveness after abortion. I have never said I was not forgiven. I want people to see how God can change lives because he saved me. I still am a woman that aborted her child. You can have it both ways. We are all sinners. I am a post abortive woman that God saved.
Are you ready now, no. Could you be, yes, only if you stop hating and started loving. But you believe in letting the post abortive woman suffer for a period of time........so there would be nothing really that you could say to them.
This is why YOU ARE NO WHERE NEAR READY.
Most pro-life groups would not allow you to be with them, they would ask you to leave.
SANDER........WHAT QUESTIONS DO YOU WANT ANSWERED?
I dont think I have missed any......you on the other hand have not answered all of mine.
Point taken....I trust you.
Faramir I also agree with you....
I am sure it was at me. I don't hate anyone here either I have already stated that a few times. I do admire how you stand your own ground, even if I disagree with you. I know your heart is in the right place.
And I have been called worse.......believe me.
Well medical science says that which is in the womb is human and life starts at implantation. They can state when the heart starts and what physically is going on inside. Medical science is not on the side of our government that is for sure.
I think you are right about the chocolate.
concerendparent you were talking about the screemers at clinics. And as a Christian it isnt my style. I think it turns people away and makes them defensive, especially when they agree with the protesters but have aborted anyway.
Personally I have never been to ONE pro-life event where there have been people screaming on either side. We usually hold signs and pray. It is usually very quiet.
Galen I hope you feel better. This topic can be draining. And sometimes we need a rest. I had been going at it for a year on another site. I was one of three pro-lifers........and every day it was a struggle to get on. I needed a rest too, so I left for awhile. You do good work....keep it up.

Like you I believe this is true, that many people do not stand on scripture to make their decisions. I do not believe he is justifying behavior.
Joe what would do you to these woman? How should we treat them?
If you are a Christian and I am not sure you are, dont remember if you stated that fact.....then there is a bigger picture here. The big picture is Christ and winning souls for Him. It is showing love to even your enemy.
For you the enemy is the woman that aborts, the abortionist. How does Christ say you should treat them? If they are unsaved how should we treat them? If they do know Christ, how should we treat them?
And joe it is to bad that you condone violence against the mother and the abortionist. I had an abortion.......what would you like to do to me joe? Be honest.
You talk about how many unborns are killed everyday.......I ASK YOU AGAIN. WHAT DO YOU DO TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE? DO YOU DO ANYTHING.....or do you just complain about how others aren't doing enough and what they are doing, and that they are doing it the wrong way.
You say nothing is working..........so give us your plan Joe.
And I will tell you another thing Joe, it is not over the top to think that you or nancy would want harm to come to carol and myself, especially WHEN YOU CONDONE HILL. So dont give me that crap, I am not stupid. You do not have to say things to think them.
You have made it crystal clear you want violence and think its the only answer. You poo poo everything else people do.......but you dont say anything about what a different approach might be.
You say carol and my approach is wrong.......then what is right?
THEN WHAT WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY? The unborn the unborn......the unborn........what about the unborn and the slaughter?
WHAT ARE YOU DOING?> WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
I agree, signs do a better job of showing the horrors of abortion. And everyone knows who does the murdering anyway.
And no denying distinct breeds of Christians as well.
Amen. Amen to this. This is the big picture.
Your entire post was wonderful...........
I agree totally. But I feel we should still do what God would want us to do and that is try to change the laws, try to reach the unsaved.
Thanks for clearing it up. I know that the pictures are more gruesome in later terms.......but it still is a living human being, from fertilization on, they all should be shown.
If my picture can be taken doing stuff in public then theirs should be as well. And if they feel they are not doing anything wrong........then why hide?
If there are cameras there.........and I have never seen them, not once...
then if they dont want their pictures taken then don't go in.
You don't get it Joe.........sigh.
Can you prove and show evidence for every woman that has an abortion, that they do not repent? Do you have to stand up on the rooftop and cry to the world that you had an abortion and have repented. Who knows if someone repents? Anyone can say anything but only God knows if they are sincere.
You seem to think you know every womans heart Joe........and you simply dont.
And you did NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION. I'll ask again. How long should they be in solitary confinement? How long should they wear the scarlet letter IYO? You certainly do see it differently. Just curious how people treat you when you sin? How long are you in isolation?
If you have broken one sin, you have broken them all. Your pride obviously is in your way.
Is a "biotch" a bad thing? LOL I thought all these years it was a compliment. LOL
If you can post where I said, sander you are a horses arse............I'll apologize.
When I am in error I have no problems apologizing, ask Conerncedparent.
Just curious if your conduct is without error?
It would wouldnt it?
Nor am I a victim. I consider myself the luckiest person in the world, that I have a Savior that I adore and love, and that loves me and that forgave me. I am so blessed to love the One that bears the Name Christ. I am so excited I want to tell everyone about Him. Especially those that will go through what I did.

Totally different scenarios. You did nothing, I did.
You addressed this comment to carol..pretty crappy. She doesn't have to say it. Who in their right mind would tell someone that? She does believe however that Hills actions were ok. She condoned what he did. So if she condoned killing someone that killed an unborn......then LOL, ha ha, he he, ROFL, why Hill and not us?
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING. You are a work, I tell ya. Nothing will be good enough for you. Talk about making people kiss your rear end, you playing the poor victim.......my gosh.
Hey honey I am not going to kiss your fanny, I'll tell ya that. Your game wont work with me, not for ONE minute.
You had someone on ignore? LOL If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen sander. You wont question nancy because your views are hers, be honest.
You obviously cant take it......and then you tell faramir to get another hobby. LOL
What is wrong with you? I did murder my unborn. I have been forgiven, but I still did it. There is a lot you could do. Be yourself, be true to who YOU ARE. Forget nancy and everyone else......forget wanting to be popular or saying the politically correct thing. Stand on your views even if they differ from your friends. I dont care who calls me a murderer, because frankly I want that. Then it gives me the opportunity to tell them about Christ and how He saved me.
It does not hurt me in the least to be callled that. So when nancy uses the term to described what I did, its ok. It shows her hatred...........but allows me to witness. And she needs witnessing to.
And faramir if you apologize to sander one more time I am gonna take out my 5 iron and give it my best shot. LOL You have said you are sorry over and over. It isnt good enough for her. Move on...............I am.

reply from: sander

Gosh, I hope so! Otherwise we might make a good espisode of Law and Order!

reply from: sander

CM2,
It's nearly impossible to reply to your posts, they're directed to too many people at one time, you answer posts that were not directed to you and so does CM1, it's very confusing. If you would please, and no offense, take one poster at a time, which is customary on message boards, and reply directly to the conversation it would go so much easier. It may also be contributing to some mis-understandings.
Your first reply was in response to something I was telling CarolMarie, not you. Earlier CM1 was replying to me that I had posted to you, again, it's very confusing.
So, if you want to respond to my posts, good. And I'll be happy to reply if you would be so kind as to isolate one poster at at time. Thanks.

reply from: sander

Okay, I just read some more of you lengthy post, Churchmouse. I'm sorry, either you're really CarolMarie or you're terribly confused, I never said you called me a horses a ss. I hope you will consider my above suggestions so things will be clear.
Okay, I just read the REST of your post...you've got problems and the're big ones.
You're no more a Christian than I'm the Queen of England.
If you're an asset to the prolife community it's a miracle, so that much can be congratualted, the rest......I won't even go there and stupe to your level.

reply from: galen

i agree with sander... and please don't post to me on this topic again... you do not know me or my circumstances and your sanctomonious wishy washiness is draining to reply to.

reply from: Faramir

churchmouse,
I'm sorry you've been treated so harshly, especially since you are new and should have been given some space.
I know exactly what you are going through, since I have been called a "pro abort" and "not a Christian." And I was also accused of being other posters. I've even been accused of working for Planned Parenthood.
I hope that all this has not discouraged you from the good work you are doing.
If I might make a suggestion--settle in and don't try to take everyone on--especially in one post. And make more posts that are positive about the good things you are doing. You have been put on the defensive and have been thrown off balance. Don't expect anyone here to help you out or lend you a hand. If they see blood they will attack.
Please go back to emphasizing the good that you do, and please do not call yourself a "murderer."
You committed a serious sin, for which you've been forgiven, but you are not a murderer, unless you fully understood what was at stake, and were not unduly influenced by other people, and your circumstances.
I'm a Catholic and have some issues with some of your theology, but I know you are a Christian, and would never question that. I want to encourage you in your mission, and I thank you for it. You and carolemarie have been so inspiring to me, and one day I'm going to get off my butt and follow your example.

reply from: sander

Tell me faramir, you could make heads or tails out of her post? She has been put on the defensive? Well, what about the rest that she is now raking over the coals, no holds barred. The hypocirisy is rank.
I'll never understand why we're not allowed to disagree on this board without interference. You pat her on the back, after taking me to task for not jumping in and defending her or her partner, well where is the defense now? You make excuses for those you like and take me to task for not slapping around those you don't.
Again, the hypocrisy is rank.

reply from: joe

37And He said to him, " '(A)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38"This is the great and foremost commandment.
39"The second is like it, '(B)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40"(C)On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
Explain to me churchmouse, how does your doctrine comply with these two commandments? How am I showing love to my neighbor who was just killed? Do I give the killer chocolate and tea?
There is no greater love than to give your life for your neighbor, that is what Paul Hill did. I cannot condemn someone who defended innocent life, I cannot be a hypocrite. I would defend myself and my family, I would be no different.
The hypocrisy in Christianity is astonishing. How come you judge Paul Hill harshly and would offer him no chocolate and tea, yet a woman that kills her own innocent children gets chocolate and tea?
Those who seek the truth will not turn away from the truth. Jesus wants true followers, those are the souls we need to win. I do not judge repentant sinners, we are all sinners. I wish you no harm, that is a honest answer.
Jesus is my Lord and Savior.

reply from: Faramir

She is new and has been treated rudely from day one. All of her comments have been in response to what has been dished out at her. If you wanted to do it right, you would have been a little more patient with her, and explained your feelings in a kind way.
But if she's wrong about something or wrong in her manner, does that make her a phoney Christian? Does that mean she is Carolemarie?
You don't think those kinds of outrageous accusations are cheap shots?
And note that I was offering words of encouragement directly to her. I wasn't coaching you or telling you or anyone else how to conduct yourself.
I know how it feels to be called a "pro abort" and a "phoney Christian" because that has happened to me several times by fellow prolifers and fellow Christians. It's kind of traumatic, actually, because that's not what one would expect from people who love babies and love Jesus. You expect they would at the very least give you the benefit of the doubt.
At any rate, again, my comments were directed to her with the hopes she does not get scared away, and that not all of us think she is a phoney or think she is someone else pretending to be someone else. She does good prolife work and should be encouraged.
If posters here had been more welcoming and less combative with her in the beginning, she could have had the chance to get off to a better start, and would not have had the need to post so defensively, which in turn offended others.

reply from: sander

To coin a phrase, faramir, that's all well and good. However, I welcomed her, never was harsh, never accused her of being a murderer, encouraged her in her posts and commended her work.
I disagreed with CM1's distrubtion of tea and chocolates within "gift" bags to women who just killed their children. CM2 came un-glued at me and has been on the ATTACK ever since. She is beyond rude and actually rather disturbing in her manner. If you read her post above, it's very confusing and you know that. She's responding to me about things I said to CM1 AS IF they were said to her, and CM1 does the same thing, it's hardly surprising to wonder if the two are one. It's odd that you want me or any others to act a certain way when attacked, but when the shoe is on the other foot, and you like that person, they get encouragment.
Double standard.

reply from: Faramir

I know that she got some things wrong, and I know she confused you with some other posters.
I know that she was upset, and said a few things that went too far.
But I also know that she, like others here, take things personally sometimes, and I believe she was thrown off balance and forced into a defensive situation unnecessarily.
It takes awhile for a new person to sort things out and know who is who, and I know I have made the same mistakes in the beginning.
You have every right to tell her or me or anyone else off if you think it's appropriate, but your message will be lost if you go overboard and tell someone they are not a Christian or are a "pro abort," etc.
I know that I have been out of line many times here. But that doesn't make me a proabort or a phoney christian. It just makes me a jackass (in those particular instances).
I know that you are older like me, and have grown children, like me, and I figure that there is sort of a double standard--that we ought to be a little more patient and understanding, and especially give new people, and hurting people, a little space.
I'm here to learn and not to be a moderator. I am going to try hard to let go of that role, especially since it was never given to me. But it just gets to me when I see someone taken to the cleaners for something good they are doing, or when someone takes comments out of context and totally misreprests someone, and I'm not saying you have done either.
On a postitive note, I have been inspired by two people on this board to do some real things to help others. 1) I think your idea of "adopting" a single mom is wonderful and is a great way to help, and that's something I want to do myself when I get a few financial problems in order. 2) I like the idea of sidewalk counseling, which was inpired by carolemarie. I think that's something I could do, but I frankly do not even know where to begin or where I would go. But I would like to try it.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Churchmouse: Thank-you for your kind comments that I have copied below. I get beat up quite a bit on this forum so words of encouragement are helpful.
In the end, because of God's mercy and Christ's Sacrifice, it only matters what we become, not what we were. If a woman previously received an abortion but now recognizes her error, and now is concerned about the well-being of the very young (unborn babies), she shall be accepted.
People on this forum have very different ideas. Some are offended by the adversarial comments and lash out in reply with gratuitus mean and hurtful comments. Others really believe, "once a low-life murderer, always a low-life selfish murderer" and provide little opportunity to forgive a truly repentant individual. Others may believe the new "pro-lifer" hasn't really fully repented of their pro-choice tendencies, and they use words to say so.
From churchmouse:
And no denying distinct breeds of Christians as well.
Godslaw said, "My "hidden agenda", if you prefer, is and always has been to turn hearts towards righteousness, even if I only influence one or two people, or none. I preach against sins which are currently finding acceptance with the laws of men (abortion, homosexuality)."
Amen. Amen to this. This is the big picture
Your entire post was wonderful...........
"There is no chance abortion can be restricted or eliminated for any significant period of time. I base this on Bible prophecy that says men shall get worse and worse and will be the most evil ever when Christ returns. Man's first world-ruling government (Babylonians) was compared to gold, a large tree providing food and shelter to the birds (citizens). Each successive government was to become of lower quality, ultimately resulting in evil and adulterous people at the end of man's age of rule.I only see man degenerating more and more and I see abortion and sodomy enshrined as rights. I am only here to warn of the consequences;but political change from man's government based on my actions? Not in my lifetime. "
I agree totally. But I feel we should still do what God would want us to do and that is try to change the laws, try to reach the unsaved
I agree with your final statements. I believe we should do what we can. I just don't expect the masses to respond positively. Just trying to influence as many as possible.

reply from: sander

Great! Can you imagine the difference it would make if everyone did something tangible? Adopting a single mom has been the most rewarding effort I've encountered. When you're ready, check with your local crisis pregnancy center and see if you can set up something thru them. They can't give out personal information, but they may be able to be a liaison between you and a mom.
Your church can be a resource too. But, in the meantime, if you don't mind a suggestion, find your local crisis pregnancy center and drop off a package of diapers, or a pair of booties, or a new baby blanket, even good used clothing is desperatly needed and doesn't break the budget when one thing at a time is given.
Crisis pregnancy centers are funded thru the goodness of others, they receive no state/fed funding, unlike PP. You will be rewarded in ways that will amaze you by doing the most simple of things.
Also, find your state pro life org. and check with them on how you could contribute your time if personal finances are in a flux right now.
Anyway, those are just some suggestions, hope you don't mind.

reply from: Faramir

Thank you for your suggestions. I appreciate them. Especially the idea of doing something small NOW. I sometimes see things like this as gigantic projects that are overwhelming, and don't consider that there are little things I could do right now to help, and I am going to follow through.
I know you felt conflicted in sharing what you do, as if that might be "tooting your own horn," but in this case I think it was a good thing to do, because it is a great example to follow, and something just about anyone can do right now to some degree.
So in spite of some of our small personality conflicts and disagreements about "style," it's only fair that for whatever it's worth coming from someone who is a jackass so much of the time, to say that I admire you for what you do, and I think that this is true prolife work and true Christian love and giving. You are truly saving babies. The prochoicers make the case that we ought to be responsible for all the "extra" babies, and that's baloney, but even though we are not obligated, it's good that we do it anyway. Thanks for being an inspiration.

reply from: sander

Thank you for your suggestions. I appreciate them. Especially the idea of doing something small NOW. I sometimes see things like this as gigantic projects that are overwhelming, and don't consider that there are little things I could do right now to help, and I am going to follow through.
I know you felt conflicted in sharing what you do, as if that might be "tooting your own horn," but in this case I think it was a good thing to do, because it is a great example to follow, and something just about anyone can do right now to some degree.
So in spite of some of our small personality conflicts and disagreements about "style," it's only fair that for whatever it's worth coming from someone who is a jackass so much of the time, to say that I admire you for what you do, and I think that this is true prolife work and true Christian love and giving. You are truly saving babies. The prochoicers make the case that we ought to be responsible for all the "extra" babies, and that's baloney, but even though we are not obligated, it's good that we do it anyway. Thanks for being an inspiration.
This is great news, that you're going to do something now! I understand that as a man you want to "fix" it all and "fix" it now, I think it comes with the territory.
The previous church I belonged to, before moving here, we had diaper drives, to which I was in charge of the program.
It was more fun doing this than a trip to Disneyland! You'll see that too, with just giving what you can. And you'll see how it spreds. I have a hard time asking anything from anyone, except for diaper drive times! I'd ask everyone I knew for any kind of help and most were more than willing to give. And what a blessing to show up at the door of a crisis pregnancy center with arm loads of goodies.
I hope others will be inspired to do just the small things, when many do, much gets done.
As a side note, I'm glad you only responded to the lower portion of my post.
I was going to go back and edit out the upper portion, but got busy around here, will do that now.

