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"the hard truth" video

by: faithman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OFadKyxOxQ All I can say is get ready to cry. Let's keep this one at the top of the forum. You might also copy and paste the web address into an email, and send it out to your lists.

reply from: Teresa18

I must warn those with week stomachs or that have children around, this is very gruesome. They do show footages of a live abortion and fetal remains. I stopped it half way through because it was making me nauseous. This is a real eye opener for pro-aborts and those on the fence. To me, it only was confirmation of a tragedy.

reply from: AshMarie88

I've never seen "Hard Truth" but I have seen Harder Truth and that was.... wow. Never will watch those videos again.

reply from: 4given

"Ignorance sustained by denial is crippling this nations response to abortion. When something is so horrifying we can't stand to look at it, perhaps it should not be tolerated."
Gregg Cunningham- Center for Bio-Ethical Reform

reply from: carolemarie

I think it is way too graphic and disgusting. I couldn't watch the whole thing it made me sick.

reply from: faithman

What the heck? Just some pictures of "youthful mistakes". Why should anyone have trouble looking at a "bad choice"? But of course no one can call it murder because it is legal after all. No one can look at this video and see murder victims, now can they?

reply from: Faramir

The argument will be that this film shows late term abortions and that most abortions happen in the first trimester, and that many prochoicers would restrict late term abortions.
Are any first trimester abortions shown in this film?

reply from: faithman

Some of the smaller bits and chunks are first trimester abortion, as well as some of the live womb child shots that start the vedeo.

reply from: 4given

Why don't you watch it for yourself?
Is it first trimester abortions you want?
http://www.lifedynamics.com/DeathCamps/Methods1.cfm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEcg1rwBxTM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mCQ4yNgSbg&feature=related

reply from: yoda

That's the whole point. If it was pleasant and entertaining, it wouldn't do much to change anyone's mind, would it?
Typically, prolifers will force themselves to watch a film like this, just to show that they are willing to sacrifice some comfort to familiarize themselves with the subject, and not asking other to do what they themselves will not do.
Proaborts, on the other hand, will typically refuse to look at them, saying they are "too horrible" to view. And yet, they will totally support laws that permit and even encourage such "too horrible" things to continually happen in this country.
Can you imagine what would happen if they took this attitude towards any other issue in our society? Like, say there was a film about animal cruelty that made you want to vomit? And yet some people who vomited got out in the streets and demonstrated for the right to continue to commit this type of animal cruelty? Why, they'd be locked up in a rubber room!
And yet, our government and our news organizations continue to give shelter and support for this sort of incredibly illogical attitude.

reply from: yoda

Please, every once in a while, present a prolife argument and let the proaborts do their own arguing, okay?
If you're going to adopt a prolife mantle, remind us every once in a while which side you're claiming to be on, okay?

reply from: Faramir

Please, every once in a while, present a prolife argument and let the proaborts do their own arguing, okay?
If you're going to adopt a prolife mantle, remind us every once in a while which side you're claiming to be on, okay?
I just want to know what to say to the prochoicer who will look at this film and say that these are late term abortions and that she does not believe in late term abortions either, and that the vast majority of abortions happen in the first trimester, and that abortions that result in the carnage depicted in this film are rare.
Is showing blood and guts from a thrid-trimester abortion an effective way to dissuade someone from having a first-trimester abortion?
Maybe...if they think that's what one looks like. But if they find out from someone else that this is not representative of a first-trimester abortion, then they will feel that they were tricked.
I haven't "adopted" a "prolife mantle," sir. I have been thoroughly prolife since my son was born 25 years ago, was sympathetic to prolife before that, and my religion confirmed my prolife beliefs when I became a Catholic 14 years ago.
Do you not understand that questioning the effectiveness of an argument is not questioning the cause it is supposed to support?
If you tell me that the reason I should believe in God is because the sky is blue, and if I say that is not sufficient reason to believe, does that mean I'm an atheist?
I have seen photographs of early stage embryos in the womb. They are a very effective testimony. I do not see how anyone could look at an 8 week embryo, for example, and say that this is not a human, or that it's just a blob of stuff that could be sucked out, and no harm is done.
But prochoicers will laugh at this film. They will laugh at it because it is disingenous. They will see it as prolifers saying, "look everybody, this happens 4,000 times a day." Yes, there is the horror of abortion 4,000 times a day, but the vast majority of those abortions do not resemble this.
I am not in any way implying the the less-developed embryo is any less valuable than the very developed fetuses depected in this film.
Abortion should be stopped and we need persuasive means to stop it. But IMHO this film is not persuasive, because it is not representative of the majority of abortions.
When you give the "pro aborts" a reason to be suspicious--so that they think we are exaggerating or using tricks--then that only makes them feel more justified in their position.
Imagine a girl in a very early stage of pregnancy sees this film because you were hoping to discourage her from having an abortion. And then let's say she wants to hear about what Planned Parenthood has to say, and they demonstrate to her that at her stage of pregnancy her embryo does not have a head you can hold in your hand like in your film.
They would have all the ammunition they need to show that prolifers are either trying to trick her or are very ignorant, and that might be enough of a reason for the girl to go ahead with an abortion.

reply from: AshMarie88

It doesn't matter if the film shows 3rd trimester abortions, no matter what stage babies are still killed in the bloody war and even if it's at 8 weeks, it's still as horrible, bloody, and wrong. A baby at 8 weeks and that baby at 30 weeks is still the very same baby! If someone killed us now as compared to when we were newborn, is it more bloody and more violent?
It doesn't matter if the majority of abortions take place before a certain amount of weeks or months. Biology will never change.

reply from: Faramir

Wow, did you ever totally miss my point AshMarie.
Please read my post again.

reply from: AshMarie88

I wasn't saying that, however that goes with the whole "They're not first trimester abortions!!" argument.

reply from: Faramir

To me, a first trimester abortion is just as evil as a third trimester abortion, though a third trimester abortion APPPEARS to be a lot more evil.
There is a mindset that an abotion in the first trimester is only scraping out or removing a "tissue mass." And this would be the vast majority of abortions. And there are a lot of abortion supporters who oppose late-term abortions.
So, what purpose does is serve to show someone who is considering a first trimester abortion a picture of a chopped up eight month fetus? Why not show her instead a first trimester abortion?

reply from: 4given

First Trimester Abortions:
http://www.abortionno.org/

reply from: Faramir

I think this is far more effective, IMHO.
Wow, that's powerful and heartbreaking.

reply from: yoda

What? I thought you were the one with all the "experience" debating online , and you were going to advise us based on your "experience"? Are you suddenly a student here now?
Yes, it is. I have seen people change their position on abortion before my own eyes, just from looking at photos of abortions in all stages. Our whole point in opposing elective abortion is that it is the SAME CREATURE, no matter at what age it is killed. Do you not agree with that? Do you object to only certain abortions, based on the age of the victim?
"Tricked"? You can turn over any rock and find a proabort who will yell "fake" as a reflex action, with no rhyme nor reason, or proof of any kind. So that is what you consider "finding out from someone else"? Taking the word of a proabort at face value, and disregarding the word of a prolifer? And you call yourself a prolifer? Are YOU unreliable and deceitful?
You have on THIS FORUM, "sir". We don't know you from Adam!! Don't you get that this is an anonymous medium, and that we only know you from your posts?
It's a matter of degree. I note that you spend a lot of time trying to tear down prolife arguments, and almost none questioning proabort ones. You seem to be on a mission here to try to discourage us from even trying to protect the unborn...... and by the way, no one has appointed you, or accepts you (as far as I know) as any authority on "effectiveness".
And that's something for us to worry about? Proaborts laugh at recipes for fetal pizza and embryo cookies.... so what is your point?
And you would know this because.... you do abortions? And what obligation do we have to display representations of "typical" abortions, rather than the ones in which the humanity of the victim is clearly represented? Do you really think abortion is less objectionable if the baby is ripped into such small pieces that it can't be recognized at all?
So, why not furnish us with some photos of what you consider the "vast majority of abortions" look like? Do you have any links?
No? Well, you are implying that prolifers are unreliable, lying fakers who can't be trusted to take out the trash.... what a very prochoice thing to imply.
Let me try once again to explain this to you...... for the most part, we don't care what the proaborts think of us..... let them equate us with vampires or bridge trolls, for all we care.... we're here to refute their nasty, bloodthirst baby killing arguments....... so, what are YOU here for?
Why should she bother to go to PP, when she can hear all the negative things about prolifers they would say from you first?
We encourage everyone who comes here to go to the "neutral" embryology sites, and see for themselves. CBR even carries an embryology textbook with them on their tours of college campuses. We are about truth, and we are about using photos to convey that truth. Abortion is just so horrible that words cannot adequately describe it, it takes photos. And we're not going to stop using them, so you might as well give it up.

reply from: Faramir

You totally missed my point Yodavater.
Do you know what the word "obtuse" means?
And you have misrepresented me. I have never said photographs should not be used. They are extremely effective tools.
Thank you, 4given, for the link to that very compelling video of a first trimester abortion. I don't see how anyone contemplating an abortion could look at that and still go through with it.

reply from: yoda

Is that your way of totally dismissing a whole long post and all it's points, just by calling me "obtuse" and picking out one particular point to attack?
My, your tactics do remind me of prochoicer tactics, more and more.
No wonder you're so worried about hurting their feelings.

reply from: faithman

Yoda, you can't make no sence to the thick sculled. Very early abortions are represented in the video, as well as early live shots as well. Why is our resident pro-life genious ingnoring these facts, as they have already been pointed out? Seems to me like it is knit picking for knit picking sake. And by the way, you can "choose" not to watch. I was merely responding to anothers post about abortion videos. I have a copy of this one, and have used it for about 13 or so years, and have seen many become very passionate pro-lifers after seeing what abortion really is. As everyone who has been here long knows I prefere the live imagery, as it takes away all the stupid aurguments represented on this thred. But if you want blood, this video is on of the best. After all these years it still makes me weep. How can we treat a fellow human being in such a mannor?

reply from: Faramir

Let's see...
I have tangled with and disagreed with two prochoicers on this site.
I have stated my belief that abortion should be oultawed.
In this very thread I commented about the video that 4given linked to showing a first trimester abortion and agreed that it is a powerful witness and effective tool against abortion.
I have stated my religious beliefs about the sanctity of life beginning at conception and ending at natural death.
I have stated my opposition to passing out condoms as a "solution" to the abortion problems.
I have at least one time referred to the "horror" of abortion.
I believe that an abortion kills a human person and that it's a grave injustice.
I have not at any time stated or implied that an abortion is acceptable at any time during a pregnancy for any reason.
All I have done is question the EFFECTIVENESS of a particular argument. Questioning whether a particular tool is effective for doing a particular job in no way questioning the importance of the job.
Of course it could very well be that I'm a "bort head" in disguise. If that's the case, a smart guy like you will trip me up eventually, and expose me for the evil spy that I am.
(This reminds of when I joined a prochoice board a few years ago--debating as a prolifer. I was immediately accused of being a dangerous member of the Army of God. And at that point, hadn't a clue who they were).

reply from: sheri

Farimer, dont take Faithman too seriously ( he's a bubble off plumb ) and Yoda is the best, go to his site and see all the prolife work he does, its amazing.
Your arguement is valid. A quick responce would be to say that it is the same baby wether you abort him with a pill at one week old or a machine at 8 or 28 weeks the amount of blood does not change the out come, the baby is just as dead.
Sometimes you may be able to make some headway by saying the soul if infused at fertilization.
Also a true proabort will say it is fine to kill a term baby if that is what the woman wants, so if they claim they dont go for "late" abortions try to pin them down on just when it should be illegal. (Good luck on that one).

