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A Celebrated Pregnancy

by: speck

I wish the best to this family, and am glad they have found happiness!!!
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=4581943&page=2

reply from: 4given

The process of parenthood is natural- The process that one goes through to mutilate their body to fit who they desire to be (male instead of female vice versa) is obviously not. Should their desire to exploit their unique situation create a controversy amongst those of us that are conservative? As a parent, I have to say that this person should not procreate. I can only imagine how my God feels. Oprah- it is about the ratings. I find it peculiar that you "wish the best to this family.." yet want to deprive so many others of "family". What is your understanding of abortion? Why and how do you advocate the killing of human beings through abortion? What forms of abortion are there? What do you support and why?

reply from: speck

I am unsure where you have gotten your information.
Could you please show me where I have advocated the killing of human beings and where I have stated a want to deprive others of family.

reply from: Smurfy

What if said person is a hermaphrodite or suffers from something like Klinefelter's syndrome? Shouldn't they adjust their body to what they feel is right?

reply from: jujujellybean

weirdest post. Kinda strange. I mean, I'm glad the child will live and all, but that "guy" seriously needs some help. Soon. Fast. Now. ASAP. He needs it QUICK!

reply from: Smurfy

Why does he need help?

reply from: faithman

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare

reply from: Smurfy

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare
Doesn't load.

reply from: faithman

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare
Doesn't load.
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare

reply from: Smurfy

All you do is post the same dead link.
Your entertainment value is waning.
Might be no. 3 for the ignore list.
Now, let's get back on topic.
Why does he need help?

reply from: LolitaOlivia

I think faithman's finally lost it.

reply from: faithman

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare

reply from: faithman

you don't have to lose your.....http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby5.html Over it.

reply from: Smurfy

Why does he need help?
(The man in the article, not Faithboy)

reply from: faithman

All who think smurfy should kiss my http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby10.html please http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby12.html

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I wish the best to this family, and am glad they have found happiness!!!
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=4581943&page=2
Men do not have babies. Neither can a woman become a "former woman". Is this a celebrated pregnancy because a woman who claims to be a man is having a baby? The woman is mentally ill. People should not encourage her in her vision to "be a man". Are the people writing headlines "Man who was formerly a woman having baby" smoking wacky weed? She's a woman, period. What's this mention of man? You look like a three year old posting such make-believe fairy tale stuff. Get the woman help from a mental health expert.

reply from: 4given

I should not rush to judgement. I apologize. If you are pro-abortion, then you advocate the killing of human beings, hence depriving others of family. I did ask the following questions. I am curious.
What is your understanding of abortion? What forms of abortion are there? What do you support and why?

reply from: 4given

It is my understanding that a team of physicians/ especially one that specializes in urology, will attempt to decipher what the attended sex was supposed to be- (whether or not there are ovaries etc) I know a person that was born without ovaries and genitalia. They "made her into a female" because reconstructively, it was less challenging. Should the modern scientists work to develop a method in which she can gestate? No. Had she been born with ovaries, much like the person in this story, then yes. My problem is that this person was not satisfied with the body they were born into, and altered it. That right there should mean that the unnatural method in which he became pregnant should not be celebrated.

reply from: xLoki

I think you're just threatened by this person. If he's happier as a man, why can't you just let him live as a man in peace? You don't even know this person. Why does this offend you so?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

This post is about a woman having a baby. The peculiar item is that she refers to herself as a he. Why are most of the posters on this thread referring to her as a he? It's shocking how people just buy into things.
If I love kittens and puppies, so much so that I want to be one; If I tell you I am a kitty or puppy; will you indeed refer to me as kitty or puppy? Will you play the game and make me feel like a real kitty or puppy?
The woman is really sick.
We are bond-servants. We are assigned our job and position long before birth. If you were born a woman that is the role you serve God in. You cannot redefine yourself.

reply from: speck

I wish the best to this family, and am glad they have found happiness!!!
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=4581943&page=2
Men do not have babies. Neither can a woman become a "former woman". Is this a celebrated pregnancy because a woman who claims to be a man is having a baby? The woman is mentally ill. People should not encourage her in her vision to "be a man". Are the people writing headlines "Man who was formerly a woman having baby" smoking wacky weed? She's a woman, period. What's this mention of man? You look like a three year old posting such make-believe fairy tale stuff. Get the woman help from a mental health expert.
It's a good thing I like fairy tale stuff
It would appear the US Government does as well, considering they are the ones that allowed this man to be legally a man, therefore allowed to marry a woman in an area that does not allow same sex marriages.
I would not encourage nor discourage his choice of sexual identity, as it is, IMO, what makes him happy.
I am curious if you have done any research on people who are trans gendered?
You are Pro-Life are you not? Do you not wish to see this man happy and alive? Are you aware of the suicide rate for trans gendered people who are pre-op? and/or forced to live as the sex they do not feel is right to them? Would you rather they continue to live the way you feel they should and kill themselves?

reply from: xLoki

Because HE identifies as a HE. I am being respectful to him because it does not harm ANYONE for him to be called/viewed as a "he".
Give me a break. This reminds me of that ridiculous argument against gay marriage: "But next they'll be wanting to marry their hamster!"
It's quite condescending, this attitude of yours.
You are hardly qualified to make that diagnosis.
Irrelevent. Not everyone believes in your god. And since you can't provide proof for his existance no one should be required to follow his backwards rules.

