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A Hard Question: What Should the Punishment Be?

by: Faramir

Both faithman and some abortion advocates I've encountered seem to agree on one thing at least. To be consistent, the prolifer should be advocating stiff sentences for women who abort, such as the death penalty, life imprisonment, or whatever the penalty would be if a born person were murdered.
I have seen abortion advocates taunt prloifers with this question many times: "What would the punishment be?" And often the prolifer is squeamish about advocating any punishment, let alone something very severe. And when the prolifer makes any excuse for the woman, the prochoicer declares that the prolifer does not really believe it is a child, afterall.
It's a fair question to ask. Why should the punishment for the woman who aborts be any less than the punishment which would be given to a woman who drowns her born children?
I have some reasons why I think the woman should be punished lightly which I will share later, when I have more time, but I'm interested to see what other think and why.

reply from: sander

You just can't let this go.
And you wonder why there are some who question your purpose of being here? You accuse others of giving ammo to the pro-aborts...well, you far excede anything they have done.
If you would put just a fraction of the time and effort into actually trying to do something to stop the slaughter of these babies as you do this ONE subject you might actually make a difference for them.

reply from: faithman

It is a total farce to claim to be pro-life, and then say law should be subjective concerning the slaughter of a spesific person group. The founding documents, and our pledge demand justice for all. How is it justice, and how does it serve the "cause", to have 2 standards one for the born and one for the womb child? It is illogical, and a totally endefencible position. If that is the position of the "movement" then count me out. For if that is the "official" position of the movement, it has become a bowl movement, and a complete load of crap.

reply from: Faramir

I'm asking a legitimate question, which has nothing to do with the previous controversy, Sander, but the point was raised.
If and when abortion becomes illegal, what should the punishment be?
Some of us would not want severe punishment for the woman who aborts, but faithman raises a legitimate point, in that how do we justify equating life in the womb with born life, and then punishish destruction of that life less severely than destruction of born life?
And could you give me a break, Sander, and stop being my personal moderator? I'm here to learn, and I want to know how to respond to some of the issues abortion advocates bring up.

reply from: carolemarie

How about stoning them? That would be really painful and you could yell at them while you do it. And those who don't want to throw the stones could just cheer instead.

reply from: Faramir

Carolemarie,
It's understandable that you would be upset by some of the treatment you've received here.
But I'm asking a legitimate question. If and when abortion can be made illegal, what would we do with women who have been caught having an illegal abortion?
If we say that we would let them off and only punish the abortionist, how do we respond to the abortion advocates and people like faithman who say that is inconsistent, and seems to demonstrate we don't equate womb life with born life.

reply from: carolemarie

Who cares what he thinks?

reply from: 4given

I don't know. When personhood is established, just as with other laws, the punishment should be left to the courts. It seems asking what the charges should be is more appropriate. Conspiracy to commit murder seems like an appropriate charge. No doubt many will rely on the insanity defense, as abortiionists (Tiller especially) can and have aborted for health reasons citing depression,anxiety etc.

reply from: sander

This has nothing to do with the previous controversy, you're joshing me, right?
I can't take this topic seriously if you can't admit this whole thread stemmed out of the "previous controversy".

reply from: Faramir

If we were to blame only the abortion provider and charge him with murder, we would still be equating life in the womb with born life. We couldn't charge him with murder, otherwise. Why would that not be sufficient?
The woman could still be seen as a victim of sorts, especially since we have had it beaten into our heads for 35 years that abortion is good. We have a brainwashed generation, and I don't see why ignorance and conditioning could not be taken into consideration.

reply from: Faramir

This has nothing to do with the previous controversy, you're joshing me, right?
I can't take this topic seriously if you can't admit this whole thread stemmed out of the "previous controversy".
Well then, I suppose if you can't take it seriously you might consider ignoring this thread, and not clog it up further with complaints about my posts.
There is a logic and consistency to faithman's position, and if we are not going to punish the women, it needs to be addressed.
So what if the qustion posed is because of the previous thread?
If you're done nitpicking my posts, I'd be interested in what you think about it.

reply from: carolemarie

Who cares what he thinks?
He also thinks it is okay to gun down abortion providers right now and that those who do it are hero's. Some killing is okay with him, provided he gets to pick who dies.

The law will make it illegal to perform abortions. The crime will be performing an illegal abortion. That legislation will call for certain penalties such as jail time and surrendering your medical licence. People who perform abortions will be lawbreakers.
It ends abortion which is suppose to be the goal of prolifers.

reply from: Faramir

What about self-aborting and women who get a "friend" to do it?

reply from: Faramir

Has he actually stated that?

reply from: carolemarie

What about self-aborting and women who get a "friend" to do it?
Then they will get away with it.

reply from: Banned Member

If and when abortion is defined as a crime...
I am not in favor of broad use of the death penalty in any instance. I am not however universally opposed to the death penalty.
That said, I would not favor the use of the death penalty in the case of a women killing her unborn child, that is what we currently call abortion. I think that intensive counseling of someone who would seek or acquire an abortion would certainly be in order. Perhaps some kind of prison/incarceration if an abortion were actually acquired, followed by close monitoring.
I do not think that in the case of abortion, as in any murder case, we can fail to ask questions regarding circumstances. Was their rape or insense involved? What is the age of the mother? Is she a minor? What is her mental or emotional capacity at the time? Was she coerced in any way? And the most important question... Was the abortion purely elective? A purely elective abortion by an adult female would certainly warrant the most harsh punishment
There is much in the way of cultural brainwashing that has occurred over the last 35 years regarding abortion. This will take time to combat and ultimately reverse.
I would however make anyone providing an abortion, or even offering an abortion, subject to a very long prison term. Obviously they would have their medical lisenses revoked, and any subsequent practice of abortion or medicine of any kind a violation of their release which would put them back in prison indefinately.

reply from: Banned Member

Anyone who has knowledge of an abortion would be an accessory to the fact. Anyone who aids or otherwise fascilitates an abortion would be sbject to punishment under the law. Any medical professional that suspects an abortion by a woman known to be pregnant, would be obligated to report their suspicions to law enforcement and those instance subject to investigation.
Friends would know that under the law, they would go to jail too.

reply from: 4given

Sadly, I believe there will always be an exception for rape and incest children.. And I believe you are correct to say that an adult woman would likely receive a higher penalty than a teen (should penalties be decided and made into law). The questions you posed should be asked now to all women who are going into clinics to abort.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, that's a good start.
My thing about this is that there's no need to get into specific penalties, because no new laws would be needed. Once we remove the arbitrary legal distinction between unborn and born, then all criminal laws that exist in a state would automatically apply to the unborn just like they apply to the born now.
Problem solved, IMO.

reply from: 4given

True. I was thinking that new laws would have to be created to accomodate the women this situation (unique circumstances) would create. I believe the courts would have to use discretion on an individual basis. (repeat offenders etc.) What do you believe the charge should be for women that abort when it is no longer legal? No woman was charged for obtaining an illegal abortion pre-Roe, correct?

reply from: yoda

If the legal distinction between born and unborn is removed, then the charge will be as if she had killed a newborn, true?
And no, I don't think any woman has ever been charged with having an abortion. But soon the human pesticides will make it a choice between doing that and "letting them go free", as Carole suggests. I don't like the later option.

reply from: 4given

So should the charge for the abortionist be capital murder? And the same for the mother?

reply from: 4given

What do you think the punishment should be?

reply from: Faramir

What do you think the punishment should be?
I had never thought about it until the question was posed by abortion advocates.
They ask because they think there are not enough prisons to hold these women and because they know a lot of us don't feel comfortable locking them up, and when we suggest a light penalty or no penalty, accuse us being inconsistent and not really believing the fetus is a child.
And then they extend the argument to ridiculous extremes about whether there will be "tampon police," and whether women will be regularly required to pee on a stick so we can keep an eye on them, etc.
Anyway, I really don't know, and I would love to hear what the experts have to say, but my thinking is that because abortion is so prevalent and because we have an "abortion culture" in which it has been beaten into our heads for a generation that it's acceptable and good, that we would need to phase-in punishment of the women, and restrict it to abortion providers.
Think of what would happen if smoking became illegal today. Some would quit and stop, but some are so addicted, they would do anything to get a cigarette, so if smoking became a crime, it would make sense to make the punishment light in the beginning, while establishing a non smoking culture.
So I think at least for the first 10 years or so that abortion is illegal that the punishment for illegal abortions should be restricted to the abortion provider, and probation given to the woman.
But I don't know how that would work, and there could be all kinds of complexities, such as individual states each passing their own laws. So I don't know about how things would pan out legally, but if I had any say over it, it would be leniencey for the woman, until our culture is fully reestablished as prolife.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

The punishment for the parties involved, dad, mom and paid assassin, should be the same as decreed for any other first degree intentional homocide.

reply from: Faramir

Maybe eventually, but it doesn't seem right to be that extreme right out of the box. Besides that, the woman will get the short end of the stick. She's stuck with the baby, and her impregnator can weasel out of it somehow, as well as can those "well meaning" friends and realatives who helped her.

reply from: 4given

They ask because they want to project the pro-life image/ agenda negatively. Maybe others will buy into it. I had someone I know and like say that "women shouldn't be forced into back alleys.." What?! Their propaganda and lies are spoon fed to the ignorant, naive and wounded.
We have had them here. Ridiculous is a good summary.
I am not sure that I agree with you. I feel a conspiracy charge for the mother and a murder charge for the abortionist would adequate. It is true we have a culture of death. Just as we have abusers and users or every opportunity- Because "society" says it is okay for me to act upon whatever desire I may employ, does that mean I should be less willing to obey laws that restrict that? "Don't imprison me- I am the addict-The dealer needs the real time.." Right?
I don't believe your analogy suits the topic. I understand your point, but equating an addiction to nicotine and the decision to abort/kill one's child is not comparable. Do you see why? You are devaluing human life. It does not sit well with me. I have heard heroin addiction "takes on it's own life", but even so- any parallel to addiction vs. innocent life would be from a selfish point of view.
I think that may be how it plays out. What is to stop women from killing their children, if the only thing they truly have to consider is the possibility of exposing their abortionist..?
I don't either. I am more concerned with the unborn than the fate of the mothers that choose to kill them. I will do what I can to prevent that death and regret until then.. and likely afterwards. I really don't want to "punish the woman"- I do however feel that unless America sees abortion as a crime, as it should, women will not be inclined to seek, educate and explore other ideas/alternatives.

reply from: Banned Member

Once it is illegal to acquire abortions, all medical professionals that provide abortions would be ffectively banned from providing an abortion, referring a patient to someone that can provide an abortion or counseling someone to have an abortion.
There would effectively no way to acquire an abortion. I would also believe that abortion methods would be banned from being taught at medical schools insofar as unnatural means of ending a pregnancy are concerned.
Medical facilities would be banned from having equipment used by abortion providers.
If a woman becomes pregnant, she will have to start thinking about having a child, not an abortion.
The result is that the vast number of abortions that occur would end. There would be no large need of prisons to lock up abortion mothers, because there would be almost no abortion taking place.
I also think that women in this day and age are informed enough to know that attempting to break the law would be ill advised, and that even if she were to go to an illegitimate abortion provider would be medically dangerous.
The way that Faramir suggests that abortion is somehow comparable to smoking is quite laughable. Abortion is not addictive and not a habit, it is a single premeditated act of killing.
Faramir as a name is from Tolkien, that brother of Boromir and it was he who rejected the allure of the evil of the one ring of power. Abortion is an evil that must be rejected in all its forms and like the one ring, destroyed, if we are ever to be rid of it completely. To attempt to use abortion responsibly is just as ridiculous as it was to attempt to use the one ring of power for good. Evil means cannot achieve any good at all.

reply from: Faramir

I never said it was comparable. I was making a point that obviously went over your head.
Yeah, I agree and never said or implied otherwise.

reply from: carolemarie

I think your time would be better spent trying to talk to people actually SEEKING an abortion then worrying about what type of punishment they should have to endure.
All the women you want to see punished for their mistakes are real flesh and blood people, someones mother or sister or daughter. Trying to punish women for sins you hate more than your own isn't the way to stop abortion.
For each of you, what do you actually do to help someone besides post on this board? Do you just talk or do you like JuJu Jellybean actually go and pray for these women. Do you go to the clinic and try to help like Yoda?
If you don't do anything aside post, you are doing nothing to stop abortion.
One of the most heartrenching stories I heard was my friend who wanted to know why God never sent anyone to help her...4 abortions, 2 states and nobody was there. I didn't know what to say to that....iI guess they were all posting somewhere....
Jesus had compassion on people and He loved them right where they were. And that is why we all love Him so much. He didn't wait to love us until we had our messes cleaned up, He came while we were in the mess and pulled us out and set us free. He didn't condem sinners, He died to set them free. And it made the religious mad in his day too. They conspired to kill Him for having the nerve to forgive sinners. It seems to me that nothing much has changed. The religious are still all about punishment and blame fixing and still hate grace....
Love is patient, Love is kind. Love doesn't keep a record of wrongs...that is what we are called to be, imitators of our God. I challenge you to do something to help, go to your local clinic and pray, or hold a sign saying I will help you...volunteer at a pregnancy help center DO something.
Carolemarie

reply from: Faramir

I don't have any interest in seeing anyone punished, but do have an interest in answering the punishment question, which comes up often on the pro abortion side.
And everything is not either/or. There doesn't always have to be "do this INSTEAD of that." Lots of things can be going on at the same time.

reply from: Banned Member

Part of this movement is to make it possible that women are no longer able to seek abortions by changing laws and changing hearts.
I do not claim to be sinless, but I can claim that my sins do not include the offense of murder or human taking life. No one has died as the result of my own sins. But even if I put faith aside I still find that I have a moral obligation to speak out against abortion where and when I can, including here.
Locally I post in forums simply to raise awareness about abortion laws and the impact of abortion and must do so anonymously since I am subjected to ridicule that excedes anything you can imagine here.
When you know a woman that has had an abortion, lamented it, and then gone on to consider another abortion, than yes, perhaps a little jail time might straighten her out.
I have stopped at least one abortion, and not by posting on the internet. I don't have an actual abortion clinic anywhere around me. Abortions occur at regular health clinics where one cannot even know what a woman is going there for. And believe me, no one ever says that they might be out of work for a few days because they are having an abortion.
People claim the right to abortion and yet their shame which is proper to the act persists, as it should. People should be ashamed of abortion.
Punished for their mistakes? Killing an innocent human being is not a mistake, it is a calculated act. Many women that have abortions are completely unrepentent; no remorse whatsoever.
Jesus forgave sinners their sins, and he told then to sin no more. He also told us to give our light to the world. Coddling sinners is not compassion. It simply aloows us to avoid uncomfortable discussions about abortion.
I am a Christian and yet the reality is however that I live in a secular society that for the most part is only going to understand that abortion is murder when, and only when women start going to jail for it. But do not worry, Jesus also told you to visit people when they are in prison. So punishment will open up all sorts of new avenues for Christian charity. We are suggesting punishment, not public stoning unto death nor crucifixion.
I write about abortion that lives might be spared, not people's feelings.

reply from: yoda

It should be whatever the laws in that state would dictate if the victim was a newborn instead of an unborn person.

reply from: yoda

I don't think that's a valid comparison. Having abortions is not physically addictive, and in fact there are some studies that show that the vast majority of women considering abortion would be dissuaded from having them if they were illegal.
I don't think we ought to compromise our moral standards for "practical" reasons. Morality is our only basis for opposing abortion, after all.

reply from: faithman

Gosh!!!! There is logic on this forum after all. I wounder how many of the "mercy" crowd visits those behind bars? That is a regular part of what I do outside of this issue. People who do evil, should face the penalty for it, no matter how many Jesus prayers they pray. But the penality should not be inhumane, and visits from people of faith are the main reason, our prison system is not overtly cruel. I have been a chaplin for a county jail, and I intend to go back to that line of work when the life issue is resolved. But for now, I intend to but my full effort, time, and money, into the cause of estabishing personhood for the womb child. That includes blind justice for those who kill them for what ever reason. If folks would put the energy they expend in grudge bearing, and hiden agendas, it would end much quicker. Then I am all for extending mercy to baby killers behind bars, just as I have done for the killers already there.

reply from: sander

Four abortions, 2 states and NOBODY was there? Really? I find that hard to believe. In the time it took to get pregnant two times (I'll cut her some slack and give her the two pregnancies) she should have been able to use that time to find at least one crisis pregnancy center...or perhaps one doctor that would help her adopt, or a church. Or how about just NOT getting pregnant again after the first abortion? She could have said no or use bc I don't buy that as "heart wrenching", I buy that as too lazy or too selfish or both to have taken the time to find viable alternatives. I buy that as someone with no capacity to take personal responsibility.
So she blames God and you blame those who post...nice.

reply from: carolemarie

Four abortions, 2 states and NOBODY was there? Really? I find that hard to believe. In the time it took to get pregnant two times (I'll cut her some slack and give her the two pregnancies) she should have been able to use that time to find at least one crisis pregnancy center...or perhaps one doctor that would help her adopt, or a church. Or how about just NOT getting pregnant again after the first abortion? She could have said no or use bc I don't buy that as "heart wrenching", I buy that as too lazy or too selfish or both to have taken the time to find viable alternatives. I buy that as someone with no capacity to take personal responsibility.
So she blames God and you blame those who post...nice.
Nobody was there...not anyone.
And I just wondered what you do aside from posting? Your committment to the babies is just to "talk tough"? How does that actually help someone change their mind? The Word says to love in deed, not just words.
Compassion helps people, regardless of what kind of pit they have dug for themselves.

reply from: sander

There comes a time when compassion can do harm. We are to speak the truth in love. You may consider this tough talk, but tough love is something that can also be used effectively.
You blame those who post and she blamed God...is that compassion?
And not for one second do I believe that nobody was there...she didn't get pregnant 4 times in a vacuum and she doesn't live in a vacuum.
One call to one pregnancy center, one call to a doctor who would help her adopt, three times saying no...any of those seem like a viable alternative?
And trying to turn this around to what "I" do doesn't cut it either. I didn't have one thing to do with one abortion. I've turned people's hearts around...no, I'm not going to go there, I shouldn't have to explain to you or anyone else what it is I do to help the cause, it's not an excuse for those who abort in the first place.
It's everyone's "choice" to take personal responsibility for their own actions.

reply from: yoda

I think that's a valid point in this context. It's like hugging a child when they are being intentionally bad... that's the wrong time for compassion. They will get the idea that you approve of their bad behavior that way. You've got to be stern with them until they show regret for, and maybe even a little shame for what they have done. There is time for compassion later, when they have proven their change of heart.
Doesn't sound like it to me, but of course I wasn't there. In the end, we must all face our bad deeds alone, with no one to lean on, IMO. There's an old saying, "We all die alone", and I believe it's true. No matter how many are holding your hand when you die, you die all alone (with reference to human companionship).

reply from: faithman

AAAAAAHHHHHHH the veil is beginning to lift. Compassion for the guilty becomes cruel, when it is at the expence of justice for the innocent victimized. People abort because they are selfish. People give womb children life, because they are willing to sacrifice themselves for the benifit of others. THAT, my friends, is the true meaning of love and compassion. Those who have killed to preserve self have a real hard time understanding that one. This issue is not about the guilty, no matter how many "WHAT IFS" you want to pile on it to self justify. This is not about a "movement" that cares more about looking pretty than stopping the slaughter. It ain't about personality cults, backwards collar wearing word stackers, politics, supreme court justices, faith or the lack there of. It is first last and always about little womb children who will die a very horible death by the thousands this very day. It is about putting all this BS aside, and focussing on the little ones [fetus in latin]. The first order of business is giving the womb child a voice. And in my experiance, nothing gives them a louder voice than the IAAP cards, that speak thousands of words in one little picture. Let us show the world how beautiful they are, what a mirical they are. What an evidence of a creator God they are, a what a wounderful gift they are from Him. Or, we can waist time justifying the unjust, extend compassion to the heartless at the expence of the helpless, and totally blur the issue of God's gift to us. The image of His face in the picture of a womb child.

