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Study Finds Women Who Have Abortions Experience Post-Traumatic Stress

by: sertelt

by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
February 13, 2008
Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) -- A new study published in the journal BMC Psychiatry finds that women who have abortions typically experience high levels of post-traumatic stress disorder. The findings mirror other research reports showing women are more likely to suffer mental health issues following abortions compared with keeping the baby.
http://www.lifenews.com/nat3730.html

reply from: Beprolifewithme

Yup, when I've researched this I've seen this many times. There is a group of counselors that do a program called "Rachel's Vineyard" it's counseling for after abortion thoughts, feelings etc.

reply from: 4given

But this directly contradicts what Planned Parenthood's website says. They would not be distorting the truth or down playing the emotional harm a woman may endure, would they?! When is America going to wake up to the reality of how atrocious abortion is? My guess is when PP starts sharing the reality w/ the blind. And the "Roebots" stop w/ the propaganda and bogus arguments. Obviously it is traumatic. Why do pro-aborts deny this fact? Is there someone here, that calls themself 'pro-choice" who will admit to the suffering caused as a result of abortion?

reply from: yoda

Here, let's go to the source of the article, for all the proaborts who will cry "bias":
Induced abortion and traumatic stress: A preliminary comparison of American and Russian womenVincent Rue, Priscilla Coleman, James Rue, David Reardon Med Sci Monit 2004; 10(10):SR5-16 ICID: 11784
ICtm Value: 5.75
Abstract provided by Publisher

Institute for Pregnancy Loss, Jacksonville, FL, U.S.A.Human Development and Family Studies, Bowling Green State University, Bowling Green, OH, U.S.A.Sir Thomas More Clinic, Downey, CA, U.S.A.Elliot Institute, Springfield, IL, U.S.A.
Background:Individual and situational risk factors associated with negative postabortion psychological sequelae have been identified, but the degree of posttraumatic stress reactions and the effects of culture are largely unknown.Material/Methods: Retrospective data were collected using the Institute for Pregnancy Loss Questionnaire (IPLQ) and the Traumatic Stress Institute's (TSI) Belief Scale administered at health care facilities to 548 women (331 Russian and 217 American) who had experienced one or more abortions, but no other pregnancy losses.Results: Overall, the findings here indicated that American women were more negatively influenced by their abortion experiences than Russian women. While 65% of American women and 13.1% of Russian women experienced multiple symptoms of increased arousal, re-experiencing and avoidance associated with posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), 14.3% of American and 0.9% of Russian women met the full diagnostic criteria for PTSD. Russian women had significantly higher scores on the TSI Belief Scale than American women, indicating more disruption of cognitive schemas. In this sample, American women were considerably more likely to have experienced childhood and adult traumatic experiences than Russian women. Predictors of positive and negative outcomes associated with abortion differed across the two cultures.
Conclusions: Posttraumatic stress reactions were found to be associated with abortion. Consistent with previous research, the data here suggest abortion can increase stress and decrease coping abilities, particularly for those women who have a history of adverse childhood events and prior traumata. Study limitations preclude drawing definitive conclusions, but the findings do suggest additional cross-cultural research is warranted.
ICID 11784PMID 15448616 - click here to show this article in PubMed

FULL TEXT 338 KB
http://www.medscimonit.com/abstracted.php?level=5&icid=11784

reply from: jujujellybean

Bump for the pro aborts that don't mind women hurting...

reply from: jujujellybean

hey dude are you the guy that wrote it? sertelt and Steven Ertelt...sounds real close....if you are that's really good!

reply from: 4given

PP updated their site! Last month it stated PASD was a "myth told by the anti-choice side.." Now it says: "Serious, long-term emotional problems after abortion are rare - they are about as likely as after childbirth. Most women feel relieved. Some women experience anger, regret, guilt, or sadness for a short time. Sudden hormonal changes may intensify these feelings." Hormonal changes?!

reply from: carolemarie

Their favorite thing is to say that those who experience PAS "already had emotional problems before the abortion" ...I guess the thousands of women a year who enter healing programs are just wrong about why they feel so terrible.

reply from: sheri

The big difference is after childbirth you have a beautiful baby to cheer you, with an abortion all you take home is a bill and a heartful of regret.

reply from: 4given

I have known some women that suffer severe post pardum depression. Typically a lack of proper rest plays a role in this as well. But, these women do recover. The point is, hormonal changes following an abortion, aren't going to cause someone to have lasting regret. It is a conscience matter. I feel sad for those that looked at their baby as "tissue" and their pregnancy/abortion as a "procedure". Many aren't aware of how gruesome an abortion is, and when faced w/ that reality, will suffer. Many don't think of their child as being human at all. Birthing a healthy baby will not bring about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Causing your child to die will.

reply from: sherrose

I have a friend who found out first hand how abortion adversely affects a woman.
She and I were good friends, we double-dated and even were married within a month or so of each other. Before she married, however, she became pregnant, and felt she had "no choice", but to have an abortion. We talked about it, and I hoped she would reconsider, but she didn't listen to me. I cried when she went through with it.
A couple of months later, she married the same young man who had gotten her pregnant. They eventually started going to church and becoming active in their church. Whenever her church had pro-life activities, she wouldn't attend, because she felt she had no right to participate because of her abortion.
By the time she had two children, we had already started seeing changes in her. Sad, to say, her mental health started slipping. Her marriage ended in diviorce and her husband got custody of her children. She has to take medication so she is functional and can hold a steady job. She told me one time, that they don't tell you what it's really like after you have an abortion or how you'll feel. It destroyed her life.
This was a bright, beautiful, intelligent woman who was friendly, out-going, who had a love of life and was a joy to be around. To see the change in her, breaks my heart.
PP may try to lie their way of the facts by saying it is a myth. The truth is, PP is the liar. I've seen the cost of abortion, not just to the child, but to the mother.
sherrose

reply from: yoda

You know, this may sound cruel to say, but in a way I think that post abortive guilt is a good thing. It proves to me that a person has a deep seated honesty and a strong conscience, and that they will not try to live in constant denial of the truth. That's the mark of a decent person, IMO, who has made a horrible, horrible mistake. She may never get completely "over" that mistake, of course, but she's very unlikely to repeat it or urge others to make that same mistake. And she may even try to be a light to others who are in danger of falling into that horrible place.

reply from: lukesmom

You know, this may sound cruel to say, but in a way I think that post abortive guilt is a good thing. It proves to me that a person has a deep seated honesty and a strong conscience, and that they will not try to live in constant denial of the truth. That's the mark of a decent person, IMO, who has made a horrible, horrible mistake. She may never get completely "over" that mistake, of course, but she's very unlikely to repeat it or urge others to make that same mistake. And she may even try to be a light to others who are in danger of falling into that horrible place.
The proaborts who are really horrendous are the ones who have not only killed their own unborn children but other womens and not only advocate aborting but actually encourage other women to abort. These truely evil women come across as very caring individuals. Goes to show that the most inherent evil appears in the most pleasant guise.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

You kill your little child who should be playing on the floor in front of you, but instead it is quiet and no one is there, the kid's body has long ago rotted away; what do you think? Isn't a person going to feel uncomfortable and have nightmares?

reply from: sherrose

You're right, but a person must have an "informed" conscience to recognize when something is wrong or evil. There should be a red flag or warning bell going off somewhere when you come across something that is wrong.
Too many people don't recognize evil because their conscience hasn't been developed enough to know it when they see it. We all need to exercise our consciences to be aware of right and wrong.
There are those who are Christians, but say they are pro-choice. It makes me wonder what is taught in their churches. But, even when the church teaches pro-life values, there are still some who take the easy way by saying, "everyone else is doing it".
"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke
sherrose

reply from: carolemarie

You know, this may sound cruel to say, but in a way I think that post abortive guilt is a good thing. It proves to me that a person has a deep seated honesty and a strong conscience, and that they will not try to live in constant denial of the truth. That's the mark of a decent person, IMO, who has made a horrible, horrible mistake. She may never get completely "over" that mistake, of course, but she's very unlikely to repeat it or urge others to make that same mistake. And she may even try to be a light to others who are in danger of falling into that horrible place.
The proaborts who are really horrendous are the ones who have not only killed their own unborn children but other womens and not only advocate aborting but actually encourage other women to abort. These truely evil women come across as very caring individuals. Goes to show that the most inherent evil appears in the most pleasant guise.
Sometimes denial takes the form of a women becoming an advocate for the pro-choice movement. Each person who has an abortion justifies your abortions, you can't be wrong if everyone is doing it...I have found the more active in pro-choice activities the more likely it is a woman trying to get past her own guilt by channeling it this way. When they eventually admit they are wrong, they have added a whole extra pile of grief and guilt to deal with, because now they have hurt other women and their children as well as their own. They are pathetic messes. Thank goodness God is kind or I don't know what hope there would be for any of us...

reply from: kayluvzchoice

If they are cold-blooded murderers, why do you feel bad or them? Do you feel bad for people who are convicted of what the law considers murder and their feelings of guilt?

reply from: kayluvzchoice

You know, this may sound cruel to say, but in a way I think that post abortive guilt is a good thing. It proves to me that a person has a deep seated honesty and a strong conscience, and that they will not try to live in constant denial of the truth. That's the mark of a decent person, IMO, who has made a horrible, horrible mistake. She may never get completely "over" that mistake, of course, but she's very unlikely to repeat it or urge others to make that same mistake. And she may even try to be a light to others who are in danger of falling into that horrible place.
The proaborts who are really horrendous are the ones who have not only killed their own unborn children but other womens and not only advocate aborting but actually encourage other women to abort. These truely evil women come across as very caring individuals. Goes to show that the most inherent evil appears in the most pleasant guise.
I have not even had an abortion and I do not encourage other women too. I have NEVER suggested or advised a woman to get one.

reply from: yoda

Misery loves company, so they say. In this case I think some post abortive women want to try to convince the world that abortion is "okay" so they can take comfort in not being alone in what they have done. Sometimes it's only after many decades that their denial breaks down, and they sense the ghost of the baby they killed so long ago.

reply from: yoda

That's an interesting topic, and I don't know what the "real reason" is that some women (and some men) have an active, strong conscience, while others seem not to. But I do know that's how it is.... and some women turn around at the last minute, at the abortuary, because of their conscience. The pull of "everyone's doing it" is strong enough to get them there, but not to actually get them to do the deed. Some of them have said that it is the presence of we protesters there, others don't say what it is, they just go away. And that's fine with me.

reply from: yoda

And that's the saddest thing of all, about abortion. You can be guilty not only of killing your own child, but partially responsible for the deaths of other people's children as well. How heavy could that be?

reply from: yoda

Your denial is not convincing at all, Kay. Your words on this forum could've influenced many women to kill their babies. You have no way of knowing how many babies' deaths you bear some responsibility for. It could be hundreds.

reply from: carolemarie

If they are cold-blooded murderers, why do you feel bad or them? Do you feel bad for people who are convicted of what the law considers murder and their feelings of guilt?
I don't think they are "cold-blooded murderers" I think they are women who were deceived and made a terrible choice based on wrong information.
And yes, I think it would be horrible to kill someone and then have to live with it the rest of your life, especially if you came to regret it...

reply from: faithman

Reguardless of whether "cold blooded" or not, a murder was committed. Now you can call it negligent homocide, man slaughter, 2nd degree, or first degree, but it all is still the taking of an innocent life, and all are considered murder. Those who do such things are murderers, and always will be while on this earth. I am all for forgiveness, but a murderer forgiven, is a forgiven murderer. As long as we keep cutting special dispensation for killer moms, we devalue the womb children they have killed. If justice is to truely be blind, then we can not ignore the fact that those who abort their children are murderers. But somehow we make the statement of fact worse than the fact that someone who kills innocent womb life is a murderer. Ex-baby killers, who want to gloss over these facts, inadvertantly dishonor, and devalue womb life. They dishonor the child already killed, and devalue the ones yet to be killed by making them second in consideration. You can not call abortion murder, without automaticly calling those involved a murderer.

reply from: LolitaOlivia

These fictional woman were equally informed about both sides of the argument and would have read about all their options.
If they chose to abort, then clearly they felt it was the right thing to do - and they did it though their own reasoning from ALL the information presented.
You also have no way of knowing how many abortions happened from people reading this forum. It could be...NONE.
It is, after all, a pro-LIFE forum, amirite?
I had a friend who went to a bunch of pro-life sites before her abortion to see if any of them could talk her out of it. It didn't end up making much of a difference. If your mind is already made up, I don't think reading forums is going to do much to change it.