reply from: speck

I should not rush to judgement. I apologize. If you are pro-abortion, then you advocate the killing of human beings, hence depriving others of family. I did ask the following questions. I am curious.
What is your understanding of abortion? What forms of abortion are there? What do you support and why?
There are many forms of abortion.
As for my understanding, my profession, working in a hospital, deals more with acute care patients, elderly and disabled. However, my understanding is not on the fly. I continue to search for knowledge and will continue to do so for as long as it takes.
As for my position, for myself, I would never abort. As for others, I cannot say if I believe abortion should be legal or illegal, as I am honestly undecided.
So I guess fence sitter is where I stand right now.

reply from: speck

What if the intent of God was for this man to be just that.....a man.
What if it is by human hands, messing with the environment, testing bombs etc etc that switched this?

reply from: faithman

Just don't fall on http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby8.html
I should not rush to judgement. I apologize. If you are pro-abortion, then you advocate the killing of human beings, hence depriving others of family. I did ask the following questions. I am curious.
What is your understanding of abortion? What forms of abortion are there? What do you support and why?
There are many forms of abortion.
As for my understanding, my profession, working in a hospital, deals more with acute care patients, elderly and disabled. However, my understanding is not on the fly. I continue to search for knowledge and will continue to do so for as long as it takes.
As for my position, for myself, I would never abort. As for others, I cannot say if I believe abortion should be legal or illegal, as I am honestly undecided.
So I guess fence sitter is where I stand right now.
Just don't fall on http://!!]http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby8.html

reply from: speck

Because HE identifies as a HE. I am being respectful to him because it does not harm ANYONE for him to be called/viewed as a "he".
Give me a break. This reminds me of that ridiculous argument against gay marriage: "But next they'll be wanting to marry their hamster!"
It's quite condescending, this attitude of yours.
You are hardly qualified to make that diagnosis.
Irrelevent. Not everyone believes in your god. And since you can't provide proof for his existance no one should be required to follow his backwards rules.
Agreed with just about everything you have said.
Again knowledge is key.
The amount of therapy that a trans gendered person has to go through before being allowed surgery is extremely extensive.
To state that a trans gendered person is sick and needs help is quite funny if you have knowledge instead of ignorant baseless claims.

reply from: Smurfy

Gender isn't based solely on the physical. There have been many cases where the 'experts' have assigned the wrong gender to the child - and it shows very quickly.
Without considering the psychological aspects of gender, you're just guessing. Flipping a coin and hoping you win.
Why not? Why should she be denied the right to gestate if there was a way in which she could possibly do so? Because she was unfortunate enough not to be born with the right organs?
That is direct equivalent of saying that a blind person shouldn't be allowed corrective surgery to see, or fixing the legs of a crippled person!
That is absolutely abhorrent.
You are saying that if you are born 'broken' then you should just accept it and that you have no right to correct your problems.
As I said, people have all sorts of problems with their bodies that they fix. I don't see you condemning them. Should a child with a cleft palette be allowed surgery? Should a person with a massive winestain birthmark not be allowed skin grafts?
Should a person with a lump the size of a baseball on their forehead not be allowed surgery?
Should a person with no nose not be allowed a reconstruction?
If a person strongly feels that they are the wrong gender, then they should certainly take the steps necessary to correct their body. The psychological damage from having a different gender identity to your physical gender is immense. People suicide over it.
I suggest you study the subject for a while and educate yourself on it, since you know almost nothing.

reply from: Smurfy

Genitals alone do not define gender.
The person in the article is a man. He is male, regardless of which chromosome configuration he has.
Go and look at his picture. Does he look like a woman to you?
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/16842/original.jpg

