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pro-aborts assure women clinics can be trusted

but then blame the women when they believe the lies

by: ProInformed

A testimony from an abortion industry employee (Luhra Tuvis):
"I was required to falsify the medical records. But not just that, related to that, I was required to lie to the women over the phone. And the way he'd explain it to me was, without coming right out and saying it, these are really third trimester abortions, but we're going to tell them they're only in the second trimester. They would say, well, I've already had a sonogram, and my bpd was 7.8 or 8.3 or whatever. He said, when they tell you that, don't turn them away as being too far along. Tell them to come in, and we'll do our own sonogram, and it will show they're not that far along. Tell them that sonogram reading is an art, not a science. He explained to me that the bpd is a measurement of the angle of the baby's head, where at that angle, the baby's head is roughly egg-shaped. The usual way that you measure the bpd is from the top of the egg to the bottom of the egg, which is at the widest point. But we measure it from side to side, at the narrowest point." from Celebrate Life Sept/Oct 1994 "Where is the Real Violence?"

reply from: 4given

WHAT ABORTION WORKERS SAY ABOUT ABORTION:
On Abortion ...
"In medical practice, there are few surgical procedures given so little attention and so underrated in its potential hazards as abortion. It is a commonly held view that complications are inevitable."
-- Warren Hern, Abortionist
"[The abortionists] get to go inflict pain on someone for five minutes ...
-- Charlotte Taft, Former Clinic Administrator
"No one ever says 'Thank you' to an abortionist."
-- Unidentified Abortionist
"Every woman ... has a trauma at destroying a pregnancy ... This is a part of her own life. When she destroys a pregnancy she is destroying herself."
-- Dr. Julius Fogel, Psychiatrist/OB who has performed over 20,000 abortions
"Even now I feel a little peculiar about it because as a physician I was trained to conserve life, and here I am destroying it."
-- Unidentified Abortionist
"If the abortion is well done, we don't have to watch the baby die. So we inject a salt solution. The result is like putting salt on a slug, but we don't have to watch it."
-- Dr. Russell Sacco, M.D.
"... [abortion] is still the dark side of medicine."
-- Morris Wortman, Abortionist
Democrat and Chronicle, July 5. 1992
"I guess I never realized I would find [performing abortions] as unpleasant as I do. I really don't enjoy it at all. It's not a rewarding thing to do ... [patients] look at you as an evil person who is deliberately putting them through a painful procedure ... it's their whole attitude that bothers me. I feel like a simple thank you is in order, instead of 'Why are you doing this to me?'"
-- New York Abortionist
The New York Times Magazine, January 18. 1998
"[Doing abortions] can make you feel bad ... No matter how pro-choice you are, it makes you feel low."
-- New York Abortionist
The New York Times Magazine, January 18. 1998
"The abortion clinics never accept any responsibility for complications. They just say it was not their fault. The concern is not the patient at this time. The concern is with taking care of the doctor and keeping his reputation and the clinic's [reputation] clean."
-- Carol Everett, Former Clinic Director and Owner
"You know that there is something alive in there that you're killing."
-- Unidentified Abortionist
In Necessity and Sorrow, Magna Denes, New York: Basic Books. lnc., 1976
"The sensations of dismemberment flow through the forceps like an electric current."
-- Dr. Warren Hern, Abortionist
Associations of Planned Parenthood Physicians meeting, San Diego, October 26, 1978
"It's a nasty, dirty, yucky thing and I always come home angry."
-- David Zbaraz, Abortionist
Washington Post, March 3, 1980
"In some ways it is very boring, these abortions -- the same thing day after day. In fact the nurses are excited about complications because it's something different."
-- A Director of Nursing at an abortion facility
In Necessity and Sorrow, Magna Denes, New York: Basic Books. Inc.. 1976
"An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun. It is dangerous to your life and health. It may make you sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it."
"Plan Your Children", Planned Parenthood pamphlet, 1962
"[The abortion procedure is] inherently negative. I don't think that anyone can say that abortion is right. It's a form of life ... This has to be killing ..."
-- New York Abortionist
Democrat and Chronicle, July 5, 1992
"[The governing force behind the abortion industry is] money. It's a very lucrative business. It is the largest unregulated industry in our nation."
-- Carol Everett, Former Clinic Director and Owner
http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/workers_say.htm

reply from: 4given

WHAT ABORTION WORKERS SAY:
On Abortionists ...
"[The few doctors willing to replace those who are retiring are] mostly physicians who have had difficulty establishing regular ob-gyn practices." Mentioning a clinic in Nebraska where a young doctor was brought in to replace an older one, "Out of his first six months of work, there are nine malpractice suits ... After it was apparent the guy was a klutz, they kept using him, and trying to cover for him, because they couldn't find another provider."
-- Robert Crist, Abortionist
St. Petersburg Times, June 3, 1990
"[Abortion is] the dirty work of our field. The sad truth is that the people who moonlight at the clinics are grade-B doctors. They're not the cream of the crop."
Unidentified Pro-abortion OB/GYN
The New York Times Magazine, January 18, 1998
"These guys are pitiful."
Charlotte Taft, Former Clinic Administator
Lime 5, Mark Crutcher
"In obstetrics and gynecology, the term abortionist is still a dirty word."
-- Joe Thompson, Retired Abortionist
South Bend Tribune, December 26, 1992
"Most physicians regard abortion as a stigmatized operation done by people who are otherwise incompetent and can't do anything else."
-- Warren Hern, Abortionist
American Medical News, September 5, 1994
"... abortion is still a very fringe practice. There aren't a lot of people who want to get into abortion provision ... And the ones that we do have applying to us for training often have very dodgy histories and backgrounds. And if you dig deep enough, you'll find a death or two or a malpractice suit somewhere along the line ..."
-- David Grundmann, Australia Abortionist
National Abortion Federation Risk Management Seminar, Seattle, WA, September 1993
"There's still the shame thing, even among people who are pro-choice ... We are still seen as dirty, even among our own people."
-- Diane Derzis, Abortion Clinic Administrator
Atlanta Joumal Constitution, May 16. 1993
"It's true that abortion providers are perceived as not very good doctors -- that they have no alternative so they do abortions, that they cannot earn a living any other way."
-- Richard Hausknecht, Abortionist
The New York Times Magazine, January 18, 1998
"If we see a doctor out there who's really hurting women, it's incumbent upon us to blow the whistle -- no matter what the outcome. But it's a real choice, because you could end up with someone worse -- or no doctor at all ..."
-- Ron Fitzsimmons, Director of National Coalition of Abortion Providers
Abortion Report, July 7, 1994
"[I am ] angry at the woman ... I have angry feelings at myself for feeling good about grasping the [head of the fetus], for feeling good about doing a technically good procedure which destroys a fetus, kills a baby."
-- Unidentified Abortionist
American Medical News, July 12, 1993

reply from: 4given

WHAT ABORTION WORKERS SAY:
On Deceit ...
"Sometimes we lied. A girl might ask what her baby was like as a cerlain point in pregnancy. Was it a baby yet? Even as early as twelve weeks a baby is totally formed, he has fingerprints, turns his head, fans his toes, feels pain. But we would say, 'It's not a baby yet. It's tissue, like a clot."
-- Kathy Sparks, former abortion clinic worker
"If a woman we were counseling expressed doubts about having an abortion, we would say whatever was necessary to persuade her to have the abortion immediately ... The abortion clinic that I managed was strictly a business operation ... We did not consider the well-being of the women who had abortions."
-- Judy W., Office Manager of a Texas abortion clinic
"It is extremely difficult to watch doctors lie, clinic workers cover up, and hear terrifying storles of women dragged out of clinics to die in cars on the way to the hospital without beginning to question the party line. I began to wonder if we were really caring for these women, or if we were just working for another corporation whose only interest was the bottom line."
Judith Fetrow, Former Planned Parenthood worker
"... we didn't do any real counseling. We answered only the questions the woman asked and tried not to 'rock the boat'. ... The counselor does try to determine the reason this woman wants the abortion. Not so much to help as to use the fear to reinforce the abortion decision."
-- Carol Everett, Former Clinic Director and Owner
"We only sold one product -- abortion and abortion only. We took whatever other ideas the pregnant woman had and used them to sell abortion... We effectively sold our product."
-- Carol Everett, Former Clinic Director and Owner
http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/workers_say.htm

