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The Bond Between Mother and Child

I wrote this in the hospital for my son two days before he was born - wanted to share it.

by: NewMom

It's so hard to say in words how much you love someone.
You know it when you look into their eyes instantly and there is a certain haziness in the air
And time seems to stand still, frozen for a moment until your eyes pull away.
Every moment is neither dull nor dreary and both worlds seem to cosmically be in sync.
Then there are the unexpected moments, some bring fear, anger and sorrow.
Those are the most difficult to surpass, and only true love can ever bear witness to it at its clearest hue of reality.
When one is weak, the other stands strong.
When someone breaks down, the other is there with glue and tape to help mend the pieces.
The pieces sometimes don't always fit back together quite as well, but life does not move forward if they stay in one place forever.
Then there is Life, simple and pure.
Its everywhere in the smallest crevasses of the earth, and we forget sometimes to appreciate it.
Busy streets and the hustle of the work week enable us to lose touch with the little things.
Every day I try to stop for a moment and watch and listen and smell;
And just let all my senses be enabled at once.
I try to answer that call every time it comes as often as I can- it seems like my rightful duty.
To remember and sense the simple things.
Life - how do we describe it?
It's your little movements inside of me, growing more frequent and strong.
It is your dad's voice on the phone, so rich, deep, boyish and nasal.
The sound of my breathing; shallow breathy regular sounds.
It's his kiss on my neck - so soft, loving and familiarly comforting.
The cry of a newborn in the adjacent room on the ward.
With life comes pain.
It's inevitably impossible to avoid it no matter how much we try to stop it.
Its one of those cosmic forces that spins in an opposite bumpy gravitational pull and comes in cycles.
When we just start to forget what it feels like it rears its ugly head again, eclipsing our focus at the time.
No matter how much we prepare for it, we are never fully prepared for it.
When it comes we are stunned by its ugliness and puzzled by its intent.
Love helps to ease it and aids in blocking our natural receptors to it.
Don't forget that part.
It's important for acceptance.
As we go on, life suddenly speeds up!
Lights blur by in a colourful hazes streak.
Motions sounds, days, nights, years fly by.
Then it slows.
Breathing slows.
Movement slows.
The pain goes from nonexistent to a dull constant throb.
And we are somewhat back to square one, but changed somehow.
The pieces are a little loose as they fit together in some spots, but in others they are seamless like a fort.
This is when we know love has conquered, and again our senses align and we begin preparing ourselves for the next cyclic eclipse.
But we still need our sensual solitude.
And especially that someone with those familiar eyes to help us on our quest.
For what, we are questing for is another segment entirely but not separately
A compassionate hand, a hug or a kiss helps, sometimes even kind words.
Owen, these are my dreams for you.
I expect you to be courteous and respectful - we all slip up but learn the importance when we are faced with ignorance and disrespect.
Be loyal to your commitments and keep your internal priorities in tender perspective.
It's ok to quit as long as you truly have learned your lesson well and remember the experience.
Love yourself unconditionally as we love you - but don't confuse love with pride and arrogance.
Cherish your health and respect your body - when it starts to moan back at you, you'll think of why I said this.
Be open to new opportunities and experiences but be wise where they might lead you.
Be proud of all you do, and know how to accept criticism regardless if it's constructive or ill-delivered.
Do NOT under any circumstances live to please others.
People who live like that refuse to live with dust on the floor, and keep their skeletons erratically jumbled in the closet.
They accept no flaw or mercy at the slightest sign of intolerance, and in doing this push themselves off into another world entirely.
Be cautious though, and do not live too freely; if you do, it becomes impossible to relate to specific situations.
Live in accordance to God respectful of others regardless of their flaws;
Flaws are what make us human and at times at heart we all are self-knowingly intolerable.
Lastly, son:
Love like it's your only simple, pure intent.
After all, it truly is.
Mom
10:42pm, McMaster Hospital
January 6, 2008.

reply from: yoda

Very nice!
Isn't it nice when you can express your love for a child without any compromise to the death cult? How you can open up completely, and not have to hold back a little to keep from feeling too much guilt about a future abortion?
Isn't it wonderful to be free of that awful stench of death?

reply from: NewMom

Aww Yoda I missed ya. And very true. It is such an indescribable feeling to be able to open up your heart and your arms and love.

reply from: NewMom

Nothin from the proaborts? Sheesh. I didn't think anyone had anything to say.
Why? Because there is no way you can refute the bond between a mother and a child, and there's no way you can dehumanize and de-personify a living being two people created. Its nothing but a Life.
*holding my sword high, and going in head first*
~*Ash

reply from: cracrat

My mum tried to describe it to me once. She said there's no way I'd really understand until I had children of my own. When my sister was born (her first) and the doctor took her away to clean and wrap her up, despite being utterly exhausted from the labour, apparently my mum tried to get out of her bed. 'Where is that man going with my child, bring back my child, how dare you take away my child, etc.'. She explained to me that however much she love my father, it was nothing compared to this. It hit her in the chest like a mallet.
The thing she found most surprising is that when my brother was born (her second), despite having been through it all once already and thinking she knew what to expect, the strength of feeling knocked her for six all over again, if anything stronger than before.

reply from: xnavy

that is beautiful newmom and i know what you mean i have 3 children of my own and love all three equailly.

reply from: yoda

Exactly. I have a daughter who has swelled my heart a time or two. I just don't think you could get that feeling about a "clump of cells" though.

reply from: sander

Shame keeps them at bay, Ash.
Your writings are wonderful. Everything so beautifully said and shared. Thanks.

reply from: Teresa18

That's beautiful. The parts regarding pain are so fitting due to what happened. Keep that to share with your future children. It's a shame you won't be able to share it with Owen, but I think Owen is currently feeling the strongest, most pure kind of love imaginable. I wish the best of luck to you and your fiance.

reply from: Smurfy

I started reading it, but it was too Emo for my tastes.
Not really into that sort of loose poem format.

reply from: 4given

Vous encrassez et créature répugnante ! Vous manquez pour identifier la douleur profonde de la perte de son enfant. Vous n'êtes rien mais un gaspillage putride et fétide d'énergie. Pouvez vous réaliser qui vous êtes la la profondeur de votre dépravation avant que votre âme soit crachée dehors comme régurgitation amère qu'elle est.
....May you realize who you are the the depth of your depravity.. Have you not a shred of decency that you may momentarily forego your obvious need for attention, at the expense of a grieving mother?

reply from: Smurfy

Hiding your hatred and vileness in French is rather cowardly.
I simply answered the question honestly - it's too Emo for me to sit through and I don't enjoy that type of literature.
I'm not certain why you have such a problem with that.

reply from: 4given

I actually do not have hatred, but was being respectful to you. I can translate..
You foul and disgusting creature! You lack to recognize the deep pain from the loss of her child. You are nothing but a putrid, foul waste of energy. May you realize who you are the the depth of your depravity before your soul is spat out as the bitter regurgitation that it is.
So my show of respect for you was in vain.. My problem is your poor taste in offering an opinion up. Am I wrong to feel that the cries of this mother to her son are worthy of respect?! No. Your lack of respect was not only towards her as a grieving mother, but her child as well. How can you not understand appropriateness? Are you that self-consumed and ruthless?

reply from: Smurfy

Huh? Let me repeat:
I simply answered the question honestly - it's too Emo for me to sit through and I don't enjoy that type of literature.
I'm not certain why you have such a problem with that.
There is no 'lack of respect'.
A lack of respect would be telling the author that it is a steaming pile of crap - which I have no idea as to whether or not it is, since I didn't read past the first few lines.
You keep throwing around the word 'troll', yet you're sitting there trying to create drama from nothing.

reply from: 4given

Perhaps you failed to (deliberately or not)recognize her situation and the time she spent waiting, trying not to deliver her unplanned blessing..and her love note to the babe, she would not take home..
Creating drama?-I am showing respect in defense of Ashley, who I know can defend herself quite well. It is about respect and your failure to recognize and adhere to appropriate measures or behaviors.
Golden rule.. and if you can't say something kind...keep your foul to yourself!

reply from: Smurfy

I didn't read it, as I've said several times. When will you understand that?
I did however respond to NewMom's post, directed as pro-choicers, as requested.
Desist from this pointless stirring.