reply from: 4given

I am not doing anything, nor would I desire to be the person who has control over that. You are right however, in stating that wrong gender has been assigned, as the person I know as a female, born a hermaphrodite, is actually living her life as a male, and has been obviously more characteristically a male since I first met her at the age of ten.
Because it was not meant for her to. Being born a female, means that one's female body was designed to carry a child. It is quite simple.
Now that is a stretch. Blindness can be partially corrected through surgery. Paraplegia can not. Equating a natural condition or an unfortunate happenstance that leaves one medically challenged, to whether or not a male should be able to experience pregnancy is as contemptible as it is ludicrous.
No.
And why would I? My nephew has had surgery to correct his cleft palette, just as my friend's daughter, who has had 14 surgeries thus far. My friend's husband had his birthmark removed.. Any of the cosmetic procedures you listed are uniquely important and should be performed if so desired. Surgery to correct a cleft palette is medically necessary, as breathing, eating issues, problems with ears and speech, create a painful and challenging circumstance.
You don't know what I do and do not understand on this topic. Back to the original topic- A person that has altered their body to become a male, should then not seek the natural course of pregnancy, as a female does .Being transgendered is in fact a psychological condition and should be treated as such. What do you think about mentally challenged adults? Should they be granted the freedoms of procreation? Should a Down Syndrome couple be free to have children?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Genitals alone do not define gender.
The person in the article is a man. He is male, regardless of which chromosome configuration he has.
Go and look at his picture. Does he look like a woman to you?
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/16842/original.jpg
You are talking about a woman who is going to have a baby. Is this serious that a conversation can be going on about this pregnant mother being a man? Whoever heard of a man or a he giving birth?
People go to different lengths to create the desired goal they wish for in their mind. They may start talking or walking like a member of the opposite sex. This may not be enough. They may start dressing as the other sex, change their name to the opposite sounding gender and physically try to alter their appearance by hairlength, makeup, etc. They may try to reach the ultimate attainment of their goal by having a "sex change" operation.
The chromosomes do define who you are; and genitals are a main evidence of gender.
You would have us believe gender is simply one's own self decision. That what one says he or she is, is what they are. The rest of us are suppose to believe what they say and play the make-believe game.
We are slaves to God. He made everything for His purposes. For a woman to try to turn herself into a man is rebellion. Also, it is rebellion to use the lower intestine and anus (designed for the important life perserving waste elimination job) as a substitute for a woman's vagina.
To say that the ideas men and women come up with are perverse is an understatement.
I don't care if the woman has changed her name to Thomas, put on a man's business suit and received a crew cut. She is a mother and woman.
Did you know the Bible says women are to have long hair and men short hair? It also says men and women are not to dress in clothing used by the opposite sex. The Bible says you shall not have same sex relations. All these things are prohibited; the Bible says it is confusion to engage in such behavior.

reply from: Smurfy

Blindness (say, missing your eyes) can't be fixed any more than a uterus can be created out of nothing. My point is this: if the technology becomes available, why shouldn't a blind person get new eyes and a woman without a womb go and get one?
Your stance makes no sense. You're saying that 'it was not meant for her'. The exact same argument applies to the blind person or the paraplegic.
If the technology is available, then why not?
Why shouldn't a blind person get eyes, or a woman a uterus?
And yes, you ARE saying that if people are born 'broken' they shouldn't be allowed to be 'fixed' in order to feel complete. That's simply awful.
"God made you that way. So suffer in silence and do nothing."
Why are you not condemning the majority of cosmetic surgery, yet you're saying SRS is wrong? It's just another cosmetic procedure.
As to the last...
Oh. My. Goodness.
Are you saying transgendered people shouldn't breed because they are the equivalent of Down's people? That trans people will pass on their 'tranny genes'?
That's disgusting.
Again, you seem to know nothing about transgendered people. It is treated as a psychological condition and treated accordingly. No person gets SRS without extensive psychological evaluation.

reply from: 4given

If she is a woman, she has a womb, correct?
I actually did not say that. Read again.
I did not state this. I don't want anyone to suffer- especially needlessly.
I have no problem with people deciding to mutilate their bodies. Is it wrong, IMO, yes. In all honesty, I don't care.
Fool. I asked you a question. I made no such equation, as that is deeply insulting to the many Down's men and women I know and love. Are you intentionally acting a fool, or do you truly lack depth? I asked you a question. I played your petty game answering your list of questions. You should do the same. Until you do so, you are nothing more than a troll and will be treated as such. You say Down Syndrome people are disgusting? You aren't worthy of their spit and spoil! Again. This isn't a game. I asked you straight forward questions. I answered yours. If you don't know, say so. I was asking you an honest question.

reply from: All4Life

People will go to great lengths to justify to themselves the sins they have commited, knowing full well that they are doing wrong. God's laws are written on our hearts, that's why we are all compelled to do the right thing. You know, no one had to tell me it was wrong to kill people, or lie, or call Downs syndrome people disgusting. That is the torment of someone that has convinced themselves they are supposed to be a member of the opposite sex. Their heart cries out at the travesty of their sin, and the lies they've convinced themselves of. It's quite simple really. It all stems from the flesh trying to justify what kind of horrible things it's been up to.

reply from: Smurfy

Bloody hell. Now you're saying I'm insulting Down's people by equating them with transgendered people?
That's saying that trans people are somehow 'lesser' than Down's people.
You are vile.
What do you advocate for trans people? Locking up a person in an institution and medicating them because their gender identity doesn't fit their body?
There is nothing wrong with this MAN carrying a child.
You can't stop him. It is his right.

reply from: Smurfy

No one called Down's people disgusting.
I said that saying trans people shouldn't breed is a disgusting thing to say.

reply from: 4given

EXACTLY! Unfortunately I believe you are addressing an amoral being, who is not capable of grasping the truth herein. I appreciate your take on it however, and just as abortion, in whatever means one tries to justify it, in our heart, good vs. evil, it will always be a dark sin.

reply from: faithman

No one called Down's people disgusting.
I said that saying trans people shouldn't breed is a disgusting thing to say.
What is disgusting is that you advocate http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby12.html

reply from: 4given

And they/ you are above them?!
Given your inability to read and address accordingly... the feeling is mutual.
I don't advocate anything. That is their problem, not mine, as I stated, I don't care.
This confused being can do whatever she wants to legally. I don't intend to "stop" her. Again, it (this story) serves no purpose but to distract others from the real issue at hand- the selfish and violent choice to abort an innocent being.

