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Forgiveness

Can you forgive the unforgivable?

by: nancyu

I have some issues with forgiveness. teddybearhamster is trying to forgive her mother for things her mom did to her, I have people in my life that I can't forgive. Maybe we need a little more help with this.

reply from: xnavy

i understand that struggle, i had to forgive my mother after she told me when i was 24 years old that if she had been able to get an
abortion she would have and i would not be here.

reply from: cracrat

One has to try. To not do so requires that baggage be carried and that, IMO, is not good in the long run.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It is what one becomes, not what they were, that matters. If a person forsakes their former ways, confesses that they were wrong, past transgressions are to be forgiven. The person is accepted as they are now, not as they were. If a person does not forsake or confess past wrongs, if they continue in that lifestyle, they shall not be forgiven.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It is what one is now, not what they were that matters. If a person forsakes their former ways and confesses their past faults they shall be forgiven. If a person continues in their previous ways and does not confess fault they shall not be forgiven.

reply from: JasonFontaine

When you find inner peace - it's much easier to forgive. When you can be happy simply by waking up in the morning - forgiveness is easy.
Most people do not have this - which allows them to do irritating, mean, hurtful things. However, when you realize how special you really are - and they are just being who they are - it's easier to forgive.
Rejoice in yourself - forgive yourself for what you've done in your own past. You are becoming better with each day. Think of the things you may have done where somebody may have to forgive you - and forgiveness becomes much easier.
Simplicity is the purest form of beauty - and heals all.
Wow...am I ZEN today or what? Good luck!

reply from: faithman

Please understand. To forgive does not mean that what people did is ok. Nor does it mean you have to have anything to do with them. It means you are letting go of the ill feelings. You are not allowing them to have that kind of control over your life. Unforgiveness holds you in bondage, and is unhealthy. To hold a grudge is to be victimized twice. Only the second time you victimize yourself.

reply from: sander

Forgiving frees the one who is doing the forgiving.
Jesus said, forgive and you shall be forgiven.
Mark 11:26
But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.
Not forgiving creates and sustains a victim mentality. You are allowing yourself to remain hostage to the person who has done the wrong.
This is from one study on forgivness:
One of the things that we always talk about in our work are the consequences of being a victim. Often when we're mad we don't realize the damage that's being doing to our own physical well being. The rush of adrenaline is not good for the heart. Being angry or frustrated is bad for the immune system.
And feeling like a victim ultimately disempowers us. It's not the event that does that, it's the way we perceive it. If we perceive ourselves as helpless, that carries over into other things and causes us to become even more reactive, because our helplessness is receiving such acknowledgement.
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/nov3/luskin.htm

Another study:
Harndon says forgiveness "releases the offender from prolonged anger, rage and stress that have been linked to physiological problems, such as cardiovascular diseases, high blood pressure, hypertension, cancer and other psychosomatic illnesses."
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/forgive.html

Turning to God for the power to forgive is the key in my own life.
I can't do it in myself, but I ask God to give me His forgivness for the one who has wronged me...it works wonders!

reply from: nancyu

I agree.
There are some people I just can't forgive. Maybe Jesus could, but I can't. I can separate myself from them and put aside my ill feelings for them, but forgive means something more to me, and I haven't figured out a way to truly forgive someone who continues to do harm, and is not sorry for what they have done.

reply from: faithman

I agree.
There are some people I just can't forgive. Maybe Jesus could, but I can't. I can separate myself from them and put aside my ill feelings for them, but forgive means something more to me, and I haven't figured out a way to truly forgive someone who continues to do harm, and is not sorry for what they have done.
What were some of the last words of Jesus on the cross? Forgive them Father they know not what they do. You are right, and have come to a truth. In and of your self, you do not have the power to forgive. You need divine help, just like the rest of us. Allow the Lord Jesus to forgive thru you. Surrender your feelings to Him, and ask for the divine gift of forgiveness to be loosed thru you. Cast all your care on Him, for He cares for you.

reply from: sander

As a believer you have a Power Source to draw from when you can't draw from your own power.
Ask God to give you His forgivness for them, it's imperative to your spiritual and physical/mental well being.
The world is loaded to the brim with people who do harm and will never be sorry, but we can't allow anyone to hold us hostage to their self indulgences.
That way they win twice and I'm not willing to let that happen...the dirty rats!
We don't have to like what they did or even like them, but to let go and forgive empowers the forgiver.
But, being the recipent of forgivness can turn a life around too.
Forgivness is a complicated matter, no doubt. But, like love, it's a choice.

reply from: faithman

As a believer you have a Power Source to draw from when you can't draw from your own power.
Ask God to give you His forgivness for them, it's imperative to your spiritual and physical/mental well being.
The world is loaded to the brim with people who do harm and will never be sorry, but we can't allow anyone to hold us hostage to their self indulgences.
That way they win twice and I'm not willing to let that happen...the dirty rats!
We don't have to like what they did or even like them, but to let go and forgive empowers the forgiver.
But, being the recipent of forgivness can turn a life around too.
Forgivness is a complicated matter, no doubt. But, like love, it's a choice.
Dirty rats ehh? Chapter and verse please.

reply from: JasonFontaine

Think how ruthless the person you are willing to forgive can be to you.
And, rememeber also Jesus Christ was crucified for them as well as you. Imagine being crucified for this person - this vile person in your life. Jesus Christ did just that and loves both of you.
They continue to do harm - and they have no remorse - I feel sorry for them. And, you can end them hurting you any furhter by forgiving - and walking away. Tell them you love them, give them a hug and whisper - "I forgive you and love you" and walk away.
They will seek you - and when they try and hurt you again - point this out.
The love of my life didn't want me. I was crazy for her. Never did I want to let go. I proposed on Christmas Eve and she said - "no - you're just a friend!"
So, I hugged her as tight as I could and told her to walk with the Lord - I blessed her and kissed her forehead...and told her I'd always love her - but this was goodbye. She didn't beleive me and I never saw her after that.....but I continue to pray for her...and I've forgiven her....
You can do it.....I promise you can do it....you're too strong of a person not to!

reply from: lukesmom

You have gotten several good ideas on the whys and hows of forgiveness but you say you still can't forgive. Maybe we are missing something basic here in your concept of forgiveness. Can you explain what your definition of forgiveness is and what it would mean to you to actually forgive in your situation?

reply from: lukesmom

Maybe we are missing something really basic here. What is your definition of "forgiveness" and what would forgiving mean to you in your situation?

reply from: sander

Dirty rats 1:1
They shalt win twice when thou doesn't forgive eth.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It is what one is now, not what they were that matters. If a person forsakes their former ways and confesses their past faults they shall be forgiven. If a person continues in their previous ways and does not confess fault they shall not be forgiven.
I believe what I've posted above is the biblical view of forgiveness. If a Muslim murders a family member of yours and is defiant, saying he would kill the dirty kuffirs (non-believers) again if he had an opportunity to act for Allah; it would be incorrect for you to grant such a person forgiveness. Only after confession of fault and actual change in the violating parties behavior is forgiveness to be granted. Forgiving someone who has changed is required, otherwise, our Father will not forgive us.

reply from: faithman

It is what one is now, not what they were that matters. If a person forsakes their former ways and confesses their past faults they shall be forgiven. If a person continues in their previous ways and does not confess fault they shall not be forgiven.
I believe what I've posted above is the biblical view of forgiveness. If a Muslim murders a family member of yours and is defiant, saying he would kill the dirty kuffirs (non-believers) again if he had an opportunity to act for Allah; it would be incorrect for you to grant such a person forgiveness. Only after confession of fault and actual change in the violating parties behavior is forgiveness to be granted. Forgiving someone who has changed is required, otherwise, our Father will not forgive us.
You got it all screwed up and has nothing to do with the subject at hand. But that doesn't really suprise me seeings how your theology comes from cults. The forgiveness I am talking about is divine. It is in place no matter if the other party recieves it or not. It is a way to release feelings into God's hands. I have a 12 gadge pump for any jehodist who want to try to do this infedel in.

reply from: nancyu

This is an excellent question, and I think it is exactly what is confusing me. It's more of a spiritual thing. I would turn away from them, and not allow them in my heart. Forgiveness I think would mean I would allow them back in my life and my heart. Something I couldn't do without some contribution on their part.
Thank you all. Your comments are most helpful and healing.

reply from: sander

Maybe that's what is holding you back, by forgiving them does not mean you have to let them back into your life nor your heart. It releases them to God and then He can deal with their hearts.
I've forgiven family members for some very hurtful things and have never had anymore communication with them and still feel the freedom and cleansing from that forgiveness. And a few I have had communication with since and was unable to recall the hurt...forgivness holds so much power!
I admire your willingness to deal with this subject, it's a tough one!

reply from: faithman

I think we are making progress here. We make forgiveness availiable to others, but repentance on their part is required for it to be exstended. Our lives are like a garden. When folks come in and stomp on the flowers, we don't let them back in the garden until they learn maners. Luke 17:1-3 gives us that concept. But we need to have already forgiven them in our heart, so we don't incur the bad effects of it. What I am talking about is imposible for us to do in our own strengeth. Our time on earth is best spent being a witness for Him. We always fail in our own strength. We always win when we surrender to Him, and inhabit the victory He won for us at the cross. There are people that I do not allow in my life because of the things they have done to me. But the gift of forgiveness waits on them at my garden gate. "I am sorry" is the pass word. But thru Christ, I bear them no ill will. I pray for them, and I pray the Lord protects others from their toxic personalities. For the most part, trust is a given from me. But trust betrayed, must be earned in order to be restored. That means repentance, and restoration. If one is truely sorry, they will want to make up for the wrong they have done. They have to understand that they have trespassed into my garden, and the gate is closed until they learn to stay on the paths, and quit stomping the flowers. In the mean time, I must also weed out grudges, and unforgiveness, as these are taking up space where God could be planting blessings. You are God's husbandtry. We are co-laborers with Him in the gardens of our lives. We may never be able to open the gate to those who have tresspassed against it. But we don't need to let the weeds of past wrongs steal the harvest of God's rights. It behooves us to think about the mis behavior we may have done in anothers garden. There might be a few garden gates we need to knock on.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It is what one is now, not what they were that matters. If a person forsakes their former ways and confesses their past faults they shall be forgiven. If a person continues in their previous ways and does not confess fault they shall not be forgiven.
I believe what I've posted above is the biblical view of forgiveness. If a Muslim murders a family member of yours and is defiant, saying he would kill the dirty kuffirs (non-believers) again if he had an opportunity to act for Allah; it would be incorrect for you to grant such a person forgiveness. Only after confession of fault and actual change in the violating parties behavior is forgiveness to be granted. Forgiving someone who has changed is required, otherwise, our Father will not forgive us.
You got it all screwed up and has nothing to do with the subject at hand. But that doesn't really suprise me seeings how your theology comes from cults. The forgiveness I am talking about is divine. It is in place no matter if the other party recieves it or not. It is a way to release feelings into God's hands.
Repentance of sin (quit doing it) and confession of the sins previously committed are necessary to receiving forgiveness. The biblical model is also one we should apply between ourselves.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't think it means you have to let them back in your life. You just let go of wanting justice or any expectations of them and go on and enjoy your life without having to resent them.
Forgiveness is actually setting you free
You don't have to hang out with people who hurt you and are not sorry. Even if they are sorry you still don't have to have a relationship with them.
But you can let go of the hurt and pain and acknowlege that they are flawed people who need the Lord and pray for them to be healed. I personally find it difficult to pray for someone and be mad at them at the same time.
And I am not saying it is easy at all, it isn't.
Blessings,
Carolemarie

reply from: yoda

I agree with sander. Forgiving does not mean forgetting. It means letting go of the anger and rage, but still knowing the risk of having contact with that person. There's an old saying that goes "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me".