reply from: Faramir

Perhaps you failed to (deliberately or not)recognize her situation and the time she spent waiting, trying not to deliver her unplanned blessing..and her love note to the babe, she would not take home..
Creating drama?-I am showing respect in defense of Ashley, who I know can defend herself quite well. It is about respect and your failure to recognize and adhere to appropriate measures or behaviors.
Golden rule.. and if you can't say something kind...keep your foul to yourself!
There are plenty of things to criticize about what a prochoicer ACTUALLY SAYS.
But in this case, she didn't say anything unkind--just that she didn't read it.
I didn't read it either. I don't want to read something thant lengthy right now.
Abortion is bad. Abortion kills babies. Abortion is unjust. Abortion should be stopped.
Do I need to make it clear that I am NOT "pro abort" simply because I have pointed out that in THIS CASE Smurfy was unfairly crticized.
Do I need to make it clear that because I pointed this out that does not mean I support Smurfy's prochoice position?

reply from: yoda

Wow... this is truly amazing. This thread went from a beautiful poem that expressed a mother's love for her child to someone whining about being lumped with the proaborts because they defend them (even though no one had said a word to that person). What a let down. Just amazing.

reply from: faithman

All who think smurfy is a jerk, and faramir is a cry baby...http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby12.html

reply from: sander

Stunning, isn't it?
There's not a place on this board where Faramir the proaborts BEST FRIEND won't jump in to defend his best buddies.
Guess the better word is, sickening.

reply from: sander

Then let's ACTUALLY HEAR it from your mouth.
You keep telling yourself that, maybe you'll actually believe it.
If this was the rare post, no. But, since it's your life's work on this board to defend the proaborts, yes.
See above.

reply from: Faramir

Stunning, isn't it?
There's not a place on this board where Faramir the proaborts BEST FRIEND won't jump in to defend his best buddies.
Guess the better word is, sickening.
Yeah, it's truly amazing. Smurfy was called a "foul and disgusting creature" for somthing she DIDN'T say.
I forgot that we get to hammer the proaborts for ANY reason here, even if we have to falsely accuse them of something.
Did you know Smurfy is a bank robber and and strangles little kittens?
She's a "foul and disgusting creature" all the way around as you would expect a proabort to be.
An, no, I don't know for certain that she robs banks and molests kittens, but I'm a prolifer saying that about a baby killer, so nobody shoud dare to question me, or else you're a proabort.
If you want to see why this thread was spoiled and want to be objective and fair, reread it and you'll see that a prolifer once again used it as an occasion to be abusive, and in this case for NOTHING.

reply from: cracrat

Nobody needs to take Sander seriously anyway. She's all for saving the babies. But she's also all for killing criminals in ways that, were a vet to use them on a dog, would get them sent to jail. Pro-life indeed, just not all life.
She is the abortion debate equivalent of a vegetarian who won't eat meat because it's cruel, but'll tuck in happily to a plate of fish.

reply from: sander

Yeah, it's truly amazing. Smurfy was called a "foul and disgusting creature" for somthing she DIDN'T say.
I forgot that we get to hammer the proaborts for ANY reason here, even if we have to falsely accuse them of something.
Did you know Smurfy is a bank robber and and strangles little kittens?
She's a "foul and disgusting creature" all the way around as you would expect a proabort to be.
An, no, I don't know for certain that she robs banks and molests kittens, but I'm a prolifer saying that about a baby killer, so nobody shoud dare to question me, or else you're a proabort.
If you want to see why this thread was spoiled and want to be objective and fair, reread it and you'll see that a prolifer once again used it as an occasion to be abusive, and in this case for NOTHING.
Ah, the proaborts best friend at it again.
You and Cracrat related?
Faramir, you're no more prolife than smurfy and all those you support here.
Whatever did you do before you found your true calling, to prop the abortion industry and their supporters?
Life must have been frustrating, now you've found the place to vent.
To Mark's credit, he allows fools to post to give prolifers the chance to sharpen their skills and get a good look at the opposition. We see it in you, and you've served the purpose Mark allows.

reply from: sander

This coming from someone who has taken duplicity to new heights. I'm sure you won't mind if I don't give a rats hairy behind what you think.

reply from: GratiaPlena

Oh. My. Goodness.
That is all.

reply from: sander

It occured to me that he came here to prop up the proaborts, since that is exactly what he has done from the beginning.
You've been here for two days and you know all, you know he came here with an open mind...he said he's been pro-life from the start, so what's the point of an open mind.
Nobody is denying his right to prop up and support anything he wants. But, it doesn't take a genius to see where his loyality is, duplicty brings it's own set of problems. If he can't take the heat, maybe he should just get out of the kitchen.

reply from: sander

Ah, I forgot you know all. But, apparently it didn't occur to you that you're not making much sense.
Who comes to a board with an open mind about the board?
The website title speaks for itself.

reply from: joe

The enemy acknowledges the weakness of the pro-life movement. They know the reason unborn human beings are allowed to be slaughtered is because of the mainstream pro-life advocates represented here by Faramir.
The enemy knows our weakness and fears those that represent the truth.

reply from: joe

Those that kill innocent human life.
Those that contribute to this killing by defiling the truth.

reply from: sander

He's given little chance to get any true picture. He's getting the picture he's helping to create.
He's as much responsible for off topic discussions as any proabort that comes here and props up the proabortion side at every turn.
He's only getting what he wanted in the first place.

reply from: cracrat

This coming from someone who has taken duplicity to new heights. I'm sure you won't mind if I don't give a rats hairy behind what you think.
In no way shape or form am I duplicitous. I abhor the waste of life wherever I see it. From abortions to the death penalty. Pointless wars and foolish torrorist crusades. I find it all so bloody rediculous. I stand against any and every waste of life I see in the manner I belive will be most effective. I may well get this wrong, but where I do I will try to learn from my mistakes. With respect to the abortion debate, I don't believe a ban will protect the maximum number of unborn children.
You on the other hand pick and choose which humans are worthy to have you campaigning on their behalf. How am I more of a hypocrite than you? To me, all human life deserves my campaign. To you, it's only the cutesy widdle babies you'll try and help.

reply from: sander

Cracrat.
I would hold your views in the highest regard if you didn't try and have it both ways. It's simply impossible, in it's truest sense, to be pro-life and pro-abortion.
So, when you get that figured out, we'll talk more.

reply from: cracrat

I'm not pro-abortion though. Not now, not ever. I have never accepted that an abortion is the best solution to any but the most dire situation (baby dies or mother and baby dies). Abortion is wrong. I find it impossible to believe that ahyone will ever convince me otherwise.
How am I pro-abortion? Do explain because I really don't get where you're coming from. The ONLY difference between you and me in this regard is that you believe a ban will minimise abortion rates, I don't.

reply from: sander

You have said you are pro-choice. Pro-choice is the same exact thing as pro-abortion. You would not deny a woman to come to her own conclusion and have the right to abort her child. These are your thoughts expressed here, I didn't make them up. You went out of your way to say you have made the decision, thru coming to this website that you are now PRO-CHOICE.
So, either you are or you aren't. Wouldn't it be nice if we could really have things both ways? But, truth is we can't.
You mischaracterize my position, I don't believe a ban will minimize abortion, I know it will. History backs that up, at least in this country.
If murder of born people were some how legalized, I dare say we'd see the murder rates rise dramatically.
But, even further, my position is that the child in the womb deserves the right to personhood and all the laws that then will protect them.

reply from: cracrat

I am pro-choice simply on the basis that I don't support a ban on abortion, I don't believe such a ban will ever happen and my energies should be directed elsewhere. I do believe it is important that people should make up their own minds and do my damnedest to influence them in favour of child-birth as opposed to child-murder. I believe helping people to know to consequences of their actions to be a more effective tool in this struggle than pointless campaigning for unrealistic changes in the law. I have learned of some good ideas since coming here - forcing women to see an ultrasound before they decide for one and it would/will get my utmost support. Your suggestion that I am somehow in favour of woman murdering their children is grossly insulting.

reply from: sander

Huh? So, then you support unrestricted access to abortion, right?
You're certainly entitled to what you believe, I however, believe the opposite, and my energies are directed there.
I wish you nothing but the best in your efforts to influence mothers contemplating abortion. It's certainly one tool.
Good.
All I'm saying is that defining one's position as pro-choice is the same as being pro-abortion. I didn't make up the definitions, you'll have to direct your concerns to dictionaries.
You took an entire post to do nothing but insult me, so what can I say? Though, you're taking your own position and seeing it for what it is, how is that my fault?

reply from: Faramir

Ok, Sander, please feel free to show me the error of my ways.
This was said to Smurfy in this thread because of her response in this thread:
Please tell me what it was that Smurfy said that deserved this response, why you support this response, and why you oppose my trying to set the record straight that Smurfy did not say anything direspectful about the original post?

reply from: sander

Please tell me what it was that Smurfy said that deserved this response, why you support this response, and why you oppose my trying to set the record straight that Smurfy did not say anything direspectful about the original post?
I couldn't care less what smurfy says, I rarely read her posts...the beauty of scrolling.
4Given came to the defense of something she saw, surely YOU, of ALL people, must understand that position!
It just looks different to you when the shoe is on the other foot.