reply from: Smurfy

It's amusing that there is so much animosity over a person being pregnant, simply because of their gender identity.
It's quite telling that you can't be happy for them and celebrate the fact that another life is coming into the world.
Instead you fixated on it being 'wrong'.
Bigot.
P.S. he's not 'confused'. Gender confusion is the precursor to transitioning. People transition because they are no longer 'confused'.
As I have said twice before; you clearly know nothing about the subject.

reply from: 4given

Who has animosity over this person being pregnant? You seem to be confused. I think you will find that no one cares- Most are here because they care about the innocent blood shed 4000 times per day at the hands of a greedy abortionist. You are nothing more than a troll, here to distract others from that ugly truth.

reply from: speck

Again, look at the suicide rate for pre op Transgendered people.
The heart cries when a person cannot be who they know they are. It does not cry because you perceive that God says so.
IMO, anyone who attempts to judge on Gods behalf seems to me, very arrogant.

reply from: All4Life

I said nothing of my judgement, I had nothing to do with naming the sins of the world. I'm merely shining a light on it. I was just as quick to justify my own sins before I recognized them for what they are. Like I said, it's written on your heart, I don't need to judge anyone or anything. You're quick to say I'm judging, but if you were to take a closer look, you've judged me. And anyone can pull little bits of the Bible out of context to back up any point they want to make, but you'll only really understand what I'm saying when you've read the whole thing. That a person could esteem themselves so highly as to know that, despite how God knit them together in their mother's womb, how they were supposed to be made. God doesn't make mistakes, and He certainly never promises anyone a life without hardship and pain. That is what refines us as people. The extremely difficult things in life are there for us to triumph over. When it comes to availing ourselves of the capabilities of modern medicine, surely these things are only available by the grace of God, so I say it's there for that reason. But where do you draw the line as far as what needs to be fixed? Is being born a women something that needs to be fixed?

reply from: Smurfy

Then why are people commenting?
If you don't care, yet you fire off comments for no reason, that seems FAR more trollish than sticking up for the rights of transgendered people.
You stick with defending babies, I'll defend the transgendered.
There is nothing 'troll' about sticking up for the rights and beliefs of others.

reply from: Smurfy

It certainly is if that 'woman' has the gender identity of a man.
Why would God be so cruel as to make a person have a female body and predisposition for wanting to be a man?

reply from: 4given

Fair enough. Post on a trans gendered forum.. Don't worry. I won't follow you there to distract you from your issue of importance!

reply from: Smurfy

I already have one open in a browser tab, as it usually is.
I would suggest that if you don't want me 'distracting' you, then leave this issue alone on here?
Makes sense, yes?

reply from: speck

I am unsure why you do not ask if I have or have not read the whole Bible. Instead you assume.
What you appear to be failing to realize, is that you interpret the Bible as your own unique individual.
Now multiply that , by how many people are on this earth, who have read the Bible and now you have many interpretations of the Bible, as we are all unique.
We as humans all make mistakes on a regular bases. Who can say if your interpretation of the Bible is or is not a mistake. This goes for anybody/everybody, including myself.
You say to follow your heart.
I too believe in the heart of the law. However, it is my interpretations of the heart of the law and what my personal limits are to what is moral or immoral, just as everyone else.

You say:
"But where do you draw the line as far as what needs to be fixed? Is being born a women something that needs to be fixed?"
I do not feel that is a line that you or I or anyone else have a right to draw.
Unless we ourselves have walked in another's shoes, we cannot even fathom what a person has endured or how they felt/feel. The only one who will EVER know this, is the individual and God.
We can empathize but I do not feel it is fair to say we can sympathize.
Take pregnancy for an example. Ask ten different women how they felt during a pregnancy, and you will receive answers that may be the same or similar or may be different from each individual, but that does not mean I can tell another person exactly how they will feel during their pregnancy, according to how I felt .
You can have 2 women in labor and one has a higher pain tolerance and can give natural birth, another needs an epidural because their pain tolerance is lower.
Pain tolerance is not just physical. And what you can handle does not mean that everyone can handle something the same way you do.

reply from: All4Life

Thank you 4given. Wisdom finally enters and shakes away the confused like a pine tree shakes away the clinging snow in the warmth of the springtime sun. It makes me wonder, no actually it doesn't. This forum is here for a purpose, so thank you 4given for keeping that focus. I can rejoice in the thought that another baby will be born alive into this world, afterall that's why we are here right?

reply from: All4Life

Speck, why I would say that you have not read the Bible in it's entirety, is exactly that argument. Having read the Bible, there is great difficulty on my part in believing that anyone could come up with an interpretation that varies greatly from someone else. The Bible is well and truly clear in what it says, and if there is any wiggle room due to "interpretation" then you have not read the whole Bible. The Bible is absolutely clear about our fallen nature and the nature of sin. There is nothing personal about it. That is the beauty of it. It's so extremely simple that the youngest of babes can understand. It's when you start to try and find differences in the interpretation that , if you are honest with yourself, or I with myself, you are looking for wiggle room. A loophole. Some way in which we can escape the judgement that we so clearly deserve from God. What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong, and I think that despite whatever circumstances we find ourselves in, we have no excuse for doing anything but what is right. Is it possible to always do right? Of course not, and I'll be the first to admit that I am wretched. But because God gave His only Son for us, I know I can stumble and He will help me up. Everything else is an excuse, or a justification. It's our nature to have excuses, and to reason and justify. But God knows we can do better, and expects us to.

