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Catholics on this site

Identify yourselves or be excommunicated.

by: Faramir

Just curious who else is a Catholic on this site.
Maybe we could start our own sub forum here.
(Then we could round up all the heretics and...well you know... )
Anyway, I'm not the best representative of what a Catholic man should be, but I'm proud of my faith, and proud of my Church for having been a defender of life in the womb for 2,000 years.
So who else is a Catholic?

reply from: 4given

I have lived and learned within the Catholic Church..I am a CHRISTIAN! Do you have an issue you would like to address with me here? Sub-forum- fabulous thought. I encourage you to share your frustrations and grievances on your thread as opposed to another. Please do.

reply from: Faramir

I'm glad you're having some fun with this too.

reply from: 4given

Fun? Are you mad? I am waiting earnestly for you to step up. What exactly do you mean?

reply from: Faramir

I think we're having some "failure to communicate" issues.
Somone on another thread asked if I was a Catholic, so I became curious about who the Catholics are on this site--just for the fun of it.
My idea about doing something bad to the heretics was just a joke. We stopped burning them at the stake a decade ago.

reply from: 4given

Again, you expressed displeasure at what you felt was an unfair attack on a proabortion poster- If you take issue with me over my comments, please do so here. Don't hide your thoughts or feelings over a lack of a warm (cuddles and kisses) embrace from what you considered to be fellow ProLIFErs. I urge you to address any personal issues you have with me. I am eager to learn. I am not above reproach.

reply from: Faramir

I only had one issue with you in one thread. It was no big deal, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, most of your posts are thoughtful and reasonable. It doesn't seem to be your style to make personal attacks. (And I'm not above reproach either. In fact, I'm very reproachable).
I don't mind if you want to post or comment in this thread, but it was not meant in any way to criticize you, or bring up other issues. I was just curious about who else here is Catholic. There was nothing more to it than that.

reply from: 4given

Okay. How does being Catholic different from being a Christian? Is there such a thing as a pro-choice Christian?

reply from: 4given

Yet you will not/did not address me personally with that "issue". If you have an issue with me, please address me personally. It is not necessary to involve others. Likewise I will do the same.

reply from: Faramir

I consder myself to be a Christian. As a Catholic, I believe that Catholic Church has the fullness of Christianity, and that other Churches are also Christian, though imperfectly, do a degree.
I consider anyone who believes in the Holy Trinity, that the Bible is inspired and inerrant, who beleives what the Apostles Creed says, and who is baptitized, to be a Christian.
The biggest difference between Catholic and non Catholic Christians is that Catholics belive in the Bible and Tradition, and many Chritian denominations have the Bible as their sole authority.
But I didn't make this thread to take issue with non Catholic Christians. I'm just curious about who the other Catholics are on this site.

reply from: 4given

Is there such a thing as a "pro-choice" Christian?

reply from: Faramir

There are some who think they can be prochoice Catholics, but that's impossible, and could be cause of excommunication.
I don't know how to hold nonCatholic Christians accountable to being prolife. I can't appeal to the authority of the Pope or Catholic dogma.
I think there are some very confused Christians who are prochoice. But it's hard for me to comprehend that a Christian could be prochoice, and how a Christian could defend that position.

reply from: cracrat

Technically I am, but only because they snare you when you're too young to object and then you're stuck with it for life unless you really annoy the Pope of something and I don't fancy going down that road. I have my ideas of God, but they don't conform so much with the Church's.
My mother's a pro-choice Catholic. She once had an argument with a pro-lifer who said she had no business calling herself Catholic. I had to step in when the other guy got violent. I really don't get some of those guys, squaring up to a woman because she disagrees with you?!

reply from: jujujellybean

Hey Faramir,
I am a Catholic! Staunch, law abiding, church going Catholic. I hope sheri won't object to me saying that she also is a good Catholic.
It's funny, because I was just PMing Sheri about the very thing: well, not exactly. I was thinking it would be nice for all the catholics here to have their very own PRIVATE thread, where we could have a nice place to talk w/o people getting offended or something. Would you be interested in that?

reply from: jujujellybean

Well, they may call themselves Christians but I don't think you can support killing and truly be christian. It's like calling yourself a vegetarian and eating meat. Doesn't really work.

reply from: jujujellybean

You have a really twisted view of Catholicism. They snare you when you are too young to object and then you are stuck with it for life? What the heck does that mean?
About your mom, that's sad people are like that.

reply from: Faramir

Teresa is one also.
It might be our calling to bring Cracrat back into the fold.
He's not totally gone yet. There is still good in him. I can feel it. He can be turned, and could be a powerful ally.

reply from: Faramir

I don't understand a guy squaring up to a woman either. He's a lot braver than I am, for sure.
But your mum IS being disobedient to the Church. It's not as if we get to pick and choose those teachings we like and reject those we don't like.

reply from: Beprolifewithme

REALLY? I find that hard to understand that you are both catholic and prochoice.... one of the catholic rules ( i guess you would call it) is to be prolife. You can't be prochoice and Catholic...doesn't work. But hey we'd love for you to join us...but first you have to support life.

reply from: Beprolifewithme

Oh forgot to mention, I'am and have been catholic for 14 years now...I was raised catholic. My dad is actually not catholic, but he supports our decisions for sacraments and weekly attendance at mass and such. He sometimes attends mass with us, but never receives communion (many non catholics do at our church) Good idea for this thread, I've been wondering this myself.

reply from: cracrat

You have a really twisted view of Catholicism. They snare you when you are too young to object and then you are stuck with it for life? What the heck does that mean?
About your mom, that's sad people are like that.
I was told at my Catholic school, run by Catholic monks, that once I'd been christened into the Church, I was Catholic for life. I was christened before my first birthday. Don't remember if I'd started to speak by then but I was certainly too young to ask the necessary questions for and against, or form cogent arguments either way. I was snared when too young to object and am now Catholic for life.

reply from: cracrat

Teresa is one also.
It might be our calling to bring Cracrat back into the fold.
He's not totally gone yet. There is still good in him. I can feel it. He can be turned, and could be a powerful ally.
Thanks Faramir. I appreciate someone on this site recognising me as something other than a crazed infantcidal maniac. I'm afraid at this time I do not feel a lack of spiritual element that can be filled with the teachings of the Church. I suggest you direct those efforts elsewhere.
I recognise though the rationality of your standing. I am most definately your ally in bringing sanity to this debate.

reply from: cracrat

I don't understand a guy squaring up to a woman either. He's a lot braver than I am, for sure.
But your mum IS being disobedient to the Church. It's not as if we get to pick and choose those teachings we like and reject those we don't like.
I don't understand someone squaring up to my mum either, Lord knows I wouldn't try it. And not just 'cos she's a woman.
I don't question my mother's adherance to her faith. She's a lesbian too, I understand the Church isn't too keen on them either. But all that is her business, between her, her preist and God. I hope she wouldn't choose to worship a God who would hold it against her for speaking and acting the way she feels is right.

reply from: cracrat

REALLY? I find that hard to understand that you are both catholic and prochoice.... one of the catholic rules ( i guess you would call it) is to be prolife. You can't be prochoice and Catholic...doesn't work. But hey we'd love for you to join us...but first you have to support life.
I'm not a practicing Catholic, I'm one by default of being christened into the Church. I'm pro-choice by way of opposing the ban of abortion. I oppose the ban because I don't believe it'll happen and I don't believe it'd reduce abortion rates as far as I'd like to see them reduced.
I absolutely support life. More so than some other "pro-lifers" on this forum.

reply from: jujujellybean

Would you care to exaggerate? That is one of the most naive comments i have ever heard, and when you are around some people you hear a lot.
What are you referring to? The millions or more dollars going to poor children in America, Africa, and other third world countries every year from Catholic churches in America? All the missionaries that are saving lives in those same countries and providing church services for those that otherwise wouldn't get any? What about Mother Theresa? She cared for the sick every day of her life. And what about the lay people like me that donate money, care for the homeless, donate money and food, clothing and toys to less fortunate families? Is that the atrocious record you are referring to? Because if it is, I would like to know what good is.

reply from: jujujellybean

Once you stop believing, you aren't really Catholic. You may have been baptized one, but you aren't truly in it. My uncle was baptized Catholic, but doesn't practice. He wouldn't tell someone he is a Catholic, cause he isn't.
Most everyone is christened before then. It is the custom and teaching. Were you confirmed? That is when YOU are supposed to decide that the faith is for you.
I think that, if those monks did say that in those exact words, that you misunderstood them. You may go to mass and go through the motions, but if the whole time you are thinking how stupid it is and how you don't like it, do you think that you may be Catholic? Doesn't seem realistic to me!

