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Why we fight

by: sander

'My heart got calloused'
Physicians are manipulated into going against their own consciences and performing abortions, says Brewer, all in the name of helping women. He describes witnessing a suction abortion for the first time, during his medical training:
I can remember ... the resident doctor sitting down, putting the tube in, and removing the contents. I saw the bloody material coming down the plastic tube, and it went into a big jar. My job afterwards was to go and undo the jar, and to see what was inside.
I didn't have any views on abortion; I was in a training program, and this was a brand new experience. I was going to get to see a new procedure and learn. I opened the jar and took the little piece of stockingette stocking and opened that little bag. The resident doctor said, "Now put it on that blue towel and check it out. We want to make sure that we got it all." I thought, "That'll be exciting - hands-on experience looking at tissue." I opened the sock up and put it on the towel, and there were parts of a person in there.
I had taken anatomy, I was a medical student. I knew what I was looking at. There was a little scapula and an arm, I saw some ribs and a chest, and a little tiny head. I saw a piece of a leg, and a tiny hand and an arm and, you know, it was like somebody put a hot poker into me. I had a conscience, and it hurt. Well, I checked it out and there were two arms and two legs and one head and so forth, and I turned and said, "I guess you got it all." That was a very hard experience for me to go through emotionally.
Here I was with no real convictions, caught in the middle. And so I did what a lot of us do throughout our life. We don't do anything. I didn't talk with anybody about it, I didn't talk with my folks about it, I didn't think about it. I did nothing. And do you know what happened? I got to see another abortion. That one hurt too. But again I didn't do anything, and so I kept seeing abortions. Do you know what? It hurt a little bit less every time I saw one.
Then I got to sit down and do an abortion. Well, the first one that I did was kind of hard. It hurt me again like a hot poker. But after a while, it got to where it didn't hurt. My heart got calloused. I was like a lot of people are today - afraid to stand up. I was afraid to speak up. Or some of us, maybe we aren't afraid, but we just don't have our own convictions settled yet.
One particular abortion changed Brewer's life. "I remember an experience as a resident on a hysterotomy (a late-term abortion delivered by caesarean section). I remember seeing the baby move underneath the sack of membranes as the caesarean incision was made, before the doctor broke the water."
The thought came to me, 'My God, that's a person.' Then he broke the water. And when he broke the water, it was like I had a pain in my heart, just like when I saw the first suction abortion. And then he delivered the baby, and I couldn't touch it. I wasn't much of an assistant. I just stood there, and the reality of what was going on finally began to seep into my calloused brain and heart.
They took that little baby that was making little sounds and moving and kicking, and set it on the table in a cold, stainless steel bowl. And every time I would look over while we were repairing the incision in the uterus and finishing the Caesarean, I would see that little person kicking and moving in that bowl.
And it kicked and moved less and less, of course, as time went on. I can remember going over and looking at that baby when we were done with the surgery and the baby was still alive. You could see the chest was moving and the heart beating, and the baby would try to take a little breath like that, and it really hurt inside, and it began to educate me as to what abortion really was.
'My heart got calloused'
Physicians are manipulated into going against their own consciences and performing abortions, says Brewer, all in the name of helping women. He describes witnessing a suction abortion for the first time, during his medical training:
I can remember ... the resident doctor sitting down, putting the tube in, and removing the contents. I saw the bloody material coming down the plastic tube, and it went into a big jar. My job afterwards was to go and undo the jar, and to see what was inside.
I didn't have any views on abortion; I was in a training program, and this was a brand new experience. I was going to get to see a new procedure and learn. I opened the jar and took the little piece of stockingette stocking and opened that little bag. The resident doctor said, "Now put it on that blue towel and check it out. We want to make sure that we got it all." I thought, "That'll be exciting - hands-on experience looking at tissue." I opened the sock up and put it on the towel, and there were parts of a person in there.
I had taken anatomy, I was a medical student. I knew what I was looking at. There was a little scapula and an arm, I saw some ribs and a chest, and a little tiny head. I saw a piece of a leg, and a tiny hand and an arm and, you know, it was like somebody put a hot poker into me. I had a conscience, and it hurt. Well, I checked it out and there were two arms and two legs and one head and so forth, and I turned and said, "I guess you got it all." That was a very hard experience for me to go through emotionally.
Here I was with no real convictions, caught in the middle. And so I did what a lot of us do throughout our life. We don't do anything. I didn't talk with anybody about it, I didn't talk with my folks about it, I didn't think about it. I did nothing. And do you know what happened? I got to see another abortion. That one hurt too. But again I didn't do anything, and so I kept seeing abortions. Do you know what? It hurt a little bit less every time I saw one.
Then I got to sit down and do an abortion. Well, the first one that I did was kind of hard. It hurt me again like a hot poker. But after a while, it got to where it didn't hurt. My heart got calloused. I was like a lot of people are today - afraid to stand up. I was afraid to speak up. Or some of us, maybe we aren't afraid, but we just don't have our own convictions settled yet.
One particular abortion changed Brewer's life. "I remember an experience as a resident on a hysterotomy (a late-term abortion delivered by caesarean section). I remember seeing the baby move underneath the sack of membranes as the caesarean incision was made, before the doctor broke the water."
The thought came to me, 'My God, that's a person.' Then he broke the water. And when he broke the water, it was like I had a pain in my heart, just like when I saw the first suction abortion. And then he delivered the baby, and I couldn't touch it. I wasn't much of an assistant. I just stood there, and the reality of what was going on finally began to seep into my calloused brain and heart.
They took that little baby that was making little sounds and moving and kicking, and set it on the table in a cold, stainless steel bowl. And every time I would look over while we were repairing the incision in the uterus and finishing the Caesarean, I would see that little person kicking and moving in that bowl.
And it kicked and moved less and less, of course, as time went on. I can remember going over and looking at that baby when we were done with the surgery and the baby was still alive. You could see the chest was moving and the heart beating, and the baby would try to take a little breath like that, and it really hurt inside, and it began to educate me as to what abortion really was.
__________________________
Hard to read, hard to believe, but it's why we fight.