reply from: Faramir

I have to get some things at wal-mart today and want to get a few things to take to the center as my first mission.
Besides diapers, is there anything else? (I feel a little embarrassed buying them, but I suppose I could get over that). And I'm not being a wiseass by asking this--I really want to know--do they want things like chocolates and herbal tea or any other treats? Do they want basic food items like rice, oatmeal, canned goods, etc?
This could actually be fun.

reply from: sander

It will be fun.
I don't think they accept food items, except maybe forumula? But, you would have to check with them on the formula.
They don't accept car seats either, just so you'll know.
Diapers are the #1 item needed, but after that anything for a baby or even toddlers are welcomed. Don't worry, lots of men buy diapers.
I don't know if all wal-marts do the same kind of clerances, but right now, at my local wal-mart they have alot of baby items on clearance. Two dollars for packages of booties, five dollars for baby pants, 8 dollars for a package of 5 onesies....tons of good deals. Best wishes in your efforts and God will be so pleased, not to mention the darling babies that are so in need!

reply from: sander

Oh, just wanted to add, as a habit, I check the clearance racks at any store that I'm at for baby items. I just collect them as I go along, 2 bucks here, 5 bucks there, and next thing you know, I've got an arm load of baby things. It's the most fun you'll ever have, I promise!

reply from: Faramir

Baby stuff! Yuck!
I hate it.
Do you know what a relief it was to dispose of that last "used" pamper in our lives? I hated those disgusting packages of baby doo doo with a passion, and I hate reminders of it.
But I'll try to be brave.
But besides all the stuff they need for the babies, aren't the moms living there too? That's why I asked about regular food. Do they need donations of things for them too, or are they taken care of in other ways?

reply from: Faramir

Okay, so I guess I'm confused about this.
Are you referring to a place where moms can come and get things they need and then go home with them?
Or are you talking about a shelter for pregnant women and women who just had babies? A place where they actually live.
I was thinking the latter.

reply from: sander

I've never seen a crisis pregnancy center large enough for anyone to be living there, I don't think they exist for that purpose.
They are there to give advice, pregnancy tests, some are fortunate to have ultra sound equipment and they provide mothers with the things needed for their babies.
So, I think you may looking for women's shelters in that case.
But, if you want to be a part of the crisis pregnancy centers then it's the baby items that are most needed.
Don't buy diapers then, just pick up some booties. Anything is sorely needed.
I can't tell you how rewarding it is to give to these places. And if you're ever there when a mother with her small child comes in looking for help, you'll know exactly what I mean.
It's rewarding and heart breaking at the same time.

reply from: sander

You're confusing shelters with Crisis pregnancy centers. It's there to counter PP, to give the women who would otherwise think abortion is the answer a place to receive help for the "crisis" pregnancy.
It's purely a pro-life effort and yet caters to all women in that situation, whether they are considering an abortion or not.
I hope that makes it more clear, if not, please let me know.

reply from: Faramir

You're confusing shelters with Crisis pregnancy centers. It's there to counter PP, to give the women who would otherwise think abortion is the answer a place to receive help for the "crisis" pregnancy.
It's purely a pro-life effort and yet caters to all women in that situation, whether they are considering an abortion or not.
I hope that makes it more clear, if not, please let me know.
Okay, now I get it.
And I will buy the diapers, too. I was just joking about that.
Do they prefer a certain size and what brand do you recommend? The last time we bought diapers was probably around 18 years ago.

reply from: sander

I was going to say....babies do poop! LOL!
But, anyway, any size any brand is welcomed. Whatever your budget will allow. Can you imagine having the pro-life movement beg you to not abort, then not be there to help? I can't and I know you can't either. Imagine having a tiny baby with no means for diapers, any brand will be a blessing.
Oh, and any size, really, but newborn size is a good place to start and are usually less expensive.

reply from: sander

Sheesh...I keep forgetting to give details.
But, they like to give each pregnant woman who comes in there a layette. What's a layette you may ask? Diapers, blanets, sleepers, t-shirts, baby lotions, diaper cream, baby shampoo, wash cloths. So, you can see anything is needed and greatly appreciated. If you have a mind, there are small sets of baby lotions, etc. that come in one package, mothers use them for their diaper bags and the crisis pregnancy centers like to give them as part of the layette.
I hope I'm not over-whelming you with all of this, but it's such a passion with me and I so appreciate your willingness to participate!

reply from: Faramir

I did an online search and I found a crisis pregnancy center in my town run by the state Right to Life group. On their website they have a means to donate money, so I'm wondering if that's what they prefer.
Do they want the actual goods too? That's what I prefer at this point. I like the idea of giving real stuff.
It's funny, but sad, that they've been there all this time right under my nose, just a few blocks from where I've had an office for years, and didn't have a clue they were there or that they could have used my help.
Unfortunately I can imagine it because that's all "they" have been saying--that we don't care about born babies, etc. etc.--and I've believed them. But no more. I know now that there are enough people who care and who will help evey last one of the "extra" babies that come along. I don't know how I could have been so blind and so absorbed by my own problems not to see that I could have been part of a solution for a long time. But better late than not at all...

reply from: sander

Fabulous! There are actually more crisis pregnancies centers then there are PP clinics! Yet the CP centers remain in the background as the proabort movement gets the coverage.
Then go with your heart and give goods. When God opens the door to do more, than money is great too! Either way it's a great help. Most crisis preganancy centers are run by volunteers, usually from a church in the area. The more funded ones have the ultra sound equipment.
The timing is right, trust God on this. But, it speaks to what I said above, they get little if any coverage. They do the silent work of the Lord. But, anything you can do to bring it to the attention of others is another great way to serve.
Yes, indeed, better late than never! And don't beat yourself up over the timing, it's all in God's perfect will that the time is now, I truly believe that.
God bless your efforts, you may be surprised the directions He leads you in this.

reply from: churchmouse

You are right my posts are to long and I do address to many people. But for the life of me......I hate all those boxes, I cant follow them. Many times my name is in a box......associated to something I never even said.
I enjoy this site but the other one was better as far as posting and being able to read posts. I'll try I cant promise.
I'll try to make it easier. I just have so much to say. LOL
Why am I CM2? Is there another Churchmouse that I dont know of? I would appreciate at least using some portion of my name....so I know. How about mousie, that is what they called me on the other board. Just a suggestion.

reply from: churchmouse

You are entitled to your opinion sander. Of course you wont' go there because sander your problem is......that you cant IMO see the BIG PICTURE. You leave everyone but the unborn out of the equation. That is sad. You won't address the questions I ask because obviously you cant, not because you won't.
I will say this to all concerned. (I dont mean concernedparent) I am who I am. You do not scare me, or intimidate me and you will not succeed in trying to run me off, or shut me up. This is a public forum and if you want to hate, bash or say cruel and nasty things about me then do it. I guess there are private forums by invitation only so I'm told, LOL, where you can go and really cut loose and show Christian love. I do not care what you say about me, or how you judge me.
Further more galen.......I will continue addressing posts here, whether they are yours or anyone elses. It is my right to post a reply whether you like it or not.
You do a real good job of pointing fingers.......and bashing people, but you never actually answer or address anything.
If you think I am not Christian, then by all means, show me my error. Give me reasons why I am not and BASE THEM ON SCRIPTURE.
________________________________________________________________
Faramir my friend thank you for your kind words, you give me criticizm in kindness and I will take your advice. When they attacked carol........I went to bat for her, not just to protect her, but because I know in my heart and based on the scriptures and the Lord that we both love, that she is in line with what Christ commands. She does not need defending, and she has proven herself calm and unshakeable. God bless her.
But one thing....I did murder my unborn. There are people here that love to emphasize that fact anyway they can even if they cloak it in pretty little words. I know what they say and how they mean to say it.......I have heard it all before.
I am not perfect and I wear my heart on my sleeve most the time.......I hate no one here, I truey dont, I feel sorry for them, that they feel violence and hatred is the answer. If it is one thing that separates us from God, it is unforgiveness. They wish grief and pain on the post abortive woman.
But I will not cave in, never have to views I do not find in line with what I believe that scriptures say. Jesus called sin, sin.......but HE DID NOT STOP THERE. He did not forget people. He wants everyone to come to Him. Some here obviously forget that fact. And women that have killed........adulterers, liers, lusters, idolitors......can be forgiven.
I am not Catholic but the majority of people I work with are. CAtholics are the one faith that really stands up for the unborn. We disagree on a lot of doctrinal issues but agree on the important thing.....JESUS CHRIST.
Satan wants to divide and he loves it when Christians argue and fight. This is not good here and I am praying about it, that we would find a common ground. The center here is not the unborn child........it is Christ and His will for all of us.
People can discuss abortion all they want, they can research, picket, write books, blog....but unless you have had one and you have dealt with everything that goes with it.......you do not understand what someone has gone through that has had an abortion. Carol and I have that in common, we know. Our experiences might have been different, but we know.
We do this work, (I like to call it a ministry) for a few reasons.....and I am sure Carol would also say, that Christ is the main reason we do it. That people need to know and come to Christ. It is all about Gods Grace. We are excited about what God not only has done to our lives but want to share how He can also work in others lives as well.
I cant remember the book and verse......." Be kind and compassionate to one another forgiving each other, JUST AS CHRIST forgave you."
God allowed me to hit rock bottom to show me my own sinfulness and to show His Lordship, that I needed Him. Not only do we want to educate and try to reach women before the abortion, we want to minister to those that already had one and are lost and unsaved. Because we do this, we honor God. I believe we see the bigger picture and we do not compromise anything in the process.
It would be easy to find another hobby, play golf, tennis, scrapbook........we choose to work in this field because we have been there. If you are excited about something you want to share it with others. Christ should make all of us excited. And if you dont have Christ in your life......you need Him.

reply from: churchmouse

JOE
It's not MY doctine, it's what Gods Word states.
He says forgive. Unforgiveness separates us from Him. Why do you want to be separated from Him?
You can state Gods Word in kind ways.
After I became saved, acknowledged what I had done I was a very loud mouthed about my faith. I was on fire for Christ and I did it ungodly ways. I would witness the truth but not in kindness. Another pro-lifer gave me these two verses. I still pray on them today. You posted scriptures.........I have a few too.
"The discretion of a man deferreth his anger; and it is his glory to pass over a transgression." - Proverbs 19:11
"He that is slow to wrath is of great understanding: but he that is hasty of spirit exalteth folly." (Prov. 14:29)
I have learned that with maturity in Christ comes understanding and self restraint especially to deal with people in hard times. It has to do with the heart, not the head.
One who finds himself having habitual problems controlling his anger most likely has a heart condition that is predisposed to heated arguments, rather than the sentiments of love, mercy or kindness. Before one can correct the more outward problem of anger, he must first cleanse his impure heart. I obviously although a Christian had an impure heart.
I hated myself after the abortion, and I hated the women that were getting them after God saved me. This is what I mean by impure heart. Hatred...something Satan counts on us doing.
Paul said, "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience." - Heb. 10:22
It is only until our hearts are centered on God and God-like characteristics we are then able to control our outward words and actions.
It is not pleasing to God that we use malice and anger towards anyone. We are to display kindness and love in our dealings with others. EVEN THOSE THAT TALK BAD ABOUT US OR MAY DO UNKIND THINGS TO US.
I love the Proverbs.
"A wrathful man stirreth up strife: but he that is slow to anger appeaseth strife." - Prov. 15:18
"He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city." (Prov. 16:32)
We do not glorify God by standing outside abortion mills and calling woman names. In fact the scriptures say that one that shows self-control has inner strength of character.
The psalmist says, "The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy." (Ps. 103:8)
Here is one for those that do not have control.
"He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls." - Prov. 25:2
It is important to learn self contol so that our anger is pleasing to God not destructive. Paul has a lot to say about this. This is something I had to learn.
"Above all things have fervent charity [love] among yourselves: for charity [love] shall cover the multitude of sins." - I Pet. 4:8
"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." (Eph. 4:31,32)
If we want to be true followers of Christ we can still speak the truth, even while we control our anger and even if we are hurting.
It is the anger and the hatred that a few of the people here show for the sinner, that is wrong. It is not intune with what Christ was all about.
How am I a hypocrite? I do not hate Hill.
Paul Hill sinned by killing the people that he did. While I do not condone what Hill did, he still was a human being that God loved. God will judge him for his actions. I would have shown him love, while telling him what what he did was wrong and telling him to repent. I dont think he did this and he went to his death with a unrepented heart. I pray I am wrong that he did ask God to forgive him.

reply from: Faramir

churchmouse,
If I could give some advice based on my own mistakes here--forget about fighting for the sake of fighting as tempting as it may be.
I have been making all these wonderful posts about being kind and compassionate, etc. etc., but have been hypocritical and have been nasty and mean in trying to fight it. I tend to get so caught up with the argument, that the overall subject no longer matters. I start to enjoy the brawl, and at that point it wouldn't matter whether the topic is abortion, religion, or bowling. It's just fighting for the sake of fighting.
I'm not going to criticize sander now, because we've made peace of sorts, and I want it to be a real peace, and not just a temporary cease fire.
She has rubbed me the wrong way at times, and I have lashed out at her in ways that were worse than what I was accusing her of.
I know that she is a good person and I know that she questions herself about going too far at times.
I think it's best, if you don't mind my saying, to forget the differences for now and find some point of agreement and move on.
Between sander and carolemarie, I have been inspired for the first time in my life to actually do something beyond just thinking and talking about prolife.
Today I visited the crisis pregnancy center in our town. They were closed, but at least I know exactly where it is now, and tomorrow I will call or visit and find out what I can do to help them. Before I buy diapers or any tangible items, I just want to make sure that is how they do things there, and if that's what they want, I'm going to making shopping for baby items part of my regular shopping list. If they don't want that, then I will find some way I can contribute.
So you sander and carole marie have something in common. It is your actual doing and your making practical suggestions that made it clear to me that I actually can help. That it's not too big of a task. That there is something I can do that feels right to me, and that as soon as tomorrow I can start being of service and start being a REAL prolifer.
If it were not for people like you and your example, I'd still be doing nothing, and thinking it was all too hard and too involved to play a role. You and sander are on the same team and are both doing good things, so I hope you can get past this. IMHO the best way would be to just move on and think of all these words as water under the bridge, and start over.

reply from: churchmouse

Thank you. It does take a while. And I do not get this posting style here yet. People quote things in multiple boxes and I am having a hard time getting use to that and following it. I still to this day can't figure out who believes what. I have asked a few people what they do for the pro-life cause, if they in fact are Christians and they dont answer. I was told rudely when I asked a question, to go find the "list" that they were not going to answer the questions again. LOL
List? Where? Where do I go to see this list? Some here do NOT WANT TO SHARE INFORMATION ABOUT THEIR BELIEFS. They are defensive and sensitive about it. So how am I suppose to know?

Look guys there are some of us that just simply do not like each other, and that probably will NEVER change. I might love them in Christ but not like them and that is ok. I would like to try to get along however and make peace.
I'd like to tell you about what our local crisis pregnancy center did. We gave out plastic baby bottles to organizations and they filled them with money over a period of a month or so. Its something Sunday schoolers can take home that is easy. They collected a lot of money. There are so many things to do. They do wonderful work.
I might add sander that our center is lucky enough to have ultrasound equipment. We share the space with Silent No More and a few other pro-life groups.
There is a home down the street where woman can go for help and a place to live. There is a store set up at the center, with toys, and layette stuff and the girl can take what they need.