reply from: Banned Member

I am Catholic, and have for the most part, always been Catholic. I wish that I could say that the Catholic clergy, including Bishops, has been as outspoken about their pro-life belief as they could be, but that would not be entirely true.
Some Bishops such as the late Kenneth Untener, advocated birth control and abortion rights to the extent that he was in opposition to Rome. Such Bishops as Untener should be disregarded. Happily I can say that the Popes, Benedict XVI, John Paul II and Paul VI were unquestionably pro-life.
The Catholic Church has done things that were wrong in the past. Pope John Paul II openly admitted that, apologized and sought the forgiveness any and all that the Church has treated wrong throughout its history. John Paul II also was unapologetically pro-life and pro-marriage.
Even today, there are Bishops that do not hold to church teaching, (Bishop Thomas Gumbleton of Saginaw has been openly in favor of gay rights and defended the homosexual lifestyle). Catholic should know that this is wrong and disregard such Bishops.
Know your the Church teaching, so that you may tell where the priests, bishops and lay people are wrong in what they proclaim. The Pope is the only member of the Church that enjoys infallibility in regards to faith and morals.

reply from: Teresa18

I am a practicing Catholic. I struggle from time to time, but I try to live the Catholic faith.
Cracrat,
When one is baptized a Catholic, one is always a Catholic unless excommunicated. However, Catholics that have fallen away and no longer adhere to the teachings of the Church are often referred to as Catholics In Name Only (CINOs). When one supports abortion or practices homosexual behavior, one voluntarily excommunicates oneself from the Church, meaning one can not recieve Communion. One must seek forgiveness in Christ through Confession in order to come back into the Church.

reply from: Faramir

Is anybody here a convert like me? I became a Catholic at age 38, 14 years ago.

reply from: jujujellybean

No, can't say I am, but I know so many. it is great when they finally come home to the faith!

reply from: Teresa18

I'm not either. I was baptized Catholic not long after I was born.

reply from: carolemarie

i was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and stuff.
My family is Irish Catholic, we have priests and nuns in the family.
In fact, my great aunt is the inspiration for a series of murder mystries written by another nun, Sister Carol Ann. Sister Mary Helen is the main charactor who hides books behind her prayer book. You should read them, they are actually pretty good....

reply from: Faramir

Dude, you should come back to the Church.
Then you can be in our club we've got going here, too.

reply from: jujujellybean

are you a catholic really though? just wondering, cause you didn't say directly tho i am sorta dumb tonight so i may have just missed it.

reply from: Faramir

et tu juju?
First they question whether I'm prolife.
And now this...
Yes, I'm a card carrying member of the Catholic Church. Here, I'll prove it. I'll quote the Baltimore Catechism, that I never learned as a child.
Who made me?
God made me.
Why did He make me?
To know Him, to love Him, and to serve him in this life, and to be happy with him forever in the next.
Is that enough proof?
Just don't ask me to list the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, please.

reply from: Altari

How does one go about being excommunicated? I would like to do this.

reply from: Faramir

How does one go about being excommunicated? I would like to do this.
You've already excommunicated yourself by leaving the Church. You don't need to do anything.
If you ever want to return, though, all you have to do is go to a priest and make a confession covering the sins you committed since your last confession.

reply from: Smurfy

How does one go about being excommunicated? I would like to do this.
I'd join if they give you an official certificate when you get excommunicated.
That would rawk.

reply from: Altari

I can't go to confession. I was never confirmed. Or is it the other way around?
I'll go back to biting the heads off chickens, thnx.
@smurfy
Yeah, I think I would put it in a frame and hang it on my wall.

reply from: Smurfy

I wonder if Faithman would print us out 'Pro death maggot bort-head scanc' certificates.
That would be gnarly too.

reply from: Faramir

You don't need to be Confirmed to go to Confession. You don't ever have to be Confirmed, though if you ever come back, that's something that should be done.

reply from: Altari

No need. We http://i28.tinypic.com/156aec4.gif

reply from: Smurfy

OMFG I'm putting that in my sig!

reply from: cracrat

OK then, I'm a CINO, wasn't aware of that term.
A you saying my mum must seek forgiveness for being the person she is? No ever loving God would crime her for being happy. That's one of the teachings of the Church I find most repellent, I also don't believe God really cares so much about who you eye up when you go to a bar. It makes me smile when I think about all the gay-bashing that goes on in the name of the Church, I truly believe the people who do it are going to have a mighty ugly surprise when they meet their Maker.

reply from: cracrat

Once you stop believing, you aren't really Catholic. You may have been baptized one, but you aren't truly in it. My uncle was baptized Catholic, but doesn't practice. He wouldn't tell someone he is a Catholic, cause he isn't.
Most everyone is christened before then. It is the custom and teaching. Were you confirmed? That is when YOU are supposed to decide that the faith is for you.
I think that, if those monks did say that in those exact words, that you misunderstood them. You may go to mass and go through the motions, but if the whole time you are thinking how stupid it is and how you don't like it, do you think that you may be Catholic? Doesn't seem realistic to me!
Maybe I did misunderstand. I shall go and find our Chaplain soon and ask him to clarify for me. I was never confirmed though school tried really hard to push me into it, I resisted because I felt it'd be ever so hypocritical of me. Always thought their pressure implied the words were less important to them than me, even though I don't believe as they do.

reply from: Faramir

If she is being willfully disobedient to the Church, she needs to seek forgiveness for whatever it is she is rebelling against.
If she is blinded by ignorance, she might not be at much fault, though it behooves her to inform her own concscience. And all the tools for doing so are within easy reach for a Catholic.

reply from: Smurfy

The Chruch isn't the ultimate authority in the Christian faith.
God is.
As you stated, Faramir, God is unknowable and unfathomable to our puny mortal minds. How do we know Cracrat's mother won't be welcomed with open arms?

reply from: cracrat

She will be when her time comes or God and I are going to have a really big falling out.

reply from: jujujellybean

Ok, that is a ttly different topic here. You act as if the Church is a group of rulers or something.

reply from: sheri

JuJu, that was SO funny! Its like being a vegatarian that eats meat!

reply from: abc123

The way this topic is going is a disgrace to the blood of Jesus. The Catholic Church did not die for the sins of the world, it was Jesus Christ; period. And it is not your priest that can forgive your sins, it is only Jesus. I Timothy 2:5-6 says: For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
By going to Catholic school or going to church with your parents or by being baptist as a baby in the catholic church doesn't save you. You may be called a Catholic for life but that doesn't save you. Only a personal relationship with Christ will save you. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to Father but through Him.
Cracrat, your mother is in defiance to the Word of God. It says in I Corinthians 6:9-11 that if she does not turn from living in her homosexual lifestyple she will not inherit the kingdom of God. God is a loving God but He also is a just God. What would you think of judge who let a rapist go back free on the streets because he was a loving judge. You wouldn't approve of that judge would you? Your mother must turn away from her sin and follow Christ and follow Christ's commandments. As a Christian you do not get to pick and choose which sins apply to you and which one's don't.
In closing I am not a catholic, their are many things in the catholic church that they teach that are outright lies. The catholic church does properly teach is the Deity of Christ. If any of you can give me some scripture references from the Bible proving these I would welcome them.
Here are just a few that come to mind:
Purgatory/Indulgences
Why a catholic prays to Mary (she is dead just as Moses, Isaac, etc..)
Believing Mary lived a sinless life and remained a virgin her entire life
Belief that the bread and wine are magically turned into Jesus' body and blood when you take communion. You are continually re-sacrificing Jesus, Jesus suffered and died once and for all who come to Him.
Catholics are also to be commended for being predominately pro-life and are willing to go to the clinics to stand in the gap for the slaughter of the innocent.
I am speaking truth from the Word of God which is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow; and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

reply from: Banned Member

abc123,
The moment you pick up a bible, you accept the authority of the Catholic Bishops of the Catholic Church. No Catholic Church, no Bible. God is the only one that can forgive sins. And how does God do that? Through the sacraments that were given to us by Jesus Christ himself. Namely the sacrament of reconciliation.
I will agree that being a Catholic does not automatically save anyone. Only living in the complete truth of the Gospel may do that. That said it is also not true that there is no salvation of the Catholic Church. There is ever the possibility of salvation within the Catholic Church however.
Sin however, when one does know the fullness of truth, will cut oneself off from God. Among such sins are homosexuality and ABORTION. If a practicing, or once practicing Catholic knowingly rejects the truth of the Gospel, than they are the ones who rejects salvation. They are the ones who call God a liar.
As for the rest of abc123s anti-Catholic rhetoric, it is the same old song and dance that I here from these sorts of anti-Catholics "sola scriptura" types from time to time. I have no time to responde to all of this here, and probably not the energy this morning.

reply from: abc123

Augustine,
You are taking this personal, truth is truth and lies are lies plain and simple. If this is the same old song and dance that you have encountered from time to time you should easily be able to refute my questions with scriptures that back up these claims.

reply from: cracrat

Would you care to exaggerate? That is one of the most naive comments i have ever heard, and when you are around some people you hear a lot.
What are you referring to? The millions or more dollars going to poor children in America, Africa, and other third world countries every year from Catholic churches in America? All the missionaries that are saving lives in those same countries and providing church services for those that otherwise wouldn't get any? What about Mother Theresa? She cared for the sick every day of her life. And what about the lay people like me that donate money, care for the homeless, donate money and food, clothing and toys to less fortunate families? Is that the atrocious record you are referring to? Because if it is, I would like to know what good is.
How about the millions of people killed? Apparently someone has never opened a history book. Read some and respond when you know what you're talking about. Hint: try Inquisitions and Malleus Maleficarum.
Church services for those that otherwise wouldn't get any? You mean forced conversion of indigenous people. Yes, the church is good at that - I'll give you that one.
And how much of your donations have gone to compensate the victims of the priest scandals? How many dioceses have been bankrupted by the consequences of the church's complicity?
Don't forget the millions of people being infected by HIV/AIDS in Africa every year because the Church won't allow people to use condoms.