reply from: Faramir

Prochoicers were "challenged" to respond.
Smurfy said she didn't read it.
She was criticized for her "response."
She repeated that she didn't read it, and that she said nothing disrespectful about it.
She was then verbally abused as per the quote above.
She once again stated that she didn't read the post.
She never made a disrespectful comment. What needed to be "defended"?
And then I am critized for "propping up pro-aborts" simply for pointing out the truth.
I didn't derail this thread. It was derailed by those abusive words.

reply from: sander

Blah, blah, blah...egads.
Give it a rest. Call a truce. Anything to put us out of your/our misery.

reply from: cracrat

Sander:
Cry me a river, a pro-lifer finds my pointing out her hypocrisy insulting. Rub your thumb and forefinger together and play the world's smallest violin for yourself.
Yes, by opposing a ban on abortion I tacitly support open-access to abortion. I'm not happy with it, but happier than I'd be opposing a pointless ban. It'd be good if there was another word to describe my position, but there isn't. We must both live with the labels we're given for our views. I'm an anti-abortion pro-choicer, you're a pro-death penalty pro-lifer. I know which I'd rather be.

reply from: sander

In the words of the immortal Skippy:
*shrug*

reply from: 4given

Perhaps you failed to (deliberately or not)recognize her situation and the time she spent waiting, trying not to deliver her unplanned blessing..and her love note to the babe, she would not take home..
Creating drama?-I am showing respect in defense of Ashley, who I know can defend herself quite well. It is about respect and your failure to recognize and adhere to appropriate measures or behaviors.
Golden rule.. and if you can't say something kind...keep your foul to yourself!
There are plenty of things to criticize about what a prochoicer ACTUALLY SAYS.
But in this case, she didn't say anything unkind--just that she didn't read it.
Wrong. She said it "was too EMO " for her..which is disrespectful. Obviously her heart's cry to and for her child, she is desperately praying to save, will be full of genuine emotion.
Who are you to comment on her thread then? Show some respect for her or take this issue elsewhere.
No. To thine own self be true. I have not challenged or insinuated anything about your stance, nor do I desire to. I am not interested in your squabblings with others here. I suspect you can man up and confront the issues you have with the appropriate person- I am not interested.

reply from: 4given

Actually it was the EMO comment and also other contemptible mutterings in another thread about the disabled.
She was not falsely accused. It was a matter of opinion. I honestly shared my opinion. Was it harsh and excessive? Yes. Was I right to be so quick with it? No. Do I regret it? No. I do regret the turn NewMom's thread has taken. Let me be clear with you when I say that if you have an issue with something I have said, take it up with me. I am willing to engage you and prefer that you did not take your rantings to other members. It is disrespectful to NewMom and the other posters that read and post here to have to wade through the pages of your opinion on how discourteous I have been.
Don't let your agenda/opinion/feelings cause you to spew foolishness.
So we agree..
Again, you are making this about you. It is not. The bottom line is that it is about the bloodied remains of America's children.
This is where you are wrong. Have you comforted a mother that has buried their child? I had to plan my nephews funeral. I heard the wails of a mother of one, who lost her only son yesterday to the flu virus. Would I ever say that these women's journals or letters to their children were too "emo" for me to read through? Never. Do not comment, if your words only serve to cause further pain. Should I apply this to my own reaction? Yes. Although I am not sure that anything I said could cause further damage..

reply from: 4given

Oh it is cute how they want to defend a brotha..

reply from: 4given

NewMom, I apologize this thread has gone awry. I believe that your genuine emotion and gift for writing, may be of comfort to others faced with a similar plight. There is nothing quite like the bond a mother has with her child. Nothing compares. I do hope you are both well.. I pray when led to for you. In fact it happens at odd times. The other day I was discussing a designer bag.. a superficial discussion.. it brought me to think of you both.. As odd as it is and may seem, I was able to step out of a lacking conversation and go to where God wanted me to be- praying for you. I will pray whenever God leads me to. I am happy you have been posting again. You will be used for God's glory. I believe this completely! God Bless!

reply from: Smurfy

Now you're discriminating against Emo's.
I'll bet you're one of these people advocating and supporting the violence against Emo's in Mexico.
You keep proving what a horrible bigot you are.
Anything 'different' you want to kill, crush and keep down.

reply from: yoda

Ah, how wonderful... the local SELF APPOINTED protector of all "persecuted posters" has once again asserted his "authority" to rebuke all poster whom he thinks are "out of line"....... as if someone actually cared what he thinks.
Never mind that his whinings disrupt and ruin a thread... no, that doesn't matter, because asserting his "authority" is more important to him than any silly old idea like "saving babies", or anything like that.

reply from: yoda

We take all posters seriously. Even you.
Even when you jump in with an unfounded personal attack, to demonstrate your apathy and boredom on the subject of saving babies. I do hope we haven't ruined your day with all this talk about stopping the baby slaughter, I know it must bore you terribly.

reply from: yoda

I'm sure he appreciates the reciprocal defense from all you proaborts.
"Birds of a feather", right?

reply from: yoda

Which is precisely what "proabortion" means:
pro-a·bor·tion adjective - favoring legal access to abortion: in favor of open legal access to voluntary abortion http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861736813
But hey, don't feel bad, all the other proaborts deny that they are proabortion too, even when the are shown the actual definition. So you're in "good" company!

reply from: yoda

And that makes you a "proabort", a.k.a. a "proabortion" supporter.

reply from: cracrat

We take all posters seriously. Even you.
Even when you jump in with an unfounded personal attack, to demonstrate your apathy and boredom on the subject of saving babies. I do hope we haven't ruined your day with all this talk about stopping the baby slaughter, I know it must bore you terribly.
I was making reference to Sander apparent support of the death penalty. I found it a bit rich for her to lecture us on abortion on the one hand but support vengeful murder dressed up as justice on the other. It's all in the thread about that girl in Texas.

reply from: yoda

Then get one thing clear: abortion has nothing to do with the death penalty, nothing at all. There are many, many prolifers who support the death penalty to various degrees, and many others who oppose it. They are two totally different subjects.
"Prolife" means to oppose the legal status of elective abortion.
pro-life adjective against open access to abortion: in favor of bringing the human fetus to full term, especially by campaigning against open access to abortion and against experimentation on embryos http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861736610

pro-life adjective opposed to the belief that a pregnant woman should have the freedom to choose an abortion if she does not want to have a baby
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=63328&dict=CALD

pro-life -adj.
opposed to legalized abortion; right-to-life http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/pro-life

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) -
pro-life -adjective opposed to legalized abortion; right-to-life. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pro-life&r=66

pro-life adjective supporting the belief that it is immoral for a pregnant woman to have the freedom to choose to have an abortion (= an operation to end a pregnancy) if she does not want to have a baby http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=prolife*1+0&dict=A

reply from: cracrat

Then get one thing clear: abortion has nothing to do with the death penalty, nothing at all. There are many, many prolifers who support the death penalty to various degrees, and many others who oppose it. They are two totally different subjects.
"Prolife" means to oppose the legal status of elective abortion.
pro-life adjective against open access to abortion: in favor of bringing the human fetus to full term, especially by campaigning against open access to abortion and against experimentation on embryos http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/...efid=1861736610
<br ">http://encarta.msn.com...et/.....=1861736610
pro-life adjective opposed to the belief that a pregnant woman should have the freedom to choose an abortion if she does not want to have a baby
http://dictionary.cambridge.or...63328&dict=CALD
<br ">http://dictionary.camb....or.....8&dict=CALD
pro-life -adj.
opposed to legalized abortion; right-to-life http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/pro-life
<br ">http://www.infoplease.com/dict...ry/pro-life
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) -
pro-life -adjective opposed to legalized abortion; right-to-life. http://dictionary.reference.co...q=pro-life&r=66
<br ">http://dictionary.refe....co.....o-life&r=66
pro-life adjective supporting the belief that it is immoral for a pregnant woman to have the freedom to choose to have an abortion (= an operation to end a pregnancy) if she does not want to have a baby http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=prolife*1+0&dict=A
I understand that. I just don't know how a person can be against killing of unborn children because their human too but in favour of killing criminals, aren't they human too?
As I said to Sander, before she started ignoring me, I oppose any and every waste of a human life; abortion, death penalty, war, famine, endemic disease, etc. All of it. No exceptions. I found her duplicity extremely insulting and the callous attitude of some of the people who responded infuriating.
I know what the definition of pro-life is. Seems to me the word's meaning should be expanded to include all human life and not just the cute ones.