reply from: ProInformed

I once was invited to speak in the Denver public high schools as part of a series on 'The BIll of Rights'. Even though the so-called 'right' to abortion is not even part of the Bill of Rights - which YES I did point out to each class I talked to - the schools wanted speakers from both sides of the abortion controversy to participate. At the time the advice of abortionist Hern was for pro-choicers to not attempt to debate with pro-lifers, if there was to be a presentation on abortion, he wanted the pro-abort speaker(s) to insist that the pro-life side not be presented at all. The Denver public school system wouldn't go along with that censorship and insisted BOTH sides would be invited to speak. So the pro-abort side then insisted that there be no handouts, posters, photos, etc. - ONLY spoken words. (BTW, I made sure to tell every class I spoke to about that attempt by the pro-abort side to censor, and how that related to the REAL right of the freedom of speech!)
Because I was not allowed to show diagrams or photos, I described verbally what happens in different types of abortion procedures. After describing the D&E abortion procedure one female student called me a liar. She said her parents had made her watch the Silent Scream and that abortions didn't happen the way I'd said. I calmy reminded her that I was giving descriptions for the various abortion methods that were currently legal, that I had already covered the suction abortion method she was referring to, and had honestly stated that was the method used most frequently in the first trimester. I was in no way trying to mislead those kids by implying that a specific late-term abortion method was used the most and/or used in the first trimester. Her very emotional and irrational accusation was a reaction to the horror she was being made aware of, not to any attempt by me to be deceptive. She needed to believe I MUST be lying BECAUSE the truth being presented was so vile and repulsive. (Also, maybe she wasn't paying close attention and/or was upset because she or somebody she was close to had an abortion that had not yet been dealt with?)
Now I'm not saying that pro-lifers can't possibly be guilty sometimes of presenting info an a deceptive way. And of course to do so would just make it even easier for pro-aborts to pretend that everything pro-lifers claim is false. But the fact that pro-aborts are doing all they can to avoid seeing and accepting the truth because it IS such a gruesome reality and/or because they want to live a selfish, sexually promiscuous lifestyle, is the main problem IMHO. It is the responsibility of each individual pro-choicer to do their own search for the truth. Simply focusing on the pro-lifers and how they present the info, is in itself an evasion tactic. Even if there were no pro-life movement, every choicer who supports abortion would still be personally responsible for endorsing the slaughter of thousands of innocent babies per day. They choose to support something they purposely avoid learning the truth about.
There are many who stop supporting abortion once they see the truth. Some are even willing to change their lifestyle in order to be consistent with becomeing pro-life. Pro-life educational efforts are usually quite effective on such open-minded people.
But when it comes to the pro-aborts who are addicted to the sort of lifestyle abortion enables, then no matter how honest the pro-life presentation is, it will be criticized. IMHO it is not necessary to always take such criticisms so seriously. The focus should instead be switched back to the responsibility of the pro-abort to do their own investigating into the truth, to stop swallowing everything the abortion industry assures them no-questions-asked. AND to carefully consider their OWN dishonesty and complicity in defending abortion... and how they are assuring those who in turn trust THEM that abortion is 'safe', that the preborn are just 'tissue', etc.

reply from: yoda

And here's the irony.... many proaborts will say they can't watch such a disgusting thing.... and yet they can use all their resources to make sure that "such a disgusting thing" keeps on happening over and over.... but they're not willing to look at what they support......no.

reply from: yoda

Indeed you have..... and using such STRONG language!!
There's part of the problem. It's not up to you to decide what is and what isn't effective for other prolifers to do, is it? And if they don't ask for your advice, that's probably because it isn't welcome, ya know?
I don't care if you're Little Orphan Annie or Daddy Warbucks. The words you post here are all that matters to me, nothing else. So if you'd like to join in and try to combat the transparent, illogical "arguments" offered in support of baby killing, by all means do that. Just don't expect to be thanked for any unsolicited advice. We all do our own thing here, as you would notice if you'd bother to read the forum before pontificating to us.

reply from: yoda

Well put!
Proaborts will go to any lengths, twist any situation, and magnify any tiny discrepancy to attempt to impugn the integrity of an individual prolifer, as if their only defense was to say "They're just as bad as we are". But that's the genius of their approach, if we fall for it and try to defend ourselves personally. We can calmly explain our sources and our logic, but we must never allow them to bring us down to their gutter level tactics of character assassination and/or defense. That can only take the spotlight off the plight of the slaughtered babies, and put it on us. And that's never good.

reply from: carolemarie

I just hate gory stuff, I even hated diassecting hearts and stuff in A&P classes..makes me sick
for me the videos make me ill so I don't watch them. I perfer pictures of live babies to show someone. It also makes the same point with out the gore.

reply from: yoda

I have the same reaction, but I force myself to watch each of them at least once. Why? Because it would be hypocritical of me to ask anyone else to watch them if I'm not willing to, that's why.
And I'm going to continue to ask people to watch them, because I know they save baby's lives. I've seen people's hearts change the instant they watch them, or look at the photos. I know they work for many people, and for the ones that they don't work for, they don't make them any more proabort than they were before. So they're a win-win proposition.
I'm willing to make the sacrifice of having my stomach turned, and my disposition made more dark for a few hours, just on the possibility that some babies lives might be saved by my sacrifice. Are you?

reply from: ProInformed

You are right in predicting that pro-aborts wil argue that. Pro-aborts will argue all sorts of things in order to avoud facing the truth. And while I agree that pro-lifers should do all they can to present the truth in an honest manner, and I understand your concern about how to respond to pro-abort arguments, I also believe that pro-lifers are not personally responsible for the failure of pro-aborts to investigate the truth for themselves.
I remember when I first learned the truth and was becoming pro-life that I was very angry at the pro-life movement for 'failing' to reach and teach me sooner with the sort of message that would have gotten through to somebody like me. At the time I was an atheist so it really bothered me that most of what I'd heard about pro-lifers was religious. I would go to pro-life meetings and events and criticize the pro-lifers there if they inculded anything about religion or morality in their opposition to abortion. I saw how the media was purposely focusing on the pro-lifers who were the most religious in order to continue the pretense that the ONLY reasons to be against abortion were religious ones. But after a while I started to face my own failure to learn the truth sooner and my own misplaced trust in those who had assured me that abortion was just a safe and easy way to get un-pregnant. Of course I still wanted the pro-life message to more effectively reach others but my criticisms shifted more appropriately to those who were purposely lying to women and brutally killing babies.
IMHO the problem is not so much that pro-lifers aren't coddling pro-aborts, or not coddling them the right way... but that pro-aborts are not being challenged to stop using evasion tactics and to look at the truth for themselves. Pro-aborts who are actively employing evasion tactics will ALWAYS find some excuse to pretend the info presented by the pro-lifers is untrue. PERIOD. The answer to that stubborn pro-abort denial is not merely more and more nit-picking of fellow pro-lifers methods or in vain attempts to appease the pro-aborts.
What if we responded to those graphic photos of starving prisoners, gas chambers, and ovens from the Nazis with criticism about the photographer's methods instead of condemning what the Nazis did? I guess those who refuse to believe it really happened could claim the prisoners were instructed to suck their tummies in to appear more emaciated before the photo was shot... that it somehow wasn't being presented 100% accurately?
Yes - Do show accurate info about abortions.
No - do not try to dishonestly imply that late-term abortions look the same as first term abortions.
But never forget that pro-abort complaints about how the info is presented are mostly just an evasion tactic they use to prevent or delay looking at the info PERIOD. Challenge the pro-aborts on this instead of criticizing fellow pro-lifers for supposedly not presenting the info in a way that will be acceptable to and/or effective with the pro-aborts.

reply from: Faramir

I thought maybe this was a place for an open exchange of ideas. I didn't know some of you would be so touchy about having an idea challenged or about looking at something from another perspective.
It's taking me awhile to figure this place out. There are no rules or guidelines posted. The closest thing to that so far is being told off by a grumpy old man.
But I expect to find my way here eventually.

reply from: sander

Faramir,
I wish you would have responded to this by Pro-Informed, instead of worrying about a "grumpy old man"...who is very endearing to all the pro-lifers here.
It will go along way in "finding your way here" sooner rather than later.
But, don't worry, we're pretty patient with everyone excpet the likes of vexing.

reply from: Faramir

Well, he has chosen to be "less than endearing" to ME.
And Pro-Informed made an excellent post, and some excellent points. He makes me think.
But it is not an either/or situation. Prolife ideas and methods can be questioned from within while still confronting the opposition.
We still have to debate these people and there is nothing wrong with doing it effectively or in anticipating their responses.

reply from: sander

And yet this is precisley what Yoda and others have been trying to explain in response to your posts. Which consist vastly more of correcting the pro-lifers than the pro-aborts.
It's a little puzzling.
Well, as I've said before, I do believe in iron shapening iron, I'll give you that much. However...see the above, as I've not seen you "confront the opposition" much, if any.

reply from: Faramir

I have confronted Vexing, but I can't confront her anymore since she is now among the dearly departed.
I just made a response yesterday to someone on the opposite side.
Other than that, I have not seen too much opposition around here to confront, but I'll be happy to do so when and if they show up.
Until then, I've only got prolifers to battle with, but I never intended to fight them. I was just making some observations. I didn't expect such defensiveness and suspicion in response.
But just let me know when one of them pro-abort blood thirsty scancs show up, and I'll show you that I can fight them too.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't know about these films. I've been at prolife stuff where they run Hard Truth to work everyone up into an emotional state. I don't know if that is really necessary or not.
You don't need to see that to change your mind about abortion. If live baby in the womb pictures won't do it, neither will bloody pictures.

reply from: sander

Have I thanked you recently?
Well, herein lies some of the problem...was that last line sincere or are you just being sarcastic? Perhaps you're frustrated?
Maybe you just like to argue and since we're scarce on pro-aborts...for now....there was no one left but us pro-lifers?
I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, Faramir.
I've never been on a pro-life website where a fellow pro-lifer attacked the style, consistently, of the pro-life argument.

reply from: Faramir

How dare you even think to question it. How dare you do some independent thinking of your own. And how dare you not just keep it to yourself.
Are you a bort-head pretending to be prolife to subvert this forum?
Come clean corolemarie. I think I'm on to you.

reply from: carolemarie

I think most of us disagree on certain points and ways of doing things. I think it was a valid question, what if someone asked about the first trimester abortions?
A baby at that stage in development -lets say 5 weeks, doesn't look much like a human in a suction abortion. That is why I assume they use the older gestational pictures, so you can see, yes, this is a person.
Same thing at the clinics, the graphic signs of Malachi and other second and third trimester babies make the point that this is a person, and that is the last ditch effort to reach someone so you use everything you have.
The value of getting a prochoicer to watch this film is negligble. They have already made up their minds and don't want to be bothered with the facts! They are not so stupid as to view something they can't defend. Think about it.
If a picture of fetal development won't change your mind, adding gore to it probably won't either.

reply from: sander

You might look at the number of posts Carolmarie has compared to your own.
Nobody questions her right to differ on styles or anything else for that matter...okay, there is one person who doesn't believe she's repented enough...or something like that.
Anyway, she has established her pro-life views in an unquestionable way.
I'm sorry if you feel like you're being attacked, but I've tried to explain earlier that this board gets its fair number of pro-aborts posing as pro-life...you must have noticed this by now even in the short time you've been here.
And like I've said also, you're the first pro-lifer who has consistently questioned the style and approach of the well established pro-life people on this board.
You came right out of the shoot questioning approach and style, which made it hard to even tell which side you were on...we didn't create that cloud of doubt you did.
There's a saying..."circling the wagons", when people who are on the same side are challenged by the opposing view we tend to "circle the wagons" and not attack style instead of the opposing view.
I sound like a broken record and am rather tired of this same conversation, as I'm sure you are.
You have the right to post any view at anytime...there's no censoring on these boards that I know of.
I'm glad you're here...I don't have a problem with you posting, but I hope you will afford us who disagree with your "style" the same courtesy you want afforded to disagreeing with ours.

reply from: Faramir

It's a little amusing but also a little irritating to be thought of as a "spy" or whatever.
What is most irritating is that I felt I made some honest and valid observations and they were dealt with in a very defensive manner, with zero consideration as to whether there was any validity. Instead of dealing with the point, there was more of a "you've got a lot of nerve" attitude, besides one of suspicion. I'm used to being on debate boards where a free exchange of ideas was encouraged, and am not used to seeing such defensiveness.
But I appreciate that you're glad I'm here Sander, and that you don't want to run me off.
It might be considered that there should be some forum rules or guidelines established so that the new person can get an idea of what this forum is about and what is expected.
I am not sure, frankly, what I should speak up about and what I should remain silent about.
You have made the point that someone should distance himself from a group, such as the Democrats, if they are embracing something as a group that is evil. That's a valid point, and I agree to a point, but I also think that it might be sufficient to at least separate from an issue and make it clear you don't agree with the group on a particular point.
That's kind of how I feel about this place. I indentify with being prolife, yet I have seen what is from my perpective a prolifer being abusive and using degrading language. Should I just watch that and think to myslef that's "his way" and let him do his thing? Or should I separate myself and speak up and say that's not how a prolifer should be behaving, and that he's giving prolifers a bad name?
You don't have to answer that question and I apologize if I have taken up too much space discussing this, but there might be times when I think I should speak up about something, and I wish I could do so without there being the knee-jerk reaction that that must mean I'm a "pro-abort."