reply from: 4given

WHAT ABORTION WORKERS SAY:
On Workers' Reactions ...
"It's difficult being in a profession where you have a hard time answerlng the questions that other people ask you about what you do ... you come to feel not so good about what you're doing even when you thought you were doing something wonderful."
-- Terry Beresford. Planned Parenthood
"The doctors would remove the fetus ... and then lay it on the table, where it would squirm until it died ... They all had perfect forms and shapes. I coudn't take it, no nurse could."
-- Former Planned Parenthood Director
American Medical News, July 12.1993
"I had gotten involved in abortion because I wanted to help. But instead, while sucking the child out of its mother I was also sucking out the mother's soul and leaving an empty shell, an empty tomb. I began to detest what I was doing. More than that I began to detest myself. I even entertained thoughts of suicide."
-- Beverly McMillan M.D., OB/GYN, former abortionist
"There are weary, grim moments when I think I cannot bear another basin of bloody remains, utter another kind phrase of reasurance ... 'How can you stand it?' even the clients ask. They see the machine, the strange instruments, the blood, the final strike that wipes away the promise of pregnancy. Sometimes I see that too. I watch a woman's swollen abdomen sink to softness in a few stuttering moments and my own belly flip-flops with sorrow."
-- Sallie Tisdale, Clinic Nurse
Harper's Magazine, October 1987
"Clinic workers have very mixed emotions about abortion. ... Clinic workers may say they support a woman's right to choose, but they will also say that they do not want to see tiny hands and tiny feet. They do not want to be faced with the consequences of their actions ... There is a great difference between the intellectual support of the woman's right to choose and the actual participation in the carnage of abortion. Because seeing body parts bothers the workers."
-- Judith Fetrow, Former clinic worker
"I am having difficulty with my feelings about late abortions also. More and more, I don't even know anymore if I believe in it. There is just so much pain."
-- Abortion Counselor
In Necessity and Sorrow, Magna Denes, New York: Basic Books, Inc., 1976
"[D&E abortions are] far more psychologically traumitizing for the doctors ... I can't do them anymore."
-- Head of Obstetrics/Philadelphia teaching hospital
Philadelphia Inquirer, July 18, 1993
"[I've seen women] who have just had an abortion ... lie in the recovery room and cry, 'I've just killed my baby. I've just killed my baby.' I don't know what to say to these women. Part of me thinks, 'Maybe they're right.'"
-- Abortion Nurse
American Medical News, July 12.1993
"We don't have real conversations. Sometimes the employees faint. Sometimes they throw up. Sometimes they have to leave the room ..."
-- Joy Davis, Clinic Manager
A clinic worker describes dreams in which she sees "aborted fetuses stare at [her] with ancient eyes asking, 'Why? Why did you do this to me?'"
American Medical News, July 12. 1993
"I have fetus dreams, we all do here: dreams of abortions one after the other; of buckets of blood splashed on the walls; trees full of crawling fetuses. I dreamed that two men grabbed me and began to drag me away, 'Let's do an abortion,' they said with a sickening leer, and I began to scream, plunged into a vision of sucking, scraping pain, of being spread and torn by impartial instruments that do only what they are bidden ..."
-- Clinic Nurse
Harper's Magazine, October 1978
"Two respondents described dreams which they had related to the procedure. Both described dreams of vomiting fetuses along with a sense of horror ... In general it appears that the more direct the physical and visual involvement the more stress experienced."
-- Warren Hern, Abortionist
Associations of Planned Parenthood Physicians meeting, San Diego, October 26, 1978
"Planned Parenthood is set up so clinic workers never have to see the babies. It's set up that way because having to look at the babies bothers the workers. Planned Parenthood workers talk about how seeing parts is emotionally painful for them ... The smell of blood penetrates the clinic on the killing days ... I was the person who had to dispose of [the babies] ... There were days when I would go home and think, 'You know maybe this isn't right."
-- Former Planned Parenthood employee
http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/workers_say.htm

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reply from: 4given

What is it Like Performing Abortions?
"Following [the doctor's] directions, I took the collection bottle and poured its contents into a shallow pan. Then I used water to rinse off the blood and smaller particles which clouded the bottom of the pan. 'Now look closely,' the doctor said. 'It is important that we have got all the stuff out.' I looked in the pan to find that the stuff consisted of the remains of what had been, a few minutes before, a thirteen week old fetus. I could make out the remains of arms and legs and a trunk and a skull. I tried to piece them back together in my mind, to see if there were any missing parts. Most of the pieces were so battered and bloody they were not recognizably human. Then my eyes locked upon a perfect little hand, less than half a centimeter long. I stared at four tiny fingers and a tiny opposed thumb, complete with tiny translucent fingers. And I knew what I had done."
--former abortionist "Chi An" quoted in Stephen Mosher's "A Mother's Ordeal: One Woman's Fight Against China's One Child Policy" pgs 60-61
"I got to where I couldn't stand to look at the little bodies anymore"
--Dr. Beverly McMillan, when asked why she stopped performing abortions.
"We all wish it were formless, but its not...and its painful. There is a lot of emotional pain."
--abortion clinic worker quoted in "The Ex Abortionists: They Have Confronted Reality" Washington Post April 1, 1988 pg 21
"I look inside the bucket in front of me. There is a small naked person in there, floating in a bloody liquid-plainly the tragic victim of a drowning accident. But then perhaps this was no accident, because the body is purple with bruises and the face has the agonized tauntness of one forced to die too soon. I have seen this face before, on a Russian soldier lying on a frozen snow-covered hill, stiff with death, and cold."
--Pro-choice doctor and author Magda Denes, "Performing Abortions" by Magda Denes, M.D. "Commentary" Oct. 26 1976 p 35-37
"The first time, I felt like a murderer, but I did it again and again and again, and now, 20 years later, I am facing what happened to me as a doctor and as a human being. Sure, I got hard. Sure, the money was important. And oh, it was an easy thing, once I had taken the step, to see the women as animals and the babies as just tissue."
--abortionist quoted from a radio talk show by John Rice in "Abortion" Litt D. Murfreesboro, TN.
"Clinic workers may say they support a woman's right to choose, but they will also say that they do not want to see tiny hands and tiny feet....there is a great difference between the intellectual support of a woman's right to choose and the actual participation in the carnage of abortion. Because seeing body parts bothers the workers."
--Judith Fetrow, former clinic worker from San Francisco quoted in "Meet the Abortion Providers III" from a taped conference in Chicago 4/3/93
"You would just look in the buckets and see arms and legs. I have horrible dreams about that now. It was something you would see in a scary movie."
--Former clinic worker Kirsten Breedlove
"I went up to the lab one day and on the pathologist's table I saw what I thought was little rubber doll until I realized it was a fetus. . .I got really shook up and upset and I couldn't believe it. It had all its fingers and toes, you know, hands and feet. . . I never thought it would look so real. I didn't like it."
--Planned Parenthood employee quoted in Magda Denes book "In Necessity and Sorrow" New York: Basic Books 1979
"I hated putting babies in strainers and rinsing them off and putting them in zip-lock bags."
--former abortion clinic owner Eric Harrah
"My 23rd abortion changed my mind about doing abortions forever. This patient was a little overweight and ultimately proved to be a little farther along than anticipated. This was not an uncommon mistake before ultrasound was readily available to confirm the gestational age. Initially, the abortion proceeded normally. The water broke, but then nothing more would come out. When I withdrew the curette, I saw that it was plugged up with the leg of the baby which had been torn off. I then changed techniques and used ring forceps to dismember the 13 or 14week size baby. Inside the remains of the rib cage I found a tiny, beating heart. I was finally able to remove the head and looked squarely into the face of a human being -- a human being that I had just killed."
--Dr. Paul Jarrett
http://studentorgs.vanderbilt.edu/sfl/abortionists_speak.htm