reply from: yoda

For some, probably so. For others, it was a deliberate choice, knowingly made in a cold blooded manner.

reply from: carolemarie

For some, probably so. For others, it was a deliberate choice, knowingly made in a cold blooded manner.
Even if they know the facts and still think abortion is their best solution, they are still deceived and their information was still faulty.

reply from: carolemarie

Does this half-*ss forgiveness apply to all sin or just ones you don't like?
The past is gone, as the song goes, just like yesterday is gone, history is gone and last Friday is gone....and today is all the counts! Today, no matter what you were yesterday, today if you have accepted Jesus as Lord, you are clothed in righteousness and God says there is no sin attached to you. You are not a forgiven whatever, you are simply blameless in the sight of God and His beloved child.
Every child who dies by abortion is yet still alive and living a life in the presence of God. He works the justice.

reply from: yoda

How so? If one is fully informed, how can they be "misinformed" or "deceived"?

reply from: yoda

Then what is your opinion about the fate of born, innocent Christians who are wrongfully killed? Are they also "in the presence of God"?
If so, then does that make it "justice" to let the person who murdered them go free?

reply from: 4given

I believe that all of us have some experience with abortion. Whether or not it is through a family member or loved one, and maybe w/out realizing it. Abortion has more victims than just the mother. (and obviously the child) Reading through this article, I came to recognize a lot of symptoms my sister posesses. The short of it is as follows. She was newly married to a loving man. I had never in my life seen her so happy. She became pregnant shortly before their first anniversary. He told her that the timing was inconvenient for them. He said he was just starting a position where he could put money into savings for a new home, and a baby would take from that. She was reared in our home for about 10 years. This means that she had a Christian upbringing and knew the joy that came with every new life. She killed her baby to appease the man she desperately loved. Two days after that he was struck by a van and was killed. Not only did she lose the man she loved, but she lost the baby that God had given to them. Now after nearly 20 years, she still struggles. One toxic relationship to another. She has 4 more children, with 3 different fathers. She has struggled with depression, drug abuse and anger issues. She has been trying to fill that void she created through killing the child of the only man she truly loved. Now in her 40's, I see history repeating itself. She still is searching and hurting ; daily making choices that are causing her demise. Her children as well. With 2 of them in their father's custody, and an 18 year old in and out of JDC, she can't focus on bettering her situation. Her choices always lead to a negative outcome. She talks of Anthony sometimes. Living with the memory of how he loved her. I imagine that things would be different for her now. She pushes bc on her children, saying things like "You better strap up so you don't have a girl aborting on you.." Her life is evidence of what happens when one rebels against not only God, but also their own moral standards. She opposed abortion. Being the person she is, I was surprised that she would ever kill for someone- especially kill a part of herself that she wanted. Even yet, in her continual spiral of rebellion and anger, she returns her thoughts to that significant week. The elective killing of her love child and the death of her true love 2 days later. She has been treated for anxiety, attention deficit and depression. Her choice has inadvertently effected not only her life, but the lives of her children.

reply from: faithman

Does this half-*ss forgiveness apply to all sin or just ones you don't like?
The past is gone, as the song goes, just like yesterday is gone, history is gone and last Friday is gone....and today is all the counts! Today, no matter what you were yesterday, today if you have accepted Jesus as Lord, you are clothed in righteousness and God says there is no sin attached to you. You are not a forgiven whatever, you are simply blameless in the sight of God and His beloved child.
Every child who dies by abortion is yet still alive and living a life in the presence of God. He works the justice.
You pervert God's word, and dishonor the justice He has put in the hands of man. The eternal consiquence is gone, that is a fact. But we still must deal with the justice that God has placed in the hands of man in this temperal time zone. Please read all of your bible, not just the parts that suport your feminized castration of HIS will. Genesis 9:6, and Romans chapter 13 has ordained man to do justice on behalf of the innocent, and purge the land of evil. Acceptance of Christ is not salvation. And that is not supported anywhere in scripture. The scripture says you must loose your life to have the life of Christ. It is not acceptance, but surrender. The Bible says He draws near the humble and contrite. There is no true humility in those who arrogantly refuse to recognize the fact that killing a baby makes one a murderer, and deserve the death penalty. Paul the apostle never completely over came the fact that he had christians murdered before his conversion. He never cavalierly swept under the rug his sin as you have here. Till the day he died, he proclaimed himself the chiefest of sinners for the crimes he committed. Anyone who truely felt sorry for the crime of ripping one womb child apart, much less 2 or 3, would not try to avoid the fact that they are guilty of murder, nor would they ever talk down to those who have kept the focus of this issue on the child, insted of blurring the view with cruel mercy for those who slaughtered their own preborn.

reply from: carolemarie

Abortion is against the law

reply from: carolemarie

Does this half-*ss forgiveness apply to all sin or just ones you don't like?
The past is gone, as the song goes, just like yesterday is gone, history is gone and last Friday is gone....and today is all the counts! Today, no matter what you were yesterday, today if you have accepted Jesus as Lord, you are clothed in righteousness and God says there is no sin attached to you. You are not a forgiven whatever, you are simply blameless in the sight of God and His beloved child.
Every child who dies by abortion is yet still alive and living a life in the presence of God. He works the justice.
You pervert God's word, and dishonor the justice He has put in the hands of man. The eternal consiquence is gone, that is a fact. But we still must deal with the justice that God has placed in the hands of man in this temperal time zone. Please read all of your bible, not just the parts that suport your feminized castration of HIS will. Genesis 9:6, and Romans chapter 13 has ordained man to do justice on behalf of the innocent, and purge the land of evil. Acceptance of Christ is not salvation. And that is not supported anywhere in scripture. The scripture says you must loose your life to have the life of Christ. It is not acceptance, but surrender. The Bible says He draws near the humble and contrite. There is no true humility in those who arrogantly refuse to recognize the fact that killing a baby makes one a murderer, and deserve the death penalty. Paul the apostle never completely over came the fact that he had christians murdered before his conversion. He never cavalierly swept under the rug his sin as you have here. Till the day he died, he proclaimed himself the chiefest of sinners for the crimes he committed. Anyone who truely felt sorry for the crime of ripping one womb child apart, much less 2 or 3, would not try to avoid the fact that they are guilty of murder, nor would they ever talk down to those who have kept the focus of this issue on the child, insted of blurring the view with cruel mercy for those who slaughtered their own preborn.
My point is that first of all: Abortion is legal. It is not a criminal act in America. so people who choose it are not guilty of breaking the law, are not criminals. Lots of them think it is okay because our culture is so accepting of it.
Until a radical shift happens in their viewpoint, they don't even see it as a bad thing to do. They are not guilty of murder because this is a legal action.
So why do they feel guilty? That is God awakening their conscience. Once awakened, until they find God, there is no peace or rest for them. However, once they find Him, they no longer have any reason to feel guilty because Jesus took that upon Himself and paid it once and for all. They are free.
I am sorry that you don't like that, but it is the GOSPEL, not an invention of mine. You are the one who wants to make sure that those who choose abortion don't get to walk in freedom because it offends your sense of justice. God can and does work justice just fine without your help.

reply from: carolemarie

That is really sad! You didn't say if she is a Christian or not. If she is, get her to go to a post-abortion healing class, it will change her, set her free to live and get past it. Because her child is alive, and once she grasp that truth of that, there is nothing to mourn anymore. Your bad choice has been nullified.
God wants us to walk in freedom

reply from: joe

You are one confused wannabe pro-lifer. You did not even repent of your own murder and you call yourself pro-life. Pro-lifers such as yourself cause as much harm as the suicidal and depressed pro-choice advocates such as Vexing. Stop dehumanizing the unborn and start respecting human life.

reply from: faithman

You are one confused wannabe pro-lifer. You did not even repent of your own murder and you call yourself pro-life. Pro-lifers such as yourself cause as much harm as the suicidal and depressed pro-choice advocates such as Vexing. Stop dehumanizing the unborn and start respecting human life.
The self deluded and self justified would rather live in darkness than come to the light, because they can not admit their deeds are evil. We just gotta quit calling abortion murder, if those who do it are not murderers. And if it is not murder, then PP is a good thing. So I guess we all just gotta be pro-choice like carol.

reply from: joe

You are one confused wannabe pro-lifer. You did not even repent of your own murder and you call yourself pro-life. Pro-lifers such as yourself cause as much harm as the suicidal and depressed pro-choice advocates such as Vexing. Stop dehumanizing the unborn and start respecting human life.
The self deluded and self justified would rather live in darkness than come to the light, because they can not admit their deeds are evil. We just gotta quit calling abortion murder, if those who do it are not murderers. And if it is not murder, then PP is a good thing. So I guess we all just gotta be pro-choice like carol.
Personally I think carolemarie is a pro-choice advocate. Either that or she has to dehumanize the unborn so she can sleep at night. If that is the case she clearly has not received forgiveness because she truly did not repent.

reply from: joe

I do not see anything wrong with that statement. It is an accurate assessment.

reply from: 4given

No. She was reared in a Christian home, but has turned her back on God. She is living in darkness and won't even call Him God. She says things like "higher power" or "divine spirit". It has been twenty years. She has her own way of self-medicating, I guess you would call it. She abuses drugs and alcohol. I really think that she needs to open up about it and seek forgiveness. Because of the shame it has caused her, she has hardened her heart. I don't speak w/ her often. I haven't seen her in 12 years actually. I pray when led to for her. Really she needs to be honest about it before she can start to heal. She isn't one for therapy, but maybe having another woman to turn to would help. I will certainly suggest it. Thank you.

reply from: faithman

I do not see anything wrong with that statement. It is an accurate assessment.
snicker snicker......

reply from: carolemarie

Sometimes, you need to sneak people into healing because they can't let go. God wants to forgive her and restore her and bless her. He loves her and she needs Him.
I will pray for her and I would suggest to get her a copy of Forgiven and Set Free and mail it to her with no return address on it. Maybe she will be curious and look at it and God will touch her heart...

reply from: 4given

Thank you for the information. I will look for the book online. I would like to see her set free! I appreciate the prayers for her. God knows how desperately she needs them. Thank you!

reply from: carolemarie

You are one confused wannabe pro-lifer. You did not even repent of your own murder and you call yourself pro-life. Pro-lifers such as yourself cause as much harm as the suicidal and depressed pro-choice advocates such as Vexing. Stop dehumanizing the unborn and start respecting human life.
I never said that I didn't repent or that people don't need to. Obviously I regret my choices. But I am free of the guilt and I am a born again Christian, old things have passed away and I am free of all of that. Everything I said in the post above I stand on and if you don't like it, you need to take it up with GOD because He was the one who said it!
I am NOT guilty of anything and I am who Christ says I am, not who you say I am.
Read your bible, then try living it.

reply from: joe

You are one confused wannabe pro-lifer. You did not even repent of your own murder and you call yourself pro-life. Pro-lifers such as yourself cause as much harm as the suicidal and depressed pro-choice advocates such as Vexing. Stop dehumanizing the unborn and start respecting human life.
I never said that I didn't repent or that people don't need to. Obviously I regret my choices. But I am free of the guilt and I am a born again Christian, old things have passed away and I am free of all of that. Everything I said in the post above I stand on and if you don't like it, you need to take it up with GOD because He was the one who said it!
I am NOT guilty of anything and I am who Christ says I am, not who you say I am.
Read your bible, then try living it.
Read Matthew 7:21-23...how could Christians be condemned?
You say they are not guilty of breaking the law....did you forget God's law or laws of nature?
If repentance was achieved why do you hide your sin with false descriptions of this act. If you are forgiven (between the true God and you) then you should have no problem calling abortion for what it is. It is the legalized murder of innocent human beings...the slaughter of humans that are worthy of the same protection as you. I understand you try to use kindness to win over the potential killers....but disrespecting the unborn in the process is simply wrong.

reply from: carolemarie

Because there are two different things we are talking about.
Abortion is legal in America. Those who get abortions are breaking no laws in our country. They are not murderers under our laws.
Abortion while not against the law, is still a sin. Our country can call it right all day long, but God says it is wrong so it is. So if you sin, you are a sinner.
And when God awakens your conscience, your guilt for breaking God's laws will give you no peace until you give in and admit that you were wrong. Repentance is changing your mind and agreeing with God. When you do that, and accept Jesus, He does something so totally wonderful that it just blows my mind!
He takes all your sin from you, every bit of it and makes it His, and He pays the penalty due. You owe nothing and are clean as snow. God sees no sin attached to you. He says "What sin?" You are now a child of God. You are not a redeemed liar or a redeemed cheater. Your simply a Christian now. Old things are gone and the new remains....
And your child is not dead, so it is silly to cry for it when it lives...God changes the outcome of your actions. He works justice with His own hands. I think that is just so amazing that it astonishes me everythime I think of it! I am not guilty of anything and I am a saint of God. And that is how it works for all of us.
And here is a point for thought, I believe that if you don't care about the abortion provider as much as you do the baby, you are sinning against God as much as the Doctor and the mom are .