reply from: carolemarie

I think we are suppose to forgive no matter if they are sorry or repent or not.
Forgiveness is a response to letting go of your right to be hurt/angry.
Their repentence isn't part of it. That is an extra blessing if they are sorry, but even if they are happy they did it and glad you are suffering, you still have to forgive....it isn't an option. You were forgiven and told to forgive others.

reply from: lukesmom

I often think of that school of Amish children who were so horribly murdered. Those parents forgave the person that murdered them. That does not mean they will ever let that person near their children again but instead that they themselves through their own forgiveness have allowed themselves to be free of hate and anger. Forgiveness of others and of ourselves is HARD but once done is cleansing and freeing. Hate and anger take a lot of negative energy and is a waste of emotion. Often times it is emotion wasted on others. Could I be as forgiving as those Amish parents? I hope I never have to find out but I do know with the Grace of God, anything is possible. I also know, if those Amish parents can forgive the murderer of their children, I can forgive some of the "small" infractions in my life.
Good luck in this and God bless, Sue, Luke's mom

reply from: faithman

I think we are suppose to forgive no matter if they are sorry or repent or not.
Forgiveness is a response to letting go of your right to be hurt/angry.
Their repentence isn't part of it. That is an extra blessing if they are sorry, but even if they are happy they did it and glad you are suffering, you still have to forgive....it isn't an option. You were forgiven and told to forgive others.
In case you didn't read my post, that is exactly what I said. I don't think we need the clarification of a baby killer.

reply from: lukesmom

Oh fman, please don't tarnish such a beautiful and spiritual thread with hateful words!

reply from: faithman

No hate, just the truth. Don't really care for those who try to piggy back on someone elses hard work. Like I said, my posts do not need the clarification of a baby killer.

reply from: Faramir

When I visited PA a few months ago--not too far from Lancaster where this tragedy happened, the priest gave a beautiful homily about forgiveness, using these Amish people as an example.
What I hadn't known about that incident, is that the very day this happened, they sang a song that had to do with not knowing what life will bring and that this morning you could be running and playing and maybe tomorrow or even today that could end.
Also, in the schoolroom was a sign that said "JOY." It was a acronym for, Jesus first, then Others, and last, Yourself.
They were flooded with donations, and made sure that the widow of the murderer was also taken care of, and they went to the murderer's funeral.
What a tragedy, but what a marvellous example to all of us about forgiveness.

reply from: Faramir

No hate, just the truth. Don't really care for those who try to piggy back on someone elses hard work. Like I said, my posts do not need the clarification of a baby killer.
What a hateful thing to say, and what a contradiction of what this thread is about.

reply from: nancyu

No hate, just the truth. Don't really care for those who try to piggy back on someone elses hard work. Like I said, my posts do not need the clarification of a baby killer.
What a hateful thing to say, and what a contradiction of what this thread is about.
I don't think it is a contradiction, because we haven't all agreed about what forgiveness is. Some say that we must forgive. I disagree. I don't think that people who continue to do evil deserve forgiveness.

reply from: sander

And in the end they won't receive forgivness when it will matter most....in eternity.

reply from: faithman

No hate, just the truth. Don't really care for those who try to piggy back on someone elses hard work. Like I said, my posts do not need the clarification of a baby killer.
What a hateful thing to say, and what a contradiction of what this thread is about.
I don't think it is a contradiction, because we haven't all agreed about what forgiveness is. Some say that we must forgive. I disagree. I don't think that people who continue to do evil deserve forgiveness.
We must make forgiveness available. But as my post have pointed out over and over again. Though forgiveness is available, it is only extended after repentance, and restitution. Me properly identifying a baby killer as such is not hatful, nor contratictory to this thred at all.

reply from: faithman

We make forgiveness availiable to others, but repentance on their part is required for it to be exstended. Our lives are like a garden. When folks come in and stomp on the flowers, we don't let them back in the garden until they learn maners. Luke 17:1-3 gives us that concept. But we need to have already forgiven them in our heart, so we don't incur the bad effects of it. What I am talking about is imposible for us to do in our own strengeth. Our time on earth is best spent being a witness for Him. We always fail in our own strength. We always win when we surrender to Him, and inhabit the victory He won for us at the cross. There are people that I do not allow in my life because of the things they have done to me. But the gift of forgiveness waits on them at my garden gate. "I am sorry" is the pass word. But thru Christ, I bear them no ill will. I pray for them, and I pray the Lord protects others from their toxic personalities. For the most part, trust is a given from me. But trust betrayed, must be earned in order to be restored. That means repentance, and restoration. If one is truely sorry, they will want to make up for the wrong they have done. They have to understand that they have trespassed into my garden, and the gate is closed until they learn to stay on the paths, and quit stomping the flowers. In the mean time, I must also weed out grudges, and unforgiveness, as these are taking up space where God could be planting blessings. You are God's husbandtry. We are co-laborers with Him in the gardens of our lives. We may never be able to open the gate to those who have tresspassed against it. But we don't need to let the weeds of past wrongs steal the harvest of God's rights. It behooves us to think about the mis behavior we may have done in anothers garden. There might be a few garden gates we need to knock on.

reply from: Faramir

No hate, just the truth. Don't really care for those who try to piggy back on someone elses hard work. Like I said, my posts do not need the clarification of a baby killer.
What a hateful thing to say, and what a contradiction of what this thread is about.
I don't think it is a contradiction, because we haven't all agreed about what forgiveness is. Some say that we must forgive. I disagree. I don't think that people who continue to do evil deserve forgiveness.
The hateful comment was directed at Carole. Are you insinuating that she is "continuning to do evil"?

reply from: sander

Imagine thinking that relating the thread to abortion on a PRO-LIFE website is contratictory! What?
But, guess if being pro-life isn't the purpose of being here in the first place, then any thinking is possible.

reply from: faithman

No hate, just the truth. Don't really care for those who try to piggy back on someone elses hard work. Like I said, my posts do not need the clarification of a baby killer.
What a hateful thing to say, and what a contradiction of what this thread is about.
I don't think it is a contradiction, because we haven't all agreed about what forgiveness is. Some say that we must forgive. I disagree. I don't think that people who continue to do evil deserve forgiveness.
The hateful comment was directed at Carole. Are you insinuating that she is "continuning to do evil"?
Yes. She is devalueing womb life and justice by saying that she and her killer mom friends would fight personhood tooth and nail if it meant future killer moms went to jail for their part in murdering their children. I would most assuredly call that evil.

reply from: Faramir

Imagine thinking that relating the thread to abortion on a PRO-LIFE website is contratictory! What?
But, guess if being pro-life isn't the purpose of being here in the first place, then any thinking is possible.
I don't know what the heck you're trying to say.
Are you defending faithman calling carolmarie a "baby killer"?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

And in the end they won't receive forgivness when it will matter most....in eternity.
Unrepentant people who continue in their evil ways do not receive forgiveness, ever. They are lost for eternity.
Repentance (quit sinning) and confession of sin are required. If we do these things, we know that He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins. We can have faith that the blood of the once for all Sacrifice covers our sins. We do not need to continually go through the ritual of placing our hands on the head of an animal sacrifice, confessing our sin as our hands are on the animal's head, and then sacrifice the animal who had our sins laid upon his head. Confession and repentance have always been required. The OT says there shall be no sacrifice for the willful deliberate sinner who "presumptously sins with a high hand". The physical OT examples tell us how the Spiritual Sacrifice and forgiveness work. They are shadows of the reality. The NT book Hebrews says there shall be no sacrifice for the person who goes on sinning deliberately, therefore no forgiveness, only a fearful looking forward to of fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.

reply from: AshMarie88

Are we talking about forgiving what is the most evil of all? Or just ANYTHING? I've forgiven people for little in-the-past incidences, but those were so small compared to other things.
I'm not one of those people that finds it easy to forgive, and doesn't forgive anyone unless I have it in my heart. Sad but true.
Big instance, the day my momma told me she was regretful but aborted about 27 years ago, I forgave her. And somehow found it in my heart to silently forgive my dad for ever coercing her into the decision. I hate coercion and abortion, but could forgive.
It almost tests who and what you can forgive. That's just an example.

reply from: faithman

Imagine thinking that relating the thread to abortion on a PRO-LIFE website is contratictory! What?
But, guess if being pro-life isn't the purpose of being here in the first place, then any thinking is possible.
I don't know what the heck you're trying to say.
Are you defending faithman calling carolmarie a "baby killer"?
Why does the truth need defending? I would say the slaughter of 3 assured her that monacer.

reply from: faithman

We make forgiveness availiable to others, but repentance on their part is required for it to be exstended. Our lives are like a garden. When folks come in and stomp on the flowers, we don't let them back in the garden until they learn maners. Luke 17:1-3 gives us that concept. But we need to have already forgiven them in our heart, so we don't incur the bad effects of it. What I am talking about is imposible for us to do in our own strengeth. Our time on earth is best spent being a witness for Him. We always fail in our own strength. We always win when we surrender to Him, and inhabit the victory He won for us at the cross. There are people that I do not allow in my life because of the things they have done to me. But the gift of forgiveness waits on them at my garden gate. "I am sorry" is the pass word. But thru Christ, I bear them no ill will. I pray for them, and I pray the Lord protects others from their toxic personalities. For the most part, trust is a given from me. But trust betrayed, must be earned in order to be restored. That means repentance, and restoration. If one is truely sorry, they will want to make up for the wrong they have done. They have to understand that they have trespassed into my garden, and the gate is closed until they learn to stay on the paths, and quit stomping the flowers. In the mean time, I must also weed out grudges, and unforgiveness, as these are taking up space where God could be planting blessings. You are God's husbandtry. We are co-laborers with Him in the gardens of our lives. We may never be able to open the gate to those who have tresspassed against it. But we don't need to let the weeds of past wrongs steal the harvest of God's rights. It behooves us to think about the mis behavior we may have done in anothers garden. There might be a few garden gates we need to knock on.

reply from: sander

And in the end they won't receive forgivness when it will matter most....in eternity.
Unrepentant people who continue in their evil ways do not receive forgiveness, ever. They are lost for eternity.
Repentance (quit sinning) and confession of sin are required. If we do these things, we know that He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins. We can have faith that the blood of the once for all Sacrifice covers our sins. We do not need to continually go through the ritual of placing our hands on the head of an animal sacrifice, confessing our sin as our hands are on the animal's head, and then sacrifice the animal who had our sins laid upon his head. Confession and repentance have always been required. The OT says there shall be no sacrifice for the willful deliberate sinner who "presumptously sins with a high hand". The physical OT examples tell us how the Spiritual Sacrifice and forgiveness work. They are shadows of the reality. The NT book Hebrews says there shall be no sacrifice for the person who goes on sinning deliberately, therefore no forgiveness, only a fearful looking forward to of fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
This is the type of forgivness that is between God and man and can't be refuted.
However, we as mere humans are instructed to forgive others (humans) their trespasses as we are forgiven ours.
"And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

reply from: sander

Imagine thinking that relating the thread to abortion on a PRO-LIFE website is contratictory! What?
But, guess if being pro-life isn't the purpose of being here in the first place, then any thinking is possible.
I don't know what the heck you're trying to say.
Are you defending faithman calling carolmarie a "baby killer"?
It's not contratictory to relate the subject of any thread to abortion on a PRO-LIFE website.
What's "the heck hard" to understand about that?

reply from: Faramir

Imagine thinking that relating the thread to abortion on a PRO-LIFE website is contratictory! What?
But, guess if being pro-life isn't the purpose of being here in the first place, then any thinking is possible.
I don't know what the heck you're trying to say.
Are you defending faithman calling carolmarie a "baby killer"?
It's not contratictory to relate the subject of any thread to abortion on a PRO-LIFE website.
What's "the heck hard" to understand about that?
That is not what happened.
Carolemarie made a point about forgiveness and Faithman used it as an excuse to once again verbally molest her. It had nothing to do with the topic, and was simply another personal attack, and it's disgusting.