reply from: sander

Faramir,
How about addressing this? How about sharing your views, or asking questions...something that remotley smacks of a pro-life view.

reply from: Faramir

I'll tell you what. That story is gut-wrenching, and I don't see how prochoicers could have the nerve to say that "punishment" or "control" is what motivates WE prolifers. It's about stopping this grave injustice.
But I'm not going to be manipulated into proving myself to you. There is enough evidence of my prolife beliefs on this site if you would care to look.

reply from: 4given

You are right. This is why it is important to take action and be a voice.

reply from: sander

I shared this with my husband last night. He was stunned that the doctor didn't do anything...not even a little blanket for just a small comfort as this baby lay dying.
Then he had a great idea...thought the mother should have been wheeled over to the baby and made to stay there until the baby took it's last breath. But, of course he understood that no one even saw the baby as a person....to me this is no different than any nazi death camp.
And meanwhile the Supreme Court is taking up the case to determine if lethal injection is cruel and unusual punishment for a convicted criminal.
This is why we fight, this is why we can't stop no matter the obsticales, no matter who objects...no matter what.

reply from: 4given

As I have stated before, if only the womb was invisible- it would deter at least a few abortionists. We have also discussed this here. My mother said every women needs to watch this video. http://www.abortionno.com before they decide to abort. They should all have to experience the dead remains of their victim.. but that would be "cruel and unusual", right? Educate! Yourself and others.

reply from: carolemarie

THat would be a horrible thing to do! My God, why would anyone want to do that?
Would it save that baby, no. Would it perhaps drive his mother to killer herself? Do you want that?
One horrible thing isn't made right by doing something equally horrible....
Being angry for the baby is understandable, but wow....that is really hateful

reply from: joe

Do you really say this garbage because you believe it?
I hate having to defend the unborn against you but you leave me no choice. This is not about being "hateful".
Let me explain: If someone made you hold your child after the abortion the other two would be saved. You are being hateful toward the unborn.
I hope you have found Gods mercy because if I were you I would be careful with the words you say, you will have to account for them.

reply from: faithman

Gosh!!! That a killer ought to have to look their victim in the eye!! God forbid!!!!!!!! How dare we even dare to think to do anything that would hurt killer moms feelings.

reply from: carolemarie

You really went to far with that remark.
I have found the ignore button!
Goodbye

reply from: faithman

Sniff sniff. Just when we were having fun!!!

reply from: sheri

That testimony of an actual abortionist is very potent. It would make a good brochure. I was stunned by the abortionNO.org video, and since most abortions are 1st trimester it makes it that much more important for people to see.

reply from: sheri

where did you get that from?

reply from: sander

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42462

reply from: sander

Are you accusing my husband of being hateful?
Hateful is the true story that prompted my husband to want just a little justice for this poor child and maybe somewhere in there a little comfort for the baby.
Do you think God isn't interested at all in justice in this life?
No, Carolmarie, what was "horrible" was what happened to that baby, that was what was "hateful" and if you can't see that first last and always, then there's a problem.
Apparently you are soley interested in the post-abortive mother. Try not to forget the baby in the process.

reply from: sheri

Did you read the part where they were talking about the D&E?!!!!!! How do these monsters sleep at night?

reply from: sander

The only way they can is to have a dead conscience. As much as kayluvsdeath doesn't believe it...but their conscience has been seared.
Notice how this doctor knew in his heart this wasn't right from the beginning...but, slowly he got "use" to it. Then because of God's mercy he got another chance to see abortion for what it is...if he had not allowed his conscience to object he would have become like all the abortionists and their supporters...a cold blooded killer.

reply from: faithman

Are you accusing my husband of being hateful?
Hateful is the true story that prompted my husband to want just a little justice for this poor child and maybe somewhere in there a little comfort for the baby.
Do you think God isn't interested at all in justice in this life?
No, Carolmarie, what was "horrible" was what happened to that baby, that was what was "hateful" and if you can't see that first last and always, then there's a problem.
Apparently you are soley interested in the post-abortive mother. Try not to forget the baby in the process.
Thank you!!!!!!! Finally a voice of logic and reason!!!! Now that is a voice of a true pro-life woman!!!!!!

reply from: faithman

The only way they can is to have a dead conscience. As much as kayluvsdeath doesn't believe it...but their conscience has been seared.
Notice how this doctor knew in his heart this wasn't right from the beginning...but, slowly he got "use" to it. Then because of God's mercy he got another chance to see abortion for what it is...if he had not allowed his conscience to object he would have become like all the abortionists and their supporters...a cold blooded killer.
Now take it a step further. If a woman payed someone to torchure a born child to death, aint one soul around [except CM] would say she gets a free walk, she would go to jail right along side the hit man. But if abortion is made to be illegal, we are told that the womb child will still be a 2nd class being , because most "pro-lifers" believe that the hit man abortionist goes to jail, but not killer mom who paid him!!!!!!!!! We are further told that ex killer moms will fight any kind of true justice , or equality of law for the womb child!!!! I say a BIG RED FLAG of conflict of interest goes WAY WAY WAY up on this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply from: yoda

You posted right after 4Given, were you responding to her?
She said something about women watching that video BEFORE they decide to abort, so why wouldn't that possibly "save the baby"?