reply from: RedTaintedRose

Not bad for a B rate poorly made and underfunded scifi flick. Do you have Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon? and make popcorn next time please. You can send your thugs too or did you want to wait until after you killed me execution style Mr. Prolife?
BTW on that topic will you be the one explaining to my children why you murdered their mother in cold blood and sent domestic terrorists after her as well?
Bring your stupid army of god fruitloops into my dark ally please!! I have often wondered how they'd fare against some medieval weapontry I am fairly skilled with. Good knows it won't be a contest of wits; they'd lose especially with you guiding them..

reply from: Faramir

Not bad for a B rate poorly made and underfunded scifi flick. Do you have Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon? and make popcorn next time please. You can send your thugs too or did you want to wait until after you killed me execution style Mr. Prolife?
BTW on that topic will you be the one explaining to my children why you murdered their mother in cold blood and sent domestic terrorists after her as well?
Bring your stupid army of god fruitloops into my dark ally please!! I have often wondered how they'd fare against some medieval weapontry I am fairly skilled with. Good knows it won't be a contest of wits; they'd lose especially with you guiding them..
Can you provide a quote to support this serious accusation you're making?
You do realize you come from a site where you have a lot of violent people to support you, so you're well protected.
You've got Vexing the Beater, Darkmoon who threatens to kidnap children, and Gwwynnochio who would deck him, or could abuse him to death with nasty notes.
The prochoice side has a few dangerous whackos too, but I think you misunderstood what you perceived to be a threat. If it's the one I'm thinking of, you need to read it more carefully.

reply from: Teresa18

"Not bad?!!" How can you view such a gruesome film exposing abortion with the bodies of babies killed every day in our country and say such a thing? It's worse than bad! It's horrible!

reply from: faithman

Not bad for a B rate poorly made and underfunded scifi flick. Do you have Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon? and make popcorn next time please. You can send your thugs too or did you want to wait until after you killed me execution style Mr. Prolife?
BTW on that topic will you be the one explaining to my children why you murdered their mother in cold blood and sent domestic terrorists after her as well?
Bring your stupid army of god fruitloops into my dark ally please!! I have often wondered how they'd fare against some medieval weapontry I am fairly skilled with. Good knows it won't be a contest of wits; they'd lose especially with you guiding them..
Your children would probly rejoice with the rest of us that the world was rid of a blood sucking witch. Iwould say their little lives are probly full of abuse having a pro-death scumbag, maggot punk monster of a mom like you. You death scanc like carrying coat hangers around, is that what you beat them with mommy dearest? Or maybe you use those "medieval weapons" you brag to be so good at using?

reply from: yoda

From what I read, hardly anyone gets an abortion that early anyway. It's usually not even detectable until around 7 or 8 weeks, and most abortions are at least a couple weeks later than that. But yes, it makes more sense to use photos that the average layperson can relate to as a human being, since that's the whole point.
It was the hypocrisy of their refusal to look that I was pointing out. They support it, and yet they refuse to even look at what they support.

reply from: yoda

You seem to be in a very small minority in that opinion, but don't let that deter you from seeking "victim" status here. Just occasionally direct your venom towards the enemy, okay?

reply from: carolemarie

Well, people do, pregnancy can be detected much earlier now than it use to be.
I don't think they are hypocrites because they don't want to watch a rather disturbing film. They see this not as a life issue. To them this is a justice for women issue.
I don't know how you bridge that pov divide.

reply from: yoda

And you don't think it's basically dishonest to deny the living status of a developing human embryo?
You don't see that as the least bit dishonest?

reply from: sander

I get why the pro-aborts have to characterize these films/photos as "B" and "sci/fi" films. They MUST, after all....they have to sleep too.
I've noticed the vast majority of pro-aborts that post here are juvenile to the extreme...have any of them even graduated from middle school yet?

reply from: sander

Do you not think that perhaps they've made it a "women" issue because if they view this as a life issue it will force them to face their own death mentality and it will expose them as "hypocrits"?
It's a simple matter of not wanting to watch because it exposes the brutality of what they support, nothing more nothing less.

reply from: sander

I'm going to answer anyway...I don't know why you're missing the point.
It's NOT that you shouldn't speak up...here is the point, it's that the VAST majority of your speaking up is directed against the pro-lilfer.
This is an odd place to do that since it's a pro-life website...is any of this sinking in?
You came out of the shoot doing this....maybe this can be a learning experience, when you come to a site that supports something that you are for it's best to not attack the person's views, style, etc. right off the bat. Establish yourself first...then take to task the things you see differently.
Why do I feel like I'm beating a dead horse?

reply from: joe

What? Not watch what they support with a passion...pure hypocrisy. Stop defending the killers, carolemarie. Not only should they be forced to watch the holocaust they support, they should be forced to view the victim before they kill in 3d/4d ultrasound and during the murder. Maybe you should have done the same carolemarie and then maybe I would not have to defend the innocent from a pro-life advocate.

reply from: LolitaOlivia

Hey, I watched it. It looks pretty fake. Even if it's real, who cares? Plenty of procedures are even more gross. You don't seen anyone banning them. Anyone here ever watch Nip/Tuck? Half the stuff they do on that show is more bloody. Are you going to ban plastic surgery next?

reply from: sander

These are dead human beings...you know, the same species you're from. There's no comparison to killing babies vs. plastic surgery.
Are you an idiot by choice?

reply from: yoda

Wait now, let's not jump to any conclusions........ ??

reply from: faithman

What? Not watch what they support with a passion...pure hypocrisy. Stop defending the killers, carolemarie. Not only should they be forced to watch the holocaust they support, they should be forced to view the victim before they kill in 3d/4d ultrasound and during the murder. Maybe you should have done the same carolemarie and then maybe I would not have to defend the innocent from a pro-life advocate.
Whats a little "youthful mistake" between friends? All we need to do is pray the little Jesus prayer, and sweep all this under the rug. We shouldn't show things that might make one feel bad about killing womb children. The womb child is second in consideration behind a woman's feelings after all. Actually if we could just buy into this 'theology', we would be for abortion. Because all aborted children go to heaven after all. So the bortheads are doing God a favor. Killing children before they have a chance to go to hell. We just need to get in step with "post abortive ministry", and give killer moms a big ole hug, and a badge of honor for killing their children. Yah, that will stop the slaughter.

reply from: joe

LOL. The only skill you possess is in your WOW game. Do not compare the righteous passion of pro-life advocates with your pathetic childish games. You are a non-issue to those able to defend themselves.

reply from: sander

Wait now, let's not jump to any conclusions........ ??
True.
I was just trying to nice.

reply from: faithman

In case you missed it, early development, and first trimester abortion was represented in the video. So the complaint is mute. Just like always, you chose to cherry pick an issue, and leave out what totally shoots your aurgumant down. The very first image was a fertilized egg. How much earlier do you want? Some of the little arms, hands and legs were 10 weeks. The prob you are haveing is the fact of just how developed first trimester womb children are, that you can't recognize it when you see it. This is a pretty full spectrum video on development. I guess if you dummies are going to post your misleading messages, I will have to continue to post what is represented. I can see ho someone who refuses to watch the full video could make this mistake. But on does not have the right to post misleading crap, just because they don't like the facts.

reply from: LolitaOlivia

These are dead human beings...you know, the same species you're from. There's no comparison to killing babies vs. plastic surgery.
The purpose of these videos and pictures is to gross people out. As if it being gross should impact people's opinions on it. So, yeah, the comparison is there.

reply from: joe

What? Not watch what they support with a passion...pure hypocrisy. Stop defending the killers, carolemarie. Not only should they be forced to watch the holocaust they support, they should be forced to view the victim before they kill in 3d/4d ultrasound and during the murder. Maybe you should have done the same carolemarie and then maybe I would not have to defend the innocent from a pro-life advocate.
Whats a little "youthful mistake" between friends? All we need to do is pray the little Jesus prayer, and sweep all this under the rug. We shouldn't show things that might make one feel bad about killing womb children. The womb child is second in consideration behind a woman's feelings after all. Actually if we could just buy into this 'theology', we would be for abortion. Because all aborted children go to heaven after all. So the bortheads are doing God a favor. Killing children before they have a chance to go to hell. We just need to get in step with "post abortive ministry", and give killer moms a big ole hug, and a badge of honor for killing their children. Yah, that will stop the slaughter.
Agreed. In what other crime do we hug the killer, honor them and then let them go free? Carolemarie or a pro-abort who does more damage? I would have to guess they are about equal, both dehumanize the unborn.

reply from: sander

That's where you're dead wrong (pun intended), the purpose is to show that a child is being destroyed, not to gross someone out.
But, I don't expect you to allow yourself to understand.
You can't. You have to sleep too at night.

reply from: joe

No. That is your purpose.

reply from: faithman

What? Not watch what they support with a passion...pure hypocrisy. Stop defending the killers, carolemarie. Not only should they be forced to watch the holocaust they support, they should be forced to view the victim before they kill in 3d/4d ultrasound and during the murder. Maybe you should have done the same carolemarie and then maybe I would not have to defend the innocent from a pro-life advocate.
Whats a little "youthful mistake" between friends? All we need to do is pray the little Jesus prayer, and sweep all this under the rug. We shouldn't show things that might make one feel bad about killing womb children. The womb child is second in consideration behind a woman's feelings after all. Actually if we could just buy into this 'theology', we would be for abortion. Because all aborted children go to heaven after all. So the bortheads are doing God a favor. Killing children before they have a chance to go to hell. We just need to get in step with "post abortive ministry", and give killer moms a big ole hug, and a badge of honor for killing their children. Yah, that will stop the slaughter.
Agreed. In what other crime do we hug the killer, honor them and then let them go free? Carolemarie or a pro-abort who does more damage? I would have to guess they are about equal, both dehumanize the unborn.
Watch it!!!!! you make too much sence.

reply from: Faramir

Sander,
Since I'm not yet established here and might not have all the parts of the puzzle, I'm going to ask before I say anything this time.
It seems to me there is a member of this board who has had at least one abortion but who is now prolife, and who regrets her abortion(s) and does not advocate abortion.
It also seems to me that there are at least two member of this board who seem to want to punish her verbally, in spite of the fact she's no longer on that side of the issue.
So before I say anything, please tell me if I'm right about that, and if that is a policy of this board--that those who have aborted, even if prolife now, should be badgered for it. That's the impression I have, but maybe you or someone could fill me in on what I've missed.

reply from: AshMarie88

These are dead human beings...you know, the same species you're from. There's no comparison to killing babies vs. plastic surgery.
The purpose of these videos and pictures is to gross people out. As if it being gross should impact people's opinions on it. So, yeah, the comparison is there.
Right, and I suppose photos of the German Holocaust are just to gross people out. *rolls eyes*

reply from: faithman

What you have missed is because you are blinded by your "niceness". What you have missed is the fact that the person in question has continuosly used pro-abort rhetoric to justify killing womb children. What you have missed is the fact this is a pro-womb child forum. What you have missed is post after post that dishonors the memory of the slaughtered womb child. What you have missed is the double speak that in one post says no regrets, then when called on it, turns around and speaks of regret. What you have missed is perversion of the scripture to form a theology that demenishes personal responsability, and makes the womb child second in consideration behind a womans feelings. What you have missed is someone wearing their killing womb children as a badge of pro-life honor that gives one the right to talk down to others. Take you pansy rose colored glasses off, and you just might see what you refuse to see. Mercy becomes cruel when it is exstended without justice for the innocent. I one kills a born child, they will be a murderer until they leave this planet, no matter how many Jesus prayers they pray. If we demand that kind of justice for the born person, how in the world can we deny the same for the womb child, and call ourselves pro-life?

reply from: Faramir

What you have missed is because you are blinded by your "niceness". What you have missed is the fact that the person in question has continuosly used pro-abort rhetoric to justify killing womb children. What you have missed is the fact this is a pro-womb child forum. What you have missed is post after post that dishonors the memory of the slaughtered womb child. What you have missed is the double speak that in one post says no regrets, then when called on it, turns around and speaks of regret. What you have missed is perversion of the scripture to form a theology that demenishes personal responsability, and makes the womb child second in consideration behind a womans feelings. What you have missed is someone wearing their killing womb children as a badge of pro-life honor that gives one the right to talk down to others. Take you pansy rose colored glasses off, and you just might see what you refuse to see. Mercy becomes cruel when it is exstended without justice for the innocent. I one kills a born child, they will be a murderer until they leave this planet, no matter how many Jesus prayers they pray. If we demand that kind of justice for the born person, how in the world can we deny the same for the womb child, and call ourselves pro-life?
Some of the best testimony I have heard against abortion has come from women who have aborted and regretted it.
These women have been raised in an abortion culture and are also victims themselves--victims of lies, ignorance, and confusion.
What would you have them do?