reply from: sander

You're such a waste on a pro-life website. I might take something you said seriously if you ever tried to defeat a proabort argument.
Your self agggrandizing has become so monotonous.

reply from: faithman

Imagine thinking that relating the thread to abortion on a PRO-LIFE website is contratictory! What?
But, guess if being pro-life isn't the purpose of being here in the first place, then any thinking is possible.
I don't know what the heck you're trying to say.
Are you defending faithman calling carolmarie a "baby killer"?
It's not contratictory to relate the subject of any thread to abortion on a PRO-LIFE website.
What's "the heck hard" to understand about that?
That is not what happened.
Carolemarie made a point about forgiveness and Faithman used it as an excuse to once again verbally molest her. It had nothing to do with the topic, and was simply another personal attack, and it's disgusting.
Well we can always trust you to take up the cause of a baby killer, now can't we? I find that a hundred times more disgusting and a molestation of fact.

reply from: Faramir

You're such a waste on a pro-life website. I might take something you said seriously if you ever tried to defeat a proabort argument.
Your self agggrandizing has become so monotonous.
I figured you'd defend the verbal molestor.
It's not prolife to attack another prolifer, especially a repentant post abortive woman, and that's what your buddy has been wasting his time doing on many posts, and you're pefectly fine with it.
And I have taken prolife positions here against prochoice positions, and I've called a fetus a baby a number of times, but you and Yoda won't remove the sticks from your butts and prefer to mischaracterize my position at every turn.

reply from: sander

You become more vile as time goes on.
You're no more a defender of the unborn than another other proabort, it's just they have the honesty and courage enough to admit it.
Monotonous is still the most apt description of your posts, no matter how much you live in denial.

reply from: Faramir

You become more vile as time goes on.
You're no more a defender of the unborn than another other proabort, it's just they have the honesty and courage enough to admit it.
Monotonous is still the most apt description of your posts, no matter how much you live in denial.
You should be ashamed of yourself for giving approval of the horrible verbal abuse that goes on here.
Call me "vile" all you want, but you approve of the most vile behavior I've ever seen on a board.

reply from: faithman

You become more vile as time goes on.
You're no more a defender of the unborn than another other proabort, it's just they have the honesty and courage enough to admit it.
Monotonous is still the most apt description of your posts, no matter how much you live in denial.
You should be ashamed of yourself for giving approval of the horrible verbal abuse that goes on here.
Call me "vile" all you want, but you approve of the most vile behavior I've ever seen on a board.
Snivel snivel boo hoo. god forbid that we should accurately identify those who distroyed their own womb childrren. What is vile is your constant defence of the same.

reply from: cracrat

Faramir doesn't defend abortion or those who would carry it out. He is simply trying to bring a level of maturity to the discussions that go on here.
Is the name calling and character assassination just a diversionary tactic from the fact that most of you couldn't conduct a reasoned debate with a child?

reply from: faithman

Faramir doesn't defend abortion or those who would carry it out. He is simply trying to bring a level of maturity to the discussions that go on here.
Is the name calling and character assassination just a diversionary tactic from the fact that most of you couldn't conduct a reasoned debate with a child?
I have said many times, that I am not here to debate anyone. I am here to give out free information, and kick crap out of proaborts. Seems to me even a child could see the direct conection to humanism and planned Parenthood. Something your wise self sure missed, now didn't you?

reply from: Faramir

Faramir doesn't defend abortion or those who would carry it out. He is simply trying to bring a level of maturity to the discussions that go on here.
Is the name calling and character assassination just a diversionary tactic from the fact that most of you couldn't conduct a reasoned debate with a child?
I have said many times, that I am not here to debate anyone. I am here to give out free information, and kick crap out of proaborts. Seems to me even a child could see the direct conection to humanism and planned Parenthood. Something your wise self sure missed, now didn't you?
This was a thread about forgiveness and you didn't allow Carolemarie to make a statement about forvigeness without calling her a "baby killer."
Sure you've got Sander supporting this, but I think many of us see it as very repulsive, and doing nothing to defend babies or support the prolife position.
It's just you and your ego.

reply from: nancyu

I believe that Jesus asks us to be willing to forgive, not that we MUST forgive.
The Limits of Forgiveness
By Jimmy Akin
"...We aren't obligated to forgive people who do not want us to. This is one of the biggest stumbling blocks that people have regarding the topic. People have seen "unconditional" forgiveness and love hammered so often that they feel obligated to forgive someone even before that person has repented. Sometimes they even tell the unrepentant that they have preemptively forgiven him (much to the impenitent's annoyance).
This is not what is required of us.
Consider Luke 17:3 - 4, where Jesus tells us, "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."
Notice that Jesus says to forgive him if he repents, not regardless of whether he does so. Jesus also envisions the person coming back to you and admitting his wrong.
The upshot? If someone isn't repentant, you don't have to forgive him.
If you do forgive him anyway, that can be meritorious, provided it doesn't otherwise have bad effects (e.g., encouraging future bad behavior). But it isn't required of us that we forgive the person.
This may strike some people as odd. They may have heard unconditional love and forgiveness preached so often that the idea of not indiscriminately forgiving everybody sounds unspiritual to them. They might even ask, "But wouldn't it be more spiritual to forgive everyone?..."
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0309bt.asp

reply from: nancyu

Faramir doesn't defend abortion or those who would carry it out. He is simply trying to bring a level of maturity to the discussions that go on here.
Is the name calling and character assassination just a diversionary tactic from the fact that most of you couldn't conduct a reasoned debate with a child?
I have said many times, that I am not here to debate anyone. I am here to give out free information, and kick crap out of proaborts. Seems to me even a child could see the direct conection to humanism and planned Parenthood. Something your wise self sure missed, now didn't you?
This was a thread about forgiveness and you didn't allow Carolemarie to make a statement about forvigeness without calling her a "baby killer."
Sure you've got Sander supporting this, but I think many of us see it as very repulsive, and doing nothing to defend babies or support the prolife position.
It's just you and your ego.
This has everything to do with forgiveness, or lack thereof. Carol Marie appears to be repentent yet she would allow the slaughter to continue by fighting to keep abortion legal. She would like us to simply forgive her, and stop calling her names (how cruel we are to do so!) But it takes a little more than her calling herself prolife for me to forgive what she has done and continues to defend.

reply from: cracrat

Ok, so some members of the Planned Parenthood hierarchy won the Humanist of the Year and others signed the manifesto. A whole lot of people who have nothing to do with PP have won that award as well. Albert Einstien was on that list of scientists who believed in the Christian God you posted but also served on the advisory board to the First Humanist Society of New York - does that make Christianity an extenision of humanism? Pope Pius XII was arguably complicit in the Holocaust through his silence - does that make all Catholics Nazis? President Bush is a Born Again Christian who is directly or indirectly responsible for the death of over 655000 Iraqis - should all Born Again Christians be tarred with that brush?
The answer to all these questions is quite clearly no. People being members of, or associated with, different groups or organisations does not necessarily mean that those groups are linked either tangibly or through their ideologies. Only a simpleton with too much hate and anger seeks such connections as a justification for their hate or security blanket for their own weakness.

reply from: Faramir

That's interesting Nancy. I've listened to Jimmy Aiken a few times and he has good stuff to say. I've never heard of this.
At any rate, my point had been about using this thread as an excuse to attack someone out of the blue.
Forgiveness is a good thing and the waters were muddied by verbal abuse against someone who was merely participating in the discussion, and the personal attack had zero to do with this topic.

reply from: faithman

Says you. Not everyone agrees.

reply from: faithman

We make forgiveness availiable to others, but repentance on their part is required for it to be exstended. Our lives are like a garden. When folks come in and stomp on the flowers, we don't let them back in the garden until they learn maners. Luke 17:1-3 gives us that concept. But we need to have already forgiven them in our heart, so we don't incur the bad effects of it. What I am talking about is imposible for us to do in our own strengeth. Our time on earth is best spent being a witness for Him. We always fail in our own strength. We always win when we surrender to Him, and inhabit the victory He won for us at the cross. There are people that I do not allow in my life because of the things they have done to me. But the gift of forgiveness waits on them at my garden gate. "I am sorry" is the pass word. But thru Christ, I bear them no ill will. I pray for them, and I pray the Lord protects others from their toxic personalities. For the most part, trust is a given from me. But trust betrayed, must be earned in order to be restored. That means repentance, and restoration. If one is truely sorry, they will want to make up for the wrong they have done. They have to understand that they have trespassed into my garden, and the gate is closed until they learn to stay on the paths, and quit stomping the flowers. In the mean time, I must also weed out grudges, and unforgiveness, as these are taking up space where God could be planting blessings. You are God's husbandtry. We are co-laborers with Him in the gardens of our lives. We may never be able to open the gate to those who have tresspassed against it. But we don't need to let the weeds of past wrongs steal the harvest of God's rights. It behooves us to think about the mis behavior we may have done in anothers garden. There might be a few garden gates we need to knock on.

reply from: faithman

Ok, so some members of the Planned Parenthood hierarchy won the Humanist of the Year and others signed the manifesto. A whole lot of people who have nothing to do with PP have won that award as well. Albert Einstien was on that list of scientists who believed in the Christian God you posted but also served on the advisory board to the First Humanist Society of New York - does that make Christianity an extenision of humanism? Pope Pius XII was arguably complicit in the Holocaust through his silence - does that make all Catholics Nazis? President Bush is a Born Again Christian who is directly or indirectly responsible for the death of over 655000 Iraqis - should all Born Again Christians be tarred with that brush?
The answer to all these questions is quite clearly no. People being members of, or associated with, different groups or organisations does not necessarily mean that those groups are linked either tangibly or through their ideologies. Only a simpleton with too much hate and anger seeks such connections as a justification for their hate or security blanket for their own weakness.
The problem you have is, that they are linked tangibly, and ideologies are exactly the same. Planned Parenthood is an arm of secular humanism plan and simple.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I agree with you Nancy. But, I am one who already disagrees with nearly everything that evangelical and Catholic "Christians" have had hammered into their head for years. Over and over these "Christians" hear the same message. Hitler said that if you tell a lie long enough and often enough it becomes the "truth". It seems fruitless to disagree with positions that these "Christians" have heard and believed for years.

reply from: Banned Member

I think that people are afraid of forgiveness, that is, they are afraid to forgive. I think that they believe this to mean that their hurt, and anger have not been addressed and that if they forgive, they have given the offender a free pass and condone what they have done.
That is not what forgiveness is. We forgive despite the offender, and their actions, because we need to forgive. In fact to forgive validates that you have been offended and have been hurt and that you need to make known that the offense is not in control of you. Forgiveness, aside from from being spiritually and emotionally healthy, is empowering.
Forgiving in that regard does not mean that you allow or that another is entitled to offend again. Sometimes we must break away from the one who has offended us, and not allow that person near us, to hurt us again.
It is a bold and brave action to forgive.

reply from: nancyu

Says you. Not everyone agrees.
Including me. I don't have a problem with name calling, when there is a reason for it, and it isn't "out of the blue" CarolMarie deserves the attack, and maybe it will wake her up the fact that a few pious sounding words won't fool us all into thinking she is repentant.