reply from: carolemarie

I think your husband was reacting out of anger for that poor child, but it is a mean thing to advocate...it wouldn't help the child

reply from: carolemarie

You posted right after 4Given, were you responding to her?
She said something about women watching that video BEFORE they decide to abort, so why wouldn't that possibly "save the baby"?
"the view the remains remark"
I seem to be having issues with the quote button

reply from: sander

What would help the child?
So, I understand your views now...it's all about the post abortive mother...and the child be dam***. I get it now.
Your conscience has not be cleansed because you refuse to view the child as the true victim. Repent, Carolmarie, there is mercy. You've focused on what can be yours (mercy) instead of focusing on what brought you to the need in the first place.
God is interested in justice.
Try and remember what Jesus told Pilate....there was an ascending level of guilt and guilt brings punishment.
The abortionist will be punished in a desending manner because he wouldn't be there if the mother did not give her express permission.
So, while you're worried about the mother, Jesus was standing next to the baby while it was dying...He was not next to her.

reply from: yoda

Okay, so I take it that you were responding to the first post?
In that case, why would it not be possible that forcing a woman to view the remains of her aborted baby would influence her not to ever abort again?
Don't women get repeat abortions fairly often?

reply from: faithman

What would help the child?
So, I understand your views now...it's all about the post abortive mother...and the child be dam***. I get it now.
Your conscience has not be cleansed because you refuse to view the child as the true victim. Repent, Carolmarie, there is mercy. You've focused on what can be yours (mercy) instead of focusing on what brought you to the need in the first place.
God is interested in justice.
Try and remember what Jesus told Pilate....there was an ascending level of guilt and guilt brings punishment.
The abortionist will be punished in a desending manner because he wouldn't be there if the mother did not give her express permission.
So, while you're worried about the mother, Jesus was standing next to the baby while it was dying...He was not next to her.
"Ignore" that CM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply from: Faramir

If she is lopsided in her thinking towards the post abortive mother, that does not mean her attitude is "the child be damned." That's a false dichotomy, and an unfair statement, and a cruel statement.
You don't know her heart, and you don't know where "Jesus is standing," and you don't know that the mother is more guilty than the aboritionist. This is YOUR self-righteous speculation and prattle and not religious dogma.

reply from: xnavy

i have to agree with faith on this, Jesus was with the dying child. the abortive mother will have to answer for the abortion, unless she
truely repents and knows that she sinned against God and the child that she murdered.

reply from: sander

If she is lopsided in her thinking towards the post abortive mother, that does not mean her attitude is "the child be damned." That's a false dichotomy, and an unfair statement, and a cruel statement.
You don't know her heart, and you don't know where "Jesus is standing," and you don't know that the mother is more guilty than the aboritionist. This is YOUR self-righteous speculation and prattle and not religious dogma.
Are you incaple of judging even the smallest of matters? Then you would be totally incapable of judging this situation, so tell me why I should ever listen to your "prattle".
If you knew the Heart of God and understood one whit of His idea of justice you would too know where He was standing.
So, does this mean I'm not on ignore? Rats...but I'm not surpised, you're all talk anyway.

reply from: Faramir

Of course Jesus was there. Jesus is God, is omnipotent, and is not bound by space and time. He's with all the suffering, but he is also with those who cause suffering, becuase he's always waiting patienty for the heart to turn to him.
But that wasn't my point.
Carolmarie never said "the child be d*amned" and never implied such a horrible thing. That's was laid on her as an excuse to give her a few more lumps.

reply from: faithman

Faramir defends those who do this http://www.abortionno.com/ to a womb child, but rarely says a word about the in justice of thishttp://www.abortionno.com/ being done to a womb child. Then he has the gaul to talk down to a truely pro-life woman...... Go figure.....

reply from: Faramir

I can see when someone uses religion or a moral position as an excuse to beat on someone.
And you misrepresented her, as well.

reply from: sander

You do understand that God CANNOT look on sin...He hears the prayer of a sinner, but is not "near" those who still have not repented.
Your logic is so twisted, it's stunning that you can't understand the simplest of spiritual matters.

reply from: sander

I can see when someone uses religion or a moral position as an excuse to beat on someone.
And you misrepresented her, as well.
See, there you go again.
Try picking up the Bible and then we can have an honest discussion.
CM has declared herself a Christian....am I not to ever use the same logic she stems from?
I misrepresented her...well, now, how about her misreperesnting my husband? She found it no matter to beat on my husband.
But, I guess that bares nothing in my discussion with her either, if I'm to view this from your perspective. Which I refuse to do.

reply from: faithman

I can see when someone uses religion or a moral position as an excuse to beat on someone.
And you misrepresented her, as well.
SSSSOOOOOOOO you are all down with killer moms treating their womb children like thishttp://www.abortionno.com/ with absolutely no penalty, Right? So a killer mom of the born child is different than killer mom who does thishttp://www.abortionno.com/ to her preborn child? Put there is a difference. At least the killer mom of the born child are usually more humane in snuffing out junior than killer mom of the preborn. Did I mention thishttp://www.abortionno.com/ is what we are talking about?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply from: Faramir

You do understand that God CANNOT look on sin...He hears the prayer of a sinner, but is not "near" those who still have not repented.
Your logic is so twisted, it's stunning that you can't understand the simplest of spiritual matters.
You have your own made-up "theology" of sorts, an unfortunate product of the Protestant Reformation and sola scriptura, where everyone gets to be their own Pope, and their own interpretor of scriptures.
But theology is not the issue--the issue is that CM did not say or imply "the child be d*mned." That is YOUR spin on it to make her look horrible.

reply from: sander

Ah, I see, theology isn't the issue, but that would mean you wouldn't brow beat me about partaking in an "unfortunate product" of Protestant Reformation.
Quite the double standard...to which you adhere to very well.
I'm not adhereing to anything but the Bible...so, your beef isn't with me, it's with the Lord...have a nice chat with Him, it may do you more good than you could ever imagine.
So, how about going back to the actual topic, you know...abortion on demand.