reply from: MC3

I have often expressed my views on this issue before and I will do so again here.
Historically, laws against abortion have only targeted the abortionist. When abortion was illegal before, women were never indicted for having illegal abortions. My experience has been that most people in the pro-life movement want to see that same approach used when abortion is again illegal.
We take this view for pragmatic reasons. First, except in the extremely unlikely event that a woman is actually caught in the act of having an illegal abortion, a conviction would be virtually impossible.
Second, the woman is the best source of information and evidence needed to convict the abortionist. If she faced prosecution, she would never admit to the abortion which means the state would not get the evidence needed to convict the abortionist. That would leave him free to kill again. This doesn't excuse the woman for having participated in an illegal act. It simply recognizes that the public interest is best served by removing the abortionist from society, and that legal sanctions against the woman would reduce the chances of that happening. It's no different than the authorities granting immunity to a small-time drug user in exchange for information on a big-time drug dealer. Remember, the goal of the pro-life movement is to stop abortion. Imprisoning a woman who had an illegal abortion would prevent nothing since her child is already dead, but imprisoning the abortionist might save thousands of babies in the future. If giving women a pass on prosecution is the only way to get these guys, that is a deal worth making.
Third, given the expense of incarcerating someone, it makes no sense to take up a cell with a woman who had one abortion when that same space could confine an abortionist who might do them by the thousands. And make no mistake about it, jail is precisely where these moral degenerates deserve to be. Women who submit to abortions may or may not be fully aware of what they are doing, but the same cannot be said of the abortionist. When they pull those tiny arms and legs and heads out of women, they know for a fact that they are committing the most brutal of murders. There is not one person sitting in a jail cell anywhere in America who's committed an act any worse than an abortion. Furthermore, not one of those people victimized someone as utterly helpless as an unborn baby. So not only are abortionists contract-killers, they are cowards as well.
The bottom line is, there is simply no practical incentive for jailing women who submit to abortions. The odd thing is, it usually - not always, but usually - someone from the pro-choice crowd who argues that they should be. My suggestion is that, if these people think it's unfair or inconsistent for abortionists to go to jail but not their customers, let them lobby for legislation to put women in jail.
Before leaving, I want to make a point that is a little off-subject. A second ago, I characterized abortionists as contract-killers. This is something I have done many times in the past and it always causes the pro-choice gang to get their panties in a wad. But the irony is, the Mafia has a far more legitimate reason to object to this analogy. After all, they live by a code that prohibits their contract-killers from taking a hit on a child while abortionists take hits on nothing but children.
Just something to think about.

reply from: faithman

Usually I agree with you, but you are just simply wrong on this one. I could care less what most panty waisted pro-lifers think, and it is wrong for us to want special deals cut for one group of killers, and prosicute the other group which are responcible in the very same crime. Why couldn't the deal be cut with the abortionist to prosicute the guilt killer mom's? Why can't it go both ways? The abortionist couldn't kill the womb child if momma didn't lay down in front of him. Your usually logical mind has gone on vacation on this one. It is just simple an act of injustice to let criminals go free because of pragmatism. It is "pragmatism" that has kept abortion on demand legal for over three decades. SSSSSOOOOOO justice should not be blind because we don't have the stomach to see it thru? If abortion is just as bad as drowning the 2 year old, the justice demand that the penalty be the same. Pragmatism be damned.

reply from: Faramir

I don't think that's a valid comparison. Having abortions is not physically addictive, and in fact there are some studies that show that the vast majority of women considering abortion would be dissuaded from having them if they were illegal.
I don't think we ought to compromise our moral standards for "practical" reasons. Morality is our only basis for opposing abortion, after all.
That wasn't the point I was making. The point was that smoking is such a big thing in our country, if you make a law against smoking today, there will still be illegal smokers tomorrow.
With 4,000 legal abortion happening every day, if it becomes illegal today, there will not be 0 abortions tomorrow. Abortion is part of our culture, unfortunately, and my reasoning was that because of this, many women who abort do not quite get what they are doing, and if punishment of the woman were to be, it should be after we phase out being an abortion culture that has approved of it and encouraged it for a genration.
But MC3's reasoning for not punishing the woman is a whole lot better than what I've come up with.

reply from: yoda

How can an abortionist be convicted if the same evidence isn't enough to convict his "customer"? Don't we have to prove that someone was aborted in order to convict him? And if we prove that, haven't we proven that the woman is guilty also?
That may be the case now, but with the advent of human pesticides, that may change. We may have to face up to the challenge of prosecuting many, many "Do-it-yourself" abortions soon, so we'd better be thinking about that now. And I for one am not willing to "give them a pass" just because they didn't hire a personal hit-man for the job.
Her child may already be dead, but that is no different from putting someone in prison for killing a born child. Their child is dead also, but we still put them in prison as a lesson to them, and to other parents not to do the same thing. So while it may be impractical to apply the full extent of the law by putting women in prison, it would not be without purpose.
It's been my experience that matters of practicality are best left to prosecutors and courts, rather than writing special laws for practical reasons. If Roe is reversed on the basis that the unborn ARE person in the legal sense, then we will be left with the choice of backing up our assertion that the unborn are deserving of the same protection as the born, or caving in to "practical considerations" and passing special laws that make them less than equal to the born.
And the idea of doing that is just unthinkable to me. If I'm going to fight for years to raise the status of the unborn to the same as that of the born, I cannot in good conscience turn my back on them at the last minute and say to the unborn: "Oh wait, it was all a mistake, you're not really equal to born kids after all."
I just can't do that.

reply from: faithman

I don't think that's a valid comparison. Having abortions is not physically addictive, and in fact there are some studies that show that the vast majority of women considering abortion would be dissuaded from having them if they were illegal.
I don't think we ought to compromise our moral standards for "practical" reasons. Morality is our only basis for opposing abortion, after all.
That wasn't the point I was making. The point was that smoking is such a big thing in our country, if you make a law against smoking today, there will still be illegal smokers tomorrow.
With 4,000 legal abortion happening every day, if it becomes illegal today, there will not be 0 abortions tomorrow. Abortion is part of our culture, unfortunately, and my reasoning was that because of this, many women who abort do not quite get what they are doing, and if punishment of the woman were to be, it should be after we phase out being an abortion culture that has approved of it and encouraged it for a genration.
But MC3's reasoning for not punishing the woman is a whole lot better than what I've come up with.
His "reasoning" is just as flawed as anyone elses who say the guilty go free at the expence of the innocent. A law that makes abortion illegal with no penalty for the primary player, is illogical, stupid, and meaningless. Justce must be blind to the guilty, for the sake of the innocent, otherwise it ain't justice at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I see people talking about the child, the woman and the abortionist; but I don't see people talking about dad.
Dad should be held fullly responsible for whatever happens to the child. Whether the father actively promotes the abortion, or completely exits the picture, his irresponsibility or negligence should result in homocide charges being filed against him. It is only if the woman spurs and ignores the man's diligent efforts to care for the child, if she has the child killed despite his efforts, that he is to be found an unresponsible party. Otherwise, dad should be charged with homocide, especially if he thought he had a one night stand he could walk away from. You can't walk away from the responsibility for your living child, you are responsible for the child's death if you walk away from it.

reply from: yoda

That's even worse. Need I point out to you that we do have laws against murder today, and we'll still have murders tomorrow?
Again, the same is true for murder (of born people).
IF there is a justification, it would have to be pragmatic, because there is no moral reason that a prolifer could come up with on this subject.
But I've often enough stated my preference for morality over pragmatism, so I'm going to stick with my story.

reply from: yoda

What if he opposes the abortion and does everything he can to prevent it? How can you blame him then?
And how are you going to hold a Dad responsible if you don't hold Mom responsible? Are you going to give her a walk, and put him in jail?

reply from: faithman

What if he opposes the abortion and does everything he can to prevent it? How can you blame him then?
And how are you going to hold a Dad responsible if you don't hold Mom responsible? Are you going to give her a walk, and put him in jail?
Sheri the sexist would. She would have him raped to death in jail, while killer mom gets a free walk.

reply from: Faramir

For 35 years we've been brainwashed into thinking abrortion is good, that it just removes a blob of cells, etc. Our culture does not call it "legal murder."
Many have grown up (those who survived abortion) in this culture not knowing any better.
It might take another generation before it really sinks in that the life in the womb has a moral value equivalent to the born.
Until that time, as MC3 expressed, it makes the most sense to go after those who are most culpable, the abortion providers. They know what they are doing.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

What if he opposes the abortion and does everything he can to prevent it? How can you blame him then?
And how are you going to hold a Dad responsible if you don't hold Mom responsible? Are you going to give her a walk, and put him in jail?
My post says he is not responsible if he takes steps to care for his child, but she has it killed against his efforts. I had said he should be charged with homicide also. I deleted the word also, he sounded like an afterthought, when, in fact, he may be the most responsible party.

reply from: faithman

For 35 years we've been brainwashed into thinking abrortion is good, that it just removes a blob of cells, etc. Our culture does not call it "legal murder."
Many have grown up (those who survived abortion) in this culture not knowing any better.
It might take another generation before it really sinks in that the life in the womb has a moral value equivalent to the born.
Until that time, as MC3 expressed, it makes the most sense to go after those who are most culpable, the abortion providers. They know what they are doing.
And we have pointed out that you and MC3 are just simply wrong. It took over 100 years to get it thru americas head that slavery was wrong, but they didn't say "well it will take a while, so let um own a few until then". It took a while to get it thru the nazi's head that killing jews was wrong, put we shunned "pragmatism" and said the germans were retroactively guilty, even though it was legal to kill jews before the end of WW2. We didn't "Pragmaticly" allow the death camps to stay in operation, nor did we give the comandants a free walk, we hung them. The abortionist are not more culpable. They would go out of business with out customers. Most women know exactly what they are doing, when they lay down in front of the hired killer, and many times in real life, the deal is cut with the hired killer to get the one who paid them. If justice is to be truely blind, thenit must be the same for the born as it is the pre-born. Otherwise it ain't justice at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply from: carolemarie

For 35 years we've been brainwashed into thinking abrortion is good, that it just removes a blob of cells, etc. Our culture does not call it "legal murder."
Many have grown up (those who survived abortion) in this culture not knowing any better.
It might take another generation before it really sinks in that the life in the womb has a moral value equivalent to the born.
Until that time, as MC3 expressed, it makes the most sense to go after those who are most culpable, the abortion providers. They know what they are doing.
And we have pointed out that you and MC3 are just simply wrong. It took over 100 years to get it thru americas head that slavery was wrong, but they didn't say "well it will take a while, so let um own a few until then". It took a while to get it thru the nazi's head that killing jews was wrong, put we shunned "pragmatism" and said the germans were retroactively guilty, even though it was legal to kill jews before the end of WW2. We didn't "Pragmaticly" allow the death camps to stay in operation, nor did we give the comandants a free walk, we hung them. The abortionist are not more culpable. They would go out of business with out customers. Most women know exactly what they are doing, when they lay down in front of the hired killer, and many times in real life, the deal is cut with the hired killer to get the one who paid them. If justice is to be truely blind, thenit must be the same for the born as it is the pre-born. Otherwise it ain't justice at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can want to see women jailed, but reality is that it will never ever happen. Those of us who have had abortions will never stand for a law like that to be passed, because it is wrong and isn't aimed at stopping abortion, but making sure women are punished. The aim should be to end abortion.
I am a big fan of mercy...I like it alot and I want lots of it over my life, and the bible does say that those who practice mercy will receive it! So I am going to continue to love those who need mercy and grace and pour it out on them.

reply from: Banned Member

Four abortions across two states? How could anyone be there? That kind of abortion mentality must take a lot of time and effort. If no one was there for it might possibly be because they could not track her down. Perhaps she simply did not listen to those who might have helped her? Or perhaps she simply avoided them at all costs because she knew what they would say. No one likes to take credit for their own sins, and worse they will often blame anyone else for them, or everyone else, for not getting involved.
Often times "dad" does not even know the women was pregnant, and certainly does not know if she has an abortion.
1.5 million abortions every year. How many of these abortions occur when the father of the child is notified. I would be shocked if it were even half of them, and it is probably much less than that.
When the woman decides to keep the child he certainly hears about the pregnancy, and often not until after the child is born.
As long as abortion remains legal, every person in America is an abortion survivor. As long as every mother that becomes pregnant in America has a choice to kill, every child born is an abortion survivor.
The aim is to stop abortion, and with abortion effectively defined as murder, and the murder of the unborn equal to that of the born, the number of those that choose abortion should logically be very small.
I would also add that anyone that provides or administers an abortion causing medication would and should be subject to the full power of the law and charged with murder when abortion becomes legal.

reply from: Faramir

The "father" got his jollies and moved on. He's more of a murderer than the woman he used. He knows she will the one to get stuck holding the bag.

reply from: yoda

It takes two for a brainwashing to occur, one to do the washing, and the other to donate their brain. People have to be willingly stupid, IMO, to be "brainwashed" to believe that killing babies is "okay".
Or, it may never happen, who knows? Morals cannot be taught to an unwilling student. And a willing student will learn them on his/her own.
I have no problem with making them the primary target of any laws against abortion. I do, however, have a problem with the idea that we put laws on the books that say that unborn kids are not worth protecting as much as born kids.
You know, in most states when two underage kids have sex, they are technically breaking the law. They don't get prosecuted, however, because in most states the prosecutors look upon that as "kids just being kids". But they do not change the laws to exempt kids from prosecution when both of them are underage, they just don't enforce the law.
I don't care whether laws are enforced against Moms who murder their kids right away, that's up to the individual states. But if any prolifers support the passing of any laws that specifically exempt murdering Moms from prosecution, they will no longer be prolife in my book.

reply from: yoda

The aim of all criminal laws is to stop a particular act, and a law against abortion that punished women would be no different. Putting women in jail would have the effect of convincing them they ought not to abort, just as putting them in jail for killing their born kids deters them from that act.
There is no difference in guilt, no matter how you slice it. And there is no difference in the purpose of punishment, either.

reply from: yoda

I don't know which "father" you are talking about, but this father would have whipped your ass if you had said that to him face to face after his child had been killed against his wishes, and in spite of his offer to raise the child.
Be more careful with your generalizations, please.

reply from: faithman

For 35 years we've been brainwashed into thinking abrortion is good, that it just removes a blob of cells, etc. Our culture does not call it "legal murder."
Many have grown up (those who survived abortion) in this culture not knowing any better.
It might take another generation before it really sinks in that the life in the womb has a moral value equivalent to the born.
Until that time, as MC3 expressed, it makes the most sense to go after those who are most culpable, the abortion providers. They know what they are doing.
And we have pointed out that you and MC3 are just simply wrong. It took over 100 years to get it thru americas head that slavery was wrong, but they didn't say "well it will take a while, so let um own a few until then". It took a while to get it thru the nazi's head that killing jews was wrong, put we shunned "pragmatism" and said the germans were retroactively guilty, even though it was legal to kill jews before the end of WW2. We didn't "Pragmaticly" allow the death camps to stay in operation, nor did we give the comandants a free walk, we hung them. The abortionist are not more culpable. They would go out of business with out customers. Most women know exactly what they are doing, when they lay down in front of the hired killer, and many times in real life, the deal is cut with the hired killer to get the one who paid them. If justice is to be truely blind, thenit must be the same for the born as it is the pre-born. Otherwise it ain't justice at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can want to see women jailed, but reality is that it will never ever happen. Those of us who have had abortions will never stand for a law like that to be passed, because it is wrong and isn't aimed at stopping abortion, but making sure women are punished. The aim should be to end abortion.
I am a big fan of mercy...I like it alot and I want lots of it over my life, and the bible does say that those who practice mercy will receive it! So I am going to continue to love those who need mercy and grace and pour it out on them.
That is exactly the reason we don't let criminals vote. Yah, "love, and practice mercy" for fellow killers, and totally ignore love and mercy for the womb child. Pervert the scripture to excuse yourself, and ignore the womb child. Totally undermine justice for the womb child so you can feel good about yourself. My agenda is not punishing women, my agenda is establishing justice for the womb child that the already born enjoy. I do not care who kills them, what their faith is, nor their gender. Justice is blind to all that. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime is an old saying that has kept many out of jail. Nobody should really cares what killers have to say about what penalty should be given to those who kill. So if bank robbers say it is wrong to put bank robbers in jail, we should let them out? Charles Manson has been in prison for 40 years of a life sentance, and he actually didn't kill anybody. But low and behold women guilty of the killing of a helpless child deserve to walk free because the baby killers thenselves say so. Boy howdy, now that is justice aint it? If the aim is stopping abortion, then the law must have enough teeth to get the job done. If murder is murder then the punishment must be the same accross the board reguardless of gender or faith. That is simple justice, and that is the scripture unperverted. But you could care less about justice, and would pervert anything to secured your free walk, and preserve self, which flies in the face of 2000 years of christian doctrine.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I don't know which "father" you are talking about, but this father would have whipped your ass if you had said that to him face to face after his child had been killed against his wishes, and in spite of his offer to raise the child.
Be more careful with your generalizations, please.
I was just about ready to praise Faramir for his excellent response above. Men who commit fornication and adultery in a one night stand and then leave, letting the woman go ahead with an abortion, I find more fault with his attitude.
Your sensitivity to this subject suggests that a woman in your life may have aborted your child against your personal desires.

reply from: Faramir

I don't know which "father" you are talking about, but this father would have whipped your ass if you had said that to him face to face after his child had been killed against his wishes, and in spite of his offer to raise the child.
Be more careful with your generalizations, please.
I was just about ready to praise Faramir for his excellent response above. Men who commit fornication and adultery in a one night stand and then leave, letting the woman go ahead with an abortion, I find more fault with his attitude.
Your sensitivity to this subject suggests that a woman in your life may have aborted your child against your personal desires.
I was of course not referring to men who assume the resonsibility, but those who walk away, don't care, or who don't want to know. They wash their hands of it all, but are just as guilty or even could be more guilty.

reply from: faithman

I don't know which "father" you are talking about, but this father would have whipped your ass if you had said that to him face to face after his child had been killed against his wishes, and in spite of his offer to raise the child.
Be more careful with your generalizations, please.
I was just about ready to praise Faramir for his excellent response above. Men who commit fornication and adultery in a one night stand and then leave, letting the woman go ahead with an abortion, I find more fault with his attitude.
Your sensitivity to this subject suggests that a woman in your life may have aborted your child against your personal desires.
I was of course not referring to men who assume the resonsibility, but those who walk away, don't care, or who don't want to know. They wash their hands of it all, but are just as guilty or even could be more guilty.
They would only be guilty if they advocated the killing of the child. A man can already by law be forced to support a child they fathered. Irresponcibility is not the same as the crime of murder. So please don't blur the issue with yet another side issue. Don't you think there is enough already?

reply from: joe

Then apply it to all repentant criminals. Love them all and set them all free.

reply from: Faramir

I don't think it's a side issue at all. You can make some comparisons to the holocast and to killing born children, but it's not exactly the same and has a lot more complications.
When a woman aborts there are a host of accomplices beyond the abortionist, but they would get off, and she would be punished for their "crimes" too.

reply from: sander

So, you'll leave the pro-life movement and champion abortion rights again if a new law holds the person accountable who makes abortion possible in the first place?
Because you won't be able to ride that fence and please tell how you would make sure it "never" happens.
It would be a good idea if you did a study on mercy.
Would you have poured out mercy and grace on Hitler, Stalin, or any number of mass murderers?
You need to answer that question at least within yourself, because I think it will give you a better idea on how God intends us to "pour" out mercy.
And the next time you have a friend that has multiple abortions and blames God you might want to remind her that our Saviour's mother had an un-planned pregnancy while being an un-married young woman.

reply from: Faramir

Her pregancy was the most planned pregnacy that ever was or ever will be.

reply from: sander

Her pregancy was the most planned pregnacy that ever was or ever will be.
Well, it certainly wasn't planned by her!!!

reply from: faithman

I don't think it's a side issue at all. You can make some comparisons to the holocast and to killing born children, but it's not exactly the same and has a lot more complications.
When a woman aborts there are a host of accomplices beyond the abortionist, but they would get off, and she would be punished for their "crimes" too.
Your problem is contained in the first three words of your post. YOU DON"T THINK!!!! it is exactly the same. Part of hitlers plan included abortion. If abortion is murder thenit is exactly the same as killing a born person. That is another one of your's and CM's problems. You agree with planneed parenthood that a womb child is a second class citizen, and unworthy of the same consideration as the already born.If it waddels and quacks like a borthead duck..................

reply from: Faramir

Her pregancy was the most planned pregnacy that ever was or ever will be.
Well, it certainly wasn't planned by her!!!
We Catholics have a great reverence for Mary, and I know no disresect was intended, but to refer to her pregnancy as "unplanned" is to minimize her important role. She was given a choice, and responded with, "Be it done to me according to thy will."
She might not have planned to be the God-Bearer, but it was offered to her, and it could not have happened to her without her full knowledge and consent.
An "unplanned pregnancy" implies, "whoops, I didn't expect this."

reply from: faithman

So, you'll leave the pro-life movement and champion abortion rights again if a new law holds the person accountable who makes abortion possible in the first place?
Because you won't be able to ride that fence and please tell how you would make sure it "never" happens.
It would be a good idea if you did a study on mercy.
Would you have poured out mercy and grace on Hitler, Stalin, or any number of mass murderers?
You need to answer that question at least within yourself, because I think it will give you a better idea on how God intends us to "pour" out mercy.
And the next time you have a friend that has multiple abortions and blames God you might want to remind her that our Saviour's mother had an un-planned pregnancy while being an un-married young woman.
You are asking a womb child serial killer sociopath to think logicly. Telling a fish not to swim would be a better use of your time. We have a killer, who says the whole pack of killers, will make sure our laws are perverted to assure future killers can experiance "mercy". But I ask again, what about mercy for the womb child? where is love for those not yet born? SSSSSOOOOOO we have to pervert justice to exstend "christian mercy"? What a farce. What a total slap in Christ's face. And on good friday none the less.

reply from: sander

Oh brother.
Faramir, of course she consented, do you think a Godly woman such as her would have done otherwise??? If you think she expected this, then you'll have to show me the scripture.
The only point I was trying to make is she did not plan, she did not know before hand, the whole situation, which thankfully, she consented to came as a surprise...sheesh, to say otherwise would be rather odd since she was a virgin.
Please don't take what I said out of context and make it some theological disagreement...let's just drop it, okay?