reply from: speck

Again, this makes no sense for the many of us who have read the whole Bible, and some still remain Atheists, and others divide into denominations.
What you deem clear, is what is clear to YOU. You are not everyone.
You perhaps find more clarity in sins and speak more of sins, others may find more clarity on compassion and forgiveness and speak more of that.
It does not make one more right or wrong than the other as a whole, but by the individual as to what is held of higher importance in their individual heart and what is Gods biggest message to us all.
I too believe we are all wretched. We have all made mistakes and will continue to do so, and hopefully learn and grow from our own mistakes.
IMO it is about ones OWN personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ. Not about telling others how to have that relationship and force that relationship by means of scare tactics or demeaning the person.
I would not want my child to be forced to love me and respect me and be told by others my child has to do this for me.
I would not want my child to be ridiculed for rebellion against me, by others, as it is my relationship with my child and my child's relationship to me, and to me, no one has a right to interfere in our personal relationship. Especially when others can give the perception that I would turn my back and condemn my child whom I love and hold at such high regards, and would in fact never turn my back if my child came to me.
I want my child to CHOOSE to do those things based on my love/compassion/forgiveness/discipline/wisdom/kindness/truth for my child.

reply from: yoda

Don't get too feisty there, FMan, you might catch something.

reply from: yoda

Nah, it means you're a proabort. A prolifer would support making elective abortion a criminal act, and you don't. No doubt where you stand.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It certainly is if that 'woman' has the gender identity of a man.
Why would God be so cruel as to make a person have a female body and predisposition for wanting to be a man?
It appears we've met the "hero" of the story, a true diversity change agent like I learned about in Corporate training. The crusader who fights for the rights of a woman to be a man or a baby-killer. One who will fight againt the narrow-minded (bigeted) restrictions against killing and remaking one's sexual identity. One should expand their minds, and be more open to crushing in the heads of babies and sticking objects up one's anus so they can fulfill their dreams, and satisfy themselves in their unrestricted liberties. Down with the narrow-minded who would restrict killing their neighbor or outlawing obscenity.
My former employer (whom is on a diversity drive) and I parted ways.

reply from: faithman

Don't get too feisty there, FMan, you might catch something.
Do you think the borties are smart enough to click the blue text? You know they ain't the brightest bulbs in the chandalier.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

All4Life said:
Having read the Bible, there is great difficulty on my part in believing that anyone could come up with an interpretation that varies greatly from someone else. The Bible is well and truly clear in what it says, and if there is any wiggle room due to "interpretation" then you have not read the whole Bible.
Speck said it's not clear.
Jesus is the author of the Bible, the entire Bible. The Scripture says he did not speak without using a parable. His disciples (students) asked him why this was. Jesus said he spoke in parables so that the multitudes would not understand. It is written that God has turned his back on us for a little while. Mankind, a stubborn and rebellious crew, has been allocated a number of days to try things his own way. God has a hands off policy while mankind does his work. Some are called at this time to get ready to be rulers and teachers, and their eyes and ears are blessed because they see, hear and understand. But to others, this is not given. And while many are called, even then, few are chosen.

reply from: speck

I do not believe I said the Bible is not clear to me and how and what I perceive to be clarity, but for some and many.
Again, if the Bible is clear to different people yet that clarity does not match another's, who's clarity is right? Should you judge another's clarity as wrong, when in fact it could be your perceived clarity that is wrong?
Again:
For the lowly may be pardoned out of mercy
but the mighty shall be mightily put to the test.
If one truly feels that their view is mighty and superior, and cannot be humble and meek, with an understanding that all perceptions can be an error, I would hope one is ready for their test.
For myself, I see a vast difference between those who are broken and humbled by the law and those who are proud and hardened and feel they have an entitlement.

reply from: cracrat

I thought Moses wrote great swathes of the Old Testament, the words he was given by God. The Apostles wrote their gospels, the records of their experiences with Christ. St Paul certainly wrote a bunch of the letters.

reply from: cracrat

GodsLaw4Us2Live, are you a homophobe? Did God make a mistake when gay people were born that way?

reply from: sander

Do you have any credible scientific proof they were born that way?

reply from: cracrat

Do you have any credible scientific proof they were born that way?
what would you accept as credible and scientific?

reply from: sander

Do you have any credible scientific proof they were born that way?[/
what would you accept as credible and scientific?
Peer reviewed studies, a gene isolated, things like that.

reply from: Smurfy

Where did you get this crap from?
If you're talking about transgendered people, sexuality is a different thing to gender identity. One can transition from male to female and still be attracted to women.
'Remaking one's sexual identity'
Yeah...whatever. Good luck with that ignorant claptrap.

reply from: cracrat

Do you have any credible scientific proof they were born that way?[/
what would you accept as credible and scientific?
Peer reviewed studies, a gene isolated, things like that.
See:
http://www.geocities.com/southbeach/boardwalk/7151/biobasis.html