reply from: carolemarie

Because abortion is not against the law in America. People who get them are not breaking the law, so it is incorrect to call them murderers. It is not the same thing as doing drive by's which is against the law in America.
Abortion is sin because God says so. So those who get one are sinners. When your conscience is awaken, your guilt over breaking God's laws will give you no peace until you finally agree with God that what you did was wrong. Repentance is changing your mind and agreeing with God. When you accept Jesus as Lord, He takes all your sins, they belong to Him now, not you, and He pays the price for those sins with His blood, so you are bought with a terrible price tag, but the sins don't belong to you anymore. They are gone. When God looks at you He says"what sin?" You are a new person, the old person is gone. You are not guilty of anything anymore and you get to walk in freedom. You are not a forgiven liar or a forgiven murderer or a forgiven gossip. You are simply a Saint of the Most High God. That is who you are. That is your idenity and we have that on the word of God! Then if that isn't enough, God alters the outcome of your choices. Instead of sorrow over my bad choices, I find out that my children live, they are not dead, so I have nothing to cry over! God has nullified my choices, because I do not have the power to bring people back from the dead, My God does and has. God is amazing, I mean truely amazing and wonderful and beyond anything we can imagine. That is working justice!
And I think that failure to love the abortion provider and the mom as much as you care for that baby is just as bad as getting an abortion. We are commanded to love as we are loved. Staggering implications lie in that command....

reply from: yoda

Say what? Is that some sort of religious metaphorical comment?

reply from: 4given

This is what troubles me about the estimated 78% of women who obtain an abortion and report a religious affiliation. (according to Guttmacher Institute Stats)
The mindset that God will forgive me. He is a forgiving God, but one has to acknowledge their sin. They have to be broken and contrite before Him. This type of thinking may help a woman come to terms w/ the decision to abort. A true follower of Christ would never see abortion as acceptable in God's eyes.

reply from: carolemarie

Say what? Is that some sort of religious metaphorical comment?
It's a Christian concept that souls live forever.

reply from: carolemarie

I never said that one didn't have to repent. But no sin is acceptable in Gods eye

reply from: 4given

Carole, I was not implying that you did. I was simply stating that women who do grow up within the Christian faith understand that God will forgive all sin with repentance. The point I was making is that the numbers of women who associate w/ a religious affiliation, indicate to me that to them abortion is deemed forgivable. (or that they don't have a relationship with God- head vs. heart.) I remember being reared in the faith myself, as a child thinking "If I disobey, I can ask for forgiveness later. They will forgive me. God will forgive me.." I was applying my own experiences to it, although not nearly as significant, as I have never believed abortion is a forgivable act. I fail to understand how a woman, reared as I was, could abort and forgive themselves, even after their heart was right with God. This again, does not apply to the experiences you have shared. God be praised for His redemptive power! He has and will continue to use you. He wants to use our unique experiences for His glory.

reply from: faithman

Once again[as most baby killers do] you pervert the word of God, and comit the sin of idolatry, by recreating Him in your image of Him. You make evil doers stop, both by mans law and by God's. I ministry in the jails quite often. Mostly by mail at present. I would be more than glad to visit the abortionist, as well as killer mom, when they find their poper place in prison. Either abortion is murder or it is not. And if you kill a womb child, it makes you a murderer while still on this planet. I have seen many a murderer come to Christ in the jail. But as long as they are on this earth, by man's law, they will be murderers for the rest of their life. Your opinion, though your entitlement, is void on this issue, because of conflict of enterest. You want to claim special status to avoid the same consideration as that given to any other murderer. We can't pick and choose justice. If abortion is murder, then those involved are murders. And even though forgiven, will be a murderer while on this planet. To do anything less is to dishonor the womb child that was cold bloodedly snuffed out, and is reduced to a "youthful mistake". I find it very strange that you use the same rhetoric as the bort heads to self justify your "mistake". Your self justification, and bending justice to fit you personally, ultimatly makes you the enemy of the womb child. The womb child is not out Murdering abortionist now are they? If they were, then I would have exactly the same stance for justice. .....and what is more staggering, and not a perversion of the word, It says the wrath of God abides on the children of disobediance, and government is suppose to be the instrument of God to carry out His justice upon evil doers. To demand anything less is a perversion of God's word, and man's law.

reply from: yoda

Okay, so then according to that, no one has ever died, right? And we can just do away with the word "death", right?
Anyway, I've just got to ask about this other statement of yours:
You know, that's an extremely mild statement..... it's kind of like saying "I regret that I went into the wrong career", or something to that effect. Is that the strongest statement you can make about your abortion?

reply from: GratiaPlena

I agree with Carole on this one- God forgives those who repent from their abortions.

reply from: joe

I am disgusted by how easily "Christians" forgive abortions. First you commit blasphemy by suggesting they are forgiven. We know who can forgive sins and he is not here with us personally to do it, so I suggest you keep quiet on forgiveness unless you are the Christ. Forgiveness is between God and the sinner, judgment day will give the answer. By suggesting falsely that God forgives everything you give permission to the wicked to kill innocent human life.
"And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" Matthew 7:21

reply from: jujujellybean

I am disgusted by how easily "Christians" forgive abortions.
Disgusted? For forgiving seventy times seven, just as the bible told me too? Interesting how in the church that was the reading today!
First you commit blasphemy by suggesting they are forgiven.
We know who can forgive sins and he is not here with us personally to do it, so I suggest you keep quiet on forgiveness unless you are the Christ. Forgiveness is between God and the sinner, judgment day will give the answer.
Blasphemy for forgiving as Christ did? aren't we supposed to do as he would have done? Sure, we may not be able to declare where they spend eternal life, but we can do what we know Jesus would have done, like he did with so many in the bible: Samaritans, Gentiles, even Jews. He forgave. We have no right to hold grudges against people because they did something. We are just as imperfect as they are.
By suggesting falsely that God forgives everything you give permission to the wicked to kill innocent human life.
Sure, God may not forgive the unrepentant heart, but if you want to love God and want to be forgiven, then God is not going to say because of this sin you shall not be forgiven, and thank himself he doesn't, because since we are all imperfect, we would all be headed down. Should we shun Carole because she had an abortion, even though she is repentant?
"And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" Matthew 7:21
I find it interesting how you just grab a bible quote and slap it on the page. I mean, seriously, Jesus wasn't even talking about anything related to what we are talking about here! In fact, Jesus was talking about PROPHETS who are hypocrites, not people who ask for forgiveness. He does talk about at the beginning of the section about how not everyone will enter Heaven, but he is talking about people who claim to be of God but did not act like him. Who do mighty deeds in his name but still live bad lives. Try not to use the bible so well, oddly. You can't just take a random verse and make it apply to what you want it to!

reply from: yoda

Okay, but what about the "no one ever dies, so my baby isn't dead" thing?
Do you agree with that too?

reply from: carolemarie

I think that the answer to your question is that even Christians can sin and no matter how terrible the sin, God will forgive them if they repent. You forgive yourself because if you don't you are saying the sacrifice God made by dying for your sin wasn't enough.
That is why evangelism is so important, because if there is no God, anything is permissable.
Carole

reply from: carolemarie

Once again[as most baby killers do] you pervert the word of God, and comit the sin of idolatry, by recreating Him in your image of Him. You make evil doers stop, both by mans law and by God's. I ministry in the jails quite often. Mostly by mail at present. I would be more than glad to visit the abortionist, as well as killer mom, when they find their poper place in prison. Either abortion is murder or it is not. And if you kill a womb child, it makes you a murderer while still on this planet. I have seen many a murderer come to Christ in the jail. But as long as they are on this earth, by man's law, they will be murderers for the rest of their life. Your opinion, though your entitlement, is void on this issue, because of conflict of enterest. You want to claim special status to avoid the same consideration as that given to any other murderer. We can't pick and choose justice. If abortion is murder, then those involved are murders. And even though forgiven, will be a murderer while on this planet. To do anything less is to dishonor the womb child that was cold bloodedly snuffed out, and is reduced to a "youthful mistake". I find it very strange that you use the same rhetoric as the bort heads to self justify your "mistake". Your self justification, and bending justice to fit you personally, ultimatly makes you the enemy of the womb child. The womb child is not out Murdering abortionist now are they? If they were, then I would have exactly the same stance for justice. .....and what is more staggering, and not a perversion of the word, It says the wrath of God abides on the children of disobediance, and government is suppose to be the instrument of God to carry out His justice upon evil doers. To demand anything less is a perversion of God's word, and man's law.
I am simply stating the gospel, not changing anything to suit me. Abortion is legal in America, something you have difficulty grasping....
I am not a child of disobedience anymore, I am a beloved child of God. That is the gospel message. You once were, but old things have passed away and only the new remains.... there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Your sin doesn't exist anymore and God calls you friend.
I would point out to you that David was a man after God's own heart, yet he had a man killed so he could committ adultry, this wasn't before he knew God, but while he did. And He isn't known as a forgiven murderer, but as a man after God's own heart.
Paul who brought the gospel to the Gentiles didn't go around calling himself a forgiven murderer, he said he was an apostle chosen by God.
You are simply wrong about what you are saying.

reply from: 4given

I understand. That is why I stressed being reared as I was. We were taught to fear God. It wasn't until I grew in the Lord and began a relationship with Him that I appreciated that I am commanded to fear and love God. Before I acknowledged His love for me, I sought repentance out of fear alone. I always loved Jesus, but feared God. Many struggle with sin guilt and aren't truly set free because they feel unworthy. The "we are but filthy rags" mentality that still have some of my loved ones bound to their past, rather than turning to the Lord with a joyful heart for strength.
"The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. " Psalm 34:18
"All his transgressions that he hath commited, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live." Ezekiel 18:21,22
"...for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matthew 9:13

reply from: jujujellybean

Okay, but what about the "no one ever dies, so my baby isn't dead" thing?
Do you agree with that too?
What exactly do you mean, Yoda? I believe that all aborted children are now with God, as his beloved children, but that doesn't condone abortion. God gave us the freedom to choose so we wouldn't be robots, but taking away the life of another human being is in straight denial of the ten commandments: Thou Shalt Not Kill. He set rules so that we would know what was right and wrong.
People that use that argument need to think that through more thoroughly. The babies' soul is not dead, but it was never able to make it's own decisions or decide things because it's life was taken so early.
Also, dead can mean spiritual and physical, and God gave everyone the right to make decisions about themselves spiritually and physically, and when you kill one before birth, you are robbing them that right.

reply from: joe

Really? Claiming to be a Christian and killing an innocent life is not what he is talking about? Being a hypocrite and his follower is exactly what he refers to.
I find it amazing how Christians judge Paul Hill who killed to protect then turn around and forgive a woman who killed the most pure with a free pass to heaven.
This Christian nation should not have abortion legal! It is legal because of false love that Christians preach, who act like God gave them authority to forgive the sins of their friends and family...hypocrites!
According to your forgiveness doctrine then abortion is good. The mothers and the slaughtered children go straight to heaven. That is not a just God, that is a God created so people can live in sin and have peace at the same time.

reply from: joe

Carole can not even equate abortion to murder...that is not a repentant heart. When a sinner denies his sin how is that repentance?
We are all sinners and rely on Gods grace....Gods decision.

reply from: yoda

I was asking about what Carole said in a previous post about how her child (that she aborted) "was not dead", because of the immortality of the soul.
It seems to me that we are deceiving ourselves if we deny that we can indeed be physically dead, regardless of the immortality of our souls.