reply from: yoda

You poor, confused puppy..... let me enlighten you on our language, okay?
First off, we do NOT define recognized terms by taking them APART and defining their parts separately!! If we did, then what would the term "hot dog" mean?
When a term is recognized as a whole, it is defined as a whole, NOT by it's individual parts!!
And the term "prolife" is recognized as a WHOLE TERM.... and that's why dictionaries define it that way.
Oh, but wait...... I'm forgetting something!! I forgot that you are smarter and have more authority than ALL dictionaries put together, don't you?
HOW COULD I FORGET THAT???

reply from: sander

He's confused, but his pal cracrat passes him up in that department.
Tell me how anyone can be proabortion and be prolife in the same breath, but be AGAINST the death penalty in ALL circumstances?
That takes confusion to new and dangerous heights.

reply from: cracrat

Yes we do, everyday. Peadophile - lover of children, arachnophobia - fear of spiders, quadraped - of four legs.
Dictionaries derive their 'authority' from the usage of language at the time it is written. The moment a dictionary is printed, it begins to become inaccurate. At this time, pro-life means what you say, but that could easily change.
To the uninitiated, pro-life would seem to mean 'in favour of life'. It is the campaign you're associated with that decided pro-life refered only to abortion. Anti-abortion would be a perfectly adequate word to describe your position, leaving pro-life for those of us who are actually in favour of all life and not just a select group.

reply from: yoda

Then you probably know not to challenge anyone's prolife status because of their stance on capital punishment, right? Apparently joueravecfou does not understand that just yet..... that post was addressed to that poster.
The whole capital punishment debate is a large, cumbersome debate that we've had here dozens of times. There are many good points on both sides, and many comparisons that can be made between the two subjects.
But if you're really going into that, why not start another thread?

reply from: cracrat

Then you should know not to challenge anyone's prolife status because of their stance on capital punishment, right?
The whole capital punishment debate is a large, cumbersome debate that we've had here dozens of times. There are many good points on both sides, and many comparisons that can be made between the two subjects.
But if you're really going into that, why not start another thread?
Good idea

reply from: yoda

I don't know. I do know you can't be prolife and proabort at the same time, but the capital punishment thing is a whole nuther ball of wax. I think he's going to start a new thread on it, so maybe he will satisfy his desire to discuss it there.

reply from: sander

Then you probably know not to challenge anyone's prolife status because of their stance on capital punishment, right? Apparently joueravecfou does not understand that just yet..... that post was addressed to that poster.
The whole capital punishment debate is a large, cumbersome debate that we've had here dozens of times. There are many good points on both sides, and many comparisons that can be made between the two subjects.
But if you're really going into that, why not start another thread?
But, he's NOT for including the "cute" ones. He thinks it's find and dandy for a mother to have her child chopped into little pieces, but just "wishes" they wouldn't.
So, there's no way to have an intelleuctally honest debate with someone that's double minded on one side of the issue.

reply from: cracrat

Then you probably know not to challenge anyone's prolife status because of their stance on capital punishment, right? Apparently joueravecfou does not understand that just yet..... that post was addressed to that poster.
The whole capital punishment debate is a large, cumbersome debate that we've had here dozens of times. There are many good points on both sides, and many comparisons that can be made between the two subjects.
But if you're really going into that, why not start another thread?
But, he's NOT for including the "cute" ones. He thinks it's find and dandy for a mother to have her child chopped into little pieces, but just "wishes" they wouldn't.
So, there's no way to have an intelleuctally honest debate with someone that's double minded on one side of the issue.
Could've sworn you were ignoring me and my words.
I have never supported chopping babies into little pieces and catching what falls out. I have never favoured messing with a woman's hormones till the body miscarries the child. I have never favour interupting the placenta so that it can't support the child, causing a miscarriage. I have never condoned injecting formaldehyde into the cranial cavity of the child as it crowns in order to kill it. I have never once come out in favour of abortion. I want to see the rates of abortion drop at much as any pro-lifer here. But I believe the best way to do this is to reduce demand rather than reduce supply.
Your continual assertions to the contrary are demonstrative of why you people are losing the national debate and will continue to lose the national debate. You show yourselves to be completely incapable of meeting rational dissent with anything but tricks, stunts and grotesque pictures. Until you learn to be able to recognise a person's position in this debate, you will find yourselves woefully lacking in the means required to bring about your ends.

reply from: yoda

He's certainly not for including them under the protection of ordinary laws.
And that's a major sticking point...... protect convicted serial child killers, but not unborn babies with the law? Hmmm......... ????

reply from: yoda

Your words do support abortion. By opposing the re-criminalization of abortion you are supporting the highest possible frequency of abortion.
The demand side of this situation cannot be "reduced" substantially by us, that can only be done by those inclined to have abortions. Polls taken to ask the reasons for abortion clearly show that the vast majority of them will not be deterred by anything we do to "change their minds", only a legal roadblock will have any effect on them. Your "solution" is mere eyewash, it has no teeth at all.

reply from: sander

He's certainly not for including them under the protection of ordinary laws.
And that's a major sticking point...... protect convicted serial child killers, but not unborn babies with the law? Hmmm......... ????
Yeah, figure that one out. There's no way to debate someone who speaks out from BOTH sides of their mouth!

reply from: sander

Your words do support abortion. By opposing the re-criminalization of abortion you are supporting the highest possible frequency of abortion.
The demand side of this situation cannot be "reduced" substantially by us, that can only be done by those inclined to have abortions. Polls taken to ask the reasons for abortion clearly show that the vast majority of them will not be deterred by anything we do to "change their minds", only a legal roadblock will have any effect on them. Your "solution" is mere eyewash, it has no teeth at all.
Good luck getting him to see that.
If we de-criminalize murder of born people, you don't have to be a rocket scienctist to figure out murder rartes would go UP, UP , UP! Where on God's green earth would they stop????
Guess we'd have to pull out the old "pictures" of dead born murder victims! Sheesh, what's the matter with some of these people???
What lengths they will go to justify the murder of the unborn is staggering.

reply from: yoda

It is staggering. Sometimes it makes me sad just to think of it.

reply from: sander

Yeah, this isn't the happiest place to spend time. It's a cold reminder of how many babies will die gruesome deaths today.
But, we MUST fight on and put our own sadly effected emotions aside.

reply from: yoda

We have to do all we can. Even if it kills us.

reply from: sander

Wrong on all counts.
You're splitting hairs and using class warfare as a means to justify not criminalizing the killing of defensless human beings.
Since when does financial status mean a law should or shouldn't be passed?
And besides, Margaret Sangers', the founder of PP, whole goal was to destroy, by abortion rights the underclass you now want protected. You have a conflict of interest with the mother of all abortions in this country.
NARAL's signature cry was all babies wanted, that hasn't stopped women from killing their children before or since.
The list of people wanting to adopt "those" babies is longer than your arm. The problem is they're being slaughtered and hence unavaialbe for adoption.
My daughter's doctor had an entire file cabniet FILLED to the brim with parents wanting desperatly to adopt. I know, I saw the cabniet he reached into to pull out files to show her if she decided to adopt.
And I'd GLADY give my tax dollars to support those women who decide to keep their children, in fact, we all ready do. But, I go the extra mile and give to crisis prengnancy centers as well.

reply from: sander

Of course you were. For heaven sakes, you're the one who brought up the issue of the underclass. I was only detaling why that can't fly past the reason NARAL and PP's founder wanted abortion rights in the first place.
NARAL's cry is every baby wanted, you sited the idea the other side doesn't support or participate much in adoption.
Margaret Sanger's whole goal was to destroy the underclass, you know, the people YOU'RE bringing up.
That doesn't mean that those babies aren't wanted and aren't being adopted. It just means there aren't enough babies to go around. After over 5 million babies killed, there are not enough left to adopt.
I didn't say any such thing. Sheesh...re-read what I wrote. Since when is the affluence of people the criteria used to pass laws?

reply from: sander

It most certainly does. It's STILL the underclass that are getting the bulk of the abortions. The end results remain the same. Try and seperate it all you want, but the facts are still the facts.

If you're going to describe defending defensless babies as "whinning", then you won't mind if I say you're doing nothing more than "whinning" about the underclass, right?
What would REALISTICALLY happen is that babies would stop being slaughtered at the unprecedented rate they are now and men and women would have to start taking responsibility for their actions, of ALL classes.
Now you're shifting the ground on the discussion, first it was the babies, now it's the un-fortunate children that are in the custody of the state, since there are very, very few newborns that stay in state custody for any length of time.
Newborns are the subject.