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/bio301d/Topics/Gay/Text.html

http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/RootWeb/npr_letters_on_the_biological_ba.htm

American Journal of Psychiatry, 2000, 157(11), pp1843-1846
"In accord with findings from prior twin studies, resemblance for sexual orientation was greater in monozygotic twins than in dizygotic twins or nontwin sibling pairs. These results suggest that genetic factors may provide an important influence on sexual orientation."
Human Genetics, 2005, 116(4), pp272-278
"There is no one 'gay' gene. Sexual orientation is a complex trait, so it's not surprising that we found several DNA regions involved in its expression.
Our best guess is that multiple genes, potentially interacting with environmental influences, explain differences in sexual orientation.
Our study helps to establish that genes play an important role in determining whether a man is gay or heterosexual."
Cell, 2005, 121, pp785-794
"We show that male [gene] splicing is essential for male courtship behavior and sexual orientation. More importantly, male [gene] splicing is also sufficient to generate male behavior in otherwise normal females. These females direct their courtship toward other females (or males engineered to produce female pheromones).
The splicing of a single neuronal gene thus specifies essentially all aspects of a complex innate behavior."
Science, 1993, 261(5119), pp291-292
"The role of genetics in male sexual orientation was investigated by pedigree and linkage analyses on 114 families of homosexual men. Increased rates of same-sex orientation were found in the maternal uncles and male cousins of these subjects, but not in their fathers or paternal relatives, suggesting the possibility of sex-linked transmission in a portion of the population.
DNA linkage analysis of a selected group of 40 families in which there were two gay brothers and no indication of nonmaternal transmission revealed a correlation between homosexual orientation and the inheritance of polymorphic markers on the X chromosome in approximately 64 percent of the sib-pairs tested.
The linkage to markers on Xq28, the subtelomeric region of the long arm of the sex chromosome, had a multipoint lod score of 4.0 (P = 10(-5), indicating a statistical confidence level of more than 99 percent that at least one subtype of male sexual orientation is genetically influenced."
Archives of Sexual Behaviour, 2002, 31(1), pp129-143
"Recent scans of the human genome reveal that some gay males share a genetic marker for homosexuality on the X chromosome. One avenue through which genes regulate homoeroticism is by instructing the brain to develop in a sex-atypical manner."

reply from: lukesmom

What if said person is a hermaphrodite or suffers from something like Klinefelter's syndrome? Shouldn't they adjust their body to what they feel is right?
Klinefelter's syndrome causes infertility which is actually one of the first symptoms. Don't really know what this has to do with this thread.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/klinefelterssyndrome.html

reply from: lukesmom

I wish the best to this family, and am glad they have found happiness!!!
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=4581943&page=2
If this man has a womb than technically he is really a she with manufactured man parts. Just because she dresses as a man or alters her sex organs as a man, doesn't mean she is REALLY a man but instead a woman mascorading as a man. Wierd but hey, whatever.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I thought Moses wrote great swathes of the Old Testament, the words he was given by God. The Apostles wrote their gospels, the records of their experiences with Christ. St Paul certainly wrote a bunch of the letters.
There is a reason Jesus is referred to as the Word, the Word of God. The first verses of "The Revelation to John" illustrate how Jesus is the author behind the book.
Revelation 1:1-2 "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw."
Jesus referred to himself as the "I AM". The "I AM" or his representative angel spoke with Moses at the burning bush. The English Standard Version makes it clear that Jesus is the one who went with Israel in the wilderness. Moses did not come up with the material for his books. The process revealed in Revelation 1:1-2 is how we came to have the Bible. Jesus revealed it, as desired by God. Jesus made it known by sending his angel to Moses. The human servant took pen to paper; but the revealtion came from Jesus.
The Bible said men wrote the Scriptures as they were moved by God. Jesus had oversight over the Bible.

reply from: 4given

Media Deception: "Miraculous" Pregnant "Man" is Really a Woman
Paving the way for the next wave in the battle against the family - an attack on gender itself
Commentary by John Connolly
BEND, Oregon, April 4, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The mainstream media pushed the story of Thomas Beatie this past week, billing the story as the 'miraculous' male pregnancy. Our readers may have been among the thousands of people across the country to notice the startling news headline that took the media by storm on April 1 (was this date a coincidence?), following Beatie's appearance on the Oprah Winfrey show and an interview in People magazine.
If this story really were an instance of an unexplained pregnancy in a male, it might really be newsworthy. But the whole story is a giant deception by the media in order to forward the homosexual and transsexual agenda.
The fact of the matter is that "Thomas Beatie" is really Tracy Lagondino, a lesbian woman who underwent transsexual surgery that cut off her breasts, and who decided not to alter her reproductive organs.
The mainstream news media has decided to cover the story, universally referring to Beatie as a man, and proclaiming "her" pregnancy a miracle. Even the normally politically incorrect and reliable DrudgeReport has been consistently referring to Beatie as a "pregnant man". Beatie has been able to grow a beard due to a testosterone regimen, adding to the deception of a male pregnancy.
What we need to understand is how this story fits into the sweeping agenda of the forces gathered to destroy the family.
Homosexual lobbyists have somehow succeeded in many nations in persuading or bullying governments into recognizing same-sex couples legally, one focus being securing the "right" to raise children for themselves.
At the same time schools are introducing mandatory programs to indoctrinate children with a homosexual understanding of families. Hence, it has become clear that the homosexual movement does not so much wish to do away with the concept of family, but rather to twist and warp it until it means something totally subjective.
"Thomas," the ex-beauty queen, proudly said that being pregnant didn't make her feel less of a man, and that the moral of her story is that "wanting to have a biological child is neither a male nor female desire, but a human desire." Trouble is, men just do not and physically cannot bear children, no matter how much a few might desire to do so. Desire is not reality.
As the attacks on traditional marriage begin to succeed, the next stage in the homosexual offensive is the attack on gender itself. The total mutability of gender and identity has begun, and stories like this one are forced down the throats of readers everywhere with the expectation that they will be gullible to believe that families are whatever two people want them to be. LifeSiteNews has reported a number of times in the past about attempts to deconstruct gender via the United Nations and in other forums (see http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2004/mar/040323a.html)