reply from: cracrat

Thanks for your concern, but I have my own relationship with God that's between me and Him. I don't need an earthly infrastructure to approve of or correct that relationship for me.
You're not actually comparing my mother to a rapist are you? Congrats, you have plummed new depths of inhumanity for those who profess to be Christian.

reply from: abc123

Cracrat,
Then the god you are worshipping is not the God of the Bible; Jesus Christ. What are you talking about regarding an earthly infrastructure to approve your relationship. Jesus said Himself I am the way, the truth and the life, not me. John 14:6
No I wasn't comparing your mother to a rapist, I was only giving you an example of what it would be like if God were an unjust judge of us. You can read it throughout the bible that homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord and no homosexual will inherit the kingdom of God. If you love your mother you should be willing to offend your mother by telling her the truth, that she is going against God's word. Listen to this from the book of Hebrews 10:26- 29 :For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of 2 or 3 witmesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? Read Romans 1:18-32....v 18 The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteouseness....v24 God gave them over in the lust of their hearts to impurity.....v26 God gave them over to degrading passions; for the women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural....
Breakings God's law knowingly and pridefully is saying even though you believe in God's way for most aspects of your life, I'm going to take this one into my own and rebel against my Creator. May God convict you to confront your mom before it is too late.

reply from: cracrat

I'm not interested in who's God it is, but it provides me with the spiritual element I need in my life. Maybe in time I will come to your God, but not now.
It is not my business how my mother worships her God. Like I said, it's between her, her priest and God. I suspect she'll value her priest's advice and what God says to her more than words I pass on that I've heard from a stranger over the internet.

reply from: GratiaPlena

I was born Catholic- hence the name

reply from: Faramir

I figured with a name like that...but it's also important to "die Catholic."
Are you still in the Church?

reply from: jujujellybean

Explain. I didn't think you would care about dioceses????

reply from: jujujellybean

I know! I hear 'the church tells you what to think and the only people that are in there are robots' all the time. It gets annoying after a while. I didn't mean to be rude, though, sorry if it came across that way Joueravecfou.

reply from: Altari

Us Sola Scriptura morons will continue to place our faith is Christ alone, and not some group of fallible men. kthnx.

reply from: jujujellybean

Originally posted by: abc123
The way this topic is going is a disgrace to the blood of Jesus. The Catholic Church did not die for the sins of the world, it was Jesus Christ; period. And it is not your priest that can forgive your sins, it is only Jesus. I Timothy 2:5-6 says: For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
No one is saying the Catholic Church died for the sins of the world. That would be downright ludicrous.
Yes Jesus is a mediator, and Jesus had authority to appoint others to take his place on earth. He appointed the apostles. Then, they appointed people. He told Peter what he bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and what he loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven.
By going to Catholic school or going to church with your parents or by being baptist as a baby in the catholic church doesn't save you. You may be called a Catholic for life but that doesn't save you. Only a personal relationship with Christ will save you. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to Father but through Him.
'Being catholic' doesn't save anyone. Did someone tell you that? They are wrong, that is not what the church teaches. We believe in works. If you try to live like Christ, and do the best you can, then you will hopefully get to Heaven. If you become a Catholic, then you are not automatically saved. But having just a personal relationship and living an awful life doesn't do you much good either.
In closing I am not a catholic, their are many things in the catholic church that they teach that are outright lies. The catholic church does properly teach is the Deity of Christ. If any of you can give me some scripture references from the Bible proving these I would welcome them.
Here are just a few that come to mind:
Purgatory/Indulgences
Do you believe in a Hell? What about sins that we have, does God just forget about them automatically? He is a just God, you know.
Why a catholic prays to Mary (she is dead just as Moses, Isaac, etc..)
Do you ever ask living people to pray for you? Well, if you believe in Life after death, then those people are just as able to pray as we are! Esp. Mary, the mother of our lord.
Believing Mary lived a sinless life and remained a virgin her entire life
Tell me, do you think yourself worthy to carry Jesus? That is basically what you are saying.
And she had to be a virgin: back then, once a woman was 'touched' she was considered unclean, and used. The Holy Spirit had already touched her, and so she couldn't have intercourse with another man, nor would it have been right.
Belief that the bread and wine are magically turned into Jesus' body and blood when you take communion. You are continually re-sacrificing Jesus, Jesus suffered and died once and for all who come to Him.
What about Jesus's words at the last supper? "this is my body, do this in memory of me?" He didn't say this is a symbol of my body. He said it was his body. He also said "DO THIS IN MY MEMORY." It is a command, not a request. Also, what about the time Jesus was preaching and was saying that you must eat his body and drink his blood to experience eternal life? So many people left him, then and there, and he didn't call them back. Don't you think he would have said if he just meant it symbolically? Instead, he just let them go. He wasn't kidding around.
Catholics are also to be commended for being predominately pro-life and are willing to go to the clinics to stand in the gap for the slaughter of the innocent.
Yes. The Catholic Church is one of the biggest, if NOT the biggest, religious organization that wholly supports life. You may have heard this, but when I argued with a PP worker, she kept bringing up the Church, even before she knew I was Catholic. It was stuff you needed to study to know about. It is one of their deadliest enemies.
I am not good at verses, but it seems to me that you are pretty well versed yourself and when I refer to something I think that you should recognize them. Most are pretty common, like the last supper for instance! Hope this helps. I will be waiting eagerly for your reply!!!!!!

reply from: 4given

No. Being Catholic does not mean that you will enter into the Kingdom. You have to accept Christ as Your Lord and Savior. Being Catholic doesn't guarantee anything. It is about a personal relationship with Christ. You have to die believing that Jesus christ is the Son of God and was sacrificed for your sins. People aren't "born" naturally into faith. They have to find it. Some are more fortunate than others that they are reared in Christian homes, but salvation is personal and individual. The Church isn't with you as you stand before God.

reply from: Banned Member

Jesus Christ was not a fallible man. Jesus Christ was the perfect man and divine, human in all ways and yet without sin. However...
Peter was a fallible man. Peter denied Christ three times. John was a fallible man. Paul was a fallible man. The Bible was canonized by a group of fallible Catholic men who happened to be Bishops more than 300 years after Jesus Christ was crucified. The Bible was not written by a bunch of infallible men handpicked by Christ himself. Strangely enough, Jesus did not direct anyone to write a Bible of any kind. It was written by a group of fallible men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit, whose words were canonized by the Catholic Church. Men may make errors. The Holy Spirit does not.
In 405 AD the Bible (all 73 books) was canonized by the Catholic Church under Pope St. Innoncent I, in Rome. Pope Innocent I was the 40th Pope before the Official Canon was closed on Sacred Scripture. There had been 39 popes before the Bible was finalized in Canonization in 405 AD.
Jesus did however, as we see through the witness of those that wrote the Bible, instruct the creation of a Church to be led by by His apostles. He, Jesus in the Bible, selected Peter to be the head of that Church. The Catholic Church is that Church. The office that Peter held is the same that is held by Pope Benedict XVI and has been held by every Pope since Peter. Peter was the head of the Bishops, the Bishop of Rome, the very same office of the Pope.
As the earliest Jewish Christians were celebrating the presense of the Lord in the Eucharist as passover barely 40 years after the ressurection, there was as yet no Bible, and many parts of the Bible were not even written yet. There was the Gospel, the word of God passed from disciple to disciple. They lived the Gospel and were willing to die for their belief in the real presense of the Lord in the Eucharist.
A mere few days after the ressurection Jesus made himself present in the breaking of the bread amidst two disciples on the road to Emmaus as recalled in Luke 24. So he went in to stay with them. And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight.
When the two encountered their other disciples the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread.
The Eucharist is the Body of Christ because Jesus Christ says that it is. John 6:54-59 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Jesus proclaims "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." and as a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
They had said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"
Matthew 16:18-19 And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kepha, in Aramaic), and upon this rock (Kepha) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
I am Catholic and as such, I follow a line of disciples back to the breaking of the Bread at the last supper, the passover of Christ, the perfect sacrifice, the Lamb who IS Christ, the Son of God. Discipleship; in Baptism, as all Christians are Baptised, the confession of sins (reconciliation) and the imposition of hands (confirmation) the imparting of the Holy Spirit, as at Pentacost.
Catholicism is the very history of Christs disciples; Sacred Word in Scripture, and Sacred Tradition in the very Church of Christ. Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, she from whom the Word took flesh; she who was without sin, herself conceived without sin. Mary was the first disciple, and first work of God's salvation in Christ.
Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." to whom Elizabeth responded "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? "
The woman who bore John, the Baptist, who would proclaim the coming of the Christ, calls Mary the mother of my Lord.
I am Catholic. I am a Christian.

reply from: Altari

Yes, I am. I am a Pentecostal Protestant. I very strongly dislike the RCC, from personal experiences as well as their teachings.