reply from: faithman

AAAAAHHHHHH now you have experianced the word twisting exalence of Sir doofis, our resident knight. He hasn't seen a pro-life windmill he won't attack to defend baby killers!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply from: sander

I'm beginning to wonder.

reply from: 4given

"The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear
him, and delivereth them."
Psalms 34:7, KJV
"Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee:
he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved."
Psalms 55:22, KJV
"A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy
right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee."
Psalms 91:7, KJV
"The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and
plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will
he keep his anger for ever. He hath not dealt with us after
our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For
as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy
toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the
west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth
them that fear him."
Psalms 103:8-13, KJV
"If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall
stand?"
Psalms 130:3, KJV
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto
thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him,
and he shall direct thy paths."
Proverbs 3:5-6, KJV
"Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed
on thee: because he trusteth in thee."
Isaiah 26:3, KJV
"And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This
is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand,
and when ye turn to the left."
Isaiah 30:21, KJV
"It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed,
because his compassions fail not. They are new every
morning: great is thy faithfulness."
Lamentations 3:22-23, KJV
"Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one
of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of
your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of
more value than many sparrows."
Luke 12:6-7, KJV
"And we know that all things work together for good to them
that love God, to them who are the called according to his
purpose."
Romans 8:28, KJV
"Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you."
1 Peter 5:7, KJV

reply from: Faramir

AAAAAHHHHHH now you have experianced the word twisting exalence of Sir doofis, our resident knight. He hasn't seen a pro-life windmill he won't attack to defend baby killers!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, I respectfully objected to a mischarcterization of Mary's situation.

reply from: 4given

"But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation." (Psalm 13:5)
"Great deliverance giveth he to his king; and sheweth mercy to his anointed, to David, and to his seed for evermore." (Psalm 18:50)
"For the king trusteth in the LORD, and through the mercy of the most High he shall not be moved." (Psalm 21:7)
"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever." (Psalm 23:6)
"Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD.[/B]" (Psalm 25:7)
"Hear, O LORD, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me." (Psalm 27:7)
"Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper." (Psalm 30:10)
"I will be glad and rejoice in thy mercy: for thou hast considered my trouble; thou hast known my soul in adversities;" (Psalm 31:7)
"Thy mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds." (Psalm 36:5)
"But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever." (Psalm 52:8)
"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions." (Psalm 51:1)
"For thy mercy is great unto the heavens, and thy truth unto the clouds." (Psalm 57:10)
"But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD, in an acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in the truth of thy salvation." (Psalm 69:13)
"For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." (Psalm 86:13)
"For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee." (Psalm 86:5)"But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, long suffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth." (Psalm 86:15)
"The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.... For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.... But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;" (Psalm 103:8, 11, 17)
"For thy mercy is great above the heavens: and thy truth reacheth unto the clouds." (Psalm 108:4)
"But do thou for me, O GOD the Lord, for thy name's sake: because thy mercy is good, deliver thou me.... Help me, O LORD my God: O save me according to thy mercy:" (Psalm 109:21, 26)
"The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy." (Psalm 145:8)

reply from: sander

Wonderful Scriptures....
Do you think these apply to mass murderers? I only ask because they're without context.

reply from: faithman

AAAAAHHHHHH now you have experianced the word twisting exalence of Sir doofis, our resident knight. He hasn't seen a pro-life windmill he won't attack to defend baby killers!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, I respectfully objected to a mischarcterization of Mary's situation.
No, you are playing a semantical word game to confuse the issue. Sander was exactly right. She was a little jewish girl pregnant out of wedlock and could have been stoned if joseph haden't have started to put her away privily. She did not plan to get pregnant. In the eyes of man, she was an out of wedlock crisis unplanned pregnancy. No mischaraterization there at all. So when are you going to stop all these stupid games and actually start advocating justice for the womb child??? HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply from: 4given

And I praise Him for His mercy, grace and unending love. His mercy and blood is enough for an entire generation. When we are washed of our sins, by Christ the Lamb, they are gone forever. He is the healer and restorer. Nothing but His precious blood can do that. Sin no more. A sinner is saved by grace. Our sins are cast into the sea- and never ever to return. We are cleansed. Mothers that have aborted and repented are saved by grace. They are new creatures in Christ. We are all restored and redeemed by His blood- sacrificed for every sin- even abortion.

reply from: 4given

Christ died for the sins of the whole world. What exactly are you asking? Do you feel that Christ does not forgive a repentant, broken heart? Forgiveness is for everyone- but they have to be broken in spirit and ask for Him to cover their sin.

reply from: Faramir

She wasn't pregnant out of wedlock. She was betrothed to Joseph and he would have had rights to her as it was. She would have been stoned for adultery, and in the "eyes of man" would have been an adulterer, if Joseph would have revealed that, but instead, being a good man, decided to be merciful, but an angel told him what happened, and he stayed with her.
I merely objected to a mischaracterization of Mary's role. Calling it an unplanned pregnancy is insulting and diminishes the Mother of God.
But my objection takes nothing away from my agreement with you that life in the womb must not be destroyed by abortion.

reply from: faithman

That relieves the obligation to God just fine. But the obligation to the innocent one who was wronged is still the duty of government. The scripture does not relieve the penalty of evil doing in the temporal, no matter how many Jesus prayers you Pray. Many a convicted killer went to be with the Lord as a new creature, when exicuted. That is not mean, nor vengance, nor any name you want to call it. That is simple justice. Please do not join the scripture perverters to give serial womb child killers a free walk. Ted bundy professed Christ before he got stuck for killing women. His debt to God was paid by the blood of Christ. His debt to sociaty, and the slaughtered innocent was paid by a needle. The same with Carla Fay Tucker.

reply from: joe

To deny the sin is not repentance. A mother that aborted must acknowledge that sin as murder.
Should all murderers and criminals that claim repentance be set free?

reply from: faithman

She wasn't pregnant out of wedlock. She was betrothed to Joseph and he would have had rights to her as it was. She would have been stoned for adultery, and in the "eyes of man" would have been an adulterer, if Joseph would have revealed that, but instead, being a good man, decided to be merciful, but an angel told him what happened, and he stayed with her.
I merely objected to a mischaracterization of Mary's role. Calling it an unplanned pregnancy is insulting and diminishes the Mother of God.
But my objection takes nothing away from my agreement with you that life in the womb must not be destroyed by abortion.
That is where you catholics are wrong. She was not the mother of God, as God is was and always will be. she was the mother of Christ's humanity, not his deity.

reply from: faithman

Christ died for the sins of the whole world. What exactly are you asking? Do you feel that Christ does not forgive a repentant, broken heart? Forgiveness is for everyone- but they have to be broken in spirit and ask for Him to cover their sin.
That relieves the obligation to God just fine. But the obligation to the innocent one who was wronged is still the duty of government. The scripture does not relieve the penalty of evil doing in the temporal, no matter how many Jesus prayers you Pray. Many a convicted killer went to be with the Lord as a new creature, when exicuted. That is not mean, nor vengance, nor any name you want to call it. That is simple justice. Please do not join the scripture perverters to give serial womb child killers a free walk. Ted bundy professed Christ before he got stuck for killing women. His debt to God was paid by the blood of Christ. His debt to sociaty, and the slaughtered innocent was paid by a needle. The same with Carla Fay Tucker.

reply from: Faramir

She wasn't pregnant out of wedlock. She was betrothed to Joseph and he would have had rights to her as it was. She would have been stoned for adultery, and in the "eyes of man" would have been an adulterer, if Joseph would have revealed that, but instead, being a good man, decided to be merciful, but an angel told him what happened, and he stayed with her.
I merely objected to a mischaracterization of Mary's role. Calling it an unplanned pregnancy is insulting and diminishes the Mother of God.
But my objection takes nothing away from my agreement with you that life in the womb must not be destroyed by abortion.
That is where you catholics are wrong. She was not the mother of God, as God is was and always will be. she was the mother of Christ's humanity, not his deity.
You mean Christ is just a human?
No--he is God and Man.
But he is the "person" of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.
A woman gives birth to a PERSON and not just a blob of flesh.
To deny that Mary is the Mother of God, is to deny that Jesus is God.
But you missed the point I made previously. Mary would have been stoned for adultery, not for being pregnant out of wedlock.

reply from: joe

??????????
Jesus was before Mary.

reply from: Banned Member

Jesus Christ did not grant mass absolution. The unrepentant sinner will still pay for their sins in and throughout eternity.
The offering on the cross was an invitation to salvation, not a reason to sin without remorse.
Abortion is murder, has been murder and shall remain murder, and those that kill the unborn child and do not acknowledge that action before the Lord in repentance will pay dearly.
"Whatsoever you do to the least of these, you do to me also."

reply from: 4given

I am not perverting the Scripture. I look to God's Word for answers. I want to understand what the Scripture says about mercy.. Sadly, women are free to murder the fruit of their womb. All sin is cleansed through Christ's blood when one seeks His repentance with a broken heart. This includes those that let the innocent blood spill onto the ground. I am in no way trying to diminish the act or give into petty justification for it. You know this.

reply from: faithman

She wasn't pregnant out of wedlock. She was betrothed to Joseph and he would have had rights to her as it was. She would have been stoned for adultery, and in the "eyes of man" would have been an adulterer, if Joseph would have revealed that, but instead, being a good man, decided to be merciful, but an angel told him what happened, and he stayed with her.
I merely objected to a mischaracterization of Mary's role. Calling it an unplanned pregnancy is insulting and diminishes the Mother of God.
But my objection takes nothing away from my agreement with you that life in the womb must not be destroyed by abortion.
That is where you catholics are wrong. She was not the mother of God, as God is was and always will be. she was the mother of Christ's humanity, not his deity.
You mean Christ is just a human?
No--he is God and Man.
But he is the "person" of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.
A woman gives birth to a PERSON and not just a blob of flesh.
To deny that Mary is the Mother of God, is to deny that Jesus is God.
But you missed the point I made previously. Mary would have been stoned for adultery, not for being pregnant out of wedlock.
OOOOOHHHH you are SSSSSOOOOO confused. Mary gave Him his humanity not His deity, He was always God before He took up residence in her womb. He became as one of us [human] thru a human. But to say that Mary was mother to his deity means she was before Him. Her egg was impegnated by pre-existance. She could not be mother of deity, as that would mean she pre-existed pre-existance. But of course an illogical mind will believe anything.

reply from: Faramir

??????????
Jesus was before Mary.
Of course He was. And He called her "Mother."
Mary was the Mother of Jesus, who is God and Man. Mary is a creature like the rest of us, but bore God in her womb, and is therefore the "Mother of God," but not in the sense that she originated God, of course, since she is God's creation too.

reply from: sheri

Mary is the Mother of God! That is one of the oldest beliefs in christianity! She is the God-bearer. Are you people JWs?
Dont you believe in The Trinity?
No wonder you guys are so messed up, you dont even believe in the Divinity of Christ.

reply from: joe

The divinity of Christ was never questioned. The exaltation of a woman to a God like status is wrong.
I would never disrespect Mary but she is not divine.

reply from: faithman

??????????
Jesus was before Mary.
Of course He was. And He called her "Mother."
Mary was the Mother of Jesus, who is God and Man. Mary is a creature like the rest of us, but bore God in her womb, and is therefore the "Mother of God," but not in the sense that she originated God, of course, since she is God's creation too.
....and you claim to be pro-life. You make our point, and yet hang on to error. She gave Jesus His humanity by donating the egg. The "seed" was the word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God. The word became Flesh and dwelt among us. AS A MAN!!! But once again you want to get into knit picking word games, than actually making any kind of an attemp to stand for the womb child. What will your next infussion of confussion be.................

reply from: Faramir

The divinity of Christ was never questioned. The exaltation of a woman to a God like status is wrong.
I would never disrespect Mary but she is not divine.
Of course she is not divine and we don't say she is.
But her Son is divine, for sure.
Mary is the mother of a divine son. He is divine because he is God.
She is not just mother to flesh and bones but is the mother of a person. And his person is Christ, the second person of the Trinity.
The title Mother of God is one of respect to Mary, but more importantly is one that hammers home that Christ is not just a man but is God, incarnate.

reply from: faithman

We are not dening his devinity, we just don't belive Mary gave it to Him. You can not show one post where I deny the devinity of Christ. So don't even try.

reply from: Faramir

We are not dening his devinity, we just don't belive Mary gave it to Him. You can not show one post where I deny the devinity of Christ. So don't even try.
And your mother didn't give you your soul. But your personhood is bound up in it, and your mother is the mother of your person, and not just of your flesh.
Nobody says Mary gave Jesus his Divinity. That's impossible. But he chose her to be his mother when he chose to assume a human body. You are not being consistent if you cannot see her as the mother of God, IF you believe Jesus is God. If you say she is NOT the mother of God, you are saying Jesus is not God.

reply from: Faramir

Source for the info below: http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp

Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.
A woman is a man's mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her - not Joseph - that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).
Since Mary is Jesus' mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.
Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son's divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person - Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14) - and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ's human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.
The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ's human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons - one divine and one human - united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary's divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary's divine maternity, just as other Christians do.
Since denying that Mary is God's mother implies doubt about Jesus' divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.
The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord.

reply from: joe

We are all Christians here and follow Christ, no need for religious conflict. If that title acknowledges that Mary is important but not divine....fair enough.

reply from: Faramir

We are all Christians here and follow Christ, no need for religious conflict. If that title acknowledges that Mary is important but not divine....fair enough.
Ok, agreed. I have not always been a Catholic, and I've forgotten I used to be horrified by the "Mother of God" title, thinking that Catholics were elevating her above God, until it was thoroughly explained to me. So I should also understand if others would take an issue with it.

reply from: faithman

But notice, not one mention of justice for the womb child in this, or just about any other post. Make it about women, or make it about one faith or another. But insted of advocating justice for the womb child, and posting anything of worth to that end, we get horse apples.

reply from: Faramir

I'm not concerned as much about justice for the dead, but justice for the living. Let's focus on justice for the ones we CAN save.

reply from: carolemarie

Now I am a sociopath?
This from a man who applaudes the murder of abortion providers and considers those who do it hero's?

reply from: sander

Christ died for the sins of the whole world. What exactly are you asking? Do you feel that Christ does not forgive a repentant, broken heart? Forgiveness is for everyone- but they have to be broken in spirit and ask for Him to cover their sin.
Of course I believe all those things.
I was just asking what the context was, in relation, to this thread.

reply from: 4given

Carolemarie- you are a sinner saved by grace, as am I. I am so thankful for that. Don't play into it. Do not be discouraged. The enemy will and has used our weakness for his gain.

reply from: joe

You have no respect for the ones you killed. Stop defending the abortion doctors and those that hire them to kill the innocent.

reply from: sander

Fine.
But, in what context????
I know I'm speaking English here.

reply from: faithman

This from a baby killer, and guarantees that baby killers will keep future baby killers from meeting justice by perverting the law?

reply from: faithman

I'm not concerned as much about justice for the dead, but justice for the living. Let's focus on justice for the ones we CAN save.
That is my whole point sir doofis. You can not secure safty for anyone if you are not willing to punish those who compromise safty.

reply from: joe

4given, why does carolemarie claim repentance but cannot call abortion murder? How does a sinner repent by denying their sin?
Showing mercy and compassion to an unrepentant killer is dishonoring the "least of these" among us. I for one will not be guilty of this slaughter.

reply from: 4given

RIGHTEOUSNESS. JUSTICE. MERCY. Isn't that what we all desire? The unborn sacrifice has gone on for long enough. God I pray that this generation will seek You and Your will. I ask for the hearts of this rebellious generation to be pricked by Your Truth. God I plead Your blood over this nation and this forum. In Jesus Name take authority over the hearts of those that post and read here Lord. Let us be a blessing to You. Let us return to You. Let us be an example of all You desire of us. Lord end abortion in America! Unite the generations to serve You Lord. I claim authority over the spirit of oppression Lord. I want to serve You. I love and praise You. Let us be a generation that pleases You. End abortion. Send revival to America Lord. In Your Name...

reply from: faithman

A three score serial killer? Id say that anyone who kills three innocent helpless children in cold blood at least has sociopathic tendancies.

reply from: 4given

Fine.
But, in what context????
I know I'm speaking English here.
Then you also read English.

reply from: 4given

Abortion is murder. One can not repent without acknowledging their sin for what it is.
She is repentant. Her walk has been difficult and will continue to be. Forgiveness is forever. Abortion is forever. We are to encourage one another.

reply from: sander

4given, why does carolemarie claim repentance but cannot call abortion murder? How does a sinner repent by denying their sin?
Showing mercy and compassion to an unrepentant killer is dishonoring the "least of these" among us. I for one will not be guilty of this slaughter.
I don't think you're ever going to get anyone who has aborted then turned to the Lord to admit it as murder. Murder is a strong word and carries with it very bad connotations.
What they don't realize is that if they would say, "Lord, I've committed murder, please forgive me", they would then know the real meaning of mercy, for what other sin can be so horrible, yet God be so willing to forgive?
It's human nature to cover and duck, so to speak.
But, God said those who covered their sins would be found out, but those who reconize the sin then repent would find mercy.
God isn't as interested in man's law as He is His own laws...maybe that's where some are stumbling?
It seems they're painted into a corner

reply from: sander

Fine.
But, in what context????
I know I'm speaking English here.
Then you also read English.
Yep, I read it too.
All I'm asking is this study, for lack of a better word, on mercy directed to....????
Is it for those who disagree on some level with CM, or is it for someone like FM, or me, or....?????
To post scriptures without proper context is just an exercise in posting scriptures.

reply from: carolemarie

It applies to all of us Sander! That is God on mercy.

reply from: carolemarie

When I became a Christian at that moment, ALL my sins were forgiven. Even the ones I haven't committed yet.

reply from: 4given

But as a Christian, you understand the need to confess your sins- seeking forgiveness. Repentance and remission. Being a Christian does not mean that you are saved by grace, You need to confess, repent and be forgiven and cleansed, just as I do.

reply from: sander

Don't you agree that posting anything without any context makes it hard for the reader to understand what is the purpose?
I realize mercy applies to all of us, WHEN we repent, but it does not apply to the un-rependant. They will one day pay and there will be no grace.
And truly, we must admit we have sinned before we can repent and to try and sugar coat any sin with euphemisms doesn't do God's mercy any justice.
I know it's hard to admit we've done something wrong, but still God expects us to be brutally honest with Him. We're not fooling Him, He knows anyway.
I don't know why it's so hard for you to say abortion is murder, on some level you must know it's more than a "bad choice".
When I say I hope you can come to terms with that one day, I don't mean just you...I fall short too in so many ways.
I can't say by the grace of God go I, for abortion was NEVER an option in my life...but, God says when we've been angry with our brother without just cause it's the same as murder...there I have fallen short and I pray that God forgives me of that murder.

reply from: faithman

That relieves the obligation to God just fine. But the obligation to the innocent one who was wronged is still the duty of government. The scripture does not relieve the penalty of evil doing in the temporal, no matter how many Jesus prayers you Pray. Many a convicted killer went to be with the Lord as a new creature, when exicuted. That is not mean, nor vengance, nor any name you want to call it. That is simple justice. Please do not join the scripture perverters to give serial womb child killers a free walk. Ted bundy professed Christ before he got stuck for killing women. His debt to God was paid by the blood of Christ. His debt to sociaty, and the slaughtered innocent was paid by a needle. The same with Carla Fay Tucker. This is not about gender or faith, it is about blind justice for the womb child.

reply from: 4given

Likewise abortion was never a consideration/option in my life. I could not understand those that chose abortion. I did not believe that women were vulnerable enough to have an abortion understanding the simplest terms.. (pregnancy=baby etc) I was disgusted by those that sought to have their children killed. God has given me a new heart. Although I may never understand His mercy or that He so freely gave His life for the unrepentant as well as those that seek Him, I still have to acknowledge the Truth. He forgives and loves and covers all shame. Bless His Name. Call upon Him and He will deliver you. Let justice roll down, righteousness exalt this land.

reply from: sander

Are you saying that you are no longer disgusted by those who murder their own children in the womb? And that vulnerbility is now a reason?
He gave His life for all, but NOT all will recieve His mercy...they will reject Him and do so now.

reply from: 4given

context...
"The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and
plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will
he keep his anger for ever. He hath not dealt with us after
our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For
as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy
toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the
west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth
them that fear him."
Psalms 103:8-13, KJV "Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD." (Psalm 25:7)
"I will be glad and rejoice in thy mercy: for thou hast considered my trouble; thou hast known my soul in adversities;" (Psalm 31:7)
Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions." (Psalm 51:1)
"For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee." (Psalm 86:5)"But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, long suffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth." (Psalm 86:15) The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy." (Psalm 145:8)

reply from: carolemarie

Abortion was the only choice I though I had at the time. If I had to go back in time, I would meet Jesus at 13 and avoid a life time of pain.