reply from: faithman

You do understand that God CANNOT look on sin...He hears the prayer of a sinner, but is not "near" those who still have not repented.
Your logic is so twisted, it's stunning that you can't understand the simplest of spiritual matters.
You have your own made-up "theology" of sorts, an unfortunate product of the Protestant Reformation and sola scriptura, where everyone gets to be their own Pope, and their own interpretor of scriptures.
But theology is not the issue--the issue is that CM did not say or imply "the child be d*mned." That is YOUR spin on it to make her look horrible.
But she insists that women who pay for thishttp://www.abortionno.com/ get a free walk. No justice for the victims of thishttp://www.abortionno.com/. And unless you forget your history, this country was founded so folk could be free from the oppression of a pointy hat wearing youth Nazi sitting in a dusty ole cathedral in Europe. Youy and CM both have tried to drag your perverted faith into this, then scream foul when you are proven wrong. This is about nutral, blind justice for the womb child who is treated like this http:// .http://www.abortionno.com/ over 3000 times a day. Cm says those who have done thishttp://www.abortionno.com/ to their womb child get a free walk. SSSSSOOOO now we are to believe that an organization who killed thousands of jews in torture dungeons, have the moral clarity to talk down to others who ran for there lives to this country to escape such oppression? I guess your "church history" has prepared you to turn a blind eye to thishttp://www.abortionno.com/ kind of torture.

reply from: sheri

Have mercy! and they say were off topic! Fathead is such a troll it isnt even funny, I hope everyone who reads this knows Fboy is really a crazy proabort nut-case pretending to be a cracy prolife nut-case. There you are fboy, now i have really called you some names and you can use that as a reference point to say i am full of hate.(have lots of fun)
Sander, you called out the wrong guy! all this time youve been after farimer and it was really fboy all along, i bet you feel silly.
God help us.

reply from: sander

I'll agree with that, but probably not on the same level you're speaking to in this thread.
God help us to see that the baby is the ONLY victim...yes, God help us.

reply from: Faramir

I've been thinking the same thing the past day or so Sheri.
Faithman is a pro abort who has invaded this forum to make prolifers look bad. It's a brilliant idea, but they've been making their puppet a little too kooky lately, and I think they are giving themselves away.

reply from: faithman

I'll agree with that, but probably not on the same level you're speaking to in this thread.
God help us to see that the baby is the ONLY victim...yes, God help us.
Take it easy on her sander. The poor little thing is all confused. Sometimes you just have to let toddlers cry it out.

reply from: faithman

I've been thinking the same thing the past day or so Sheri.
Faithman is a pro abort who has invaded this forum to make prolifers look bad. It's a brilliant idea, but they've been making their puppet a little too kooky lately, and I think they are giving themselves away.
HHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMM interesting thought. But you 2 are the ones who have taken up the cause of those who have done this http://www.abortionno.com/ to their womb children. I say those who do such to a womb child deserve some kind of penalty.

reply from: sander

Might be some projecting going on with that reply....something to think about anyway.

reply from: carolemarie

Sander:
I feel just as terrible for the baby as you do. But forcing someone to watch their child die is equally as horrible. How could that help anything, the baby still dies and the mother is given torment to live with.
Outlaw abortion and end it. The Doctor who performs such a thing day in and day out is truly evil.

reply from: faithman

Might be some projecting going on with that reply....something to think about anyway.
Gosh!!! like I have twisted words, distorted issues, and ignored that this http://www.abortionno.com/ is how some treated their womb child, and has vowed to make sure that those who do this http://www.abortionno.com/ in the future will never face a penalty for doing this http://www.abortionno.com/. Boy this is going to be entertaining watching them trying to make that case. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!!!!!

reply from: sander

And the mother who allows it in the FIRST place is equally evil, if not more so.
If women would STOP having abortions there would be NO abortions. First things first, do you not understand that principle?

reply from: faithman

http://www.abortionno.com/
But mommy dearest who lays down and lets the hired killer do this http://www.abortionno.com/ is suposed to get a free walk ? We forced the germans to walk thru the death camps with bodies stacked like cord wood. I don't think it is such a stretch to force the money person in a hired murder to actually look at what they paid to have done.

reply from: sander

Carolmarie,
What about the point that has been made and is valid, that the German people living in the villages where the death camps were kept, were made to not only "view" what was happening in their own back yard, but in some cases were made to help dispose of the bodies, properly?
It's clear that the German people were so humilated that they have also vowed, "never again".
If we take one woman at a time and have her view what has happened to her child, don't you think; 1) it gives the baby at least a little respect, 2) will cause her to never do that any future children?

reply from: yoda

Why have you been avoiding responding to my posts?
When are you going to state your reasons for opposing the use of the term "baby"?

reply from: carolemarie

First, there is a big difference between the Holocaust and abortion.
I don't see how that would give any respect to the baby.
I don't know if it would stop future abortions. I see it as being unnecessarily cruel to the mother. I doubt that anyone would ever legislate such a thing be done.

reply from: Faramir

Why have you been avoiding responding to my posts?
When are you going to state your reasons for opposing the use of the term "baby"?
If you ask an honest question, I'll answer it.
Meanhwile, when did you stop beating your wife?

reply from: yoda

Would it not force a woman to admit what she had done? Would it not force her to acknowledge that she had killed a living baby, if she was in denial of that fact?
"Unnecessarily cruel"? You think it kinder to allow her to continue in her denials, and to kill another baby?
Is that your idea of compassion?

reply from: yoda

On the forum PCT, you posted that you did not think that prolifers ought to use the term "baby" to refer to unborn humans. I questioned your statement, but you ignored my post.
When are you going to respond?

reply from: Faramir

On the forum PCT, you posted that you did not think that prolifers ought to use the term "baby" to refer to unborn humans. I questioned your statement, but you ignored my post.
When are you going to respond?
I think you should deal with this on the PCT forum or esle bring ALL the posts over here so that my remarks can be seen in context and not entirely misrepresented as you have done here.