reply from: sander

That sound you hear is me banging my head against the keyboard!
You're now isolating an approach by some pro-lifers towards another pro-lifer...yikes, we're not just discussing that topic, but ALL the times you've attacked style, approach, etc.
Okay, here's the deal...post away, my friend...ask nobody anything, I or no one else here is the last word on what anyone can say. We still have free speech...that is until the democrats get their way with the "Fairness Doctrine", but I digress...
So, post away...you're free, free, free at last!

reply from: yoda

What? You mean he's "stirring the pot"? You mean he's trying to reopen old wounds? You mean he would actually stir up a previously dormant controversy for some imagined personal advantage?
Surely not!!

reply from: sander

What? You mean he's "stirring the pot"? You mean he's trying to reopen old wounds? You mean he would actually stir up a previously dormant controversy for some imagined personal advantage?
Surely not!!
Stunning, I know.
But, the good news is that I've stopped banging my head against the keyboard!

reply from: sheri

sander, do you agree with fatmans attitude toward carol?

reply from: faithman

What you have missed is because you are blinded by your "niceness". What you have missed is the fact that the person in question has continuosly used pro-abort rhetoric to justify killing womb children. What you have missed is the fact this is a pro-womb child forum. What you have missed is post after post that dishonors the memory of the slaughtered womb child. What you have missed is the double speak that in one post says no regrets, then when called on it, turns around and speaks of regret. What you have missed is perversion of the scripture to form a theology that demenishes personal responsability, and makes the womb child second in consideration behind a womans feelings. What you have missed is someone wearing their killing womb children as a badge of pro-life honor that gives one the right to talk down to others. Take you pansy rose colored glasses off, and you just might see what you refuse to see. Mercy becomes cruel when it is exstended without justice for the innocent. I one kills a born child, they will be a murderer until they leave this planet, no matter how many Jesus prayers they pray. If we demand that kind of justice for the born person, how in the world can we deny the same for the womb child, and call ourselves pro-life?
Some of the best testimony I have heard against abortion has come from women who have aborted and regretted it.
These women have been raised in an abortion culture and are also victims themselves--victims of lies, ignorance, and confusion.
What would you have them do?
Once again you make it about what it is not. Once again you try to mis represent all that I ha ve posted. Point out one post where I have tried to deminish anyones stance for life, quite the contr5ary, I call into question those who do deminish the issue of personhood of the womb child. I would have them [as do most of them] admit to the fact that abortion is murder. I would have them understand, thow forgiven, in this life time will be considered a murderer just like anyone who has murdered a born child. I would have them stick their "abortion experiances" in their hip pocket, and not flaunt it as a badge of superiority over other pro-lifers. I would have them not use borthead rhetoric to "justify youthful mistakes". I would have them not pervert justice for the womb child, to secure mercy for themselves. I would have them not make the womb child second in consideration after the post abortive's feelings. I know many post abortive women. And I know that their testimony at the clinic is some of the most powerful in turning women away from the clinic. But not a one of them that i know has such a cavalier attitude, and pervert scripture and justice to releave the personal responcibility of committing murder. My issue first last and always, is the womb child. I don't care what your faith is, nor your abortion experiance. But if I see that your belief system, or your "experiance" is a danger to the focus of person hood to the womb child, then I will speak up long and loud about it. If your panty waist behind can't see that So be it. But please quit putting words in my mouth, and quit making this about what it is not. Leave the word twisting to the bortheads. I have only responded, not ignitiated this issue. If you care to leave it alone, I will too. But I for one will not remain silent when things endanger folks from seeing the womb child as the primary object of anything pro-life.

reply from: yoda

Ah ha! So that's why your spelling is looking so much better?!?!?!??

reply from: sander

His on screen name is "Faithman".
I don't agree with alot of things that I see go on everywhere.
I've not seen him charactize her pro-life stand to be anything but pro-life.
And in my view this is between Faithman and Carolmarie. She seems to be able to fend for herself very well.
It shouldn't matter if I agree with his attitude towards Carol, what should matter is his attitude towards the babies who are being slaughtered as we discuss something that is truly irrevelant to the abortion issue.
Carol works in her way to stop the slaughter, I work in my way and in the meantime Faithman is doing more than I could ever dream of doing...I pale in comparison.

reply from: sander

LOL!
Well, at least something positive came out of that seemingly un-ending diatribe!

reply from: carolemarie

I agree it is a baby---if it wasn't I wouldn't have spent a decade of my life standing outside the clinic trying to help women chose life.

reply from: yoda

A great big agnostic AMEN to that!!

reply from: carolemarie

Do you not think that perhaps they've made it a "women" issue because if they view this as a life issue it will force them to face their own death mentality and it will expose them as "hypocrits"?
It's a simple matter of not wanting to watch because it exposes the brutality of what they support, nothing more nothing less.
And you believe that if they look at a live baby development pictures, that isn't going to be enough to convince them that abortion ends the life of a baby? Somehow if it is gory and sickening that will work better?
If you are okay with abortion because women have a right to choose, the gore factor won't change your mind.

reply from: carolemarie

What? Not watch what they support with a passion...pure hypocrisy. Stop defending the killers, carolemarie. Not only should they be forced to watch the holocaust they support, they should be forced to view the victim before they kill in 3d/4d ultrasound and during the murder. Maybe you should have done the same carolemarie and then maybe I would not have to defend the innocent from a pro-life advocate.
Well, the one who watched it seems rather unmoved by the whole thing....
And I am not defending them, just saying that gore isn't going to make them change position and I am not sure what will.

reply from: sander

IMO, you're giving them too much credit by limiting it to the development pictures.
I think we have to understand the nature of the human conscience, it is self protecting and sometimes it needs a big jolt to wake it up.
They hide from the results because they can't face the results.
You would have to have been living on another planet to have never seen pictures of fetal development, but you don't have to be too far to have NOT seen the pictures showing what the dismembered baby looks like.

reply from: faithman

Do you not think that perhaps they've made it a "women" issue because if they view this as a life issue it will force them to face their own death mentality and it will expose them as "hypocrits"?
It's a simple matter of not wanting to watch because it exposes the brutality of what they support, nothing more nothing less.
And you believe that if they look at a live baby development pictures, that isn't going to be enough to convince them that abortion ends the life of a baby? Somehow if it is gory and sickening that will work better?
If you are okay with abortion because women have a right to choose, the gore factor won't change your mind.
Tell that to OSA who has a habit Of using gore in school zones. Your ole pal sheri has gotten real ugly with me when I pointed that very fact out. When another poster wanted abortion video we catch grief because we post one of the best examples of all time. OSA has also used this video. I have posted on many occasions that I feel the live pictures are the best. But I also recognize that the bloody pictures are effective. My peresonality type says rub the SOB's noses in the blood. But my practical mind tells me that effectiveness is more important than "giving it to the bortheads". This forum serves the purpose of relieving the pressure for this tea kettle. But iot also gives all of us a place to net work, get armed, and get busy. That is why I offer the IAAP cards free to anyone who will simply take the time to request them. I know from experiance that they work in a very powerful way. The evidence is over helming. We need to pretty much write off the bortheads. We need to put most of our energy in getting effective material in front of as many eyes as we can. I am committed to exactly that. The mushy middle is where the battle lies. The mushies are totally put off by bloody imagery, but they will embrace the live pictures. All you have to do, is get the cards and hand them out. You will find out very quickly just how powerful they are in the field.

reply from: carolemarie

What would you have them do?
Suffer and grovel in the presence of our betters.

reply from: carolemarie

I know they do and I disagree with that. And at one time I used the gory stuff at the clinic and on the truth tours. (the good thing about holding a poster is you never have to look at it)
But I have come to believe that is not the best way to do things. If South Dakota is any indication, we need to reach women to stop abortion. Dead baby signs turn them off.
The live pictures say the same thing in a way a woman can hear. It is non-threatening to her, and you have to reach her to change her mind.

reply from: Faramir

What you have missed is because you are blinded by your "niceness". What you have missed is the fact that the person in question has continuosly used pro-abort rhetoric to justify killing womb children. What you have missed is the fact this is a pro-womb child forum. What you have missed is post after post that dishonors the memory of the slaughtered womb child. What you have missed is the double speak that in one post says no regrets, then when called on it, turns around and speaks of regret. What you have missed is perversion of the scripture to form a theology that demenishes personal responsability, and makes the womb child second in consideration behind a womans feelings. What you have missed is someone wearing their killing womb children as a badge of pro-life honor that gives one the right to talk down to others. Take you pansy rose colored glasses off, and you just might see what you refuse to see. Mercy becomes cruel when it is exstended without justice for the innocent. I one kills a born child, they will be a murderer until they leave this planet, no matter how many Jesus prayers they pray. If we demand that kind of justice for the born person, how in the world can we deny the same for the womb child, and call ourselves pro-life?
It seems to me that she is thoroughly prolife. Could you give some examples that would demonstrate otherwise. It also seems to me that she regrets her abortions, is sorry, and will never have another one.
She was born into an "abortion culture." She might not have understood that an abortion kills a baby. That it's a baby, I agree, but I do not agree she is as culpbable as a murderer, since she did what she did with the sanction of the law, and the approval and encouragement of our culture.
What would she need to do or change so that you would treat her respectfully?

reply from: joe

Some killers cannot be changed, that is the reason for prisons. That video galvanized my position as pro-life, it does the same to others. Every single person needs to witness what abortion is, no censorship. It should be aired on public television and shown to every father, mother and child. The pro-choice advocates hate this video for a reason, do not join them in censoring the truth.

reply from: carolemarie

Some killers cannot be changed, that is the reason for prisons. That video galvanized my position as pro-life, it does the same to others. Every single person needs to witness what abortion is, no censorship. It should be aired on public television and shown to every father, mother and child. The pro-choice advocates hate this video for a reason, do not join them in censoring the truth.
You were pro-choice before you saw the video? Or were you prolife?

reply from: sheri

Sander,
It is important to renounce fboys comments because if a postabortive woman were to happen on this board and hear that there is no redemption for her, that the rest of her life she is to be branded a murderer and no amount of prolife work can help to show how sorry she is for her abortion, then that woman may believe other prolifers believe that and shy away from help.
I disagree with CM on things, She just now mentioned her oppposition to the aborted baby signs, i consider them the best weapon we have in this battle. Im not saying you cant disagree with each other but taking it to a level of vitriol that we normally associate with proaborts makes us look as uncaring as proaborts.
Please dont let these comments sway anyone from saying whats on their mind if it involves myself, I can take it, i deserve it, but a post abortive woman does deserve special concern and hate speach toward them only hurts our cause.

reply from: faithman

Now no body pass out or anything, but I totally agree with this post. It mirrors my experiance exactly.

reply from: sander

The son of a very dear friend of mine was on the fence until he saw the pictures of the dead babies. He changed on the spot.
I think there's room for both types of pictures. And like I've said, the human conscience is a tricky thing...it is self protective.

reply from: joe

Faramir, were the Jews murdered? It was sanctioned by law.
Dehumanizing the unborn is an insult and hypocritical to the pro-life stance. A pro-life advocate must first and foremost understand and respect that the unborn are innocent human beings and must be honored as such. Any person that contradicts that simple premise is damaging to the pro-life cause and exposes himself as an enemy to the unborn.
The principals you carry for the born must be applied to the unborn, that is if you sincerely believe they are innocent human beings.

reply from: sander

I haven't taken sides on either side of their personal differences. This is between Carol and Faithman, neither of them has asked me to intervene.
I'd serve that post-abortive woman better by directly addressing her when and if she appears.
I respect your opinions and your right to express them.
I stand by what I said earlier, the most important thing is to consider the dying babies who continue to perish while we busy ourselves with side issues and personal disputes.

reply from: sheri

Joe,
Do you refer to every woman who is now or has been on the pill as a murderer?

reply from: sheri

sander,
this is not a side issue.

reply from: sander

I'm not sure why you insist that I get in the middle of their personal issues.
I'm not going to do that and I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that this is a side issue.