reply from: lukesmom

You are very, very lucky. I said the same thing and it came back to bite me in my (big ) butt.
To be serious now, this topic has had me thinking. I understand and agree that the unborn should be given all the rights of the born and that includes retribution against the parents who murder them. But this seems simplistic and generalized when I think of several very young despirate mothers who wanted to keep their child but were told by parents, boyfriends that they would no longer be allowed to live in thier home. All of the moms, that come to mind, already had 1 or more children. These moms were torn apart making a decision that may make thier present child/ren homeless. These moms were told to be a "good" mother and care for the born children and that being a "good" mom ment not bringing another child into the mix. Too late once pregnant, I know. There are also the uninformed who have grown up in this permissive society and actually believe the proabort slogans. They are truely ignorant to what abortion really is. Then there are the parents who despirately want their unborn child, are told there is a prenatal diagnosis and told to "terminate" for medical reasons. All too often doctors don't give any other choice and yes, shocked and grieving parents can't think well for themselves. I agree, the Carifairy's who know they are killing a child and just plain don't care should be punished but not every woman or man fits that discription. That is what is bothering me with alot of the posts here.
With all of that said, aren't we all getting a little ahead of ourselves here? Shouldn't our main objective be to #1 change the laws and #2 educate the uneducated and change one person at a time before we try to decide who gets punished and who doesn't?

reply from: 4given

You had other options. I believe you did not think there was another option. Abortion is murder. I understand that is where the conflict here lies. Abortion is legalized murder. Do you agree? God is still using you because you are obedient to Him. Don't be discouraged.

reply from: carolemarie

Yes, I agree that abortion is legalized murder.

reply from: carolemarie

Re your friend:
I am still trying to figure out how to answer her. She is so fragile that I want to make sure I say what God wants her to hear right now.

reply from: sander


I don't see how that makes me lucky. I could have had abortions, was even asked by my doctor...he heard a resounding NO! It is now physcially impossible for me to get pregnant, so I don't see how this will come back to bite me in any area of my person....size of butt notwithstanding.
The situations you're re-telling here speaks of the selfishness of people.
I have a hard time with these kinds of situations, and find little if any reason to sympathize.
My daughter got pregnant in high school, her boyfriend and his mother said all those things and more and she was inclined to listen....but, thank God she has a praying mother and abortion was NOT going to touch my home or family..."NO plague shall come near my dwelling". Psalm 91
And tomorrow we celebrate this darling baby's 15th birthday!
Yes, my daughter had our support, but I can tell you NO person on this earth would have ever convinced me of an abortion...no threats, not anything.
There is help avaiable...there are more crisis pregnancy centers than there are abortuariums.
To cut slack, for lack of a better term, to those of these kinds of situations diminishes the counter stories, the ones who against all odds do the right thing, imo.
I agree.
This whole idea behind this thread, imo, was a waste of time and space, spurred by someone's sensibilites that were offended.

reply from: Faramir

It's interesting that you wasted so much time here posting and *****ing and moaning about it.
Do you intend to continue being my personal moderator and critic? I don't mind if you do, but it sure seems like a waste of time.

reply from: Faramir

She was referring to pride.
We all could do the most horrible things depending upon the circumstances.
Had you been born into a bad home, raised in poverty, thrown out in the street, been raped and become pregnant, you might very well have at least been very tempted to abort, and might have actually done it.
It "bit her on the butt" because she was smug and prideful and felt she was better than others, but now she has the humility to see she was wrong.

reply from: yoda

Correct. That was the beginning of my involvement in the abortion issue.
And I'm not unique, by any means. Because of the legal situation, many men who would be wonderful fathers are denied the chance and are shattered by the knowledge that their child was slaughtered in spite of everything they could do to save him/her. It's worse than being told that you are going to be killed, IMO.

reply from: yoda

Then in the future please don't lump all men into one category. Just like women, some are responsible and some aren't.

reply from: yoda

That piques my curiosity. How could you say that you thought there was no other choice? Why was not having an abortion "not a choice"? What was so awful about the prospect of allowing your baby(ies) to live that eliminated it as even a possibility?

reply from: yoda

It's actually quite a privilege to have your very own personal moderator, isn't it?

reply from: lukesmom

I believe you are refering to me. It "bit me in the butt" because never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would be told one of my children would die. No one thinks of that. Everyone believes every pregnancy is going to be healthy and result in a healthy baby. No way would I EVER have an abortion...regardless BUT you can't even begin to imagine the shock and pain of being told your child is deformed and possibly in pain and will not live. It is a normal human response to try to get away from the pain. Thank God I was mature enough and educated enough to give myself time to think and not listen to doctors and instead listen to God's voice. THAT is why I say, "There but for the grace of God go I".
Many women really do not see anyother choice because no other choice is presented to them. Sander-it is wonderful your family supported your children. I have children, two are teenagers now. If one of them is an expectant parent, they have the right to an abortion without giving me the chance to support them in ctt. I hope I have raised them with enough trust to tell me but you never know. Fear affects you in many ways and makes you act in ways you never expected.
Now, with the situations I have mentioned. No parent should have to feel forced to decide between thier children. That is where I try to step in and give options. I am a pretty good problem solver. Many people aren't and actually do only see one option. What I do not understand is the mind set that abortion is better than adoption because "I could never give my child away". Somehow it is better to kill him/her than allow him/her life with someone else. For some really stupid reason abortion is easier????
I agree there is no excuse to abort. I also agree there are a lot of "weak" people out there unwilling/unable to sacrifice for their children. Many of us here are testiment that anyone can chose life and go on. That is why I am here, as testiment, big butt and all.

reply from: lukesmom

Thank you for even trying. It is funny but I feel the same way, that sometimes it is God's words flowing through my fingers typing. I am often suprised what has been written and I know it didn't come from me! God does work in mysterious ways through us. I am praying!

reply from: sander

I believe you are refering to me. It "bit me in the butt" because never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would be told one of my children would die. No one thinks of that. Everyone believes every pregnancy is going to be healthy and result in a healthy baby. No way would I EVER have an abortion...regardless BUT you can't even begin to imagine the shock and pain of being told your child is deformed and possibly in pain and will not live. It is a normal human response to try to get away from the pain. Thank God I was mature enough and educated enough to give myself time to think and not listen to doctors and instead listen to God's voice. THAT is why I say, "There but for the grace of God go I".
Many women really do not see anyother choice because no other choice is presented to them. Sander-it is wonderful your family supported your children. I have children, two are teenagers now. If one of them is an expectant parent, they have the right to an abortion without giving me the chance to support them in ctt. I hope I have raised them with enough trust to tell me but you never know. Fear affects you in many ways and makes you act in ways you never expected.
Now, with the situations I have mentioned. No parent should have to feel forced to decide between thier children. That is where I try to step in and give options. I am a pretty good problem solver. Many people aren't and actually do only see one option. What I do not understand is the mind set that abortion is better than adoption because "I could never give my child away". Somehow it is better to kill him/her than allow him/her life with someone else. For some really stupid reason abortion is easier????
I agree there is no excuse to abort. I also agree there are a lot of "weak" people out there unwilling/unable to sacrifice for their children. Many of us here are testiment that anyone can chose life and go on. That is why I am here, as testiment, big butt and all.
Makes perfect sense now, I wasn't equating your personal situation with being lucky in my case. You're right...I never had that kind of heart break and your story is one of true inspiration.
If I can use my family as an example, I'm sure your children have been raised to trust you and make the right, if be it hard, choice. What an example you have set. I don't believe that could be lost on them.

reply from: sander

It's actually quite a privilege to have your very own personal moderator, isn't it?
Make that a "moderator" without an opinion, then he might think it's grand.

reply from: faithman

You continue to be inconsistant. A life time of pain? I thought your little Jesus prayer took care of all that? I am not trying to inflict any more pain. Nor am I down playing the love and forgiveness of Christ. But it is the "life time of pain" testamony that I have seen the most powerful in turning abortion minded away. We had a lady at our clinic that was post abortive, and her words turned many away from the mill. Her main coment were, " they don't tell you what it feels like to kill your own children, I have to live with the fact that I murdered my child for the rest of my life. Please don't make the same mistake." When we injure ourselves, the wound usually leaves a scare even though it is healed. My scares are a good reminder not to do things that made them. I am all for the healing that the Lord Jesus gives us thru His grace and mercy, but my wrong doings have left spiritual scares that remind me to avoid activities that caused them. I can not ignore or forget the children who have died in the clinics , Nor can I ignore the fact that some wounds seem to be healed, but underneath are still full of infection. They must be lanced and cleaned. To "heal over" this issue, with mercy for the guilty, at the expence of justice for the innocent, will rot the cause of womb life from with in. that is unacceptible IMO.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

You continue to be inconsistant. A life time of pain? I thought your little Jesus prayer took care of all that? I am not trying to inflict any more pain. Nor am I down playing the love and forgiveness of Christ. But it is the "life time of pain" testamony that I have seen the most powerful in turning abortion minded away. We had a lady at our clinic that was post abortive, and her words turned many away from the mill. Her main coment were, " they don't tell you what it feels like to kill your own children, I have to live with the fact that I murdered my child for the rest of my life. Please don't make the same mistake." When we injure ourselves, the wound usually leaves a scare even though it is healed. My scares are a good reminder not to do things that made them. I am all for the healing that the Lord Jesus gives us thru His grace and mercy, but my wrong doings have left spiritual scares that remind me to avoid activities that caused them. I can not ignore or forget the children who have died in the clinics , Nor can I ignore the fact that some wounds seem to be healed, but underneath are still full of infection. They must be lanced and cleaned. To "heal over" this issue, with mercy for the guilty, at the expence of justice for the innocent, will rot the cause of womb life from with in. that is unacceptible IMO.
The only thing that counts is what we become in the end:
Ezekiel 18:26 "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."
Ezekiel 18:27-28 "Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices righteousness, he will save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die."
If carolmarie has turned away from sin, and only practices righteousness, she shall live (eternal life).
For the once saved, always saved "Christian", if he turns back to sin, he shall die (eternal death).
See Hebrews 6:4-6 about "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries, he that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses; of how much sorer punishment , supose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace."
We MUST go on to perfection. The bond-servants with faith know that doing what Christ says leads to life. Leaving the vine, doing your own thing, leaves you a dry dead branch meant for the fire. Good fruit comes from obeying Christ, we must abide in his vine.
There are many who claim to be saved. Their deeds show they are hypocrites (mere actors); they have no intention of being Christ's bond-servants or doing only what pleases Him. Neither have they received the Holy Spirit, which is given only to the repentant. They are fooling themselves to think they were repentant when they came before God; they desire to continue their pet behaviors, which clash with what the Light exposes as evil.
If you have started on the Exodus you must move forward. If we have been baptized in the waters of the Red Sea, as ancient Israel was, we have buried and left behind the old way of life. Anyone turning back to Eygpt, that is, becoming entangled in the former bondage to sins, will be destroyed. Salvation comes from having the faith to move ahead and into the promised land. The entire Exodus and Books of Moses are physical parables of our Spiritual exodus. Let us not fall as they did, because of disbelief they became disobedient and died in their sins. May we have the faith to not faint, but continue on. If we do not faint and continue in good works, we shall inherit the promises.

reply from: faithman

You continue to be inconsistant. A life time of pain? I thought your little Jesus prayer took care of all that? I am not trying to inflict any more pain. Nor am I down playing the love and forgiveness of Christ. But it is the "life time of pain" testamony that I have seen the most powerful in turning abortion minded away. We had a lady at our clinic that was post abortive, and her words turned many away from the mill. Her main coment were, " they don't tell you what it feels like to kill your own children, I have to live with the fact that I murdered my child for the rest of my life. Please don't make the same mistake." When we injure ourselves, the wound usually leaves a scare even though it is healed. My scares are a good reminder not to do things that made them. I am all for the healing that the Lord Jesus gives us thru His grace and mercy, but my wrong doings have left spiritual scares that remind me to avoid activities that caused them. I can not ignore or forget the children who have died in the clinics , Nor can I ignore the fact that some wounds seem to be healed, but underneath are still full of infection. They must be lanced and cleaned. To "heal over" this issue, with mercy for the guilty, at the expence of justice for the innocent, will rot the cause of womb life from with in. that is unacceptible IMO.
The only thing that counts is what we become in the end:
Ezekiel 18:26 "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."
Ezekiel 18:27-28 "Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices righteousness, he will save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die."
If carolmarie has turned away from sin, and only practices righteousness, she shall live (eternal life).
For the once saved, always saved "Christian", if he turns back to sin, he shall die (eternal death).
See Hebrews 6:4-6 about "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries, he that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses; of how much sorer punishment , supose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace."
We MUST go on to perfection. The bond-servants with faith know that doing what Christ says leads to life. Leaving the vine, doing your own thing, leaves you a dry dead branch meant for the fire. Good fruit comes from obeying Christ, we must abide in his vine.
There are many who claim to be saved. Their deeds show they are hypocrites (mere actors); they have no intention of being Christ's bond-servants or doing only what pleases Him. Neither have they received the Holy Spirit, which is given only to the repentant. They are fooling themselves to think they were repentant when they came before God; they desire to continue their pet behaviors, which clash with what the Light exposes as evil.
If you have started on the Exodus you must move forward. If we have been baptized in the waters of the Red Sea, as ancient Israel was, we have buried and left behind the old way of life. Anyone turning back to Eygpt, that is, becoming entangled in the former bondage to sins, will be destroyed. Salvation comes from having the faith to move ahead and into the promised land. The entire Exodus and Books of Moses are physical parables of our Spiritual exodus. Let us not fall as they did, because of disbelief they became disobedient and died in their sins. May we have the faith to not faint, but continue on. If we do not faint and continue in good works, we shall inherit the promises.
Your post is totaly irrelivant to the thred and in scriptual, out of context error. Please stick to the subject. the subject is what do those who kill owe sociaty, not God.

reply from: faithman

We had a lady at our clinic that was post abortive, and her words turned many away from the mill. Her main coments were, " they don't tell you what it feels like to kill your own children, I have to live with the fact that I murdered my child for the rest of my life. Please don't make the same mistake." When we injure ourselves, the wound usually leaves a scare even though it is healed. My scares are a good reminder not to do things that made them. I am all for the healing that the Lord Jesus gives us thru His grace and mercy, but my wrong doings have left spiritual scares that remind me to avoid activities that caused them. I can not ignore or forget the children who have died in the clinics , Nor can I ignore the fact that some wounds seem to be healed, but underneath are still full of infection. They must be lanced and cleaned. To "heal over" this issue, with mercy for the guilty, at the expence of justice for the innocent, will rot the cause of womb life from with in. that is unacceptible IMO.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

You continue to be inconsistant. A life time of pain? I thought your little Jesus prayer took care of all that? I am not trying to inflict any more pain. Nor am I down playing the love and forgiveness of Christ. But it is the "life time of pain" testamony that I have seen the most powerful in turning abortion minded away. We had a lady at our clinic that was post abortive, and her words turned many away from the mill. Her main coment were, " they don't tell you what it feels like to kill your own children, I have to live with the fact that I murdered my child for the rest of my life. Please don't make the same mistake." When we injure ourselves, the wound usually leaves a scare even though it is healed. My scares are a good reminder not to do things that made them. I am all for the healing that the Lord Jesus gives us thru His grace and mercy, but my wrong doings have left spiritual scares that remind me to avoid activities that caused them. I can not ignore or forget the children who have died in the clinics , Nor can I ignore the fact that some wounds seem to be healed, but underneath are still full of infection. They must be lanced and cleaned. To "heal over" this issue, with mercy for the guilty, at the expence of justice for the innocent, will rot the cause of womb life from with in. that is unacceptible IMO.
The only thing that counts is what we become in the end:
Ezekiel 18:26 "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."
Ezekiel 18:27-28 "Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices righteousness, he will save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die."
If carolmarie has turned away from sin, and only practices righteousness, she shall live (eternal life).
For the once saved, always saved "Christian", if he turns back to sin, he shall die (eternal death).
See Hebrews 6:4-6 about "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries, he that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses; of how much sorer punishment , supose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace."
We MUST go on to perfection. The bond-servants with faith know that doing what Christ says leads to life. Leaving the vine, doing your own thing, leaves you a dry dead branch meant for the fire. Good fruit comes from obeying Christ, we must abide in his vine.
There are many who claim to be saved. Their deeds show they are hypocrites (mere actors); they have no intention of being Christ's bond-servants or doing only what pleases Him. Neither have they received the Holy Spirit, which is given only to the repentant. They are fooling themselves to think they were repentant when they came before God; they desire to continue their pet behaviors, which clash with what the Light exposes as evil.
If you have started on the Exodus you must move forward. If we have been baptized in the waters of the Red Sea, as ancient Israel was, we have buried and left behind the old way of life. Anyone turning back to Eygpt, that is, becoming entangled in the former bondage to sins, will be destroyed. Salvation comes from having the faith to move ahead and into the promised land. The entire Exodus and Books of Moses are physical parables of our Spiritual exodus. Let us not fall as they did, because of disbelief they became disobedient and died in their sins. May we have the faith to not faint, but continue on. If we do not faint and continue in good works, we shall inherit the promises.
Your post is totaly irrelivant to the thred and in scriptual, out of context error. Please stick to the subject. the subject is what do those who kill owe sociaty, not God.
I believe it is relevant. Whomever completely eschews their prior ways, cleans up their act, and goes down a good path should be completely totally pardoned.
In Ezekiel 18 the people complained that God's ways weren't fair because he completely exonerated, pardoned and forgave those who previously acted wicked.
He also condemned and executed those who after years of righteous living committed sin. The people complained, "That's not fair!"
You seem intent on condemning past sinners, such as carolmarie. We should be judged only on who and what we are now. If carolmarie is living righteously now, God has decreed, "She shall live."
The bill owed to society by previous killers should be cancelled. That is what Jesus did on thecross, the list of charges detailing our past transgressions was nailed to the cross.

reply from: sander

I believe you are in error on this point.
The bill owed was to God not to society.
If I've understood you correcty, then all prisons should be emptied.
Romans 13
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I believe you are in error on this point.
The bill owed was to God not to society.
If I've understood you correcty, then all prisons should be emptied.
Romans 13
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience
Yes, sin is the transgression of God's Law. The charges being nailed to the cross are detailed on a bill owed to God.
But I believe the principle is the same for society. If a woman was previously a prostitute, alcoholic, drug user and had a child aborted, society can forgive a person who changes their ways. If that person now advocates against all of those things and has set up groups to argue against such activities; I beieve society should forgive such a person.
Governors give pardons, I believe society can too. But only, and I mean only, where the party completely rejects and works against such previous misbehavior.

reply from: yoda

Did you happen to see the movie "Oh Brother Where Art Thou" by any chance? What you're talking about reminds me of a scene in that movie.
Three escaped convicts came upon an old fashioned baptism at the river, and two of them were overcome with the desire for forgiveness. They went down to the preacher in the water and were baptized. Later, they told the third convict (who was rather disdainful of religion) that "all their sins have been forgiven", so they believed they no longer had any reason to fear the prison staff that was chasing them. He explained to them that "The State of Mississippi was not so forgiving as God", and that they still were in fact escaped convicts who needed to avoid the law. They seemed rather crestfallen and disappointed at that news.
Yes, society can give pardons, but they should not be considered to be "automatic" even when no law is broken.

reply from: carolemarie

When I say a lifetime of pain I am not referring to abortion only. I would avoid all that mess and serve God all my life.
When people offer you healing there are scars. But when God heals you there are no scars. He does a completely perfect job. If you still have pain and sorrow you are not healed.

reply from: carolemarie

To me, that would be a bit over the top...
I tell them about God....because without Him, you might as well have the abortion.
Back before I knew God, I thought having a baby without being married was a terrible thing to do. Abortion was more responsible. And I believed that totally. I though it was irresponsible to have babies and not be married. I would never do that, and of course I didn't.
That was my personal morality. So having morals is pointless unless you have an independant standard that never changes or weakens or can be swayed.
All those women marching into the clinic need the Savior....