And the proof is in the pudding. Hundreds of versions of the Beatie story have spawned across the internet and the world, even in such far-away places as New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, India and Thailand.
The UK press is all over the story, which even a week later is still in the top five most popular stories for the BBC. Beatie has become a miniature celebrity and poster-child-bearer for lesbian magazines. Dozens of YouTube videos have been uploaded, paying homage to the woman who is trying to convince the world that childbearing and family are things that transcend gender.
Even breastfeeding advocates, who should be showing outrage that a woman would give birth to a child denied breastfeeding because the child's mother has cut off her own breasts, are strangely silent on the issue.
It's not hard to tell that this whole movement is geared, as we have said, to deconstruct gender. The goal of the transsexual movement is "liberty," a freedom to call oneself a woman or a man depending on his or her feelings or whims.
The homosexual movement has promoted the belief that persons with homosexual inclinations are all born that way and a growing proportion of the public is accepting the theory without bothering to investigate the evidence or lack of for the claim. The transsexual threat is more ambitious: it aims for acceptance of the fantasy that someone can be born a woman in the body of a man, or a man in the body of a woman, or a man can be a mother, or a woman can be a father.
Can the public be led to accept this as well? Again, without any compelling evidence to support such an extremely radical notion? Could it be, as we yesterday reported Peter Kreeft stating, "Antichrist is now winning, because he has convinced most people to bypass that simple word: reason. Most people today "feel;" they no longer "think."'
This preposterous story shows that now the transsexual movement is gaining prominence in the anti-family crusade. All readers need to be aware that the next phase in the transsexual advance involves wholesale deception and manipulation with the full cooperation of the mainstream media.

reply from: Smurfy

I'm involved with the TS community; several people with Klinefelter's are also successful transsexuals, since they have a somewhat stalled puberty and react well to HRT. One might consider that having two X chromosomes would predispose them to female behaviour, yes?

reply from: Smurfy

That's ridiculous.
Anyone who has had anything to do with the TS community would know that getting TS people together to agree upon anything is like herding rabbits.
TS people simply want to live their lives free from prejudice and harm - after all, they are harming no-one.
This 'article' above is simply more conspiracy theorising from bigoted fundamentalist scaremongers, spewing their hate in the most convenient manner possible.
Leave TS people alone.
They are not harming you in any way.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

That's ridiculous.
Anyone who has had anything to do with the TS community would know that getting TS people together to agree upon anything is like herding rabbits.
TS people simply want to live their lives free from prejudice and harm - after all, they are harming no-one.
This 'article' above is simply more conspiracy theorising from bigoted fundamentalist scaremongers, spewing their hate in the most convenient manner possible.
Leave TS people alone.
They are not harming you in any way.
Mankind is One people. No person is an island. What one thinks and what one does affects others. These people who have chosen to become "transgendered" are sick and do influence other people's values, beliefs and practices. They are rebellious lawless people. We are required to serve God. They have rebelled and are adversaries. To uses Skippy's terminology, they are their own gods. They will do their own thing. They will ignore and work against God's purposes.
I've been put into a position of responsibility. I see how my work affects my children. If I work hard I can feed and clothe them. If I fight against perversion and obscentity such as the promotion of transgendered ideas, I can hand over a decent and just world to my kids rather than a world of perversion and weirdness.

reply from: jujujellybean

Sorry I didn't see this until now.
Whenever someone is so unsure of themselves, that they feel changing the laws of nature will help them, they need psychiatric help to rebuild self esteem or something. There are certain laws that just need to stay no matter what. Gender is one.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

God is the "Maker".
In Romans 9:20 is the question; "Why did you make me like this?"
Romans 9:21-23 responds to that question.

reply from: Smurfy

When the internal (mental) gender is completely at odds with the body, then the only psychiatric method to fix them would be to erase their personality and start from scratch (extensive electro-shock 'therapy' which is barbaric and cruel). Even then, there is no guarantee the same condition won't re-surface again.
Gender is not a 'law'. It's a sliding scale, from male to female, with everything in between. Very few people are actually 100% 'male' or 100% 'female'.