reply from: faithman

Faramir doesn't defend abortion or those who would carry it out. He is simply trying to bring a level of maturity to the discussions that go on here.
Is the name calling and character assassination just a diversionary tactic from the fact that most of you couldn't conduct a reasoned debate with a child?
I have said many times, that I am not here to debate anyone. I am here to give out free information, and kick crap out of proaborts. Seems to me even a child could see the direct conection to humanism and planned Parenthood. Something your wise self sure missed, now didn't you?
This was a thread about forgiveness and you didn't allow Carolemarie to make a statement about forvigeness without calling her a "baby killer."
Sure you've got Sander supporting this, but I think many of us see it as very repulsive, and doing nothing to defend babies or support the prolife position.
It's just you and your ego.
This has everything to do with forgiveness, or lack thereof. Carol Marie appears to be repentent yet she would allow the slaughter to continue by fighting to keep abortion legal. She would like us to simply forgive her, and stop calling her names (how cruel we are to do so!) But it takes a little more than her calling herself prolife for me to forgive what she has done and continues to defend.
Thank you! My point exactly. True repentance means you turn completely away from the evil you have done. That does not include advocating freedom to future killer moms on the basis of perverted mercy. She was trying to slip under the wire here, and strengthen her position by demanding we forgive without repentance, or justice for the inocent. I will never let that one sneak thru, not matter how many get the panties in a wod over it.

reply from: cracrat

Nobody deserves to be attacked. Disgree with the, argue with them, attack their position all you want. But to attack the person is the act of a brute with nothing to them but their fists, physical or verbal.

reply from: Faramir

Says you. Not everyone agrees.
Including me. I don't have a problem with name calling, when there is a reason for it, and it isn't "out of the blue" CarolMarie deserves the attack, and maybe it will wake her up the fact that a few pious sounding words won't fool us all into thinking she is repentant.
It was most definately out of the blue and entirely irrelevant to this discussion.
It's not really your business whether she is repentant, but you ought to be charitible enough to give her the benefit of the doubt.
You are approving of this person being abused and being branded as a "killer."
I have not seen this level of meanness on boards except from certain prochoicers.
I'm stunned.

reply from: sander

Ha ha, you are funny, in a sick, sad way, that is.
YOU put words in MY mouth and I'M the one who should be ashamed!
Gads, you're daft.
I merely defended his right to turn the thread back to the orginial intent of the website. They say it's never to late to learn, try taking a reading comprehension class, it'll do you and those of us who must suffer thru your monotonous posts a favor.
Thanks I will. Which is alot nicer than saying I have a stick somewhere you have no right to mention.
See, the above, reading it twice might help.
And you think what is posted on girlnation and others like it are better than this board? I'm not surprised. You do love to hear the proabort argument made.

reply from: Faramir

That's a crock.
Calling someone a "baby killer" is not bringing up "the topic."
You defended his verbal abuse.
You are as cruel as faithman if you can't separate yourself from that kind of abuse and instead approve of it.

reply from: nancyu

Oh you poor dear verbally abused people, Go call CPS please, maybe they will take you away from here.

reply from: sander

Since I've been accused all ready of defending those who question CM's sincerity, might as well jump in the fray.
The day she sees the mother at least equally as responsible for the death of the child she carries is the day I'll believe she's seen the "light".
The mother is the very one who walks her child into the killing fields, and where that gets a pass from man or God is beyond my understanding.

reply from: cracrat

The Humanist Manifestos posted elsewhere spoke of a belief that all people should have the opportunity to maximise their potential, to live in a world free of poverty and hunger, where technology helps everyone and not just the few, that we must rely on ourselves to save ourselves and not some supernatural being, learning and advancement through critical evaluation, opposition to that which would denigrate a person rights and opportunities, opposition to war as a way of resolving international disputes, civil liberties, inclusive democracy at all levels, change in economic structures so that people and not the dollar are at its centre, elimination of dicrimination or all forms, universal education, a coming together of peoples into a single world community and much more.
PP is a company that provides abortion on demand for a fee.
The one is nothing to do with the other.

reply from: sander

Now, there's some wishful thinking.
Egos are hard to supress, I think it's going to take more than CPS to help.

reply from: Faramir

Since I've been accused all ready of defending those who question CM's sincerity, might as well jump in the fray.
The day she sees the mother at least equally as responsible for the death of the child she carries is the day I'll believe she's seen the "light".
The mother is the very one who walks her child into the killing fields, and where that gets a pass from man or God is beyond my understanding.
And until she "sees the light" to your satisfaction, she deserves to be called a "killer" in every other post. Am I right?

reply from: sander

That's a crock.
Calling someone a "baby killer" is not bringing up "the topic."
You defended his verbal abuse.
You are as cruel as faithman if you can't separate yourself from that kind of abuse and instead approve of it.
We're making your day, admit it.
You wouldn't have a thing to post about if there wasn't a prolifer around to kick.
You're one pathetic, poor excuse for a prolifer.

reply from: sander

Since I've been accused all ready of defending those who question CM's sincerity, might as well jump in the fray.
The day she sees the mother at least equally as responsible for the death of the child she carries is the day I'll believe she's seen the "light".
The mother is the very one who walks her child into the killing fields, and where that gets a pass from man or God is beyond my understanding.
And until she "sees the light" to your satisfaction, she deserves to be called a "killer" in every other post. Am I right?
I think they have reading comprehension classes on line, check them out.
Just go back, slowly if necessary and re-read what I wrote...turn your eyes up, I included what I orginally said for your convience.

reply from: Teresa18

Why did this nice discussion have to revert to an attack on CaroleMarie? She has sought the Lord's forgiveness and is sorry for abortion. Her disagreement is regarding punishing the woman. I don't agree with punishing the woman either, but I do support personhood initiatives becasue they are one of the best ways to end abortions. I don't think they necessarily mean women will be punished. Carole does want abortion ended and has worked tirelessly outside the clinic to save children. This thread is about forgiveness. Forgive her, put your differences aside, and work to end abortion. We all want it illegal; we just have different ways of going about it.

reply from: nancyu

Since I've been accused all ready of defending those who question CM's sincerity, might as well jump in the fray.
The day she sees the mother at least equally as responsible for the death of the child she carries is the day I'll believe she's seen the "light".
The mother is the very one who walks her child into the killing fields, and where that gets a pass from man or God is beyond my understanding.
And until she "sees the light" to your satisfaction, she deserves to be called a "killer" in every other post. Am I right?
How about every post.

reply from: cracrat

The hilarious thing is that in opposing punishment for women who receive abortion CarolMarie is more or less quoting one of Mark's answers from the front page. Allow me to quote:
If abortion is illegal, what should the penalty be for a woman who has one?
Laws prohibiting abortion target the abortionist, not the woman. This is evidenced by the fact that, before Roe v. Wade, American women were never indicted for having illegal abortions. For several pragmatic reasons, that same approach should be adopted when abortion is again illegal.
First, except in the extremely unlikely event that a woman is actually caught in the act of having an illegal abortion, a conviction would be virtually impossible.
Second, the woman is the best source of information needed to bring charges against the abortionist. If she also faced prosecution, she would not cooperate with the authorities, thus keeping them from getting the evidence needed to convict the abortionist. That would leave him free to kill again.
This doesn't excuse the woman for having participated in an illegal act which took the life of her child. It simply recognizes that the public interest is best served by removing the abortionist from society, and that legal sanctions against the woman would reduce the chances of that happening. It's no different than the authorities giving immunity to a small-time drug user in exchange for information on a big-time drug dealer.
Remember, the goal of the pro-life movement is to stop abortion. Imprisoning a woman who had an illegal abortion would prevent nothing since her child is already dead. However, imprisoning the abortionist might save thousands of babies in the future.
The point is, jail is exactly where every abortionist deserves to be. If giving women a pass on prosecution is the best way to make that happen, that is a deal worth making. As for the pro-life movement, we just don't know of a practical incentive for jailing women who submit to abortions. The really odd thing is, it always seems to be someone from the pro-choice crowd who argues that they should be. So I have a suggestion. If these people think it's unfair for abortionists to go to jail but not their customers, they need to be the ones lobbying for legislation to put women in jail.
Is Mark wrong too?

reply from: faithman

Nobody deserves to be attacked. Disgree with the, argue with them, attack their position all you want. But to attack the person is the act of a brute with nothing to them but their fists, physical or verbal.
The "brute" is the one who brutally killed three womb children. The "brute" is the one who promises that her and her fellow baby killers will fight personhood for the womb child, if that means future killer mom's would go to jail for murdering their children. The "brute" is the one who thinks they can slide in under the wire to demand that we must "forgive" and forget about justice for the innocent.

reply from: sander

Someone explain this to me, I really can't connect the dots on why the mother should get a pass?
How is that reasonable or speaks to the justice God has defined?

reply from: cracrat

Nobody deserves to be attacked. Disgree with the, argue with them, attack their position all you want. But to attack the person is the act of a brute with nothing to them but their fists, physical or verbal.
The "brute" is the one who brutally killed three womb children. The "brute" is the one who promises that her and her fellow baby killers will fight personhood for the womb child, if that means future killer mom's would go to jail for murdering their children. The "brute" is the one who thinks they can slide in under the wire to demand that we must "forgive" and forget about justice for the innocent.
If she is repentant and has paid penance then in the eyes of your Lord she is forgiven. Who are you to maintain some kind of witch hunt against her?

reply from: Faramir

Someone explain this to me, I really can't connect the dots on why the mother should get a pass?
How is that reasonable or speaks to the justice God has defined?
And until you "connect the dots," that gives you and your pal the right to call a fellow prolifer a "baby killer." Right?

reply from: sander

Someone explain this to me, I really can't connect the dots on why the mother should get a pass?
How is that reasonable or speaks to the justice God has defined?
And until you "connect the dots," that gives you and your pal the right to call a fellow prolifer a "baby killer." Right?
I'm in a good mood, so I'll "indulge" your passion to kick around prolifers.
I ASKED for someone to help me understand, but you wouldn't dare address the actual subject. You might come off looking like an understanding indivdual who actually cared about the babies being killed.
So, carry on in your delusions.

reply from: faithman

Someone explain this to me, I really can't connect the dots on why the mother should get a pass?
How is that reasonable or speaks to the justice God has defined?
And until you "connect the dots," that gives you and your pal the right to call a fellow prolifer a "baby killer." Right?
I am openly calling their pro-life stance into question. Anyone who states they would not suport personhood because it would mean muderers would not get a free walk is flawed at the very least. The quickest and most constitutional way to end abortion on demand is to establish personhood. That would not require any new laws, only enforceing the ones already on the books that protect innopcent life. Anyone who would appose this direct remedy because of personal agenda [namely they are a baby killer, and do not want other baby killers to meet justice] are not truely pro-life. When you pervert justice for the womb child in favor of mecy for their killers, you are not pro-life!!!!

reply from: Faramir

If my remarks are falling on deaf ears or don't make any sense, then please consider what Teresa is saying.

reply from: sander

And here I thought you were going to help me connect the dots.
No, you'd rather stay on your crusade. Pity.
Or, is it that there is no way to connect the dots?

reply from: Faramir

I don't know what dots need to be connected.
I don't see why this poor woman deserves the abuse she gets and why so few defend her.

reply from: faithman

I have considered it, and do not agree. Cm slithered into this post and suttlely made the statement that forgiveness precludes us from demanding justice. Your are just simply wrong to deny personhood to the womb child by giving their killers a free walk. That is a totally stupid position for any so called pro-lifer to take. She knew exactly what she was doing and what it would cause when she posted her crap. We have listened to you until our ears bleed, and are still waiting to see you make on post in defence of the womb child, insted of attacking those who do. Giving killer moms a free walk is based on emotion, not common sence, justice, or a real pro-life position.

reply from: sander

Apparently because you either didn't try, or there aren't any to connect.
Where is it written that the mother who walks her child into the killing fields, lays down and allows an abortionist to rip her child to shreds gets a pass on judgment?
Where?
Because the vast majority of pro-lifers are here to defend the babies, you know...the ones who CANNOT speak for themselves.
And as long as she will fight, with everything she has, to keep the child in the womb from receiving personhood, her prolife stance is weak, at best.