reply from: carolemarie

Maybe, but when the reality of what they just consented to hits them, it may destroy that woman.
The goal here is to stop abortion, not destroy another life.

reply from: yoda

You brought a "select few" of your posts here, so I will bring that one. I have highlighted the pertinent part:
vernon
Entertainment Coordinator
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Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 12381
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Report Post
We're equivocating and begging the question if we insist upon using "baby" instead of "fetus" in a debate setting.
When my wife was pregnant we always referred to the "baby" in there, and I think most people do.
But since we are here to debate whether a baby and a fetus are morally equivalent--which I think they are, then we have to structure the debate and accept terms we might not like.
If we (prolifers) define "baby" as beginning at conception, then when we argue about a "baby" with someone who defines it as beggining at birth, it makes for a very messy discussion, expecially since here in a debate setting we are trying to prove the moral equivalency, and forcing the term "baby" is forcing the postion the adversary disputes.
But if we should all agree that the term baby applies at conception, then we still have the problem of coming up with a term for what to call the baby in its various stages before it is born.
However...once a prochoicer entertains any hypolthetical which would imply the personhood of the fetus, then it is perfectly fair to resort to using the word baby or child.

reply from: yoda

What?
Forcing a mother to watch her hired killer kill her child is just as bad as being killed? Are you serious? Really?
Why should she not feel "torment" for doing such a horrible thing? Is that not the purpose of a conscience? Might that not prevent future abortions?
Seriously, you think that having to watch your VICTIM die is just as bad as being the victim?

reply from: sander

You're right, there were roughly 6 million people murdered in the Jewish Holocaust, in the American Holocaust there have been over 5 million murdered, so guess we haven't caught up yet...but, it's coming soon.
Here's the definiton of holocaust:
Dictionary.com Unabridged
"any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life"
Do you still deny that abortion on demand has created a holocaust?
Someone, especially it's own mother would show just a little compassion during it's dying moments gives that life much respect. If you can't see that, then God help you, Carolmarie...I mean that sincerely.
So, it really is the mother that matters most. And you still don't see that as a problem?
It wouldn't be necessary for anyone to legislate that if abortion is made illegal, you are for abortion becoming illegal, right?
It has all ready destroyed her baby. You have your priorities very screwed up. I urge you to re-think your position.
Abortion is destroying another life....what about the baby?
So, the baby is secondary in the abortion issue to you, well, that's ludicrous. How could you possibly support the mother over the child and still remain pro-life?

reply from: carolemarie

Because think about it, you have to watch your child die...you can't stop it or take it back, you just have to watch? That is sick
God doesn't want babies to die, or their mothers to be tortured. He LOVES people...

reply from: yoda

What is sick, hiring someone to kill your child, or being forced to watch as they carry out your orders?
Surely you can see that the "sickness" is in the killing, not in being forced to watch what you yourself have caused to happen, right?

reply from: sander

GOD DEMANDS JUSTICE
What on earth part of that do you not understand???????
It's like talking to a brick wall.
"Think" about this...that woman just sentenced her child to death...Please tell me, before I totally give up on you, that you understand God demands JUSTICE!
JUSTICE demanded a price and Jesus paid it on Calvary, but He did not do away with earthly justice. HINT Romans 13.
OH MY GOD...you can't possibly be that dense.
You've chosen sides...you're siding with the mother and her hurt feelings over the dead baby, good luck with explaining that one to God.
Zephaniah 3:1. Woe to her who is rebellious and polluted, To the oppressing city! 2. She has not obeyed His voice, She has not received correction; She has not trusted in the LORD, She has not drawn near to her God. ... 5. The LORD is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He never fails, But the unjust knows no shame. NKJV

reply from: Banned Member

Justice is not torture. Justice is reparation for the damage that ones sins have caused. In society we call call it paying your debt to society. The death of the unborn child has robbed the world and society and taken something irreplaceable.
You cannot condone abortion because some may not be able to forgive themselves for what they have done.
Many women that have abortions are completely heartless, and have no remorse for killing an unborn child what-so-ever.
You cannot say that abortion is wrong and at the same time say that there can be no repercussions for that action of killing ones own child, a fellow human being to other human beings.
How could abortion be illegal and at the same time the law be able to overlook it when it happens?

reply from: carolemarie

GOD DEMANDS JUSTICE
What on earth part of that do you not understand???????
It's like talking to a brick wall.
"Think" about this...that woman just sentenced her child to death...Please tell me, before I totally give up on you, that you understand God demands JUSTICE!
JUSTICE demanded a price and Jesus paid it on Calvary, but He did not do away with earthly justice. HINT Romans 13.
OH MY GOD...you can't possibly be that dense.
You've chosen sides...you're siding with the mother and her hurt feelings over the dead baby, good luck with explaining that one to God.
Zephaniah 3:1. Woe to her who is rebellious and polluted, To the oppressing city! 2. She has not obeyed His voice, She has not received correction; She has not trusted in the LORD, She has not drawn near to her God. ... 5. The LORD is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He never fails, But the unjust knows no shame. NKJV
God desires mercy and requires it of us as well. What you want isn't justice. It is punishment. Now if you want to say that women should be punished for choosing abortion by being forced to watch their child die in front of their face, well that is one thing. It is honest. You want them to suffer for what they did. I don't blame you. That is a reasonable reaction to that article. But don't call it justice. Nobody is helped by it, nothing is righted.
But to say this would be justice is a lie. It is revenge for choosing abortion.

reply from: Banned Member

So put your justice where your mouth is...
How would you carolmarie, enact justice in the situation where a woman illegally seeks and/or acquires an abortion? that is legal justice, in a court of persons? If she is guilty of having or seeking an abortion, what would be the sentence?
The consensual laws of peaceable people must be upheld, how would you uphold them?