reply from: faithman

What you have missed is because you are blinded by your "niceness". What you have missed is the fact that the person in question has continuosly used pro-abort rhetoric to justify killing womb children. What you have missed is the fact this is a pro-womb child forum. What you have missed is post after post that dishonors the memory of the slaughtered womb child. What you have missed is the double speak that in one post says no regrets, then when called on it, turns around and speaks of regret. What you have missed is perversion of the scripture to form a theology that demenishes personal responsability, and makes the womb child second in consideration behind a womans feelings. What you have missed is someone wearing their killing womb children as a badge of pro-life honor that gives one the right to talk down to others. Take you pansy rose colored glasses off, and you just might see what you refuse to see. Mercy becomes cruel when it is exstended without justice for the innocent. I one kills a born child, they will be a murderer until they leave this planet, no matter how many Jesus prayers they pray. If we demand that kind of justice for the born person, how in the world can we deny the same for the womb child, and call ourselves pro-life?
It seems to me that she is thoroughly prolife. Could you give some examples that would demonstrate otherwise. It also seems to me that she regrets her abortions, is sorry, and will never have another one.
She was born into an "abortion culture." She might not have understood that an abortion kills a baby. That it's a baby, I agree, but I do not agree she is as culpbable as a murderer, since she did what she did with the sanction of the law, and the approval and encouragement of our culture.
What would she need to do or change so that you would treat her respectfully?
Quit disrespecting the memory of the womb child by calling them a "youthful mistake". Quit trying to dodge responsibility of killing children behind a Jesus prayer. Quit perverting justice for the womb child, just to claim mercy for the post abortive. there is not a soul on this earth that does not deserve hell death and a grave. I am all for God's mercy and grace, and His ability to make one a new creature. But that in no way relieves personal responsibily while on this earth . For the most part, I think you will find that we agree . But one drop of poision makes the whole glass of milk poision. Anything that I think blurs the issue of womb life is a danger to the same IMO. And though we are forgiven by the shed blood of Christ, we are still responsibel to do everything we can to make it right with those we have wronged. No where have I put down any effort of hers to save children. My issue is a very simple, and I have numbered them over and over again, only to be misquoted and misunderstood. Now if you just want to be thick headed, and willingly ignorant, then I guess I will have to post over and over again my position. You can disagree with it all you want. But if you can't comprehend so be it. This is first last and always a womb child issue. I want this over. I don't care about debates, organizations, faith groups, ministries, or any other issue or hiden agenda that folks prostitute the womb child out for. I am convenced that we have found a silver bullet with IAAP. that is why I send all my pro-life money producing Them, and mailing them out. I will mail them to anyone upon request, even if I do not totally agree with them. If what I am saying is wrong, then it can not harm anyone, but only make them stronger. If what I am saying is right, then just maybe it will shed some light on needed change. Either way, I believe that we all will be better for it on the other side.

reply from: joe

I had a mainstream pro-life position.

reply from: 4given

You said the Malachi poster changed your mind about abortion.

reply from: 4given

The photos have helped the lukewarm realize the importance of their voice and stance in regard to the abortion issue- at least within my family. I am thankful to have access to both. And I agree that both are necessary and both should be used.

reply from: faithman

You do not put words in my mouth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Show one post where I said there is no redemption for the post abortive. You have a right to your opinion, but you do not have the right to lie about what I have posted here. You very conveniantly ignore all the double speak, and cherry pick and twist things into what they never were. Redemption in no way relieves the responcibility of our actions while on this earth. No where does the bible teach such non-sence. As I have posted over, and over and over and over again, is that the soft aproach is best pre abortion. But don't make post abortion a cruel mercy by ignoring mercy for the womb child. And you are just simply wrong about the bloody pictures. they hurt us big time in winning the mushie middle, that is just a fact. The best imagery to reach women at risk, and educating young children is the live pictures, ultra sound, and the like. You have refused to answere the question about effectiveness. Ultra sound ministries report that over 90% of women who are considering abortion see the live image deside not to abort. Show us oh wise one, where the bloody pictures have the same batting average? So you get to slander someone, and not back up your claims, even after those you have dissed have shown that what you are saying simply aint true. The most powerful card out there right now is IAAP bar none. And if you had one shred of honesty, and could drop the grudge you bear against me, you would get a free sample and start winning hearts insted of offending them.,

reply from: joe

If the pill has caused the destruction of the unborn, the answer is yes.
We all need the mercy of God through repentance. Our God is merciful and just.
To deny the sin is not repentance.

reply from: sheri

What do you mean if? And yes if your saying we are all guilty i agree with you but to point to a repentent sinner and say "you will always be a murderer" does not serve our cause.

reply from: sheri

Fboy,
We can afford better more effective lit. but thanks it is very generous of you.
The bloody pictures work to change minds. I dont have any studies to back that up, what i have is experience, we used just the baby pictures at one time, when we started using the bloody after abortion pictures as well, it was like a light went on, you need both. i realize my testimony is very limited but priests for life has a better apologia, so does GAP at CBR.
Pointing to The post abortive women and saying they are and will always be murderers is wrong. By condemning a person like that you are saying God lacks the ability to forgive so dont even bother asking. We live in a society that pushes women into abortion, we allow over 4000 abortions a day, we all have blood guilt.

reply from: joe

If meaning that only God knows the unborn that were killed by the pills.
Maybe some are innocent by being unable to conceive to begin with.
Carolemarie must hold the same principals for the unborn as she does for the born. One cannot deny the sin and call themselves repentant.

reply from: faithman

Yes it does. It maintains the memory of the innocent one who was murdered. If they would do the telling of it, then I wouldn't have to. I have heard testimonies of the post abortive to that very fact. The first step to true healing for any sin is fessing up, not justifying. As long as the post abortive admit to being baby killers then they won't hear a peep out of me. Is abortion murderer or isn't it? And if you could put your emotions away for a second, logic dictates that one involved in the act of murder is a murderer. Anyone who has killed a born person lives the rest of their lives a murderer, even if they find redemption. Most truely repentant do not try to pretty up their wrong doing. They want it ugly to diswade others from following their path. the truely repentant do not try to completely ignore the seriousness of the evil they committed. As has been stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND over again, this is a womb child issue. Anything that blurs that fact has become the enemy of them no matter if one realizes that or not.

reply from: faithman

Onse again you totally misrepresent what I have said. I condemn no one. Show one post where I have said God lacks the ability to forgive. I never said that and you need to quit lying about what I have said. Now show one post where I have said any such thing!!!!!!! I have not. What I have said, is though forgiven, the justice for the victim demands that one will be a murderer while on this planet. Quit twisting my words and make out words I neverd said. If one kills a born child, sociaty will always consider them a murderer. It is a total disrespect to the womb child to do different for them.

reply from: Faramir

I didn't use those words. It's far more than a "mistake" to have an abortion. But many who have aborted have been deceived into thinking it is less than what it is.
Jesus said to the adutlerer, "Where are those who condemn you? Nether do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."
She doesn't from that point need to wear an "A" on her blouse, and neither does Carole need to wear an "A" for abortion.
Where is the justice for her womb child? Should she be punished, imprisoned, executed? What needs to happen for there to be justice for her child?
From what I can see, she IS a new person. Besides that, each and every one of us has the blood of abortion on our hands.
I agree we should do nothing to water down the message that an abortion kills a child. But those who have aborted and repented have their own hell to live with, and we don't need to inflict any punishment on them. They think about their children and dream about them, and would bring them back if they could. But they can't bring them back to life. What they can do now is hope to be one day reconciled with them, and they can "go and abort no more."
The way I see it the battle is fought on many fronts. You are right about the "mushy middle." We have to convince THEM. That means public relations and appearances ARE important. You can be all for saving the children and still be compassionate and kind to those who have aborted. I don't think it makes the prolife cause look good if a prolifer is beating up another prolifer because she needs to be punished, or whatever it is you are trying to accomplish with her, because at this point I frankly don't get it. I just know that it makes me cringe to see what appears to me as bullying and abuse of someone who has done wrong, has repented of it, but who also WAS wronged. She didn't commit the sin of abortion in a vaccuum.
I have requested samples of those cards and if they seem to be an effective tool will purchase some and distrubute them as well. I don't in any way mean to criticize whatever efforts you make to stop abortion. I am concerned, however, that in your zeal you are running roughshod over some people in a way that makes you look bad and more importantly, your CAUSE look bad.
The prolife post-abortive woman knows about her child and suffers deeply. God will see to it if she needs to suffer some form of pennance. I don't think we need to rub salt in her wounds. We need to show her love and compassion, because ultimately those are the tools that will stop aborition.
The LAW has told women it is ok to abort. Our CULTURE has told women it is ok to abort. Until those change a woman who aborts is less culpable than a murderer, because we tell murderers it is wrong to murder, but we tell women it is acceptable to to terminate their pregnancies.

reply from: yoda

I have seen the "gore" work wonders on even hard core proaborts. It may not work on every one, but it can and does work sometimes. No prolifer should dismiss anything that has worked to save babies, and has never cost a baby it's life. That's working against the babies.

reply from: yoda

It seems to me that you are way, way too interested in stirring up old conflicts here to be a stranger to this forum. Just needed a change of name, perhaps?

reply from: sheri

Fboy,If any one else is suffering (or in your case benefiting) from a short term memory loss problem, they can read back and there amoungst your pearls of wisdom and shameless self promotion they will find cruel words directed at CM and meant for all aborted women.
She admitted her guilt, she said she had killed two of her babies she said it was a mistake she works even now to try to stop other women from the pain she has endured, that is not good enough for you. The only Man any of us are required to grovel to has already forgiven her! So let it go!

reply from: Faramir

It seems to me that you are way, way too interested in stirring up old conflicts here to be a stranger to this forum. Just needed a change of name, perhaps?
I was responding to a recent post in this very thread. The post was made by Joe and directed at Carolemarie.
I'm new to this forum, however. I've never been here under any other name.
Do you feel comfortable seeing Carolemarie abused the way she is? Or is that just their "style"? It seems you choose to look the other way, and that bullying is fine with you, but that it's NOT fine to question the effectiveness of an argument, and you take that personally, as if your child has been attacked.

reply from: yoda

The concept of redemption is a religious one, and it has nothing to do with the secular concept of being a murderer. One may be forgiven for everything in their past, and redeemed according to orthodox Christian theology, but that does not change the physical facts of one's past in any way. One who has robbed is still a robber, and one who has killed is still a killer. They are just forgiven robbers and killers.

reply from: Faramir

The concept of redemption is a religious one, and it has nothing to do with the secular concept of being a murderer. One may be forgiven for everything in their past, and redeemed according to orthodox Christian theology, but that does not change the physical facts of one's past in any way. One who has robbed is still a robber, and one who has killed is still a killer. They are just forgiven robbers and killers.
If you need to stick to secular concepts, then anyone who aborts is most definately NOT a murderer by definition. Abortion is legal.

reply from: yoda

From where I sit, it seems to me that maybe you are the one who needs to let it go? Like sander said, Carole defends herself quite adequately, and it serves no purpose to make generalized attacks on anyone here. If you have a specific complaint, push the quote button so we can all see that you are not misquoting someone, please?

reply from: yoda

Ah yes, now I recognize your style. Welcome back, concernedparent.
We've been wondering what happened to you.

reply from: yoda

No, cp, I don't need to do that, I was pointing out that she was using both religious and secular concepts as if they were the same thing.
And I didn't use the term "murder", btw.

reply from: Faramir

The concept of redemption is a religious one, and it has nothing to do with the secular concept of being a murderer. One may be forgiven for everything in their past, and redeemed according to orthodox Christian theology, but that does not change the physical facts of one's past in any way. One who has robbed is still a robber, and one who has killed is still a killer. They are just forgiven robbers and killers.
So one who has robbed but stopped robbing is a robber just like a robber who continues to rob?
I know people who smoked and then quit but are now ex-smokers.
Carole is NOT a killer. It's disgusting that you would imply such a thing.

reply from: Faramir

No, cp, I don't need to do that, I was pointing out that she was using both religious and secular concepts as if they were the same thing.
And I didn't use the term "murder", btw.
I have not seen "concerned parents" posts so I don't know whether to be flattered or insulted by your case of mistaken identity. The name rings a bell, and I think I have seen it on another board I frequent, where I am not "concerned parent" there either.
You are the most suspicious person I think I've ever encountered, with the exception of some very disturbed pro aborts.
Now I'm wondering what you are hiding and whether you are "one of them."
But I've got my eye on you now. If your pretense of being a not-very-bright prolifer is some kind of ruse to make the movement look bad, your days are numbered. I'll be watching you.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, pretty much so:
robĀ·ber noun Definition: somebody who robs: somebody who commits robbery
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861705693 [/a] So, as you can see the noun form "robber" is not a moral condemnation so much as it is a statement of fact that one has "robbed". That's just how our language works.
Adding the prefix "ex" indicates that someone has stopped the activity being indicated. But it does not mean that they never did it. So, it just adds to the information being presented.
That's not for me to say. And if it's disgusting to you, I'm glad to hear it. It should be.
So you're saying she's what..... an "ex-killer"?