reply from: faithman

Since I've been accused all ready of defending those who question CM's sincerity, might as well jump in the fray.
The day she sees the mother at least equally as responsible for the death of the child she carries is the day I'll believe she's seen the "light".
The mother is the very one who walks her child into the killing fields, and where that gets a pass from man or God is beyond my understanding.
And until she "sees the light" to your satisfaction, she deserves to be called a "killer" in every other post. Am I right?
How about every post.
We could take turns!!! CM is a baby killer!!!

reply from: Faramir

Apparently because you either didn't try, or there aren't any to connect.
Where is it written that the mother who walks her child into the killing fields, lays down and allows an abortionist to rip her child to shreds gets a pass on judgment?
Where?
Because the vast majority of pro-lifers are here to defend the babies, you know...the ones who CANNOT speak for themselves.
And as long as she will fight, with everything she has, to keep the child in the womb from receiving personhood, her prolife stance is weak, at best.
I don't see why you're not looking at the positive.
She's prolife and regrets her abortions.
I don't agree with everything she says either, but that doesn't give me the right to be abusive and call her a baby killer, and it's no skin off your nose and doesn't kill any babies for you to show an ounce of compassion for her.

reply from: faithman

Apparently because you either didn't try, or there aren't any to connect.
Where is it written that the mother who walks her child into the killing fields, lays down and allows an abortionist to rip her child to shreds gets a pass on judgment?
Where?
Because the vast majority of pro-lifers are here to defend the babies, you know...the ones who CANNOT speak for themselves.
And as long as she will fight, with everything she has, to keep the child in the womb from receiving personhood, her prolife stance is weak, at best.
I don't see why you're not looking at the positive.
She's prolife and regrets her abortions.
I don't agree with everything she says either, but that doesn't give me the right to be abusive and call her a baby killer, and it's no skin off your nose and doesn't kill any babies for you to show an ounce of compassion for her.
We are showing the same compassion she had for three of her womb children.

reply from: sander

How about the "skin" off the nose of the babies?
That's where we differ the most. I'm much more interested in the children who are being slaughtered than I am in any prolifer who refuses to see the role the mother plays.
For crying out loud, if NOT for the mother, the abortionist goes out of business but quick.
I'm here to try and defeat the proabort arguments, first and foremost. And if part of that argument contains a prolifer's views, then everyone just needs to get over it.
Because I'm going to defend the babies first everytime.
You don't see me arguing with Teresa, even though she agrees with CM for the most part. But, she would not lift a finger, never mind fight it with all her might, the right for the unborn to recieve personhood.
And if that's too far over your head to grasp, then I don't know what else on earth I can say.

reply from: Faramir

How about the "skin" off the nose of the babies?
That's where we differ the most. I'm much more interested in the children who are being slaughtered than I am in any prolifer who refuses to see the role the mother plays.
For crying out loud, if NOT for the mother, the abortionist goes out of business but quick.
I'm here to try and defeat the proabort arguments, first and foremost. And if part of that argument contains a prolifer's views, then everyone just needs to get over it.
Because I'm going to defend the babies first everytime.
You don't see me arguing with Teresa, even though she agrees with CM for the most part. But, she would not lift a finger, never mind fight it with all her might, the right for the unborn to recieve personhood.
And if that's too far over your head to grasp, then I don't know what else on earth I can say.
Are you in agreement with faithman continually calling carolemarie a "baby killer"?

reply from: faithman

How about the "skin" off the nose of the babies?
That's where we differ the most. I'm much more interested in the children who are being slaughtered than I am in any prolifer who refuses to see the role the mother plays.
For crying out loud, if NOT for the mother, the abortionist goes out of business but quick.
I'm here to try and defeat the proabort arguments, first and foremost. And if part of that argument contains a prolifer's views, then everyone just needs to get over it.
Because I'm going to defend the babies first everytime.
You don't see me arguing with Teresa, even though she agrees with CM for the most part. But, she would not lift a finger, never mind fight it with all her might, the right for the unborn to recieve personhood.
And if that's too far over your head to grasp, then I don't know what else on earth I can say.
Talk about deaf ears!!! And willingly so I might add.

reply from: sander

How about the "skin" off the nose of the babies?
That's where we differ the most. I'm much more interested in the children who are being slaughtered than I am in any prolifer who refuses to see the role the mother plays.
For crying out loud, if NOT for the mother, the abortionist goes out of business but quick.
I'm here to try and defeat the proabort arguments, first and foremost. And if part of that argument contains a prolifer's views, then everyone just needs to get over it.
Because I'm going to defend the babies first everytime.
You don't see me arguing with Teresa, even though she agrees with CM for the most part. But, she would not lift a finger, never mind fight it with all her might, the right for the unborn to recieve personhood.
And if that's too far over your head to grasp, then I don't know what else on earth I can say.
Talk about deaf ears!!! And willingly so I might add.
I'm speechless...well, sort of!
I just blankey blank give up.
He's MORE than deaf, he's got to be daft to boot!
I've said what I meant a dozen times and I'm not going to "indulge" this one anymore.
He'll have to pay me...LOL! Sorry, couldn't resist.

reply from: cracrat

Come on somebody, is Mark Crutcher wrong too?

reply from: Faramir

It's not about saving babies when they get their jollies at Carolemarie's expense.
It's about self-righteousness and their own fat egos, and it's pretty darn disgusting.

reply from: faithman

Come on somebody, is Mark Crutcher wrong too?
In this case, he most assuredly is. If we do not demand equal justice for the born as well as the preborn, it undermines advocacy for womb life. You simply can not have it both ways. If the preborn are equal in stature to the born, then their killers deserve the same justice as a jury of 12 citizens determanes. All of this will be the case if a LIFE AT CONCEPTION ACT is passed. An act CM said she would fight tooth and nail, along with the killa sistas, if it meant future killer moms would not get the free skate from justice she did. She is just fortunate that the government sactioned wombchild murder when she killed 3. But it is a complete denial of mercy for the womb child, to give their killers a free walk from justice.

reply from: yoda

IMO, on this issue he is.

reply from: faithman

And you get your jollies defending baby killers insted of the womb babies. OOOPPPS shouldn't have used the word babies now should I?

reply from: nancyu

And you get your jollies defending baby killers insted of the womb babies. OOOPPPS shouldn't have used the word babies now should I?

reply from: Faramir

And you get your jollies defending baby killers insted of the womb babies. OOOPPPS shouldn't have used the word babies now should I?
It looks like you've totally bought Yodavater's lie, which proves the point about the saying about repeating a lie often enough...
I have no issue with you using the word baby, and I admire you if you defend babies in the womb, but I do not admire you using that as an excuse to harrass and demean someone in a delicate state, who also opposes abortion.

reply from: nancyu

That is what I heard, but I also heard a rumor (is it true?) that you are against making abortion illegal?

reply from: faithman

No, you are pro baby killer, and deny mercy and justice for the womb child in favor of special consideration for your sister killer moms. That is not a pro-life position no matter how many times you try to float that boat past us.

reply from: faithman

If it means killer mom goes to jail, yes, she has point blank stated that. How can one claim to be "prolife" when they advocate an unequal justice for the womb child? Let me give you a hint, they can not!!!

reply from: galen

back on forgiveness....
Nancyu, i was one told this by a wise person. picture the person you are trying to forgive as an infant... totally blameless. and forgive the infant, not the behaviour of the person the infant will become.

reply from: nancyu

hmmm, I might have to think about that one for a while.

reply from: nancyu

Spoken like someone who is hoping to be forgiven.

reply from: AshMarie88

If it means killer mom goes to jail, yes, she has point blank stated that. How can one claim to be "prolife" when they advocate an unequal justice for the womb child? Let me give you a hint, they can not!!!
Just because someone is regretfully post-abortive, doesn't mean they are not pro-life. ESPECIALLY when they regret their decision.
Stop being an idiot.

reply from: teddybearhamster

[Just because someone is regretfully post-abortive, doesn't mean they are not pro-life. ESPECIALLY when they regret their decision.
q]
i wanted to cry when i read some of the testimonies of sorrow and regret women have gone through because of this horrible money making scheme called abortion.

reply from: faithman

If it means killer mom goes to jail, yes, she has point blank stated that. How can one claim to be "prolife" when they advocate an unequal justice for the womb child? Let me give you a hint, they can not!!!
Just because someone is regretfully post-abortive, doesn't mean they are not pro-life. ESPECIALLY when they regret their decision.
Stop being an idiot.
You are the idiot and refuse to look past your emotions at the truth of what she says. She point blank says she is against murderers of the preborn child meat the same justice as the born child. She has also said she would fight any atempt at establishing person hood if that meant killer mom didn't get a free walk. She is not regretfully postabortive, she is pro-postabortive, and places that aggenda over the interest of the womb child. If you cant see that, you are just plain stupid and willingly blind.

reply from: carolemarie

I think we are suppose to forgive no matter if they are sorry or repent or not.
Forgiveness is a response to letting go of your right to be hurt/angry.
Their repentence isn't part of it. That is an extra blessing if they are sorry, but even if they are happy they did it and glad you are suffering, you still have to forgive....it isn't an option. You were forgiven and told to forgive others.
In case you didn't read my post, that is exactly what I said. I don't think we need the clarification of a baby killer.
think we are making progress here. We make forgiveness availiable to others, but repentance on their part is required for it to be exstended.
That is the line I was responding to. I think that is incorrect. I think we have to forgive them even if they are not sorry.

reply from: nancyu

I think we are suppose to forgive no matter if they are sorry or repent or not.
Forgiveness is a response to letting go of your right to be hurt/angry.
Their repentence isn't part of it. That is an extra blessing if they are sorry, but even if they are happy they did it and glad you are suffering, you still have to forgive....it isn't an option. You were forgiven and told to forgive others.
In case you didn't read my post, that is exactly what I said. I don't think we need the clarification of a baby killer.
think we are making progress here. We make forgiveness availiable to others, but repentance on their part is required for it to be exstended.
That is the line I was responding to. I think that is incorrect. I think we have to forgive them even if they are not sorry.
Well, I don't.

reply from: faithman

I think we are suppose to forgive no matter if they are sorry or repent or not.
Forgiveness is a response to letting go of your right to be hurt/angry.
Their repentence isn't part of it. That is an extra blessing if they are sorry, but even if they are happy they did it and glad you are suffering, you still have to forgive....it isn't an option. You were forgiven and told to forgive others.
In case you didn't read my post, that is exactly what I said. I don't think we need the clarification of a baby killer.
think we are making progress here. We make forgiveness availiable to others, but repentance on their part is required for it to be exstended.
That is the line I was responding to. I think that is incorrect. I think we have to forgive them even if they are not sorry.
And that would make you scripturally wrong...........Luk 17:1 ¶ Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come!
Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. ...... and by the way, little one in this scripture means fetus in latin. But of course you never let God's word get in the way of your false theology, now do you?

reply from: Faramir

Wow, Faithman, you sure don't have a problem playing fast and loose with theology, logic, and God's Word.
You'll do anything to put someone else down, huh?

reply from: Teresa18

CaroleMarie is pro-life, Nancy. She has repented since her abortions. She works as a counselor outside the clinic trying to persuade pregnant women to preserve the life of their children. She wants abortion illegal. She just doesn't think personhood legislation is the best way to go about it.
I wish we could drop this argument here and realize our common goal is to end abortion. That's what matters.

reply from: faithman

And carole marie will ignore it all together to promote baby killing. And you are stupid enough to defend her.

reply from: Faramir

If it means killer mom goes to jail, yes, she has point blank stated that. How can one claim to be "prolife" when they advocate an unequal justice for the womb child? Let me give you a hint, they can not!!!
Just because someone is regretfully post-abortive, doesn't mean they are not pro-life. ESPECIALLY when they regret their decision.
Stop being an idiot.
You are the idiot and refuse to look past your emotions at the truth of what she says. She point blank says she is against murderers of the preborn child meat the same justice as the born child. She has also said she would fight any atempt at establishing person hood if that meant killer mom didn't get a free walk. She is not regretfully postabortive, she is pro-postabortive, and places that aggenda over the interest of the womb child. If you cant see that, you are just plain stupid and willingly blind.
She believes the way many prolifers believe, but you single her out so that you can have an excuse to bully her about her abortions (that she regrets).
I'm not sure if I agree with AshMarie that you are an "idiot." It's possible, but you look more and more like a "hateful b*stard," instead of an idiot, though you could be both.
You abuse others for "the babies." That's the "reason" you're so abusive, so it's ok.
Yay for AshMarie for standing up to bullyman.