reply from: faithman

Once again[as most baby killers do] you pervert the word of God, and comit the sin of idolatry, by recreating Him in your image of Him. You make evil doers stop, both by mans law and by God's. I ministry in the jails quite often. Mostly by mail at present. I would be more than glad to visit the abortionist, as well as killer mom, when they find their poper place in prison. Either abortion is murder or it is not. And if you kill a womb child, it makes you a murderer while still on this planet. I have seen many a murderer come to Christ in the jail. But as long as they are on this earth, by man's law, they will be murderers for the rest of their life. Your opinion, though your entitlement, is void on this issue, because of conflict of enterest. You want to claim special status to avoid the same consideration as that given to any other murderer. We can't pick and choose justice. If abortion is murder, then those involved are murders. And even though forgiven, will be a murderer while on this planet. To do anything less is to dishonor the womb child that was cold bloodedly snuffed out, and is reduced to a "youthful mistake". I find it very strange that you use the same rhetoric as the bort heads to self justify your "mistake". Your self justification, and bending justice to fit you personally, ultimatly makes you the enemy of the womb child. The womb child is not out Murdering abortionist now are they? If they were, then I would have exactly the same stance for justice. .....and what is more staggering, and not a perversion of the word, It says the wrath of God abides on the children of disobediance, and government is suppose to be the instrument of God to carry out His justice upon evil doers. To demand anything less is a perversion of God's word, and man's law.
I am simply stating the gospel, not changing anything to suit me. Abortion is legal in America, something you have difficulty grasping....
I am not a child of disobedience anymore, I am a beloved child of God. That is the gospel message. You once were, but old things have passed away and only the new remains.... there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Your sin doesn't exist anymore and God calls you friend.
I would point out to you that David was a man after God's own heart, yet he had a man killed so he could committ adultry, this wasn't before he knew God, but while he did. And He isn't known as a forgiven murderer, but as a man after God's own heart.
Paul who brought the gospel to the Gentiles didn't go around calling himself a forgiven murderer, he said he was an apostle chosen by God.
You are simply wrong about what you are saying.
No I am not the wrong one here. I do not pervert justice, and dishonor the innocent life that was cold bloodedly slaughtered. I have already acknowlaged the fact that eternal consiquence is delt with in true repentance. Your error is that you pervert man's justice. If the puke you are smearing on us here is true, then we need to open all prison doors to any killer who comes to christ. As long as you are on this planet, you are a baby killer and a murderer. That is a fact no matter how much you want to pervert God's word to excuse the greivious sin you committed against the womb child. And you are wrong about paul, as he did count himself the chiefest of sinners as long as he lived for killing christians. Your form of sloppy agopy is not the gospel at all, but your feeble atempt to justify your "youthful mistake" and "bad choice". You can't even admit that you are guilty of murder, and use the excuse that it is legal. All of which is right out of the pro-abort play book. You claim to be pro-life, but use all the borthead excuses to deny you committed murder....go figure....

reply from: joe

Trespasses against you are the ones you forgive. You do not answer for the child that was ripped apart.

reply from: carolemarie

Trespasses against you are the ones you forgive. You do not answer for the child that was ripped apart.
All sin is against GOD, that is why David said he sinned against God and God only.

reply from: 4given

David also said, I am holy and blameless before God. Which is pretty significant considering the depth of his corruption.. (having the husband of the woman he lusted after placed on the front lines of battle to be killed) He is an example of how completely God forgives those of a contrite and broken heart.

reply from: yoda

And there's no such thing as death, right?

reply from: GratiaPlena

Okay, but what about the "no one ever dies, so my baby isn't dead" thing?
Do you agree with that too?
In a spiritual sense, yes. Our God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. This does not belittle the gravity of abortion, however. Many people who die in terrorist attacks live on in Heaven also, but this does not mean that terrorist attacks are in the least morally defensible.

reply from: joe

Trespasses against you are the ones you forgive. You do not answer for the child that was ripped apart.
All sin is against GOD, that is why David said he sinned against God and God only.
This sort of word twisting of someone that you proclaim to follow is blasphemy. Either you follow the words of Christ or not. David will stand judgment with the rest of us.
Jesus is the Messiah. Not David, not Paul any doctrine that contradicts the words of Christ is false.

reply from: sheri

Note to catholics out there: this is why we have/need church doctrine, when you can pull Gods word apart like taffy you can make it seem like there is no such thing as forgiveness!

reply from: carolemarie

I thinnk it is just a Faithman/Joe issue. Everyone else seems to graps the concept of mercy and grace.

reply from: yoda

And there's the thing.... if we are not trying to "belittle the gravity of abortion", why would anyone mention that in reference to their own abortion? Is that not a transparent attempt to lessen the gravity of what they have done?

reply from: yoda

And yet you will not address the question of why you are trying to minimize the gravity of killing your own baby.
If you can lessen the seriousness of what you did by saying your baby "is not dead", why can't others do the same with murders they have committed?

reply from: faithman

I thinnk it is just a Faithman/Joe issue. Everyone else seems to graps the concept of mercy and grace.
I perfectly have the concept of mercy and grace within the totality of scripture, not just cherry picking to self justify "youthful mistakes". Not only do you pervert scripture, but you lie about what I have said. Show me one post where I have said there is no mercy and grace? You are the ones who cherry pick and ignore the justice of God, and his comand that government is to be a terror to an evil doer [which includes believers]. And even though the eternal consequince has been delt with through true repentance by the mercy and truth of Christ, as long as one is on this planet, if one commits murder, one is a murderer. Then you play the pro-abort word twisting game, and even use their language to down play killing womb children. The apostle paul, and the Lord Jesus are in perfect agreement, and you blaspheme the truth of scripture now because it does not agree with your rewrite of truth. Now all you out of order christians, please show me one post where I have denied the forgiveness of God? Show me one post where I do not understand mercy and Grace? What I have shown is that you are out of ballance. .....and to all you catholics, I sugest that you check out the history of your church, and you will find that I am exactly correct. Murderers were given a chance to repent before they were exicuted. This anti-death penalty thing is in direct conflict with church history. Even if a murderer publicly repented, they were still put to death because justice demanded it. All you who have wrongly accused me pervert justice. And you dishonor the memory of the womb child with all your semantical doesy doe. You even use the excuse of the pro-aborts by saying because it is not against the law, abortion is not murder. Now you side with Planned Parenthood against true pro-lifers, because your feelings got hurt for being exposed a phony. I say again false accussers, show me one post where I have denied mercy grace or forgiveness? I have not. And you need to repent of the slander you have slung against me.

reply from: faithman

And yet you will not address the question of why you are trying to minimize the gravity of killing your own baby.
If you can lessen the seriousness of what you did by saying your baby "is not dead", why can't others do the same with murders they have committed?
Oh but you just don't understand yoda. All one has to do is pray a little Jesus prayer, and you get a free walk. We just need to let every murderer, rapist, and child molester who has had a jail house conversion go free. After all, we would not understand forgiveness if we do not let the forgiven go free. .....and of course Planned Parenthood has it right, abortion is not against the law, so it is not really murder. If this is christianity, I think I will join you in being agnostic. At least you guys don't use God as an excuse to pervert justice.

reply from: carolemarie

I think you are misunderstanding what I am attempting to say here. Or more likely I am not explaining myself well.
One of the things that is so hard to do is to walk in the forgiveness that God has given you. I felt guilty and just not good enough, like a second class Christian who God tolerated. I couldn't get past the past. And I would sink into depressions, I felt so bad I wanted to die....and this is not the victorious life that we are suppose to have in Christ.
But the truth is that I was focused on what I had done, not what Christ as done, He defeated death, so my children live, what I did was canceled out. And that is a liberating truth. He says to us behold, I make all things new...and that goes for my children broken bodies, He and only He can restore life and He does and then we are to accept that freedom and walk in it. And He gives you beauty for the ashes, joy for the sorrow and you are free. I am not going to walk in sorrow and shame and accept the title of murderer when God has called me pure and blameless.
And here is another truth, even if you felt abortion was a good choice for you and didn't feel bad about it, if you decided to believe God that abortion was wrong because He said, that is turning from your old ways and that person can be free of the past as well. You are not required to suffer, feel bad, but to have Godly sorrow, which isn't feeling bad about a decision. You get that godly sorrow by looking on the one who was pierced for your transgessions and what your sin cost to be cancelled, that is what you grieve. What your sin did to Jesus.
Now if your not a Christian, I am sure this all sounds nutty. But it is the truth of what God does for weak pathetic people, and He does it because He loves us.
There is a scripture that reads "I will take away the shame of your youth and give you double honor! That is what God does for those who love him. That is what He did for me and will do for any other woman who makes the mistake of believing lies.
The only solution to abortion is the gospel of Jesus. Not trying to shame women, or shoot and kill people but to love them unconditionally and to stand in the gap for them.

reply from: carolemarie

And there's the thing.... if we are not trying to "belittle the gravity of abortion", why would anyone mention that in reference to their own abortion? Is that not a transparent attempt to lessen the gravity of what they have done?
no, it is celebrating what Christ has done for you....the price for my sins wasn't cheap,

reply from: yoda

Okay, so far. A period of guilt and depression, followed by forgiveness and hope, all seem quite reasonable.
Here's where I lose contact with your reasoning. Your guilt may have been canceled out, and your depression may be have been canceled out, but your child's forceful removal from this life on earth was never canceled out. Your child no longer lives on this earth, and that is the whole point. That you cannot ever change, or take back. Our physical death is forever, as far as we know. So how does our spiritual life make the taking of a physical life any less immoral?
No, I understand Christian theology reasonably well.
Okay, fair enough. No problem with that, either.
Perhaps I'm the one who is not expressing himself adequately here. When you say "my child is alive", it sounds so much like when a proabort says "Killing babies is really okay because they go straight to heaven". I'm very uncomfortable with that kind of rationalization. If you can reduce the seriousness of abortion like that, then you can rationalize away the seriousness of the killing of any born Christian, the same way.
There can be no moral distinction made between the killing of the born and the killing of the unborn, if we truly believe that abortion is morally wrong because it kills a living human being. So, do you think that your reasoning applies equally to someone who murders a born Christian? Do they also need not feel guilty about what they have done, if they receive "forgiveness"?

reply from: carolemarie

There can be no moral distinction made between the killing of the born and the killing of the unborn, if we truly believe that abortion is morally wrong because it kills a living human being. So, do you think that your reasoning applies equally to someone who murders a born Christian? Do they also need not feel guilty about what they have done, if they receive "forgiveness"?
Yes. Feeling guilty is rather pointless, it neither changes anything or makes amends.

reply from: faithman

No wounder you are SSSSSOOOOOO mixed up. You have bought into the false doctrine of unconditional love. God's love is not unconditional. His love is the singularly most conditional love that exists. Condition one: you must realize that you were born the enemy of God, and without hope . In you there is no good thing. Man kind is totally depraved. Condition 2, You must surrender to the Lordship of Christ. You must loose your life to gain His. Condition 3, you must be born again by the power of the resurrection. If one does not meet the conditions of God's love and salvation, the full wrath of God abides on the children of disobediance. Don't just cherry pick the third chapter of John, read all the way thru to verse 36. No where in the scripture does the bible teach the false doctrine of unconditional love. It simply does not exist, and is a doctrine of the universalist herecy. SSSSSSOOOOOO answere the question; should every murderer be let out of prison if they pray a Jesus prayer, or do they still owe a debt to sociaty? What about the cop who killed mother and womb child? Should he go free if he proclaims faith in Christ? You killed just as many as he did, and yet you continue to down play your act of murder, and say you get special consideration because it was just a mistake of youth, and after all abortion isn't murder becaus it is leagal. Either abortion is murder or it is not, and just like the cop, even if one finds grace in Christ, by man's law he will always be a murderer while on this planet. Why do you deserve special consideration we do not afford other murderers? Is it because you believe with planned parenthood that womb children are second class citizens and do not deserve the same justice as a born child?

reply from: sheri

Fboy! I thought i was gonna have to read back to find where you accused CM of being a murderer, but you made it easy for me and repeated your innane rantings right here. There is a big difference between abortion and murder in fact its the difference all prolifers are working to change, namely, abortion is LEGAL.
You should know different sins have mitagating factors, and yes i think being young and alone and having someone telling you" its o.k. its legal" all factor into the amount of guilt you have for a sin. Is it still a sin? yes. is the severity lessened? it could very well be. and of course true repentence and a good confession do put you back in a state of grace, and just as Carol does a truely repentent person will do ther best to let God know how truely sorry they are by action and penence.
why should she not go to jail? because jail is a state sactioned penalty for people who break MANs law, if a woman were to procure an abortion after it is illegal she should go to jail but as of now the legality of abortion is just one more thing to confuse a woman into thinking it is o.k. to take her childs life.
as a side note i sincerely hope you do not think your hands are not dripping with the blood of our preborn brethern. As a christian we have a responcibility to "rescue those being dragged to slaughter" and we fail to do that 4000 times a day. so next time your letting someone know just how bad they are take some time to introspect.

reply from: yoda

Okay.... then should they simply acknowledge their guilt, or should they claim are blameless, now that they have been "forgiven"?
And should they be excused from the prescribed penalties of law, if they say they are "forgiven"?