reply from: 4given

Are Women Being Given a Choice?
"In my facilities, I always gave option counseling. Of course you make the abortion the most appealing. I told them about adoption and about foster care and about [when there was welfare] assistance. The typical way it would go is, "Well, you know you can place your baby out for adoption." But then, in the second breath you would say, "That's an option available to you, but you also have to realize that there's going to be a baby of yours out here somewhere in the world you will never see again. At least with abortion you know what's happening. You can go on with your life...The longer I was in it, the less I cared, so I really didn't really care what my conscience said. My conscience was totally numb anyway. But what it did do was public relations-wise. You were able, when a reporter or TV crew came, to pull out a packet of information for the patients to read and they received it. So what can anybody say? Publicly it looked good -- in reality it was another tool that was used to force a woman into abortion. It's typical -- I would give them an option and then shoot it down. The only option you didn't shoot down, obviously, was abortion."
--Former clinic owner Eric Harrah quoted by Dr. Jack Willke and Brad Mattes
"I was trained by a professional marketing director in how to sell abortions over the telephone. He took every one of our receptionists, nurses, and anyone else who would deal with people over the phone through an extensive training period. The object was, when the girl called, to hook the sale so that she wouldn't get an abortion somewhere else, or adopt out her baby, or change her mind. We were doing it for the money."
--Nina Whitten, chief secretary at a Dallas abortion clinic under Dr. Curtis Boyd
"Every woman has these same two questions: First, "Is it a baby?" "No" the counselor assures her. "It is a product of conception (or a blood clot, or a piece of tissue). . .How many women would have an abortion, if they told them the truth?" "
--Carol Everett, former owner of two clinics and director of four "A Walk Through an Abortion Clinic" by Carol Everett ALL About Issues magazine Aug-Sept 1991, p 117
"If a woman we were counseling expressed doubts about having an abortion, we would say whatever was necessary to persuade her to abort immediately."
--Judy W., former office manager of the second largest abortion clinic in El Paso, Texas
"Sometimes we lied. A girl might ask what her baby was like at a certain point in the pregnancy: Was it a baby yet? Even as early as 12 weeks a baby is totally formed, he has fingerprints, turns his head, fans his toes, feels pain. But we would say 'It's not a baby yet. It's just tissue, like a clot.'"
--Kathy Sparks told in "The Conversion of Kathy Sparks" by Gloria Williamson, Christian Herald Jan 1986 p 28
"I have seen hundreds of patients in my office who have had abortions and were just lied to by the abortion counselor. Namely 'This is less painful than having a tooth removed. It is not a baby.' Afterwards, the woman sees Life magazine and breaks down and goes into a major depression."
--Psychologist Vincent Rue quoted in "Abortion Inc" David Kupelian and Jo Ann Gasper, New Dimensions, October 1991 p 16

http://studentorgs.vanderbilt.edu/sfl/abortionists_speak.htm

reply from: yoda

That's really a very comprehensive treatment of the subject, 4given, nice job!
On the subject of "who is to blame when someone is lied to", I think there's no one right answer. Sometimes the person being lied to may be fully innocent, but other times they may just be looking for any old excuse to rationalize away their guilt for what they want to do (kill their baby), so they latch onto the lies they are told as if they were the gospel itself.

reply from: 4given

Thank you Yoda. I thought by breaking it up it would encourage others to read, as I know many avoid lengthy posts. Might as well make something of my reading, right?
I agree. It goes back to the issue of conscience, conviction and morals. It is far easier to justify an act that one might otherwise have uncertainty or conviction over when there is an assurance that it is the right or better choice. (as a clinic worker said "The best thing is sad." when comforting a woman upset and uncertain as to whether or not to go through with an abortion.)

reply from: ProInformed

I totally agree Yoda! GREAT job 4Given!
Now... where were those threads where the pro-abort, supposedly 'pro-woman', posters were blaming women for trusting the abortion industry lies (while simultaneously STILL trusting and defending the abortion industry themselves)...
I think some of these quotes should be added to those threads.

reply from: carolemarie

This is a really good post! There is a lot of emotional manipulation used on women to choose abortion by authority figures, such as Doctors and nurses.

reply from: 4given

Here is a link to the above mentioned statement:
At one point, an abortion counselor listens as the woman says that she can't afford another child, that her boyfriend is worried about the financial pressures he'd face, and that she would feel sad about taking her baby's life. To all this the counselor responds: "Sometimes the right decision is also sad."
http://www.macathconf.org/testimony_on_informed_consent_ma.htm

reply from: 4given

More from the above testimony: (taken from A Testimony on Informed Consent)
..I ask you, is this an environment that is conducive to informed choice? Can we expect business operators desperate to survive in a cutthroat market to really exhibit a wholehearted interest in helping women to appreciate the risks of an abortion? Moreover, can we expect low paid counselors to have the guts to ignore their boss's bottom line, and to have the will and specialized training needed to truly empower women to say "no, based on the information you provided me, I do not want to have this abortion"? I do not question the integrity of the workers, but I do question the business environment in which they work. As another abortion provider told Kolata, "the reality is that we can only stay in business if we earn enough to keep our doors open."
Let me give you two local examples of the forces at play. In a 1995 Boston Herald article, Margery Eagan follows a woman as she obtains an abortion in Boston.[2] At one point, an abortion counselor listens as the woman says that she can't afford another child, that her boyfriend is worried about the financial pressures he'd face, and that she would feel sad about taking her baby's life. To all this the counselor responds: "Sometimes the right decision is also sad." What does she mean by the "right" decision? Why not explore with this woman, who is worried about the abortion's impact on her unborn child, the possibility of finding financial and other resources to care for the child? For whom was the abortion the right choice, the woman or the business that had to deal with its own financial bottom line?
Another Boston Herald story in 1996 reported that a 20 year old woman sued a Boston abortion clinic because she was not told that her baby had a heartbeat at the time the abortion was performed.[3] The woman had asked the clinic to give her this information after they did an ultrasound. She was assured, wrongly as it turned out, that there was no heartbeat. Four months after the abortion, she received an anonymous letter containing the results of her ultrasound showing a heartbeat and only then did she learn that she was misled. She told the Herald, "I started crying when I got that letter", reported that she had nightmares, and asserted that "I definitely wouldn't have gone through with [the abortion] if I knew there was a heartbeat." Again, whose interests were paramount here, the woman's or the clinic's?
http://www.macathconf.org/testimony_on_informed_consent_ma.htm

reply from: Teresa18

Great posts, 4given! It was an interesting but sad and nauseating read all at once. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the abortion industry does not care about women. They care about money and dead babies.

reply from: sander

What a sickening reality that to these butchers dead babies equals money.

reply from: Beprolifewithme

nice one 4given! Hi sander! Haven't seen you around, welcome! I believe this.....sickening reality. Lol, what a shocker, no pro abort posted! Prolly couldn't find anything they could say in defense.

reply from: sander

Thank you for the kind welcome.
It's been interesting reading the different subjects and continuing to get informed.
You're right, the proaborts couldn't possibly find anything to say in defense...that is if they even took the time to read.
They'd rather post about anything else, hence the constant changing of the subject from the abhorent deed of abortion to just about anything else...even having hissy fits about rainbows! LOL!
They're SO transparent!
Nice you to meet you.