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I have several kids clamoring for attention, including two preschoolers, and another on the way. They love their trucks and barbies, as appropriate. I could not even imagine the horror of having killed one of them. A scar like that is not going to heal during this lifetime, despite your claim that God or Jesus will heal you completely. It will take time, it will not be during this lifetime that a person can find full comfort; the guilt will be there.
Jesus is the "Light". He illuminates the "path" so our feet will not slip. He shows us the "Way". Only by being a "bond-servant" can one find the right path. Anyone who does not diligently adhere to Christ's directions/instructions/commandments will make decisions and take actions that lead to death.
To recap, eternal life is only possible by obeying God's commandments. Without serving God, you will make decisions that lead to death. Jesus is the God (I AM), the Lord of King David, who went with Israel in the wilderness and gave the congregation the 10 commandments. Jesus said in Matthew 19:17 "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." The first 4 commandments are summed up: "Love God" and the last 6 "Love your neighbor".
Of course, Satan's Ministers, who transform themselves into angels of light, are diligently preaching against the law. Don't be deceived, only those who love God and neighbor will inherit eternal life, all adversaries and murderers will not inherit eternal life. You MUST go on to perfection. God has commanded that we diligently obey Him and come to full maturity.
How to know you are "saved":
1 John 3:14-15 "We know we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren...Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
You know you are saved by becoming love, not because of a 30 second sinner's prayer. Murderers like Cain will not receive eternal life.

reply from: Faramir

You have no way of knowing that, because you don't know if Cain repented before he died.
We have no way of saying with certainty that any particular person is in hell.

reply from: carolemarie

All I know is that God healed me completely. He is wonderful and nothing is to hard for him! Not even abortion....
No scars here...

reply from: faithman

SSSSOOOO you are not for equal justice under the law? If a bank rober says "thank you Jesus" we have to let um out of prison? And once again you are inconsistant. SSSSSOOOOO no scare of regret despite the fact you say you regret it. Then you say you don't. Next I guess you say you do,then you don't, then you do, then you don't...... No memories of killing your children? just a youthful mistake, right?!! And then the threat that you ex baby killers will make sure that future baby killers will never meet justice for having taken an innocent life. No conflict of interest there at all . NOT!!!!

reply from: 4given

I have also lived through hardship, trial and pain. I have the scars. Even though wounded, the scars will fade, but remain forever. For me, it is about forgiving others completely. That is difficult, but I know God can and will change my heart- give me a new heart. The Blood of Jesus- It washes white as snow. Nothing but His blood!

reply from: carolemarie

SSSSOOOO you are not for equal justice under the law? If a bank rober says "thank you Jesus" we have to let um out of prison? And once again you are inconsistant. SSSSSOOOOO no scare of regret despite the fact you say you regret it. Then you say you don't. Next I guess you say you do,then you don't, then you do, then you don't...... No memories of killing your children? just a youthful mistake, right?!! And then the threat that you ex baby killers will make sure that future baby killers will never meet justice for having taken an innocent life. No conflict of interest there at all . NOT!!!!
Abortion is legal. When it is not legal, those who have them(women) will not go to jail. So the thread questions was what type of punishment. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that 55 million women would be very upset if you wanted to jail women. So that will never ever be law, even if you want it so bad. It isn't a threat, it called using logic....is it conflict of interest, no, it is common sense....So a bank robber isn't in the same position as a non-lawbreaker. He can repent, do his time and walk out a changed man! And that is great
The rest depends on our definition of scars, and you and I probably are talking about two different things. I am talking to not being an emotional wreck, or suicidal or slipping into depressions. I am taking about crying and hating myself. Contstantly having to work to make up for what I had done, feeling like I had to do stuff to make God love me, or at least tolerate me. Feeling like a second class Christian, not as good as the rest ...all that I call scars.
I still regret those decisions because it was sin. But I don't feel that way at all anymore. I still can remember it, but I don't dwell on it. No scars.

reply from: faithman

SSSSOOOO you are not for equal justice under the law? If a bank rober says "thank you Jesus" we have to let um out of prison? And once again you are inconsistant. SSSSSOOOOO no scare of regret despite the fact you say you regret it. Then you say you don't. Next I guess you say you do,then you don't, then you do, then you don't...... No memories of killing your children? just a youthful mistake, right?!! And then the threat that you ex baby killers will make sure that future baby killers will never meet justice for having taken an innocent life. No conflict of interest there at all . NOT!!!!
Abortion is legal. When it is not legal, those who have them(women) will not go to jail. So the thread questions was what type of punishment. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that 55 million women would be very upset if you wanted to jail women. So that will never ever be law, even if you want it so bad. It isn't a threat, it called using logic....is it conflict of interest, no, it is common sense....So a bank robber isn't in the same position as a non-lawbreaker. He can repent, do his time and walk out a changed man! And that is great
The rest depends on our definition of scars, and you and I probably are talking about two different things. I am talking to not being an emotional wreck, or suicidal or slipping into depressions. I am taking about crying and hating myself. Contstantly having to work to make up for what I had done, feeling like I had to do stuff to make God love me, or at least tolerate me. Feeling like a second class Christian, not as good as the rest ...all that I call scars.
I still regret those decisions because it was sin. But I don't feel that way at all anymore. I still can remember it, but I don't dwell on it. No scars.
SSSSOOOOO you admit that ex baby killers will pervert justice for the womb child? very revealing. You could really care less if the preborn are really protected from killer mom's. You care more about their "feelings" than you do about the lives of the truely innocent. Really no big suprise there.

reply from: carolemarie

Jesus came to set captives free, that was His ministry. And when the Son sets you free, you are free.
I have such joy, I feel like dancing all the time, and I want to let everyone know what a great God we have...
I gotta shirt that says "I am the wretch that the song refers to!" Amen to that!
There is no point in a Jesus who can't completely heal. Either He is God or He isn't. God can do what He says He will do. He says He will heal a broken spirit. If he can raise people from the dead, He can heal you without scars.
Satan keeps saying no, you need to suffer, what you did was unforgiveable, look at this video, look at this picture...you are evil... you have gone to far for God to ever love...
It is a lie. I decided to take God at His word

reply from: carolemarie

SSSSOOOO you are not for equal justice under the law? If a bank rober says "thank you Jesus" we have to let um out of prison? And once again you are inconsistant. SSSSSOOOOO no scare of regret despite the fact you say you regret it. Then you say you don't. Next I guess you say you do,then you don't, then you do, then you don't...... No memories of killing your children? just a youthful mistake, right?!! And then the threat that you ex baby killers will make sure that future baby killers will never meet justice for having taken an innocent life. No conflict of interest there at all . NOT!!!!
Abortion is legal. When it is not legal, those who have them(women) will not go to jail. So the thread questions was what type of punishment. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that 55 million women would be very upset if you wanted to jail women. So that will never ever be law, even if you want it so bad. It isn't a threat, it called using logic....is it conflict of interest, no, it is common sense....So a bank robber isn't in the same position as a non-lawbreaker. He can repent, do his time and walk out a changed man! And that is great
The rest depends on our definition of scars, and you and I probably are talking about two different things. I am talking to not being an emotional wreck, or suicidal or slipping into depressions. I am taking about crying and hating myself. Contstantly having to work to make up for what I had done, feeling like I had to do stuff to make God love me, or at least tolerate me. Feeling like a second class Christian, not as good as the rest ...all that I call scars.
I still regret those decisions because it was sin. But I don't feel that way at all anymore. I still can remember it, but I don't dwell on it. No scars.
SSSSOOOOO you admit that ex baby killers will pervert justice for the womb child? very revealing. You could really care less if the preborn are really protected from killer mom's. You care more about their "feelings" than you do about the lives of the truely innocent. Really no big suprise there.
I don't see it as perverting justice. I want abortion to stop. Jailing Dr. and stripping them of medical licences will take care of that.
I want to see all those 55 million women to find Jesus and forgivness. That would make me very very happy.

reply from: faithman

SSSSOOOO you are not for equal justice under the law? If a bank rober says "thank you Jesus" we have to let um out of prison? And once again you are inconsistant. SSSSSOOOOO no scare of regret despite the fact you say you regret it. Then you say you don't. Next I guess you say you do,then you don't, then you do, then you don't...... No memories of killing your children? just a youthful mistake, right?!! And then the threat that you ex baby killers will make sure that future baby killers will never meet justice for having taken an innocent life. No conflict of interest there at all . NOT!!!!
Abortion is legal. When it is not legal, those who have them(women) will not go to jail. So the thread questions was what type of punishment. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that 55 million women would be very upset if you wanted to jail women. So that will never ever be law, even if you want it so bad. It isn't a threat, it called using logic....is it conflict of interest, no, it is common sense....So a bank robber isn't in the same position as a non-lawbreaker. He can repent, do his time and walk out a changed man! And that is great
The rest depends on our definition of scars, and you and I probably are talking about two different things. I am talking to not being an emotional wreck, or suicidal or slipping into depressions. I am taking about crying and hating myself. Contstantly having to work to make up for what I had done, feeling like I had to do stuff to make God love me, or at least tolerate me. Feeling like a second class Christian, not as good as the rest ...all that I call scars.
I still regret those decisions because it was sin. But I don't feel that way at all anymore. I still can remember it, but I don't dwell on it. No scars.
SSSSOOOOO you admit that ex baby killers will pervert justice for the womb child? very revealing. You could really care less if the preborn are really protected from killer mom's. You care more about their "feelings" than you do about the lives of the truely innocent. Really no big suprise there.
I don't see it as perverting justice. I want abortion to stop. Jailing Dr. and stripping them of medical licences will take care of that.
I want to see all those 55 million women to find Jesus and forgivness. That would make me very very happy.
So people can't "find Jesus" in prison? And by the way Jesus ain't lost. He does the finding, not us. And you don't see it as perverting because you look threw baby blood red glasses.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't think any justice is served in putting women in jail.
Stopping the providers will end abortion. Isn't that the goal?

reply from: faithman

The goal is making the womb child equal to the born child. If the mother of a born child payed someone to kill her children, she would go to jail as well as the hit man. Or do you think she should walk because she is a woman?

reply from: carolemarie

Then your goal is different than ours. We want to end abortion.

reply from: faithman

Hey stupid!!!!!!!!! You have absolutely no basis to end abortion if you do not make the pre born equal with the born. That is what got this mess started in the first place. Is killer moms like you who say that children are second in consideration behind their feelings. In that you do agree with planned parenthood, and you have already stated that killing a preborn is not the same as killing a born child.

reply from: carolemarie

The goal of the prolife movement has been to make abortion against the law.
And if I annoy you so much , I highly reccomend the ignore button. Find it use it.

reply from: faithman

But how can we make it illegal if we don't have equal justice for the born, and the preborn? There is no basis to make abortion illegal if we make distictions between the 2 like PP and you. If it is illegal for a killer mom to hire a hit man to kill born children, then, after abortion is illegal, killer mom should go to jail as well with her hired hit man abortionist. Other wise you are saying the womb child is not equal to the born child. Which is it? are womb children 2nd class citizens, or are they equal to the born?

reply from: carolemarie

Abortion use to be against the law. We go back to where we were before it was made legal.
Before it was legal, Dr. were punished and women were not.
Performing abortions will be against the law, along with hiring hit men to kill born people.

reply from: joe

It is murder and should be charged accordingly.
This is for the unborn who have no voice....this is for the unborn who deserve to be loved and protected as God intended.

reply from: faithman

Now we can correct a mistake in history. I was that kind of leniancy that helped make abortion on demand legal. SSSSSOOOOOO I ask again, the mother who hires a hit man to kill her children should be let go? After all according to you it does no good to put women behind bars, now does it?

reply from: yoda

Except that none of the pictures or videos say that. All they say is that abortion is too horrible for words, and that the only way to convey the horrific nature of abortion is to show it graphically.
And they say that to everyone who looks at them, whether before or after they've had an abortion, whether before or after they've changed their minds about abortion.
They don't target their audience, only we can do that.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

You have no way of knowing that, because you don't know if Cain repented before he died.
We have no way of saying with certainty that any particular person is in hell.
Jude 11 specifically mentions three people by name; Cain, Balaam and Korah. Jude 13 calls such people "wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."
Hell is an Old English word for a "hole in the ground, grave or pit". Hell is a burial spot. Even Jesus went to hell when he died.
Death is the abscense of life. Death is described as utter darkness. The Bible says a person's thoughts stop in the day that they die. No one goes to a Dante's inferno type of hell to suffer consciously forever. You don't exist when you are dead!
The inheritance of the meek is the earth. No one is going to "heaven" to live. After the resurrection, the Bible says we shall be kings and Priests on the earth. The dead are symbolized as being asleep in the dust now. The dead are dead, they are not alive.
I should point out that our spirit returns to God at death. Just as software does not work without hardware, our mind/spirit does not work without the hardware of a body. You can not see, hear, touch, taste or even think without a body.
The Bible says the creation is in decay now (2nd law of thermodynamics), but we shall liberate the creation from bondage to decay. We shall rule the Universe. The author of Space Odessy 2001 died recently. He said that he believed mankind would one day control the destiny of stars. Of course, he was right; it's in our job description.

reply from: sander

Godslaw, where do these scriptures fit into your theology?
Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Matthew 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Luke 16
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

reply from: Faramir

You have no way of knowing that, because you don't know if Cain repented before he died.
We have no way of saying with certainty that any particular person is in hell.
Jude 11 specifically mentions three people by name; Cain, Balaam and Korah. Jude 13 calls such people "wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."
Hell is an Old English word for a "hole in the ground, grave or pit". Hell is a burial spot. Even Jesus went to hell when he died.
Death is the abscense of life. Death is described as utter darkness. The Bible says a person's thoughts stop in the day that they die. No one goes to a Dante's inferno type of hell to suffer consciously forever. You don't exist when you are dead!
The inheritance of the meek is the earth. No one is going to "heaven" to live. After the resurrection, the Bible says we shall be kings and Priests on the earth. The dead are symbolized as being asleep in the dust now. The dead are dead, they are not alive.
I should point out that our spirit returns to God at death. Just as software does not work without hardware, our mind/spirit does not work without the hardware of a body. You can not see, hear, touch, taste or even think without a body.
The Bible says the creation is in decay now (2nd law of thermodynamics), but we shall liberate the creation from bondage to decay. We shall rule the Universe. The author of Space Odessy 2001 died recently. He said that he believed mankind would one day control the destiny of stars. Of course, he was right; it's in our job description.
I'm sure you're sincere in your beliefs, but I think you are in serious error about this matter. Sander has quoted scriptures contrary to this, and there are tons of others that would be in conflict with your conclusions, which are drawn from passages taken out of context. Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I've considered the verses. It should be pointed out that the information is not complete. Many image Abraham is standing in "heaven" rather than on the earth when the angels carry the beggar to him. Instead of viewing the Gehenna fires of hell as the trash disposal area in the Valley of Gehenna near Jerusalem where dead bodies were burnt, one has a vision of a Dante's Hell. I agree the parable gives the impression that one is conscious after death, although, I believe it is part of the parable.
Farimir asked if I was Jehovah Witness. I am independent but have congregated with the United Church of God www.ucg.org. I later learned Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses do have a lot of beliefs similiar to mine. I grew up Catholic and was totally lost in space with those guys; they seem to not know what is going on. After High School I had to look for answers elsewhere; I sure wasn't getting any from the Catholic Church. They have a bunch of ceremonies they repeat over and over; no education. My two brothers were alter boys. I'm sure that did not teach them anything they needed to know to improve their lives.

reply from: faithman

I've considered the verses. It should be pointed out that the information is not complete. Many image Abraham is standing in "heaven" rather than on the earth when the angels carry the beggar to him. Instead of viewing the Gehenna fires of hell as the trash disposal area in the Valley of Gehenna near Jerusalem where dead bodies were burnt, one has a vision of a Dante's Hell. I agree the parable gives the impression that one is conscious after death, although, I believe it is part of the parable.
Farimir asked if I was Jehovah Witness. I am independent but have congregated with the United Church of God www.ucg.org. I later learned Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses do have a lot of beliefs similiar to mine. I grew up Catholic and was totally lost in space with those guys; they seem to not know what is going on. After High School I had to look for answers elsewhere; I sure wasn't getting any from the Catholic Church. They have a bunch of ceremonies they repeat over and over; no education. My two brothers were alter boys. I'm sure that did not teach them anything they needed to know to improve their lives.
Very interesting observations. The church of god, jehovah witness, and branch davidians, all have their roots in 7thDAist. I find your catholic experiance strange, as they are usually very strong in education. Of course the church has change drasticly after V2. What are your views on the trinity, the diety of Christ, and salvation by grace thru faith? What bible do you use? Do you believe the word to be inarrant[please ignore my bad spelling]?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I've considered the verses. It should be pointed out that the information is not complete. Many image Abraham is standing in "heaven" rather than on the earth when the angels carry the beggar to him. Instead of viewing the Gehenna fires of hell as the trash disposal area in the Valley of Gehenna near Jerusalem where dead bodies were burnt, one has a vision of a Dante's Hell. I agree the parable gives the impression that one is conscious after death, although, I believe it is part of the parable.
Farimir asked if I was Jehovah Witness. I am independent but have congregated with the United Church of God www.ucg.org. I later learned Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses do have a lot of beliefs similiar to mine. I grew up Catholic and was totally lost in space with those guys; they seem to not know what is going on. After High School I had to look for answers elsewhere; I sure wasn't getting any from the Catholic Church. They have a bunch of ceremonies they repeat over and over; no education. My two brothers were alter boys. I'm sure that did not teach them anything they needed to know to improve their lives.
Very interesting observations. The church of god, jehovah witness, and branch davidians, all have their roots in 7thDAist. I find your catholic experiance strange, as they are usually very strong in education. Of course the church has change drasticly after V2. What are your views on the trinity, the diety of Christ, and salvation by grace thru faith? What bible do you use? Do you believe the word to be inarrant[please ignore my bad spelling]?
I am a little surprised that you understand the Branch Davidians have many of the same beliefs that I do. They came out of the same tradition. However, David Koresh was a child pedophile. Also, unlike me, he believed in acting against the US Government and David committed atrocities. In the end, he was wrong, and lawless. His attitude towards government seems similiar to yours; or are you just an investigator of hard right terrorist organizations?
I don't believe in a "trinity". Grace and faith does not give us a green light to break the law. Jesus was the first of the firstfruits of harvest. He is the first of many sons. There are Church of God groups that do not believe Jesus existed before his birth; and we are to walk as he did. I believe that Jesus is the Word, the I AM, that He is the only God that has worked with mankind; from being King David's Lord, to giving Israel the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai, etc. No one has heard or seen the Father at any time, Jesus has declared him. When it is written, "Let Us create man after our image, after Our likeness"; I believe it is Jesus who executed God's command. Currently, there are two Gods; the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. God is one in that they have a common mind, goal, objective. God is Love. The Father and Jesus are seperate entities; they are not somehow fused together with a third entity called "The Holy Spirit" into one triune God. We are commanded to be one with God also. This comes from becoming love. Joining a family with common / shared values.
Jesus said it is written, "I have said you are gods, and all of you are children of the Holy One." Let us be one, as They are one. Let us not be off and about after our own business.

reply from: faithman

the branch davidians are a sect of 7thDAist, which is where JW's, and WWCOG gets alot of their foundational teaching. Some I agree with, some I don't. The BD's still own the compound, and have built a church there. dispite the fact I strongly disagree with much that went on there, the government handleing of it was completely wrong. Koresh had a federal gun liciences, and all of his weapons were legal. If they wanted to get him as a pedofile, then it should have gone thru the local sherifs office, not the ATF. Koresh could have been picked up at any time out on the roads, as he was an advid jogger, on the wide open county roads in the compound location. the compound was also an open camp, and if the government wanted to end this peaceful, they could have sent many agents into the compound under cover. But this was not about the davidians at all. This was about Jannet Reno making an example out of them, and using that situation to strip religious freedom from americans. I do not believe the way you do, but I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you to fight for your right to your beliefs. The Clintons tried to use that situation to divide americans on religious freedom issues. We may be divided in beliefs, but let us never be divided on our right to believe [or not to believe at all]. But on the spiritual side of your post, the Holy Spirit is God as well, and it is unforgivable to blaspheme Him. To deny His existanse seems to come very close to that.

reply from: joe

Which verse are you referencing in which Jesus declares us God?
Two Gods?? This doctrine is not in accordance to the teaching of Jesus Christ.

reply from: Banned Member

Does that mean that you were repentant for the sins? even the ones you hadn't comitted yet?
I am afraid that formula does not work in the criminal justice system. And do remember that not all who have abortions are with Christ, or ever will be.
Whether a person knows that abortion is wrong, or cares that abortion is wrong is immaterial. They will know when they answer to the law, and if they did know, they will be punished for breaking the law and have time to reconsider their beliefs.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Which verse are you referencing in which Jesus declares us God?
Two Gods?? This doctrine is not in accordance to the teaching of Jesus Christ.
When the Jews were about to stone Jesus for claiming he was the Son of God, Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 (John 10:34); "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?'"

reply from: joe

Which verse are you referencing in which Jesus declares us God?
Two Gods?? This doctrine is not in accordance to the teaching of Jesus Christ.
When the Jews were about to stone Jesus for claiming he was the Son of God, Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 (John 10:34); "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?'"
Judges were also called Gods in the Old Testament.
The context of the Psalm 82 was earthly judgment among men.
On what basis do you use this verse to create such a theology. This theology would go against the many teachings of Christ and of the Old Testament.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Which verse are you referencing in which Jesus declares us God?
Two Gods?? This doctrine is not in accordance to the teaching of Jesus Christ.
When the Jews were about to stone Jesus for claiming he was the Son of God, Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 (John 10:34); "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?'"
Judges were also called Gods in the Old Testament.
The context of the Psalm 82 was earthly judgment among men.
On what basis do you use this verse to create such a theology. This theology would go against the many teachings of Christ and of the Old Testament.
The context was Jesus claiming to be the Son of God. He grabbed the verse, "You are gods" when he was in danger of being stoned for claiming he was the son of God. In Acts, Paul says of man in relation to God, "We are his offspring." The Bible says we are God's offspring, he is our Father, and we are his sons. He commands that we be like him. He says, "Be holy, for I am holy." The goal is to come to perfection. God is Love. If we become Love, then we are the children of God. David asked, "What is man, that you are mindful of him?" The Bible says that for a time we are a little lower than the angels, but ultimately, we shall inherit all things and even judge angels. Are we to be God's pets? The equivalent of a puppy or kitten? No, we are to become gods, even sharing rulership with Jesus Christ. Man's potential is unlimited. We are to be like God, not by taking our own course as Adam and Eve thought when deceived by Satan; but by following Christ's example and having the Holy Spirit write God's Law on our hearts and minds so that we do them. The Law is Love. You shall love, otherwise, you are nothing.