reply from: faithman

You totally misrepresent what is going on here, and now you join PP in saying abortion is not murder because it is legal. Are you going to now try and tell us you never called abortion murder? I understand completely that every american is guilty of abortion, for we the people tolerate it. the cercumstance of murder is taken into consideration at sentancing, but first comes conviction. We have a confessed baby killer comming on this site, and claiming special consideration over those who have killed as well. It is the perversion of justice that bothers me most. If one were truely sorry for their crime against the womb child, they would not flaunt it as a badge of honor to give more wieght to their voice. They would simply be pro-life because it is the right thing to do. And they would not agree with the enemy of the womb child in words that dishonor their memory. If abortion is murder, as many have said on this forum, then those who kill the womb child are, and will be, murderers until they leave this planet. If one were truely sorroful for doing the deed, they would not down play it no matter how forgiven they were. Self justification is not repentance. True repentance would be acknowlaging abortion as the horible crime of murder, and even though forgiven, one must admit that in this temperal time zone, one is a murderer until they leave the planet. Anything less dishonors the memory of the womb child that was killed. That not only makes one a murderer, but also a thief. For you conspire with planned parenthood to steal the personhood of the womb child. You can not have it both ways.

reply from: joe

According the you the Jews were not murdered in the Holocaust (because it was legal). Give me a break.
The pro life movement shows so much disrespect for the unborn that at times I wonder who truly is the enemy.

reply from: sheri

Joe, you know whose side im on, i am here for the babies. Murder is a legal term, sure ive used it to mean unjust killing like the holacost or slavery or abortion is, however murder means unpermitted killing and abortion is state sactioned. look this is a stupid war of words, the real question is about sin and forgiveness.

reply from: joe

The enemy uses false descriptions and labels to deceive the public into killing innocent human life. My concern is when we use their false descriptions we are doing their work.

reply from: yoda

How about for us agnostic, sheri? What's the "real question" for us?

reply from: sheri

Yoda, are you saying you do not believe in sin?

reply from: yoda

I take it you're not familiar with the term "agnostic", sheri. It means that I don't profess faith in a particular religion. Since I'm not a part of the "Christian religion", I don't particularly subscribe to the theology that goes with it, including concepts such as "sin". I prefer to speak in terms of concepts like morality and ethics.

reply from: carolemarie

No wounder you are SSSSSOOOOOO mixed up. You have bought into the false doctrine of unconditional love. God's love is not unconditional. His love is the singularly most conditional love that exists. Condition one: you must realize that you were born the enemy of God, and without hope . In you there is no good thing. Man kind is totally depraved. Condition 2, You must surrender to the Lordship of Christ. You must loose your life to gain His. Condition 3, you must be born again by the power of the resurrection. If one does not meet the conditions of God's love and salvation, the full wrath of God abides on the children of disobediance. Don't just cherry pick the third chapter of John, read all the way thru to verse 36. No where in the scripture does the bible teach the false doctrine of unconditional love. It simply does not exist, and is a doctrine of the universalist herecy. SSSSSSOOOOOO answere the question; should every murderer be let out of prison if they pray a Jesus prayer, or do they still owe a debt to sociaty? What about the cop who killed mother and womb child? Should he go free if he proclaims faith in Christ? You killed just as many as he did, and yet you continue to down play your act of murder, and say you get special consideration because it was just a mistake of youth, and after all abortion isn't murder becaus it is leagal. Either abortion is murder or it is not, and just like the cop, even if one finds grace in Christ, by man's law he will always be a murderer while on this planet. Why do you deserve special consideration we do not afford other murderers? Is it because you believe with planned parenthood that womb children are second class citizens and do not deserve the same justice as a born child?
Where do I say God's love is unconditional? Once you accept Jesus God's love is unconditional, but Jesus is the condition.
There is a big difference between those who commit crimes and those who do legal things. Abortion isn't a crime, it is legal. Abortion is a sin, but that isn't the same thing as a crime. Those who get abortions are not criminals that is the GIGANTIC difference. And if that cop gets saved, then he will not be a murderer. After he does his time for breaking the law he gets to be a regular citizen too.
Your problem is that you want people to pay for what they did that you don't approve of. And God says HE will work justice, not that he needs us to work justice...because we can't.
Because I was a kid, I was easily manipulated and taken advantage of by people who prey on the weak. I was weak and helpless and totally dependant on my 30 year old boyfriend/manager, in a lot of ways, I was a victim.

reply from: faithman

Where do I say God's love is unconditional? Once you accept Jesus God's love is unconditional, but Jesus is the condition.
There is a big difference between those who commit crimes and those who do legal things. Abortion isn't a crime, it is legal. Abortion is a sin, but that isn't the same thing as a crime. Those who get abortions are not criminals that is the GIGANTIC difference. And if that cop gets saved, then he will not be a murderer. After he does his time for breaking the law he gets to be a regular citizen too.
Your problem is that you want people to pay for what they did that you don't approve of. And God says HE will work justice, not that he needs us to work justice...because we can't.
Because I was a kid, I was easily manipulated and taken advantage of by people who prey on the weak. I was weak and helpless and totally dependant on my 30 year old boyfriend/manager, in a lot of ways, I was a victim.
You are simply wrong and you do not agree with scripture. It is a comand of God for us to establish justice.
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man
Mic 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God? 1Ti 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for MURDERS
1Ti 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
Rom 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. .................................................................................................
The scripture is very clear that God has given man the responcibility to establish, and carry out justice. Your post is even in direct conflict with the crap you post here. You say If Cutts pays the price!!!! Well the fact of the matter is that as long as he lives on this planet, the price is he will be recognized as a convicted murderer, and that is only right for the sake of the memory of the two he killed. But you killed just as many, and yet you want special consideration just because the wicked have high jacked our judicial system, and made it legal to kill womb children. You degrade the children you paid an assasin to slaughter, as a "youthful mistake" , and now make yourself the victim while totally ignoring the true victims, and here is the bonus round, you use bort head jargon in doing it!!!!!! You pervert God's word to fit your self justifing your crime, and then want to talk down to us simply because we keep the issue uncluttered from killer mom excuses. That abortion machine sucked more than a baby out, it seems to have collected at least part of your brain. You most assuredly want to try and confuse the issue anyway. When we stop the slaughter, then we will have plenty of time to "console" those who killed them. But the issue is not killer mom who made a "youthful mistake". This issue is first last and always the estabishing of justice for the womb person, and that most assuredly, by the Command of God, is the responcibilty of man no matter how much you want to say to the contrary to cover up the horible deed you chose to do.

reply from: yoda

So, which one is worse, IYO? The guy who breaks a law, or the guy who commits a sin? Remember, you said there was a "gigantic" difference, so they can't be on the same level of "wrongness", right?
If the difference is "GIGANTIC", then which is the "BIG" thing and which is the "LITTLE" thing?
Is breaking the law 'BIG" and committing a sin "LITTLE".... or vice versa?

reply from: sheri

A sin is worse because it is an offence against God, a crime may or may not be.
Look Fboy, here are a few differences that may reduce the culpability of a woman who has procured an abortion, her age and understanding, a 18 year old girl who is told by her doctor ( read god) that this pill is fine to take because the "thing hasnt implanted yet" will be less culpable then a woman who has been educated about life issues but chooses to abort because of selfish reasons.
Also remember there are many other persons involved in the abortion procedure, people this girl may trust, doctors, nurses, parents, boyfriends who will push her to put her instincts aside. These are all mitagating factors.
Why cant you see how detrimental it would be to jail an aborted woman? Do you seek justice or revenge? We jail murderers to protect society from them, their punishment doesnt settle any debts with God, to do that you have to do just what CM did, so what is your beef with her?

reply from: faithman

If you are either to stupid to comprehend, or to illiterate to read my post, then me explaining it for the hundreth time will do you no good. But for the lurkers, here goes. Mitagating factors or second in consideration to whether an act of murder was commited. That comes in sentancing, not in convicting. Detrimental to who? The murderer of a womb child? Why should they not face the same justice as those who kill a born child? And Cm comes on this forum bragging about being a baby killer, then talks down to those of us who have not killed a womb child because we believe that they deserve the same punishment as those who kill born children. What if a Christian kills a born child, then says ooops sorry about that little mistake, but Jesus has forgiven me so I get a free walk? Is that justice? Would we call it revenge to have a jury of their peers prescribe a punishment the jury deemed proper? You ask such stupid twisted questions it ain't even funny. My beef is with anyone who uses borthead language to justify killing womb children, then want to say they are pro-life. My beef is with those who twist and cherry pick the Word of God to justify the evil they do While ignoring the fact that God is a just God, and He has given the responciblity to establish justice on the earth to man. My beef is with those who pervert mercy and forgiveness at the expence of innocent life. My beef is femi-nazis masquerading as christian, usurping authority from men, then want special consideration when they murder their children. My beef is blurring this issue SSSSSSOOOOO much in favor of killer mom, that the child gets lost in the rhetorical fire storm. What about mercy for the child? What about "forgiving" the child for being an inconveniance? How about justice for the child by punishing the evil doers who have committed violence against them? In case you have not noticed, PRO-LIFE IS ABOUT THE CHILD!!!!!!!!!! My beef ist stupid word twisters asking stupid questions, all the while proclaiming to be smarter than anyone else.

reply from: carolemarie

So, which one is worse, IYO? The guy who breaks a law, or the guy who commits a sin? Remember, you said there was a "gigantic" difference, so they can't be on the same level of "wrongness", right?
If the difference is "GIGANTIC", then which is the "BIG" thing and which is the "LITTLE" thing?
Is breaking the law 'BIG" and committing a sin "LITTLE".... or vice versa?
The gigantic difference is one thing is recognized by our laws as bad and deserving of punishment and the other isnt. But to answer your question IMHO I think Sin is worse . You can think for example that your abortion was okay since it was legal, or not a bad thing to do and end up in hell because God doesn't agree with that at all.

reply from: carolemarie

:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?
You don't seem to love kindness at all Faithman, which is required as much as doing justice. And doing justice doesn't mean punishing people. It means living justly before God. I submit that lack of mercy is not doing justice. Jesus, who is our example, bore the sins of another so they could be free. That is mercy. Paul, said that if it were possible, he would give up his salvation for the jews so they could be forgiven. That is mercy. Covering one anothers sin is a mark of a Christian. This eye for an eye legalism is what Jesus warned us against doing. We are to love those who are lost and blind and help them find Jesus. We are not suppose to pick up our bag of rocks and stone sinners, rather help them to find Jesus and mercy. This has nothing to do with not caring about the baby. We try to save their lives but we let God deal with vengence. It isn't our job.

reply from: faithman

HEy idiot, justice comes first. You cant go to the others until you have done the first. I guess you missed the whip in the tempel episode. The mark of a true christian is truely being sorry for the evil one has done, not using the evil one has done as a badge of honor, and useing the language of evil doers to subvert justice for the womb child, nor talking down to those who truely stand for womb life. The scripture also exhorts women not to usurp authority over a man nor indevor to teach the word to them. But of course I am sure you have deleted those words from your feminist bible. It aint vengance stupid, it is about justice. Something you have no concept of. It is not about "stoning sinners", but stopping evil doers. It has everything to do with "not caring about the baby", which you obviously do not.

reply from: sheri

She has repented, back off!
You sniveling, little man have a lot to learn about Gods forgiveness, do you think it is beyond His ability to forgive such a bad sinner? Saint Paul would disagree with you.

reply from: joe

She repented? I will judge her by her words and she clearly has not repented. She wears a pro life mask over her pro choice face. Anybody who disagrees with any effort to stop the slaughter of innocent people is a fake, wanna be pro-lifer who is worthless in this fight. Stop defending the enemy who clearly advocates the murder of children by defending the killers.

reply from: carolemarie

She repented? I will judge her by her words and she clearly has not repented. She wears a pro life mask over her pro choice face. Anybody who disagrees with any effort to stop the slaughter of innocent people is a fake, wanna be pro-lifer who is worthless in this fight. Stop defending the enemy who clearly advocates the murder of children by defending the killers.
I don't even GET this post. Everyone on this board, except you and faithman opposes killing Doctors. And clearly they are not all "fake pro-lifers". And before you tell us how worthless we are in what we do (things like sidewalk counseling, support and help to women in crisis pregnancies) why don't you tell us what you do other than post on a board? Do I hear a big resounding nothing???