reply from: ProInformed

Thanx again for the relevent and revealing info 4Given.
With so much evidence, gathered over 35 years, of the abortion industry lying to women and/or denying them access to accurate info in pre-abortion 'counseling' it's IMHO amazing that the abortion industry can still find anyone willing to defend their sleazy ways, let alone keep pretending they are in any way pro-woman!
What's sad and scary is that younger females may not have yet heard much about the abortion industry and are assured by the pro-aborts that the clinics can be trusted.
What's despicable is that those trusting young females will be made fun of and treated hatefully by the same pro-aborts when they find out the clinic they trusted lied to them.

reply from: ProInformed

Thank you for the kind welcome.
It's been interesting reading the different subjects and continuing to get informed.
You're right, the proaborts couldn't possibly find anything to say in defense...that is if they even took the time to read.
They'd rather post about anything else, hence the constant changing of the subject from the abhorent deed of abortion to just about anything else...even having hissy fits about rainbows! LOL!
They're SO transparent!
Nice you to meet you.
Hi Sander,
Yup - the pro-aborts rely on evasion tactics to avoid dealing with the truth or discussing their own pro-abort excuses past the sloganizing level. Changing the subject (um AWAY from something they were previously pretending was SO important to them, supposedly a MAJOR reason they were defending abortion) is a very common ploy of the pro-aborts.
IMHO what pro-lifers need to do when the pro-aborts use such evasion tactics is to refuse to follow their 'lead' (um retreat) and to challenge/chastise them regarding their apparently false concern for the subject they've suddenly lost all interest in.
For example, when a pro-abort uses child abuse as an excuse to defend abortion, but then wants to talk about something else (ANYTHING else... like over-population, rape, women's rights... whatever) when they are given accurate info about child abuse: info that reveals that child abuse INCREASED with the legalization of abortion, that studies have disproved the popular myth that child abuse is caused by unplanned/unwanted pregnancy, and that real child abuse prevention is being hurt by funds and efforts being diverted into defending abortion instead, then the pro-lifers need to confront the pro-abort's EXPLOITATION of child abuse victims and challenge them to choose to protect the child abuse victims instead of the abortion industry.
Many times pro-aborts will skip from one issue to the next, pretending genuine concern about specific problems and people, abandoning their passion and compassion about each in turn when the discussion gets too detailed... until they eventually cycle back again to topics they've already revealed their lack of knowledge and genuine concern about!
IMHO it is crucial that pro-lifers call them on this. Once a pro-abort has shown they don't really know about, let alone care about, things like child abuse, rape victims, women's rights, safety... or even 'choice', then pro-lifers should expose and confront with the evidence from the last time the topic was brought up.

reply from: yoda

Exactly, it's just like crop rotation for farmers, except that what they are growing and rotating is death, not life.
They'll rotate their claims one by one, dropping each as we bring them evidence that refutes their claims. That's why I started the "Yes, a fetus is a baby" thread, because I'm absolutely certain that although they've dropped it for now, if I let it disappear they will start up all over again with the same lies.
Even Merchants of Death know they have to rotate their "stock".

reply from: sander

Both posts, (Yodavater, ProInformed) are powerful.
Sadly, no matter how many times you lay down the bar they can't stand up to the facts and find it necessary to do their run around.
If there wasn't so much money and political power wraped up in abortion on demand we would have won this battle long ago. Pity.

reply from: ProInformed

I just found this link that 4Given provided:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHorxgzc-vc

I thought it would make a good addition to this thread as it reveals an abortionist openly admitting he lies to patients.

reply from: xnavy

i noticed no pro aborts responded to this thread.

reply from: cracrat

That's appalling. Are there no authorities with teeth to regulate this? Why can't these women sue the clinics for mis-leading them or something? Can't the pro-life league (or whatever they're called) bring a civil case against them?

reply from: 4given

WHAT ABORTION WORKERS SAY ABOUT ABORTION:
On Abortion ...
"In medical practice, there are few surgical procedures given so little attention and so underrated in its potential hazards as abortion. It is a commonly held view that complications are inevitable."
-- Warren Hern, Abortionist
"[The abortionists] get to go inflict pain on someone for five minutes ...
-- Charlotte Taft, Former Clinic Administrator
"No one ever says 'Thank you' to an abortionist."
-- Unidentified Abortionist
"Every woman ... has a trauma at destroying a pregnancy ... This is a part of her own life. When she destroys a pregnancy she is destroying herself."
-- Dr. Julius Fogel, Psychiatrist/OB who has performed over 20,000 abortions
"Even now I feel a little peculiar about it because as a physician I was trained to conserve life, and here I am destroying it."
-- Unidentified Abortionist
"If the abortion is well done, we don't have to watch the baby die. So we inject a salt solution. The result is like putting salt on a slug, but we don't have to watch it."
-- Dr. Russell Sacco, M.D.
"... [abortion] is still the dark side of medicine."
-- Morris Wortman, Abortionist
Democrat and Chronicle, July 5. 1992
"I guess I never realized I would find [performing abortions] as unpleasant as I do. I really don't enjoy it at all. It's not a rewarding thing to do ... [patients] look at you as an evil person who is deliberately putting them through a painful procedure ... it's their whole attitude that bothers me. I feel like a simple thank you is in order, instead of 'Why are you doing this to me?'"
-- New York Abortionist
The New York Times Magazine, January 18. 1998
"[Doing abortions] can make you feel bad ... No matter how pro-choice you are, it makes you feel low."
-- New York Abortionist
The New York Times Magazine, January 18. 1998
"The abortion clinics never accept any responsibility for complications. They just say it was not their fault. The concern is not the patient at this time. The concern is with taking care of the doctor and keeping his reputation and the clinic's [reputation] clean." -- Carol Everett, Former Clinic Director and Owner
"You know that there is something alive in there that you're killing."
-- Unidentified Abortionist
In Necessity and Sorrow, Magna Denes, New York: Basic Books. lnc., 1976
"The sensations of dismemberment flow through the forceps like an electric current."
-- Dr. Warren Hern, Abortionist
Associations of Planned Parenthood Physicians meeting, San Diego, October 26, 1978
"It's a nasty, dirty, yucky thing and I always come home angry."
-- David Zbaraz, Abortionist
Washington Post, March 3, 1980
"In some ways it is very boring, these abortions -- the same thing day after day. In fact the nurses are excited about complications because it's something different."
-- A Director of Nursing at an abortion facility
In Necessity and Sorrow, Magna Denes, New York: Basic Books. Inc.. 1976
"An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun. It is dangerous to your life and health. It may make you sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it." "Plan Your Children", Planned Parenthood pamphlet, 1962
"[The abortion procedure is] inherently negative. I don't think that anyone can say that abortion is right. It's a form of life ... This has to be killing ..."
-- New York Abortionist
Democrat and Chronicle, July 5, 1992
"[The governing force behind the abortion industry is] money. It's a very lucrative business. It is the largest unregulated industry in our nation."
-- Carol Everett, Former Clinic Director and Owner
http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/workers_say.htm

reply from: xnavy

bump for this is some powerfull reading

reply from: yoda

It's been tried, and it has failed every time. The abortion lobby is so powerful and well financed that it corrupts every level of law enforcement in this country. They are allowed to break the law with impunity, as the situation in Kansas demonstrates quite well. The abortion clinics there have been in defiance of legal subpoenas for months now, and nothing is done about it.

reply from: nancyu

You all are great. How lucky I feel to have found this forum. I've spent some months arguing with these pro abortion people at digg.com and it is like being in a war where you in a tiny minority (not completely alone though, there are great people fighting with me.) Coming here feels warm and protective, I know that these feelings must be similar to those that a newborn baby has when it is welcomed into the world as opposed to being torn limb from limb in an abortion. (which is something like the way it feels at digg sometimes) I just can't believe that the people who debate us actually believe their own arguments. I'm convinced they don't. Could it be that maybe (maybe?) they want others to understand, and they think the best way to do this is to keep these conversations going?
God Bless you all.