reply from: Faramir

From a Catholic perspective, within the Catholic Church subsists all the revealed Truth that God intends for man to know during his earthly existence, as it pertains to his morals and eternal salvation.
The Catholic knows that sexual behavior outside of a valid marriage is a serious sin, and could lead to damnation. Ignorance and other factors could make the person less culplable, and though Cracrat's mother, if she is a practicing homosexual, is committing a serious sexual sin, as well as the sin of sacrilege by receiving Holy Communion in this state, God is ever merciful, and she will have opportunities to turn away from this sin and be restored to God. And ignorance is an excuse only to a certain point. Willful ignorance is not an excuse, and we have an obligation to inform our consciences.
If she thinks the teachings of the church are a lot of hooey, she has no business being a member. It's not a cafeteria where you pick and choose what you like and reject those things that are hard.
Heck, I can't even be a prolife feminist. Feminists won't stand for it, and won't allow me to call myself that, even though there does not seem to be any dogma like in the Church, where there is no wiggle room when it comes to sexual moality.
Why join or be in a club if you don't intend to follow the rules?

reply from: Smurfy

As you stated, Faramir, God is unknowable and unfathomable to our puny mortal minds. How do we know Cracrat's mother won't be welcomed with open arms?
You think you know.
But you could well be wrong.
After all, how is being homosexual hurting anyone else?

reply from: Faramir

How is me having sex in a closet all alone hurting anyone?
Yet it's a serious sin.
And all sin not only harms the sinner, but ripples out and harms others, because there is a kind of brotherhood and solidarity in mankind and we don't do anything in a vaccuum.
It is not a sin to be a homosexual, but it is a sin to act on homosexual inclinations. It is not a sin if girls look good to a herosexual man, but it would be a sin to go further and be promiscuous.
You're free to believe whatever. You asked me a specific question about Cracrat's mother, and I answered from a Catholic perspective.

reply from: Smurfy

Why is it a sin if no-one is harmed by it?

reply from: Faramir

It is impossible for sin to not harm others, and it doesn't matter if it's done in a dark dungeon and nobody ever knows.
It harms others just like if you dumped your poop in the river, or released poisnous gasses into the atmosphere.
But ultimately, all sin is against God, and it puts a barrier between God and the sinner and between the sinner and other men and women.
So if I were to practice solitary sex, that would be a grevious sin. It goes against God's purposes and is a serious perversion of the marital act. All sin dulls the intellect and weakens the will. Such wasted vitality prevents the sinner from being all he can be, and makes him susceptible to commiting more sins.
The drunk could get drunk alone, but if he has a family, he's harming them. If he drives his car in that condition, he's a killer. If he never gets a job beyond bagging groceries, he fails to rise to his potential and deprives his brothers and sisters of a greater good.

reply from: Smurfy

You didn't answer the question.
How does homosexuality harm anyone?
Put 'sin' to one side for a second.
How does it harm other people?

reply from: Faramir

Do you mean a homosexual inclination, or the practice of homosexuality?

reply from: Smurfy

Practice, between two cnsenting homosexuals.

reply from: Faramir

The sin aspect, and the harm that sin causes, is not something so easily dismissed.
And there are many sins related to sexuality, and I would not want to just pick on homosexuality. There are many heterosexual sins. And there are sins of the mind.
Pornography is an example of somthing that allegedly doesn't harm anyone, yet as someone who had been addicted to it for a few years some years ago, I can say that is IS harmful to the person indulging it it, as well as to his family, since at the very least the person addicted is not entirely and fully present to his family and their needs. And it exploits the actors who degrade themselves for the pleasure of others.
There is nobody who does not struggle with some temptation, and there are many people, including Christians, who are sexually addicted or who suffer from one disorder or another, and there are Christians who do fairly well, but occasionally stumble, but get back on course, and there are some who lead exemplary lives and stay close to God and far from sin, the point being that Christians who talk about sexual sins and the harm they cause are often in the same boat, but are working to set themselves free.
At any rate, I can't say that there is any sin that is not harmful to others, including the sin of homosexual sex.
But relatively speaking, it doesn't harm others in the same way that stealing from widows or the poor does, for example.
Those who fall into sexual sin are sometimes forced into it because of circumstances out of their control, or because of some kind of emotional trauma, and I suppose there could be issues which arise because of hormonal imbalances, and it is a struggle to break free of an addiction, and these people would be less guilty than those who willfully seek out a practice that goes against sexual morality.
Each and every one of us are "damaged goods." Those who indulge in the disorders related to the damage, perpetuate and increase the damage. We often indirectly harm others by indulging in sin bynot being all that we could be, and by not being a greater good and benefit to our fellow man.
I don't have any more time this evening, but maybe I'll come back to this.
The bottom line is that from a Christian perspective man has fallen and we all suffer with disorders and defectes because of this fall. Without turning to God, we will only become more defective by induging ourselves.
The heterosexual who fornicates, watches pornography, is an adulterer, or who masturbates is also indulging in disordered desires.
So the answer is that anyone who sins sexually or otherwise is doing something that is harmful, even if doing no harm in the eyes of the law. I'm not going to single out homosexuality.

reply from: Smurfy

You're not answering the question; you're just circling the issue with more of the same stuff that you have already posted, which is entirely unsatisfactory.
How does homosexuality harm other people?
Thou shalt not kill = killing harms another person
Thou shalt not steal = stealing harms another person
Thou shalt not bear false witness = lying harms another person.
Etc, etc, etc.
How does homosexuality harm another person?
In what clear, easily definable, conventional way does it harm another human being?

reply from: Faramir

I can't think of any way homosexual sins harm others any more than my own sins that I struggle with.
I'm getting a little confused, because this started out as a discussion about a woman who was claiming to be a practicing Catholic but was going against Church teaching.
On the civil level, I have no problems with homosexuals. If I had homosexual neighbors, I wouldn't hassle them about it, and could get along with them fine. If they asked my opinion, I would be honest with them, but otherwise would not preach to them. And I would not see their behavior as harmful to me.

reply from: xnavy

homosexuality does harm to the one practicing it, even the red cross recognizes this as it won't accept blood from practicing homesexuals.
in the old testament it is considered an abombanation, sorry i have a hard time spelling that, in the new testament it is considered a product
of a reprobate mind. what does this have to do with abortion???

reply from: abc123

How does homosexuality harm another person?
In what clear, easily definable, conventional way does it harm another human being?
Smurfy,
You can look at the HIV/AIDS epidemic as one of the ways that homosexuality harms others. If you've ever been to a homosexual pride event or parade you will can see half or fully nude men and women on the streets with whips and chains and even sex acts being performed in the streets. Google the Folsom Park celebration in SF. I have heard about bathrooms at parks in Florida that have taken over by men meeting up in the stalls having casual carefree sex....the homosexual community preach tolerence towards them and their lifestyle but have zero tolerance if you go against what they belief. It is so sad that we have false prophets in churches today telling people that they can continue living this lifestyle and be a child of God. We are bringing up generation after generation now teaching them that homosexuality is "normal" and I've even heard a message of a group that came to a HS students in Colorado from a few years back telling the students to feel free to have sex with another boy or another girl or whatever you feel is right. Just go ahead and experiment to see what feels good to you.....
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20

reply from: jujujellybean

Where do you get Sola Scriptura? Is that in the bible?
Our faith isn't in fallible men, it is in the infallible Holy Spirit that guides our church and the pope. And it is only infallible in matters of faith, morals, and doctrine, and many other limitations apply.

reply from: abc123

Cracrat,
It is not my business how my mother worships her God. Like I said, it's between her, her priest and God. I suspect she'll value her priest's advice and what God says to her more than words I pass on that I've heard from a stranger over the internet.
I hope she does value what God says over my words. But it is God's very Word that says the sexually immoral will not inherit the kingdom of God. Give her these scriptures from God's Word and maybe her eyes will be opened to the truth. It is an abomination to the Lord.
Leviticus 18:22, 20:13
I Corinthians 6:9
I Timothy 1:10
Revelation 21:8

reply from: Altari

Recursive definition!!!
Well, if you're guided by the Holy Spirit, and I'm guided by the Holy Spirit, I suppose we aren't that much different, now are we?

reply from: Banned Member

God tells us what is wrong, so that we may know not to do it.
Sin is an offense against God, not merely a sin against our neighbor or ourselves.
The homosexual offends God by calling God a liar when God proclaims man's purpose in His creation.
They think they are like God, when they profess to know the difference between good and evil.

reply from: Salos

I'm not a Catholic. I just stopped by to say I enjoyed the joke you used to start the discussion.

reply from: GratiaPlena

I figured with a name like that...but it's also important to "die Catholic."[/quote]
Of course, and that's what I intend to do.
Are you still in the Church?
Yes, and I couldn't love it more!

reply from: jujujellybean

Recursive definition!!!
Well, if you're guided by the Holy Spirit, and I'm guided by the Holy Spirit, I suppose we aren't that much different, now are we?
Tell me: do you consider the bible the only authority here? Like we have tradition...I know you don't. How come Sola Scriptura is something that you have to follow? If your only authority on earth is the bible, then you believe in Sola Scriptura because the bible tells you to????