reply from: carolemarie

HEy idiot, justice comes first. You cant go to the others until you have done the first. I guess you missed the whip in the tempel episode. The mark of a true christian is truely being sorry for the evil one has done, not using the evil one has done as a badge of honor, and useing the language of evil doers to subvert justice for the womb child, nor talking down to those who truely stand for womb life. The scripture also exhorts women not to usurp authority over a man nor indevor to teach the word to them. But of course I am sure you have deleted those words from your feminist bible. It aint vengance stupid, it is about justice. Something you have no concept of. It is not about "stoning sinners", but stopping evil doers. It has everything to do with "not caring about the baby", which you obviously do not.
My feminist bible? Where did that come from? Aand being a man doesn't make you right or incapable of learning something just because a woman shared it with you.
If you read that chapter, you will see God loves mercy and does justice, but man! Man is a piece of work indeed. Man loves justice and does a little mercy.
I heard a great sermon last Sunday about what repentance is. It is not weeping and crying for what a terrible thing you did. That is wordly sorrow and leads to death, like that poor woman who aborted her twins and hung herself. Godly sorrow is produced by looking on the One who our sin pierced. You look at what your sin cost Jesus, and that breaks your heart with godly sorrow which leads to life.
The justice is God's to work out, not yours not mine, it is HIS. You can trust Him to make everything right. You really need to let go of this anger, it is misplaced and wrong and it is sin. I know that you care about these babies that are killed and it is terrible and sad and so frustrating that we can't stop it....but you can't let what you see day in and day out make you bitter and angry. You need to love those women and doctors just as deeply as those babies, because God is LOVE and He Loves them all.

reply from: yoda

Now there's a reasonable answer. I would have answered the same way, except that I would've said that an "immoral act" is worse than breaking the law, because breaking the law might not be immoral, and immorality is always wrong.
So then, the fact that abortion is (mostly) legal is this country does not really make it any less immoral and/or wrong, does it? Having agreed on that, I'm curious as to why it would be pertinent in any discussion of the immorality of abortion to mention the legality of abortion at all. Do you have any ideas?

reply from: yoda

Okay.... and why is that a "gigantic" difference? Does the legal approval of our society make abortion any less horrible in your eyes?
Okay, then why mention it's legality at all? And why call it a "gigantic" difference if it is still just as bad even IF it is legal?
What's the point of mentioning the legality of abortion at all, while defending your act?

reply from: carolemarie

Okay.... and why is that a "gigantic" difference? Does the legal approval of our society make abortion any less horrible in your eyes?
Okay, then why mention it's legality at all? And why call it a "gigantic" difference if it is still just as bad even IF it is legal?
What's the point of mentioning the legality of abortion at all, while defending your act?
Because I really didn't think it was wrong at the time. It seemed like the most reasonable choice I could have made. It was legal, it wasn't like I had to sneak off to Mexico or anything. It was a medical procedure to me.

reply from: yoda

Oh, my. "I didn't think it was wrong at the time"? And it was "legal"? That's your reasoning for minimizing what you did?
Hey, if you can make flimsy excuses like that for yourself, then surely you must be able to make the same excuses for women who are aborting today, right?
As long as they think that "it isn't wrong", or "the most reasonable choice", or "it's legal now", or "I don't have to sneak off to Mexico", or "it's a medical procedure"........... as long as they think ANY of those things, then it's not "wrong" for any woman today to abort a healthy baby, right?
You can't be hypocritical about this.... if it was "excusable" for you then, it must be "excusable" for all women who do it today, right?

reply from: joe

The majority of pro-life advocates as you pointed out do oppose killing doctors equating them to hypocrites and cowards. How can you claim it is a human life and at the same time oppose protecting it? If the pro life movement had any truth to it abortion would be illegal, how can the government arrest 50% of its citizens (get my point?). What I do is what a majority of pro life advocates do, we stand and pray.....pray and stand while the children are being ripped apart. I am like the majority of pro life advocates a hypocrite but at least I do not go around telling the world what kind of liar I am by dehumanizing the unborn (referencing you). I value human life and least by my words I can speak the truth.

reply from: faithman

HEy idiot, justice comes first. You cant go to the others until you have done the first. I guess you missed the whip in the tempel episode. The mark of a true christian is truely being sorry for the evil one has done, not using the evil one has done as a badge of honor, and useing the language of evil doers to subvert justice for the womb child, nor talking down to those who truely stand for womb life. The scripture also exhorts women not to usurp authority over a man nor indevor to teach the word to them. But of course I am sure you have deleted those words from your feminist bible. It aint vengance stupid, it is about justice. Something you have no concept of. It is not about "stoning sinners", but stopping evil doers. It has everything to do with "not caring about the baby", which you obviously do not.
My feminist bible? Where did that come from? Aand being a man doesn't make you right or incapable of learning something just because a woman shared it with you.
If you read that chapter, you will see God loves mercy and does justice, but man! Man is a piece of work indeed. Man loves justice and does a little mercy.
I heard a great sermon last Sunday about what repentance is. It is not weeping and crying for what a terrible thing you did. That is wordly sorrow and leads to death, like that poor woman who aborted her twins and hung herself. Godly sorrow is produced by looking on the One who our sin pierced. You look at what your sin cost Jesus, and that breaks your heart with godly sorrow which leads to life.
The justice is God's to work out, not yours not mine, it is HIS. You can trust Him to make everything right. You really need to let go of this anger, it is misplaced and wrong and it is sin. I know that you care about these babies that are killed and it is terrible and sad and so frustrating that we can't stop it....but you can't let what you see day in and day out make you bitter and angry. You need to love those women and doctors just as deeply as those babies, because God is LOVE and He Loves them all.
You have absolutely nothing to teach any one that is of value. You pervert God's word to justify the horible act you have commited, and continue to promote that out of ballance theology, while one has posted the scripture to show the true justice of God. You have made false accusations against me by saying I do not love , forgive, or show mercy. I have said repeatedly that I believe in, and reachout to wrong doers quite often. I have produced material that has probly stopped more abortions that just about any thing else out there, and is material you yourself has used. I am all for a soft aproach pre- abortion, but if the deed is done it requires justice for the sake of the memory of the child that has been killed. Any other murderer will be a murderer while still on this planet, that is just simply a fact. But you want special consideration, and want to wear your act of murder as a badge of honor that gives your voice more weight than anybody else. You even use the language of feminist pro-aborts to justify killing your children. Then you want to pervert God's word, take it out of ballance, then usurp authority over men by saying you have something to teach them which is in direct violation of the Bible you claim to believe in. All I see in your posts is your opinion. I have posted scripture that directly shows how out of ballance your false theology is. But you chose to ignore it in your prideful self justified arrogance. You would rather advocate protecting abortionist, and killer moms on their way to the death camp, insted of loving the child that is about to be killed. Why should you care about love, mercy, and forgiveness for the womb child, when you showed absolutely no mercy, love, or kindness for your own womb children? You devalue their memory with your perverted gospel, and your self justification for having killed them. This would end real quick. All you have to do is say that you murdered your children, and even though forgiven, will be a murderer while on this planet. Just simply scrape aside the self justifying crap and admit that womb children are not a "youthful mistake", that to "choose" to get a " legal medical procedure" is actually an act of cold blooded murder commited against the womb child. What choice did you give your children? You took life while you were responcible to protect them at their most vunerable. You are the unloving one. You are the unmerciful one. And now you pervert the mercy of God to excuse your unspeakable act, at the exspence of the memory of the Womb children you have killed. I have killed no one. I have given thousands of dollars, and have donated property across the street from a PP referal clinic to Pro life ministry. I have produced hundreds of thousands of IAAP cards and have distributed them accross the country, and sent the live pictures all over the world in email. I have reached out to those behind bars. But one thing I will not do is give a free walk to a cold blooded, self justified murderer, who wants to pervert the gospel I have dedicated my life to, to cover up the act of killing children. I suggest you take a closer look at the one in the mirror before you accuse anyone of being unloveing, and unmerciful. When you admit that you were totally unmerciful, unkind, and unloving to your own womb children, then maybe you will have any ground to stand on to accuse others of the same. As it stands now, you are the one who needs to get the unloving telephone pole out of your own eye, before you get all concerned about any tooth pick that may be in mine. I have killed no children, can you say that?

reply from: sheri

CM! for pities sake would you stop asking what he does! if i hear him toot his own horn one more time im going to implode!
I still havent heard wether or not he thinks st Paul should be considered a murderer, your question made the perfect parallel, not that it matters you do not need his forgiveness you have Gods.

reply from: faithman

Well if you actually read the writtings of Paul, you would see that he grieved over the fact that he had presicuted the church his whole life. He never tried to sweep it under the rug, nor tried to justify his actions in anyway. SSSSSSOOOOOO the actions of a committed pro-womb child would make you implode? Only the actions of a feminist baby killer count? .....and by the way, this is not about forgiveness, this is about justice for the womb child. Any other murderer meets justice for their crimes except killers of womb children. So I guess Bundy should have gone free, as he was reported to have converted to Christ before he was exicuted? Carla Fay Tucker was converted, won many to christ, then payed for the act of pick axeing folk in there sleep for drug money. Though eternal consiquence is washed away by Christ's blood, the temperal consiquence needs to be faced. And if one murders, then one is a murderer as long as they live on this planet. St. Paul would not have a prob with that at all, as that was his testimony until he died.

reply from: carolemarie

Oh, my. "I didn't think it was wrong at the time"? And it was "legal"? That's your reasoning for minimizing what you did?
Hey, if you can make flimsy excuses like that for yourself, then surely you must be able to make the same excuses for women who are aborting today, right?
As long as they think that "it isn't wrong", or "the most reasonable choice", or "it's legal now", or "I don't have to sneak off to Mexico", or "it's a medical procedure"........... as long as they think ANY of those things, then it's not "wrong" for any woman today to abort a healthy baby, right?
You can't be hypocritical about this.... if it was "excusable" for you then, it must be "excusable" for all women who do it today, right?
The only way I know how to answer this is below:
I would never in a million years do a driveby, even if I really hated someone because it is against the law, and that law cause me to govern my impulses.
Abortion is legal and that built in wall the law imposes isn't there, so it becomes a matter of personal choice, or personal morality. My morality made it okay to make that choice.
I was wrong. That is why I am not a murderer, but a sinner.
If I did a driveby I would be both a murderer and a sinner.

reply from: carolemarie

HEy idiot, justice comes first. You cant go to the others until you have done the first. I guess you missed the whip in the tempel episode. The mark of a true christian is truely being sorry for the evil one has done, not using the evil one has done as a badge of honor, and useing the language of evil doers to subvert justice for the womb child, nor talking down to those who truely stand for womb life. The scripture also exhorts women not to usurp authority over a man nor indevor to teach the word to them. But of course I am sure you have deleted those words from your feminist bible. It aint vengance stupid, it is about justice. Something you have no concept of. It is not about "stoning sinners", but stopping evil doers. It has everything to do with "not caring about the baby", which you obviously do not.
My feminist bible? Where did that come from? Aand being a man doesn't make you right or incapable of learning something just because a woman shared it with you.
If you read that chapter, you will see God loves mercy and does justice, but man! Man is a piece of work indeed. Man loves justice and does a little mercy.
I heard a great sermon last Sunday about what repentance is. It is not weeping and crying for what a terrible thing you did. That is wordly sorrow and leads to death, like that poor woman who aborted her twins and hung herself. Godly sorrow is produced by looking on the One who our sin pierced. You look at what your sin cost Jesus, and that breaks your heart with godly sorrow which leads to life.
The justice is God's to work out, not yours not mine, it is HIS. You can trust Him to make everything right. You really need to let go of this anger, it is misplaced and wrong and it is sin. I know that you care about these babies that are killed and it is terrible and sad and so frustrating that we can't stop it....but you can't let what you see day in and day out make you bitter and angry. You need to love those women and doctors just as deeply as those babies, because God is LOVE and He Loves them all.
You have absolutely nothing to teach any one that is of value. You pervert God's word to justify the horible act you have commited, and continue to promote that out of ballance theology, while one has posted the scripture to show the true justice of God. You have made false accusations against me by saying I do not love , forgive, or show mercy. I have said repeatedly that I believe in, and reachout to wrong doers quite often. I have produced material that has probly stopped more abortions that just about any thing else out there, and is material you yourself has used. I am all for a soft aproach pre- abortion, but if the deed is done it requires justice for the sake of the memory of the child that has been killed. Any other murderer will be a murderer while still on this planet, that is just simply a fact. But you want special consideration, and want to wear your act of murder as a badge of honor that gives your voice more weight than anybody else. You even use the language of feminist pro-aborts to justify killing your children. Then you want to pervert God's word, take it out of ballance, then usurp authority over men by saying you have something to teach them which is in direct violation of the Bible you claim to believe in. All I see in your posts is your opinion. I have posted scripture that directly shows how out of ballance your false theology is. But you chose to ignore it in your prideful self justified arrogance. You would rather advocate protecting abortionist, and killer moms on their way to the death camp, insted of loving the child that is about to be killed. Why should you care about love, mercy, and forgiveness for the womb child, when you showed absolutely no mercy, love, or kindness for your own womb children? You devalue their memory with your perverted gospel, and your self justification for having killed them. This would end real quick. All you have to do is say that you murdered your children, and even though forgiven, will be a murderer while on this planet. Just simply scrape aside the self justifying crap and admit that womb children are not a "youthful mistake", that to "choose" to get a " legal medical procedure" is actually an act of cold blooded murder commited against the womb child. What choice did you give your children? You took life while you were responcible to protect them at their most vunerable. You are the unloving one. You are the unmerciful one. And now you pervert the mercy of God to excuse your unspeakable act, at the exspence of the memory of the Womb children you have killed. I have killed no one. I have given thousands of dollars, and have donated property across the street from a PP referal clinic to Pro life ministry. I have produced hundreds of thousands of IAAP cards and have distributed them accross the country, and sent the live pictures all over the world in email. I have reached out to those behind bars. But one thing I will not do is give a free walk to a cold blooded, self justified murderer, who wants to pervert the gospel I have dedicated my life to, to cover up the act of killing children. I suggest you take a closer look at the one in the mirror before you accuse anyone of being unloveing, and unmerciful. When you admit that you were totally unmerciful, unkind, and unloving to your own womb children, then maybe you will have any ground to stand on to accuse others of the same. As it stands now, you are the one who needs to get the unloving telephone pole out of your own eye, before you get all concerned about any tooth pick that may be in mine. I have killed no children, can you say that?
1. Well, I think your theology is out of balance and posted scripture to show you. 2. You show no mercy, kindness or forgivness to me or anyone on this board who disagrees with something you say. So I don't think it is slander to state what you do.
3. Nobody has denied that you try to stop abortion and that you care about the babies who are scheduled to die. So do I, so do others on this board. I disagree with you on the fact you are okay with killing born people, like Dr! They are former womb kids, so who are you to applaude those who kill them? I disagree with your obsession to punish people who sin rather then letting God handle it. And I disagree with your trying to make abortion and murdering born people equivalents when they are different.
4. What authority have I taken other than that which is every believers right, to share the Gospel!
5. I am NOT going to claim to be something that I am not to suit you. I am a Christian, not a forgiven anything. Or if I have to do that so does every other Christian. You have to call yourself a forgiven __________and name your sins as well. And since nobody does that, why should I have to?
God so loved the WORLD that He sent His only beloved son to die that who ever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life!