reply from: faithman

GOD DEMANDS JUSTICE
What on earth part of that do you not understand???????
It's like talking to a brick wall.
"Think" about this...that woman just sentenced her child to death...Please tell me, before I totally give up on you, that you understand God demands JUSTICE!
JUSTICE demanded a price and Jesus paid it on Calvary, but He did not do away with earthly justice. HINT Romans 13.
OH MY GOD...you can't possibly be that dense.
You've chosen sides...you're siding with the mother and her hurt feelings over the dead baby, good luck with explaining that one to God.
Zephaniah 3:1. Woe to her who is rebellious and polluted, To the oppressing city! 2. She has not obeyed His voice, She has not received correction; She has not trusted in the LORD, She has not drawn near to her God. ... 5. The LORD is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He never fails, But the unjust knows no shame. NKJV
God desires mercy and requires it of us as well. What you want isn't justice. It is punishment. Now if you want to say that women should be punished for choosing abortion by being forced to watch their child die in front of their face, well that is one thing. It is honest. You want them to suffer for what they did. I don't blame you. That is a reasonable reaction to that article. But don't call it justice. Nobody is helped by it, nothing is righted.
But to say this would be justice is a lie. It is revenge for choosing abortion.
SSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO it is not justice to put serial killers, rapist, and dope heads into prison? What is the difference? When a mother kills a born child she goes to prison, why do killer moms of the womb child get a free walk if abortion is made illegal? You wouldnt know justice if it bit you on the behind. But being around gospel perverters like Holick it is understandable why you are confused.

reply from: Banned Member

We can be merciful, but that does not mean that must we condone murder, and unrepentant murder is a matter that only God can rectify. I cannot forgive anothers sins, only Christ may do that. Hell exists for a reason, and the unrepentant go there according to the justice of God by the very choices that that person makes.
This is not a Jesus that is given to handing out absolution carelessly. The repentant are forgiven, and are commanded to sin no more. This is a Jesus who is fair and demands and will require justice.

reply from: carolemarie

I agree abortion is horrilbe. I think that we allow children to die is to America's shame. But I don't believe in jailing, making women view the remains of their children is helpful in any way.
Jailing Doctors is.

reply from: sander

We aren't willingly allowing children to die in America, their mothers are.
If you can't see that, there truly is something terribly wrong with your logic.
You can't even bring yourself to say that abortion is murder, it's more than just "horrible", it's the WILLFUL act of murdering a defensless child in the womb.
Can you not even see that much?
God....gives.....mercy.....to......the......truly.....repentant.......person.
Typing it in a way that will cause you to read it slow perhaps will help your understanding. One can hope, anyway.
And to be truly rependant you have to face the sin head on and not sugar coat it...you cheapen God's mercy.
What we want is indeed justice, have you not ever read Romans 13??????
If you think revenge is just being made to look on the child you killed, then you're more gone than I realized.
God is the one who exacts revenge, but if you would dare read Romans 13 you will find out that He has placed people in authority to exact punishment on the ones who do deeds such as murdering their own child.
Who has duped you, Carolmarie? What kind of ministry are you sitting under? Or are you sitting under any? Because you're either not listening well, or someone is leading you astray.
God will have the last say on the mother who kills her own child, and trust me, she'll wish the only thing she had to do was look on the baby while he or she took it's last breath.

reply from: yoda

Since when have those two things been incompatible?
Isn't it justice when a murderer goes to prison as "punishment"?

reply from: yoda

That's interesting. You said "their children", not "their unborn children".
Does that mean you would be against a law that required a women who had killed her born kids to look at their dead bodies would not "serve any purpose"?
You would be against that too?

reply from: carolemarie

Yes I would be against that as well....

reply from: carolemarie

I would make performing an abortion against the law, like it use to be, and punish those who perform them, not those who seek them.
Also that is the intent of the prolife movement (at least 96 percent of us)

reply from: faithman

Would you care to link us to the research on that one?!! Who is saying that 96% of pro-life is that stupid?

reply from: carolemarie

We aren't willingly allowing children to die in America, their mothers are.
If you can't see that, there truly is something terribly wrong with your logic.
You can't even bring yourself to say that abortion is murder, it's more than just "horrible", it's the WILLFUL act of murdering a defensless child in the womb.
Can you not even see that much?
God....gives.....mercy.....to......the......truly.....repentant.......person.
Typing it in a way that will cause you to read it slow perhaps will help your understanding. One can hope, anyway.
And to be truly rependant you have to face the sin head on and not sugar coat it...you cheapen God's mercy.
What we want is indeed justice, have you not ever read Romans 13??????
If you think revenge is just being made to look on the child you killed, then you're more gone than I realized.
God is the one who exacts revenge, but if you would dare read Romans 13 you will find out that He has placed people in authority to exact punishment on the ones who do deeds such as murdering their own child.
Who has duped you, Carolmarie? What kind of ministry are you sitting under? Or are you sitting under any? Because you're either not listening well, or someone is leading you astray.
God will have the last say on the mother who kills her own child, and trust me, she'll wish the only thing she had to do was look on the baby while he or she took it's last breath.
I know that God gives mercy to the repentent. I am not disputing that.
No body has duped me, I wonder the same about those who are so obsessed with justice that they have no room for love or mercy.
I go to a wonderful church here in Texas, just because I am for mercy and grace doesn't make me less of a Christian. I have been forgiven for a lot and I offer the same grace to others. I don't have a bag of rocks. I know that God is good and kind and wants to forgive and restore.
There is a balance.