Now we're back to the babies. Let's stay on track.
Yes, I do think that number would go down. Are you so synical to think that prospective parents care whether their baby comes from a wealthy background vs. an underclass background?
Look at how many adoptions take place from countries outside this one. It's because the number of newborns are few since most of the un-planned pregnancies see the abortionist first.
All I'm asking is that people begin to take responsibility for their actions, the law would affect all classes.
And you seem to be completely unwilling to address the idea that affluence shouldn't and doesn't affect laws being passed.
It is not a criteria and hopefully never will become one.

reply from: yoda

Who cares? I'm not interested at all in who is having abortion, just in how to reduce the total number. Are you now going to claim that criminalizing abortion would not reduce the total number?

reply from: sander

RESULTS: In 2000, 21 out of every 1,000 women of reproductive age had an abortion. Women who are aged 18-29, unmarried, black or Hispanic, or economically disadvantaged - including those on Medicaid - have higher abortion rates.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3422602.html

Spelling correction noted, thanks.
Do you have information to support your claims?
Shifting ground again, okay. What difference does it make what the financial background is for the child in question, the one being killed in the womb? That is who would benefit from the law as all born people do.
My premise is that the child who cannot speak for his/herself, regardless of finances, be given the opportunity to live.
The mother in question has options other than abortion, the rich baby nor the poor baby has a say.

All classes would still be able to abort, finances didn't stop them before RvW, it won't stop them after. What it will do is make them accountable, no matter the class and decrease substantially the number of aborted babies.
In the end, death knows no financial status.
Right, it's hypothetical. But, my head isn't in any sand, I see abortion for what it truly is, a means to get out of personal responsibility at the expense of another human being.

reply from: sander

Are you experiencing an earthquake? Because from my vantage point, the ground is sure shifting everytime you post.
Your point is still invalid. No matter how you try and slice and dice it up, and boy have you been doing that, no mother was held accountable prior to Roe.
Having your facts straight would help.
The authorities went after the doctor performing the abortion and I don't even know how often that happened.

reply from: sander

Whoo hoo, the ground is shifting again.
You do realize the numbers of illegal abortions were exaggerated when NARAL was on their quest to get abortion rights?
So, where does that leave the points you've been trying to make?
Where they were in the first place...ever changing and ever mistaken.

reply from: yoda

Sure it is, just like killing newborns you don't like is being "responsible", right?
I mean when they thrown newborn girls into the rivers of Asia, you applaud their sense of "responsibility", right?

reply from: yoda

Of course you didn't say that, that's why I put question marks at the ends of my questions! Didn't they show up on your monitor?
So tell me, why is it "responsible" to kill an unborn baby, but not to kill a born one, if that's what you think?

reply from: yoda

Okay..... but sometimes the "solution" is worse than the problem, you know?
Like, killing your parents because they didn't let you go to a party, and you thought that was a "problem".
Killing other innocent human beings isn't usually accepted as a solution to any problems, by decent people.

reply from: 4given

Originally posted by: NewMom It's so hard to say in words how much you love someone.
You know it when you look into their eyes instantly and there is a certain haziness in the air
And time seems to stand still, frozen for a moment until your eyes pull away.
Every moment is neither dull nor dreary and both worlds seem to cosmically be in sync.
Then there are the unexpected moments, some bring fear, anger and sorrow.
Those are the most difficult to surpass, and only true love can ever bear witness to it at its clearest hue of reality.
When one is weak, the other stands strong.
When someone breaks down, the other is there with glue and tape to help mend the pieces.
The pieces sometimes don't always fit back together quite as well, but life does not move forward if they stay in one place forever.
Then there is Life, simple and pure.
Its everywhere in the smallest crevasses of the earth, and we forget sometimes to appreciate it.
Busy streets and the hustle of the work week enable us to lose touch with the little things.
Every day I try to stop for a moment and watch and listen and smell;
And just let all my senses be enabled at once.
I try to answer that call every time it comes as often as I can- it seems like my rightful duty.
To remember and sense the simple things.
Life - how do we describe it?
It's your little movements inside of me, growing more frequent and strong.
It is your dad's voice on the phone, so rich, deep, boyish and nasal.
The sound of my breathing; shallow breathy regular sounds.
It's his kiss on my neck - so soft, loving and familiarly comforting.
The cry of a newborn in the adjacent room on the ward.
With life comes pain.
It's inevitably impossible to avoid it no matter how much we try to stop it.
Its one of those cosmic forces that spins in an opposite bumpy gravitational pull and comes in cycles.
When we just start to forget what it feels like it rears its ugly head again, eclipsing our focus at the time.
No matter how much we prepare for it, we are never fully prepared for it.
When it comes we are stunned by its ugliness and puzzled by its intent.
Love helps to ease it and aids in blocking our natural receptors to it.
Don't forget that part.
It's important for acceptance.
As we go on, life suddenly speeds up!
Lights blur by in a colourful hazes streak.
Motions sounds, days, nights, years fly by.
Then it slows.
Breathing slows.
Movement slows.
The pain goes from nonexistent to a dull constant throb.
And we are somewhat back to square one, but changed somehow.
The pieces are a little loose as they fit together in some spots, but in others they are seamless like a fort.
This is when we know love has conquered, and again our senses align and we begin preparing ourselves for the next cyclic eclipse.
But we still need our sensual solitude.
And especially that someone with those familiar eyes to help us on our quest.
For what, we are questing for is another segment entirely but not separately
A compassionate hand, a hug or a kiss helps, sometimes even kind words.
Owen, these are my dreams for you.
I expect you to be courteous and respectful - we all slip up but learn the importance when we are faced with ignorance and disrespect.
Be loyal to your commitments and keep your internal priorities in tender perspective.
It's ok to quit as long as you truly have learned your lesson well and remember the experience.
Love yourself unconditionally as we love you - but don't confuse love with pride and arrogance.
Cherish your health and respect your body - when it starts to moan back at you, you'll think of why I said this.
Be open to new opportunities and experiences but be wise where they might lead you.
Be proud of all you do, and know how to accept criticism regardless if it's constructive or ill-delivered.
Do NOT under any circumstances live to please others.
People who live like that refuse to live with dust on the floor, and keep their skeletons erratically jumbled in the closet.
They accept no flaw or mercy at the slightest sign of intolerance, and in doing this push themselves off into another world entirely.
Be cautious though, and do not live too freely; if you do, it becomes impossible to relate to specific situations.
Live in accordance to God respectful of others regardless of their flaws;
Flaws are what make us human and at times at heart we all are self-knowingly intolerable.
Lastly, son:
Love like it's your only simple, pure intent.
After all, it truly is.
Mom
10:42pm, McMaster Hospital
January 6, 2008.

reply from: yoda

Ah, I see...... you get your moral standards from the Gallup Poll, right? So, whatever "others" are doing must be okay with you, right?
Wow, what a powerful argument.................................................NOT!

reply from: NewMom

I started reading it, but it was too Emo for my tastes.
Not really into that sort of loose poem format.
First... I must say that you're lucky I wasn't around the past couple days because I was taking care of some stuff regarding my son and how we are going to set up his headstone.
How dare you take something that came straight from the heart and turn it into something to be laughed at calling it emo. Disgusting. Perhaps something that is too "emo" for you suggests you have the incapacity to feel at all. Which is my guess. Sorry to be too graphic for your emo self, but if you even KNEW or began to understand how it feels to be in labour for four hours and have to lie there for an hour knowing that your son is dead inside of you, maybe you'd know how it feels to lose someone who didn't even have a chance yet to call you Mom, or come running to you. I wrote this two days before everything happened while I was laying in a hospital bed bent backward to try to keep my son inside me. A feeling came over me that in case something bad were to happen I should write him something. Wait, you might not know what feelings are. After we buried him I buried a copy with him and I read it to him after the service.
Thanks a whole bunch for turning something that got me through the worst time in my life into a joke. I'd scream and swear at you and I might have even hit you if we were face to face, but I'd dare not waste any more of my precious time writing any more to you about what its like to go through something like that. THe point was to illustrate that every life is worth living. If you read any of my previous posts (not that I think you'd look back) but you'd have realized I faced a lot of scrutiny in here as well as from my own family. I was 21, unmarried having a baby and I fought endlessly with a lot of people about why it was right to keep him. And then to have it all ripped out of my hands... that was God's decision. I'll never understand it because I know I would have been an awesome mother, but it still doesn't erase what happened. And it surely doesn't erase people like you from the planet either. I know the forum supports the idea of free speech, but I think you went a little too far and poked me where nobody ought dare poke.

reply from: NewMom

If its too emo for you, don't read it. And surely don't post on it since you can't even begin to understand where I'm coming from. A lack of respect? Calling it emo to me is exactly like calling it a steaming pile of crap. Which is definitely nothing more than you are. Troll is right - only a inhuman vile troll would disrespect my son, my family and me like that!