reply from: faithman

UUUHHH guys? the womb child? remember them?

reply from: joe

Your theology in not compatible with the teachings of Christ. We are sons of God but to claim it exalts us to become Gods in the future is not supported by Jesus.
In either case whenever theology contradicts the teaching of Christ it must be questioned. Theology in itself is really of no importance, the truth that was given to us is. One truth that is the foundation of our beliefs as Christians is that we have and always will have one God.

reply from: joe

Agreed. Back to defending the unborn...we will never forget them.

reply from: sander

Does that mean that you were repentant for the sins? even the ones you hadn't comitted yet?
I am afraid that formula does not work in the criminal justice system. And do remember that not all who have abortions are with Christ, or ever will be.
Whether a person knows that abortion is wrong, or cares that abortion is wrong is immaterial. They will know when they answer to the law, and if they did know, they will be punished for breaking the law and have time to reconsider their beliefs.
Excellent, Augustine!
I think some Christians, (maybe they're immature in Christ?) have over-looked or haven't learned that God gave us earthly authorities that we need answer.
Romans 13:5
Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Sorry Faithman. My whole concentration is on life; I am Pro-Life all around. Life is an inconceivably wondrous thing. Protecting and nurturing life, whether in the womb or as an adult, is the main focus of attention. Jesus came so that we may have life more abundantly. I tend to promote his Ways which if we follow leads to abundant life.

reply from: carolemarie

Does that mean that you were repentant for the sins? even the ones you hadn't comitted yet?
I am afraid that formula does not work in the criminal justice system. And do remember that not all who have abortions are with Christ, or ever will be.
Whether a person knows that abortion is wrong, or cares that abortion is wrong is immaterial. They will know when they answer to the law, and if they did know, they will be punished for breaking the law and have time to reconsider their beliefs.
Excellent, Augustine!
I think some Christians, (maybe they're immature in Christ?) have over-looked or haven't learned that God gave us earthly authorities that we need answer.
Romans 13:5
Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
The authorities in our land call abortion legal. You don't seem to be willing to submit to them on that.
Our laws are inconsistant because they are based on the whims of people. There is no standard. The same fetus that can be killed at an abortion clinic can inherit property. If that same baby is killed in Texas (pregnant mom killed) the killer is charged with 2 counts of murder.
And the man who wrote Romans wrote it from a prison cell!

reply from: Faramir

A case could be made we can resist an unjust law.
But what if the law becomes that abortion is illegal and there is no punishment for the woman? Do we submit to that? Would that be God speaking to us through the law?

reply from: sander

Carol your argument is a fallacy. Legal abortion doesn't DEMAND I submit to one.
We live in a represenative republic, so laws do differ from state to state, what's your point?
And Paul wrote much of his letters from prison, submitting to the authorities. Demonstrating that what the enemy meant for evil God used for our good.

reply from: faithman

When you have a personal agenda, you will pervert anything to defend it.

reply from: yoda

I think that's a good question. If a woman become a repeat offender and has multiple illegal "do-them-yourself" RU486 abortions, do we just sit on our hands and look dejectedly at the floor? How do we protect future children of hers from her?

reply from: Faramir

I think that's a good question. If a woman become a repeat offender and has multiple illegal "do-them-yourself" RU486 abortions, do we just sit on our hands and look dejectedly at the floor? How do we protect future children of hers from her?
I think we would have to do something about a repeat offender.
That would mean we would have to know she's a repeat offender, so even those who are not punished for their first abortion should have something go on their record.

reply from: 4given

I think that's a good question. If a woman become a repeat offender and has multiple illegal "do-them-yourself" RU486 abortions, do we just sit on our hands and look dejectedly at the floor? How do we protect future children of hers from her?
Sterilization

reply from: Faramir

I think that's a good question. If a woman become a repeat offender and has multiple illegal "do-them-yourself" RU486 abortions, do we just sit on our hands and look dejectedly at the floor? How do we protect future children of hers from her?
Sterilization
You won't get the cooperatio of the Catholics on that one.

reply from: 4given

I understand that. I personally feel sterilization is against God- but so is murder. What do you feel should be the sentence for a repeat offender when abortion is made illegal?

reply from: Faramir

I understand that. I personally feel sterilization is against God- but so is murder. What do you feel should be the sentence for a repeat offender when abortion is made illegal?
I can only guess. I haven't given punishiment regarding abortion much thought until recently.
I would think that a repeat offender could be jailed.

reply from: faithman

If one is in jail after the first one, there is far less chance of a repeat. But thats just me.....

reply from: carolemarie

I think that's a good question. If a woman become a repeat offender and has multiple illegal "do-them-yourself" RU486 abortions, do we just sit on our hands and look dejectedly at the floor? How do we protect future children of hers from her?
If a woman had multiple RU486 abortions you wouldn't know about it.

reply from: faithman

I think that's a good question. If a woman become a repeat offender and has multiple illegal "do-them-yourself" RU486 abortions, do we just sit on our hands and look dejectedly at the floor? How do we protect future children of hers from her?
If a woman had multiple RU486 abortions you wouldn't know about it.
People get away with murder all the time, but it still is a crime. beside they keep doing that stuff, and they will carry out their own death sentance. Problem solved.

reply from: carolemarie

Okay, I admit I was wrong in the above argument. I liked the way you phrased the end, very good point.

reply from: carolemarie

A case could be made we can resist an unjust law.
But what if the law becomes that abortion is illegal and there is no punishment for the woman? Do we submit to that? Would that be God speaking to us through the law?
What could you do to oppose it?
In America we always have the right to petition our legislator for redress of wrongs. So you could write a bill mandating jail time or execution and try to find a legislator who would introduce it and others who would sign on to it and vote for it. Your state could excute mothers who abort and other states could merely jail them, some could force themto watch the baby die, some could proscute the Dr.
But I think we will all be too busy trying to stop abortion supporters from getting a bill through making abortion legal again. And if we are trying to punish women, they will suceed.

reply from: sander

Okay, I admit I was wrong in the above argument. I liked the way you phrased the end, very good point.
Thank you, Carol.
The old saying is true, it takes a big person to admit when they're wrong and I admire you for saying so.

reply from: sander

I think we can walk and chew gum...we can do both at the same time.
We're not trying to punish women, the law clearly states that if you murder a person you should be punished. So if the baby in the womb gains "personhood", the law would punish the woman along with the abortionist.
Again, Romans 13 gives express permission from God for authorities/laws to "punish".

reply from: faithman

I think we can walk and chew gum...we can do both at the same time.
We're not trying to punish women, the law clearly states that if you murder a person you should be punished. So if the baby in the womb gains "personhood", the law would punish the woman along with the abortionist.
Again, Romans 13 gives express permission from God for authorities/laws to "punish".
EXACTLY!!! We don't have to make any new Laws if womb children gain personhood by passage of the Life At Conception Act. All laws pertaining to PERSONS would apply. It seems CM is the one who would not have abortion made illegal by this most simple, direct, and timely way. It would still come down to a jury, and case by case, mommy dearest could still posibly get a walk. But the child would have constitutional rights in all 50 states, and all places under US jurisdiction. It could take a few weeks to get it done. If pro-life would focus on these facts, we could have ended this by now. But too many people on both sides are making too big of money to let that happen. Only a borty or someone with personal agendas would stand in the way of letting that happen. And if you be one of them, brace yourself to get run over by true pro-lifers who could care less about debates, organizations, or backward collar wearing sanhidrians that would rather pay to sell out lifers, than use their money to stop the slaughter. If you are not totally for them [the womb child] you are against them. I have no other agenda but what is right for the womb child. I fight for them alone, and if you get in the way of that, I most assuredly consider you theirs, and mine, enemy. If you stand for personhood, then in this issue, we are fellow soldiers working for the same cause, and I will do everything I can to see that you are successful. The real battle right now is over the mushy middle. We totally win them over with the IAAP cards. If you want to help us win this most important of battles, please PM me a snail mail address, and we will get you armed. We need to K.I.S.S. it. Keep It Simple Soldiers. Only those with personal agendas would do other wise.

reply from: yoda

That's not necessarily true. First off, they could trace the supply of RU486 to see who is buying it. Second, they could check with local doctors and hospitals to see who has been treated for complications. There are a number of ways such abortions could be discovered.
But the point is.... what IF they WERE discovered, then what?

reply from: carolemarie

I think we can walk and chew gum...we can do both at the same time.
We're not trying to punish women, the law clearly states that if you murder a person you should be punished. So if the baby in the womb gains "personhood", the law would punish the woman along with the abortionist.
Again, Romans 13 gives express permission from God for authorities/laws to "punish".
I don't have a problem with having laws and people going to jail in general. I have a problem with trying to send women who obtain abortions to jail, because we will never get abortion outlawed if prolifers insist on that.
I want to see abortion ended, and punishing the Dr. is the way to do that.
God doesn't require you to make the law punish women. You can write it another way. People who kill babies for profit need to go to jail so they will stop doing it. Women and girls despert enough to choose abortion need counseling and help, not jail.

reply from: sander

This site needs an emoticon that has the little guy banging his head on the wall!
So, at least you're not a complete anarchist, you're okay with laws and people going to jail in general, just not women who kill their unborn...yikes.
Yes, we sure do need to punish the doctor too. How unfair though, to just pick one person in the line that kills a child. Don't you believe that God is fair?
The way to end abortion is for the womb child to gain personhood. Don't you believe that the womb child should have the rights and entitlement of personhood?
God requires, (can't believe I'm saying this for the umpteenth time) JUSTICE!
He doesn't give anybody a pass who has contributed to the death of an innocent child who has BEEN CREATED IN HIS IMAGE!
God also requires...hold on, hope this doesn't mess you up any...PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. And yes, again for the umpteenth time...we reap what we sow, God will NOT be mocked.
I'm curious, why do you consistently ignore that scripture?
Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
And why do you ignore the obvious fact that if women didn't go to the abortionist he or she would be out of business?
It is the woman who walks her child into the killing field. God will indeed hold that woman who has not repented 100% accountable and just because there are some here who don't see that as needed, it will NOT negate His justice in the end.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

This site needs an emoticon that has the little guy banging his head on the wall!
So, at least you're not a complete anarchist, you're okay with laws and people going to jail in general, just not women who kill their unborn...yikes.
Yes, we sure do need to punish the doctor too. How unfair though, to just pick one person in the line that kills a child. Don't you believe that God is fair?
The way to end abortion is for the womb child to gain personhood. Don't you believe that the womb child should have the rights and entitlement of personhood?
God requires, (can't believe I'm saying this for the umpteenth time) JUSTICE!
He doesn't give anybody a pass who has contributed to the death of an innocent child who has BEEN CREATED IN HIS IMAGE!
God also requires...hold on, hope this doesn't mess you up any...PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. And yes, again for the umpteenth time...we reap what we sow, God will NOT be mocked.
I'm curious, why do you consistently ignore that scripture?
Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
And why do you ignore the obvious fact that if women didn't go to the abortionist he or she would be out of business?
It is the woman who walks her child into the killing field. God will indeed hold that woman who has not repented 100% accountable and just because there are some here who don't see that as needed, it will NOT negate His justice in the end.
Murderers will be executed. Anyone who has killed their child will die. The only exception is if, through God's patience and mercy, that person becomes a completely different person. Only if a murderer is transformed from a selfish individual who causes harm to others into a loving caring person who serves and helps others is forgiveness possible. God is not mocked, if you are a murderer, you shall reap death. You plant the seeds of death, you harvest a crop of death. Planting corn does not yield wheat in the fall. You harvest based on exactly what you plant. Planting death does not result in a wonderful crop of abundant happy life.

reply from: sander

Right, a repentant woman will find the mercy of God. But, He still requires her to face the consequenses of her actions while here on earth as to the laws of the land.
Women now do not face any kind of earthly punishment because there are no laws prohibiting abortion, sadly.
A woman who robs banks and becomes a Christian will still face jail time even though her relationship with God has been restored.
I don't think your exception works, she will receive God's spiritual mercy, but she'll still face jail time or the death penalty, depending on the sentence.
Tammy Faye...can't remember her last name, became a strong Christian while in jail for murder, she still was executed.

reply from: yoda

You're thinking of Karla Faye Tucker, the pick-axe murderer. The most famous "Tammy Faye" is the deceased former wife of televangelist Jim Bakker.
Yeah, that's the thing about abortion. It takes one life, usually, just like a pick-axe murder does. So what if it was a woman? Isn't the victim just as dead as if it was a man who killed them?
I don't think we will put any voters off if we just stick to our goal, and remove the legal distinction between born and unborn. That way we don't have to pass any new laws, or establish any new penalties for aborting mothers. We don't have to single them out, all we have to do is to remove the protection that the law gives them now, and give that protection to the unborn babies by making them equal to everyone else.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

There is a penalty for breaking the law. Jesus has accepted the penalty for past sins made by repentant individuals. This is no small matter. For those who continue to sin willfully, trampling on the blood of Jesus even after having been set apart for a special purpose, receiving the Holy Spirit, and having the sins previously committed forgiven; if they continue to sin, Hebrews says there will be no more sacrifice for their sins. Those who fall away back into sin will bear the full consequences of their sin; that includes eternal death. It is written, "The soul that sins, it shall die." Therefore, we are all commanded to live lawful lives.

reply from: sander

Oops...I knew there was a "Faye" in there somewhere.
This is what I don't understand about those who think the woman should always get a pass, even if the womb child gets personhood status. I'm truly puzzled.
Agreed. Let's just hope the, ahem...pro-lifers don't fight it tooth and nail so their "sacred cow", the mother, stays above the law.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Oops...I knew there was a "Faye" in there somewhere.
This is what I don't understand about those who think the woman should always get a pass, even if the womb child gets personhood status. I'm truly puzzled.
Agreed. Let's just hope the, ahem...pro-lifers don't fight it tooth and nail so their "sacred cow", the mother, stays above the law.
I am hearing that the mother should be executed for causing the death of the child, just as the paid assassin should be. However, I'd like to see the father held to responsibility. The father who skipped town while his child is killed. The guy that doesn't give a hoot about his child and what the mother is going to do; he needs to be executed if his child is put to death through his neglect. Why so little conversation about dad?

reply from: sander

It's been addressed. I've said that in God's view it's the father that will be held accountable FIRST!
But, for the topic of this thread we're addressing primarily the woman since she has never been held accountable, even when abortion was illegal.
The father should be first in the line of the people who are aiding in the death of the unborn. Daddy, mommy, abortionist, in that order, imo.
Without daddy and mommy the abortionist is out of business.

reply from: 4given

Pro-lifers "sacred cow" is the mother?! I know you are speaking about a specific group- Keep it at that, right?

reply from: yoda

Execution is not the only penalty for capital murder, many get life imprisonment, or a lesser sentence depending on the circumstances.
We already had this conversation. I happen to be a father who cared, and tried to stop an abortion. So I have more sympathy for fathers who oppose abortion than for mothers who go through with them. But in the case of fathers who push for an abortion, they should be on trial right along side the mothers who gave in to their pressure.

reply from: sander

Whoa...good work, Nancy!

reply from: nancyu

For 35 years we've been brainwashed into thinking abrortion is good, that it just removes a blob of cells, etc. Our culture does not call it "legal murder."
Many have grown up (those who survived abortion) in this culture not knowing any better.
It might take another generation before it really sinks in that the life in the womb has a moral value equivalent to the born.
Until that time, as MC3 expressed, it makes the most sense to go after those who are most culpable, the abortion providers. They know what they are doing.
And we have pointed out that you and MC3 are just simply wrong. It took over 100 years to get it thru americas head that slavery was wrong, but they didn't say "well it will take a while, so let um own a few until then". It took a while to get it thru the nazi's head that killing jews was wrong, put we shunned "pragmatism" and said the germans were retroactively guilty, even though it was legal to kill jews before the end of WW2. We didn't "Pragmaticly" allow the death camps to stay in operation, nor did we give the comandants a free walk, we hung them. The abortionist are not more culpable. They would go out of business with out customers. Most women know exactly what they are doing, when they lay down in front of the hired killer, and many times in real life, the deal is cut with the hired killer to get the one who paid them. If justice is to be truely blind, thenit must be the same for the born as it is the pre-born. Otherwise it ain't justice at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can want to see women jailed, but reality is that it will never ever happen. Those of us who have had abortions will never stand for a law like that to be passed, because it is wrong and isn't aimed at stopping abortion, but making sure women are punished. The aim should be to end abortion.
I am a big fan of mercy...I like it alot and I want lots of it over my life, and the bible does say that those who practice mercy will receive it! So I am going to continue to love those who need mercy and grace and pour it out on them.
Eureka!

reply from: galen

I will probably get flac for this, but the punishment for percuring and preforming should be the same. IMHO
that being said... i do not feel that it should be a retroactive law... I think you all know I am not as rabid about that as some.
Remember the quiet place to hash things out guys?
Can this be done now?
If this needs to continue can we take it to the private topics area?

reply from: sander

I don't think there's anyone disagreeing with the idea of a retroactive law.
Nobody wants to do that, at least not that I've seen post here.

reply from: sander

What were you saying?
I thought you said you were against the law being retroactive, at least that was what I was replying to, I probably just messed up the answer.

reply from: galen

oh i thought you were thinking I said others said the law should be retro.
I have not heard that on this board.
I think though, that some of the name calling needs to stop ... yoda had a good idea about a private rant... and I personally think it should be kept there.... they know who they are.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

The punishment for first degree intentional murder can be the death penalty, life in prison, or a long time behind bars; whatever the judges decide.

reply from: carolemarie

For 35 years we've been brainwashed into thinking abrortion is good, that it just removes a blob of cells, etc. Our culture does not call it "legal murder."
Many have grown up (those who survived abortion) in this culture not knowing any better.
It might take another generation before it really sinks in that the life in the womb has a moral value equivalent to the born.
Until that time, as MC3 expressed, it makes the most sense to go after those who are most culpable, the abortion providers. They know what they are doing.
And we have pointed out that you and MC3 are just simply wrong. It took over 100 years to get it thru americas head that slavery was wrong, but they didn't say "well it will take a while, so let um own a few until then". It took a while to get it thru the nazi's head that killing jews was wrong, put we shunned "pragmatism" and said the germans were retroactively guilty, even though it was legal to kill jews before the end of WW2. We didn't "Pragmaticly" allow the death camps to stay in operation, nor did we give the comandants a free walk, we hung them. The abortionist are not more culpable. They would go out of business with out customers. Most women know exactly what they are doing, when they lay down in front of the hired killer, and many times in real life, the deal is cut with the hired killer to get the one who paid them. If justice is to be truely blind, thenit must be the same for the born as it is the pre-born. Otherwise it ain't justice at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can want to see women jailed, but reality is that it will never ever happen. Those of us who have had abortions will never stand for a law like that to be passed, because it is wrong and isn't aimed at stopping abortion, but making sure women are punished. The aim should be to end abortion.
I am a big fan of mercy...I like it alot and I want lots of it over my life, and the bible does say that those who practice mercy will receive it! So I am going to continue to love those who need mercy and grace and pour it out on them.
Eureka!
I stand by this post. The aim of this is to punish women and it is wrong.
You will never ever end abortion if you are going to go after women. You will end it by taking the profit out and going after those who perform them.
I can't imagine women who had abortions being able to allow this to happen without feeling deeply conflicted. To make sure they can live in denial they will vote this down. And all those people who have a sister or a friend who they LOVE who had an abortion will feel like they are calling them a murderer and they will not vote for it either. IT wiill not pass.
Do you really not know that the country is almost divided in half over abortion? Why would you want to hand the otherside ammo to defeat your bill?
If your aim is outlawing abortion, you can do that without going after the women.
If your main desire is to make sure they are punished, then I guess you have your bill....
Women who are seeking abortions need love and mercy and help, not judgement and condemnation.

reply from: faithman

For 35 years we've been brainwashed into thinking abrortion is good, that it just removes a blob of cells, etc. Our culture does not call it "legal murder."
Many have grown up (those who survived abortion) in this culture not knowing any better.
It might take another generation before it really sinks in that the life in the womb has a moral value equivalent to the born.
Until that time, as MC3 expressed, it makes the most sense to go after those who are most culpable, the abortion providers. They know what they are doing.
And we have pointed out that you and MC3 are just simply wrong. It took over 100 years to get it thru americas head that slavery was wrong, but they didn't say "well it will take a while, so let um own a few until then". It took a while to get it thru the nazi's head that killing jews was wrong, put we shunned "pragmatism" and said the germans were retroactively guilty, even though it was legal to kill jews before the end of WW2. We didn't "Pragmaticly" allow the death camps to stay in operation, nor did we give the comandants a free walk, we hung them. The abortionist are not more culpable. They would go out of business with out customers. Most women know exactly what they are doing, when they lay down in front of the hired killer, and many times in real life, the deal is cut with the hired killer to get the one who paid them. If justice is to be truely blind, thenit must be the same for the born as it is the pre-born. Otherwise it ain't justice at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can want to see women jailed, but reality is that it will never ever happen. Those of us who have had abortions will never stand for a law like that to be passed, because it is wrong and isn't aimed at stopping abortion, but making sure women are punished. The aim should be to end abortion.
I am a big fan of mercy...I like it alot and I want lots of it over my life, and the bible does say that those who practice mercy will receive it! So I am going to continue to love those who need mercy and grace and pour it out on them.
Eureka!
I stand by this post. The aim of this is to punish women and it is wrong.
You will never ever end abortion if you are going to go after women. You will end it by taking the profit out and going after those who perform them.
I can't imagine women who had abortions being able to allow this to happen without feeling deeply conflicted. To make sure they can live in denial they will vote this down. And all those people who have a sister or a friend who they LOVE who had an abortion will feel like they are calling them a murderer and they will not vote for it either. IT wiill not pass.
Do you really not know that the country is almost divided in half over abortion? Why would you want to hand the otherside ammo to defeat your bill?
If your aim is outlawing abortion, you can do that without going after the women.
If your main desire is to make sure they are punished, then I guess you have your bill....
Women who are seeking abortions need love and mercy and help, not judgement and condemnation.
But just like you, they are murderers. And just because you are guilty about getting a free walk does it mean future killers should no matter what past killers say. It is not going after women but equal justice under the law like the constitution says. JUSTICE FOR ALL. It has nothing to do with gender, and has everything to do with the act of murderer and those who do it. Our main desire is to establish personhood for the womb child. That they would be considered equal with the born child. that means that all laws governing the murderer of the born child should be the same for the preborn child. No matter how much post abortive smoke you want to blow over this issue, this is a womb child issue, not a serial killer mom issue.