reply from: faithman

We aren't willingly allowing children to die in America, their mothers are.
If you can't see that, there truly is something terribly wrong with your logic.
You can't even bring yourself to say that abortion is murder, it's more than just "horrible", it's the WILLFUL act of murdering a defensless child in the womb.
Can you not even see that much?
God....gives.....mercy.....to......the......truly.....repentant.......person.
Typing it in a way that will cause you to read it slow perhaps will help your understanding. One can hope, anyway.
And to be truly rependant you have to face the sin head on and not sugar coat it...you cheapen God's mercy.
What we want is indeed justice, have you not ever read Romans 13??????
If you think revenge is just being made to look on the child you killed, then you're more gone than I realized.
God is the one who exacts revenge, but if you would dare read Romans 13 you will find out that He has placed people in authority to exact punishment on the ones who do deeds such as murdering their own child.
Who has duped you, Carolmarie? What kind of ministry are you sitting under? Or are you sitting under any? Because you're either not listening well, or someone is leading you astray.
God will have the last say on the mother who kills her own child, and trust me, she'll wish the only thing she had to do was look on the baby while he or she took it's last breath.
I know that God gives mercy to the repentent. I am not disputing that.
No body has duped me, I wonder the same about those who are so obsessed with justice that they have no room for love or mercy.
I go to a wonderful church here in Texas, just because I am for mercy and grace doesn't make me less of a Christian. I have been forgiven for a lot and I offer the same grace to others. I don't have a bag of rocks. I know that God is good and kind and wants to forgive and restore.
There is a balance.
But you are the one out of ballance! Mercy has no where to land until justice is established. You totally deny love and mercy for the womb child, because you want to cover up the fact you killed a few, unless it serves your purpose to talk down to those who haven't. You are either very confused, and pervert theology because of very bad teaching, or you are a subversive who wants to make sure womb children are never equal under the Law. Either way you are a pathetic excuse for pro-life, and one who should be shunned, not followed.

reply from: yoda

On what grounds? If a woman kills her born kids, why should she not be required to look at what she has done? Is that too "cruel" a punishment for you? Should we pay for therapy for her, so she doesn't feel bad about herself for killing her kids?
Yes, but you said that women who self-abort would just "go free" also, right? So where is the justice in that? Let a murderer go free because they are a woman? Or because they are the mother of a dead child that they killed?
Let's assume that your figure is correct, how does that make it "right"?
If 99% of the people say that adultery is okay, would that make it right?

reply from: faithman

On what grounds? If a woman kills her born kids, why should she not be required to look at what she has done? Is that too "cruel" a punishment for you? Should we pay for therapy for her, so she doesn't feel bad about herself for killing her kids?
Yes, but you said that women who self-abort would just "go free" also, right? So where is the justice in that? Let a murderer go free because they are a woman? Or because they are the mother of a dead child that they killed?
Let's assume that your figure is correct, how does that make it "right"?
If 99% of the people say that adultery is okay, would that make it right?
WELL ! according to her, the man would be guilty, but the women would go free. Women are just to fragile to be held accountable for wrong doing. They may just not be smart enough to distinguish right from wrong either. At least by CM's example!!

reply from: sander

Then what does He give those who do not repent?
Your own words convict you...you said there is "balance".
Yes, God does want to do all those things you mentioned, but you cheapen His mercy by leaving out His Justice!! IT'S GOD'S JUSTICE THAT DOES THE BALANCING!
Who has given you a sickenly sweet Gosepl?
God only extends HIS MERCY to the repentant. The rest live by chance.
Have you ever read Romans 13? Why do you refuse to aknowledge God's Word in this case? Do you fear to know how He truly believes? Perhaps you fear that you will have to face things you're not prepared to do? If that's the case, then God is patient.
You see righteous judgment as a bag of stones, because of that mentality, you've given yourself the authority to give special dispensation to post abortive mothers. You're so sure you have that right that the baby is now secondary to the issue. That alone should give you great pause.
I feel like I'm talking to someone who is willingly deaf, I hope I'm wrong.
Someone has duped you, Carolmarie, and you've been told...now God will hold you accountable for the knowledge that you now have.

reply from: carolemarie

On what grounds? If a woman kills her born kids, why should she not be required to look at what she has done? Is that too "cruel" a punishment for you? Should we pay for therapy for her, so she doesn't feel bad about herself for killing her kids?
Yes, but you said that women who self-abort would just "go free" also, right? So where is the justice in that? Let a murderer go free because they are a woman? Or because they are the mother of a dead child that they killed?
Let's assume that your figure is correct, how does that make it "right"?
If 99% of the people say that adultery is okay, would that make it right?
1. Politics is the art of what is possible. You are not going to get abortion banned if you insist on jailing women. What is your goal? Saving lives, or seeing that people are jailed? It is a trade off. The greatest good is accomplished by jailing Dr not women.
2. FYI, in America we don't force convicted murders to view their victims. We have never done that, and probably never will. It would fall under cruel and unusual category.
Carolemarie

reply from: carolemarie

They will know we are Christians by our __________________, what goes there? Justice? Being morally superior to others? Our works? Nope.
LOVE is the answer.
God loves us WHILE we are still sinners, dead in our sins.
We love Him because He FIRST loved us!
God desires to have mercy on us. And He calls us to be imitators of Him. He was out seeking the lost, the broken, the SICK. He came to find us and bring us to Him.
If you die not repenting, you will encounter the justice of God. But right now, we practice the same kindness toward the lost as we want God to show us.
If you really believe that a deterrant is needed, you should be advocating the death penelty for anyone who gets an abortion or there is no justice. It is only logical that murderers should be put to death...an eye for an eye
And you should make it retroactive, because otherwise people got away with murder. Where is the justice there? YOUR position is inconsistant, not mine.
You will receive the same mercy from God that you practiced! So be careful when you demand that people "pay the last penny".
I know that I am right on this. I suggest that you ask your pastor!
Blessings,
Carolemarie

reply from: sander

So, bottom line, Romans 13 has no point and God probably should have thought twice about adding that?
I know you believe you're right...that's never been in question.
But, you have missed the point entirely, on purpose or because of blinders, I'm not sure...God knows.
I'm not demanding anything, GOD DEMANDS JUSTICE, so be careful who you subscribe this to.
If God did not demand justice, then Jesus went to the cross for what reason?
]Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Please, please note that Jesus placed JUDGMENT before mercy.
And NO WHERE in scripture does it say we are not to face the consequences of our actions in this life we reap what we sow, God WILL NOT BE MOCKED.
If I've missed the scripture that contradicts this truth, I ask you to please show me.