reply from: nancyu

WHAT ABORTION WORKERS SAY ABOUT ABORTION:
This one really gets me. The poor under appreciated abortionist! Doesn't your heart bleed for him?! A simple "thank you" is all he asks!

reply from: nancyu

They must be on their lunch break.

reply from: nancyu

http://www.lifenews.com/state3076.html
http://www.lifenews.com/state2941.html

reply from: yoda

Then you and I have reached the same conclusion about their "sincerity". Most of them, IMO, take this whole debate as a joke, and don't care whether they are being honest or not, because they don't think it has any moral importance, or way or the other.

reply from: 4given

WHAT ABORTION WORKERS SAY:
On Deceit ...
"Sometimes we lied. A girl might ask what her baby was like as a cerlain point in pregnancy. Was it a baby yet? Even as early as twelve weeks a baby is totally formed, he has fingerprints, turns his head, fans his toes, feels pain. But we would say, 'It's not a baby yet. It's tissue, like a clot."
-- Kathy Sparks, former abortion clinic worker
"If a woman we were counseling expressed doubts about having an abortion, we would say whatever was necessary to persuade her to have the abortion immediately ... The abortion clinic that I managed was strictly a business operation ... We did not consider the well-being of the women who had abortions."
-- Judy W., Office Manager of a Texas abortion clinic
"It is extremely difficult to watch doctors lie, clinic workers cover up, and hear terrifying storles of women dragged out of clinics to die in cars on the way to the hospital without beginning to question the party line. I began to wonder if we were really caring for these women, or if we were just working for another corporation whose only interest was the bottom line."
Judith Fetrow, Former Planned Parenthood worker
"... we didn't do any real counseling. We answered only the questions the woman asked and tried not to 'rock the boat'. ... The counselor does try to determine the reason this woman wants the abortion. Not so much to help as to use the fear to reinforce the abortion decision."
-- Carol Everett, Former Clinic Director and Owner
"We only sold one product -- abortion and abortion only. We took whatever other ideas the pregnant woman had and used them to sell abortion... We effectively sold our product." -- Carol Everett, Former Clinic Director and Owner
http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/workers_say.htm

reply from: galen

good stuff to know .. thx

reply from: galen

bumping just for spinwiddy... gee this is stuff from the workers at the clinic... you KNOW this is just biased crap... right???

reply from: xnavy

bump and i hope all the mothers had a great mother's day.

reply from: sander

Thanks, xnavy..hope you had a good one too.

reply from: ProInformed

"That's appalling. Are there no authorities with teeth to regulate this? Why can't these women sue the clinics for mis-leading them or something? Can't the pro-life league (or whatever they're called) bring a civil case against them?"
The patient protection right of Informed Consent is supposed to give the patient the right to sue the physician if info relevent to a medical decision is left out of or falsified in pre-treatment counseling. The abortion industry opposes granting the patient protection right of informed consent to their patients (cu$tomer$), fights all legislative attempts to put this protection in place, and has their brainwashed followers convinced that patient protection rights and regulations are just anti-abortion and anti-choice attempts to prevent women from getting abortions.
They realize that MOST women would not go through with an abortion if they were told the facts. But if a woman CHOOSES to not have an abortion after being told the facts, then giving her the info is not really anti-choice.
Apparently because the abortion industry knows it can count on it's sheeple to make fun of any women who speak up to warn others, they aren't much worried about the risk of the women complaining later. Their pretended concern for the woman ended once she got the abortion she paid for.
And why do the sheeple side with the abortion industry instead of the women?
Mostly because they can't bear the thought of giving up their belief in 'free sex'. The facts: that abortion kills an innocent living baby, that abortion can cause dangerous complications and even death for the woman, that the abortion clinics lie to women and only care about profit$, are truths that can't coexist with their fantasy free sex world.
So they lash out angrily at those who try to tell them the truth, desperately trying to harrass them into silence.

reply from: ProInformed

This is how pro-aborts show 'compassion' and 'concern' for women. This insensitive pro-abort post was left at a site where a mother is warning others about how her 22 year old daughter was killed by an abortion:
"Are you telling me you are backing stupid women who,if not told,(but we all know they are)don't take it upon themselves to find out risks of procedures?Thats being pro-dumbass."
Pro-aborts help the abortion industry assure women that abortion is safe and that the clinics can be trusted. Then when the women end up injured or dead the same pro-aborts try to harrass them (or their surviving relatives) into keeping quiet so other women (paying customers) won't be scared away from abortion clinics.
So if pro-aborts believe women should launch their own in-depth investigation of the risks before making an appointment at an abortion clinic, then why haven't we seen any of those expensive 'pro-choice' ad campaigns stating that is advised? Why aren't we hearing 'pro-choice' politicians and 'pro-choice' group leaders warning women to not trust the clinic counselors - to search for risk info themselves BEFORE they go to the clinic?
How can it be justified to assure women before they go to the clinic that they will be safe and will be told the truth there... but then after they leave the clinic to insult them for trusting the false assurances?

reply from: ProInformed

"In my facilities, I always gave option counseling. Of course you make the abortion the most appealing. I told them about adoption and about foster care and about [when there was welfare] assistance. The typical way it would go is, "Well, you know you can place your baby out for adoption." But then, in the second breath you would say, "That's an option available to you, but you also have to realize that there's going to be a baby of yours out here somewhere in the world you will never see again. At least with abortion you know what's happening. You can go on with your life...The longer I was in it, the less I cared, so I really didn't really care what my conscience said. My conscience was totally numb anyway. But what it did do was public relations-wise. You were able, when a reporter or TV crew came, to pull out a packet of information for the patients to read and they received it. So what can anybody say? Publicly it looked good -- in reality it was another tool that was used to force a woman into abortion. It's typical -- I would give them an option and then shoot it down. The only option you didn't shoot down, obviously, was abortion."
--Former clinic owner Eric Harrah

reply from: sander

He actually thought that it was better to know your baby was dead rather than "out there somewhere". Either way the mother is never going to see their baby again! But, they tell these women death is the best option.
What sick hearts and souls these death merchants possess.

reply from: ProInformed

He actually thought that it was better to know your baby was dead rather than "out there somewhere". Either way the mother is never going to see their baby again! But, they tell these women death is the best option.
What sick hearts and souls these death merchants possess.
Well to those employed in the abortion industry it IS 'better', um for THEIR paychecks, if the baby is dead...

reply from: ProInformed

Yup and any women who trusted them and believed their lies is then insulted, called a liar, and made fun of when she learns the tuth and tries to protect other women from the so-called 'pro-choice' clinics.

reply from: Yuuki

I nominate proinformed for the quoter of the year contest!

reply from: angelofsorrow

These murdering butchers don't care about abortion's victims: the baby, the baby's parents, and other relatives. When I write my pro-life letters to the local
paper and they're published I get both positive and negative responses. The negative response people that says abortion is a good thing has lost their soul.
I try to go at least two to three times a week to the local abortion clinic. I slow my
car down and as I pretend I'm talking on my cellphone, I'm actually praying
passionately to Christ about how we pro-life people can help save our unborn
brothers and sisters. Sometimes I may toss an artificial white rose out of the car
window but sometimes there's traffic behind me or coming in the opposite direction. But I always get the chance to pray fervently to the Lord. I find that
this "pray while driving" is very effective and if I tell my family about it maybe
they'll see that because I have to go by this clinic by myself that this method is
safer for me.

reply from: 4given

The love of money is the root of all evil.
So glad to read of your efforts. I suppose that you will never know who you are reaching. Have faith. I don't blame your family for being concerned about your safety. I am pleased you take action as led- whether in prayer or by placing white roses. May He bless your every effort.