reply from: Smurfy

HIV/AIDS is spread by sex. Heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual people have sex.
It is not exclusive to homosexual men and women.
You cannot blame HIV/AIDS on homosexuals.
If homosexuality was accepted as ordinary, normal behaviour and all the prejudice and fear surrounding it did not exist, there would be no need for these parades. They're designed to fight back against the bigotry and idiocy of small minded, fearful homophobes and to force people to recognise homosexuality as a reality.
And there are parks where men hide in wait for women to rape. Men who sit in bars and spike drinks to date-rape women.
I'd prefer that men were having consentual sex and getting it out of their system, rather than looking for female victims to rape.
On that note, if they want to have casual, carefree sex, then how are they different to men in bars, picking up women for a one-night stand? If homosexuality was more accepted, they wouldn't need to use public toilets to find a partner. They could go to any bar and pick up another man, instead of having to suffer the stigma of walking into a gay bar and being labelled a 'Faggot'.
What of homosexuality in women? Is that not wrong, because they don't engage in this behaviour? Again, you bigots only focus on the men, trying to use them as the reason why homosexualityis wrong.
What about lesbians?
Hmmm?
Which is exactly what Christianity preaches!
How ironic!
I'm glad we're finally starting to gain some universal tollerance towards people.
Why should it matter who you choose to have sex with? Does it make your pal Bob or Stan any less the person he was before you found out he was homosexual? Would you suddenly stop liking Susan or Marcia if you knew they were a lesbian?
Why? They are not harming anyone.
Jesus preached love and tollerance.
It's interesting that you can't follow his example.

reply from: Smurfy

So does smoking, having a poor diet, tennis, playing the violin, etc, etc.
So why don't smokers, unhealthy people, tennis players, violinists and all sorts of other people go to hell for 'harming' themselves.
Personally, all the homosexuals I know are clean, healthy people.
They practice safe sex or are in a long-term relationship.
How are they harming anyone?

reply from: lukesmom

I have been Catholic since birth although you are given a choice to be Catholic or not when as a teenager you CHOSE to be confirmed into the church. Being a Catholic, I am also a christian. I have no problems with other religions, christion or otherwise. Afterall, all steeples point up. As with any orginization there are rules and one of the most basic of Catholic "rules" is the right to life, however and when ever God gives it. If you can't abide by the rules you have no obligation to stay. As has been said over and over and over again: there is no such thing as a prochoice Catholic. Period.

reply from: Altari

I think one "?" would have sufficed.
As far as this part
This is a RECURSIVE DEFINITION. "Only believe in the Bible, because the Bible says to only believe in it."
Tradition was instituted by fallible men who did not hear and experience the works of Christ. As written in Romans
Do you see anything about confession, communion, confirmation, baptism, etc, in that passage? It was very clear and straight forward. Believe in Christ, emulate Christ, accept Christ as your Savior. I have no need of a priest or institution to confirm my faith. The Trinity is all I need for that.

reply from: jujujellybean

Do you see anything about confession, communion, confirmation, baptism, etc, in that passage? It was very clear and straight forward. Believe in Christ, emulate Christ, accept Christ as your Savior. I have no need of a priest or institution to confirm my faith. The Trinity is all I need for that.
That isn't the point. And seriously, that isn't logical. You are basing your whole religion on that one single quote? What about stuff I responded to Abc123's stuff? That is also the bible, and that stuff is just as credible as what you just said. Basing your who belief system on one thing is dumb. I mean, someone could find a quote that in some way was twisted to support killing in the bible and say it was clear and straight forward. Don't you agree that doesn't make sense???THE WHOLE bible is valuable, but when you grab a quote and just slap it down and say this is all we should believe, you aren't using God's word properly, I wouldn't think.
BTW Jesus also said "Only those who eat my body and drink my blood will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." Sounds pretty clear and straightforward to me!!!!

reply from: jujujellybean

So does smoking, having a poor diet, tennis, playing the violin, etc, etc.
So why don't smokers, unhealthy people, tennis players, violinists and all sorts of other people go to hell for 'harming' themselves.
Personally, all the homosexuals I know are clean, healthy people.
They practice safe sex or are in a long-term relationship.
How are they harming anyone?
No one is saying she is going to hell, I don't think. We can't condemn people! We just know it is a sin against God, plain and simple.
There is a movie my mom watched, and the guy was a former homo and he said that he would try to convince anyone considering it to not do it, it isn't worth it. The diseases and things effected the rest of his life, and he said it was awful. It hurt him very much.
And playing the violin is harmful? How?? I play and it hasn't hurt me!!!

reply from: Teresa18

Sure, not all people that get HIV/AIDS are homosexual, but 70% of those who have AIDS in the U.S. are gay/bisexual.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200802/CUL20080215b.html

reply from: jujujellybean

thank you teresa we can always count on you to give us sources!!!

reply from: Smurfy

Why is it a sin if it doesn't do any harm?
That's just utterly ridiculous.
Why is there this stupid misconception that being gay gives you diseases? If you practice safe sex and don't slut around, you'll be fine. Heterosexual people also catch diseases.
Again, why are we fixating on homosexual MEN?
Very similar to tennis, it can lead to elbow problems long-term.

reply from: Smurfy

So this is what makes it a sin?
Funny, AIDS didn't exist back in the biblical days.
So that's a VERY poor reasoning for it being a sin.

reply from: jujujellybean

Why is it a sin if it doesn't do any harm?
That's just utterly ridiculous.
Because its called there are certain rules, of nature, you don't break. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
Why is there this stupid misconception that being gay gives you diseases? If you practice safe sex and don't slut around, you'll be fine. Heterosexual people also catch diseases.
Again, why are we fixating on homosexual MEN?
I don't know. It started that way I guess. the fact is, "MENS BODIES WERE MADE FOR WOMENS BODIES. Will you really dispute that?
Very similar to tennis, it can lead to elbow problems long-term.
Whatever. The old ladies i know that play, including my teacher, don't have any.

reply from: abc123

Smurfy,
Homosexuality is a sin because God said it is a sin. Our finite minds may not be able to understand why God makes the judgements He does but as a Christian I put my faith and trust in Him. Every type of sex is sin except one, and that is as husband and wife. You can add other sexual sins in with homosexuality also as sins that are spoken against in the bible. (fornication, adultery, beastiality, incest etc.....) You see our society wants to pick and choose which one's they feel are okay and which one's aren't. Most of our culture today could care less about fornication and adultery but may say that beastality and incest are wrong. God's law is supreme. Most of these verses are in Leviticus chapter 18 if you want to read them. A society that is as sexually active as ours outside of marriage is going to be a society that is going to reap what it sews which we are seeing today by HIV/AIDS and numerous other STD's.

reply from: NewMom

Sexual abstinence is the practice of voluntarily refraining from some or all aspects of sexual activity. Common reasons to deliberately abstain from the physical expression of sexual desire include religious or philosophical reasons (e.g., chastity), material reasons (to prevent conception [undesired pregnancy] or Sexually Transmitted Disease (STD) transmission), psycho-sociological reasons (e.g., clinical depression, social anxiety disorder), negative past experiences, or to conform to legal injunctions.
Sexual abstinence has been debated since antiquity, both in terms of same-sex and opposite-sex relationships. See Platonic love.
to read more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abstinence