reply from: Smurfy

Plenty of people do not believe in your God.
How many times do we have to tell you this?
We are not required to server God. There isn't any proof God exists.
I see, you want the world to stagnate and die.
Fortunately, your 'kind' are a dying breed, so the world is quite safe.
Tell me, how do you 'fight against perversion and obscentity such as the promotion of transgendered ideas'?
By beating up trans people? By spitting on them on the street? By yelling at them and telling them they are 'obscene'?
You disgust me the most out of all the people on here, with your hatred and bigotry.
How are TS people harming you?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

A phobia is an unreasonable fear of something. I believe it is reasonable to fear the health consequences associated with sodomy. The vagina has a thick multi-celled wall designed for it's job. The lower intestine has a very thin wall that absorbs liquids into the blood stream. The health hazards associated with sodomy should be obvious. Many "gay" men die in their 40s after receiving STDs which are much more easily transmitted through anal sex as opposed to vaginal intercourse. Your anus and lower intestine were designed for a very important life preserving job. One who engages in sodomy destroys his own body. I will crusade against such damaging behavior.

reply from: Smurfy

1. Many homosexual men don't engage in anal sex. There are plenty of other ways to reach orgasm. Reaching orgasm isn't the be-all and end-all of sex either.
2. I take it then that you have nothing at all against homosexuality in females?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I get my instruction from the Bible. After stating that men and women have gone off-track, Romans 1:26-27, 32 says this: "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire for one another, men with men commiting indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error....and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but give hearty approval to those who practice them."
It is my understanding that God has ordained that women who engage in lesbian acts are worthy of death; that is, they will not receive eternal life. Therefore, I encourage them to return to the natural function; for God is gracious and merciful and will abundantly pardon the one who reconsiders and changes his or her ways.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I get my instruction from the Bible. The following Biblical verses are illegal in the Public Media in Canada. After stating that men and women have gone off-track, Romans 1:26-27, 32 says this: "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire for one another, men with men commiting indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error....and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but give hearty approval to those who practice them."
It is my understanding that God has ordained that women who engage in lesbian acts are worthy of death; that is, they will not receive eternal life. Therefore, I encourage them to return to the natural function; for God is gracious and merciful and will abundantly pardon the one who reconsiders and changes his or her ways.

reply from: Smurfy

So you will crusade against homosexual men because they might potentially engage in 'damaging behaviour'.
Do you crusade against homosexual women even though they don't engage in the same 'damaging behaviour'?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It's just plain unlawful according to Scripture. It is lawlessness; rebellion against the Creator who designed the functions of men and women. We were created for his purposes. Lesbian acts puts one in an adversarial role.
All my actions are made lawfully, with words. I don't know if it was you or cratcrat who asked if I beat up, spit on, or yelled at those who engage in same sex acts. It was probably cratcrat, a pretty extreme British fellow. He manufactures a lot of imagined material. Acts of violence commited against sodomites are unthinkable. All actions are to be done decently, lawfully and in order. Men and women were made to be given the highest degrees of respect. We should think of others as better than ourselves and serve them. And if they are engaging in some pretty poor moral behavior at this time, it is possible such people could smell the coffee later. A man is not to be window dressing. A man is to stand up for what is right and expose/put up resistance to what is wrong. Kids, other people, and society are counting on it.

reply from: Smurfy

Then why did you make the excuse about anal sex, then changed your reasoning when I mentioned homosexual women?
You said you crusade against homosexuals.
How do you do this? By picketing their homes? Throwing bricks through their windows? Hitting them? What?

reply from: cracrat

It's just plain unlawful according to Scripture. It is lawlessness; rebellion against the Creator who designed the functions of men and women. We were created for his purposes. Lesbian acts puts one in an adversarial role.
All my actions are made lawfully, with words. I don't know if it was you or cratcrat who asked if I beat up, spit on, or yelled at those who engage in same sex acts. It was probably cratcrat, a pretty extreme British fellow. He manufactures a lot of imagined material. Acts of violence commited against sodomites are unthinkable. All actions are to be done decently, lawfully and in order. Men and women were made to be given the highest degrees of respect. We should think of others as better than ourselves and serve them. And if they are engaging in some pretty poor moral behavior at this time, it is possible such people could smell the coffee later. A man is not to be window dressing. A man is to stand up for what is right and expose/put up resistance to what is wrong. Kids, other people, and society are counting on it.
I accused you of nothing. Such accusations would be grossly unfair and speculative. I just asked if you were a homophobe and if God had made a mistake in making gay people the way they are.
The bible says these people are worthy of death for their actions. Do you believe that is right or does your respect for life trump the teachings of scripture?

reply from: Faramir

Respect for life never contradicts scripture and vice versa.

reply from: cracrat

What have I said or done to make you describe me as extreme? I've been called many things in the past but never extreme. I've always rather thought myself to be a moderate liberal with respect to most things.
And what manufactured material have I invented? Accusations of that nature are liable to make me dislike you. I always try to discuss topics in the most intelligent manner I can. Inventing lies or false claims will nearly always be exposed and make people not listen to you even when you speak the truth, which is never helpful.

reply from: cracrat

Respect for life never contradicts scripture and vice versa.
The Bible does indeed call for homosexuals to be punished by death, as quoted by GodsLaw4Us2Live above. Doesn't strike me as respecting their lives.


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