reply from: sander

Carol,
I'm not sure if you're willfully ignorant or what? But, whatever the case, no one is targeting the woman.
We're concentrating on the child in the womb. We only desire to see the child receive his or her rightful personhood status.
After that is accomplished then let the chips fall where they may.
But, if you're in anyway deliberatly mis-characterizing the desire to see children receive personhood then YOU will be held responsible for their continued deaths.
I hope you're prepared to "stand by" that. It's going to be a heavy load to bare.

reply from: nancyu

For 35 years we've been brainwashed into thinking abrortion is good, that it just removes a blob of cells, etc. Our culture does not call it "legal murder."
Many have grown up (those who survived abortion) in this culture not knowing any better.
It might take another generation before it really sinks in that the life in the womb has a moral value equivalent to the born.
Until that time, as MC3 expressed, it makes the most sense to go after those who are most culpable, the abortion providers. They know what they are doing.
And we have pointed out that you and MC3 are just simply wrong. It took over 100 years to get it thru americas head that slavery was wrong, but they didn't say "well it will take a while, so let um own a few until then". It took a while to get it thru the nazi's head that killing jews was wrong, put we shunned "pragmatism" and said the germans were retroactively guilty, even though it was legal to kill jews before the end of WW2. We didn't "Pragmaticly" allow the death camps to stay in operation, nor did we give the comandants a free walk, we hung them. The abortionist are not more culpable. They would go out of business with out customers. Most women know exactly what they are doing, when they lay down in front of the hired killer, and many times in real life, the deal is cut with the hired killer to get the one who paid them. If justice is to be truely blind, thenit must be the same for the born as it is the pre-born. Otherwise it ain't justice at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can want to see women jailed, but reality is that it will never ever happen. Those of us who have had abortions will never stand for a law like that to be passed, because it is wrong and isn't aimed at stopping abortion, but making sure women are punished. The aim should be to end abortion.
I am a big fan of mercy...I like it alot and I want lots of it over my life, and the bible does say that those who practice mercy will receive it! So I am going to continue to love those who need mercy and grace and pour it out on them.
Eureka!
I stand by this post. The aim of this is to punish women and it is wrong.
You will never ever end abortion if you are going to go after women. You will end it by taking the profit out and going after those who perform them.
I can't imagine women who had abortions being able to allow this to happen without feeling deeply conflicted. To make sure they can live in denial they will vote this down. And all those people who have a sister or a friend who they LOVE who had an abortion will feel like they are calling them a murderer and they will not vote for it either. IT wiill not pass.
Do you really not know that the country is almost divided in half over abortion? Why would you want to hand the otherside ammo to defeat your bill?
If your aim is outlawing abortion, you can do that without going after the women.
If your main desire is to make sure they are punished, then I guess you have your bill....
Women who are seeking abortions need love and mercy and help, not judgement and condemnation.
Some women need love and mercy, some are just plain EVIL!

reply from: teddybearhamster

if a woman is forced or ignorant(like i was a week ago) she is not evil. however, if a woman can honestly go through with an abortion when she has all the facts.........that's just sick.

reply from: nancyu

if a woman is forced or ignorant(like i was a week ago) she is not evil. however, if a woman can honestly go through with an abortion when she has all the facts.........that's just sick.
exactly.

reply from: 4given

That is what it is about. I am not interested in what the courts have to say about those that violate the laws- (once illegal) My efforts at this point are about protecting the innocent child. Reaching the mother with the facts is important, because it will save the baby (both lives potentially).. and that is why I have so much respect for sidewalk counselors- They do and attempt to do just that.. But if one is unwilling to accept the truth and willfully aborts her child with the facts given.. She will face God, and when illegal- let her face whatever penalties go along with violating the law for soliciting murder.. Right now it is about establishing personhood status.. It will always be about the unborn first.

reply from: sander

Exactly.
And I fear further for those who are operating under the delucsion that earthly laws supercede God's law and would even do away with God's justice, for reasons I've not yet been able to understand.
Romans 13 says God gives authorities the right to "punish", are we to then tell God...sorry, we don't agree?

reply from: teddybearhamster

i agree with you. let's get personhood established. that's what's most important.

reply from: faithman

Exactly.
And I fear further for those who are operating under the delucsion that earthly laws supercede God's law and would even do away with God's justice, for reasons I've not yet been able to understand.
Romans 13 says God gives authorities the right to "punish", are we to then tell God...sorry, we don't agree?
Killer carole has vowed to never let equal justice be establised like our constitutional republic says. Notice how she even perverted how our government works, with her condesending little lesson. She mistakenly called us a democracy, when we never have been. Our form of government is a constitutional republic under the rule of law with in the frame work of our founding documents. SSSSSOOOOOO she would perverts that as well to give womb child serial killers a free walk. That totally perverts justice.

reply from: carolemarie

Some women need love and mercy, some are just plain EVIL!
I don't get this...are you saying I am evil or that some women are evil and don't deserve mercy?

reply from: faithman

I am saying your posts are full of evil, and excuses. You are either severly ignorant, or are wilfully telling mistruths. either way most of what you say is evil, and in agreement with the baby killers, which you are by your own admission.

reply from: galen

Carol you can abohor the act... even pass forgiveness onto people eho preform it... but once a law is passed then if you break it there are consequences. Personal and private ones and also judicial ones. If a bill is passed that says its not ok for the doctor bit ok for the woman then it has no purpose.
If we were only dealing with forced abortion procedures then I might be on your side... too many women see abortion as a form of Bc, that IMO is wrong.
People who watch a violent crime take place and do nothing are held accountable. both parents who are in a house when a child is killed are held responsible... even if only one of them commits the act.

reply from: Faramir

I am saying your posts are full of evil, and excuses. You are either severly ignorant, or are wilfully telling mistruths. either way most of what you say is evil, and in agreement with the baby killers, which you are by your own admission.
She is NOT that, because she does not approve of that. If you've stopped masturbating you are no longer a masturbater, no matter if you've done it in the past. If you've stopped fornicating, you are no longer a fornicator, even if you've fornicated in the past.
Carolemarie is not a baby killer, unless you have some knowledge that she is presently killing babies.

reply from: galen

i have to agree.
that name does not apply.
can this type of verbal abuse stop now please. its unbecoming of all.

reply from: cracrat

I see where you're all coming from with respct to wanting to punish those who receive as well as perform abortions. But whilst it may leave a bitter taste in your mouth, wouldn't the help you get from these women in putting the abortionists away be more valuable than victimising/punishing them? If as many women as you say regret having one, surely they will be exactly the people who would be inclined to stand up in court and 'He did ....... to me'. If they know they'll be going down too, surely they'll just keep shtum?

reply from: nancyu

I don't know what is in your heart CarolMarie. Only you and God know that.
No one here is perfect. But I still feel that there is something really huge you are missing. Maybe you can't see it , but it seems more likely that you won't see it. Some women, especially young girls are confused and feel that abortion is the only answer. When they look for help they may find a planned parenthood website or ad in the yellow pages, so they call the number and the are deceived and sold that abortion. (I see how it happens, the same way you deceived me for a moment in your pm) These girls are victims. But those with a conscience see in a very short time what they have done. They are truly remorseful and ashamed of what they did. They may sink in to depression and become suicidal. I know one such woman and I am truly convinced that she is profoundly regretful. And yet, she doesn't ask for mercy. She knows who the true victim was in this crime. It was the child.
This is the woman who gets my respect, and forgiveness. Not the one who says,
"but it wasn't my fault, s/he made me do it!" I know not every woman has this kind of strength and courage to walk through the fiery gates of hell to pay for what they helped to accomplish. This is exactly why there are so many abortions occurring, because there are so many weak and whiny cowards in the world afraid to face any consequences. You can't even stand a little name calling for crying out loud.
We need to be teaching women courage. Not how to avoid consequences, but how to face and deal with them.

reply from: nancyu

Compare this to the drug trade. This is what our brilliant justice system tries to do on a daily basis. We arrest the drug dealer on the street, and make a deal with him to catch the bigger fish. But is the drug dealer on the street more or less guilty than the cartel man? No, they are co conspirators. And neither could survive without the other.

reply from: faithman

Compare this to the drug trade. This is what our brilliant justice system tries to do on a daily basis. We arrest the drug dealer on the street, and make a deal with him to catch the bigger fish. But is the drug dealer on the street more or less guilty than the cartel man? No, they are co conspirators. And neither could survive without the other.
And what this borty fence sitter, and false pro-lifers like killer carole keep doing, is confusing the past with the future. I Have never been against post abortive ministry, or the witness they have at the clinic. But when they use planned parenthood rhetoric, and point blank vow tooth and nail to fight against justice for the womb child, and establishing personhood so they enjoy equal protection under the constitution, then they need to sit down and shut up. They are not a voice for life. Not all post abortive agree with killer carole, nor do they play the simpathy card, nor do they try to manipulate with guilt trip atempts to silence those who truely defend the lives of womb children. False pro-lifers with hidden aggendas like killer carole do us no favors at all.

reply from: faithman

I am saying your posts are full of evil, and excuses. You are either severly ignorant, or are wilfully telling mistruths. either way most of what you say is evil, and in agreement with the baby killers, which you are by your own admission.
She is NOT that, because she does not approve of that. If you've stopped masturbating you are no longer a masturbater, no matter if you've done it in the past. If you've stopped fornicating, you are no longer a fornicator, even if you've fornicated in the past.
Carolemarie is not a baby killer, unless you have some knowledge that she is presently killing babies.
When you have done it in the past, and continue to advocate for them in the future, then the name does fit. She most assuredly agrees with the abortion industry by her own admission that the womb child is second in consideration to killer mom. By word, and by deed, Carole is a baby killer, and a conspirator to fight personhood to make sure future baby killers go free.

reply from: cracrat

Your analogy of the drug trade is extremely valid. Without the testimony of 'smaller fish', the bigger guys would almost always walk free and precious little progress would ever be made. It breaks down a little when you consider any idiot with a boat or plane can smuggle drugs into the country.
To be an abortionist that people would willingly visit, you need at least some medical training and the supply of such people willing to take the risks involved would be finite. With the help and testimony of a relatively small number of women that your heart tells you should be punished, the number of practicing abortionists could, if handled properly, be whittled down fairly quickly.

reply from: faithman

Your analogy of the drug trade is extremely valid. Without the testimony of 'smaller fish', the bigger guys would almost always walk free and precious little progress would ever be made. It breaks down a little when you consider any idiot with a boat or plane can smuggle drugs into the country.
To be an abortionist that people would willingly visit, you need at least some medical training and the supply of such people willing to take the risks involved would be finite. With the help and testimony of a relatively small number of women that your heart tells you should be punished, the number of practicing abortionists could, if handled properly, be whittled down fairly quickly.
And the oposit is true. One abortionist could make the same deal, and many killer moms could be brought to justice. This happens quite often with hit men. The hired killer is given the deal to catch the one who paid them. You could even set up a sting where authorities pretend to be an illegal abortion house, and catch killer scancs before they destroy there children.

reply from: cracrat

Wouldn't that qualify as entrapment or something?

reply from: faithman

Wouldn't that qualify as entrapment or something?
Police do it all the time with drugs and prostitution.

reply from: cracrat

Wouldn't that qualify as entrapment or something?
Police do it all the time with drugs and prostitution.
Really?
Our cops wouldn't get away with such things.

reply from: nancyu

Your analogy of the drug trade is extremely valid. Without the testimony of 'smaller fish', the bigger guys would almost always walk free and precious little progress would ever be made. It breaks down a little when you consider any idiot with a boat or plane can smuggle drugs into the country.
But you completely misunderstood it. They are BOTH equally GUILTY. I DONT agree that this should happen. If we went after the "smaller fish," (do everything possible to discourage individual women from aborting) the "bigger fish" (abortionists) would cease to exist. ( Second of all, the abortionists aren't quite as well hidden as drug dealers are. You can look them up on the internet. They will get theirs, too.) Then true progress will be made.
Did you notice, the drug industry is still going strong?

reply from: cracrat

And you in turn completely misunderstood me.
Yes, the mother and doctor would both be equally guilty of a crime. But if the mother knows she is going to be done for murder she's not too likely to turn up at a police station and hand herself in, is she? If she knows she'll be protected from criminal proceedings, she'd be far more likely to shop the abortionist.
If you make abortion illegal, I suspect the internet advertisements would cease. It would become a 'word-of-mouth' thing, much like the drug trade.
The drug trade is still going strong because you don't need any sort of expertise to smuggle drugs, just the cojones to run the risks. And there are millions of dollars to be made by anyone prepared to take those risks. As soon as one Mr Big is brought down, there are a dozen more vying to take his place.
It is unlikely that doctors would be able to retire at 40 on their illegal abortion incomes, they would more likely see it as an occasional bit of extra pocket money. The skills required to perform the operation are not widely available and there isn't a limitless supply of willing candidates ready to pick up where the last one left off.
The pool of potential drug smugglers is the portion of the population with shady moral standards so each one removed makes little impact. The pool of potential abortionists is orders of magnitude smaller so each one 'lost' is a far more significant blow.

reply from: Faramir

You're playing games and you know it.
You're using that as an excuse to bully her for her past abortions, which you remind her of almost every post you make.
Your beliefs do not give you the right to harrass and be abusive.

reply from: faithman

You're playing games and you know it.
You're using that as an excuse to bully her for her past abortions, which you remind her of almost every post you make.
Your beliefs do not give you the right to harrass and be abusive.
You are greviously in error if you think I am playing. She bullied three to death, and she would make sure that future bullies can do the same. She is 10 times the bully I have ever been.

reply from: nancyu

Okay.
Yup.
Hmm.
Cool. So abortionists may just become an endangered species. That works for me.

reply from: Faramir

You're playing games and you know it.
You're using that as an excuse to bully her for her past abortions, which you remind her of almost every post you make.
Your beliefs do not give you the right to harrass and be abusive.
You are greviously in error if you think I am playing. She bullied three to death, and she would make sure that future bullies can do the same. She is 10 times the bully I have ever been.
You are lying and are a liar.
She is counseling women AGAINST abortion.

reply from: nancyu

Then she should also counsel them to have courage, and face any and all consequences that arise. Including the possibility of abusive name-calling. Is she so helpless that she needs you to keep fighting her battles for her?

reply from: sander

He has absolutley nothing else to say, hardly a word against the proaborts or their views.
If someone wasn't "picking" on his on line wife, he wouldn't even bother to post.
He's been a thorn in the prolife argruments from day one.
It took a month to even figure out if he was pro-llife!

reply from: Teresa18

I wrote this and posted it in another thread a while back, but I think it's fitting to post here.
Let's say Roe vs. Wade is overturned. The Supreme Court overturns it because they consider abortion a matter to be left up to the states. It will not be overturned in this instance because the unborn child is considered a person. It will merely be overturned because The Supreme Court considers abortion a state issue as opposed to a federal issue. The child will not be seen as a person in all states. Some states will add regulations to the procedure or outlaw it, while others will keep it fully legal. In this instance, the law will go back to it's pre-Roe form. Pre-Roe, only the abortion providers were punished for doing abortions. The thing is that the unborn child was not recognized as a person pre-Roe. If the child was recognized as a person pre-Roe, certain states would not have been able to have legalized abortion. They would not have been able to because it would have been unConstitutional. The Constitution proclaims that all persons have the right to life, liberty, and property. Slavery compares to the pre-Roe days because blacks weren't recognized as persons in some states while others recognized them as persons. If Roe vs. Wade is overturned so that the situation goes back to its pre-Roe days, it will once again parallel slavery.
Now, let's say Roe gets overturned because the personhood of the child is recognized. The child will then be Constitutionally protected, as all born persons are. Roe vs. Wade does not have to be overturned in order to end abortion. Justice Blackmun even says in Roe that the case for abortion collapses if the unborn child is proven to be a person. All we have to do in order to recognize this is send through the Life at Conception Act. This act, written by Congressman Duncan Hunter, declares the child a person from conception. It simply requires passage through Congress and a President's signature. It is a durn shame this did not make it through when we had a majority in Congress and President Bush. Another way to declare the personhood of the child is by passing a Human Life Amendment. This, however, is a much longer process.
Once the unborn child is declared a person, the laws that apply to the murder of born people should theoretically apply. There are things we have to consider, though.
There is a very good possibility that people will not want personhood for the unborn child recognized if the woman will be thrown in jail for having an abortion. That is a reason why people will not support the pro-life movement. They think we are anti-woman. In fact, there are many post-abortive women and pro-lifers who will not support throwing women in jail. That's the truth. You don't have to agree. You can say it is illogical and inconsistent, which I agree with to a degree. There is a possibility you can stab yourself in the foot to make a point. Pro-lifers agree and even middle America may agree that the unborn child is a person, but they may not go along with recognizing personhood for the unborn because women will be thrown in jail. Ultimately, our goal is to make abortion illegal. That may require the compromise of not prosecuting women but the abortionists. I believe you will criminalize abortion much more quickly this way. Then, as time moves on, and the country moves past an abortion mentality towards one of life, there may be a point we can adjust the laws.
Regardless of whether the woman is prosecuted or not, I believe it is VERY IMPORTANT to ensure that the money going to Planned Parenthood goes instead to crisis pregnancy centers that can provide assistance with whatever situation the woman is in. This may be healthcare, counseling (perhaps due to spousal abuse), information about adoption, information about government assistance, information about housing, work, and getting on one's feet, baby and childcare items, and information about daycare/nanny services. This assistance will make it unnecessary for a woman to procure an illegal abortion. Obviously there is something wrong if the law recognizes the child as a person and provides assistance and the woman aborts anyway. Not only will be outlawing abortion, but we will also make underground abortion unnecessary.
I'm now going on the premise that the laws that apply to the murder of born people apply. Since each state has its own murder laws, different states will have different penalties. Not to mention the federal government may step in if the abortion is procured over state lines. If the woman aborts, there will be much for the courts to consider. Perhaps a boyfriend/spouse, family member, or friend threatened the woman into having this abortion. The woman's mental state must also be evaluated. She may not be thinking clearly due to a situation in her life (abuse, rape, incest, etc.) or mental illness. The assistance mentioned above will of course have areas of specialization in situations of abuse. On the other hand, she may be fully aware it is a person she is killing and simply disregard it. Just as with drug dealers, though, we need to accept the possibility of immunity to save more lives. For example, if a woman is physically harmed by taking an abortion pill or procuring a surgical abortion, it is unlikely she will come forward for fear of prison. Therefore, the courts could grant her immunity if she will turn in whoever is selling the pills and/or providing surgical abortions. This way, the abortionist will be off the streets and more lives will be saved in the long run. The abortionist should be considered a mass murderer and tossed in prison for life.

reply from: faithman

Your first sentance puts us at odds. It does not take the court to over turn roe, and is a waist of time. The congress has the constitutional authority to establish personhood to the womb child. so the rest of this post is mute as far as I am concerned. It is just palin stupid to advocate anything else other than personhood thru the legislature, and it is a total waiste of time to post overly wordy "what if" drivel. It only steals focus from the womb child, and the quickest way to end the slaughter.

reply from: Teresa18

I do get into personhood if you read the whole thing.

reply from: faithman

Your first sentace short circuts that. Personhood is number one in consideration, not buried in a meaningless pile of what ifs.

reply from: Teresa18

It's not a what if. There is a chance that Roe vs. Wade could be overturned before personhood is established. There are a couple different scenarios if it is overturned. I proceed to talk about how it isn't necessary to overturn it and get into the Life At Conception Act. Read the whole thing. You'll see.

reply from: Faramir

He has absolutley nothing else to say, hardly a word against the proaborts or their views.
If someone wasn't "picking" on his on line wife, he wouldn't even bother to post.
He's been a thorn in the prolife argruments from day one.
It took a month to even figure out if he was pro-llife!
Why do you waste so much time bullying another prolifer who is trying to stop abortion?
If that isn't a thorn in the side of the prolife movement, I don't know what is.