reply from: abc123

jujujellybean,
'Being catholic' doesn't save anyone. Did someone tell you that? They are wrong, that is not what the church teaches. We believe in works. If you try to live like Christ, and do the best you can, then you will hopefully get to Heaven. If you become a Catholic, then you are not automatically saved. But having just a personal relationship and living an awful life doesn't do you much good either.
I want to address the statement 'we believe in works' first. You are right, no religion can save you; it is only by the blood of Jesus that we are saved. We are saved by grace through faith (Acts 15:11, Ephesians 2:5 & 2:8, 2 Timothy 1:9). Now when you say 'we believe in works' it sounds like you are saying that the grace of Jesus isn't enough, you have to add works to it. It does say in James 2:14 - 26 - that faith without works is dead. Good works are the results, not the cause of your salvation. Commentator Matthew Henry said this about the scripture in James: This place of Scripture plainly shows that an opinion, or assent to the gospel, without works, is not faith. There is no way to show we really believe in Christ, but by being diligent in good works, from gospel motives, and for gospel purposes. You see I don't have to be 'hopeful' that I will get into heaven, I know for sure. Obeying the law isn't going to save you. The Galatians got into this exact problem. Read Galatians chapter 3.
Do you believe in a Hell? What about sins that we have, does God just forget about them automatically? He is a just God, you know.
Yes I believe in hell. You have to understand that sin is the reason that Jesus Christ had to die on the cross. For your sin, my sin and the sins of the world. If God had not sent Jesus to this world to die for us we would all be going to hell because without Jesus as our mediator we would have no hope. When one is saved he or she is saved from the wrath of God. So in regards to purgatory and indulgances what scriptures are the Catholic church using to justify this teaching? It says in the Catechism of the Catholic church that an (1471) indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven....Why is a forgiven sin still being punished....The blood of Jesus is not enough for the Catholic church.
Do you ever ask living people to pray for you? Well, if you believe in Life after death, then those people are just as able to pray as we are! Esp. Mary, the mother of our lord.
Yes I ask living people to pray for me. Scripturally where do Catholics get this idea that we can pray to the dead? Do Catholics also ask others such as dead relatives or other biblical men and women to pray them? I only hear about prayers to Mary. Jesus Christ is the one whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. (John 14:13-14) No where in scriptures is Mary or anyone else referred to as a co-mediator with Jesus.
Regarding the sinlessness and virginity of Mary
Jesus came into this world to save sinners not the righteous. Luke 18:19 - No one is good except God alone. Romans 3:23 All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All have sinned, including Mary and no one is good except God, not except God and Mary. Again no scriptures back up this claim that the Catholic church is teaching.
In Matthew 1:24-25 it says: And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and (B)he called His name Jesus. So it is seems that she was a virgin UNTIL after Jesus' birth, then later she wasn't. In Matthew 13:55-56 it speaks of Jesus' brothers and sisters. When Jesus returned to His hometown Nazareth He was teaching in the synagogue, they were asking if this was the capenter's son (Joseph) and His mother called Mary and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? These 2 sections of scripture clearly teach that Mary was not a virgin her entire life. By believing this Catholics are believing that portions of the bible are not true.
The Mass
The last supper was a Passover meal. Christ's blood was poured out for our sins at the cross. The bread and wine are symbols of the body and blood of Christ (I Corinthians 11:23:25) Again in the Catechism of the Catholic Church #1378 is titled 'Worship of the Eucharist'. Catholics are breaking the 1st and 2nd Commandments by doing this.
Juju I don't know how deeply you have studied about your church but I urge you to read your bible with an open heart and mind, asking your priests and peers the hard questions about the things we are discussing here. Make your ultimate litmus test on all things the Bible not your priest or the pope. What if the next pope was pro-choice, would you still be a catholic? Is your faith in God or man?

reply from: abc123

Augustine,
Jesus Christ is the Foundation of the Church not Peter. I Corinthians 3:11 says: For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

reply from: Banned Member

Matthew 16:18-19 And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kepha, meaning rock in Aramaic), and upon this rock (Kepha) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
What do you think that this means?
Matthew 1:24-25 When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home. He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.
Or if you will...
And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. And he knew her not, till she brought forth her first born son: and he called his name Jesus.
As for works, the Catholic Church believes in faith, and works. Not one or the other. Just we believe in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
The work of Jesus Christ on the Cross gives us the chance for Salvation, it was not an act of mass absolution. Our sins are still forgiven when and only if we are repentant and remain in s state of grace. One may struggle, even know that Jesus is Lord, but still go to hell, if they are in a state of sin. We are not saved by our word that we believe, we are saved by the balance of our life in faith and our sins. Many will cry Lord, Lord and Christ will not know them.
Do I presume that acb123 believes in "once saved, always saved"? Because I dont. I believe that the most hardened sinner may find salvation and the most seemingly holy may yet fall.
It is one thing to think that Catholics pray to the dead. But might not the dead pray for the living? Might not we ask for their prayers to the same Jesus that we pray to? If those that are accepted into the grace of God upon physical death are dead as you say, than there is no Christ, and you and I have no God, but only wishful thinking. But that is not the case. No one has supplanted Jesus Christ as savior.
Jesus proclaims "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." and as a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. They had said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"
If the followers that walked away from Jesus believed that He truly meant that His blood was true drink, and His body was true food, and were offended those words, than those that remained, His apostles must have believed that Jesus Body and Blood were true food and real drink. The true disciples of Jesus Christ did not take His word to be symbolic, they took the Lord at His Word.
It took 1500 years for those that walked away from the Lord to return, and they are still mistaken. For 1500 years, the Christians only believed that the Eucharist was the true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, the real presense of the Lord.
I reccomend that you read Jesus of Nazereth by Pope Benedict XVI.

reply from: Faramir

A text without a context is a pretext.
One-liners from the Scriptures can be distorted to mean anything.

reply from: Altari

Orly, faramir? Then how can you claim the absolute authority of the "Peter is the Rock" statement?
We won't even go down the "Get behind me, Satan" road again...

reply from: Banned Member

The Catholic Church predates the Bible in both tradition and authority. It does not need or rely upon the Bible alone for its authority.
For nearly 400 years there was a Catholic Church, the Christian Church, whose head was the Bishop of Rome, the See of Peter, and there was as yet no canonized Bible.

reply from: Smurfy

As a non-christian, I don't.
Would someone care to quote the passage that says homosexuality is a sin?

reply from: Smurfy

Sorry, I believe in evolution.
There was no 'Adam and Eve'.
Yes, I will dispute that. Homosexual women are far better sexual partner for women than men, since they know what feels good for women and what doesn't. The same is true for homosexual men. They know what feels good for guys, since they have a male body also.
I don't really care. The point was that many non-sin activities can be harmful to your body.

reply from: Banned Member

Sorry, but homosexuality borders on beastiality. Homosexual contact makes the human body nothing other than an animal, or worse, an object. The human body was not meant to used as a living breathing sex toy. The only correct sexual function is between a man and a woman. Groping and using the body, and its members as it is used in homosexual sex, is unnatural.

reply from: Smurfy

Incorrect. Homosexuality isn't exclusively defined by having sex with people of the same gender. I have two dear gay male friends who are madly in love with each other and only very rarely have sex ( a bit like an old married couple). It's just as much about love and attraction as being heterosexual. Lesbian relationships, in my opinion, are far more loving and beautiful than hetero relationships.
You seem fixated on the physical side of things. You may have an issue of some sort.
If homosexuality is so unnatural, then why do 1500+ different species do it? It would seem that it's pretty damn natural if it's happening throughout nature.

reply from: Banned Member

If a homosexual couple has gay sex even once, it is unnatural. To even think it is disordered. Two males or two females cannot be in love, they can only have a disordered concept of attraction and companionship. Romantic love cannot exist in homosexuals, only disordered lust.
As for your 1500 species, that is the belief of scientists with a disordered aganda, the normalization of homosexuality by trying to claim that it occurs in nature. Again, beastiality at work. A human is an animal, an animal is a human, a man is a woman, a woman is a man. That's what these advocates would have us believe, not only to support homosexuality, but radical animals rights views as well.

reply from: Smurfy

I challenge you to go and meet a homosexual couple who profess they are in love. You'll find that what they feel for each other, how they treat each other and how they express it - is identical to heterosexual love.
If romantic love cannot exist between homosexuals, then how can it exist between heterosexuals? If you remove the genitalia from people it is simply one person who is attracted to another. Gender is a very secondary concern to the interaction of minds.
As I said, you're very fixated on sex, lust and the physical.
I think you have an issue that needs resolving with someone trained in the correct field.
The 1500 species is an observed fact. Nothing more.
You can read into it what you will, but that won't make your conspiracy theory true.

reply from: Banned Member

I have known plenty of homosexual couples who professed to be in love. Most I have known end up in other homosexual relationships after they find someone new that they find more attractive, not being able to tell the difference between love and disordered sexual attraction. Their relationships are not identical, they cannot under any circumstances of nature consumate their relationship with children.
Romantic love exists between a man and woman, because that is their nature, the very design of their spirits and bodies working as one. There is true unity, in both spiritual and sexual love. Their love actually creates something.
It is the homosexual community, in their mutual rationalization societies that try to explain same sex environments and disordered relationships as being normal. You can govern what people say, in certain situations, but you cannot govern the human heart that knows a correct moral law. Homosexuality is disordered.
We are not mere neutral creatues with mechanical organs applied that distinguish us. We are men, and women in our cells and in our souls, the whole human being.
Human beings are not animals, no matter how much you think that behaving as animals would make us such.

reply from: Faramir

I have an infallible teaching authority to back me up.
The Catholic Church was not built on the New Testament. It was built on the Apostles and preceded the New Testament compliation by 300 years.
But that "Peter is the Rock," is irrefutable, even by looking at scripture only, and there are many Prostestant scholars who accept it.
To Peter was also given The Keys to the Kingdom. The Apostles who discovered the empty tomb deferred to Peter. The risen Christ told Peter to "strengthen the brethern" and the most glaring and obvious sign that he was to have a place of prominence was that he was told to "feed my sheep."
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007fea6.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp

Some good stuff about Apostolic Succession:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

reply from: Teresa18

While it is a sin, I was speaking only about AIDs. You said:
I then said:
Then I posted the article.

reply from: Teresa18

Sin can sometimes be harmful to the body, but the important thing to remember is that it's harmful to the soul.

reply from: pl4l

hey i'm new here I just learned about abortion (I knew about it before) in my thelogy class at school. I never really knew the methods that abortionists did, but once I found out I was disgusted. Anyways i'm also a strong Roman Catholic.

reply from: Faramir

Okay, anybody can SAY they are a Catholic.
You need to pass the test so we can be sure you are one of us:
What does "Immaculate Conception" mean?
Who was the first pope?
What Sacrament does a Bishop have that a member of the laity does not?
How do you do the secret Catholic handshake?