_____________________________
I agree. Although I think our civilization has a bit of decency left through some law enforcement and reason...... we might be horrified by some criminal acts, we are going downhill fast. We have yet according to scriptures seen the real horror of complete lawlessness. We are getting closer. I believe God is allowing this to happen to show people and the nations of the world their own sinfullness and to show them by experience the true alternative to the Lordship of Christ. I read 2 Thess. before church today and it talked about this very same thing. Things are going to get worse not better as man tries to live without God. Included should be the Christians in name only that do not walk with Christ.
Abortion I believe will never be illegal again, same sex marriage will be accepted, polygamy, sodomy as well......etc.....The Hate Crimes legislation will become law all over and we will be like Canada and Sweden.......Christianity will be criminalized. Pastors will not be able to stand up and quote Leviticus and say anything negative about sin.
If we are a nation that can allow women to murder their own children......we can allow just about everything.
My hope through the work I do is to lead people to Christ. To show what Christ did in my life and what he can do in theirs. I plant the seed, HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE REST.

reply from: nancyu

To churchmouse and carolemarie:
You seem to have the need to judge me. It's fine, I asked for it, I got it. The problem is that you are misjudging me.
I do NOT wish either of you dead. I do not know where you got such an idea in your head. I do NOT hate either of you. My hatred is for the murder of unborn children. I am not crazy about murder of anyone. I'm not crazy about the death penalty. I'm not crazy about war, I don't want our soldiers to have to die for our freedom. I would very much prefer that no one would try to take it from us.
I am horrified by the idea of euthanasia. I had a young niece who had a tragic accident as a child. She was on life support for some time. Some believed that she should have been left to die at that time. She was not, thankfully. She went on to have a very full, very beautiful life. She recently passed away at the (still young) age of 35 from Cancer. Death is a heartbreaking part of life. This doesn't mean we should rush it along. Every moment, of every life is precious.
I love life. I don't want anyone to die. But to me, there is nothing worse than death caused by abortion. Nothing more horrible, nothing more shameful. To end a life simply because it can't be seen. As though closing your eyes while murdering a child would make it not murder. A child, safe in its mother's womb who did not ask to be there. This is pure, innocent life. A person who has done no harm to anyone.
I know that there is no one person who is to blame for abortion in our world. The reasons for its existence are infinite. Many of us feel so much anger because we want so desperately to see an end to it; we so desperately want it to never have happened. And we don't know what to do with our anger, or where to place it.
Our hands are tied when we try to do any tiny thing in defense of the unborn. When we say that it is wrong to reward an abortive mother, we are attacked and accused of being hateful and unChristian. Well what is Christian about abortion?
I have been over and over the issue of forgiveness. You two claim that you are forgiven by Christ and by God, and that we should (or must) do the same. Unfortunately for you both; some of us human beings are not so quick to forgive, and I happen to believe, rightly so.
I know that we must begin today to state the truth about abortion and we must begin today to call abortion by its true name. It is murder. It is murder of the most innocent and defenseless. If we continue to accept it as an unpleasant fact of life we will never see its end. It must end, and the only way for it to end is for the truth to come out. And the truth hurts. Especially for those of you who have experienced it first hand.
This is a forum where we have some anonymity, so we can be a bit more judgmental than perhaps we would be in face to face situations. There are many people out there in the real world who feel the same anger and frustration that I do, who won't tell you the truth about how they feel. And unfortunately Faramir and others might not be there to defend you if they do. Something you might want to prepare for, because momentum is building for the pro life/ pro personhood movement, and the more people talk about it, the braver, and bolder they will become in speaking out in defense of the unborn.
This is the last I will say on this subject. If either of you would like to extend a hand of true friendship, I will accept it. If ANYONE says ANYTHING that I believe will help to perpetuate abortion on demand, I will address it. It doesn't mean that I hate you, or that I want you to die. Nothing is further from the truth. There is no need for you two to feel special. I won't treat you any better, or worse than anyone else with whom I disagree. I expect anyone to do the same to me. But please limit your attacks to truthful ones, or I will not respond.

reply from: churchmouse

NANCY
Thank you for the post, it helped to clear a few things up in my mind. I will address a few things you said.
I never judged your heart and if you think I did, I did not mean to give that impressiong. I judged what you stated in your posts......more actions through words. Only God can judge our hearts. I beieve you stated that you condoned Hill and that indicated to me at aleast you were for violence agaisnt abortionists. I have a problem lining this up with scripture. I do not believe in violence only in self defense. Then you attacked Carol which I felt was unfair.......and of course I hopped in with my whole body and the rest is history. I was under the impressiong that you hated women that had had abortions and that you wanted them to suffer because you wanted a waiting period to leave them alone after the abortion. To me this is not Christlike behavior.
Well I told you where I got the impression from. But we murdered our unborn children nancy. We didnt do anything worse than the abortionists do. They would not have jobs if women did not book appointments. I also wrestle with the death penalty and have done countless deductive Bible studies on this with friends. They tell me the Bible is pro-death penalty and I still have a problem with this. I dont like war. I am not for stem cell research, not for euthanasia either. I love life and think it is precious. So we certainly are on the same page on those.
I agree. I think rape agaisnt a child is terrible. There are a lot of crimes that are just to horrible to even comprehend. But Satan is alive and well.......and we see evidence of this around us every day. Murder is murder........and abortion is murder. It is first degree murder on an innocent life even though our shameful government does not see it this way.
So we agree on this too.
A lot of people are to blame but none more than the woman who walks in.
We live in a society that does not honor God, that does not put Him first. We live in a generation where we celebrate the deviant porn is king. If it feels good, do it, even if it hurts someone else. Its all about "me."
God did not make it so that we could understand everything. I cant believe that God would even let this go on. But I have to trust in HIm that His way is perfect. I am doing what I can do, trying to stay on that narrow path. When I pray I not only praise God but I also give Him my anger.

It seems that way doesn't it. We have two parties, Democratic and Republican and they do nothing really to make a difference. We have pastors all over this country that do NOTHING. If they would stand at the pulpit and preach about this.....if they would light a fire under every Christians arse.......maybe just maybe things would change. But they are to afraid to lose the tithers to take the chance.
Our focus nancy has got to be on Christ. He said, witness to the lost. No woman that was walking in the light of Gods word would choose abortion. I am telling you abortive woman are lost and are living without God. We need to reach them. Try to get to them before........but if we can't......we need to win souls for Christ. He is the bigger picture in all this. He will punish those that sin agaisnt Him and dont repent. We need to love. And through love, things can change.
You have the right to have feeling against carol and me. But if you are a Christian and live by Gods Word, you must not only forgive us but forgive other that sin. If you have broken even ONE of Gods laws you have broken them all. A sin is a sin.
Have you ever sinned, hurt someone, lied? Have you ever cheated, lusted? Stolen something even little? Have you ever coveted? If you have you are in the same boat as every other human that has ever lived. And if you think you are better than anyone else because you think you sin less, then I believe you better do some soul searching. Not one is righteous, not one. No one deserves His forgiveness. And if He could forgive me, if He could forgive you then you have to forgive others. Unforgiveness separates you from God.
Yes it is easier nancy to hate online isnt it? I am sure there are people that think what I did is unforgiveable. But you know what, I dont care. The only forgiveness that matters to me is Gods for what I did. If you cant handle it that is your problem take it up with God. Unforgiveness is GOING AGAINST ALL OF GODS COMMANDMENTS. If you want to do that then fine. He will judge you at the Great White Throne. He will be the one you will be accountabe too. And when He looks at you and says, "Nancy why could you not forgive, I forgave you." What will you say, what excuse will you give?
You need to take this up with God nancy, its something no one else could possibly help you deal with.
I would like that very very much nancy. I appreciate you asking. I accept what you say with love and believe me I understand how you feel. I cant help you however with this issue, that is something through prayer maybe God can help you with. He knows your heart and will give you the strength that you need if you ask.
We all should all try to make our posts thoughtful ones and try not to attack. I will try if you do. Lets start over........God bless.

reply from: faithman

Here is the really stupid thing about the last post. We must go on the attack to end womb child slaughter. We are not going to "out nice" abortion to an end. It will stop when we place the same value on the womb child that we place on the born child. This school girl emotionalism that "pro-life" has adopted, has made sure, morer than anything else, that abortion on demand has remained legal for over 3 decades. I could care less how many baby killers get their feelings hurt. I could care less how many neo-lifers are exposed for the failure they have caused by protecting the abortionist more than the babies the abortionist kills. I could care less how many post abortive subversives get exposed for the false pro-lifers that they are. When one kills womb children, they give up their right to respect. They have no dignaty, and when they kill humanity in the womb, they give up their own. If you can't keep your eyes on the womb child, then sit down and shut up until you can.

reply from: carolemarie

The problem of posters thinking remarks were dirrected at them when they were not could be solved if people would post the screen name of the person they were speaking too. CM1 and CM2 is too confusing.
If it is too tiring to type carolemarie, you can just type carole. That would cut down on confusion.

reply from: churchmouse

What are you doing to make a difference, mind sharing?
The reason abortion is legal, is because the Chritians sit back and do nothing. We are considered a Christian nation but most Christians do not practice the faith.
People sit back for the most part and do nothing. That is why I ask you what you do. What do you do for the cause besides whine?
My feelings are not hurt and you will not shake me by your hate speech here. You make me pray even harder that people come to know Christ and I will pray you do too.
What is the definition of being pro-life IYO?
Violence? Is that the answer?
You are a hateful person and I can only imagine the rage you might show if push came to shove and you were faced with one of the millions of woman who have had an abortion. You are scary.
And honey........if you think I take one thing you say seriously, you have another thing comin.
I will not sit down and shut up. Stick around you will see.
You can say that again. Thank gosh we all have tough skins.

reply from: nancyu

I agree. This is why I am here. My mother had a saying: "You've made your bed, now you have to lie in it."
If a post abortive woman wants sympathy and comfort she will NOT get it from me. I hope she goes home alone and wallows in misery, and truly understands what she did. If you two wish to start some post abortive women's sorority to get together to share your stories of woe, I want no part of it. I find it disgusting and disrespectful to your lost children. The attitudes you are preaching will perpetuate abortion on demand.
Maybe this is what you want. If you keep the flow going, you will never need to be alone in your pain and misery.
Concernedparent and churchmouse I think you should re read this part: If you can't keep your eyes on the womb child, then sit down and shut up until you can.
I am not trying to make peace at the moment. There will be time for that after abortion goes away. At least until I see that the focus is put on ending abortion rather than on comforting those affected by it.

reply from: joe

Until the day you treat unborn life equal to born life...you are a hypocrite and we will stand divided.

reply from: churchmouse

You sure, because with every post you seem to spew hatred at those who don't see this the way you think they should. From all observations you do not in any way show love towards anyone. You seem to be very self-righteous. And I hate to bring this up to you but, if you have done any research and read about birth control, (which I believe you admitted you were on) it also could have been an abortificient. If you have taken this, you also could have caused an abortion.
http://www.jimanddoni.com/ChooseLife/FactsAboutBC/FactsAboutBc.asp

I believe that life starts at fertilization and is worth the same as a life in the womb at 9 months. So whether a woman on birth control aborted at home, or it happened a few weeks down the line in a clinic, it nevertheless happened.
Christ can help you nancy. He helped me. Accept Him as your Savior and He will take the pain away. Until then, you will wallow in your own self pity and continue to show hatred towards people no worse than yourself. Christ is the BIG PICTURE.
?????? You do. You love the aborted fetus. But anything out of the womb, you seem to hate.
Nothing. There is nothing Christian about abortion. To sin is not Christian. Do you sin? But how dare you ask that question and stand on Christianity, when you cant even grasp what Christ was all about. You are a hypocrite about it nancy. Christ came to save the lost. That means he came for everybody, even you. He is about love and He is about forgiveness. He is just and He will judge righteously. He will show His wrath on the unsaved, those that have not repented and accepted Him. He will show His wrath on those that do not walk but talk. JESUS IS YOUR FORGIVENESS.
(2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV)
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(I John 1:9 KJV)
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(Hebrews 8:12 KJV)
(12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
(Isaiah 55:7 KJV)
(7) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
(Isaiah 1:18 KJV)
(18) Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
(Psalms 32:1-2 KJV)
(1) Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. (2) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
http://www.jesusfolk.com/Bible/Topics/jesus_forgiveness.html

Praise God that when I asked Him into my heart I was forgiven, washed white as snow, and He covered my sin. He was loving and faithful to me. His Grace saved me, certainly no work that I did.
nancy you might hate me, and I think you do. You might mock me and I think you do in every post, you might never find it in your heart to forgive others, not even yourself, but.........HE LOVES ME. HE LOVES ME. And He also loves you and will forgive you. It doesn't matter what you have done. He will wash you clean as snow. And if you repent, and walk on that narrow path.....You will be rewarded in heaven.
I see that and I hate to tell you but your forgiveness does not matter to me nancy. That is what you don't get. I see a bitter, hateful person when I read your posts. I see someone lost. I am more concerned that you are not saved, then your views on abortion. God wants me to be confident in His forgiveness, he does not want me flagellating in my past sins. He knows about my past and guess what nancy, He loves me in spite of it. That is what I want to tell other people, particularly post-abortive women.
If I did not forgive myself, it would be no compliment to God. It would be an insult really. It would be like saying I believe that the blood of Christ can cover and cleanse the sins of the most heinous offender but my sins are to great. What you did for me Jesus was not enough. I would be insulting the character of God.
So.......I praise God for forgiving me.
Yes there are a lot of people that feel the way you do. But not true Christians. Christians forgive and want to help the lost. You want to damn them and hold them accountable for things that God has already forgotten and forgiven them for.
I believe your heart is hardened even though your intentions for the unborn might be right. No one need defend me nancy. I have Christs armor on. I would die for Him. Faramir has been a good friend since I came here. Faramir has talked in love and held me accountable to Christian values, which as a Christian Faramir should do. She gave me suggestions, I took them.
You obviously do not do anything with pro-life groups. We have post abortive woman that are the heads of many organizations and groups. We have religious speakers like Stormie Omartian,(who has had three abortions) Mark Crutcher, Nancy Folger ........., come and speak. No nancy, you are alone in your own hatred. No Christian would act like you and be able to work, or participate in any event that we had. We do not have hateful people yelling and screaming at our events. It does not happen. If any yelling and screaming goes on.....its from groups that are not associated with Right To Life groups. Sorry.
You obviously did not really mean this. LOL
And to throw more salt into the wound.....
You want no part of Christ, not the forgiving Christ that I know and love. If you told me that you were not a Christian, then all your statements would make sense nancy. But I think although you have not come forth and admitted that you are a Christian, (I wonder why) that you claim to be one. So in that case I can hold you accountable as well. And you are not following what Christ commanded of you. I'll say this kindly........you have unforgiveness in your heart and when that happens, you separate yourself from Him.
nancy I have been forgiven for the abortion I had. I know you cant understand that, and that you don't want that to happen......but I have been forgiven. Christ assures me in scriptures that I am made new. I am not alone.......in anything, because I have Him with me at all times. He will not leave or forsake me. I AM NOT ALONE.
I take the Great Commission very seriously. The unborn is not the Big Picture, nancy, Christ is. If we can lead people to Christ, if we as a country could stand on what Christ said to do.........abortion would end. We should continue on in our fight to outlaw abortion..........we should always keep an eye on the unborn in the womb. But we can do both, and that is what Carole and my ministries are all about.
So so sorry you cant see that.
God Bless

reply from: churchmouse

And what do you do Joe? To help in this cause?
What do you do?
Who is the hypocrite here?
Are you all talk?

reply from: joe

So you make the slaughter of the unborn humane by treating the murderer with love. You allow others to see this perverse love so they can justify their current and future abortions.
You perverted the word love and the Christian teaching. You perverted forgiveness so other will "like" you, and you "feel" good about yourself.
Forgiving the unrepentant women of her sins (which you have no authority) and by extending false love you are guilty of this innocent blood. You do not treat other murderers the same...hypocrite. You condone the imprisonment of other murderers and yet you forgive and free those killing their own innocent children.
You make this sin socially acceptable, you make this sin your own. I love the unborn as if they are Jesus in the womb and will not take part of any action that condones this slaughter.
The truth is not easy.

reply from: nancyu

churchmouse:
I'm still waiting for you to show me the law which states that it is legal to murder persons.
I'm still waiting for you to show me the Law which states that an unborn child isn't a person.

reply from: churchmouse

And I am still waiting for you to acknowledge or reject Christ nancy.
What state acknowledges that abortion is illegal and what state that grants the unborn personhood....which would make abortion murder.
You must think that the people in Colorado are nuts trying to get legislature to acknowledge personhood for the unborn..........since in your mind they have done that already.
What states outlaw abortion nancy? Google it honey see what ya come up with.
___________________________
And joe you did not answer my question. LOL
I knew you wouldn't so its not shocking. You do NOTHING for this cause, but whine and show hatred.
Are you blind? If so have someone read the scripture for you. You obviously are not a Christian to know what the scriptures say. Until you do, you cant discuss it as a Christian.
Joe said,
See another thing you don't get because you do not understand Christianity is that........ Christ forgives sins. He also commands us to spread the Good News, that Christ died for our sins.......that if we repent He will forgive us and we will be new. Its all in the scriptures...........I am sure nancy could point them out to you. LOL She might avoid them, but she knows where they are.
I do not condone anything.
You are so full of hate Joe........how do you function?
Sin is socially acceptable in our country. I do not in any way make abortion socially acceptable. You love the unborn and hate everyone else.
You do not walk the talk. You do not do what Christ COMMANDS YOU TO DO. You are trying to do life your way not His way.
And what will you tell Christ Joe when He looks you directly in your eyes and asks why you hated, why you did not do as He commanded, by forgiving others.
What will you say to Christ when he says, Joe I forgave you when you repented, am I not to forgive anyone else? What will you say when our Lord asks you why you held yourself up higher than your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? What will you say when Christ asks you, did you spread my Gospel Joe?
Just what will you say Joe?
What excuse will you give?

reply from: joe

How do you judge that I hate everyone else? Churchmouse you seem to love Christ but your doctrine does not make sense.
You claim to love everyone, should we not hold people accountable for crimes? Do you think we should have prisons? Should we imprison murderers and rapists? We still can show the love of Christ in prison but we must hate the sin and make it socially unacceptable.
Do we release all unrepentant murderers? Yes or no? How is it Christian to love and set free women that are killing their innocent children?
I really want to understand how mainstream Christianity justifies this double standard.

reply from: churchmouse

Your posts show it. They show anger and hostility towardss those that do not believe as you do. But no more hateful than agaisnt the post abortive woman. And again its not my doctrine, its Gods.