reply from: faithman

There is the rub. Killing the womb child is exactly the same as killing the born. It is your inability to realize that, that has perverted your thinking. You make this about what it is not. You accuse me of what you are guilty of. You show no love mercy or kindness to the womb child, and only want to exuse your evil deeds as nothing more than a "youthful mistake", and a "bad choice". Neglegent homoside, and man slaughter is still murder. Even if you acted on bad information, you still killed innocent life, which is an act of murder. And if you truely had one ounce of compassion for the womb child, you would still be broken and contrite about killing them, not arrogant, and self justified behind your perversion of God's word. You have shown me nothing in the word that contradicts what I have said, while I have shown repeatedly that your crap is out of ballance in the totallity of scripture. You want to quote John 3:16, and ignore the rest of the chapter. Come now, why don't you post what 17 thru 21 says, or what verse 36 says? Maybe because it refutes the mess you post here. What about Romans 13 that says man's government is to be a terror to evil? But according to you, we should let all evil doers go if they pray a Jesus prayer. You would totally pervert justice, just as you have the gospel, and make all innocent life a prey to evil, and would even protect the evil doers while they kill the innocent. this all because you want to cover up the evil you committed against the womb child. And yes I would have to put my wrong doings in your blank, if I flaunted them as a badge of honor, that gave my voice more weight. I have not. And neither should you. If you don't want people rightly identifying you as a murderer, don't bring up the fact that you murdered womb children. But if you dare to post, down play, and excuse, killing children, pervert the word, and even use borthead language to do it, exspect true pro-lifers to call you on it.

reply from: carolemarie

I have repented and have said I regret my abortions repeatedly.
But I am not a murderer I am forgiven and clear of guilt, why do you insist that I live in bondage? My sins are no more, God threw them behind his back and if I try to get them, I gotta go through Him to get them!
The justice was taken care of at the Cross. Jesus paid the price due and I don't have to. That is the gospel message!
JUSTICE HAS BEEN SATISFIED--THAT IS WHAT JESUS DID ON THE CROSS! There is nothing I can add to that sacrifice.

reply from: faithman

In the spirit that may be true. But on this earth, you committed murder, which makes you a murderer while in this temperal time zone. And if you truely cared about the memory of those you so unmercifully, unlovingly, unkindly killed, you would quit trying to justify your actions.

reply from: yoda

Then please answer this question: if it were legal to do drive-bys, would you say it was more immoral to have an abortion than to do a drive-by shooting? Or vice versa? Which would be more immoral?
Really? If it made it "okay", then why do you regret it now? Did it change from being "okay" to "not okay"?
Understood. Technically, no legal abortion is classified as "murder".
But what I can't get comfortable with is why you seem to be saying that the legal status of abortion makes it "less immoral", or "less wrong" than if it was illegal. Do you really believe that?

reply from: yoda

Oh now, that's not good.
NOW you are saying that there is a moral difference between the victim of an elective abortion and the victim of a murder. In other words, you are agreeing with the proaborts who say that birth gives a human being the moral right to life.
If the victim is the same (an innocent human being), then the act of killing them is the same, morally. You've got to make up your mind here whether you're going to discriminate against the unborn or not.

reply from: faithman

Oh now, that's not good.
NOW you are saying that there is a moral difference between the victim of an elective abortion and the victim of a murder. In other words, you are agreeing with the proaborts who say that birth gives a human being the moral right to life.
If the victim is the same (an innocent human being), then the act of killing them is the same, morally. You've got to make up your mind here whether you're going to discriminate against the unborn or not.
The difference to her is that she killed a womb child or two, but hasn't killed a born person that we know of. So naturaly she wouldn't count her evil deeds as immoral as the evil actions of another. The self justified look into a glass darkly, and lack the decernment to recognize the evil staring back in the mirror.

reply from: carolemarie

Then please answer this question: if it were legal to do drive-bys, would you say it was more immoral to have an abortion than to do a drive-by shooting? Or vice versa? Which would be more immoral?
They are about the same, except that the driveby was motived by hate of a specific person and abortion is not motivated by hating a baby. But they are morally the same thing.
Really? If it made it "okay", then why do you regret it now? Did it change from being "okay" to "not okay"?
I am not 15 anymore
Understood. Technically, no legal abortion is classified as "murder".
Good that is my main issue with the whole comparison of the two things.
But what I can't get comfortable with is why you seem to be saying that the legal status of abortion makes it "less immoral", or "less wrong" than if it was illegal. Do you really believe that?
If it is against the law, people know it is wrong and don't get sucked into doing it.
If it is legal it is easy to fall into beliving that it is okay.

reply from: sheri

Yoda, she is expaining what was going though her head at the time of the abortion, cant you put yourself in her place and understand how the legality of the issue would bear so forcefully on someone in that situation.
The morality and the legality are two very seperate things. And try to remember she had probably thought very little about the whole abortion question untill it was afecting her directly, we have our heads full of it every day so maybe we forget that.

reply from: carolemarie

Oh now, that's not good.
NOW you are saying that there is a moral difference between the victim of an elective abortion and the victim of a murder. In other words, you are agreeing with the proaborts who say that birth gives a human being the moral right to life.
If the victim is the same (an innocent human being), then the act of killing them is the same, morally. You've got to make up your mind here whether you're going to discriminate against the unborn or not.
Point taken. There isn't a really a moral difference between the two things. They are both the same.

reply from: carolemarie

In the spirit that may be true. But on this earth, you committed murder, which makes you a murderer while in this temperal time zone. And if you truely cared about the memory of those you so unmercifully, unlovingly, unkindly killed, you would quit trying to justify your actions.
So you are saying if I am really sorry then I have to say I am a murderer, perhaps sign my post, ex-murderer carolemarie? That would be the correct way to do things, perhaps open a vein or two? To make sure that I never forget for one minute what a terrible person I am and how my children suffered and how wicked I am? Maybe hang dead baby pictures in my house and meditate on how I did that? Would that satisfy the price you want paid?
I can't pay any price that would make up even remotely for what I did. That is why God paid it for me. Because He loves me and rescued me from the pit and put my feet on solid rock...I am His beloved and the apple of His eye. So when you are mean to me, your mean to His beloved. I am justified and pure and blameless now. Because the price was paid and justice satisfied. So I can talk about this topic, because He has freed me from the shame and guilt. I can defend my sisters who are trapped in sin, and need kindness to get out of that pit. Abortion is a destination that sin takes you too. It doesn't happen in a vaccum. If you really want to help see it stopped you need to practice mercy and love those who are entangled in sin.

reply from: joe

LOL. Stay in the kitchen. We need strength in this war.

reply from: faithman

In the spirit that may be true. But on this earth, you committed murder, which makes you a murderer while in this temperal time zone. And if you truely cared about the memory of those you so unmercifully, unlovingly, unkindly killed, you would quit trying to justify your actions.
So you are saying if I am really sorry then I have to say I am a murderer, perhaps sign my post, ex-murderer carolemarie? That would be the correct way to do things, perhaps open a vein or two? To make sure that I never forget for one minute what a terrible person I am and how my children suffered and how wicked I am? Maybe hang dead baby pictures in my house and meditate on how I did that? Would that satisfy the price you want paid?
I can't pay any price that would make up even remotely for what I did. That is why God paid it for me. Because He loves me and rescued me from the pit and put my feet on solid rock...I am His beloved and the apple of His eye. So when you are mean to me, your mean to His beloved. I am justified and pure and blameless now. Because the price was paid and justice satisfied. So I can talk about this topic, because He has freed me from the shame and guilt. I can defend my sisters who are trapped in sin, and need kindness to get out of that pit. Abortion is a destination that sin takes you too. It doesn't happen in a vaccum. If you really want to help see it stopped you need to practice mercy and love those who are entangled in sin.
And when you falsely accuse me of being unloving you accuse His beloved as well. And you assume alot without knowing what it is I do. Sheri needs not read this post for her head's sake, but you wrongly accuse me of being unmerciful, when I have opened my own house up to those in crisis. I have done hospice work as a chaplin, and do alot of prisoner work as well. The poperty I bought with my own money accross the street from a PP referal clinic was a duplex which I used to house the homeless crack heads no one else wanted to deal with. Most of my ministry is loving the unlovables, so don't assume to even come close to calling me unloving. But mercy has no place to land until justice is established. Anyone who does real ministry is required by law to report child abuse, which could get someone tagged as a sex ofender for the rest of their life. Now you would call that unmerciful. But those who do real work, and understand justice, realize that the first priority is to protect the innocent. I raised my right hand and swore to uphold and protect the constitution as a member of the United States Coast Guard. Our primary mission was to save lives and poperty as international fire and recue. But we were also commissioned law enforcement officers in enternational waters. That means we were to stop evil doers using what ever means nessisary. One can not exstend mercy to those who have been killed by evil doers, or are about to be killed by the same. Justice is what makes mercy posible. That is the way it is in temporal life, as well as in the spirit. You falsly accuse me of being unmerciful. We pulled burnt men off of a deralict oil tanker that flew under lithowanian colors to avoid US standards. All I could do for some of them was hold their hand while they died of third degree burns. A whole bunch of folk went to prison over that one, and were tagged as murderers for the rest of their life. Don't try to tell me that was unmerciful. I looked at pictures of chopped up babies, and the policeman in me cries out for justice, as the recuer in me stands broken hearted that there was one more I could not help. You are just as guilty as the owners of that ship who were neglegent with the lives they were responcible to protect from harm. You want mercy for yourself at the exspence of the memory of the womb children you so calusly call a "youthful mistake" and a "bad choice". DAMN IT THEY WERE CHILDREN NOT A CHOICE!!!!! ....and yes, what I need to hear from you is that thank God for forgiveness, but you murdered children, and though forgiven, you are a forgiven murderer. And if you were truely repentant, insted of self justifying, you would have no problem with that at all. Until pro-life can cleans it's own house of this perverted justice, the children die. That is something neither the policeman nor the recuer in me can tolerate. You are the enemy of the womb child, both in word and deed. Any body with half a lick of sence can very clearly see that. Other wise you would be in morning with the rest of us over the children you killed.