reply from: Smurfy

If there is no soul, there is no harm.
You think there is a soul. I don't.
There is no more evidence of a soul than there is of a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

reply from: Banned Member

Very good Smurphy, you have just justified murder. If a person is a thing after all, than killing them would have no consequences. Once the person is dead, what are their damages? Can a thing have rights? What is a dead person really missing after all if they are dead? They wouldn't know if they had lived 8 minutes or 80 years.
I can make a Flying Spaghetti Monster if I wish, design it to my own liking to perform as I wish.
Can you make a soul Smurphy?

reply from: Smurfy

This sounds like the vast majority of heterosexual I know of. Men climbing the 'attractiveness' ladder. Ditching one girlfriend for a better model.
It also exist between men and men as well as women and women. The romantic gestures I've seen hetero guys make pale in comparisson to those made by homosexual men. Gay guys are more sensitive and generally more open and loving.
Sometimes it creates something.
Anyway, technology is advancing; homosexual women will soon be able to get pregnant with the child of her partner. A child born of two women.
It's no more disordered than liking legs over breasts.
I don't believe in the soul, so that point is irrelevant.
Actually we are. We're just a very intelligent animal. Although, we're not absolutely certain about that. For example, dolphins could in fact be smarter than us.
'Behaving like humans' has done untold damage to the environment. We could take some good lessons from the rest of the animal kingdom.

reply from: Banned Member

There is no more moral excuse for adultry than for homosexuality. If someone is dating a person however, and leaves them for someone better looking, it may be shallow, but it is not immoral.
You mean some kind of freak designed by science?
Sure, because they act more like women.
I apologize, but the actual act of homosexual sex is simply disgusting.
You probably rate trees above human beings.

reply from: Smurfy

Nope.
Murder harms the body. Therefore it is wrong.
That's some seriously disturbed thinking you have there, that if something has no soul, it's okay to kill it.
Not having a soul doesn't make a person a 'thing'. They are still a person.
Nope, you can't. Your FSM would just be a false idol, not the real deal. Would your FSM be able to create mountains, trees and midgets from nothing?
Sure. Here's an ASCII soul:
,dP""d8b,
d" d88"8b
I8 Y88a88)

Y, a )888P
"b,,a88P"

reply from: Smurfy

You are such a narrow minded bigot.
*Shrug* That's a good thing.
What are you apologising for? Did you do it and not like it?
What's disgusting about two women caressing each other until they climax?
Well, the majority of trees are over 6 feet high, so they ARE above us. DUH!

reply from: jujujellybean

Believe me, a lot. It's just that no where in the bible does it say we should ONLY have the bible. Do you have a quote that says the Bible should be the only thing to guide me? I have studied ALL the questions you just asked me here. These are the most common questions and misconceptions about our faith ever. I am happy to answer them, because I have studied all of em lots.

reply from: Altari

OK. First, I'll answer your question as presented. Why be Sola Scriptura?
The Bible is the word of God. The Bible gives the clear intentions of Christ, and of his first hand followers.
"T"radition is a man made idea of how things should be done. The RCC has some fairly skewed views on the world, many of which don't jive with the Bible. I DO base my entire faith upon one passage. The others serve as a guideline of how that faith is meant to be lived. Think of it this way : You get a box in the mail with a bunch of parts, a note that says "put it together", and text only instructions. It will be very difficult to put the pieces together, because you have no idea what they are supposed to look like together. However, if you're given an image, you'll know what you're assembling and it will be easier to understand the instructions.
The Gospels tell us what Jesus looks like. The command to "confess with your mouth" (or, more correctly, emulate Jesus) is the "put it together note". The remainder of the descriptions are the instructions. Each piece independent of another will make little sense, but when you put it all together your job becomes quite clear.
The RCC confuses these instructions with "T"radition and dogma. Christianity isn't rocket science, and Christ, and his followers, had no need for a far reaching institution. Early churches were developed as a support system. The RCC has taken the idea of the support system and turned it into a mandatory way of life.

reply from: Altari

OK, continuing...
You keep asking a recursive question. These questions cannot be answered. You are asking if I believe in the Bible because the Bible tells me to. Very similar to you believing in the RCC, because the RCC says it's the only official Christian authority.

reply from: jujujellybean

Why do you believe in the bible???
Again, you say that the Bible is the only authority. Well, than anything else outside the bible must be false, and not followed. Therefore you don't believe in the Church because apparently, it isn't scriptural. Sola Scriptura isn't in the bible, and so must not be true. Simple.
I don't believe in my Church because they say they are the only true church. That's dumb. I believe in my Church because it is the Church Jesus instituted, when he made Peter his, well, the pope, and left him the Church on earth. I believe in the Church that is referred to in Revelations, the Catholic Church. Believing in something because it tells you too is very unwise. I truly want to know: why do you believe in the bible?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I thought the founder of the Catholic Church was described in Acts 8:9-24 "But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one; to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God." It is my understanding that Simon the Sorcerer, claiming to be the great power of God, was the first Pope.
It's my understanding the early Church had to flee into the wilderness to escape persecution (the mountainous valleys of Europe). However, the Catholics often chased them down and destroyed whole villages, not allowing so-called Judiazers (obervers of Sabbath, Passover, etc) to live.
The Catholic Church is described in Revelation as the whore (unfaithful) with the blood of saints on her hands. The Church is suppose to keep herself a virgin for the marriage to Christ; but the Catholic Church has failed in that respect. However, the Catholic Church may be oblivious to the fact that there are a remnant in the world dedicated to the Messiahship of Jesus.

reply from: jujujellybean

I thought the founder of the Catholic Church was described in Acts 8:9-24 "But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one; to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God." It is my understanding that Simon the Sorcerer, claiming to be the great power of God, was the first Pope.
Where did you hear that??? That is the first I have EVER heard of that. Peter was the first pope, Jesus told him what he bound on earth would be likewise in heaven and what he loosed on earth would be likewise in heaven. If you read any doctrine, you would know that is not what the Church teaches. Peter was also the one upon which Jesus said he would build his Church.
It's my understanding the early Church had to flee into the wilderness to escape persecution (the mountainous valleys of Europe). However, the Catholics often chased them down and destroyed whole villages, not allowing so-called Judiazers (obervers of Sabbath, Passover, etc) to live.
All the apostles were martyred, except for John. They didn't hide. Where is your source???
The Catholic Church is described in Revelation as the whore (unfaithful) with the blood of saints on her hands. The Church is suppose to keep herself a virgin for the marriage to Christ; but the Catholic Church has failed in that respect. However, the Catholic Church may be oblivious to the fact that there are a remnant in the world dedicated to the Messiahship of Jesus.
No its not. That would be your interpretation of what it says. Where does it say the Catholic Church is the whore? Direct bible verse, please???

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

No its not. That would be your interpretation of what it says. Where does it say the Catholic Church is the whore? Direct bible verse, please???
Why is there more evidence for Simon Peter being the first Pope as opposed to Simon Magus? They are both mentioned in the Bible. I see no evidence for Simon Peter being the first Pope of the RCC. Maybe Peter's crew is the little flock and Magus' crew the big organization that whored around with man's government. Where is your evidence that Peter was a Pope of the RCC organization?

reply from: Banned Member

Where did you get the Bible? Where did it come from? Do you even know? Did you know that there were 39 Popes before the Bible that you read existed, before it was canonized? Did you know that the King James Version, and New King James Version like the Douay Rhiems are both based upon St Jeromes, Latin translation known as the Vulgate? Did you know that Jerome's Latin translation was comissioned by a Pope?
Someone has been reading the Gospel of Rick Warren haven't they?
I don't recall that Jesus said to Peter that He would build His support system upon Peter. Nor did Jesus ask for thousands of churches. Jesus Christ built one Church, upon Hid Apostle Peter, known as Simon Barjonah. Jesus isn't the rosk, Jesus the Church, His body in the real presense in the Eucharist! Did you know that the real presense in the Eucharist was celebrated by Christians more than 250 years before the Bible?
When Jesus was revealing Himself in the Eucharist, in the breaking of the Bread, in the Mass, you as yet had no Bible. It is the wisdom of the Church, moved by the Holy Spirit, that gave us the Bible in a written form that we know as the New Testament.
Upon whose authority is the Bible the only authority? The Catholic Churches authority gives is the Bible and much more! Sacred Tradition, moved by the Holy Spirit! Without the Catholic Church, you would have no Bible.
ACTS 8:19-23
When Simon (Simon Magus, a sorcerer and essentially a side show artist) saw that the Spirit was conferred by the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money and said, "Give me this power too, so that anyone upon whom I lay my hands may receive the holy Spirit." But Peter (the first Pope) said to him, "May your money perish with you, because you thought that you could buy the gift of God with money. You have no share or lot in this matter, for your heart is not upright before God. Repent of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, your intention may be forgiven. For I see that you are filled with bitter gall and are in the bonds of iniquity."
You GodsLaw4Us2Live have completely distorted Scripture to attack the papacy and the Catholic Church. Maybe that is what your "church" taught you to do? I don't know.
You, like many others, distort the Scriptures for you own gain and your own version of the truth, NOT Gods!
Your Joyce Meyer, and Alistair Begg, and Jeremiah Wright are the Simon Magus' of the world today. How many million Christian books are written by people with little or no theological background, while the Catholic cathechism and the teachings of the Church are based on the Bible, and real history of the Church, not your remedy of "physician cure thyself".
How many books has Joyce Meyer sold while she encourages people to go church shopping if their particular church and its preacher don't excite you or tickle your ear to your fancy?
You, and other so-called Christians, have discarded the perfect sacrifice, the lamb unblemished, the Christ in the Eucharist, the Son of God, as well as the altar and the cross, for the preachers pulpit and the words of fancy talkers! Peter believed in the real presense, that is why he, like the other Apostles stayed, while the others walked out.
Jesus Christ, one Church of one heart and mind, the Catholic Church. For 2000 years the Catholic Church has been the Church of Christ, and will remain the Church of Christ, long after your roadside crackerjack churches have turned to dust.
We await the prodigal sons and daughters to come home. They long for the truth, they bear much of the knowledge, but they cannot find the fathers house. How did they become so lost?

reply from: Faramir

You can't be more insulting to Catholics than calling our Church a "whore"!
You don't have a clue what you're saying here.

reply from: Banned Member

ACTS 8:31-36
Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him. This was the scripture passage he was reading: "Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth. In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth." Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, "I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?" Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him. As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?"