reply from: lukesmom

Ash, the "smurf" troll isn't worth it. Unfortunantly there are many like him/her? who like and, no doubt, get great entertainment out of causing additional pain to those who are already hurting. Smurfy is an "it" who isn't worth your time or emotion and belongs in the "lower than pond scum" catagory. You are a wonderful mom to your angel. Hold tight to that and not to the ignorance of lower life forms.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Sue, Luke's mom

reply from: NewMom

Thanks hun. You and I are probably the only two on the entire site who could possibly even understand fully what its like.
Thanks 4give for reposting my passage.

reply from: Smurfy

You don't seem to have very good comprehension skills.
I stated several times that I didn't read it, because I found it to be too Emo.
Then don't comment about the 'pro-aborts'.
You asked "What, nothing from thr proaborts?"
So I answered, explaining why it didn't get a response.
What's wrong with the Emo subculture?
Why are you crapping all over something that millions of teens enjoy?
YOU are calling THEM a steaming pile of crap.
Whereas I simply explained that my tastes don't run to the Emo fad.
No, this is the result f your own idiocy; when you made your comment about "What, nothing from the proaborts?"
If you hadn't of behaved like a troll yourself, I wouldn't have felt inclined to explain why I didn't comment.
One of us is being rational and fair about this.
Hint: it's not you.

reply from: Faramir

Mabye you could let them know how much you read or didn't read, because there is the impression that if you judged it to be "emo" that you had to have read it.

reply from: lukesmom

You don't seem to have very good comprehension skills.
I stated several times that I didn't read it, because I found it to be too Emo.
Then don't comment about the 'pro-aborts'.
You asked "What, nothing from thr proaborts?"
So I answered, explaining why it didn't get a response.
What's wrong with the Emo subculture?
Why are you crapping all over something that millions of teens enjoy?
YOU are calling THEM a steaming pile of crap.
Whereas I simply explained that my tastes don't run to the Emo fad.
No, this is the result f your own idiocy; when you made your comment about "What, nothing from the proaborts?"
If you hadn't of behaved like a troll yourself, I wouldn't have felt inclined to explain why I didn't comment.
One of us is being rational and fair about this.
Hint: it's not you.
You low life, you got nothing else to do than come here and pick at a mother who is grieving the recent loss of her son? You have no compassion or humanity. Why don't you slither back down to the slime you came from.

reply from: Faramir

lukesmom,
She said she didn't read it.
She would have had to read something to call it "emo," though, but I have the impression she only read a few lines and abandoned it. I wish she would be specific, because I think by calling it "emo," that she gave the impression she read it entirely.
Regardless, I don't see any place in this thread where smurfy said anything negative about the story or any of the specifics of the story.
I'm sorry for what NewMom has been through. But I don't think she shoud have followed up her story with a post goading prochoicers to respond. She asked for a response.

reply from: lukesmom

She didn't read this post? Of course she did and she posted without caring. I will NOT stand by and watch some low life like this say nasty things to a grieving mother. NOTHING makes me angrier. You hold your dying child, then you can say what ever you want and defend whomever you want. She has not had anything but nasty comments on this and other threads. She wants nasty? Well she is getting nasty!
BTW- who made you the monitor for this board?

reply from: Faramir

I'm not a moniter. If I were, I would have edited a lot of posts by now.
Maybe I missed something. Smurfy said she didn't read the post.
How can she have been insensitive to something she didn't know about?

reply from: Faramir

I'm not a moniter. If I were, I would have edited a lot of posts by now.
Maybe I missed something. Smurfy said she didn't read the post.
How can she have been insensitive to something she didn't know about? What nasty things did she say?

reply from: Smurfy

I started reading it, but it was too Emo for my tastes.
Not really into that sort of loose poem format.
Is everyone on the same page now?

reply from: Smurfy

I simply responded to her post with my reasoning as to why there was no response from this 'proaborts'.
You people are the ones turning this into a circus.
Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

reply from: Faramir

I started reading it, but it was too Emo for my tastes.
Not really into that sort of loose poem format.
Is everyone on the same page now?
How much of it did you read? Did you read enough to get the gist of the story?

reply from: Smurfy

I read the first two lines and thought "Eh, this really isn't my thing. Too Emo" then stopped reading.
Substitute 'Emo' for '80's love song' if that's less offensive. Both genres are not my thing.

reply from: Faramir

That's what I thought. I read only the first four lines or so and then stopped reading because I didn't have time to go through it and had no idea what the story was about.
There's no way you could have known what that story was about, and there's no reason for you to be criticized, in this case, for insensitivity, unless someone wants to make the case that you had no business making any response unless you read the entire post first.
I think you were treated unfarily in this thread.

reply from: Smurfy

*Shrug*
They could find fault with Ghandi if he said something they didn't agree with.

reply from: 4given

That's what I thought. I read only the first four lines or so and then stopped reading because I didn't have time to go through it and had no idea what the story was about.
There's no way you could have known what that story was about, and there's no reason for you to be criticized, in this case, for insensitivity, unless someone wants to make the case that you had no business making any response unless you read the entire post first.
I think you were treated unfarily in this thread.
By your own admission, you did not read her post- why then are you here to spam her thread? Take your issues elsewhere. Show some respect.

reply from: 4given

Why are you holding her hand through this? (leading) You did not read the post, so step away before you are caught ugly. Seriously. How much more clear do I have to be? This isn't a challenge, or a threat- It is a polite request. I insist that you leave this thread alone unless you are here to support NewMom.

reply from: Faramir

That's what I thought. I read only the first four lines or so and then stopped reading because I didn't have time to go through it and had no idea what the story was about.
There's no way you could have known what that story was about, and there's no reason for you to be criticized, in this case, for insensitivity, unless someone wants to make the case that you had no business making any response unless you read the entire post first.
I think you were treated unfarily in this thread.
By your own admission, you did not read her post- why then are you here to spam her thread? Take your issues elsewhere. Show some respect.
This will probably be my last comment about this.
It was a wonderful story and too bad it got sidetracked.
Pro aborts were challenged to come, and she just said she didn't read it and had nothing to say, and was basically harangued for about a dozen posts about things she DIDN'T SAY, which is kind of weird, but I suppose is not unsual for message boards, since I've had similar experiences of being on the receiving end.

reply from: Teresa18

Ashley sincerely wanted to share this essay that she wrote in what was likely the most difficult time of her life. Of course it is emotional. It is a poem she wrote to her son before he passed away. A grieving mother deserves only kind words after such a beautiful poem. If you have no comments about it or nothing nice to say, just decline posting on the thread.

reply from: Faramir

Why are you holding her hand through this? (leading) You did not read the post, so step away before you are caught ugly. Seriously. How much more clear do I have to be? This isn't a challenge, or a threat- It is a polite request. I insist that you leave this thread alone unless you are here to support NewMom.
I'm going to leave this thread alone, but not because you insist.
I'm holding nobody's hand.
She was unfairly attacked and it's as simple as that.

reply from: Faramir

Do you think it was a good idea that she then challenged "pro aborts" to respond?

reply from: Teresa18

It was her post, so it was up to her whether she wanted their response or not. I think she was trying to convey the deep affection between a mother and child and question how any woman could support ending or actually end that affection through abortion.

reply from: 4given

Good. I stand by my feelings towards her post about a mother's heart cry and hopes for a son that she knew she may lose.. and did. Don't post if you aren't able to bring comfort, healing or support. You don't know what it is like. I don't. We lost our child, at a far less developed stage- we didn't have an ultrasound picture or body.. and I know God was being kind to me to take our miracle baby home so soon... God knows what we can bear. I held my nephew, still warm from birth- The deep pain that was there as his little body was placed within a cold April ground... If you have not been there, you would not ever fully comprehend. Don't further insult the loss of this baby and pain of its parents by supporting negative comments- or trying to justify them.

reply from: Smurfy

She asked a question, I answered.
The answer was then turned into a flame fest by YOUR camp.
It could have been easily left alone.
Point the finger elsewhere.