So we get this cleared up.
Is abortion legal or illegal in the United States?
The abortion I got was sin in Gods eyes but it was legal by the laws in this country. So of course the woman that get them, the abortionists are not imprisoned.
Whose laws should I live by?
I live by Gods laws, I do what He commands me to do. And since I have been saved, I am living by Gods laws.
Have you ever sinned agaisnt God?
What should happen to you then?
Did God forgive you?
Should he forgive you and not anyone else?
It is obvious that for you some sins are forgiveable and some are not. THAT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL HOWEVER. GOD FORGIVES. He forgave the murderer on the cross.....he forgave Peter, Paul. And you say that I shouldn't be forgiven. You have no clue what scripture says Joe, none whatsoever. You don;t know it, you obviously don't live it.
What do you want to happen to me?
Do you want me dead? Imprisoned? What?
We live in a country where we are are required to follow the laws. God says we should follow the laws. A person can come to know Christ in prison. Look at the ministry of Chuck Coleson. He was the thief in the Watergate fiasco. He now has a huge prison ministry. He is doing what God commands. Trying to lead the lost to Christ. SO THAT CHRIST CAN SAVE THEM.
You think his work is ridiculous?
And please explain how if you are a walking talking Christian that lives the Christian Worldview daily, how you can justify hating those that sin. You are no different than any other sinner Joe. If you have broken one commandment you have broken them all.
No Christian would justify abortion. And if they do, they are NOT A CHRISTIAN. No pro-choicer is a Christian in my estimation. But I look beyond that to what Christ said, how He said to act, what He said to do.
I believe with all my heart that what I am doing is in line with scripture.
You quote this verse as your signature Joe.
""Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extend that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' Matthew 25:45
Do you even know what this means?
The focus of this scripture is that we should love every person and serve everyone we can. Such love as great as this, GLORIFIES GOD by reflecting our love for Him.
We should love and serve even the lost, the unsaved. This is Gods commandment. It is not a suggestion, it is a commandment, one we all should take seriously.
Take your hatred and turn it into something that glorifies God.

reply from: joe

You corrupt the Teachings of our Christ. The murderous woman is not the "least of these", the innocent child is. If the woman guilty of killing their innocent children would be in prison, or is broken from repentance, then she would become the "least of these". When they walk free from spilling innocent blood, they are not the oppressed.
You ignore my points proving the mainstream "Christian" view is corrupt and with no defense of its double standard.
Is it Christian to imprison criminals? Your hate for the unborn child does not glorify God but exposes your hypocrisy. Gods law condemns the spilling of innocent blood, so do you advocate changing mans law to align with that? Do you advocate prison for the unrepentant mothers? Or do you really just care for the murderer?
The hypocrisy is obvious, your view shows no love for the victim. How can we win when the pro-life advocate is the enemy to the unborn?

reply from: joe

I wish you no harm. But until the day happens when the post-abortive women equate the unborn life to born life, I consider the ministry useless for the defense of the unborn. If you and Carole are an example of the effect of this ministry, it is detrimental.
Equate the unborn life to born life, no excuses.

reply from: churchmouse

No I do not. You do not know Christ or you would not say this. You ignore all the scriptures I gave where Christ forgave. Why? Satan has a stronghold on you joe, I wish you could see that. Your view is the corrupt one.
I love the unborn child, but I love Christ more. I do what and how He tells me to act. You on the other hand do not. You mock His Word and His intentions. Yes God does not want innocent blood spilled. God does not want anyone to sin.
HAVE YOU SINNED JOE? HAVE YOU EVER SINNED? In Gods eyes you are unrighteous.
I advocate changing laws, but I do NOT ADVOCATE DOING IT THE WAY HILL DID LIKE YOU DO.
I asked you before.......if you think Hills actions were so godly........THEN WHY DONT YOU DO WHAT HE DID? IF GOD CONDONED WHAT HILL DID, THEN WHY DONT YOU DO IT FOR THE CAUSE?
Abortion is legal in the United States and I beleive we shoudl abide by the laws of the land. If abortion was illegal then anyone that killed an unborn should be in prison. But God says follow the laws. Give to Caesars........
And by Gods laws, you should be in prison to, if you have not repented. Do you think you deserve to be in prison for your sins? Have you made sure you repented for every time you sinned? There is no possible way you could do that.
I love even you joe, my enemy here. I love you like Christ commands. I beleive you are lost and not saved by all you have posted here. You do not seem to know or stand on scripture.
AND YOU NEVER ANSWERED MY QUESTION JOE.WHAT DO YOU DO BESIDES BASH, FOR THE CAUSE. WHAT DO YOU DO FOR THE UNBORN IN THE WOMB.
The hypocrisy is obvious, your view shows no love for the victim. How can we win when the pro-life advocate is the enemy to the unborn?

reply from: churchmouse

JOE SAID,
You seek vengance. You do not show love like Christ commands.
You are simply lost.

reply from: joe

Your statement above does show love for the unborn. That is all that I ask, to protect the unborn life by changing the current law. To grant personhood to the fullest extent of the word.
Churchmouse I do not hate the sinner, I just want the laws to protect the victim. I do not judge you, I do not hate you, I am also a sinner. It is only by the grace of God that we are saved, that we both agree on.

reply from: joe

We are in agreement here. I do not advocate doing what Hill did but I cannot condemn a man who defended God given life.

reply from: churchmouse

Right To Life organizations work to change laws. You need to research this, because it is obvious that you are not up to date on who the leaders in this field is and what they are working on.
We not only work to educate women we also are in the faces of our state reps, senators and our Governor. Out Governor happens to be Janet Napolitano. She came to the Roe PP celebration in January. We were in her face, signs......etc. she is evil.
We email, we phone call........we picket the capital, we march......you name it we are there. and we carry graphic signs. During the super bowl that was out here.......we hired trucks with graphic pictures on them to drive around the arena. Planes flew overhead with banners.
I want laws to protect the victim as well and do all I can to make this happen. I am only a small little speck in this whole thing.......but I am passionate about what we do.
We agree about Christ, good.
But joe you have to take what Christ said about forgivenss into consideration. Unforgiveness is not good and it separates us from God. Hey I know what i did, you do not have to remind me. But I repented and ask the Lords forgiveness and it was not just lip service, I have changed on the inside. As Christians we all have gifts that we want to share with people, hopefully they will produce fruits.........and I believe mine is to share my experience with those deep in sin, that have not repented, that are nevertheless suffering because they know what they have done.
I wish we could agree on everything, but if we agree on what Christ said to do, that would be a big first step.

reply from: joe

Thank you for your hard work. If we both advocate the protection of the innocent and personhood for the unborn, then we stand on the same side.
As long as the innocent child is not forgotten, then reaching out to the lost is a requirement of every Christian, I agree. I believe in repentance, I believe in forgiveness but when I hear people not equating the unborn life to born life...I question the motives. It is my love for the unborn that fuels my passion to protect them. They do represent the most innocent and pure among us.

reply from: Faramir

How many diapers does a baby use in the first three months?

reply from: carolemarie

Somewhere around 60+ a week. Babies use alot of diapers.

reply from: churchmouse

Hey if everyone is tryin to live GREEN.............then mothers should start using cloth diapers.........that or recycle the paper ones. Yuck. LOL

reply from: Faramir

I'm doing a diaper buying mission at midnight at Wal-Mart. I'm sure that will be late enough so nobody I know will see me with a cartload of diapers.
But I scoped the diaper aisle out today and there are so many choices! Everyone is telling me that brand doesn't matter, but isn't there a brand that's the best or the best deal?

reply from: sander

Pampers have been around a long time and I've never heard anyone complain about that brand. Personally, I think it's all in getting the right size for the baby and knowing how to put the diaper on. lol
But, you don't have to worry about those things.
Have you thought of wearing a disguise?

reply from: Faramir

I wonder if they are making diapers differently today than 18 years ago. They seem much more compact. I don't remember buying packages of diapers that were so small, but so heavy and with so many diapers.
At any rate, I bought about $70 worth last night at Wal-Mart, consisting of about five different packages in different brands and sizes.
I delivered them today, and they were very pleased with the donation.
I expect to continue making the purchase of items for this center as part of our regular shopping list. I think they might need cribs and other items, and my next project might be to put aside a fund for something larger and purchase it and deliver it. I COULD just send them money, and I know they would spend it well, but for now, buying the actual items and delivering them makes me so much more aware of the the actuality that real people with real needs are involved. Plus, I am more likely to remember to buy the item than I am to send the money.
I realize that this is just a tiny contribution, and there is so much more I could have done in my life to help others in need, but didn't, but at least I see the light now and am acting on it, and doing something, even if small, can be a tremendous help to others, not to mention a much needed course change in my own life, that has been too focused on me and my own problems. I'm not tooting my own horn in this case. I'm just making a "testimony" about a good change for the better.
And it never would have occurred to me to do this had Sander not suggested it.
And I would not have had the opportunity to discuss it with her, had we not started to become a little more cordial with each other.
Somewhere there is a moral to this story. I think it is that we can tend to look at the worst in others, and that only brings out the worst in them and in ourselves. When we deal with the best in others, when we give them some space, and make allowances for their flaws, we encourage their best and we encourage the best in ourselves as well.
A very good chain reaction started when concernedparent admitted that he had been a hypocrite, and that he was using the same tactics for which he was criticizing others. And I thought about that, and was at first disappointed, because I could see that this was going to spoil all the "fun" I was having. I had to face that fact that I was guilty too.
I've made a decision that my behavior on this board is going to change and I'm no longer going to spoil for the fight, or try to "get" anyone. That does not accomplish anything.
Because somehow sander and I came to some kind of agreement, something good happened. Besides the fact that I think we now have a better understanding of each other, and have made a "peace treaty," there are now several hundred diapers at the crisis pregnancy center in my town that would not be there if sander had not reached out in friendship.
And as Marths Stewart would say, "That's a good thing."
Shalom!

reply from: galen

cool for you faramir...ans sander et al.

reply from: sander

I can't tell you how excited I am for the babies, their mothers and you too, Faramir!
I'm letting off virtual fire works in celebration!
And it was a lovely post and tribute to "peace makers" everywhere!

reply from: galen

for a maternity home?

reply from: sheri

Faramir, that is so great! we had a diaper drive at our church last month and Father put the first package on the collection site right on the alter he said "you should have seen the look the cashier gave me.'
I know what you mean about CP's humility making you think, same thing happened with me, they say humility is the seat of wisdom.

reply from: Faramir

I wish I could have seen a priest buying diapers. That's funny.
Yeah, I know all about CP's humility. He gave me all the details about it in a lengthy PM.

reply from: faithman

Your posts show it. They show anger and hostility towardss those that do not believe as you do. But no more hateful than agaisnt the post abortive woman. And again its not my doctrine, its Gods.

So we get this cleared up.
Is abortion legal or illegal in the United States?
The abortion I got was sin in Gods eyes but it was legal by the laws in this country. So of course the woman that get them, the abortionists are not imprisoned.
Whose laws should I live by?
I live by Gods laws, I do what He commands me to do. And since I have been saved, I am living by Gods laws.
Have you ever sinned agaisnt God?
What should happen to you then?
Did God forgive you?
Should he forgive you and not anyone else?
It is obvious that for you some sins are forgiveable and some are not. THAT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL HOWEVER. GOD FORGIVES. He forgave the murderer on the cross.....he forgave Peter, Paul. And you say that I shouldn't be forgiven. You have no clue what scripture says Joe, none whatsoever. You don;t know it, you obviously don't live it.
What do you want to happen to me?
Do you want me dead? Imprisoned? What?
We live in a country where we are are required to follow the laws. God says we should follow the laws. A person can come to know Christ in prison. Look at the ministry of Chuck Coleson. He was the thief in the Watergate fiasco. He now has a huge prison ministry. He is doing what God commands. Trying to lead the lost to Christ. SO THAT CHRIST CAN SAVE THEM.
You think his work is ridiculous?
And please explain how if you are a walking talking Christian that lives the Christian Worldview daily, how you can justify hating those that sin. You are no different than any other sinner Joe. If you have broken one commandment you have broken them all.
No Christian would justify abortion. And if they do, they are NOT A CHRISTIAN. No pro-choicer is a Christian in my estimation. But I look beyond that to what Christ said, how He said to act, what He said to do.
I believe with all my heart that what I am doing is in line with scripture.
You quote this verse as your signature Joe.
""Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extend that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' Matthew 25:45
Do you even know what this means?
The focus of this scripture is that we should love every person and serve everyone we can. Such love as great as this, GLORIFIES GOD by reflecting our love for Him.
We should love and serve even the lost, the unsaved. This is Gods commandment. It is not a suggestion, it is a commandment, one we all should take seriously.
Take your hatred and turn it into something that glorifies God.
This post is SSSSSSOOOOOOO full of false doctrine, where should we start? No where in scripture does it say we should give evil doers a free walk. Romans 13 is very clear that government is to be a terror to evil doers, including evil doers who claim faith. The scripture also states very clear that God hates the evil doer just as much as the evil they do. The only ones who enjoy the love of God, are those who surrender to Christ as Lord. We can love on the baby killers after we stop them from killing babies. It is this stupidity, and false doctrine that has done more to keep abortion legal, and has under mined and perverted pro-life, than all the PR of Planned Parenthood. the scripture also comands us to establish justice. Your false doctrine would have us throw all prison doors open, and allow killers to walk free and harm innocent people. Your double standard proves just how foolish you are. SSSSSSSSSOOOOOOO are you going to advocate all killers get a free walk? If you do not, you are a hypocrit. You can "hate" ted bundy, but lavish "love" all over those who heartlessly killed their own child. Justice is not hate. It is a call for those who have harmed innocents to meat their just reward for the evil they have done. That includes those who claim faith in Christ. Your presintation of the "gospel" is out of ballance. But those who have murdered their own child have a tendancy to excuse the evil they did to their own womb child with false religion. SSSSSOOOOOO just because you killed your own child gives you the right to talk down to others? You hide your hate behind your false words of love. Your self righteous arogants is classic of those who try to cover up their evil by putting others on the defensive. You are a baby killer, and subverter of the cause of the womb child, and a perverted of scripture to condemn those you falsly accuse of being haters. To advocate justice for those who slaughter womb life is not hate at all. It is a proper responce to one of the most evil brutal acts on the planet. But it is understandable for those who have done the deed try to excuse themselves from what they know they deserve. Those who have killed their own children have lost the right to talk down to others who stand to save, not kill, womb life. You are the real hater. You hated a child enough to kill em, and you hate those who truely stand for womb life, by perverting christian doctrine, excuse your crime of baby killing, and falsely accues others of the hate you lavished on a womb child. You want to see a hater, get a mirror.

reply from: Faramir

So what is the person who has committed a LEGAL sin supposed to do? Make some kind of prison for themselves and lock themselves up? Have someone execute them? What civil justice do you propose for a LEGAL sin? Abortion isn't illegal yet, but you keep ranting about justice as if those who have had legal abortions must submit to some kind of civil justice. If so, what should it be? What do they need to do beyond being sorry? Many of them are already serving "community service" terms by doing much volunteer prolife work.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree when you attack those who are actually SAVING BABIES RIGHT NOW.

reply from: churchmouse

Why didn't Jesus let the crowd stone the prostitute? Why didn't He go around and load up those breaking the law and help put them in prison? Why didn't Christ while on the cross condemn the men hanging with Him?
I look to the character of God for answers. GOD ALWAYS EXHIBITS LOVE. This is a quality that God has and it is important because of its encompassing impact it has on us. John wrote about the revealed heart of God. God is love and He showed His love for us from the very beginning of human existence. But the defining act of love was Christ. He was sacrificed for our sins. What greater love can one have than to lay down his life for those who do not deserve such a sacrifice? He did this for all sinners. Why? Love or hate? Would you do what He commands here Faithman?
We experience Gods love in many ways and forgiveness is one of them. As scriptures show He has unmerited and unrestrained affection for us and His love is shown through acts of....caring, protection. He knows our needs and He looks out for our best interests...His is not a selfish love because He provides us forgiveness and acceptance....through grace and mercy, both of which we desperately need. God is always right and does what is right. His love might not be what we had in mind for our lives because it can come in the form of punishment and discipline.
He allowed me to experience the pain in my life concerning the abortion I had because He wanted to teach me, He wanted me to seek Him out. He loved me.
I do not believe that God only loves believers. He would not have sent his Son in the first place if that were the case. If you say He doesn't......you limit, his power, you put limits on the grace He shows.
Christ said in Matthew 6:14-15. 14"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Bottom line He wants us to forgive.
Mark 11:25 ......Christ says, 25 "And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
He wants us to forgive. Prayer presumes a relationship with God as a person. If we have sinned against Him and grieved the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) and the sin has not been forgiven, it interrupts our relationship with God. (Eph 59:1-2) Until sin is forgiven and the relationship is restored , prayer will be difficult. If we have unforgivenss against anyone in our heart, then we are not acting in a way that is pleasing to God or even helpful to ourselves.
God declared in Matt 6:12 -15, "12 "Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.[a]' 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
God sent Christ to save everyone because He loves His creation. He might pour out His wrath in different ways, but that does not mean He hates certain people.
Justification comes to those who come to Him in faith. But that does not mean He hates the unbeliever. Look at what He did in the lives of the apostles......Paul, Peter. Were they always believers. God handpicked these men, and when He handpicked them.......they were lost. Paul killed Christians.
And what if you were late in stopping them? What about the person that has gone through with the abortion? If God hates these women, then why did He gives us scripture that says, forgive and show love?
God will judge with righteous judgment ever sinner that has ever lived. He will even hold you accountable for your sins. You have sinned haven't you? Did He forgive you? Have you ever wronged someone? Did they forgive you?
We are to love. It is unfortunate that you do not do this. You will have to answer to God.
I call sin sin and I do not forget the unborn child in the womb. I called what I did murder and make no excuses for my actions. But God forgave me. Maybe you could pray on this scripture it might give you comfort and convict you as you read it.
1 Peter 5:5 Peter said, "5
" God resists the proud,"
But gives grace to the humble."
I get a sense that you use Gods Word simply to win arguments or to put down Christians. It is easy to adopt an attitude of pride and superiority. I will tell you this.......I am not a biblical scholar. This for me shouldn't be a contest to see who knows more scripture. I do know this.......God forgave me. He changed my life. He changed it so......I have made the unborn my focus, my ministry. I just do not damn people like you do. I give them hope, that Jesus too can save them. I do it in love. You think it should be done with hate. You do not make me insignificant in the Lords work the way I see it.
James 1:19-20 says, " 19 My dear brothers and sisters, pay attention to what I say. Everyone should be quick to listen. But they should be slow to speak. They should be slow to get angry. 20 A man's anger doesn't produce the kind of life God wants."
I could scream and get vocal, and angry, I could swear and call women names.......But would my anger glorify God? Would it produce the kind of life God wants for me?
James 3 :17-18 says, "17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is pure. That's the most important thing about it. And that's not all. It also loves peace. It thinks about others. It obeys. It is full of mercy and good fruit. It is fair. It doesn't pretend to be what it is not.
18 Those who make peace should plant peace like a seed. If they do, it will produce a crop of right living."
I do not choose to ignore the sins that others commit, especially the woman that has killed her unborn. I just choose to think like Christ did and do it the way I believe He showed it should be done in scriptures. This is hard at times......but whoever said the Christian walk was easy?
I pray that your heart be restored in Christ that unforgiveness does not keep you chained up. You show such extreme hatred. And this will separate you from Him. You do not glorify God with your hateful words.
David prayed this prayer, it might help you too.
"Have mercy on me, O God....blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
I know my transgressions...Against you....have I sinned." Psalm 51:1-4
We are all sinners, even you. The Bible tells us that "There are none righteous, not even one." What this means is that we all fall short of Gods expectations. That is why Christ came. The sad thing here is that you are trying to play God by judging others hearts. You fail to see that you are in the same boat as everyone else is. God considers this sin. God will be the judge, you will not.
I feel so sorry for you that your hate is all consuming. Whatever good intentions you have, and I believe you do love the unborn, you do not glorify God, by the way you act. You do not obviously take the Great Commission seriously, or you would not act like you do.