reply from: cracrat

No it isn't. The goal of a fair few people here is to bully as many people as possible into their own line of thinking or tip them over the edge trying.
My goal is to stop abortion as far as possible yet I noticed I had another thread directed at me when I got to work this morning. From you no less.

reply from: faithman

And what you need to realize is that we have no common goal with false prolifers like killer carole. Personhood is the goal, for it would put the womb child on equal footing under the constitution and the rule of law. Carole has been proven to be extremely ignorant and/or a blatant lier. I think a little of both. She has openly said she agrees with the abortion industry that a womb child is second in consideration behind killer mom. She is ignorant as to what kind of government we live under. We are not a democracy, we are a constitutional republic. And she point blank ignores the word of God to pervert Bible principals to excuse the three murders she commited, and assure future killers go free. If she continues to post such grievious evil sin against the womb child, then as a true pro-lifer, we have the obligation to confront and rebuke her on it. You don't like it you can ignore it. But we have the right to post the truth, just like she has the right to post her lies.

reply from: faithman

Well then tell us oh wise one. Just what does this scriptures mean? What kind of spin does your pointy hat youth nazi put on it? I take it literally.....Luk 17:1 ¶ Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come! Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him

reply from: cracrat

In that case, isn't CarolMarie trespassing against the unborn? If we take a fundamentalist reading of scripture, as is your want, we should leave it up to the unborn to rebuke her.

reply from: faithman

If it means killer mom goes to jail, yes, she has point blank stated that. How can one claim to be "prolife" when they advocate an unequal justice for the womb child? Let me give you a hint, they can not!!!
Just because someone is regretfully post-abortive, doesn't mean they are not pro-life. ESPECIALLY when they regret their decision.
Stop being an idiot.
You are the idiot and refuse to look past your emotions at the truth of what she says. She point blank says she is against murderers of the preborn child meat the same justice as the born child. She has also said she would fight any atempt at establishing person hood if that meant killer mom didn't get a free walk. She is not regretfully postabortive, she is pro-postabortive, and places that aggenda over the interest of the womb child. If you cant see that, you are just plain stupid and willingly blind.
She believes the way many prolifers believe, but you single her out so that you can have an excuse to bully her about her abortions (that she regrets).
I'm not sure if I agree with AshMarie that you are an "idiot." It's possible, but you look more and more like a "hateful b*stard," instead of an idiot, though you could be both.
You abuse others for "the babies." That's the "reason" you're so abusive, so it's ok.
Yay for AshMarie for standing up to bullyman.
SSSSOOOOO you all believe with carole marie that the womb child is second class to the born, and is second in consideration to the mother's wishes? You agree with the abortion industry as she openly admits too? You would fight personhood for the womb child if it meant killers like her would meet the same justice as killer moms of born children? Just where do you agree with her? that we can ignore the principals of the Bible in favor of our own opinion? Just why do you "feel" so compelled to prop up someone who does more to deminish womb life in word and deed than she ever has to protect children from the likes of her?

reply from: Faramir

Well then tell us oh wise one. Just what does this scriptures mean? What kind of spin does your pointy hat youth nazi put on it? I take it literally.....Luk 17:1 ¶ Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come! Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him
Okay, Faithman, I will take your scripture to heart.
You shouldn't have been calling me disrespectful names.
There's my rebuke.
I will forgive you for your trespasses against me when you repent.

reply from: Faramir

What the heck is this signature supposed to mean nancyu?
CarolMarie does not kill babies.
You have bought into faithman's lies about her.
He is a liar for calling her a killer, besides being cruel and a bully.

reply from: faithman

In that case, isn't CarolMarie trespassing against the unborn? If we take a fundamentalist reading of scripture, as is your want, we should leave it up to the unborn to rebuke her.
And the scripture also says to speak up for those who have no voice. That is the whole foundation of the so called pro-life movement.

reply from: Faramir

In that case, isn't CarolMarie trespassing against the unborn? If we take a fundamentalist reading of scripture, as is your want, we should leave it up to the unborn to rebuke her.
And the scripture also says to speak up for those who have no voice. That is the whole foundation of the so called pro-life movement.
You can do that wonderfully well without bullying postabortive prolife women.

reply from: nancyu

You are the one who has bought into CarolMarie's lies. She doesn't regret what she did, she just regrets what might happen to her because of what she did. Very big difference there.

reply from: carolemarie

That is an outright lie!
I regret my abortions and I have said that repeatedly. How dare you tell me that I am not sorry--you know absolutely nothing about how I feel.

reply from: faithman

In that case, isn't CarolMarie trespassing against the unborn? If we take a fundamentalist reading of scripture, as is your want, we should leave it up to the unborn to rebuke her.
And the scripture also says to speak up for those who have no voice. That is the whole foundation of the so called pro-life movement.
You can do that wonderfully well without bullying postabortive prolife women.
I do not bully post abortive women. You can not make generaly statements like that when there is absolutely no proof of it. This is one person, not all post abortive women. My issue have nothing to do with being post abortive, they have to do with agreeing openly with the abortion industry, fighting against justice for the womb child and perverting, and completely ignoring God's word to promote her false agenda. I have stated these facts over and over again, and will continue to do so as long as you spin things they way you have here.

reply from: faithman

Nor do we really care how a baby killer advocate feels. Particularly when they openly agree with the abortion industry that the 3 you killed are second in consideration to those feelings.

reply from: faithman

Well then tell us oh wise one. Just what does this scriptures mean? What kind of spin does your pointy hat youth nazi put on it? I take it literally.....Luk 17:1 ¶ Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come! Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him
Okay, Faithman, I will take your scripture to heart.
You shouldn't have been calling me disrespectful names.
There's my rebuke.
I will forgive you for your trespasses against me when you repent.
Don't hold your breath. On second thought...

reply from: sander

In that case, isn't CarolMarie trespassing against the unborn? If we take a fundamentalist reading of scripture, as is your want, we should leave it up to the unborn to rebuke her.
And the scripture also says to speak up for those who have no voice. That is the whole foundation of the so called pro-life movement.
Rescue those being led away to death, hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say "But we knew nothing of this," does not He who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done? Proverbs 24:11

reply from: Faramir

It's really disappointing to see someone else get on the hate bandwagon.
It serves no good purpose.
She hasn't lied and has been forthright about abortion and her regret.
Nobody has any business questioning her sincerity.
If you disagree with some of her points, that's fine, but it's inexcusable and cruel to turn disagreements into an excuse to attack her for something she has openly admited to doing, and which she regrets.
If you have any sense of decency you will remove that harrassive and cruel signature, nancyu.

reply from: faithman

In that case, isn't CarolMarie trespassing against the unborn? If we take a fundamentalist reading of scripture, as is your want, we should leave it up to the unborn to rebuke her.
And the scripture also says to speak up for those who have no voice. That is the whole foundation of the so called pro-life movement.
Rescue those being led away to death, hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say "But we knew nothing of this," does not He who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done? Proverbs 24:11
According to killer carole, an sir doofus the MASTER deBATER, this scripture does not apply.

reply from: Faramir

In that case, isn't CarolMarie trespassing against the unborn? If we take a fundamentalist reading of scripture, as is your want, we should leave it up to the unborn to rebuke her.
And the scripture also says to speak up for those who have no voice. That is the whole foundation of the so called pro-life movement.
Rescue those being led away to death, hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say "But we knew nothing of this," does not He who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done? Proverbs 24:11
You are using scripture and the prolife movement in a despicable way--as a means to take part in bullying and demeaning someone else.
It's cruel and it's wicked.
And you have shown your true colors--that you are no different than faithman. You just let him do the dirty work.

reply from: faithman

In that case, isn't CarolMarie trespassing against the unborn? If we take a fundamentalist reading of scripture, as is your want, we should leave it up to the unborn to rebuke her.
And the scripture also says to speak up for those who have no voice. That is the whole foundation of the so called pro-life movement.
Rescue those being led away to death, hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say "But we knew nothing of this," does not He who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done? Proverbs 24:11
You are using scripture and the prolife movement in a despicable way--as a means to take part in bullying and demeaning someone else.
It's cruel and it's wicked.
And you have shown your true colors--that you are no different than faithman. You just let him do the dirty work.
SSSSOOOO the posting of scripture is dirty work?

reply from: sander

I know.
But, God said His Word would not return to Him void.
God is interested in justice, He says judgement was one of the weightier things of the law and not to be forsaken while extending mercy.
And whether some disgregard His Word it is still in effect. We don't have the last say.

reply from: nancyu

It's really disappointing to see someone else get on the hate bandwagon.
It serves no good purpose.
She hasn't lied and has been forthright about abortion and her regret.
Nobody has any business questioning her sincerity.
If you disagree with some of her points, that's fine, but it's inexcusable and cruel to turn disagreements into an excuse to attack her for something she has openly admited to doing, and which she regrets.
If you have any sense of decency you will remove that harrassive and cruel signature, nancyu.
Oh please forgive me.

reply from: sander

2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

reply from: nancyu

Faithman said it was okay!

reply from: nancyu

It wasn't my fault!!!

reply from: faithman

AAAAAAHHHHH good work my little menions!!!! AAAAAAWHHAHAhahahahaaaaa! [meniacal laugh]

reply from: nancyu

You see! you see! he is the evil one! Please don't hurt me.....

reply from: sander

LOL!
Thanks, I needed a laugh.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Carolmarie has said that all sin is equivalent. That failing to tithe a dime on your dollar tip as a waitress is as equally offensive to God as killing a young child. Carolmarie is wrong. Jesus said tithing was a required law, but he said there were "weighter matters of the law". Killing your child is a "weighter matter".

reply from: Teresa18

How would you feel if everyone was teaming up on you? I've been there, and it hurts. Why keep driving the nail in the wounds of a post-abortive mother? Why keep reminding her of her deceased children? She wants abortion illegal. She wants to go about it a different way.

reply from: sander

LOL! Thanks, I need that laugh too!
It's good to leave this place for work with a laugh. God knows it's hard enough to face the day without a little laughter, especially after sometime telling people that killing small, defensless babies is NOT a good thing!

reply from: faithman

I have been teamed up on quite often here. Just part of the gig. you don't see me whining about it? carole marie is on the wrong team, I sugest you don't make the same mistake.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Carolmarie is in denial. She has committed a very serious offense. She is constantly minimizing and denying the seriousness thereof. Heck, she says women who abort should not go to jail. The child has been turned into a rotting corpse tossed in some trash heap, and she should just go on with no discomfort from a faithman or nancyu?

reply from: sander

Right.
She and others like her mock God and think it's fine.
But, God said He would not be mocked, that we will reap what we sow.
They have twisted and perverted the Word of the living God and go along their merry way.
I hope they see the error they are in.

reply from: Faramir

LOL! Thanks, I need that laugh too!
It's good to leave this place for work with a laugh. God knows it's hard enough to face the day without a little laughter, especially after sometime telling people that killing small, defensless babies is NOT a good thing!
And I thought you were having more than enough fun beating up Carole.
It's good you can laugh about it too.

reply from: sander

I know what it's like too, Teresa.
Yes, she wants to go about it in a different way, but that way goes against the Word of the Living God.
And if we go against His statues what will be accomplished? Nothing, the babies will still die for generations to come.