reply from: yoda

Yeah, okay cp...... let's watch each other, okay? That way we can compare notes.

reply from: Faramir

I'm saying that it's wrong to be browbeating a prolifer who had an abortion.

reply from: Faramir

Yeah, okay cp...... let's watch each other, okay? That way we can compare notes.
I could prove I'm not cp in one or two PMs, but it might be fun to let this play out.

reply from: sheri

Yoda, are you serious? you read his ranting before did you not?
And why shouldCM be left to defend herself? Silence is omission. I am not just defending her i am defending anyone in the same position she is in. This is not the prolife stand to take, it is not our place to label those who have aborted and repented.
If fboy wants to clear things up why not get after him to tell CM she is a prolifer on par with the rest of us.

reply from: lukesmom

Agreed! Abortion for me personally: There, but for the grace of God, go I.

reply from: Faramir

Agreed! Abortion for me personally: There, but for the grace of God, go I.
That's how I see it.
We're all responsible, and all of us could have been in an abortion situation, and none of us is in a position to pass judgement.
And standing by watching others throw stones, becaus that's "their style," is to give support to the stoners.

reply from: sander

Can you please explain how?
I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt I would never have found myself in an abortion situation.
I was asked with my last two pregnancies, and I could have cheerfully slapped that doctor upside his head for even suggesting such a thing!

reply from: lukesmom

Sander, 5 yrs ago, I would have answered as you did. Then 5 yrs ago this month I was told my baby was going to die. Even on this board prolifers don't "argue" about the "hard" cases. No one thinks a fatal prenatal diagnosis will happen to them and I am aware that in the grand scheme of things abortions for medical reasons are the minority but they do happen every day unfortunantly. My experience has taught me that "There, for the grace of God, go I". Very, very few parents actually know what they will do when they are faced with the "hard case".

reply from: joe

Let me understand you clearly. You say don't pass judgment on the most gruesome act a human can commit? So according to this...we should accept all serial killers, child molesters, rapists, etc. etc. We cannot judge such acts as evil and let them go on the street with love?
All principals that apply to the born must apply to the unborn. If you do not stay consistent then you are a flat out liar and hypocrite.
Carolemarie denies the holocaust, carolemarie denies it is murder, carolemarie loves the killer rather than the victim.
You Faramir with your self righteous rhetoric are guilty of dehumanizing the unborn that God has created. The most innocent and pure.
Simple enough?

reply from: faithman

SSSSSSOOOOOO we are to let all murderers go free? No one should be held accountable for their actions? If someone kills a born child, and then says OOOOPPPPS, but everything is OK, I prayed a Jesus prayer and I get a free walk, everyone would be OK with that? You so conveniantly ignore all the self justification, all the double speak, all the borthead rhetoric to tone down the act of killing. In one post she says she has no regrets then turns around and says she has them? You get to unjustly judge me, twist my words to say something I never did and then want to call me judgemental? You guys are not "nice" at all, and your mercy is cruel and disgusting. How dare you pervert what I have said. How dare you totally dishonor the memory of the true victim by denying them justice in order to exstend false mercy to the child killer. You have a right to your opinion, but you do not have the right to falsely accuse me of the very things you are guilty of. I have condemned no one. I have merely taken them at there word. If they fess up to killing children, that most assuredly makes them a baby killer, and a murderer. And though forgiven, will be until the day they leave this planet. Lets just tell all the families that have lost loved ones to killers that they can not call murderers murderers anymore, because the killers have mumbled a prayer. If you do not have the courage to see how absurd that is, then how in the world are we going to ever establish justice for the womb child? If murderers of the born deserve to be brought to justice, the those who kill the pre-born deserve exactly the same. And if they don't, you agree with planned parenthood that the womb child is a second class citizen that deserves no consideration at all. You can't have it both ways.

reply from: Faramir

Let me understand you clearly. You say don't pass judgment on the most gruesome act a human can commit? So according to this...we should accept all serial killers, child molesters, rapists, etc. etc. We cannot judge such acts as evil and let them go on the street with love?
All principals that apply to the born must apply to the unborn. If you do not stay consistent then you are a flat out liar and hypocrite.
Carolemarie denies the holocaust, carolemarie denies it is murder, carolemarie loves the killer rather than the victim.
You Faramir with your self righteous rhetoric are guilty of dehumanizing the unborn that God has created. The most innocent and pure.
Simple enough?
Do you think Carolemarie should be executed?
What punishment should she be given?
In what way does she deny the holocaust?
I'm still not getting where you and faithman are coming from in her regard.
What does she need to do?

reply from: Faramir

Can you please explain how?
I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt I would never have found myself in an abortion situation.
I was asked with my last two pregnancies, and I could have cheerfully slapped that doctor upside his head for even suggesting such a thing!
If you had been in similar circumstances, if you had not been educated, if you had been raped as a teenager and had no loving home to go to, if you were raised in a bad home and forced into prostitution and got pregnant, if you had not had the blessings and privileges you have now, you could have been in a situation where you might have been tempted to choose abortion.

reply from: faithman

The concept of redemption is a religious one, and it has nothing to do with the secular concept of being a murderer. One may be forgiven for everything in their past, and redeemed according to orthodox Christian theology, but that does not change the physical facts of one's past in any way. One who has robbed is still a robber, and one who has killed is still a killer. They are just forgiven robbers and killers.
So one who has robbed but stopped robbing is a robber just like a robber who continues to rob?
I know people who smoked and then quit but are now ex-smokers.
Carole is NOT a killer. It's disgusting that you would imply such a thing.
If you rob and are caught you would be a convicted criminal for ther rest of your life. What is disgusting is your attitude towards the womb child. We have a person who has confessed to killing children. In any court, they would be considered a confessed killer. That would carry thew out their life time. But you want to call me disgusting because I take them at their word, and properly identify them as a murderer? So tell us what you call someone who has killed a womb child? Just because jew murder was legal in germany, we can't call the holocost murder? Just because owning human beings was legal we can't call killing slaves murder? You want to equate killing innocent children to smoking cigaretts, and have the audasity to call me disgusting?

reply from: Faramir

So we should label Carolmarie as a murderer?
Even if she had a legal abortion? Even if she didn't understand she was killing a child? Even if the US governement said it's good to do? Even if our contraception and abortion culture said it's a good thing to do?
I thought "murder" was a legal concept. If she's a murderer why haven't you called the police and had her thrown in jail? What kind of person are you for letting a murderer roam the streets?

reply from: Faramir

The concept of redemption is a religious one, and it has nothing to do with the secular concept of being a murderer. One may be forgiven for everything in their past, and redeemed according to orthodox Christian theology, but that does not change the physical facts of one's past in any way. One who has robbed is still a robber, and one who has killed is still a killer. They are just forgiven robbers and killers.
So one who has robbed but stopped robbing is a robber just like a robber who continues to rob?
I know people who smoked and then quit but are now ex-smokers.
Carole is NOT a killer. It's disgusting that you would imply such a thing.
If you rob and are caught you would be a convicted criminal for ther rest of your life. What is disgusting is your attitude towards the womb child. We have a person who has confessed to killing children. In any court, they would be considered a confessed killer. That would carry thew out their life time. But you want to call me disgusting because I take them at their word, and properly identify them as a murderer? So tell us what you call someone who has killed a womb child? Just because jew murder was legal in germany, we can't call the holocost murder? Just because owning human beings was legal we can't call killing slaves murder? You want to equate killing innocent children to smoking cigaretts, and have the audasity to call me disgusting?
My attitude towards the "womb child" is that it should not be killed. There is no circumstance where abortion is acceptable. It is a grave injustice.
Your interest is not in the womb child when you use abusive and demeaning rhetoric with Carolemarie.
Your interest is in being God, judge, jury, and executioner. It's not good enough for you that she is sorry and has the same concern as the rest of us about sparing the unborn. You want to make sure she pays her debt, even though she owes no debt to society, since she had a LEGAL abortion, and owes no debt to God, since she was forgiven, and apparently you get your jollies by beating her up whenever you have the opportunity.
She most definately is NOT a killer. It is obscene to label her as such.

reply from: joe

Equate unborn life to born life. All life belongs to God.
Forgiveness and mercy follow true repentance.

reply from: Faramir

Equate unborn life to born life. All life belongs to God.
Forgiveness and mercy follow true repentance.
I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt and presume she has made her peace with God. It's none of my business anyway. She says she's prolife. She does not support abortion. She even is actively trying to prevent abortion. I'm taking her at her word that she's prolife, and she does not need any judgement or condemnation from me.
Some have PMd me and said she can speak for herself, or that others support her privately, or to ignore the criticisms of her, etc., but it's bigger than just this one person, and she is representative of millions of women who themselves are victims of a culture that LIED to them, so I won't just stand by and watch her being verbally stoned, and I don't think anyone else should turn the other way either.

reply from: lukesmom

I have lived in grief for 5 years now due to the death of my son. I can't imagine the additional pain of regret. I doubt that any punishment given to parents who have aborted and then learned the truth of their action, pales to the pain they already live with.
I am sick of this relentless attack. Carole (and others like her) doesn't HAVE to try to help others with her story. Carole doesn't have to come here and be attacked with every post. Sure, it is fine to disagree and to debate but you so called christiabs who jab and poke and name call her every chance you get makes me want to vomit. Her courage in facing you AND keeping her composure shows what kind of person she is compared to those who get their kicks out of attacking her. Yes, this board and the prolife movement is about saving the unborn. Yes, you all do great "works" in trying to accomplish this. Is attacking one repentant women furthering the cause of the unborn? No, instead it shows a hardness and nastiness in yourself.
Now I have to stop. Diagnosis day is close and I am too emotional for this right now...

reply from: joe

This is the garbage that allowed millions of unborn children get slaughtered in this country.
Do we need to rub your nose in the blood of the unborn to realize the magnitude of this act?
I can assure you this is about honoring the unborn, it has nothing to do with a personal vendetta.
Go wash your blood stained hands, Faramir.

reply from: faithman

It became our business when she posted it here on this forum. She point blank dishonored the personhood of the womb child by saying killing them is not murder, while she posted at another site that she believed that abortion is murder. She point blank said on this forum that she had no regrets. She has used pro-abort lingo to justify her "youthful mistake". I can understand you double speaking birds focking together. So now you are going to join the willingly ignorant ion condemning a pure pro-life stance. Go figure....... And if her crap is supose to be between her and God, that is excatly where she should have kept it, insted of flaunting her dirty ploomers as a badge of honor.

reply from: carolemarie

You said the Malachi poster changed your mind about abortion.
It did, in that it made me so mad I decided to prove that it was faked and researched myself into a prolife position. That took an entire year....
I think you have better results with live baby pictures, window to the womb videos rather than gore.

reply from: Faramir

"Murder" is a legal term, and since abortion is legal it is not murder, so she did not commit murder, but if you are convinced she did, why haven't you called the cops?
You do not take into consideration that the law and our culture has LIED to millions of women and given them permission and encouragement to abort.
And where does she say she does not regret her abortion?
Mabye her words have been taken out of context or misinterpreted? I'm judging her by her most recent posts.
I have known a lot of prolifers in my day, but I never ran into any characters like two on this board who are so intent upon humiliating and beating down people who are arguably victims of abortion as well.
Does anyone here respect Priests for Life? Is that their tactic too? Or are they loving, forgiving, and accepting of the post-abortive woman?

reply from: joe

I am sorry for your pain, it is not my intention to hurt anyone.
As a Christian I will not be guilty of this holocaust. I will not sit by as "pro-life advocates" dishonor the angels in the womb.
I will defend the unborn as I would defend Jesus in the womb.

reply from: joe

Once again pro-choice rhetoric.
Were the Jews murdered in the Holocaust?
So the Jews should have called the cops?
You ignored it once.

reply from: Faramir

I am sorry for your pain, it is not my intention to hurt anyone.
As a Christian I will not be guilty of this holocaust. I will not sit by as "pro-life advocates" dishonor the angels in the womb.
I will defend the unborn as I would defend Jesus in the womb.
How does beating up women serve Jesus?
In case you haven't noticed, Carolemarie has already had her abortions. My hope is that the souls of her children are in God's hands, and if so, they have they have forgiven their mother and wait to be reconciled with her.
You no longer need to defend her "womb children."
Degrading and demeaning her will not bring her children back.