reply from: Faramir

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but to repeatedly call postabortive women--especially those who regret their abortions and are working to stop abortion--is cruel and beyond being abusive. I don't see why it is tolerated here.

reply from: joe

21"(A)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"(B)Many will say to Me on (C)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (D)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Is this the Jesus you claim loves everyone unconditionally even the unrepentant mothers? Our God is a God of Love and Justice.
There is no greater hate than spilling innocent blood, there is no greater lawlessness. Without life all other commandments do not apply.

reply from: nancyu

Show me the Law which states that an unborn child isn't a person
Show me the law which states that it is legal to murder persons.
Has anyone seen this commandment? "Thou shalt not hate the evildoer"
(I must have missed that one.)

reply from: joe

The mother or the unborn child? The killer or the victim?

reply from: joe

I am sure you will be first in line.

reply from: nancyu

There is no such commandment.

reply from: faithman

Why didn't Jesus let the crowd stone the prostitute? Why didn't He go around and load up those breaking the law and help put them in prison? Why didn't Christ while on the cross condemn the men hanging with Him?
I look to the character of God for answers. GOD ALWAYS EXHIBITS LOVE. This is a quality that God has and it is important because of its encompassing impact it has on us. John wrote about the revealed heart of God. God is love and He showed His love for us from the very beginning of human existence. But the defining act of love was Christ. He was sacrificed for our sins. What greater love can one have than to lay down his life for those who do not deserve such a sacrifice? He did this for all sinners. Why? Love or hate? Would you do what He commands here Faithman?
We experience Gods love in many ways and forgiveness is one of them. As scriptures show He has unmerited and unrestrained affection for us and His love is shown through acts of....caring, protection. He knows our needs and He looks out for our best interests...His is not a selfish love because He provides us forgiveness and acceptance....through grace and mercy, both of which we desperately need. God is always right and does what is right. His love might not be what we had in mind for our lives because it can come in the form of punishment and discipline.
He allowed me to experience the pain in my life concerning the abortion I had because He wanted to teach me, He wanted me to seek Him out. He loved me.
I do not believe that God only loves believers. He would not have sent his Son in the first place if that were the case. If you say He doesn't......you limit, his power, you put limits on the grace He shows.
Christ said in Matthew 6:14-15. 14"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Bottom line He wants us to forgive.
Mark 11:25 ......Christ says, 25 "And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
He wants us to forgive. Prayer presumes a relationship with God as a person. If we have sinned against Him and grieved the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) and the sin has not been forgiven, it interrupts our relationship with God. (Eph 59:1-2) Until sin is forgiven and the relationship is restored , prayer will be difficult. If we have unforgivenss against anyone in our heart, then we are not acting in a way that is pleasing to God or even helpful to ourselves.
God declared in Matt 6:12 -15, "12 "Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.[a]' 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
God sent Christ to save everyone because He loves His creation. He might pour out His wrath in different ways, but that does not mean He hates certain people.
Justification comes to those who come to Him in faith. But that does not mean He hates the unbeliever. Look at what He did in the lives of the apostles......Paul, Peter. Were they always believers. God handpicked these men, and when He handpicked them.......they were lost. Paul killed Christians.
And what if you were late in stopping them? What about the person that has gone through with the abortion? If God hates these women, then why did He gives us scripture that says, forgive and show love?
God will judge with righteous judgment ever sinner that has ever lived. He will even hold you accountable for your sins. You have sinned haven't you? Did He forgive you? Have you ever wronged someone? Did they forgive you?
We are to love. It is unfortunate that you do not do this. You will have to answer to God.
I call sin sin and I do not forget the unborn child in the womb. I called what I did murder and make no excuses for my actions. But God forgave me. Maybe you could pray on this scripture it might give you comfort and convict you as you read it.
1 Peter 5:5 Peter said, "5
" God resists the proud,"
But gives grace to the humble."
I get a sense that you use Gods Word simply to win arguments or to put down Christians. It is easy to adopt an attitude of pride and superiority. I will tell you this.......I am not a biblical scholar. This for me shouldn't be a contest to see who knows more scripture. I do know this.......God forgave me. He changed my life. He changed it so......I have made the unborn my focus, my ministry. I just do not damn people like you do. I give them hope, that Jesus too can save them. I do it in love. You think it should be done with hate. You do not make me insignificant in the Lords work the way I see it.
James 1:19-20 says, " 19 My dear brothers and sisters, pay attention to what I say. Everyone should be quick to listen. But they should be slow to speak. They should be slow to get angry. 20 A man's anger doesn't produce the kind of life God wants."
I could scream and get vocal, and angry, I could swear and call women names.......But would my anger glorify God? Would it produce the kind of life God wants for me?
James 3 :17-18 says, "17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is pure. That's the most important thing about it. And that's not all. It also loves peace. It thinks about others. It obeys. It is full of mercy and good fruit. It is fair. It doesn't pretend to be what it is not.
18 Those who make peace should plant peace like a seed. If they do, it will produce a crop of right living."
I do not choose to ignore the sins that others commit, especially the woman that has killed her unborn. I just choose to think like Christ did and do it the way I believe He showed it should be done in scriptures. This is hard at times......but whoever said the Christian walk was easy?
I pray that your heart be restored in Christ that unforgiveness does not keep you chained up. You show such extreme hatred. And this will separate you from Him. You do not glorify God with your hateful words.
David prayed this prayer, it might help you too.
"Have mercy on me, O God....blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
I know my transgressions...Against you....have I sinned." Psalm 51:1-4
We are all sinners, even you. The Bible tells us that "There are none righteous, not even one." What this means is that we all fall short of Gods expectations. That is why Christ came. The sad thing here is that you are trying to play God by judging others hearts. You fail to see that you are in the same boat as everyone else is. God considers this sin. God will be the judge, you will not.
I feel so sorry for you that your hate is all consuming. Whatever good intentions you have, and I believe you do love the unborn, you do not glorify God, by the way you act. You do not obviously take the Great Commission seriously, or you would not act like you do.
You are the hater. You hate sound doctrine, and pervert it, you hate the real Jesus of the Bible and recreate Him in your own image of your opinion, and you hate me by spreading false acusations. I am very much involved in the great commission of the true gopel. Not the gobble dee goop you have contrived. There is SSSSOOOOO much error in your post I just don't have time to waist on it. You are deluded, scripturally unsound, and a waist of time to respond to. But it is the deluded such as yourself that has done more to keep abortion on demand legal than anything else.

reply from: churchmouse

I hate no one I love you in Christ. I feel terribly sorry for you. You do not display Christian love in the least.
I gave you scriptures that hopefully will convict you. How did I pervert scripture? Anyone can read for themselves to see that I did not change them. I am not spreading false things about you either. People can tell by your posts, who you are and how you act. ....and clearly they can see what you are not.

reply from: Faramir

I hate no one I love you in Christ. I feel terribly sorry for you. You do not display Christian love in the least.
I gave you scriptures that hopefully will convict you. How did I pervert scripture? Anyone can read for themselves to see that I did not change them. I am not spreading false things about you either. People can tell by your posts, who you are and how you act. ....and clearly they can see what you are not.
You might as well try to reason with a brick wall. He doens't get it.
He's entitled to express his opinions, but I don't see why his abusive behavior towards other prolifers is tolerated here. It's counterproductive.

reply from: nancyu

I hate no one I love you in Christ. I feel terribly sorry for you. You do not display Christian love in the least.
I gave you scriptures that hopefully will convict you. How did I pervert scripture? Anyone can read for themselves to see that I did not change them. I am not spreading false things about you either. People can tell by your posts, who you are and how you act. ....and clearly they can see what you are not.
I read for myself and see that faithman is right and you are wrong. You are using scripture to twist the truth. It doesn't mean the scripture is untrue. You are just applying it in a way that is dishonest.

reply from: nancyu

^^LIE^^
^^LIE^^
Trying to incite a little violence here, churchmouse?
^^NOT THE TRUTH^^
^^The opposite of the truth ^^^ (What did God's Commandments say about bearing false witness?? hmm??)
^^LIE^^ The opposite of the truth ^^^
(BY THE WAY CHURCHMOUSE ; JUST BECAUSE ABORTION IS "LEGAL" (SO TO SPEAK) DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE OBLIGATED TO DO IT. JUST A LITTLE FYI THERE.)
^^^INSANITY ?? ^^^^ (Yeah, I'd go with that defense if I were you.)
Sure you do. You love us all don't you churchmouse. But sometimes that love just feels a little bit more like hate, doesn't it?
If Joe did nothing, he would be helping more than you are at the moment.


^^^^assuming you are peering in a mirror as you state this ^^^^ then it is:
The Truth!!! finally!! (I knew you had it in you CM2.)

reply from: Faramir

Maybe it's just me, but if either faithman or nancyu have a good prolife message anywhere in their posts, I can't see it. I see hate, anger, and unreasonableness. I can't see past that. I can't see that they could in any way be a positive prolife force. If I didn't know anything about the prolife movement and happened upon this site and only their posts, I'd run away from the prolife movement. I'm not putting them on ignore, but I'm pretty much going to disregard anything they say from now on and not respond to it. I think it's sad that we don't have moderators to keep posters from being so outrageous and abusive, because people like them make the prolife movement look bad, and obscure the compassion and reason that underlies it.

reply from: nancyu

^^LIE^^
^^LIE^^
Trying to incite a little violence here, churchmouse?
^^NOT THE TRUTH^^
^^The opposite of the truth ^^^ (What did God's Commandments say about bearing false witness?? hmm??)
^^LIE^^ The opposite of the truth ^^^
(BY THE WAY CHURCHMOUSE ; JUST BECAUSE ABORTION IS "LEGAL" (SO TO SPEAK) DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE OBLIGATED TO DO IT. JUST A LITTLE FYI THERE.)
^^^INSANITY ?? ^^^^ (Yeah, I'd go with that defense if I were you.)
Sure you do. You love us all don't you churchmouse. But sometimes that love just feels a little bit more like hate, doesn't it?
If Joe did nothing, he would be helping more than you are at the moment.


^^^^assuming you are peering in a mirror as you state this ^^^^ then it is:
The Truth!!! finally!! (I knew you had it in you CM2.)

reply from: carolemarie

I get sick of both of them, and found that ignore button makes life great.
It doesn't matter what either of them think, they are in the very very tiny hateful minority that has latched on to the prolife movement. They would fit in well with Fred Phelps and his gang of haters.
I find it amazing that the moderators don't clamp down on this kind of slavering hate. It reflects badly on Life Dynamics, this is their site....hopefully they don't agree with the vicious attacks on other prolifers....

reply from: nancyu

So can Fboy and Joe, but that doesn't stop you from voicing your opinions, does it? Do you object to my doing so on Juju's behalf?
Perhaps we should not be so quick to "feed the fires" and get into each others battles in a personal way. I'm willing to do my best to do my part. I'm trying real hard to not let our little disagreements become personal and help keep the squabbling going. It really is getting out of hand, and if it can't be stopped, I'll feel better if I am making a sincere effort not to be part of the problem. What do you say? Can we get together on this? We shouldn't feel compelled to take sides against each other, should we? Aren't we all on the same side? I, for one, am really going to try to "pick my battles" and not belabor these side issues that compromise our unity. We all have a right to voice our opinions, but I'm going to try to just have my say and let it go at that, rather than playing "last word" as if repeating my arguments lend them more validity. There comes a point where we must understand that we aren't going to convince everyone to see everything our way and just let it go...
I'm just glad so many of you agree with me that abortion on demand is wrong, and has to stop. That's what's really important here, and my time is better spent trying to get others on board with this simple concept than going in circles about related issues. It's just too frustrating, and probably not really worth the effort, especially when the frustration leads to rude remarks and personal attacks. I'm as guilty as anyone, I know, but can we agree we should all make an effort to exercise more diplomacy and self control? I know I would be more effective with some improvements in this area. How about you?
I might have bought this little speech about kindness if it had come after churchmouse's lying posts instead of after mine.

reply from: nancyu

Ghosts by Jake Owen
Composers: Chuck Jones, Jake Owen, Jimmy Ritchey and Jonathan Yudkin
He said he had to stop he hadn't had a drop of anything
stronger than coffee in 10 months three weeks an one long day.
He pushed away his plate and said "its better late than never done
When it comes to getting right.
It took a while but I saw the light."
He said, "some things, they cast long shadows
that I never will outrun
and every day I spend living
with ghosts of all the things that I've done wrong .
Grab a chair cause the list is long
I can write you a country song
about the reasons I'll be going home
to a house full of memories
Of things I wish I'd done differently
And when I'm feeling weak they keep me strong
Ghosts of all the things that I've done wrong."
He said "there's a spot of paint
and it just ain't
the right shade,
but it covers up the hole I made
where I broke my wrist the night she left.
And there's a lot of friends
that I ain't seen in a lot of years
and some still hanging around
in old pictures I cant take down
He said , "some things they cast long shadows
that I never will outrun
and every day I do battle
with ghosts of all the things that I've done wrong
Grab a chair 'cause the list is long
I can write you a country song
about the reasons I'll be going home
to a house full of memories
Of things I wish I'd done differently
And when I'm feeling weak they keep me strong
Ghosts of all the things that I've done wrong."
I got a heart full of memories
Of things I wish I'd done differently
And when I'm feeling weak they keep me strong
Ghosts of all the things that I've done wrong.
He said he had to stop he hadn't had a drop of anything
stronger than coffee in 10 months three weeks an one long day

reply from: nancyu

I am tired of being called a "hater" for defending babies. This is something pro aborts do carole. How can you expect me to see you as fully pro life, when you so loudly speak in pro abort language?

reply from: faithman

I get sick of both of them, and found that ignore button makes life great.
It doesn't matter what either of them think, they are in the very very tiny hateful minority that has latched on to the prolife movement. They would fit in well with Fred Phelps and his gang of haters.
I find it amazing that the moderators don't clamp down on this kind of slavering hate. It reflects badly on Life Dynamics, this is their site....hopefully they don't agree with the vicious attacks on other prolifers....
And we get sick of your baby killing behind pretending to be pro-life. You use pro-death lingo in almost every post, you accuse people of hate when you are the one who hated 3 to death with abortiion. I my experiance I am not the minority. I have not latched on to "pro-life". I am pro-personhood. Their are too many death ***** pretenders like you in so called pro-life. what reflects badly on LDI is allowing baby killers like you to come here and pretend to be pro-life, while talking down to others from the position of killing three womb children. You are not pro-life, so no pro-lifer has been "viciuosly attacked". The problem is not post abortion which you try to hide behind to play the victim. The problem is that you agree with Planned Parenthood that the womb child is a second class being and does not deserve the same protection as the born child. The problem is your insistance in using pro-abort rhetoric on a very regular basis. The problem is that you have taken up the pro-death mantra of accusing true pro-lifers with being haters. the one thing you seem to not get thru your baby killing thick scull, is that you are the murdering hater. You slaughtered 3 with the hateful act of abortion. You hate the personhood movement because it exposes you as the baby killing hater that you are, and assures future baby hating killers get the justice you deserve. You may play "nice", but you are not. You are a pretentous phony who would assure the futher desturtion of the womb child so your sista killers get the same free walk you got. You are a killer and deserve to be in the cell next to Yates. You have nothing to offer but protection for abortionist, and excuses to killer moms. No matter how much you want to white wash it, that is not a pro-life position. That ain't nothing but an ole baby killing death scanc pretending to be pro-life.