reply from: sander

LOL! Thanks, I need that laugh too!
It's good to leave this place for work with a laugh. God knows it's hard enough to face the day without a little laughter, especially after sometime telling people that killing small, defensless babies is NOT a good thing!
And I thought you were having more than enough fun beating up Carole.
It's good you can laugh about it too.
Hypocrite.
I didn't see you rebuke CM when she was laughing, nor did I see her rebuke you for making a mockery of the Word of God.
You too make one sick pair.

reply from: Faramir

You better wait a little while to drive some sense into them.
They're having too much fun right now.
This gang reminds me of that video I saw recently where a bunch of girls beat up another girl.
These people are cruel, and I didn't expect this from prolifers.

reply from: Faramir

I know what it's like too, Teresa.
Yes, she wants to go about it in a different way, but that way goes against the Word of the Living God.
And if we go against His statues what will be accomplished? Nothing, the babies will still die for generations to come.
You're not fooling anyone anymore.
It's about the "word of sander."
You're misusing scriptures to bully someone, and that's obvious to the fair-minded around here, which unfortunately, do not seem to be in great numbers today.

reply from: faithman

You better wait a little while to drive some sense into them.
They're having too much fun right now.
This gang reminds me of that video I saw recently where a bunch of girls beat up another girl.
These people are cruel, and I didn't expect this from prolifers.
Just like we didn't expect pro-lifers to defend baby killers, but you semm never to pass up the opertunity, now do you?

reply from: Faramir

I know what it's like too, Teresa.
Yes, she wants to go about it in a different way, but that way goes against the Word of the Living God.
And if we go against His statues what will be accomplished? Nothing, the babies will still die for generations to come.
Too bad if she has a different way than your way. She's entiled to express her opinion without being subjected to bullying and verbal abuse.
She wants abortion to end too.
The problem is not the dispute. The problem is that you use the dispute as an excuse to demean and degrade, and that's very wrong and very cruel.

reply from: Teresa18

I have been teamed up on quite often here. Just part of the gig. you don't see me whining about it? carole marie is on the wrong team, I sugest you don't make the same mistake.
Or what?

reply from: Teresa18

Carolmarie is in denial. She has committed a very serious offense. She is constantly minimizing and denying the seriousness thereof. Heck, she says women who abort should not go to jail. The child has been turned into a rotting corpse tossed in some trash heap, and she should just go on with no discomfort from a faithman or nancyu?
She isn't. She has admitted to what she did and repented. She has made up for it by counseling women outside of the clinic to preserve the lives of their children. Do you think she should be harrased every time she comes on this board? She comes here to argue against abortion not for it.

reply from: faithman

I know what it's like too, Teresa.
Yes, she wants to go about it in a different way, but that way goes against the Word of the Living God.
And if we go against His statues what will be accomplished? Nothing, the babies will still die for generations to come.
Too bad if she has a different way than your way. She's entiled to express her opinion without being subjected to bullying and verbal abuse.
She wants abortion to end too.
The problem is not the dispute. The problem is that you use the dispute as an excuse to demean and degrade, and that's very wrong and very cruel.
Hey! I only dish out as good as I get. You have spared me no names now have you? get the telephone pole out of your eye before you worry about my tooth pick blurred vission. Now killer carole has openly agreed with the abortion industry. You can not agree with an enemy and hope to defeet them. When she openly agreed with the abortion industry, she became the enemy of the womb child who three of which she bullied to death. My loyalty is to the womb child not some killer scancs feelings. You don't like it tuff. It is obvious your loyalties lie else where other than the womb child. I fight for the womb child. If your feelings get in the way of that it is on you. I make no apologies, and no excuses. I'll leave the excuses to you and your girl freind killer carole.

reply from: Teresa18

I know what it's like too, Teresa.
Yes, she wants to go about it in a different way, but that way goes against the Word of the Living God.
And if we go against His statues what will be accomplished? Nothing, the babies will still die for generations to come.
How is she going against God's Word by fighting against the slaughter of his children? Just because she doesn't want women punished? I don't want that either, nor do many others in the pro-life movement like Father Frank Pavone and Mark Crutcher.

reply from: faithman

Carolmarie is in denial. She has committed a very serious offense. She is constantly minimizing and denying the seriousness thereof. Heck, she says women who abort should not go to jail. The child has been turned into a rotting corpse tossed in some trash heap, and she should just go on with no discomfort from a faithman or nancyu?
She isn't. She has admitted to what she did and repented. She has made up for it by counseling women outside of the clinic to preserve the lives of their children. Do you think she should be harrased every time she comes on this board? She comes here to argue against abortion not for it.
No she doesn't!!! She has point blank stated that the preborn child is second in consideration to the feelings of killer mom. She goes to the clinic for the killer scancs, not for the children who are being killed, they are just an after thought to her.

reply from: Faramir

Thank you for once again boiling it down and making it simple and obvious.

reply from: Teresa18

If all she cared about was the woman, then she wouldn't care about abortions legality. She does care. There would be no abortion without no child. Carole is at the clinic to save the woman from making a horrible mistake and to save the life of the child about to be killed.

reply from: faithman

Thank you for once again boiling it down and making it simple and obvious.
And it is obvious you are willingly ignoring the true intent of your girl friend. She is not pro womb child. She is prokiller scanc, and is willing to agree with the abortion industry to do it. but the obvious seems to be lost on you.

reply from: lukesmom

The recent posts on this thread sicken me. NONE of you are God and NONE of you has the right to judge anyone. This isn't saving babies it is instead "hanging" someone for a past they now regret and now use to help others. You have NO IDEA the hell of greif and none of us knows the HELL of GREIF PLUS REGRET. I refuse to be a part of this and feel shame for everyone taking part in this lynching. Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do...
If you want to continue this could you now please take this off the board??

reply from: nancyu

Take what off the board? I'm here to protect babies. Who are you here to defend? CM and Faramir are adults, at least they appear to be. If what I say is hurtful to them, they have more healing to do than I can help them with.

reply from: galen

shame on everyone who took part in the name calling diatribe you all put on... what would Jesus do if he saw this mob attacking someone else?
I thought that i respected a few of you here... now i've changed my mind.
shame.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Jesus and John the Baptist called sinners sons of Satan, snakes and murderers right to their faces. Why do you think they were hated and executed? That was a major provocation. Jesus testified, "The world hates me, because I keep telling it it's ways are evil."
I want to remind you that although carolmarie has said abortion should be illegal, she has expressed that it's not such a big deal if a woman does abort her child, they should serve no jail time.
Anyone with such a mindset soothes the feelings of the one who throws the rotting corpse of a murdered child in the trash. Her ministry is a feel good ministry for murderers. The child is forgotten.
She is not helping the child. She is helping mother's who abort feel comfortable and unflustered about the brutal act they have committed.

reply from: galen

Jesus also said those of you without sin cast the first stone... as He was He gets to judge... not us.
The fact of the matter: this can and has been debated on the very points you are concerned about without the name calling. She may have a diffrent veiw point about punishment to be metted out. I respect that... just like i respect the fact that you are not Catholic, or Yoda is agnostic ...
no one called MC3 those names......and i think that is pretty telling. espec ially as he had the same viewpoint.

reply from: faithman

Yes, the resent posts of a so called pro-lifer who openly agrees with the abortion industry to defend the feelings of a killer over the interest of the victim sickens me as well. Someone who has hung three children by abortion seems to not care about the hell and torture she put them thru. And all she seems to regret, and has vowed to fight, is that true pro-lifers think personhood should be atributed to the womb child so they are protected under the constitution and the rule of law. though none of us are GOD, He has given us His word, and some of us reverance that over the opinion of a baby killer, and those who pay more head to a pointy hat youth nazi in a dusty european cathidral, whose opression was one of the main reasons this country was started so we could escape from it. The freedom of speach is one of the major reasons this country has remained free. It is because this forum is a free speach zone, that it has become one of the best on the net. SSSSSOOOO no! I will never back off fighting the enemies of the womb child. My loyalties are to them alone on this issue. This board is exactly the place for this to be hashed out. You run entirely on emotion and refuse to address the issues. The issue is that the person in question has openly agreed with the abortion industry. The person in question said they would fight personhood if it meant future killers would meet justice. The person in question has walked all over the word of God to promote false doctrine. Killer Carole has consistantly promoted the interests on th killer mom over the interest of the womb child. So put your slubbering boohoo's in your hip pocket, and try looking at what is really going on. CM knows exacly what she is doing.

reply from: galen

and you said all that without the name calling... how nice.

reply from: lukesmom

Yes, the resent posts of a so called pro-lifer who openly agrees with the abortion industry to defend the feelings of a killer over the interest of the victim sickens me as well. Someone who has hung three children by abortion seems to not care about the hell and torture she put them thru. And all she seems to regret, and has vowed to fight, is that true pro-lifers think personhood should be atributed to the womb child so they are protected under the constitution and the rule of law. though none of us are GOD, He has given us His word, and some of us reverance that over the opinion of a baby killer, and those who pay more head to a pointy hat youth nazi in a dusty european cathidral, whose opression was one of the main reasons this country was started so we could escape from it. The freedom of speach is one of the major reasons this country has remained free. It is because this forum is a free speach zone, that it has become one of the best on the net. SSSSSOOOO no! I will never back off fighting the enemies of the womb child. My loyalties are to them alone on this issue. This board is exactly the place for this to be hashed out. You run entirely on emotion and refuse to address the issues. The issue is that the person in question has openly agreed with the abortion industry. The person in question said they would fight personhood if it meant future killers would meet justice. The person in question has walked all over the word of God to promote false doctrine. Killer Carole has consistantly promoted the interests on th killer mom over the interest of the womb child. So put your slubbering boohoo's in your hip pocket, and try looking at what is really going on. CM knows exacly what she is doing.
I am not going to respond to you or anyone else about this on the public board. If you want to continue this you can pm me or take it to the private thread.

reply from: nancyu

Yes, the resent posts of a so called pro-lifer who openly agrees with the abortion industry to defend the feelings of a killer over the interest of the victim sickens me as well. Someone who has hung three children by abortion seems to not care about the hell and torture she put them thru. And all she seems to regret, and has vowed to fight, is that true pro-lifers think personhood should be atributed to the womb child so they are protected under the constitution and the rule of law. though none of us are GOD, He has given us His word, and some of us reverance that over the opinion of a baby killer, and those who pay more head to a pointy hat youth nazi in a dusty european cathidral, whose opression was one of the main reasons this country was started so we could escape from it. The freedom of speach is one of the major reasons this country has remained free. It is because this forum is a free speach zone, that it has become one of the best on the net. SSSSSOOOO no! I will never back off fighting the enemies of the womb child. My loyalties are to them alone on this issue. This board is exactly the place for this to be hashed out. You run entirely on emotion and refuse to address the issues. The issue is that the person in question has openly agreed with the abortion industry. The person in question said they would fight personhood if it meant future killers would meet justice. The person in question has walked all over the word of God to promote false doctrine. Killer Carole has consistantly promoted the interests on th killer mom over the interest of the womb child. So put your slubbering boohoo's in your hip pocket, and try looking at what is really going on. CM knows exacly what she is doing.
I am not going to respond to you or anyone else about this on the public board. If you want to continue this you can pm me or take it to the private thread.

reply from: faithman

Shame on you for being swayed by emotion insted of facts!!! Shame on you for allowing a anti personhood baby killer post here like they are pro-life. Shame on you for proclaim ing shame against one of the strongest lifers on the boards.

reply from: galen

i really thought that about all of you.... and then this...you know how to debate without name calling ... look at your own actions w/ TBH... and now you act like this....????
what peed in ya'lls cornflakes?