reply from: 4given

"The sensations of dismemberment flow through the forceps like an electric current."
-- Dr. Warren Hern, Abortionist
Associations of Planned Parenthood Physicians meeting, San Diego, October 26, 1978
"It's a nasty, dirty, yucky thing and I always come home angry."
-- David Zbaraz, Abortionist
Washington Post, March 3, 1980
"In some ways it is very boring, these abortions -- the same thing day after day. In fact the nurses are excited about complications because it's something different."
-- A Director of Nursing at an abortion facility
In Necessity and Sorrow, Magna Denes, New York: Basic Books. Inc.. 1976
"An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun. It is dangerous to your life and health. It may make you sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it."
"Plan Your Children", Planned Parenthood pamphlet, 1962

reply from: Yuuki

No! PP couldn't possibly ever say something like that! They're a bunch of baby killing proaborts!!

reply from: angelofsorrow

Thank you so much, 4Given for your kind words and encouragement. It is fellow
pro-life people such as yourself that keep me active in the pro-life movement.
Also the blood of Christ covers my pro-life work. I have a very strong committment to saving our unborn children.

reply from: ProInformed

So 'concernedparent' you are calling ALL the women who state that they did NOT want to abort, that they trusted the assurances that 'pro-choice' clinics can be trusted to tell the truth and to be 'pro-choice' (not pro-abortion), that such clinics offer other services besides abortion, that such clinics are safe places to go for a pregnancy test and to get info and assistance with ALL the CHOICES...
you're calling ALL those women LIARS?!?
I went to the clinic BECAUSE my mother talked me into going there for the pregnancy test AND because I believed they would truthfully answer my questions and would support MY CHOICE to NOT abort.
I was not aware at the time that so-called 'pro-choice' clinics LIE to women and ONLY offer the one 'choice' of abortion. I had no reason to suspect, and had never been warned, that so-called' pro-choice' clinics could and would even go so far as to falsely tell me that I had to abort or else me and my baby might both die, just so they could sell an abortion!!!
LOTS of women I've met IRL and online say they only went to a 'pro-choice' clinic because they trusted they would be given truthful info and support for other options there, but then were told lies and subjected to pro-abort pressures.
ALSO LOTS of women say they were hoping to learn info and get support
they could use to defedn themselves and their baby against the pro-abort
pressures they are being subjected to by others;
(again not being aware that 'pro-choice' clinics should NOT be trusted to be truthful - that they are NOT really supportive of whatever choice the woman
herself wants)
AND LOTS of former abortion industry employees have admitted that:
- the clinic staff encourages any women who call to make an appointment
ASAP for a pregnancy test
- assures them that all their questions and options will be discussed when
they get to the clinic
- but then pretends the only reason for the appointments are the women
supposedly have already made up her mind to abort...
- then they use lies and hard-sell tactics on the women if they don't just shut
up and go along with their assembly-line assumption that they made an
appointment specifically to get an abortion
Why would a real pro-lifer call ALL those women liars?
Why would a real pro-lifer ignore what ALL those former abortion idustry employees expose about the clinic lies?

reply from: Faramir

When we thought my wife was pregnant with our first, someone suggested we go to "the clinic" for a free pregnancy test.
I remember going into a busy office and my wife filling out some paperwork, and one of the staff asking if she wanted to "keep the pregnancy." And I thought to myself "HUH"?
And I remember a teenager sitting by a wall. She looked a little scared, and an older woman was with her talking to the staff, and she identified herself as a "friend who was there for support."
It wasn't until after we left that it all added up that we were at a place that did abortions. Abortion was never an option or a thought when we went there, and didn't know abortions were done there, but there was no pressure or even a suggestion an abortion be done.
I'll never forget the experience, though, and I will never forget that woman who somehow thought she was being a "friend" to help a young girl go behind her parents' backs and end the life of her own child and their grandchild.

reply from: sk1bianca

so if a woman is told the pregnancy might kill her and she has an abortion, and later she finds out it was a LIE... it's her fault?... wow... that's really "pro-woman"...
oh... sorry... i forgot. abortionists are saints. they cannot lie.
even if it wasn't a lie, but some unintended mistake, like a wrong diagnosis (stuff like this happens more often than people think), shouldn't the clinic staff be held accountable for it? especially if the woman really wanted to have the child.
i mean... if you are told you have cancer and undergo chemotherapy or some other nasty treatment and later find out you've never had cancer... would that be ok with you, spinwiddy?

reply from: ProInformed

Nope - I will not shut up and let you LIE about me and other women who were pressured and LIED TO in order to get them to abort!
"If a woman we were counseling expressed doubts about having an abortion, we would say whatever was necessary to persuade her to abort immediately."
--Judy W., former office manager of the second largest abortion clinic in El Paso, Texas
And then such clinic 'counselors' can count on the bort-head bullies like you spinfibby to harrass those women when they find out the truth too late, right spinfibby?
Well I will continue to warn other women about the PRO-ABORT clinics that pretend to be 'pro-woman' and 'pro-choice';
and I will continue to report you to the moderator too.

reply from: Yuuki

Look, I do agree that what Spinny is saying as absolutely wrong, HOWEVER, the things she has been saying are no worse than what Faithman has said lately, so unless you're rporting HIM too, get off your high horse.

reply from: ProInformed

But the pro-aborts claim that the ONLY reason women make appointments at clinics is specifically to get an abortion.

reply from: ProInformed

"They [the women] are never allowed to look at the ultrasound because we knew that if they so much as heard the heart beat, they wouldn't want to have an abortion."-Dr. Randall
'Pro-Choice 1990: Skeletons in the Closet" by David Kuperlain and Mark Masters in Oct "New Dimensions" magazine

reply from: coregrader

Hello to all. I have just joined here and hope to make many friends in the pro life arena. I have a blog www.twentylaws.blogspot.com I hope you will all read and let me know what you think. I am very passionate abou this cause as I can see many of you are also. Hope to hear from you soon!!!

reply from: coregrader

My wife is an RN and recently left her job because the administrators were requiring all nurses to hand out pamphlets for "safe" abortion clinics. No matter what! She said it was the most horrifying thing in the world to have a young couple come in happy and full of pride after finding they were going to be parents then see the look on their faces when you had to say "I am required to give this to you, just in case you change your mind." The admin told her she could do it or she would have to resign to which she replied I will clean out my stuff.
She now works at a Christian hospital where life is still valued as a gift.

reply from: ProInformed

Good for her! BUT she shouldn't have to 'choose' between quitting her job or being forced to promote abortions.
There are some pro-abort liars in this forum who insist that every woman who goes to a clinic, even if she is just going for an appointment to get a pregnancy test, supposedly has already made up her mind to have an abortion.
That is how they defend women being lied to and told they 'need' to abort for medical reasons.

reply from: Faramir

I'm inclined to take people at their word, and I belive it's quite possible someone could have been deceived and made the abortion choice on that basis. So if someone says they were lied to and were pressured into having an abortion, I believe them.
But there's a point when someone "doth prostest too much" and that does not bolster credibility IMHO.

reply from: ProInformed

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
I don't agree.
ProInformed chose to have an abortion. She's an adult.
She maintains that 50% of all Americans should be denied their basic human rights because she wants to blame others for her choices.
(I also find it interesting that she brands US baby-killing proaborts...)
Once again, spinfibby I am reporting your harrassing lies about me to the moderator. I NEVER would have had an abortion if I had been told the truth and that is WHY I was told the LIE that my baby and I would die if I didn't abort - BECAUSE I was walking out of the 'counseling' room in the direction of the waiting room after saying I was not going to abort. If the nurse-midwife at the birthing center I went to years later while expecting my next baby hadn't told me the truth about how a negative Rh blood factor really works I probably would still be under the false impression that an abortion supposedly 'saved my life'.
You're hostility towards me is because you don't want me to warn other women about pro-abort lies.