reply from: 4given

Great! There is a need year round. For me, I enjoy the baby isle and have fun at babyGap when they discount everything. We have the bottle drive going from Mother's day to Father's day. I think many people actually don't know what to do, or that they can do anything. I am so pleased to see that you are commited to making a difference! You have the IAAP cards. Do you display them on your vehicle? That is another small way you can get the message out there.

reply from: Faramir

Thank you for you comments and encouragement, 4given.
I was looking through some Mother Teresa quotes earlier and one quote particularly struck me: "If you can't feed 100 people, then feed just one."
I tend to see the "big picture" and it overwhelms me. It never really occurred to me that I could do small things like this.
I'll continue purchasing baby items when we shop, and deliver them when we have an accumulation. And you're right--at least it applied to me--I didn't know about this place and their needs or that I could start helping them. But I suppose that's what this site is for. To inform each other about things we can do.

reply from: churchmouse

Well of course you think he is right. You never use scripture at all to make your points. You dont stand on it.
You also show hatred in most the posts you make. And you never, and I mean never answer a question. If I twist scripture then show me how I do this.
I asked you before.nancy and you continually do not answer it. I am not trying to incite violence here. That does not mean that I am not curious as to why you dont take matters into your own hands. You condone HIll, he is like an idol to you and......if you think Hills actions were so godly........THEN WHY DONT YOU DO WHAT HE DID? IF GOD CONDONED WHAT HILL DID, THEN WHY DONT YOU DO IT FOR THE CAUSE, or encourage others to do it as well?
You accuse and never back up your claim. I do not bear false witness agaisnt you. Anyone here on this board, can see you for what you really are. A hateful woman whose heart has become hardened before God. You simply do not understand the concept of sin.
I find it very funny that you condemn all women that have had abortions......and you let yourself off the hook. I never have been on birth control. I know I only killed one of my children. You on the other hand nancy, how many have you killed. You were on birth control.......so how many nancy.
And faithman how can you defend nancy, she murdered countlelss unborn children? She should be in prison, right?
Do try to spin that one.
I dont think so really. The majority of us are, but not these two. They have one agenda and that is hatred and vengeance. Nancy is obviously in denial over her abortions.......and she loves to point the fingur unfairly at carol and myself. And faithman is only here to point fingers never to really get in any discussion at all, certainly not about discussing Gods view about forgiveness.
This is not a side issue, it is a cental issue concerning God. It is a commandment that we love even our enemy. When a Christian is wrong and in error, another believer should point out the error so that they can get back on the path. These two are clearly, based on scripture, are in error. I gave scriptures and they wont address them. They cant address them, they know what they say. But they do it anyway. A Christian is required to stand on the Word and they pervert it.
They think they are righteous and are acting as such........the bible however says differently. I know that we will never see eye to eye on this....but I for one will not let the issue of forgivenss and what God says about it.......go. Not gonna happen. Someone has to stand up to them about scripture.
And they are the ones that twist my words. I am passionate for the unborn and I work in the field because I care. Neither one of these guys does anything for the unborn. NOTHING. They do nothing but show their fellow man hatred. I know a few people who have put both of them on ignore, but I wont do it. If I am a thorn......so be it. I am gonna stand on the Word. David stood on it when he faced Goliath and I am not going to let them get away with it that easy.

Abortion for any reason is wrong. I will say this again, it is premeditated murder. It has to stop.......but how do we go about stopping it? Do we do like faithman and nancy think we should do........just selectively kill people like Hill did? What should we do? Your heart is in the right place concernedparent, it truely is.
But I am a Christian first and my worldview is a Christian one you know that. I stand on scripture to make all my decisions. When I am in a situation the first thing I ask myself is.......What would Jesus do? How would He handle it? I do not always do it like He commands but I try. I wont ever deny saying something in a rude manner but I try to show love. I am not perfect.
Faithman and nancy, show hatred towards woman that have aborted their unborns. I dont know why nancy is so hateful because she has no idea how many unborns she killed by taking birth control.....she is blind to the real truth in her own life. They do NOT see the big picture. Yes the Bible says something about abortion and how God views life..........BUT IT ALSO SAYS something about sin, forgiveness and loving in Christs name. Love, be kind, patient........all of these are commandments.
It's not necessarily about their stance on abortion, its their Christian actions thats in question, at least in my mind. God has provided every person an escape exit to salvation, even the post abortive woman, even the abortionist. We should not be discouraged from waving the light of the gospel to people who fail to see what it says, especially Christians who are not living by it. If nancy, and faithman were not Christians, there wouldnt be that much I could say about this, because they would not be held accountable to the Word. But they claim to be Christian.
We need Christians to stand on the Word. We need pastors to stand up at the pulpit and not only talk about sin and its eternal consequences we need them to teach about forgiveness. Abortion is wrong, it is murder and we as a country should not tolerate it. God wont tolerate any sin, so abortion is not the only sin God cares about. Abortion unfortunately is legal in the US.
There are suffering people in this world. And to allow suffering when you are capable of preventing suffering is to be responsible for suffering. I aborted my unborn child. I know there are women who are suffering over their actions. The hope that God wants me to share is His love. To not only stand up for the unborn but to witness to the lost about Christ.
That is the big picture. That is the picture they dont get.
Max Lucado has this to say about love.......
"The same God who was mighty enough to carve out the canyon is tender enough to put hair on the legs of the Matterhorn Fly to keep it warm. The same force that provides symmetry to the planets guides the baby kangaroo to its mtoehr's pouch before the mother knows its born."
That shows Gods love. How do we reconcile Gods love with abortion, with other evils going on around the world? Do we show love, or hate? He forgave us......do we forgive others?
What does God say, nancy.......faithman?
Loving your enemy......what does he say about that one.

reply from: joe

Those who put them on ignore cannot handle the truth and it convicts them. You preach love and forgiveness over and over but you fail to apply the same doctrine to other criminals...exposing your hypocrisy. The same hypocrisy that no "Christian" can logically defend and you have also failed to defend it.
I see love for the unborn in both Nancy and Faithman...loving their neighbors. You have so much hate towards those who speak the truth, maybe you still have your own regrets to deal with first. Find peace with God, do not hold it against those who defend the innocent.
Do you love your enemy Chruchmouse? All I see is hate for those that stand with the unborn and advocate protection for the innocent. Until you realize that the unborn child is the same in Gods eyes as a newborn child, I fear your repentance has not purified you. God is forgiving but come to him in truth and humility, he cannot be fooled.

reply from: nancyu

churchmouse you are a liar. You constantly accuse joe, faithman myself and others of advocating violence against women. This is a baldfaced lie.
There is no commandment that says we MUST love those who do not keep His commandments. There is no commandment that says we must forgive those who murder children. There IS one against bearing false witness. To the best of my knowledge I have had NO abortions. If you truly care about abiding by God's Commandments you should stop saying that I have.
If you think our souls need saving, ask carole to send us one of those tea and chocolate gospels that you both are living by. Maybe then we will begin to see the light that you claim to be shining.

reply from: churchmouse

They can handle it believe you me. But God tells us not to be around those that continually mock His Word. Quite frankly that is happening here.
Let me ask you one thing.
1. What should happen to woman that abort their children?
2. What should happen to abortionists?
3. Abortion is legal in this country, what should be done?
We all know that God DOES NOT CONDONE ABORTION. But what do you not get? We live in a country that condones abortion. We live in a country that does not put God first, a country that is trying to live without God. What do you expect?
I AM ASKING YOUR PLAN. WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULD HAPPEN? You only see the unborn, you have no concern for the lost souls that do not know Christ. You could care less about the Great Commission t you it obviousy is a joke.
And as a Christian how should we treat sinners? YOU THINK ABORTION IS THE ONLY SIN THAT PEOPLE COMMIT? What should happen to you then when you sin? What, you think you are better than anyone else in the sin department?
What should happen to nancy, carol and myself?
Hey bud, I stand at abortion clinics. WHAT DO YOU DO? WHAT DO YOU DO FOR THIS CAUSE? You never will address this so I take it you do a big NOTHING. Nancy too......does nothing.
You think what Hill did was fine. Am I right? Do you condone what Hill did? yes or no.
Yes or no..........was Hill right or wrong?
If you say right, then you advocate violence period. If you think the abortionist should be killed, it only makes sense that you would think violence is the answer for the woman that chooses abortion.
And you can be part of that group my dear because you used birth control. A life starts at fertilization......so who knows how many you killed. Am I right? You do consider yourself in the post abortive group dont you nancy?
I am not a liar. The things we say here are pubic record.
nancy you do not know scripture.
Yes there is nancy. Here is an online bible study that you can do about love. It will teach you what God, Christ said about love and loving.
http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/onlinebiblestudies-irritationandangermanagement/loveyourenemy-lovingallyourenemies.asp

And love is important but like they say, the highest calling is to spread the gospel. And you cant spread the gospel if you have hate in your heart for ANYONE. This is scriptural. You would know that if you read and prayed on the scripture.
Why dont you show me scripture that says, hate your fellow man nancy? Hate those that do the same things you do, sin.
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another (John 13:35).
Do you show love for your enemy?
LOVE YOUR ENEMY, LOVE ONE ANOTHER. Do not let your emotions control you.
Jesus said, "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank that is in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye (Matthew 7:3-5)."
Try looking at your own sinfulness. You have aborted innocent children by taking birth control, and you point your finger at others that have had abortions.
http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/onlinebiblestudies-personalgrowthanddevelopment/changeyourselffirst-takethebeamoutofyourowneye.asp


You obviously need the Bible. And I am sure carol would send both of you ones. The Light, the Big Picture is God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit.
You need to pray on the scriptrues and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance.

reply from: nancyu

churchmouse you are a liar. You constantly accuse joe, faithman myself and others of advocating violence against women. This is a baldfaced lie.
There is no commandment that says we MUST love those who do not keep His commandments. There is no commandment that says we must forgive those who murder children. There IS one against bearing false witness. To the best of my knowledge I have had NO abortions. If you truly care about abiding by God's Commandments you should stop saying that I have.
If you think our souls need saving, ask carole to send us one of those tea and chocolate gospels that you both are living by. Maybe then we will begin to see the light that you claim to be shining.
If you would like to keep preaching to me, you should start practicing what you preach. Take the plank out of your own eye, then you can remove the speck from mine.

reply from: joe

There is no way you can logically defend this double standard, I sincerely hope you can open my eyes to why such a silent acceptance from Christianity exists.
The answer to question 1 & 2 is to let the punishment fit the crime. Those that kill should be charged with murder. Let the jury decide the punishment.
So, according to you, the government allows abortions so now we must love the killer but if it was illegal we would throw them into prison and treat them like other criminals. Do you serve God or man? Never mind. As a Christian we should treat all unrepentant murderers the same. How to you treat unrepentant murderers (you know, the illegal ones according to man)? Your forgiveness and love to unrepentant murderers is confusing women and makes this sin socially acceptable. Do you not understand shame?
Why to you personally attack me on this forum? It shows your weakness in defending your false doctrine. Not that I care, but it is annoying and will be ignored.

reply from: Faramir

Joe, she asked you what should be done RIGHT NOW.
Abortion is legal.
What charges and punishment do you expect for women who participate in LEGAL abortions?

reply from: joe

Treat them like any unrepentant murderer. Churches, families and friends should be true to God.
How was Judas treated by the disciples? What he did was legal.

reply from: churchmouse

joe of course you also consider nancy a murderer do you not?
Yes or no
Just for the record.
LOL

reply from: Faramir

Treat them like any unrepentant murderer. Churches, families and friends should be true to God.
How was Judas treated by the disciples? What he did was legal.
All of them, or just the unrepentant?
I don't think I understand your position.
Unfortunately abortion is legal, so there's no point in discussing any punishment. But are you suggesting that they need to be singled out somehow and given a hard time?
And what about those who are truly repentant. I understand you have some issues with carolemarie and churchmouse about some of their ideas, but I don't see how you could dispute their sorrow for their abortions. I think they've made that clear many times.

reply from: joe

Did she murder an unborn child? Yes or no.

reply from: joe

I cannot judge those that repent. I do not judge Carolemarie or Churchmouse for their abortions.
Those that repent, I cannot treat them like a murderer but actually accept them with love. Those that do not repent must be "singled out" and shamed, so those that contemplate this grave sin understand what is at stake. Make it socially unacceptable and proclaim the message clearly that it is human life, it is murder.

reply from: joe

Did she murder an unborn child? Yes or no.
If you cannot answer this, then she is innocent of this accusation.

reply from: Faramir

I cannot judge those that repent. I do not judge Carolemarie or Churchmouse for their abortions.
Those that repent, I cannot treat them like a murderer but actually accept them with love. Those that do not repent must be "singled out" and shamed, so those that contemplate this grave sin understand what is at stake. Make it socially unacceptable and proclaim the message clearly that it is human life, it is murder.
Thanks for clearing that up. Then whatever things you were saying to them that seemed harsh had to do with their ideas and not their own personal sins? Am I right about that?
We're at least 50% in agreement.
But what I'm wondering is if you don't see the principle that sometimes reaching out in love to even the unrepentant, can help them to become repentant.
It depends on the situation and the personalities involved, but confrontation can often result in stubbornness. Compassion can soften someone up and possibly lead them to doing some soul searching and eventual repentance.

reply from: churchmouse

I asked you. You I am sure knows she took birth control. And birth control to a true pro-lifer, can abort a living human being.
You tell me.
She took birth control.
You guys say that many pro-lifers do not recgonize the worth of the fetus and give it equal weight the same as a child that is born.
So I would think you would think that a child at fertilization has equal worth.
You tell us what she did, she certainly wont admit it. She hides and points her finger.

reply from: churchmouse

You certainly avoid answering questions. LOL
You answer by asking a question and trying to avoid the one asked to you.
So should we hate them or love them?
And COULD YOU GIVE ME SCRIPTURE TO BACK YOUR ANSWER UP WITH.
Didnt Jesus say, even love your enemy? did he not say, witness to the lost?
HOw do you think God would be glorified, by hating or loving?

reply from: joe

You are right, it is their ideas that I do not agree with, not their personal sins (due to repentance).
I see a problem in reaching out to the unrepentant with love in regards to abortion. In this particular sin, their is a victim that pays the ultimate price, their protection should be priority. When compassion is extended to the unrepentant, the message is mixed. Is it truly human life or not? I believe it is part of the "confusion" that many claim is part of this sin.
I am here to learn, to test all beliefs including my own...to seek the truth. To understand why for 35 years in this great Nation of compassionate individuals we are guilty of a crime so horrible, we hide it. It cannot be because of the pro-choice advocates, their rhetoric is so obvious and deceitful that it cannot stand any reasonable debate. If it is not due to the pro-choice advocates...how is this crime legal. What is the truth? Who is truly the enemy to the unborn?

reply from: joe

You misunderstand. We love our enemy but we do not give our life or the life of a innocent human being to them. Human or animal sacrifices are not acceptable.
Do you not believe that self-defense is allowed by Christian teachings?

reply from: joe

You tell us what she did, she certainly wont admit it. She hides and points her finger.
You avoid my question because you do not know, therefore she is innocent of your accusation.

reply from: carolemarie

You make abortion socially unacceptable by helping promote a culture where women and children are respected. Where women who place children for adoption are viewed as heros, not like they are looked at now.
Our society loves women who adopt...
but looks on those who place the child for adoption as less than normal moms. We think that only losers give up their child....it is so twisted...
If we start turning that around, we may actually see our culture turn prolife.

reply from: nancyu

Did she murder an unborn child? Yes or no.
If I may defend myself (even though it angers me to do it, that is not why I'm here.)
I used birth control in the past. I am not proud of the fact. Some people believe that some forms of birth control CAN be abortifacient. I don't know if it is true or not.
I saw no evidence that the birth control I used caused me to have any abortions. Did YOU churchmouse? To the best of my knowledge, I have had NO abortions. To the best of my knowledge I am not a murderer.
If you have evidence in your pocket to the contrary, let's see it. If not, and you care about keeping God's commandments; specifically the one about bearing false witness, you should now shut up about it.

reply from: churchmouse

Joe you run. You just will not answer questions and it is obvious why. I'll try again.
WHAT DO YOU DO FOR THIS CAUSE?
And as a Christian how should we treat sinners? YOU THINK ABORTION IS THE ONLY SIN THAT PEOPLE COMMIT? What should happen to you then when you sin? What, you think you are better than anyone else in the sin department?
nancy, you used birth control and you obviously are in denial. That is ok, I was for over 20 years. It might take time for you to accept what you did. God will forgive you if you repent. That is the beautiful thing. But if you do not repent, he will not forgive you.
You have no problem condemning others......however.
You must know deep down what you did or you would not have made this statement.
You obviously are not reading what the medical community, the pro-life community has to say about this. You think that because you didnt walk into a clinic, pay the money that you did not abort your unborn. Wrong. If birth control worked for you.......you aborted children. How many......who knows. I am not saying all this to be mean, these are facts.
Dr. Jerome LeJeune who is a world renowned geneticist had this to say as he argued before the trial court in Davis v Davis. This was a custody dispute over seven human embryos. He stated that, "The human embryo is in fact a human being, a real person."
"The Custody Dispute over Seven Human Embryos: The Testimony of Professor Jerome LeJeune, M.D., PhD., Christian Legal society, 4208 Evergreen Lane, Annandale, VA 22003-3264.
Some people obviously yourself included do not make a connection between birth control and abortion. You probably see them as two different acts. The fact is however that some birth control are abortifacients because they work by causing early term abortions. The IUD seems to prevent a fertilized egg a new human being from implanting in the uterine wall. The pill does not always stop ovulation, but sometimes prevents implantation of the growing embryo. And now we have the RU-486 pill that aborts a new fetus, a new baby.
Read this website.
http://www.jesus-passion.com/bcpill1.html#Medical_Journals_and_Textbooks_Medical_Journals_and_Textbooks_

Rancy Alcorn is an expert in this field. He also wrote, Pro-Life Answers to Pro-Choice ARguments.
You can see how many doctors endorse his research.
"No prolife physician can rightly prescribe BCPs after reviewing this data. I have started circulating this information."
Randall Martin, M.D., Chairman, Department of Anesthesiology, Columbia Willamette Valley Medical Center
"In this impeccably researched book, Randy Alcorn takes an unblinking look at what medical experts know about how birth control pills work. I painfully agree that birth control pills do in fact cause abortions. Our individual and collective Christian response to this heretofore varnished-over information will have profound consequences for time and eternity. This is a disturbing must-read for all who profess to be prolife."
Beverly A. McMillan, M.D., Ob/Gyn
Read this section.........
The Physician's Desk Reference (PDR)
It says, "Therefore any agent which serves to prevent implantation functions as an abortifacient.'
Look at what the various Pills manufacturers say.
Not many women read the fine print that comes with their birth control packet so they have no idea that what they are using causes abortion. The medical community however is covering this fact up and they dont want to talk about it.
and obviously some pro-lifers cant come to grips with the facts either.