reply from: Faramir

Once again pro-choice rhetoric.
Were the Jews murdered in the Holocaust?
So the Jews should have called the cops?
You ignored it once.
I think you have ignored MY question.
Have you called the police?
If you think she is a murderer, then it is your civic and moral duty to report her to the authorities.

reply from: joe

Learn your history, Faramir.

reply from: lukesmom

http://www.catholicexchange.com/node/69463

The Edge

Fr. Frank Pavone
Will Women Go To Jail For Abortions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
February 1, 2008
Question: "When abortion becomes illegal again, are we going to start throwing all the women who have abortions into jail?"
Answer: No. The people who should go to jail in that case are the abortionists.
This particular question will be raised more and more as we to come closer to restoring protection to the unborn. The question is actually part of the well-planned public relations attack that abortion advocates always try to make on us in the pro-life movement. We are anti-woman, after all. Isn't that the only logical reason why we would oppose abortion in the first place? That's what they want the public to believe.
Yet the fact is that to be pro-life is to be pro-woman. We don't say love the baby and forget about the mother. Rather, we ask, Why can't we love them both? This is not just true when abortion is legal. It's also true when it's illegal.
The pro-life movement is not out to punish women. Our goal, instead, is to stop child-killing. What would throwing women in jail do to accomplish that goal? Their children have already died, yet the abortionist goes on killing hundreds and thousands of others. It makes far more sense to put the abortionist in jail, so that he or she can no longer kill children.
Moreover, the woman who gets an illegal abortion is the best source of information and evidence needed to convict the abortionist. If she feared prosecution, she would never admit to the abortion, which would make it harder to find the abortionist.
This doesn't excuse the woman's wrongdoing; rather, it is the same principle by which the state grants immunity to a small-time drug user in exchange for information leading to a big-time drug dealer.
This approach takes nothing away from the biological fact that abortion destroys a human life, nor from the moral fact that the life taken is of the same value as any born person. But consider how the law approaches the killing of born people. Murder is not the same as homicide, which is not the same as manslaughter. Factors of premeditation, heat of passion, ignorance, negligence, and cooperation in the action of someone else are all taken into account in order to assess as fairly as possible how much responsibility the individual actually had.
Consider these words from someone who had an abortion: "I really had no idea of what I was doing. I was completely ignorant about fetal development. I just wanted to get out of the crisis I was in." More than any other form of killing, abortion is accompanied by pressure and ignorance. If we were going to start prosecuting women, we would actually end up prosecuting more boyfriends and parents.
But in fact, we conduct a ministry of healing, not of punishment. We want to bring those who have been involved in abortions to the freedom, forgiveness, and peace of Christ. That's how we answer what will be a more and more common question.

reply from: joe

Let me see:
By dehumanizing the unborn you are sending a clear message to the vulnerable that this act is acceptable. They will justify this act and commit the murder of an innocent human being because "it ain't as bad".
You are promoting abortion without even realizing it, that is the price of your "niceness" doctrine.

reply from: Faramir

Learn your history, Faramir.
I don't get your point.
If you think she's a murderer then you should call the police. Anything less is to spit on her deceased womb children.
You can't have it both ways.

reply from: Faramir

Let me see:
By dehumanizing the unborn you are sending a clear message to the vulnerable that this act is acceptable. They will justify this act and commit the murder of an innocent human being because "it ain't as bad".
You are promoting abortion without even realizing it, that is the price of your "niceness" doctrine.
I have never once dehmanized the unborn. I have just not dehumanized those who have aborted, either.

reply from: joe

You could not have called the cops to save the Jews.
You cannot call the cops to save the unborn.

reply from: Faramir

You could not have called the cops to save the Jews.
You cannot call the cops to save the unborn.
You can and should call the police after a murder is committed. You say she murdered. Murder is against the law. Turn her in.

reply from: joe

Thats right Faramir, the unborn were "interrupted". Sorry for not understanding your true meaning.

reply from: joe

You could not have called the cops to save the Jews.
You cannot call the cops to save the unborn.
You can and should call the police after a murder is committed. You say she murdered. Murder is against the law. Turn her in.
My point is obvious, your lack of respect for the unborn is obvious.

reply from: Faramir

You could not have called the cops to save the Jews.
You cannot call the cops to save the unborn.
You can and should call the police after a murder is committed. You say she murdered. Murder is against the law. Turn her in.
My point is obvious, your lack of respect for the unborn is obvious.
I don't think so, Joe.
I think you are very confused.
You somehow think that since I don't share your disrespect of certain women, that I don't respect the unborn.
I think I'm talking to a brick wall, though. You're not getting it.
Carry on with your self-righteous crusade. Continue making members of this site and prolifers look like lunatics, if you feel called to do that.
And don't forget that murder is a crime and should be reported. Failure to report a crime is to be complicit.

reply from: joe

Continue caring more about our image instead of the innocent human life. Continue having the pro-choice advocates laugh as we swallow their rhetoric. Continue making us seem like liars by denying that the unborn are indeed human life that deserve honor and protection.
Yes CP, continue your political agenda that allowed the slaughter of 50 million lives. I will not stand by and allow the defenseless to be dishonored by you.
You are not "getting it". This is human life...........nothing less.

reply from: Teresa18

I've seen this argument go on long enough. Carole has been harassed, and I have sat there and watched it thinking it best to just stay out. I know what Carole must be feeling. I was attacked repeatedly on another board for my conservative beliefs, and the other two "conservatives" rarely stepped in. It hurt. I give her credit for staying here. Carole already feels bad enough about her two abortions as it is. Continually harrasing her could lead to severe depression which could in turn lead to suicide. I know what that feels like, as I've suffered loneliness and severe depression, a good part due to my belief in staying true to Christ. If she had to repeat her past, you know those two children would be alive. That tells me she regrets her abortions. She knows she sinned against the Lord. She has turned to him, sought his forgiveness, and spent the last decade fighting to save babies who have been aborted.
FMan and Joe, we know that killing a born child is the moral equivalent of killing an unborn child. However, I get the feeling by your posts that you will not be satisfied until Carole "pays" by going to prison. That's not going to happen. The government can't put people in jail for doing something legal which it approves of. Not to mention, Carole and many other women were/are mislead by the legality, acceptance, and lies about abortion in our culture. I do not believe we will end abortion if we say that women who abort will be tossed in prison. That will horrify middle Americans and many in the pro-life movement as well. It will also be harder than punishing a woman who kills a born child because there will have to be definite proof the woman was pregnant and deliberately killed her child, not had a miscarriage. If a woman has complications due to abortion, she will be scared to go to the doctor for fear of being reported and may die. The best approach is to take all the money going to Planned Parenthood/abortion industry and use it to help pregnant women, and then go after the doctors doing abortions, as was done pre Roe vs. Wade.
All harrassing this post-abortive woman does is make pro-lifers look extreme. Women who feel guilty following an abortion won't know where to turn if they think pro-lifers won't accept them. We all know how pro-aborts feel about women who regret their abortions. Arguing amongst ourselves only provides entertainment and fodder for the pro-aborts. It won't save unborn children, which is the purpose of this forum.

reply from: Faramir

Thank you Teresa18. You said exactly what I've been trying to say, but you said it a whole lot better.

reply from: Teresa18

Faramir is not CP. I was reading the board not logged in and noticed that Vexing called Faramir "Vernon". This means she knew him from another forum. He admitted to be "Vernon". He posted at Pro Choice Talk under that name. His posts were pro-life and pro-Catholic. I know because I used to read that board.

reply from: Teresa18

Lukesmom, I think you will find that many here actually don't support abortion in the hard cases. I know I don't born child should be killed for having an illness or disability, so why should an unborn child? A person is a person whether in or out of the womb.

reply from: Faramir

Darn, you outed me. And I was having some fun with Yoda and his suspicions.
I have over 12,000 posts on that board and you would search in vain for one that was not prolife. But if you look hard enough, you could find some posts that are stupid or out of line in some way.
I have done my share of goofing off there and making nonsense posts in the other-than-abortion forums that we have there. There is an aspect of that board that is more like a "social club." But there is also a forum strictly for abortion, and I have posted in that forum off and on for over three years and have always been on the prolfe side, and have never been Concerned Parent.

reply from: joe

This has nothing to do with Carole, personally. It is with her disrespect for the unborn.
She called these attacks on herself by denying that this is equivalent to the German Holocaust. She said it, she dishonored the 50 million dead.
She had plenty of opportunities to calm the storm yet she let it persist.
Let her respect the unborn then I will respect her.

reply from: Faramir

If she didn't accept YOUR terms that doesn't mean she was disrespting the unborn.

reply from: joe

Her call. If she does not equate unborn life to born life....I will defend the most innocent and pure, each and every time I see it.
They are the least among us, the most victimized among us yet the most pure.
That is my dedication to the unborn.
That is my love for the unborn.

reply from: Faramir

Her call. If she does not equate unborn life to born life....I will defend the most innocent and pure, each and every time I see it.
They are the least among us, the most victimized among us yet the most pure.
That is my dedication to the unborn.
That is my love for the unborn.
Cool, but it woundn't hurt to spare some love for the born as well.

reply from: joe

Her call. If she does not equate unborn life to born life....I will defend the most innocent and pure, each and every time I see it.
They are the least among us, the most victimized among us yet the most pure.
That is my dedication to the unborn.
That is my love for the unborn.
Cool, but it woundn't hurt to spare some love for the born as well.
Agreed.

reply from: yoda

I'm saying that it's wrong to be browbeating a prolifer who had an abortion.
That's not much of an answer, is it? Usually, it's the proaborts who dodge questions around here.
If you didn't want an answer to that question, why did you ask it? And why are you dodging the issue now?

reply from: yoda

That's not why I'm here. I'm here to defend unborn babies, not other prolifers who have the ability to speak for themselves. Unborn babies do not have that ability, so I'm here to speak for them. If you feel called to defend Carole or anyone else, then follow your conscience.
I'm not interested in rating the other prolifers here. What opinions I have on that subject are not relevant to the goal of saving babies, in fact I think it is a distraction to engage in this kind of conversation.
This kind of infighting can only help the cause of the proaborts. Anyone who doesn't like what FMan or Carole has to say can put them on ignore and go on about the business of saving babies. I've had to put a couple of prolifers on ignore, and it's done wonders for my ability to concentrate on the goal of speaking out for, and defending babies.
I will speak out for the babies, and stay out of the feuds as best I can, thank you.

reply from: yoda

Each of us has to make that judgment call on our own, and we ought to do it without disrespecting the judgment of others seeking the same goal of saving babies, IMO.

reply from: yoda

Father Pavone is a respected prolifer who has done much for the cause. His opinion, however, is just that.
To say that one who hires a killer to kill a born person deserves punishment, but one who hires a killer to kill an unborn person does not is to discriminate against the unborn. And it is not a discrimination that serves our cause, in fact it does just the opposite.
If we can justify that discrimination, then we cannot condemn the discrimination shown by the proaborts towards the unborn's moral right to life. In other words, if we discriminate against them, how can we tell anyone else not to?

reply from: yoda

You have a legal, technical point on your side. However, your refusal to recognize the parallel between killing the unborn and killing the Jews makes that point rather irrelevant.

reply from: yoda

It has gone on more than long enough. And I thought it had kind of died down, until Faramir stirred the pot recently. That's the point I would make here, that those who are posting "in defense" are just as much to blame for the continuation of this infighting as those who are on the other side.
We have an ignore function that is vastly underutilized. But if someone feels an obligation to respond to a particular statement, why on earth is it so hard to quote that statement and respond to it specifically, rather than wait until later and launch a general attack on what "they said"? We can squawk and hassle all day long about "general feelings", and do no good in the end. If we're going to be at each other's throats, why not at least do it without all the histrionics and character attacks? What ever happened to attacking the words, and not the speaker?

reply from: yoda

I read it now, and have seen posts there under that name. None of that, however, proves anything in particular. Nor does it really matter, in the end. What matters to me is that a "newbie" is injecting him/herself into matters as if he/she had a history here, and stirring up things best left alone.
But I'm patient, I'll wait for a year or two and see if Faramir decides to use the same vigor to defend babies that has been used to stir up the old feud here.