reply from: Faramir

http://www.catholicexchange.com/node/69463

reply from: 4given

LOVE! I haven't sang this song in some time. It is between you and God Carole. Reminding one of their sin/ past- It serves no purpose but to hinder the daily walk. You answer to God. We all do. You know full well what you did was wrong. You have been active trying to prevent that- successfully. I am thankful for your presence at the clinic. Don't be discouraged.

reply from: sander

LOVE! I haven't sang this song in some time. It is between you and God Carole. Reminding one of their sin/ past- It serves no purpose but to hinder the daily walk. You answer to God. We all do. You know full well what you did was wrong. You have been active trying to prevent that- successfully. I am thankful for your presence at the clinic. Don't be discouraged.
I hope you heaven't mis-understood. I'm not taking Carol to task because she had abortions.
I don't question her repentance and her walk with God.
We are debating the idea that in this life we face consequences for our actions and because of that the post-abortive woman who aborts AFTER it becomes illegal will have to face the consequences of her part, within the law.

reply from: 4given

Perhaps. I am not interested in reading through pages of her sin debt. Within the law, after abortion becomes illegal- she would not have to pay for it. Is that what the "debate" is? Because she is post abortive, she should have to contend with harrassment over what she did? I offered my opinion up a week ago about the "what if/when if"- Move on. She is pro-life. We all have differing opinions. Maybe we need some pro-aborts to join in on the fun. Draw the line. I am not interested in judging her or your past. We are a diverse community.

reply from: sander

Perhaps. I am not interested in reading through pages of her sin debt. Within the law, after abortion becomes illegal- she would not have to pay for it. Is that what the "debate" is? Because she is post abortive, she should have to contend with harrassment over what she did? I offered my opinion up a week ago about the "what if/when if"- Move on. She is pro-life. We all have differing opinions. Maybe we need some pro-aborts to join in on the fun. Draw the line. I am not interested in judging her or your past. We are a diverse community.
Apparently you still mis-understand.
This is NOT about her, this is about the post abortive woman after abortion becomes illegal.
I've never once said that she should pay anything to anyone, nor have I brought up her abortions.
I might as well be talking with someone who has never had an abortion, in other words, it is not personal.
And I resent being painted as one who is judging her past.

reply from: yoda

No, that would be retroactive punishment, and no one has spoken up for that idea so far.
The debate is about what to do once abortion becomes illegal, and women keep on aborting illegally. Do they get punished along with the abortionists, or do they just get a pat on the head?

reply from: 4given

No. They should also be charged/punished .

reply from: faithman

No. They should also be charged/punished .
That has been the whole issue in a nut shell. The one who was making the biggest issue of CM's past, was CM herself. She was using it as emotional black mail to undermine true justice for the womb child. We will never have true justice for the womb child until we restore them to legal personhood. If they become legal persons then all the rights and protections of the constitution apply. The 14th amendment says you can not put someone to death without due process. At least give the womb child a day in court before you kill them. "post abortive ministry" and "feelings" should never trump justice, nor should bending, and perverting scripture to make God out to be some kind of love patsy who hasn't a care about justice for the innocent. It is illogical, and unscriptural to do so.

reply from: carolemarie

So, bottom line, Romans 13 has no point and God probably should have thought twice about adding that?
I know you believe you're right...that's never been in question.
But, you have missed the point entirely, on purpose or because of blinders, I'm not sure...God knows.
I'm not demanding anything, GOD DEMANDS JUSTICE, so be careful who you subscribe this to.
If God did not demand justice, then Jesus went to the cross for what reason?
]Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Please, please note that Jesus placed JUDGMENT before mercy.
And NO WHERE in scripture does it say we are not to face the consequences of our actions in this life we reap what we sow, God WILL NOT BE MOCKED.
If I've missed the scripture that contradicts this truth, I ask you to please show me.

How about this?

For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:13
or
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matt 9:13

reply from: sander

James 2:13...this is not talking about a well thought out law that would hold the woman accountable for killing her un-born child, or any legally subscribed punishment for breaking any law. Using James 2:13 in the context of this debate the way you have, we could then also say let any and all criminals go free, after all we don't want to create any "merciless judgment" for ourselves.
Do you honestly think God does not expect us to face the consequenses of our illegal acts on earth?
The mercy He is talking about does not negate Romans 13. The exact same thing goes for Matt. 9:13...again, it does NOT negate Romans 13! Otherwise God would be contradicting Himself.
Do you think that God did not mean exactly what He said when it's recorded that "we reap what we sow, God will NOT be mocked?
Here is Romans 13, please tell me what you think.
Romans 13
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
Taking James 2:13 and Matt. 9:13 out of context creates a theology that is not of God. He does not contradict Himself.
If someone wrongs me, God expects me to forgive and show mercy on a personal level, but He does not expect the law to do the same.
God is a God of order.

reply from: faithman

That has been the whole issue in a nut shell. The one who was making the biggest issue of CM's past, was CM herself. She was using it as emotional black mail to undermine true justice for the womb child. We will never have true justice for the womb child until we restore them to legal personhood. If they become legal persons then all the rights and protections of the constitution apply. The 14th amendment says you can not put someone to death without due process. At least give the womb child a day in court before you kill them. "post abortive ministry" and "feelings" should never trump justice, nor should bending, and perverting scripture to make God out to be some kind of love patsy who hasn't a care about justice for the innocent. It is illogical, and unscriptural to do so.


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