I have never taken birth control nancy. I had an abortion at a clinic. But it doesnt matter where the abortion happens, its still the same thing. Women that are on birth control' abort and dont even know it. Do you know for a fact, 100% sure that you did not abort a human being when you took birth control?
Early on you wouldnt have seen evidence of this. You are trying to convince yourself that you did not. If that is how you cope then fine.
I am not bearing false witness nancy. Facts are facts read for yourself. I not only have Rancy Alcorns facts and research but I have hundreds of other sites, books, articles with information as well.
You said that you took birth control. I provided information, from the medical community, from the Pill manufacturers themselves, that say the Pill does cause abortion. If you took birth control.........then by taking it .................you tell me what you did.
You just can't bear to face it.
The important thing to remember is that God forgives and He will if you repent.

reply from: joe

Being kind does not work with you demons, does it Churchmouse. You claim to be a Christian? It is not enough to kill innocent life now you try to put guilt on other women. You claim repentance...liar. You still feel guilt, misery does love company, you need more don't you.
Hypocrite and a liar. Churchmouse you are a false Christian leading others to Hell. You claim to love Jesus, you only love to "feel" forgiven. You are a follower of Judas, you betray the teachings of our Christ.
You have not repented, you do not respect unborn life. You preach your false doctrine to benefit yourself, I have not seen such evil. Post abortive ministry (if it is represented accurately by you and carolemarie) is garbage. Shame on you women that have killed and hold another womans hand while she kills.
I know what you do for the cause Churchmouse...nothing, you make this sin acceptable.

reply from: churchmouse

Running again.......ya just cant answer questions can ya?
What do you do for the cause Joe?
Boy you really let go didnt you? Feel better?
All I did was ask a question. What is wrong with that? You can sit there and bash and hate post abortive women. You can say the plan is not working......
but when push comes to shove, you can offer no ideas or solutions to the problem.
I asked what you did for this cause, and obvious you do a big fat NOTHING.
So in my opinion, you are really not that passionate about this cause, you are simply here to fight.
How am I a false Christian? Could you prove that joe? Please do, if you find me in error say why and give scripture to back up your claim.
I have come forward and admitted the sin in my life. It realy looks like I am hiding doesnt it. LOL
I have repented and have asked Christ into my life.
You on the other hand, cant seem to answer one little question about anything.
Why?
Please show me joe, where I have altered Gods Word, the scriptrues. I have posted enough to make my point. How about addressing them one by one.
I wont count on it however......you never come back with any answers do you? LOL
WHAT DO YOU DO FOR THE CAUSE JOE?

reply from: carolemarie

I cannot judge those that repent. I do not judge Carolemarie or Churchmouse for their abortions.
Those that repent, I cannot treat them like a murderer but actually accept them with love. Those that do not repent must be "singled out" and shamed, so those that contemplate this grave sin understand what is at stake. Make it socially unacceptable and proclaim the message clearly that it is human life, it is murder.
It is good you don't judge those who repent. But if the way you "love" us is the way you speak to us on this board, I could do with a whole lot less :love".
When we are trying to talk to people about sin in their lives, we have to have their heart if they are going to hear us. You earn the right to be heard by the way you treat them. Share the truth kindly. It works so much better when the words we speak are spoken in love. You need to get rid of this idea of shaming people, it isn't what Christ would do to you.

reply from: nancyu

Only if a child was conceived, dear. Are you saying a girl who takes birth control to affect her periods has had abortions even though she never had sex? I have no way of knowing whether or not I conceived any children, therefore, I have no way of knowing if abortions took place and neither do you. I truthfully, do not believe I did.
Now please go somewhere and chill. Here is some http://youtube.com/watch?v=XMbvcp480Y4&feature=related for you.

reply from: nancyu

I cannot judge those that repent. I do not judge Carolemarie or Churchmouse for their abortions.
Those that repent, I cannot treat them like a murderer but actually accept them with love. Those that do not repent must be "singled out" and shamed, so those that contemplate this grave sin understand what is at stake. Make it socially unacceptable and proclaim the message clearly that it is human life, it is murder.
It is good you don't judge those who repent. But if the way you "love" us is the way you speak to us on this board, I could do with a whole lot less :love".
When we are trying to talk to people about sin in their lives, we have to have their heart if they are going to hear us. You earn the right to be heard by the way you treat them. Share the truth kindly. It works so much better when the words we speak are spoken in love. You need to get rid of this idea of shaming people, it isn't what Christ would do to you.
That is your opinion of what Christ would do. Do you speak for Him? It is my opinion that Christ wouldn't hand murdering moms tea and chocolate along with their bible. I think you need to get rid of the idea of rewarding people.

reply from: cracrat

Only if a child was conceived, dear. Are you saying a girl who takes birth control to affect her periods has had abortions even though she never had sex? I have no way of knowing whether or not I conceived any children, therefore, I have no way of knowing if abortions took place and neither do you. I truthfully, do not believe I did.
Now please go somewhere and chill. Here is some http://youtube.com/watch?v=XMbvcp480Y4&feature=related for you.
Some contraceptive pills will act as an abortifacient as well as contraceptive, some will not. Without knowing which one(s) nancy was using, and some deeply personal information about her sexual habits, there is no way of knowing if she caused the death of a child or not. How does you trying to get her to beat herself up about a matter of pure specualtion help anything?

reply from: churchmouse

LOL Not a chance nance.
You go ahead and hide your head in the sand, you obviously can't deal with it yet. You said, "unfortuantly" you took birth control. There is no other way to look at what you said, it means regret....... If it did nothing my dear, you would not have said, "unfortunately'.
So go ahead be in denial, I was too. I gave you credible information on Alcorns website, which I am sure you wont read, it might put you over the edge.
If you took birth control, you aborted children. That is the bottom line. Its easy for you to point the finger at others.........especially when you think you did not do it.
If a girl takes birth control and does not have sex, she does not kill a ivign human being. If a woman takes birth control and has sex she can and does kill an unborn child.
What .......you going to tell us all you took it because of your period? LMREO
hahahahah
I just cant figure out why you said, "unfortunately". Hmmmmmmm.
You know what ya did. You could have aborted far more than carole and i did together imagine that nancy.
The truth is, God will forgive you if you repent and ask nancy. He is a loving and kind God. Keep that in mind when you come to terms with what you did.
Thanks for the music link. I would much prefer Rachmaninoffs second concerto. But thanks.
Heres one link for you.
http://www.biblegateway.com/usage/form/

Type in "forgiving".
I think you need to get rid of the idea of hating people, particularly sinners and try loving them, like Christ commanded us to do. It seasy once you get the hang of it.
You can judge actions nancy and still love and glorify God.
She knows what she did and likes to point the finger at others, to make herself look and feel better. She questioned carols motives and heart in witnessing to sinners about God. She believes that when someone is down (in this case a post abortive woman) you kick them to the curb for a "period of time" (as she puts it-) to let them think about what they have done. You do NOT REACH OUT TO THEM. Christ would never do it this way. NEVER NEVER.
She claims to be a Chrisitan but is to embarrassed to acknowledge HIm......so she obviously does not stand on scripture because she does not know it or she would live it.
I think she is hostile and mean to people who do not agree with her because she knows what she has done.
Read the Alcorn Link I gave her and educate yourself about abortion and birth control. It causes abortions. I am no doctor but there are experts that address this issue. That is why she used the term, "unfortunately" because she used them.

reply from: galen

calm down.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoDc7SQpYMU

reply from: carolemarie

There is a big difference between talking birth control and having an abortion. As much as I enjoy you giving Nancy truth, it is an unfair comparision.
I know that I had abortions. I know that I was pregnant and that I decided to hire a doctor to make me unpregnant. It was a deliberate choice.
Nancy (or anyone else who takes birth control) first of all doesn't know any of the above . IT is only speculation that they may have conceived while on the pill. They may not have. More likely that they didn't conceive. Why should she be made to feel bad about someting she didn't do?
Anyways, Nancy posted that she felt bad about using the pill and even picked out four names of children. She shouldn't feel guilty for something that may or may not have happen.
I think your being unfair to her and a bit mean by comparing abortion to using the pill.

reply from: nancyu

1.) I said "unfortunately" because I do regret using birth control. Maybe I would have more children if I hadn't. This does not mean that I have murdered anyone.
2.) I am not embarrassed to admit that I believe in Christ. I may have a different opinion of what it means to be Christian than you do. I feel that my religious beliefs are just that "beliefs." I would never tell anyone that they must believe as I do. I don't think that I need to speak in a certain way to prove to anyone that I am Christian.
3.) I've said this before, and I will say it again. I don't hate you, I don't hate carolemarie. I don't automatically hate people because they have had an abortion. But if I see anything that I think will perpetuate abortion I'll say so; I really don't care much about hurt feelings right now. I promise, I'll make it all up to you later.

reply from: churchmouse

Well we will disagree about this one and that is ok. A lot of people are not sure about this as well. I went to a pro-life convention this past fall and they had a seminar on this subject. The debate got a bit heated because a lot of people do not want to include BC in the abortion category, probably because they are taking them. We did however have the medical community represented there and their facts tell a different story. We learn new information every year about the unborn in the womb, and I think in a few years this also will be facts set in stone. Look into this subject......
If I was unkind I apologize. I know sometimes the truth hurts and it has smacked me in the face many times as well. However I have to post what i feel is the truth. And I have studied this issue, talked to pharmasistis, doctors and the facts remain the same.
nancy......makes it clear in her posts that the unborn at EVERY STAGE is equal to each other. An unborn in the womb at one months gestation is equal to that of one at nine months. She even goes so far to say that, they both are equal and should have the same protection as a child that has been born. And I agree.
BUT........medical science says life starts at fertilization. And for Christians we know God values all life, He knitted us together in the womb He knew us before we were conceived. So with that said.........
If birth control can cause abortions.......and it does, then how can God think this is any different than an actual abortion. It might not sound as bad as abortion, but in Gods eyes it is the same thing. In Gods eyes how is there a big difference carol?
A life is a life. Because we cant see it.......its not there? We believe by faith dont we? "Blessed are those that believe and cant see."
So how can we error, play around with something, in this case BC when it can and does cause abortions. Because we cant see it happening, because we dont schedule it to happen, because we don't pay for it, because it has no visible body parts........its just a little more acceptable in Gods eyes?
I just dont think so carol. A woman has to know that birth control can cause abortions, if she is taking the pill while having sex. I think woman should be educated and know the facts. And this issue with BC and abortion will never go away.
You know, I know we both had abortions. But in no way shape or form can nancy, say she did not by taking BC cause an abortion, and kill a life. The possibility is there. Woman take birth control for various reasons. I think the biggest reason however is to STOP pregnancy. Women take it so they dont get pregnant while having sexual relations.
Nancy probably did not know, (most women do not) know that BC does this. But nevertheless it could have happened. If I learned that my actions ( although not intentional) caused some pain for someone, I wouldnt say, I'm not going to apologize because at the time I felt I did not wrong. I would still apologize. We have no idea how our own sin can splash on other people.
I work in this field because I later learned about fetal deveopment and knew what I did was wrong. I was not counseled in 1980 and told the facts. I could also make excuses. I had no idea the heart starts beating at 20 days. But I feel women should know ALL THE FACTS. And the fact that BC does this, I feel it also should be mentioned in the abortion debate.
Nancy could run with this and use it to glorify God instead of making excuses. She could say to people that she had no idea that BC does this, but show them what medical science says about it and educate them.
If you feel I am being unfair to her, I am sorry.
I still however will stand on what the medical community says about BC. Women, especially Christian women should know all the facts. God knows when life starts. Because we cant see it is no excuse to error.
I apologize nancy if I sounded mean, I do not hate you either. We both love the unborn child and believe that at the beginning of life it deserves personhood. I believe that we need to work towards changing our laws to include them. Many pro-lifers do not even believe this. So we do agree on many things.
God bless

reply from: nancyu

Well we will disagree about this one and that is ok. A lot of people are not sure about this as well. I went to a pro-life convention this past fall and they had a seminar on this subject. The debate got a bit heated because a lot of people do not want to include BC in the abortion category, probably because they are taking them. We did however have the medical community represented there and their facts tell a different story. We learn new information every year about the unborn in the womb, and I think in a few years this also will be facts set in stone. Look into this subject......
If I was unkind I apologize. I know sometimes the truth hurts and it has smacked me in the face many times as well. However I have to post what i feel is the truth. And I have studied this issue, talked to pharmasistis, doctors and the facts remain the same.
nancy......makes it clear in her posts that the unborn at EVERY STAGE is equal to each other. An unborn in the womb at one months gestation is equal to that of one at nine months. She even goes so far to say that, they both are equal and should have the same protection as a child that has been born. And I agree.
BUT........medical science says life starts at fertilization. And for Christians we know God values all life, He knitted us together in the womb He knew us before we were conceived. So with that said.........
If birth control can cause abortions.......and it does, then how can God think this is any different than an actual abortion. It might not sound as bad as abortion, but in Gods eyes it is the same thing. In Gods eyes how is there a big difference carol?
A life is a life. Because we cant see it.......its not there? We believe by faith dont we? "Blessed are those that believe and cant see."
So how can we error, play around with something, in this case BC when it can and does cause abortions. Because we cant see it happening, because we dont schedule it to happen, because we don't pay for it, because it has no visible body parts........its just a little more acceptable in Gods eyes?
I just dont think so carol. A woman has to know that birth control can cause abortions, if she is taking the pill while having sex. I think woman should be educated and know the facts. And this issue with BC and abortion will never go away.
You know, I know we both had abortions. But in no way shape or form can nancy, say she did not by taking BC cause an abortion, and kill a life. The possibility is there. Woman take birth control for various reasons. I think the biggest reason however is to STOP pregnancy. Women take it so they dont get pregnant while having sexual relations.
Nancy probably did not know, (most women do not) know that BC does this. But nevertheless it could have happened. If I learned that my actions ( although not intentional) caused some pain for someone, I wouldnt say, I'm not going to apologize because at the time I felt I did not wrong. I would still apologize. We have no idea how our own sin can splash on other people.
I work in this field because I later learned about fetal deveopment and knew what I did was wrong. I was not counseled in 1980 and told the facts. I could also make excuses. I had no idea the heart starts beating at 20 days. But I feel women should know ALL THE FACTS. And the fact that BC does this, I feel it also should be mentioned in the abortion debate.
Nancy could run with this and use it to glorify God instead of making excuses. She could say to people that she had no idea that BC does this, but show them what medical science says about it and educate them.
If you feel I am being unfair to her, I am sorry.
I still however will stand on what the medical community says about BC. Women, especially Christian women should know all the facts. God knows when life starts. Because we cant see it is no excuse to error.
I apologize nancy if I sounded mean, I do not hate you either. We both love the unborn child and believe that at the beginning of life it deserves personhood. I believe that we need to work towards changing our laws to include them. Many pro-lifers do not even believe this. So we do agree on many things.
God bless
I accept your apology. And I agree with your belief that b/c can cause abortions. This is something that all women should know. That is why I don't mind the subject coming up. It is something I learned a short time ago. And I was very upset at the idea that I could have had abortions and never even known. (that's not even pro choice!)
I am not saying my ignorance excuses me. Maybe God will consider preventing a life as bad as taking one. It's a question that I can't answer. I'll have to wait and see.
All I know is that you can not truthfully call a women a murderer who uses a birth control pill, unless there is some way to prove that the birth control caused the death of a child. There is testimony on this board of women who conceived and gave birth to healthy children while using birth control. If you fear that women will use birth control to purposely abort, I think that fear is unwarranted because it wouldn't be a very reliable method.
By the way, I still disagree with you about the law. As you say an unborn child is a person, and it is illegal to murder persons. I think the law is misunderstood and hard to enforce, but I don't believe that abortion is legal, unless it can happen without killing the baby.
The problem is the same regardless. The only way to stop abortion is to change attitudes and beliefs about it, and to help people learn the truth. I think that is why we are all here. I don't think our disagreements will hurt us in the long run, I think they will help us all to understand each other better, and hopefully become better people as a result. (maybe?)

reply from: carolemarie

According to dr.'s the pill works three ways.
1. Prevents ovulation
2. Thickens the mucus so the sperm can't travel and reach the egg, dying in route
3. Hardens the lining in the uterus to prevent implantation.
Only the third way would be causing an early abortion. None of the medical professionals know when the third method kicks in, if it ever does or how frequent that could happen. And since women become pregant while taking the pill, it would seem to say that the third method apparently never kicks in.
I don't feel one bit guilty for using birth control, but I do regret my abortions. There is a gigantic difference between actually having an abortion and taking birth control. There is no way you can prove that anyone conceived on the pill and had a micro abortion due to the third mechansim. And I am not going to wallow in false guilt over something that might have or might not have happen. A possiblity exist that I wasn't pregnant and the abortion provider lied to me and took my money and performed an abortion on me while I wasn't pregnant. I have no way of knowing if that happen or not. But that doesn't mean I get to say that I didn't have an abortion because I decided that was what happen!