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Augustine: Pretty heavy stuff Augustine. You call those not in the Catholic Church prodigal sons who are lost and cannot find their Father's house. Your words make it clear that the Catholic Church is the one and only Way.
Farimir & Juju: Many books have been written (by Protestants) about the Church having to flee into the wilderness during a time, times and half a time. Many authors interpret this time away from mainstream society as 1260 years (3 1/2 years x 360 days per year). Seems to me the calculation could instead be nearer 1300 years time during which the Catholic Church achieved great political power. They were in bed with the Roman Empire (thus the term whore). If you didn't believe in the Pope or Catholic positions you were a heretic and enemy of the Holy Roman Empire. Heretics were handed over to the authorities for torture, and, if they didn't repent, eventual execution. Have you ever heard of the Inquisition? True Christians headed for the hills during this bleak period of history, part of which is called the dark ages. The fleeing of the Church into the wilderness and the actions of the whore (the great rich false church) are in Revelation. Protestants have little to boast of, since Revelation says the Whore's offspring are also harlots; a refernce that the Protestant churchs would conduct themselves in a manner similiar to their mother Church.
Hey, the Sacrifice of the Passover Lamb (Jesus) is next week. Most calendar's list Passover; the day on which our Passover Lamb's blood was shed. Because of his shed blood, God will pass over the sins previously committed. But maybe you forgot Genesis 14 that said we are suppose to use the sun and moon to mark days, months, years and seasons. (A day ends at sundown and a new month begins with the new moon). God has said, you shall observe the Passover at it's appointed season, the 14th day of the first month in the spring (some Jews observe the 15th day). Accoring to Augustine, the lost prodigal sons need to look to the Catholic Church, their man calculated calendar that ends a day in the miidle of the night, or starts a month at various random times, and use the Catholic Church's calendar calculations for our salvation. I prefer to use Sola Scripture rather than any proclamation of the misguided Catholic Church.

reply from: nancyu

REALLY? I find that hard to understand that you are both catholic and prochoice.... one of the catholic rules ( i guess you would call it) is to be prolife. You can't be prochoice and Catholic...doesn't work. But hey we'd love for you to join us...but first you have to support life.
I'm not a practicing Catholic, I'm one by default of being christened into the Church. I'm pro-choice by way of opposing the ban of abortion. I oppose the ban because I don't believe it'll happen and I don't believe it'd reduce abortion rates as far as I'd like to see them reduced.
I absolutely support life. More so than some other "pro-lifers" on this forum.
This is very interesting. You believe there would be more abortions if it were outlawed? More than 3000+- per day?

reply from: Banned Member

I don't recall that Jesus said to Peter that He would build His support system upon Peter. Nor did Jesus ask for thousands of churches, or the more than 12,000 Christian denominations that exist in the United States alone. Jesus Christ built one Church, upon His Apostle Peter, known as Simon Barjonah. Jesus isn't the rock, Jesus is the Church, His body in the real presense in the Eucharist in the Church!
Any book written by a Protestant is written more than 1500 years after Jesus founded the Catholic Church. And keep in mind that the Church was founded by Jesus Christ, not Peter. You accept Apostolic Authority the moment you pick up the Bible. The Bible has it's authority by virtue of the Church.
Easter is observed by the churches of the West on the first Sunday following the full moon that occurs on or following the spring equinox (March 21).

reply from: cracrat

No. Undoubtedly if abortion were to be outlawed, there would be a big drop-off in numbers. However, the remaining abortions carried out would be extremely hard to stop. I think that the most effective way to minimise the number done is to tackle the demand for the procedure rather than supply, which is where you're all coming from.
The same is true with many other things, drugs for example. The United States has spent hundreds of billions of dollars over the last century trying to tackle the supply, seemingly without giving too much thought to proper ways of tackling demand (Just Say No is pointless propaganda, not education).
Apparently this minor disagreement with some of your more vocal members makes me an indefensible, infantcidal, baby-hating borthead scanc, hell bent on destroying all future generations. Oh well.

reply from: Faramir

No. Undoubtedly if abortion were to be outlawed, there would be a big drop-off in numbers. However, the remaining abortions carried out would be extremely hard to stop. I think that the most effective way to minimise the number done is to tackle the demand for the procedure rather than supply, which is where you're all coming from.
The same is true with many other things, drugs for example. The United States has spent hundreds of billions of dollars over the last century trying to tackle the supply, seemingly without giving too much thought to proper ways of tackling demand (Just Say No is pointless propaganda, not education).
Apparently this minor disagreement with some of your more vocal members makes me an indefensible, infantcidal, baby-hating borthead scanc, hell bent on destroying all future generations. Oh well.
But why can't it be both?
Why not make it illegal and get the big reduction you concede would happen?
And then continue the work in reducing the demand and reasons for aborting.

reply from: yoda

That's a huge admission for someone who opposes the criminalization of abortion.
Prolifers have been trying to do everything in their power to "tackle the demand for the procedure" for 35 years, and where has it gotten us? No, your suggestion is to only "tackle" a small part of the problem, and ignore the greater part which is immune to all efforts to stop it so far. Surveys prove that most abortions are done for reasons that are unaffected by such efforts.
How about murder, that's a better parallel. We've done everything as a society that we can think of to prevent murders, but they still happen. So are we wasting our time prosecuting them?
To me, what it makes you is self-contradictory, and "apathetic", as you once described yourself.

reply from: cracrat

Because if it is made illegal, from that moment on every ounce of effort you can bring to bear will neccessarily be directed toward defending the new law(s). There will be no effort left to try to change people's minds. Look at where you are now, all your time and energy directed toward getting changes in the law which are no closer now than 35 years ago when this campaign started.
I don't see endless self-flagellating attempts to create unrealistic change as effective or worthwhile. Much better to make the changes that are possible and save the lives that we can. IMO.

reply from: cracrat

That's a huge admission for someone who opposes the criminalization of abortion.
Thanks.
Prolifers have been trying to do everything in their power to "tackle the demand for the procedure" for 35 years, and where has it gotten us? No, your suggestion is to only "tackle" a small part of the problem, and ignore the greater part which is immune to all efforts to stop it so far. Surveys prove that most abortions are done for reasons that are unaffected by such efforts.
I don't believe that to be the case. All the protests and campaigns I have ever seen or heard of have been to outlaw abortion, not provide and maintain other options and to make everyone aware of them. Granted, I have mostly seen wha happens over here but from the tenor of people on this site, it doesn't seem to be much different in your country.
How about murder, that's a better parallel. We've done everything as a society that we can think of to prevent murders, but they still happen. So are we wasting our time prosecuting them?
No you haven't. There are something of the order of 12000 gun related deaths in the USA annually. Most of which happen when two people argue, or kids are messing about, or stupidity takes hold and there is a firearm to hand. Advocating gun-control seems to be a bit of a looser for candidates seeking office. Very few are premeditated acts of violence intended to kill.
Comparing these to abortion is fatuous at best. Every abortion is a pre-meditated act intended to bring about a defined end, ie end of pregnancy. Nobody accidentaly falls into a clinic whereupon a doctor accidently does what (s)he does. If a person really wants their pregnancy to end, they will find a way of doing it regardless of what the law says. The difference would be that if done legally, at least these people are in the hands of trained professionals. If done illegally, they are in the hands of 'someone they met down the pub'. If you change people's attitude to abortion/pregnancy, regardless of the availability of abortion, they will not choose it.
Prosecuting murderers is not a waste of time. It is usually pretty obvious if a murder has taken place because a body turns up or someone stops turning up to work. Prosecuting illicit abortion providers would be next to impossible because there would be no corpse to be found, no person to be reported missing. By your own admission there was not one single prosecution pre-RvW. Why would that be any different today?
To me, what it makes you is self-contradictory, and "apathetic", as you once described yourself.
I described my fellow Brits as apathetic, not myself. The efforts I expend on trying to affect the changes I would like to see in the world are considerable. I am one of the last people you could justifiably describe as apathetic.


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