reply from: Altari

First, to NewMom...
I have never been where you are. I have never lost my own child. But a little over 3 years ago my beloved cousin gave birth to her much wanted baby at 5 months. The baby lived for nearly a day before dying in her arms. We all anticipated Emily, and we all loved her deeply. She was taken, for no reason any of us will ever understand.
I think the problem Smurfy is having is what you said here
The "bond" can be refuted. My guilt after Emily's death was severe. I found out that I was pregnant with my third daughter in 3 years, 5 short months after the birth of my second daughter, and just 2 weeks after Emily passed away. An unwanted pregnancy, to be sure. I cried, and at points prayed for a miscarriage. I was angry with God - why was I pregnant with another child, one that I didn't "want", when he had just taken Emily away?
I had no bond with this baby while I was pregnant. I didn't want "it" - I refused to refer to her as a "her" until she was born. I refused to name her, or buy clothes. I did everything I could to deny the very obvious pregnancy. Not to hide it, but because I didn't want it and didn't want to acknowledge it. I remember in the delivery room, she didn't cry. There was some sick part of me that wondered if she wasn't real, if I had finally just lost it. I asked my OB with a very odd detachment if she was alive and OK. She was, and her silence at birth was just an aspect of her personality - very easy going, always looking and taking in everything. For the first two weeks after she was born, I was depressed, I refused to eat, and I just took care of her. I felt not attachment. For some women, that bond is just not there.
This isn't to say that I don't love her more than my next breath now. She was a beautiful, sweet tempered happy baby. It was impossible for me not to love her. After those first two weeks, when the various nastinesses of the post-partum period started to subside, all of this became obvious. I wouldn't do a thing differently (aside from loving her sooner). But we don't always get to pick and choose when and who we love.

reply from: speck

I too think the inherent bond between mother and child can be refuted. I think it is seen as the "norm" as still today it is more likely to be the Mother who opts to be the stay at home parent, thus creating more time with babe, thus creating a bond from early on.
I have seen the bond between the stay at home father and child, and IMO is just as strong (and in many ways, I find when children are raised with the primary caregiver as the Father figure, the child/ren are more polite, able to express themselves extremely well, and very level headed at an exceptionally young age). I think it is more the circumstances that create a bond, not something that is automatically there.
NewMom, I am sorry for your loss, and hope you and your family find peace with your loss.

reply from: NewMom

You don't seem to have very good comprehension skills.
I stated several times that I didn't read it, because I found it to be too Emo.
[BThen explain to me how you can comment on something and call it "Emo" if you don't even read it? Generally in here before you comment, you READ before opening your mouth and throwing a label on something.]
Then don't comment about the 'pro-aborts'.
You asked "What, nothing from thr proaborts?"
So I answered, explaining why it didn't get a response.
What's wrong with the Emo subculture?
Why are you crapping all over something that millions of teens enjoy?
YOU are calling THEM a steaming pile of crap.
Whereas I simply explained that my tastes don't run to the Emo fad.
from Wikipedia just for you:
Emo (pronounced /?i?mo?/) is a style of rock music which describes several independent variations of music with common stylistic roots. As such, use of the term has been the subject of much debate. In the mid-1980s, the term emo described a subgenre of hardcore punk which originated in the Washington, D.C. music scene. In later years, the term emocore, short for "emotional hardcore", was also used to describe the emotional performances of bands in the Washington, D.C. scene and some of the offshoot regional scenes such as Rites of Spring, Embrace, One Last Wish, Beefeater, Gray Matter, Fire Party, and later, Moss Icon. (In more recent years, the term "emotive hardcore" entered the lexicon to describe the period.)
Starting in the mid-1990s, the term emo began to refer to the indie scene that followed the influences of Fugazi, which itself was an offshoot of the first wave of emo. Bands including Sunny Day Real Estate and Texas Is the Reason had a more indie rock style of emo, more melodic and less chaotic. The so-called "indie emo" scene survived until the late 1990s, as many of the bands either disbanded or shifted to mainstream styles. As the remaining indie emo bands entered the mainstream, newer bands began to emulate the mainstream style. As a result, the term "emo" became a vaguely defined identifier rather than a specific genre of music.
Please explain how a passage I wrote for my son emulates any of the above. Oh wait, you didn't read it so how could you know?
No, this is the result f your own idiocy; when you made your comment about "What, nothing from the proaborts?"
If you hadn't of behaved like a troll yourself, I wouldn't have felt inclined to explain why I didn't comment.
Pro-aborts do not understand the bond between a mother and child and it is illustrated in the simple fact that they support abortion! Abortion is the murder of the innocent. My son did not deserve to die, and neither do the rest of the children in this world that are executed at the decision of their mother who considers them a mistake. Who is to say who deserves to live and die? Everyone deserves to live! How can pro-aborts support murdering an innocent life that deserves to be brought into this world just as much as each pro-abort values their life and the fact that they are in this world? No one is above God to decide who lives and who dies. The people that think they do are evil and I fight to remove the power of decision from these people.
One of us is being rational and fair about this.
Hint: it's not you.
How do you ever expect me to be rational/fair when you are summing up everything I have just went through and all my true feelings into a display of "emo" popculture when you didn't even bother to read what I wrote?
I spent two weeks in the hospital living day to day wondering if my son was going to make it, I went through signing a stillborn certificate b/c you can't issue a death certificate without a birth certificate... I held my son and memorized every inch of him and how he looked just like his dad. And before I had him, I had to tell him that everything was going to be ok. I really suggest you bite your tongue before you say anything else to me. Don't talk to me about rationality. My whole experience goes against rationality. Don't take to me about fairness, because if I was delivered what was fair, I'd be having my son full term on May 8th instead of worrying about what I'm going to put on his headstone. So really, if you have any part of you which has any feeling left, leave it alone and stop spoiling the most beautiful thing I've ever wrote. I suggest you take five minnutes and read it. Maybe then you'll realize what you just did to me.

reply from: NewMom

So now my last words to my son are an 80s love song?

reply from: NewMom

That's what I thought. I read only the first four lines or so and then stopped reading because I didn't have time to go through it and had no idea what the story was about.
There's no way you could have known what that story was about, and there's no reason for you to be criticized, in this case, for insensitivity, unless someone wants to make the case that you had no business making any response unless you read the entire post first.
I think you were treated unfarily in this thread.
Faramir, you don't criticize something you haven't read. You both have already taken more than enough time writing back about how you think you have been treated unfairly, but neither of you have taken the time to read it! Explain that to me. What makes you not want to read it? Its too long? Its too feely? How do you even begin to discuss it when you have no idea what its about? Please. Do answer.

reply from: Faramir

I was going to refrain from posting any more in this thread, but since you've asked me to respond, I will.
I have had the experience of being misunderstood in message board posts, and then being ganged up on for being mean and insensitive, and it's no fun. I particularly remember once asking a hypothetical question, and the person I was debating took it personally and freaked out at me, and because she freaked out, I received a succession of nasty comments from other board members, including one threatening to kick the crap out of me--all because of an overreaction, and not because of the actual content of my post.
In the case of YOUR post, I think a similar thing happened. I don't think Smurfy read any more than a few lines, and she abandoned reading the rest, and had no clue it was a story about your deceased child.
And then someone attacked her for being mean and insensitive to your situation, and it was followed up by more attacks and more criticism for something she never said.
I was just trying to sort things out and be fair. Do you think someone should be attacked for being cruel and insensitive about your situation if that person knew nothing about it?
I haven't criticized anything you wrote. All I said was that I think it was a mistake to follow up your story with a goad to get "pro aborts" to respond.
I have since skimmed through your story and the first time I didn't understand that your child died, but will read it again more carefully.
You have nothing but my compassion and sympathy for what you've been through. I am very sorry about your loss.