The difference is the intent and the fact that you don't even know if it happen. How can it be a sin if it never happen? I think God gave us brains to figure out things like heart surgery and how to prevent pregnancy in a marriage. He can still open the womb if He chooses, even if we are using the pill or condoms. Taking the pill isn't like having an abortion!

reply from: churchmouse

WE need to work to try to change laws and this can be done in many ways. The majority religion in the United States is Christian. I firmly believe that if every pastor preached about how God values life and that abortion is wrong and a sin agaisnt God, people might get it. But clergy all over this country do not do it. Wow once a year on Right to Life Sunday they preach it....not nearly enough.
You look at the mega ministers in the country......Warren and Osteen, Lucado....and they are a joke. They preach to sell books, to make people feel good about themselves. I watch Osteen and want to puke. He never mentions sin. Never mentions that Jesus is the ONLY WAY. His message is prosperity, not that one needs Jesus to make it to heaven.
James Kenndy until his death always stood up for the unborn, as do Franklin Graham.....Catholics above all other faiths stand up for the unborn. But for the most part, the Christian community as a whole does NOT CARE. Like you said we need to educate people about fetal developement.
I agree lets find some common ground. I for one will really make the effort. We both know that abortion is premeditated murder. There is no other term to give it.
Luke 1:15
15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.
The Holy Spirit is in every child in the womb. This establishes personhood. So if the Holy Spirit can be present in the womb what happens when an abortionist kills it? Are they hurting the mother or the child? That is what we need to tell Christians.
Any person who claims to be a Christian IMO should see that abortion is KILLING. It is taking the life of something that does not belong to them. It is playing God. Abortion is a moral issue maybe not for the person with no faith, but for people who love the Lord it is, and if it isn't it should be. PASTORS SHOULD PREACH THIS TO CONGREGATIONS ON A REGULAR BASIS.
God Bless.

reply from: faithman

I don't feel one bit guilty for using birth control, but I do regret my abortions. There is a gigantic difference between actually having an abortion and taking birth control. There is no way you can prove that anyone conceived on the pill and had a micro abortion due to the third mechansim. And I am not going to wallow in false guilt over something that might have or might not have happen. A possiblity exist that I wasn't pregnant and the abortion provider lied to me and took my money and performed an abortion on me while I wasn't pregnant. I have no way of knowing if that happen or not. But that doesn't mean I get to say that I didn't have an abortion because I decided that was what happen!

The difference is the intent and the fact that you don't even know if it happen. How can it be a sin if it never happen? I think God gave us brains to figure out things like heart surgery and how to prevent pregnancy in a marriage. He can still open the womb if He chooses, even if we are using the pill or condoms. Taking the pill isn't like having an abortion!
This is like a hunter taking a shot at an obscured target, and not knowing for sure if it is human or not. If it is, and they kill it, it is man slaughter. If a woman takes the pill knowing full wel it "MIGHT" kill a womb child, then if it does, they are just as guilty as the reckless hunter. But of course if you have already purposely killed three, no big deal to kill more by accident, huh? If BC even has an outside chance of killing a womb child it is evil. Not to mention the way this stuff poisions a woman to boot.

reply from: galen

so tell us FM... nancy took the pill are you now going to clobber her verbally too?

reply from: churchmouse

I agree. Guilt and knowing before hand is the same thing. We want to give the unborn personhood. We can't guess or pinpoint EXACTLY as to when their lives actually start. We know now what BC does. Read the Physicians Desk Reference Book or ask any Pharmacist, they will tell you.
And for Christians here, we know what the Bible says about when life starts. How can we tamper with that and take the chance with birth control? If you take birth contol and know what it does, then the possibility is there that you will abort. Like I said, just because we don't schedule, just because we dont have to pay for an abortion, does not mean it does not happen by BC. If you want to make sure you do not kill, then you dont take the chance with pills period.

It's like the pro-choicer that says, "I believe in abortion up until three months, or when its viable. When does the exact point of viability take place however? I would think that we certainly would want to know with no doubts as to when this happens, especially when the act of abortion deals with killing it.
Absurd. If you dont know for sure what the pill might do......then you do not take it.
Galen if nancy did not know at the time what she was doing, then it would not be her fault and she cant be blamed. On the other hand if she did, then she is guilty of possibly doing this.
We did not know the dangers of smoking when my mom started 60 some years ago. We know the dangers of it today. Same with birth control......as science makes advances we know more about life and the tiniest aspects concerning it.
Viability used to be a lot later than it is today. With technicological advances....we can save little ones in the womb a lot earlier.
We cant deny the truth, even though at one time we did not stand on it and that truth convicts us. We have to take that truth and go forward, educating others.
I am sure nancy will stand on the truth about BCP today, knowing what she knows now about it.
In Gods eyes an abortion is an abortion, whether it is done surgically or by the morning after pill, or birth control pills. They all take a life.

reply from: nancyu

I agree. Guilt and knowing before hand is the same thing. We want to give the unborn personhood. We can't guess or pinpoint EXACTLY as to when their lives actually start. We know now what BC does. Read the Physicians Desk Reference Book or ask any Pharmacist, they will tell you.
And for Christians here, we know what the Bible says about when life starts. How can we tamper with that and take the chance with birth control? If you take birth contol and know what it does, then the possibility is there that you will abort. Like I said, just because we don't schedule, just because we dont have to pay for an abortion, does not mean it does not happen by BC. If you want to make sure you do not kill, then you dont take the chance with pills period.
It's like the pro-choicer that says, "I believe in abortion up until three months, or when its viable. When does the exact point of viability take place however? I would think that we certainly would want to know with no doubts as to when this happens, especially when the act of abortion deals with killing it.
Absurd. If you dont know for sure what the pill might do......then you do not take it.
Galen if nancy did not know at the time what she was doing, then it would not be her fault and she cant be blamed. On the other hand if she did, then she is guilty of possibly doing this.
We did not know the dangers of smoking when my mom started 60 some years ago. We know the dangers of it today. Same with birth control......as science makes advances we know more about life and the tiniest aspects concerning it.
Viability used to be a lot later than it is today. With technicological advances....we can save little ones in the womb a lot earlier.
We cant deny the truth, even though at one time we did not stand on it and that truth convicts us. We have to take that truth and go forward, educating others.
I am sure nancy will stand on the truth about BCP today, knowing what she knows now about it.
In Gods eyes an abortion is an abortion, whether it is done surgically or by the morning after pill, or birth control pills. They all take a life.
I will stand on the truth about it. I don't advocate any birth control. But I would only advocate outlawing types which are abortifacient. There needs to be more education, and information put out to the public about it. I know more than I did a few years ago, but the truth is still hard to come by.
This is from the link you provided churchmouse:
"For years proabortionists have argued that if the Human Life Amendment, which recognizes each human life begins at conception, was to be put into law, this would lead to the banning of both the IUD and the Pill. When hearing this I used to think, "They're misrepresenting the facts and agitating people by pretending the Pill would be jeopardized by the HLA."
I realize now that while their point was to agitate people against the Human Life Amendment, they were actually correct in saying that if the amendment was passed and taken seriously, the Pill's legality would be jeopardized. They never claimed condoms or diaphragms would be made illegal by the Human Life Amendment. Why? Because when they work, those methods are 100% contraceptives-they never cause abortions. It's because they know that the Pill sometimes prevents implantation that abortion advocates could honestly claim that an amendment stating human life begins at conception would effectively condemn the Pill."
http://www.jesus-passion.com/bcpill1.html#Medical_Journals_and_Textbooks_Medical_Journals_and_Textbooks_

There was also a thread here on PLA addressing birth control. http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=3896

reply from: churchmouse

I think these are good links to what we are talking about here.
http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

http://www.epm.org/bcp.html

http://www.epm.org/articles/bcp3300.html

Here is evidence of coverup.
http://www.titus2menandwomen.org/Hope/StrongMarriages/ThePill/index.shtml

Here is another good one that looks at birth control and the bible.
http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/Birth_Control.html

http://www.aaplog.org/collition.htm

http://www.lifeadvocate.org/9_97/cover_s1.htm


Most women do not know about the links, that is not their fault. But today new research tells us more.
When I walked into PP in 1979, they did not counsel me. They did not tell me the heart had started beating. I literally thought I had stopped it before it started doing anything. It was a blob of tissue. Even though I didnt know the details, I still did it. I could tell women that it wasnt my fault, that I was decieved. But is that entirely the truth? We are lucky today to know more facts. And the facts today say that the pill has a direct connection to abortions. The facts today say that abortion has a direct link to breast cancer, colon cancer and cervical cancer but some pro-lifers still deny this research.
If birth control pills cause abortions, then every pro-choicer should be agaisnt them being legal. If life starts at fertilization......then they are wrong to use.

I am pro-human life amendment, just so you know.
http://www.nchla.org/datasource/idocuments/HLAmajortexts.pdf

reply from: faithman

I am not for an amendment because it is un-nessisary, and poses a threat to the constitution. All that is needed is for the life at conception act to be pass, and a president to sign. An amendment takes years. An act of congress weeks. Then 14th amendment already gives congress the authority to act. Those who advocate an amendment are simple ignorant of how our government works, and just how dangerous to the republic amending the constitution can be.

reply from: galen

i actually agree with that statement FM....

reply from: neat62

It is indeed our duty to judge others....the greatest Commandment, love thy neighbor, dicates such.
It is our duty to judge our friends and family...to make them aware of their choice to either commit sin or to be close to the occasion of sin....as I would expect my fellow family members or friends to attempt to help me avoid the near occasion of sin as well, out of love and respect for me.
What we cannot do, however, is CONDEMN...I can't say to another..."you are going to He$$ for that"...because I do not have that power or ability only God does!

reply from: galen

i actually agree with that statement neat62...
btw i called a truce w/ leftist... do you want to do that also?

reply from: Faramir

It is indeed our duty to judge others....the greatest Commandment, love thy neighbor, dicates such.
It is our duty to judge our friends and family...to make them aware of their choice to either commit sin or to be close to the occasion of sin....as I would expect my fellow family members or friends to attempt to help me avoid the near occasion of sin as well, out of love and respect for me.
What we cannot do, however, is CONDEMN...I can't say to another..."you are going to He$$ for that"...because I do not have that power or ability only God does!
My objection had been to a type of condemnation that was masquerading as "judgement."
Jesus' words would be better translated, "Condemn not lest ye be condemned."
We can judge the act, but not the person. We can't see his heart. We can't say that the 14 year old girl who aborted intended to commit murder, and is therefore a "killer." She may not have had a clue.

reply from: churchmouse

If an amendment is unnessary then so is a life at conception act. Actually nothing is needed, everyone including the unborn is included in the Constitution. Our government just does not recognize that fact. And the present president will sign it......to be overturned by the next administration and president. Thats what happens with law today.
How does it pose a threat to the Constitution? I am afraid our only hope is SCOTUS.
Example.... "The Arizona Senate passed the final version of SB 1048 by a vote of 18-6, with six members absent. The Senate vote demonstrates the significant bi-partisan support for banning the brutal and horrific practice of partial-birth abortion in our state. SB 1048 addresses the two concerns the Governor brought up when she vetoed the previous partial-birth abortion bill in April.

SB 1048 must receive final approval from the House before it goes back to the Governor. Please continue to pray for all of the CAP-supported bills to move successfully through the Legislature." www.azpolicy.org
All that work and she will veto it. Any law that passes by the people in Arizona she overturns and vetos.
I agree we can judge, but only actions. We cant judge anothers heart, only God can do that. But God commanded us to spread the gospel message. And the gospel is about Christ. We need to tell people that they will go to hell unless they accept Christ, He is the ONLY WAY. He came to save sinners. That is why Christ talked more about hell than He ever did about heaven.

reply from: faithman

Gosh this get teedious but here we go again. An amendment takes years. It must goe thru the congress, then passed by 3/4 of the statesw. It also puts us dangerously close to a constitutional convention where the whole constitution could be thrown out and the new world socialist one brought in. And an amendment can be over tern as well. Remember prohibition? An act of congress only takes weeks, and as you say the constitution al ready has enough in it to atribute personhood to the womb child. The SC already ruled in RvW that the 14th amendment has the authority to do just that. So to dangerously amend the constitution, and take years of dead babies to gitter done, it simply does not make sence to advocate for such. The focus must be personhood thru an act of congress. An amendment movement steals that focus and endangers our republic.

reply from: churchmouse

faithman said, "Gosh this get teedious but here we go again."
Ask a simple question and get an answer such as yours. Gee it puts you out that much to answer it faithman?
Most things take years.
Our Constitution has already been raped. The NWO walks right over documents such as the Constitution. Our history has been, and is being changed by left wing radical socialists.
We need to get to the Supreme Court don't we? I am no Constitutional scholar so I am not sure what the best way is.........The Democrats get in and there will be no hope.

reply from: carolemarie

Most things take years.
Our Constitution has already been raped. The NWO walks right over documents such as the Constitution. Our history has been, and is being changed by left wing radical socialists.
We need to get to the Supreme Court don't we? I am no Constitutional scholar so I am not sure what the best way is.........The Democrats get in and there will be no hope.
I think we should simply overturn Roe, like with a ban on performing abortion like in South Dakota. If that fails (supreme court refusing to uphold it) then a constitutional amendment banning performing abortions.
Any law passed by congress can be overturned if the other side get enough votes, and the Supreme Court can rule it unconstitutional.

reply from: carolemarie

Most things take years.
Our Constitution has already been raped. The NWO walks right over documents such as the Constitution. Our history has been, and is being changed by left wing radical socialists.
We need to get to the Supreme Court don't we? I am no Constitutional scholar so I am not sure what the best way is.........The Democrats get in and there will be no hope.
We need to get to the Supreme Court don't we? I am no Constitutional scholar so I am not sure what the best way is.........The Democrats get in and there will be no hope.
I think we should simply overturn Roe, like with a ban on performing abortion like in South Dakota. If that fails (supreme court refusing to uphold it) then a constitutional amendment banning performing abortions.
Any law passed by congress can be overturned if the other side get enough votes, and the Supreme Court can rule it unconstitutional. They can't overturn a constitutional amendment that easily.

reply from: faithman

Most things take years.
Our Constitution has already been raped. The NWO walks right over documents such as the Constitution. Our history has been, and is being changed by left wing radical socialists.
We need to get to the Supreme Court don't we? I am no Constitutional scholar so I am not sure what the best way is.........The Democrats get in and there will be no hope.
We need to get to the Supreme Court don't we? I am no Constitutional scholar so I am not sure what the best way is.........The Democrats get in and there will be no hope.
I think we should simply overturn Roe, like with a ban on performing abortion like in South Dakota. If that fails (supreme court refusing to uphold it) then a constitutional amendment banning performing abortions.
Any law passed by congress can be overturned if the other side get enough votes, and the Supreme Court can rule it unconstitutional. They can't overturn a constitutional amendment that easily.
The court could not overturn the life at conception act because they have already ruled that such an act is constitutional in RvW. I have already explained that an amendment movement endangers the constitution.

reply from: faithman

No, they didn't. They said that if personhood was established (during the hearing) Roe would lose. They decided that it had not been established. Our Congress can't over ride their decision simply by declaring that the unborn are persons. Watch what I tell you. I have researched this, and I don't like it any more than you do, nor will I derive any pleasure from saying "I told you so," but I'm sure I'm right about this. I think this is why it died in committee in the Senate (where it would have to go back to before it goes to the President, who can veto it, in which case it would take a 2/3 majority to pass, just like a constitutional amendment).
Wrong again chimp chump. Blackmond conceeded that the 14th amendment already gave congress the authority to act. An amendment not only takes 3/4 of the congress, but 3/4 of the states. That is why ERA failed. Not enough states voted for it. It also threw us paralesly close to a constitutional convention which could over throw the constitution all together, and usher in the socialist one they have waiting in the wings. You arent a very good researcher.


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