reply from: faithman

Yes, the resent posts of a so called pro-lifer who openly agrees with the abortion industry to defend the feelings of a killer over the interest of the victim sickens me as well. Someone who has hung three children by abortion seems to not care about the hell and torture she put them thru. And all she seems to regret, and has vowed to fight, is that true pro-lifers think personhood should be atributed to the womb child so they are protected under the constitution and the rule of law. though none of us are GOD, He has given us His word, and some of us reverance that over the opinion of a baby killer, and those who pay more head to a pointy hat youth nazi in a dusty european cathidral, whose opression was one of the main reasons this country was started so we could escape from it. The freedom of speach is one of the major reasons this country has remained free. It is because this forum is a free speach zone, that it has become one of the best on the net. SSSSSOOOO no! I will never back off fighting the enemies of the womb child. My loyalties are to them alone on this issue. This board is exactly the place for this to be hashed out. You run entirely on emotion and refuse to address the issues. The issue is that the person in question has openly agreed with the abortion industry. The person in question said they would fight personhood if it meant future killers would meet justice. The person in question has walked all over the word of God to promote false doctrine. Killer Carole has consistantly promoted the interests on th killer mom over the interest of the womb child. So put your slubbering boohoo's in your hip pocket, and try looking at what is really going on. CM knows exacly what she is doing.
I am not going to respond to you or anyone else about this on the public board. If you want to continue this you can pm me or take it to the private thread.
That is your right to do. I have nothing to hide, and say anything I have to say in the open.

reply from: faithman

A baby killer pretending to be pro-life.

reply from: galen

Fine ... but while you would pray for TBH... even calling out online for that... where is your forgiveness twards CM.?
where are your prayers for her.. or Faramir..?
Why was only one worthy of your shout out?

reply from: faithman

It was a direct call of the spirit. What makes you think I do not pray for them? They claim to be pro-life. TBH did not. They spend their time blasting pro-life efforts at everyturn. Now let me play your game. You want to get all puffy with me and yet I have never sold out the womb child for hidden agendas. I have never defended a borthead over a pro-lifer. I have never allowed emotion to overide common sence, and I believe that pro-life is putting the child first. SSSSSOOOOOO where is all the SHAME ON YOU'S, to a woman who openly says she agrees with the abortion industry? Where are all the SHAME ON YOU'S to one who consistantly buts the interest of the killer over justice for the innocent they have killed. Where are all the SHAME ON YOU'S to some one who continues to ignore the word of God posted in front of their very eyes to promote a perverted doctrine? I make no apologies nor excuses. I have taken my lumbs from you cry babies with out whining about all the names you call me. I have been ganged up on twise as much as killer carole has ever thought of being, and haver not run off to the moderator to tattle tail. I believe in free speach, and raised my right hand and took an oath even to my own death to fight for your right to free speach. But don't you dare think you will take mine without a fight as well. I will not become a little pasifist coward like the rest of you. Killer Carole has brought this on herself when she presented herself the enemy of the womb child by action and word. My loyalty is to the womb child. Dont get your feelings between me and that loyalty and they won't get hurt. My oath was for them as well, and I am ready to lay down my life for them. Your present yourself as there enemy Then SHAME ON YOU.

reply from: galen

you need to go back and re read some others posts..there is a way to do this without resorting to others tactics..

reply from: lukesmom

Ahhhh, so this is what has you attacking Carol, that was a while back and you still haven't gotten over it? Fman, you were wrong with that very discusting post then and wrong in taking your anger about that out on Carol. Give it up already and get over it.

reply from: faithman

I resort to no ones tactics but my own. At the end of the day, the only one I have to look in the mirror is me. My defence of the womb child is based on the one looking back, and we are getting along just fine. I will never allow emotion to get in the way of defeating the enemy of the womb child. TBH has surrendered her war against the womb child. Killer carole has not. As long as she agrees with the abortion industry, then she is the enemy of the womb child, and has already shed blood in her war against them. She continues her war against them as a she wolf in pro-life wool. When she surrenders her war against the womb child, and puts their innocent life above the interest of those who would kill them, then she will never here another peep out of me. Until then she is their enemy, and my loyalty to them demands that I fight her, and apose her anyway I can. If you join her you are the enemy of the womb child as far as I am concerned. You are either in it for them, or you are against them. No middle ground as far as I am concerned. She is a murderer, a lier, and by word and action the enemy of the womb child.

reply from: faithman

Ahhhh, so this is what has you attacking Carol, that was a while back and you still haven't gotten over it? Fman, you were wrong with that very discusting post then and wrong in taking your anger about that out on Carol. Give it up already and get over it.
I haven't the foggiest what you are talking about.

reply from: Teresa18

Ahhhh, so this is what has you attacking Carol, that was a while back and you still haven't gotten over it? Fman, you were wrong with that very discusting post then and wrong in taking your anger about that out on Carol. Give it up already and get over it.
I think I know what you're talking about, but that wasn't Carole. That was Sheri.

reply from: nancyu

I have often wondered why so few defend the unborn. CarolMarie is not defenseless is she. If you are here to defend CarolMarie, why? All she has to do is leave the forum. We're not holding her here against her will. She apparently has courage enough to come back and defend herself, I think you aren't giving her enough credit. She is very strong. Now if we could only convince her to fight for personhood with us instead of fighting against us. We just want to win this and we would could use her help.

reply from: pilgrim

The very prayer our Lord gave us says '' forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us '' It does not say if they ask for forgivness. God wants us to forgive all trespasses against us unconditionally. It does not mean we have to remain connected to that person however we must keep open heart to receive him or her back if ever they want do repent. I have been tested many times in my life. Once Years ago due to a divorce in which I was separated from my four children I was hospitalize as a ''neurotic suicidal depressive.'' I found the hardest thing ever for me to do was to forgive someone who hurt me to the point where I was depressed enough to end my life and did not want or ask for forgivness. Only through Gods Love and my love for God did I survive.

reply from: faithman

Ahhhh, so this is what has you attacking Carol, that was a while back and you still haven't gotten over it? Fman, you were wrong with that very discusting post then and wrong in taking your anger about that out on Carol. Give it up already and get over it.
I think I know what you're talking about, but that wasn't Carole. That was Sheri.
Yall get it figured out and get back to me. I am talking recent. I call the mod from time to time on the phone, and he has told me that he gets numerous complaints about me all the time. My point is that I get ganged up on all the time, And have almost never complained about it. I take my lumps because I believe in free speach. Most of you don't, and would see this forum go done hill quick by cencorship. the complainers know who they are, and for the most part, I do too.

reply from: faithman

that simply isn't true, and is excluding Luke 17: 1-3 which is in the bible also. "unconditional" forgiveness is nowhere in the Bible. That is your opinion, not the word of God.

reply from: yoda

That bears repeating.
Let's all remember why we came here, and what the purpose of this forum is.

reply from: sander

That bears repeating.
Let's all remember why we came here, and what the purpose of this forum is.
And that bears repeating.
It's hard enough sometimes to stay on track when the proaborts come slinking in with their anti-life propaganda, but when you add pro-lifers to the same mix on the same side...well, you get what we got last night.

reply from: faithman

That bears repeating.
Let's all remember why we came here, and what the purpose of this forum is.
And that bears repeating.
It's hard enough sometimes to stay on track when the proaborts come slinking in with their anti-life propaganda, but when you add pro-lifers to the same mix on the same side...well, you get what we got last night.
What we got last nite was a false pro-lifer being exposed, and folk reacting emotionaly insted of objectively looking at what was said. We had a so called pro-lifer say they agreed with the abortion industry that the womb child is second in consideration to killer mom's interest, and killing a womb child is diferent than killing a 2 year old born child. We have also had this she wolf in pro-life wool say that she would fight personhood if future she wolves didn't get a free hunting license to walk away clean after killing womb children. I do not care what any of you say, that is not pro-life no matter how much they pretend to be. You defend people like that, you join them, and give up being pro-life your selves. The must be a line drawn here. It is very clear. either you advocate the interest of the womb child or you do not. either advocate personhood, or shut up about being pro-life. This issue started when personhood was denied. It will end when it is established. Anything less is a farces, and anyone who advocates less is false.

reply from: Faramir

You're a bully and you use the babies as an excuse to harrass and demean another person.
Just about everybody sees what you're doing.
You can rationalize it all you want, but you're exploiting the unborn to serve your hatefulness.
If you can't discuss an issue and be civil about it, you should be the one to move on.

reply from: faithman

Who said anything about moving on? It is obvious that your agenda is not fighting for the womb children. You are an idiot and willingly blind. Go pet your she wolf and shut up.

reply from: Faramir

Who said anything about moving on? It is obvious that your agenda is not fighting for the womb children. You are an idiot and willingly blind. Go pet your she wolf and shut up.
Interntet prochoicers are praying to whatever god they worship, thanking them for the gift of faithman.

reply from: faithman

Who said anything about moving on? It is obvious that your agenda is not fighting for the womb children. You are an idiot and willingly blind. Go pet your she wolf and shut up.
Interntet prochoicers are praying to whatever god they worship, thanking them for the gift of faithman.
And you bring stupidity to the highest hights it has ever known on this board. You are a prochoicer, and have done nothing but defend them sence you have been here. you very rarely say or do anything in defence of the child at all. Just what did you do with the cards I mailed you? not one report. Now who holds the grudge HHHMMMMMM? you are a simpleton at best, and a liability in the fight for womb life just like killer carole.

reply from: 4given

And internet pro-lifers are asking God to deliver an awakened generation of real men and women to help others realize His gift of LIFE.

reply from: nancyu

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2qOW__TneAY
Here's a little help for you faramir, Just subsitute the "brittany"s with "carolmarie"s

reply from: faithman

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2qOW__TneAY

Here's a little help for you faramir, Just subsitute the "brittany"s with "carolmarie"s
Where'd ya git the faramir home video?

reply from: nancyu

Nobody deserves to be attacked. Disgree with the, argue with them, attack their position all you want. But to attack the person is the act of a brute with nothing to them but their fists, physical or verbal.
The "brute" is the one who brutally killed three womb children. The "brute" is the one who promises that her and her fellow baby killers will fight personhood for the womb child, if that means future killer mom's would go to jail for murdering their children. The "brute" is the one who thinks they can slide in under the wire to demand that we must "forgive" and forget about justice for the innocent.
If she is repentant and has paid penance then in the eyes of your Lord she is forgiven. Who are you to maintain some kind of witch hunt against her?
If she is repentant...

reply from: nancyu

And internet pro-lifers are asking God to deliver an awakened generation of real men and women to help others realize His gift of LIFE.
Amen to that.

reply from: faithman

Nobody deserves to be attacked. Disgree with the, argue with them, attack their position all you want. But to attack the person is the act of a brute with nothing to them but their fists, physical or verbal.
The "brute" is the one who brutally killed three womb children. The "brute" is the one who promises that her and her fellow baby killers will fight personhood for the womb child, if that means future killer mom's would go to jail for murdering their children. The "brute" is the one who thinks they can slide in under the wire to demand that we must "forgive" and forget about justice for the innocent.
If she is repentant and has paid penance then in the eyes of your Lord she is forgiven. Who are you to maintain some kind of witch hunt against her?
If she is repentant...
I don't think it is a hunt at all. I'd say we found one!! Or maybe it's what ryhmns with witch?

reply from: nancyu

Nobody deserves to be attacked. Disgree with the, argue with them, attack their position all you want. But to attack the person is the act of a brute with nothing to them but their fists, physical or verbal.
The "brute" is the one who brutally killed three womb children. The "brute" is the one who promises that her and her fellow baby killers will fight personhood for the womb child, if that means future killer mom's would go to jail for murdering their children. The "brute" is the one who thinks they can slide in under the wire to demand that we must "forgive" and forget about justice for the innocent.
If she is repentant and has paid penance then in the eyes of your Lord she is forgiven. Who are you to maintain some kind of witch hunt against her?
If she is repentant...
I don't think it is a hunt at all. I'd say we found one!! Or maybe it's what ryhmns with witch?
.

reply from: galen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLCG5mNlxnI&feature=related

reply from: nancyu

http://ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judgb1.htm


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