reply from: Faramir

It has gone on more than long enough. And I thought it had kind of died down, until Faramir stirred the pot recently. That's the point I would make here, that those who are posting "in defense" are just as much to blame for the continuation of this infighting as those who are on the other side.
We have an ignore function that is vastly underutilized. But if someone feels an obligation to respond to a particular statement, why on earth is it so hard to quote that statement and respond to it specifically, rather than wait until later and launch a general attack on what "they said"? We can squawk and hassle all day long about "general feelings", and do no good in the end. If we're going to be at each other's throats, why not at least do it without all the histrionics and character attacks? What ever happened to attacking the words, and not the speaker?
Please don't blame me for "stirring the pot" and dredging up the past. Since I have been here, I have seen several digs aimed at Carole, and I suspect that goes on regularly. Mabye there were some big blow ups in the past, but apparently it's not over, and she is still being harrassed.
She has been treated disgracefuly and I'm appalled you could just look the other way. Mabye it takes a newbie to see the trees through the forest.

reply from: Faramir

You have a legal, technical point on your side. However, your refusal to recognize the parallel between killing the unborn and killing the Jews makes that point rather irrelevant.
I do see the parallel and have used that illustration myself many times.
But I won't use that parallel as an excuse to beat up a post abortive woman, and I don't think anyone else should.
Do you?

reply from: Faramir

Father Pavone is a respected prolifer who has done much for the cause. His opinion, however, is just that.
To say that one who hires a killer to kill a born person deserves punishment, but one who hires a killer to kill an unborn person does not is to discriminate against the unborn. And it is not a discrimination that serves our cause, in fact it does just the opposite.
If we can justify that discrimination, then we cannot condemn the discrimination shown by the proaborts towards the unborn's moral right to life. In other words, if we discriminate against them, how can we tell anyone else not to?
But we have people here who seem to think that the post abortive woman in this legal abortion culture we have, also need to be punished severely.
Many of these women are not hiring hit men to kill their children. Many do not fully grasp what they are doing, or have been decieved, or pressured into doing it, and that makes them less culpable.

reply from: faithman

Father Pavone is a respected prolifer who has done much for the cause. His opinion, however, is just that.
To say that one who hires a killer to kill a born person deserves punishment, but one who hires a killer to kill an unborn person does not is to discriminate against the unborn. And it is not a discrimination that serves our cause, in fact it does just the opposite.
If we can justify that discrimination, then we cannot condemn the discrimination shown by the proaborts towards the unborn's moral right to life. In other words, if we discriminate against them, how can we tell anyone else not to?
But we have people here who seem to think that the post abortive woman in this legal abortion culture we have, also need to be punished severely.
Many of these women are not hiring hit men to kill their children. Many do not fully grasp what they are doing, or have been decieved, or pressured into doing it, and that makes them less culpable.
You are just SSSSOOOOO willingly stupid and ignorant. I am beating up no one. This would end right now,. if everyone would simply ackowlage that the preborn child deserves the same justice as the one who is born. Even if the law does not provide that justice now, if the post abortive are truely repentant, and are truely pro-life, then for the sake of the child that was killed they would admit to being murderers, and they themselves would say they deserve the same punishment by sociaty as any other who has destroyed Human life. That is not beating up on anyone, that is just plane blind justice. A concept that is lost on the idiots on this forum who can not put emotions aside long enough to think logicly. Every one of these women have hired an abortionist to kill their child. I could care less what excuse they use. That is taken into consideration at sentancing, not in convicting. If an abortionist is not a hired hit man assasin of the womb child, tell us oh wise one, what are they? I would call the money to kill children blood money. Give us the benifit of your self proclaimed superior intelect, what do you call it ? You are tryiong to defend the indefencible. How in the world can we demand justice for the born when we SSSSSOOOOOO pervert justice for the pre-born? All I am asking is for a little honesty. You are a coward , for you do not have the courage to look at this with any objectivity, and all you are trying to do is promote yourself as a nice guy. Well you are not nice. You are a gutless wounder who has become the enemy of the womb child with your pathetic, peverted, and cruel mercy for the guilty, at the exspence of justice for the innocent. That kind of sick mercy comes at just too high a price.

reply from: yoda

It's not a matter of "blame", it's a simple fact. Want me to copy and paste the post of yours where you stirred it up?
See now there's another "unhelpful" general statement. If you want to complain over someone's "treatment", why not quote the "disgraceful" words with the quote function? This generalization is just dragging us deeper and deeper...... into a pit of petty squabbling.
As to my actions, they are none of your business. If and when you are here long enough to understand the dynamics of the situation, then I may begin to take your "generalized opinions" seriously. Until then, take care of your own postings and leave mine out, would you please?

reply from: yoda

General attacks are generally childish. You sound like a school kid on a playground shouting at his opponents. Grow up, use the quote button or the ignore function.

reply from: yoda

Then if that is so, don't you think a judge and a jury would take that into consideration? Don't many killers of born people walk free? Don't judges and juries use their wide latitude to make exceptions?
We don't have retroactive justice in this country, so past abortions can't be brought up even after Roe is overturned. But when it is overturned, then we will see whether or not most prolifers really consider the unborn to be the moral equal to the born. And sadly, I'm afraid many do not..... thus they are open to the charge of hypocrisy.

reply from: carolemarie

It is rather a moot point, since the vast majority of people don't agree with the premise to be prolife we must jail women who obtain abortions.
Right now, it would be nice to just see abortion on demand made against the law.

reply from: Faramir

This has a lot to do with the point that been made.
We can excuse to a degree women who have had abortions, because the law and our culture have deceived them, and many more people than the women who aborted are responsible for their abortions.
I haven't commented about punishment if and when abortion becomes illegal. I've been referring to the punishment some want to inflict on post (legal) abortive women.

reply from: faithman

This would end right now,. if everyone would simply ackowlage that the preborn child deserves the same justice as the one who is born. Even if the law does not provide that justice now, if the post abortive are truely repentant, and are truely pro-life, then for the sake of the child that was killed they would admit to being murderers, and they themselves would say they deserve the same punishment by sociaty as any other who has destroyed Human life. That is not beating up on anyone, that is just plane blind justice.

reply from: faithman

With what kind of penalty for the participants? Nothing? What a toothless law. What if the majority of "pro-lifers" said car jackers should get a free walk? would that make it just , just because the majority says so? A murderer is a murderer no matter the gender, no matter the faith, no matter if the victim is born, or preborn, and those who have done the deed are to full of conflict of intrest to even dare think that what they have to say should have any wieght on this issue. Once again, that is not emotionalism, that is just plain blind justice. If one wants special consideration based on gender or faith, then justice is perverted, and the innocent suffer. That is just simple emotionless fact.

reply from: joe

Is that so hard to understand? Faramir.

reply from: Faramir

Society, which encourages and applauds abortion, is guilty for deceiving women. The repentent aborter has been sinned against as much as she has sinned, maybe moreso.
Many of these women are children themselves, who don't have a clue. Many of them are children on an emotional level.
Why not limit your punishment interests for the time when it would be appropriate--AFTER abortion is illegal.
Abortion is legal. That is a sad fact and that's why this board exists and that's why there is such thing as a "prolifer." So there is no point in worrying about punishment being meted out to those who haven't broken the law, and who have instead been let down by the law.
May I ask you to picture it from the perspective of the aborted. If you are a soul in heaven who was the victim of abortion, what justice would you demand? What would you want to happen to your mother?
And what about the fathers? They might be responsible for pressuring the woman to have an abortion, yet they go free, it seems.

reply from: carolemarie

With what kind of penalty for the participants? Nothing? What a toothless law. What if the majority of "pro-lifers" said car jackers should get a free walk? would that make it just , just because the majority says so? A murderer is a murderer no matter the gender, no matter the faith, no matter if the victim is born, or preborn, and those who have done the deed are to full of conflict of intrest to even dare think that what they have to say should have any wieght on this issue. Once again, that is not emotionalism, that is just plain blind justice. If one wants special consideration based on gender or faith, then justice is perverted, and the innocent suffer. That is just simple emotionless fact.
HMMM Like it was before abortion was legalized. The provider went to jail, not the woman.

reply from: faithman

Society, which encourages and applauds abortion, is guilty for deceiving women. The repentent aborter has been sinned against as much as she has sinned, maybe moreso.
Many of these women are children themselves, who don't have a clue. Many of them are children on an emotional level.
Why not limit your punishment interests for the time when it would be appropriate--AFTER abortion is illegal.
Abortion is legal. That is a sad fact and that's why this board exists and that's why there is such thing as a "prolifer." So there is no point in worrying about punishment being meted out to those who haven't broken the law, and who have instead been let down by the law.
May I ask you to picture it from the perspective of the aborted. If you are a soul in heaven who was the victim of abortion, what justice would you demand? What would you want to happen to your mother?
And what about the fathers? They might be responsible for pressuring the woman to have an abortion, yet they go free, it seems.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

reply from: faithman

With what kind of penalty for the participants? Nothing? What a toothless law. What if the majority of "pro-lifers" said car jackers should get a free walk? would that make it just , just because the majority says so? A murderer is a murderer no matter the gender, no matter the faith, no matter if the victim is born, or preborn, and those who have done the deed are to full of conflict of intrest to even dare think that what they have to say should have any wieght on this issue. Once again, that is not emotionalism, that is just plain blind justice. If one wants special consideration based on gender or faith, then justice is perverted, and the innocent suffer. That is just simple emotionless fact.
HMMM Like it was before abortion was legalized. The provider went to jail, not the woman.
SSSSSOOOO you advocate a totally perverted justice based on gender? But of course some one who has killed a few would take such a position.

reply from: carolemarie

If you want to honor the babies who have died, then make it against the law to perform an abortion and they will not die anymore.

reply from: carolemarie

If everyone would agree with you then this would end. How generous of you to offer us the option of agreeing with you.
Can't agree with you because you are wrong.

reply from: joe

If everyone would agree with you then this would end. How generous of you to offer us the option of agreeing with you.
Can't agree with you because you are wrong.
How is this repentance???

reply from: faithman

How can we make it against the law when you want to give the main player a free walk with not penalty? Only a complete moron would not see the total injustice of such a law.

reply from: faithman

If everyone would agree with you then this would end. How generous of you to offer us the option of agreeing with you.
Can't agree with you because you are wrong.
SSSSSOOOOOO it is wrong to advocater the same justice for the womb child that the already born enjoys? Please explain how that is wrong? I thought pro-lifer already agred on that fact?

reply from: yoda

Two wrongs don't make a right, and they don't excuse a wrong. You can't remove the guilt of a killing from someone because they were "sinned against".
Electively killing innocent babies is always wrong, no matter what someone else does to you. You don't get "permission" to kill based on how much you were abused.
And you don't blame "society" for what you've done to an innocent baby.

reply from: sander

Whoa there fella...are you talking about personal responsibility? Wherever did you come up that concept?

reply from: Faramir

Two wrongs don't make a right, and they don't excuse a wrong. You can't remove the guilt of a killing from someone because they were "sinned against".
Electively killing innocent babies is always wrong, no matter what someone else does to you. You don't get "permission" to kill based on how much you were abused.
And you don't blame "society" for what you've done to an innocent baby.
So you would lock up a 13 year old girl who was pressured to abort by her father who raped her?
Do you think she should be given a life sentence or should be executed?

reply from: faithman

Two wrongs don't make a right, and they don't excuse a wrong. You can't remove the guilt of a killing from someone because they were "sinned against".
Electively killing innocent babies is always wrong, no matter what someone else does to you. You don't get "permission" to kill based on how much you were abused.
And you don't blame "society" for what you've done to an innocent baby.
So you would lock up a 13 year old girl who was pressured to abort by her father who raped her?
Do you think she should be given a life sentence or should be executed?
Gosh!!! another borthead trick. blur the issue with a hard case hypothetical. Number one duffis, the girl would be a minnor, and even under current law, the father is copable, and should be investigated for rape. We have girls now who kill their babies right after they are born. Wouldn't justice demand that those who kill the same child before it is born, meet the same penalty? Or is that just to hard for your hero nice guy brain to wrap around?

reply from: yoda

Durned if I know. That's crazy talk, isn't it?

reply from: yoda

I'm not in the business of writing criminal statutes, nor sentencing people.
That is best left to legislators and the court systems. What I advocate is that we give the unborn equal status with the born in the legislature and in the courts.
That way, every person charged with a crime can have their day in court, and be shown mercy if the court thinks it is deserved.
And of course, unborn babies are never given their "day in court" today... so that's what we ought to give them as soon as possible, IMO.

reply from: sander

Durned if I know. That's crazy talk, isn't it?
Yup...it's a foreign concept, that's for sure.
Back in the day, (wink wink), personal respsonibility was applauded and encouraged and you paid the price when you didn't take live by that principle.
NOW, kill the baby, play the victim, let the government solve all your problems.


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