reply from: ProInformed

I protest when spinfibby posts lies about me.
So because spinfibby posts lies about me, and I don't allow those lies to go unchallenged, MY credibility in your eyes is lessened?
Plus, as I've stated, I post as a warning to other women against the false assurances from the pro-aborts that they will be told the truth at so-called 'pro-choice' clinics.
BTW, what do you think of spinfibby's credibility when she claims that I supposedly went to the clinic to get an abortion instead of just a pregnancy test?

reply from: ProInformed

Thank you for challenging spinwiddy's hateful and insulting lies.
I have reported her to the moderator, and will continue to report her everytime she posts her lie that I went to the clinic to get an abortion instead of just a pregnancy test.
And you're right, it is not pro-woman to defend those who lie to women while calling the woman a liar instead.
And I agree it should be illegal to lie to women to try to get them to have an abortion.

reply from: ProInformed

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
...You mean like when she makes 100 posts in a week's time that say the exact same thing?
She's not trying to convince us. She's trying to convince herself.
I'm not trying to convince you spinfibby - just trying to warn other women about pro-abort liars like you. BTW what is YOUR motive for posting so many posts about me - obsessively posting and reposting your lie that I supposedly went to the clinic specifically to get an abortion?

reply from: coregrader

Agreed. Most liberals (and I say liberals because that is of course the driving force behind this mentality in our country) have very few facts to actually back up their claims, so they resort to untruths and personal attacks against conservatives and traditionalists. The fact of the matter remains that there is a moral majority still alive and thriving in this country who disagrees with abortion on all levels. As for the 93% to 97% statistic this is almost true. Alhough 97% have nothing to do with abortions this simply means they do not perform the procedures within their governing practices. However, they are still more than willing to give you pamplets and referrals to where you can have one performed.
As for the idea of being "pro-choice" itself I am absolutely "pro-choice." I mean we choose to have sex and make babies therefore it was "pro-choice." After all ony 1.3% of abortions are performed as an effect of rape, 2.1% as incest over95% are the result of what I like to call "stupidity" or "pro-choice." So as was stated above "do the math."

reply from: ProInformed

'concernedparent' you have provided the real pro-lifers here plenty of reasons to doubt that you are really as pro-life as you claim... implying that I am a liar and not having a problem with spinwiddy posting hateful lies and insults about me is just one of the many ways you've revealed your lack of being genuinely pro-life.
"You claim you were lied to, told that both you and your baby would die if you did not abort, and imply that you would never have considered it otherwise. What did they say was wrong with you that this would be the case?"
I've posted many times about how the clinic 'nurse' lied about my having a negaitve blood Rh factor was the cause of my feelign sick and her saying that this incompatability between my baby's blood and mine was cuasing both of our red blood cells to be detroyed. She claimed that my baby and I would most likely both die if I did not abort.
"Why did you believe them? Did you get a second opinion, or did you simply place blind trust in the abortion clinic workers?"
Because nobody had ever wanred me that I shouldn't trust them.
Why should I have suspected, for no reason that I knew of at the time,
that clinic staff lied to women just to try to get them to abort?
"You say you trusted them, but I find it somewhat irrational to blindly accept a prognosis that would require you to kill your wanted child."
Well I'm not exactly the only women who has been told that she needs to abort for medical reasons, and who believed it, am I? After all, the claim that supposedly lots of women need to have abortions for medical reasons IS a pretty popular pro-abort argument, isn't it?
I'm curious as to why you are questioning me, implying that I am liar, when you could instead busy yourself with questioning your pro-abort friends when THEY claim that it's reasonable and common for women to get abortions when they are told they need to for medical reasons...
What I am trying to do IS to WARN women NOT to trust it when they are told the LIE that they need to get an abortion for medical reasons. I AM warning women to get a second opinion, or better yet to not even go to the lying clinics i the first place.
Spinfibby is attacking me BECAUSE she doesn't want women to realize what the liars are up to, SHE wants them to trust them and to believe their LIES...
and you are criticizing ME but not HER, eh?
So which side ARE you on 'concernedparent'?
Because from MY perspective as a woman who WAS LIED TO and who IS warning other women NOT to trust the lies - you do NOT look pro-life.
In fact you are doing the same blame the woman and make fun of her for trusting routine that spinfibby is doing, aren't you?

reply from: ProInformed

No you don't know and you obviously prefer to believe spinfibby's lies about me,
despite your false claim to have not made "any kind of judgement about" what actually DID happen to me and my baby.
And I have NEVER, ever had a REAL pro-lifer say to me:
"most women who allow themselves to be talked into aborting, while claiming they absolutely had no desire to do so, are full of shyte".
I am reporting you to the moderator for your offensive and false accusation.

reply from: ProInformed

Welcome to the forum!

reply from: scopia19822

"And I have NEVER, ever had a REAL pro-lifer say to me:
"most women who allow themselves to be talked into aborting, while claiming they absolutely had no desire to do so, are full of shyte". "
I heard something similar at a Rachels Vinyard retreat that I went too in 2007. When I told my story I was told that I could not be fully healed and find peace until I "accepted responsibilty for the part I played in the abortion". I was like WTF! I literally was threatened with a gun if I didnt go with him and I HONESTLY thought that the clinic would call the police when I told them what was being done to me. How was I supposed to know ahead of time what they would really do? I had no choice, was given no choice, unless you count a bullet in the head as a choice.

reply from: coregrader

Thank you proinformed!!

reply from: ProInformed

The ONLY way you would have known ahead of time that the so-called 'pro-choice' clinics side with those who coerce women to abort, and also say/do whatever it takes to try to get women to agree to abort themselves, is if somebody had warned you.
The pro-aborts make fun of the supposed 'paranoia' and 'conspiracy' complaints of pro-lifers who expose the complicity of the media, schools, women's groups, and clinics who help hide the truth from women and enable the clinics to lie to trusting women... then make fun of those same trusting women because they had no idea that the clinics, media, schools, and women's groups were all in on the lying and cover-up.
If you HAD realized the clinic would NOT help you, that they would just back up the pro-abort bully who threatened you, the pro-aborts would make fun of you for being 'paranoid'.
I'm sorry you had problems with that post-abortion group.
I DO feel guilt and deep regret over my baby being killed by abortion - but since there was no reason for me to suspect I was being lied to at the time it doesn't in any way reduce the fault of those who lied.
Knowing what I know now, there is NO WAY anybody could convince me to ever abort another baby AND I NEVER would have had an abortion then if they hadn't lied to me (which is WHY they lied).

reply from: ProInformed

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I've never said that. You really have a shaky grip on the truth.
Reporting both your lie and your insult about my 'grip on the truth'.

reply from: scopia19822

"The pro-aborts make fun of the supposed 'paranoia' and 'conspiracy' complaints of pro-lifers who expose the complicity of the media, schools, women's groups, and clinics who help hide the truth from women and enable the clinics to lie to trusting women... then make fun of those same trusting women because they had no idea that the clinics, media, schools, and women's groups were all in on the lying and cover-up."
Its a catch 22. If they really cared about women they would not object to regulations for clinics that other medical offices are subject too. They would not object to informed consent and parental consent laws. When it comes down it, all they care about is money. Abortionist and serial killers are the same thing, excpet the abortionist gets to do it legally and get paid for it.

reply from: yoda

Now, that's worth repeating.......