reply from: NewMom

Thank you.
It was never my intent to poke at you, but definitely at Smurfy. I'm sorry people threatened to kick the crap out of you... that is tasteless. No one wants to face violence in here - it takes away from what we're here for.
Do you disagree with the Emo comment? I, as well as everyone else who has commented took it to be distasteful, rude and insensitive. Much as I stated in the private threads, my comment "What? Nothing from the proaborts?" was me thinking aloud "Wow! No pro abort has had the balls yet to say anything to the most wonderful purest expression of love to an unborn." May it have put a bad taste in people's mouths? Sure. But Smurfy cannot impose that its "Emo" (calling it such, is disrespectful) when in the next sentence she says she read a few lines of it. I don't take someone serious who reads a few lines and throws out an ignorant statement like that.
I encourage Smurfy to take some time out of posting back and stop and read it. At least read the bolded parts:
(I even took the first two lines out just for her)
For Owen
(cut)
Time seems to stand still, frozen for a moment until your eyes pull away.
Every moment is neither dull nor dreary and both worlds seem to cosmically be in sync.
Then there are the unexpected moments, some bring fear, anger and sorrow.
Those are the most difficult to surpass, and only true love can ever bear witness to it at its clearest hue of reality.
When one is weak, the other stands strong.
When someone breaks down, the other is there with glue and tape to help mend the pieces.
The pieces sometimes don't always fit back together quite as well, but life does not move forward if they stay in one place forever.
Then there is Life, simple and pure.
Its everywhere in the smallest crevasses of the earth, and we forget sometimes to appreciate it.
Busy streets and the hustle of the work week enable us to lose touch with the little things.
Every day I try to stop for a moment and watch and listen and smell;
And just let all my senses be enabled at once.
I try to answer that call every time it comes as often as I can- it seems like my rightful duty.
To remember and sense the simple things.
Life - how do we describe it?
It's your little movements inside of me, growing more frequent and strong.
It is your dad's voice on the phone, so rich, deep, boyish and nasal.
The sound of my breathing; shallow breathy regular sounds.
It's his kiss on my neck - so soft, loving and familiarly comforting.
The cry of a newborn in the adjacent room on the ward.
With life comes pain.
It's inevitably impossible to avoid it no matter how much we try to stop it.
Its one of those cosmic forces that spins in an opposite bumpy gravitational pull and comes in cycles.
When we just start to forget what it feels like it rears its ugly head again, eclipsing our focus at the time.
No matter how much we prepare for it, we are never fully prepared for it.
When it comes we are stunned by its ugliness and puzzled by its intent.
Love helps to ease it and aids in blocking our natural receptors to it.
Don't forget that part.
It's important for acceptance.
As we go on, life suddenly speeds up!
Lights blur by in a colourful hazes streak.
Motions sounds, days, nights, years fly by.
Then it slows.
Breathing slows.
Movement slows.
The pain goes from nonexistent to a dull constant throb.
And we are somewhat back to square one, but changed somehow.
The pieces are a little loose as they fit together in some spots, but in others they are seamless like a fort.
This is when we know love has conquered, and again our senses align and we begin preparing ourselves for the next cyclic eclipse.
But we still need our sensual solitude.
And especially that someone with those familiar eyes to help us on our quest.
For what, we are questing for is another segment entirely but not separately
A compassionate hand, a hug or a kiss helps, sometimes even kind words.
Owen, these are my dreams for you.
I expect you to be courteous and respectful - we all slip up but learn the importance when we are faced with ignorance and disrespect.
Be loyal to your commitments and keep your internal priorities in tender perspective.
It's ok to quit as long as you truly have learned your lesson well and remember the experience.
Love yourself unconditionally as we love you - but don't confuse love with pride and arrogance.
Cherish your health and respect your body - when it starts to moan back at you, you'll think of why I said this.
Be open to new opportunities and experiences but be wise where they might lead you.
Be proud of all you do, and know how to accept criticism regardless if it's constructive or ill-delivered.
Do NOT under any circumstances live to please others.
People who live like that refuse to live with dust on the floor, and keep their skeletons erratically jumbled in the closet.
They accept no flaw or mercy at the slightest sign of intolerance, and in doing this push themselves off into another world entirely.
Be cautious though, and do not live too freely; if you do, it becomes impossible to relate to specific situations.
Live in accordance to God respectful of others regardless of their flaws;
Flaws are what make us human and at times at heart we all are self-knowingly intolerable.
Lastly, son:
Love like it's your only simple, pure intent.
After all, it truly is.
Mom
10:42pm, McMaster Hospital
January 6, 2008.

reply from: Faramir

NewMom,
It's the internet. You could be blown off for quoting Shakespeare.
I think what you've written is heart-felt and beautiful.

reply from: Smurfy

FYI, I find Emo stuff and 80's love songs to have a very similar 'feel' to them. Similar lyrics too.
NewMom, I'm not interested in your post. I explained that earlier.
I've explained to you why this 'proabort' didn't comment, so you can carry on with whatever circus sideshow you're trying to create here - without me.
I'm out, since I have explained myself sufficiently.
No doubt other people appreciate your poetry/lyrics/whatever. I'm just not interested in what you wrote.

reply from: lukesmom

Yes, please slither away. Really nice and sensitive remarks now you "know" what the thread is about. Just couldn't resist getting in a couple more digs could ya. What would have been a little more appropriate would have been an apology regarding your rudeness and crassness and a sincere sympathy but look at who I'm talking to.

reply from: Smurfy

I've never recieved one on here for the behaviour of the anti-choicers.
So I don't see why I should be obliged to apologise, especially when I did nothing wrong.

reply from: Faramir

I'm just asking this for my own information, because I don't get it or I missed it somewhere. I understand it's a story about a letter to her son about to be born, but where does it mention that he died?

reply from: Altari

It doesn't mention it.

reply from: Faramir

I've never recieved one on here for the behaviour of the anti-choicers.
So I don't see why I should be obliged to apologise, especially when I did nothing wrong.
I think you have been treated unfairly in this thread and accused of things you didn't say, regarding something you could not have known about. As a prolifer, I apologize.

reply from: lukesmom

I thought you two pals were done posting on this thread. Goes to show how unbelievable you both are.

reply from: NewMom

I'm just asking this for my own information, because I don't get it or I missed it somewhere. I understand it's a story about a letter to her son about to be born, but where does it mention that he died?
Oh you know, I haven't just mentioned it a million times that he passed away halfway through birth because he was so premature, right?

reply from: NewMom

I've never recieved one on here for the behaviour of the anti-choicers.
So I don't see why I should be obliged to apologise, especially when I did nothing wrong.
I would NEVER expect an apology from someone who thinks that people's grieving is nothing more than an Emo 80's love song! Spare your words.

reply from: Faramir

I'm just asking this for my own information, because I don't get it or I missed it somewhere. I understand it's a story about a letter to her son about to be born, but where does it mention that he died?
Oh you know, I haven't just mentioned it a million times that he passed away halfway through birth because he was so premature, right?
I had no clue, and it wasn't mentioned in this thread. It took me a long time to get that.

reply from: 4given

I had no clue, and it wasn't mentioned in this thread. It took me a long time to get that.
Let's see.. How about page 1:
And again:
But you responded here: Originally posted by: 4given
Originally posted by:
Perhaps you failed to (deliberately or not)recognize her situation and the time she spent waiting, trying not to deliver her unplanned blessing..and her love note to the babe, she would not take home.. Creating drama?-I am showing respect in defense of Ashley, who I know can defend herself quite well. It is about respect and your failure to recognize and adhere to appropriate measures or behaviors.
Golden rule.. and if you can't say something kind...keep your foul to yourself!
Yet you failed to realize she was a grieving mother, because her child had died?!

reply from: Faramir

There was nothing in the original post that would lead anyone to believe the child died.
Why blame someone for being disrespectful of a greiving mother if there was no way of knowing she was a greiving mother? (Sander's comments came later).
Why not just admit you guys jumped the gun and slammed Smurfy for no good reason?

reply from: 4given

"Jumped the gun and slammed" And you admit that your claim that it actually.."..wasn't mentioned in this thread. It took me a long time to get that. ".. is what?
Were you not you done with this thread?

reply from: Faramir

I don't know what you're trying to say here.
There was no evidence in the original post that the child died. None that I could see and I asked someone else to look it over in case I missed something and she couldn't find anything either.
How is anyone supposed to know that she is a grieving mother, if it's not mentioned? Why should someone be criticized for being insensitive to a grieving mother if there IS NO CLUE SHE IS A GRIEVING MOTHER?

reply from: 4given

Maybe that you are either dishonest or...
YOU did not read the post! By your own admission- yet had an opinion on it....
I am not very patient, as my day is quite long.. Look above at the clues.... sigh...

reply from: yoda

What we must realize is that Faramir's power's of perception and deduction are so powerful, and so advanced that he need not actually read something to form and express an opinion on it. He's in a "class" of his own.

reply from: Faramir

What we must realize is that Faramir's power's of perception and deduction are so powerful, and so advanced that he need not actually read something to form and express an opinion on it. He's in a "class" of his own.
I said I didn't read it the first time through. I eventually did read it. There is no mention that her child passed away. There is no way anyone who read that post could tell that her child passed away. There is no reason to accuse someome of being insensitive to a death that was not mentioned.

reply from: lukesmom

And after you BOTH knew the slams still continued. Now you have said you were done with this thread or is that another lie? I won't state the obvious.

reply from: Faramir

I was invited back by newmom to respond.
I certainly didn't "slam" anyone.
But you did your own slamming for something that someone DIDN'T do.
If you want to be the better person here, you will reread the thread, see that you were unfair, and apologize.

reply from: yoda

When the reason that they don't know anything about it is that they hadn't bothered to actually read it, then an "attack" is most definitely in order.

reply from: yoda

But you didn't know that until you "eventually" read the whole thing, did you? In the meantime, however, you jumped to the defense of someone who had ALSO NOT READ IT, and attempted to ridicule it.
I don't know which is worse.

reply from: nancyu

This is the consequence of summoning the evil spirits. Speak of the devil and he shall appear.
Now go away evil spirits, you are no longer wanted here.
My deepest sympathies, Newmom.


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