reply from: nancyu

Here you go Faramir, you will be forever at CarolMarie's side, defending her from the evil name-callers. As soon as personhood is established, I will happily join you in your fight against verbal abuse.

reply from: yoda

Many times investigators get better cooperation out of defendants when they are able to strike a plea bargain with them in exchange for their cooperation. If there is no possibility of jail time for a woman who has had an illegal abortion, then she has no motive to cooperate. So giving them a pass would be counterproductive for law enforcement, IMO.

reply from: yoda

I think the example of South Dakota is a good one here. They tried at first to get a law against abortion without any rape or incest exceptions, and after a long and bitter struggle against the "dark side", they lost a close referendum.
Now, they are coming back with a new law that contains those exceptions, because their exit polls told them that such a law would pass.
But the important point there is that they did not throw up their hands before the first referendum and declare defeat. They went ahead and tried to get a full fledged abortion ban, and they fought hard for it. Now that they have counted the votes, they are coming back with a less protective ban.
We never really know what will pass and what will fail until we count the votes. And if we give up before we try to protect ALL babies, we may never have a real ban on abortion. We can always try again later with a partial ban If the total ban fails. But let's try the total ban first.

reply from: Teresa18

I definitely support passing personhood laws to protect all unborn children. I am willing to compromise in not punishing the woman to get the law passed more quickly if possible.

reply from: yoda

I understand that. But my point is that we may not be able to predict that with any certainty, so we ought to remain true to our principles at least until we are shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that we can't get full protection for the unborn right away.

reply from: galen

i agree with Yoda on this one... you neveknow which way the wind will blow on any given day. Sometimes things sneak up and bite u in the butt... but sometimes a rose grows in manuer too.

reply from: faithman

I understand that. But my point is that we may not be able to predict that with any certainty, so we ought to remain true to our principles at least until we are shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that we can't get full protection for the unborn right away.
How can we know if we can or can not get personhood right away if we don't try? And how can we dare to think we can get it done when we wont even confront enemies like killer carole in our own ranks? she has commited pro-life treason on a number of occassions, and yet you are SSSSSOOOOOO stupid as to believe she is "pro-life". We don't need that kind of help. This is not just about stopping abortion it is about personhood, and making the womb child equal to all human beings under the constitution. And before you open your stupid mouths. you simply will not stop abortion on demand any other way anyway. Any other tact is a farce, and will assure decades more of dead children. Killer carole is not pro-personhood, and is not pro-life. To deny justice for the innocent is to be their enemies. She has done that on a number of occassions. That is not mean, that is simply the truth.

reply from: faithman

He has absolutley nothing else to say, hardly a word against the proaborts or their views.
If someone wasn't "picking" on his on line wife, he wouldn't even bother to post.
He's been a thorn in the prolife argruments from day one.
It took a month to even figure out if he was pro-llife!
Why do you waste so much time bullying another prolifer who is trying to stop abortion?
If that isn't a thorn in the side of the prolife movement, I don't know what is.
You have proven over and over again you don't know much at all. You are one of the biggest dumb a$$es who ever posted here. you are a total waist of forum space, and a detriment to the cause of womb life.

reply from: faithman

Gosh!!!! Don't you people know that you are in the minority? It is wrong to put murderers in jail!! Particularly if they are womb children and second to the interest of killer moms. We have had our resident killer mom just explain it to us SSSSSOOOO clearly. Abortiion is not murder, and killing three is not making one a serial killer. You people just need to catch the death scanc flue and get over yourselves. Cough sniffle wheeze.

reply from: nancyu

"I stand by this post. The aim of this is to punish women and it is wrong.
You will never ever end abortion if you are going to go after women. You will end it by taking the profit out and going after those who perform them.
I can't imagine women who had abortions being able to allow this to happen without feeling deeply conflicted. To make sure they can live in denial they will vote this down. And all those people who have a sister or a friend who they LOVE who had an abortion will feel like they are calling them a murderer and they will not vote for it either. IT wiill not pass.
Do you really not know that the country is almost divided in half over abortion? Why would you want to hand the otherside ammo to defeat your bill?
If your aim is outlawing abortion, you can do that without going after the women.
If your main desire is to make sure they are punished, then I guess you have your bill....
Women who are seeking abortions need love and mercy and help, not judgement and condemnation."
How about a little mercy for the unborn? You seem to have left them out of this rant.

reply from: faithman

For 35 years we've been brainwashed into thinking abrortion is good, that it just removes a blob of cells, etc. Our culture does not call it "legal murder."
Many have grown up (those who survived abortion) in this culture not knowing any better.
It might take another generation before it really sinks in that the life in the womb has a moral value equivalent to the born.
Until that time, as MC3 expressed, it makes the most sense to go after those who are most culpable, the abortion providers. They know what they are doing.
And we have pointed out that you and MC3 are just simply wrong. It took over 100 years to get it thru americas head that slavery was wrong, but they didn't say "well it will take a while, so let um own a few until then". It took a while to get it thru the nazi's head that killing jews was wrong, put we shunned "pragmatism" and said the germans were retroactively guilty, even though it was legal to kill jews before the end of WW2. We didn't "Pragmaticly" allow the death camps to stay in operation, nor did we give the comandants a free walk, we hung them. The abortionist are not more culpable. They would go out of business with out customers. Most women know exactly what they are doing, when they lay down in front of the hired killer, and many times in real life, the deal is cut with the hired killer to get the one who paid them. If justice is to be truely blind, thenit must be the same for the born as it is the pre-born. Otherwise it ain't justice at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can want to see women jailed, but reality is that it will never ever happen. Those of us who have had abortions will never stand for a law like that to be passed, because it is wrong and isn't aimed at stopping abortion, but making sure women are punished. The aim should be to end abortion.
I am a big fan of mercy...I like it alot and I want lots of it over my life, and the bible does say that those who practice mercy will receive it! So I am going to continue to love those who need mercy and grace and pour it out on them.
Eureka!
I stand by this post. The aim of this is to punish women and it is wrong.
You will never ever end abortion if you are going to go after women. You will end it by taking the profit out and going after those who perform them.
I can't imagine women who had abortions being able to allow this to happen without feeling deeply conflicted. To make sure they can live in denial they will vote this down. And all those people who have a sister or a friend who they LOVE who had an abortion will feel like they are calling them a murderer and they will not vote for it either. IT wiill not pass.
Do you really not know that the country is almost divided in half over abortion? Why would you want to hand the otherside ammo to defeat your bill?
If your aim is outlawing abortion, you can do that without going after the women.
If your main desire is to make sure they are punished, then I guess you have your bill....
Women who are seeking abortions need love and mercy and help, not judgement and condemnation.
How about mercy for the unborn?
CM could careless about the womb child. Her actions, killing 3, and her words, agreeing with the abortion industry that the womb child is not equal to the born child, is solid evidence that her hidden agendas are more important to her that actually standing for pre-born life. she is not pro-life, and if one can not see that, they are self deluded.

reply from: nancyu

There seems to be alot of that going around today.
(And they are asking what got into me!)

reply from: Faramir

Her thinking is pretty much in line with that killer scanc Fr. Pavone, who has more compassion in his ear lobe than a couple of you do in your entire bodies, and who does MUCH to save babies.
Anyone who uses his prolife position to bully another is exploiting the unborn to serve his own ego, and that's disgusting.

reply from: nancyu

You are the lowest of the low Faramir. I think people can read your posts for themselves and see where you stand, and read mine and see where I stand. Most people are smarter than you give them credit for.

reply from: faithman

Do you agree with CM that the abortion industry is right that the womb child is not equal to the born child? Do agree with CM that abortion is not murder? Will you join her in her avowed fight against personhood [not just disagreement with] because personhood would establish equality with the born, and all the same laws that aply to killer moms of the born child, would aply to the killer moms of the preborn child? Do you agree with her double standard that mothers who kill their born children go to jail, while killer moms of womb children get a free walk?

reply from: Faramir

I think you must be from some parallel universe, or possibly from Bizarro World.

reply from: faithman

I think you must be from some parallel universe, or possibly from Bizarro World.
Do you agree with CM that the abortion industry is right that the womb child is not equal to the born child? Do agree with CM that abortion is not murder? Will you join her in her avowed fight against personhood [not just disagreement with] because personhood would establish equality with the born, and all the same laws that aply to killer moms of the born child, would aply to the killer moms of the preborn child? Do you agree with her double standard that mothers who kill their born children go to jail, while killer moms of womb children get a free walk?

reply from: Faramir

I don't agree to answer your loaded questions that mischaracterize her position, and whatever her position is, you have no right to continually harrass and degrade her.

reply from: faithman

Do you agree with CM that the abortion industry is right that the womb child is not equal to the born child? Do agree with CM that abortion is not murder? Will you join her in her avowed fight against personhood [not just disagreement with] because personhood would establish equality with the born, and all the same laws that aply to killer moms of the born child, would aply to the killer moms of the preborn child? Do you agree with her double standard that mothers who kill their born children go to jail, while killer moms of womb children get a free walk?

reply from: nancyu

Ha ha, look at the new sig for Faramir. You are so clever! But lame.

reply from: Skippy

You do realize that the vast majority of what Planned Parenthood does isn't about abortions, right?
I get that you want to turn America into a backwards theocracy that would make the Taliban look positively liberal. But I truly do not understand how you think depriving women of birth control, STD screening, and life-saving pap smears will make the world a better place.

reply from: GratiaPlena

So why don't you address his points about Fr. Pavone? Is he a killer scanc too, whatever that is?

reply from: faithman

So why don't you address his points about Fr. Pavone? Is he a killer scanc too, whatever that is?
Do you agree with CM that the abortion industry is right that the womb child is not equal to the born child? Do agree with CM that abortion is not murder? Will you join her in her avowed fight against personhood [not just disagreement with] because personhood would establish equality with the born, and all the same laws that aply to killer moms of the born child, would aply to the killer moms of the preborn child? Do you agree with her double standard that mothers who kill their born children go to jail, while killer moms of womb children get a free walk?

reply from: GratiaPlena

Do you have any proof Carole actually has said any of these things?

reply from: faithman

Do you have any proof Carole actually has said any of these things?
Just look back thru her posts. These are almost direct quotes......Do you agree with CM that the abortion industry is right that the womb child is not equal to the born child? Do agree with CM that abortion is not murder? Will you join her in her avowed fight against personhood [not just disagreement with] because personhood would establish equality with the born, and all the same laws that aply to killer moms of the born child, would aply to the killer moms of the preborn child? Do you agree with her double standard that mothers who kill their born children go to jail, while killer moms of womb children get a free walk?

reply from: GratiaPlena

I've read many of Carole's posts. You presented these points, now it's up to YOU to find proof to back them up.
Now go email Mark Crutcher and Fr. Frank Pavone telling them what pro-abortion killer death scancs they are.

reply from: faithman

I've read many of Carole's posts. You presented these points, now it's up to YOU to find proof to back them up.
Now go email Mark Crutcher and Fr. Frank Pavone telling them what pro-abortion killer death scancs they are.
just like the rest of them you make me say what I have not. None of those people have killed 3 children. MC made statements on pragmatism, not principal, and when he posted here, I openly disagred with him as many did. Pravone gets no respect from me. He is a hypocrit of the highest degree. His mouths off about being against capital punishment, then offers a $50,000 bounty to sell out anti abortion soldiers to a pro-abort government that could get them the death penalty. I don't have to find proof, the proof is all over these boards. You just choose not to see it.

reply from: GratiaPlena

Carole has repented. She sidewalk counsels and works at CPCs.
So where are all the posts calling him a death scanc?

Fr. Pavone has been actively working against abortion since 1978. That deserves more than a little respect.
Stop dodging and provide some links. Since there are obviously SO many instances of her professing her proabortion stance, you should be able to show me at least one or two threads.

reply from: nancyu

oy, I thought this was a pro life site, where did all the pro life people go faithman?

reply from: GratiaPlena

So if we don't agree that Carole is Satan incarnate we're all proaborts?

reply from: faithman

For 35 years we've been brainwashed into thinking abrortion is good, that it just removes a blob of cells, etc. Our culture does not call it "legal murder."
Many have grown up (those who survived abortion) in this culture not knowing any better.
It might take another generation before it really sinks in that the life in the womb has a moral value equivalent to the born.
Until that time, as MC3 expressed, it makes the most sense to go after those who are most culpable, the abortion providers. They know what they are doing.
And we have pointed out that you and MC3 are just simply wrong. It took over 100 years to get it thru americas head that slavery was wrong, but they didn't say "well it will take a while, so let um own a few until then". It took a while to get it thru the nazi's head that killing jews was wrong, put we shunned "pragmatism" and said the germans were retroactively guilty, even though it was legal to kill jews before the end of WW2. We didn't "Pragmaticly" allow the death camps to stay in operation, nor did we give the comandants a free walk, we hung them. The abortionist are not more culpable. They would go out of business with out customers. Most women know exactly what they are doing, when they lay down in front of the hired killer, and many times in real life, the deal is cut with the hired killer to get the one who paid them. If justice is to be truely blind, thenit must be the same for the born as it is the pre-born. Otherwise it ain't justice at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can want to see women jailed, but reality is that it will never ever happen. Those of us who have had abortions will never stand for a law like that to be passed, because it is wrong and isn't aimed at stopping abortion, but making sure women are punished. The aim should be to end abortion.
I am a big fan of mercy...I like it alot and I want lots of it over my life, and the bible does say that those who practice mercy will receive it! So I am going to continue to love those who need mercy and grace and pour it out on them.
Eureka!

reply from: nancyu

Except for the babies, who are dying as we speak because we don't want women to be punished. No mercy for them.

reply from: GratiaPlena

That doesn't prove anything. It proves she's against jailing women for abortions, but it doesn't prove that she is not pro-life.

reply from: faithman

It proves that what I said about her fighting person hood is true. It is really tireing looking thru all the post, and I think it is on another thred, but she point bank siad she agreed with the abortion industry. As son as I find it I will put it at the end of the thred for all of you willingly lazy who ignored it first go round. it the mean time answer the questions......Do you agree with CM that the abortion industry is right that the womb child is not equal to the born child? Do agree with CM that abortion is not murder? Will you join her in her avowed fight against personhood [not just disagreement with] because personhood would establish equality with the born, and all the same laws that aply to killer moms of the born child, would aply to the killer moms of the preborn child? Do you agree with her double standard that mothers who kill their born children go to jail, while killer moms of womb children get a free walk?

reply from: GratiaPlena

No, she says she wouldn't agree with a law that jails women. She has stated she couldn't be happier if abortion is outlawed.
Why should you have to look through all the posts when her quotes are littered all over the place?
We're lazy because we asked you to provide proof? You made the statements, hon, therefore it's YOUR responsibility to back them up, not ours.

I am firmly against abortion, and I believe women should be prosecuted when abortion is illegal.

reply from: nancyu

What about you GratiaPlena? Are you pro life? It's a misleading term. Just like pro choice is. What do you mean by being pro life? Will YOU grant personhood to the unborn child? Are you against jailing women for abortions after it is outlawed?

reply from: galen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnboUbOGDOM

reply from: GratiaPlena

Yes, I will grant personhood, and yes, I believe putting women in prison after abortions is just. I've been prolife since before I could walk.

reply from: nancyu

I like the video. Thank you.

reply from: galen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLCG5mNlxnI&feature=related

reply from: faithman

Then you disagree with CM.

reply from: faithman

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
Do you really believe that fetuses should be given "personhood" status, and that abortion providers should be executed?
works for me

reply from: galen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viFvXzy3NkE&NR=1

reply from: GratiaPlena

I realize that. But she has a right to post without being jumped on by you and Nancy.

reply from: faithman

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
Do you really believe that fetuses should be given "personhood" status, and that abortion providers should be executed?
works for me
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
So you believe that Bob Lokey and Eric Rudolph should die for killing people? Would you be willing to carry out those executions?
I believe anyone who takes an INNOCENT life should pay for it with theirs.

reply from: yoda

Let me answer that: YES!

reply from: yoda

You seem to be very, very afraid to answer a simple question: are you in favor of personhood for the unborn, or not?

reply from: yoda

And the vast majority of what the KKK does isn't about lynchings either.... so?

reply from: yoda

She has made no secret of her opposition to personhood for the unborn. She has given various reasons for this opposition, including the fear of punishment for aborting mothers, and restrictions on birth control.

reply from: nancyu

I realize that. But she has a right to post without being jumped on by you and Nancy.
How is it that we jumped on her when she wasn't even here? There was me making one post, then let's see about 100 people jumping on me for making it. But me and faithman, two people were called the bullies.

reply from: nancyu

And reported to the moderator.

reply from: yoda

Actually, all of us have a right to post here, but none of us have a right to post without being "jumped on". That's just part of the deal here.....

reply from: Faramir

You seem to be very, very afraid to answer a simple question: are you in favor of personhood for the unborn, or not?
You seem to have extracted this and taken it out of context to give it a different meaning, which does not surprise me any more.
Are you afraid to say that it is wrong for one poster to abuse another by continually calling them a "killer"?
Regardless, I am not afraid to answer a question about personhood, since as a Catholic I believe in personhood from the moment of conception.
What you seem to have purposely distorted regarding my not answering faithman's questions, was that he had been asking loaded questions, which mischaracterized carolemaries position.
Here's an example: Do you still beat your wife, yoda?
How about turning off the cynicism and snide insinutions just once in a while for the sake of novelty?

reply from: Faramir

Actually, all of us have a right to post here, but none of us have a right to post without being "jumped on". That's just part of the deal here.....
You are excusing behavior that goes far beyond "jumping on someone."

reply from: GratiaPlena

Quotes?
She made a post about how nine babies were saved one day from being aborted.
You responded by saying that nine babies wasn't good enough.
You attacked her when she shared good news.
Or are you saying those nine babies' lives are worthless?
Lol.
I think Carole deserves more than a little respect than she has been shown given that she has shown devotion to making abortion illegal.

reply from: nancyu

Faramir, Those who bully others using their prolife beliefs are not only being unjust to their victims, but are shamelessly exploiting the unborn. And you are not even a real person anyway. So I'm off. Night All.
Sweet dreams.

reply from: yoda

Then you disagree with her also.
Do you also disagree with her claim that killing an unborn child is "not the same" as killing a born child?

reply from: yoda

That phrase belongs to GratiaPlena, and I was responding to him/her. If you don't like it, take it up with GP.

reply from: yoda

Now you're calling me a liar? Why, thank you very much.......
You may think whatever you wish, but that doesn't make it a fact. No one has any right to be immune to harsh responses here. If you doubt that, then explain the present situation here.

reply from: GratiaPlena

No, it's that her statements tend to be misinterpreted. If you provide quotes that directly say she opposes personhood for the unborn, I will believe you. I would like to note, however, that Mark also fears prosecution for women who have aborted, and galen also supports birth control, so I don't think those are valid grounds to treat Carole this way.

reply from: galen

Oh i've been persecuted for the BC thing... funny my bishop can argue civilly...but then again he is the connsumate politician.
BTW I posted my 'i'm leaving' post fromm long ago just to show this type of thing is nothing new.

reply from: yoda

Then you will just have to doubt my word. You can ask her when and if she returns, of course.

reply from: Faramir

Then you disagree with her also.
Do you also disagree with her claim that killing an unborn child is "not the same" as killing a born child?
In what context did she say that?
It's not the same, in that an unborn child is different than a born child?
It's not the same in that someone is less culpable if they don't understand fully wht they are doing?
It's not the same in that that one is legal and one is illegal?
What do you mean by "not the same" and what is the context?

reply from: faithman

Then you disagree with her also.
Do you also disagree with her claim that killing an unborn child is "not the same" as killing a born child?
In what context did she say that?
It's not the same, in that an unborn child is different than a born child?
It's not the same in that someone is less culpable if they don't understand fully wht they are doing?
It's not the same in that that one is legal and one is illegal?
What do you mean by "not the same" and what is the context?
What difference does it make idiot? The point is no true prolifer is going to say that the abortion industry has it right that a preborn is not equal to the born in any context. But that doesn't matter to you because you don't defend womb persons anyway. The only ones you defend are their killers.

reply from: galen

There is fiction in the space between
The lines on your page of memories
Write it down but it doesnt mean
Youre not just telling stories
There is fiction in the space between
You and me
There is fiction in the space between
You and reality
You will do and say anything
To make your everyday life
Seem less mundane
There is fiction in the space between
You and me
Theres a science fiction in the space between
You and me
A fabrication of a grand scheme
Where I am the scary monster
I eat the city and as I leave the scene
In my spaceship I am laughing
In your remembrance of your bad dream
Theres no one but you standing
Leave the pity and the blame
For the ones who do not speak
You write the words to get respect and compassion
And for posterity
You write the words and make believe
There is truth in the space between
There is fiction in the space between
You and everybody
Give us all what we need
Give us one more sad sordid story
But in the fiction of the space between
Sometimes a lie is the best thing
Sometimes a lie is the best thing

reply from: yoda

It was a long discussion, and I won't attempt to summarize her words here. You can ask her about it, or try to look it up.
I just know for my part, I will never say or agree with any statement like that. Any physical differences between killing born and unborn kids are so insignificant that they aren't worth mentioning. If someone makes a blanket statement like that, they are inferring that the two things are morally different.


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