reply from: scopia19822

Feel free to repeat it and spam the board with it Yoda. Just give me the credit for saying it

reply from: nancyu

The rhetoric of choice hides the reality of coercion.
64% were pressured to abort. Homicide is the leading killer of pregnant women.
*name has been changed
It was all so organized.
A weekly bus took students to the clinic.
Every Tuesday a scheduled bus picked up students and took
them to the Planned Parenthood clinic. School counselors
arranged the visits. It was all so organized ... Still today,
I feel like I did not decide to have the abortion ... I was
only 14 ... The nurse said this was not the time to be asking
questions, that I should have asked them sooner.
Gaylene, survivor of two post-abortion suicide attempts
My husband said
he'd leave if I didn't abort.
He told me, "Either you have an abortion, or I'll leave you."
Sandra Morean
I sped away ...
my mother caught up with me.
When I told my mom I was pregnant, she immediately made
the appointment [for abortion]. I kept hanging the phone up
on her and she kept redialing. Finally she got through ... The
next morning, I crept downstairs, got into my car and sped
away - she quickly followed and finally caught up with me.
Laura O'Brien
The social worker made us feel like dirt.
Since Jim was unable to find another job, we had to go on
welfare ... Our caseworker was just disgusted with us. She
urged us to have an abortion, saying, "You just can't go
around having babies all the rest of your life." After making
us feel like dirt, she reassured us Medicaid would pay for the
abortion ... There was pressure from everyone ... Confusion
mounted, tension and pressure took control, and I became
another victim of "free choice."
Lorijo Nerad
I screamed that I didn't want the abortion.
Doctor: "Shut up and quit that yelling!"
I was a victim of incest at 15 ... In spite of the pain and guilt
I felt ... it was far better to have a baby than the alternative -
to kill it ... My father flew into an uncontrollable rage and
demanded that I consent to the abortion ...
[The doctor] asked three nurses to hold me while he
strapped me to the bed ... I continued to scream that I
didn't want an abortion. He told me, "Shut up and quit
that yelling!" ... I was violated by my father ... I was
violated again by the abortionist.
Denise*
The doctor begged me to abort.
[The doctor said the medication I'd been taking] causes birth
defects ... and literally pleaded with me, "Please reconsider
... You're a fool to think of not aborting ..." He was so
serious that it frightened me.
Deborah Hulebak
His family pushed for abortion.
His family pushed for abortion - because I was in their home
and they were having to help care for my children while I
was bedridden ... I felt obligated, totally helpless. A part of
me died that day.
Lori Rachuleta
Our pastor assured
my mother that abortion was fine.
My mother arranged my abortion. She didn't like my
boyfriend and wanted to protect my "reputation" ... Our
pastor had assured her that having an abortion was fine. No
one helped me ...
Jane Crawford
My mom said I must abort ...
my boyfriend left town.
I told my boyfriend I was pregnant and he acted as if he
were happy. He left town a short time later leaving me to
face the pressure of what to do. My mother figured out that I
was pregnant ... and she told me I must abort. She said my
life would be ruined if I stayed pregnant.
She also sent me to Planned Parenthood [and to two
other counselors] ... who all agreed with my mother and
counseled me to abort. I had no one who said I could give
life to my child ...
Carla Matrisch
My relatives made the arrangements.
Afterwards, I was on my own.
The baby's father retracted his marriage proposal as soon as
he found out I was pregnant. I had no money, no medical
insurance, and didn't realize that there were places to turn to
for help ...
My relatives made all the arrangements ... everyone was
there to give advice before the abortion, but afterwards I was
on my own. If I had had love, support, and above all, the true
facts, I would have never even considered an abortion. The
pain never goes away.
Carolyn Walton
All the people at the clinic were helpful.
Everybody else just looked down on me.
There I was alone having an abortion. I was really low ...
I didn't want an abortion ... But all the people at the clinic
were real helpful and friendly and tried to make you feel like
you were doing the right thing. Nobody else in my life had
tried to help me ... Everybody else would just look down their
noses at me for being pregnant.
Cathe Birtwell
My mom said I must abort ...
my boyfriend left town.
I told my boyfriend I was pregnant and he acted as if he
were happy. He left town a short time later leaving me to
face the pressure of what to do. My mother figured out that I
was pregnant ... and she told me I must abort. She said my
life would be ruined if I stayed pregnant.
She also sent me to Planned Parenthood [and to two
other counselors] ... who all agreed with my mother and
counseled me to abort. I had no one who said I could give
life to my child ...
Carla Matrisch
My relatives made the arrangements.
Afterwards, I was on my own.
The baby's father retracted his marriage proposal as soon as
he found out I was pregnant. I had no money, no medical
insurance, and didn't realize that there were places to turn to
for help ...
My relatives made all the arrangements ... everyone was
there to give advice before the abortion, but afterwards I was
on my own. If I had had love, support, and above all, the true
facts, I would have never even considered an abortion. The
pain never goes away.
Carolyn Walton
All the people at the clinic were helpful.
Everybody else just looked down on me.
There I was alone having an abortion. I was really low ...
I didn't want an abortion ... But all the people at the clinic
were real helpful and friendly and tried to make you feel like
you were doing the right thing. Nobody else in my life had
tried to help me ... Everybody else would just look down their
noses at me for being pregnant.
Cathe Birtwell
My parents locked me
in the house for two weeks.
My parents told me I was to get an abortion. They locked me
in the house and took the phone off the hook for two weeks.
They told me not to tell anyone I was pregnant ... Two weeks
later they took me 240 miles to Spokane for the abortion ...
Julie Woodley
He destroyed our apartment ...
killing me with his words. "Get rid of it!"
He destroyed our apartment ... and told me to get rid of it.
Now! The whole time he cornered me ... throwing things
and killing me with his words ... The abortion ripped me
apart. Any strength I had to leave the abuse was torn away
from me.
Mary
The counselor never gave me alternatives.
She just kept playing on my fears.
She told us it would be very difficult for us to have a baby.
She said she had three kids herself and the financial aspect
was difficult for her. She never gave me alternatives or asked
if I wanted to keep the baby; she just kept playing on my
fears and making me believe it would never work out.
Kelly
It wasn't my choice. It should be called
"Your Parents' and the Guy's Choice."
No one would support me ... The worst day of my life got
closer and closer. I think in more cases than not, it isn't the
woman's choice. It should be called "Your Parents' and the
Guy's Choice" ... I needed someone to tell me that it was
possible to keep my baby, but no one did.
Amanda
Above quotes are from http://www.unfairchoice.info/pdf/FactSheets/PortraitsOfCoercion.pdf
If you're pregnant, you have a God given Right to Choose NOT to kill your child.
You DON'T have the right to intentionally kill your own child or any other innocent human being. And no one has any right to force, convince or coerce you to do so.

reply from: Yuuki

Sad stories and sad statistics... but where are they from? I heard that over 50% of women were content with their abortions.

reply from: carolemarie

From the Elliot Institute...unfair choice.org
most women go through stages with their abortions....it just depends when they are reporting . Right afterwards they are usually relieved, that the choice is made and it is over. And you can go years not changing that position. Because if you decide that abortion is not okay, you have to deal with the personal implications of saying abortion is wrong.
Abortion is complicated and all kinds of unresolved feelings and trauma are interwound together.

reply from: yoda

Abortions do not prevent babies, they kill them.

reply from: lukesmom

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Only 2%-4% of women regret their abortions.
Source? Or is that off the top of your head?

reply from: Yuuki

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I've never said that. You really have a shaky grip on the truth.
Reporting both your lie and your insult about my 'grip on the truth'.
She never said that. She did say that she CHOSE to abort. But none of us can know why she went to the clinic that day.

reply from: ProInformed

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Only 2%-4% of women regret their abortions.
Source? Or is that off the top of your head?
The choicist cultists ignore or insult any women who expose the truth about how they were lied to in order to get them to abort, or who admit they felt regret after aborting. The only women the so-called 'pro-choice/pro-woman' groups have any interest in are the ones who still trust and believe their pro-abort lies. After they've made the abortion sale, the choicist cultists give those same trusting women the 'choice' of keeping quiet and joining their choicist cult, or being attacked.


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