reply from: sheri

How dare you say she is not in morning over her babies? You bait her then accuse her with her own attempts at self defence. You are shameless.
St paul said" i have won the race, i have fought the good fight." he considered himself one of the apostiles, he rightly chastised and corrected St Peter, the first Pope, he did not let the sins of his past stop him from considering himself a child of God, forgiven by a merciful Savior.
And if you cant muster a little humility and apolagize to CM for being so mean then why dont you just stop posting anything here and go back to walking on water.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Are you sure about that?
I thought the first Pope was described in Acts 8:9-24. "But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one; to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God."
Early Catholism was all about adopting pagan rituals, whoring around with man's governments, and shedding the blood of the saints.

reply from: carolemarie

When I was arrested, and charged with breaking a law, I had a trial and was found guilty and sentanced. After I did the time, I went back to court and had my record expunged. That had the effect of making it clean. I legally and truthfully can say that I have never been arrested. If you run a criminal background check it comes back clear.
That is what Jesus did for my sins as well. I am simply forgiven. It is as like it had never happen. So, since I have already been forgiven I have nothing to be guilty about. It is like it never happen. So I am NOT a murderer. I am simply a Christian.
Mercy and justice meet in Jesus, he had mercy on me and worked justice for my sins, and they are no more.
Your error is that you don't think what Jesus did on the cross worked justice for all those bad choices I made including abortion. It did. So I don't have anything to feel bad about anymore. You are letting your emotion sway your theology instead of letting your theology rule your emotions.
I hope I explained this clearly enough for you to understand.

reply from: carolemarie

In the spirit that may be true. But on this earth, you committed murder, which makes you a murderer while in this temperal time zone. And if you truely cared about the memory of those you so unmercifully, unlovingly, unkindly killed, you would quit trying to justify your actions.
So you are saying if I am really sorry then I have to say I am a murderer, perhaps sign my post, ex-murderer carolemarie? That would be the correct way to do things, perhaps open a vein or two? To make sure that I never forget for one minute what a terrible person I am and how my children suffered and how wicked I am? Maybe hang dead baby pictures in my house and meditate on how I did that? Would that satisfy the price you want paid?
I can't pay any price that would make up even remotely for what I did. That is why God paid it for me. Because He loves me and rescued me from the pit and put my feet on solid rock...I am His beloved and the apple of His eye. So when you are mean to me, your mean to His beloved. I am justified and pure and blameless now. Because the price was paid and justice satisfied. So I can talk about this topic, because He has freed me from the shame and guilt. I can defend my sisters who are trapped in sin, and need kindness to get out of that pit. Abortion is a destination that sin takes you too. It doesn't happen in a vaccum. If you really want to help see it stopped you need to practice mercy and love those who are entangled in sin.
And when you falsely accuse me of being unloving you accuse His beloved as well. And you assume alot without knowing what it is I do. Sheri needs not read this post for her head's sake, but you wrongly accuse me of being unmerciful, when I have opened my own house up to those in crisis. I have done hospice work as a chaplin, and do alot of prisoner work as well. The poperty I bought with my own money accross the street from a PP referal clinic was a duplex which I used to house the homeless crack heads no one else wanted to deal with. Most of my ministry is loving the unlovables, so don't assume to even come close to calling me unloving. But mercy has no place to land until justice is established. Anyone who does real ministry is required by law to report child abuse, which could get someone tagged as a sex ofender for the rest of their life. Now you would call that unmerciful. But those who do real work, and understand justice, realize that the first priority is to protect the innocent. I raised my right hand and swore to uphold and protect the constitution as a member of the United States Coast Guard. Our primary mission was to save lives and poperty as international fire and recue. But we were also commissioned law enforcement officers in enternational waters. That means we were to stop evil doers using what ever means nessisary. One can not exstend mercy to those who have been killed by evil doers, or are about to be killed by the same. Justice is what makes mercy posible. That is the way it is in temporal life, as well as in the spirit. You falsly accuse me of being unmerciful. We pulled burnt men off of a deralict oil tanker that flew under lithowanian colors to avoid US standards. All I could do for some of them was hold their hand while they died of third degree burns. A whole bunch of folk went to prison over that one, and were tagged as murderers for the rest of their life. Don't try to tell me that was unmerciful. I looked at pictures of chopped up babies, and the policeman in me cries out for justice, as the recuer in me stands broken hearted that there was one more I could not help. You are just as guilty as the owners of that ship who were neglegent with the lives they were responcible to protect from harm. You want mercy for yourself at the exspence of the memory of the womb children you so calusly call a "youthful mistake" and a "bad choice". DAMN IT THEY WERE CHILDREN NOT A CHOICE!!!!! ....and yes, what I need to hear from you is that thank God for forgiveness, but you murdered children, and though forgiven, you are a forgiven murderer. And if you were truely repentant, insted of self justifying, you would have no problem with that at all. Until pro-life can cleans it's own house of this perverted justice, the children die. That is something neither the policeman nor the recuer in me can tolerate. You are the enemy of the womb child, both in word and deed. Any body with half a lick of sence can very clearly see that. Other wise you would be in morning with the rest of us over the children you killed.
I am pro-life! I have helped save lots of babies and helped their moms over the years. I am hardly the enemy of the pre-born child. Where do you get this stuff?
Everything works together for the good of those who love God, even the abortions.

reply from: yoda

Look, I'll grant you that it's possible that a very few very young girls are actually duped into believing the lies of the baby killers, and I'll also grant you that you may actually be one of those. I have no way of knowing any different.
But that does not make an abortion any less morally evil for the typical woman, who may be getting her second or third abortion, and knows quite well that she's killing her baby.... but just doesn't care.

reply from: yoda

Well, sort of... (put myself in her place), but not entirely.
What's most important to me here is that we do not in any way endorse the notion that the approval of society (in the form of "legality") in any way lessens the immorality of elective abortion.
So, if some woman gets it into her head that the legality of abortion makes it "less evil", then to me that notion itself is highly immoral, and does not lessen the immorality of what she has done. In fact, it may actually make it worse..... that she put society's approval ahead of her own heart, and ahead of her baby's life.

reply from: yoda

Carole, please!! I think I understand what you are trying to say here about the Christian concept of forgiveness, but use a better example, please!
You CANNOT "truthfully" say that you've never been arrested, by your own words!! All that you can say is that there is NO LEGAL RECORD OF IT!!
Please be a little more respectful of the word "truth".

reply from: carolemarie

Well, yes your correct. I guess I mean I don't get the consequences of someone who was convicted and get to live like it never happen.
But I am glad you get the point of what I was trying to say.

reply from: sander

All I can say in response to the exchange between Faithman and Carolemarie is I'm not filling in any blank! Sheesh....my head is spinning over that exchange!
Carol, I thank God with you that He has indeed forgiven you and forgotten your sins, I can thank Him for you because I'm so glad He's done the same for me and ALL those who have put their trust in His redemptive work on the Cross of Calvary! He paid the price in FULL and then some. I heard a preacher once say it this way, if you had 1,000 dollars of debt and NO way to pay it, God came along and handed you a million dollars and said, that will cover it! He more than paid the price. I love, love the scripture that says, "now therefore there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ"....excuse me while I celebrate that truth!
Now, I also see Faithman's viewpoint...well, not as cleary as I'd like, but I think I know what he's saying. God does indeed believe in "justice", it's vital in His view, and justice He will have. There's no place for vengance in the Christian that's for sure, but justice is important to God. I think he's saying that if abortion wasn't legal and you were prosecuted for the crime the tag of that crime would follow you in this world, but not the next.
Carry on....I'm going to go take an asprin!

reply from: joe

I have a question for you carole. Would you extend your mercy and forgiveness to a person who aborted a abortion doctor and later repented? Would he be in heaven with those mothers you counsel?

reply from: carolemarie

You mean killed an abortion Doctor and repented later?
Yes they deserve to be treated with mercy and forgiveness, but they would probably get it from inside the jail since they broke the law.

reply from: joe

So he would go to heaven?

reply from: carolemarie

If you repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your Savior you go to heaven. So if this person repented and asked Jesus to forgive him, then yes, he would go to heaven.
Do you think he wouldn't?

reply from: carolemarie

Look, I'll grant you that it's possible that a very few very young girls are actually duped into believing the lies of the baby killers, and I'll also grant you that you may actually be one of those. I have no way of knowing any different.
But that does not make an abortion any less morally evil for the typical woman, who may be getting her second or third abortion, and knows quite well that she's killing her baby.... but just doesn't care.
It would be dishonest of me to claim victim status. I knew what I was doing was wrong and I went ahead and did it anyways.
But I know lots of girls who really didn't think it was anything more than starting their period again. They were told it wasn't a baby yet and believed it.

reply from: joe

I needed clarification on your position since many Christians hold a hostile view when someone kills the born and a lenient view when someone kills the unborn.
God is merciful.
I know you disagree but defending the innocent is not what I regard as sin. I am not saying this to debate or argue but to state my position.

reply from: faithman

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
The Lord draws close to the broken and contrite, and resists the proud. We do not continue in sin so that grace may abound. Paul, though forgiven, never down played, nor ignored the fact that he persicuted the church before his conversion. He always included it in his life testimony. And he most assurredly did not use the language of the Romans to self justify his actions. The problem we have here, is that the post abortive agenda is blurring the focus off of the womb child. This so called "pro-lifer" has even used the borthead excuses to self justify killing womb children, and is now sweeping the memory of the child away, with the perversion of God's justice, and salvation. The eternal punishment of the act is delt with at calvary. But if one were truely repentant, and were truely practicing Godly sorrow, one would not sweep away the memory of God's gifts of children as "youthful mistakes", and "legal choices". The first thing one must give up to have a true experiance in Christ is self presivation. You can not save your life and have the life of Christ. In me there is no good thing, that is in my flesh. In spirit I am born again, and sealed in the perfect image of Christ. In my soul and body, I still bear the image of our common ancester Adam. As long as we are in this temperal time zone, we struggle with sin that so easily besets us, and we suffer the consiquence our actions bring. The Bible very clearly teaches that justice is for the believer as well as the unbeliever. Mercy is not getting what we deserve. But one must admit that you actually deserve justice to obtain mercy. If the post abortive were truely repentant of killing the womb child, They would have no problem saying that they murdered a helpless child, deserve to be punished as any murderer does. I am all for being thankful for the mercy of God to change eternal destiny thru the crucified Christ. But what I will not do, is give a free walk to the arrogant, self justified, who are more invested in their self image at the exspence of the womb child. Two children were killed. And it seems that it bothers some more than the one who did the deed. Anyone who can so easily sweep away the memory of the true victims, in an atempt to preserve self images, undermines the issue of womb life. They have become a deceptive, self deluded enemy of womb life. They may be even more dangerous than Planned Parenthood, as they bring the very justifications of killing the preborn, and try to make it main stream "pro-life". I am all for the mercy aproach before the deed is done. But when a child has been brutally slaughtered, and one is truely repentant, then they would have absolutely no problem in admitting to be a murderer while on this planet. They would most assuredly honor the memory of the one murdered, not sweep them away as nothing, in theology that is not rightly divided, and is simply a perversion to self preserve image.

reply from: carolemarie

If they repent, (agree with God that what they did was wrong) then He is faithful and just to clean them of all unrighteousness. They will be forgiven and go to heaven.
The act is wrong and if they don't repent for that act then they will go to hell. They can't hold on to believing that it was a good act when God says it isn't. I would go as far as to say that they don't have to feel bad that they did it, but they have to agree with God that He says it is wrong. They can have sorrow not for what they did, but for what Christ had to pay to have it erased, to have that debt cleared. Because He decides what is wrong and isn't wrong, not us.

reply from: faithman

Once again you pervert the word to self justify. How can one not feel bad about the crime, and yet feel bad about the one who actually paid the price? That is just plain stupid. The eternal debt is cleared, but if one is truely sorrowful for doing what God says is evil, they will most assuredly feel bad for having done the deed, and will Do as the apostle Paul did, and testify to the fact that they deserve the punishment of God, not His mercy and grace provided at such a high price. You not only devalue the womb child, but now you devalue the shed blood of Christ. You make God your pastsy, and flaunt the evil you have done as a position to talk down to others. Killing womb children is no pro-life badge of honor, and does not give your voice more wieght. You pervert justice, and God's word, and exspect us to think that is wounderful?

reply from: yoda

It's impossible to know for sure what's in your best friend's heart, much less in a stranger's heart. But in my opinion, many young women and men accept the lies of the proaborts all too willingly, as if they were desperate for some fig leaf of deceit to hide behind while they kill their child. Others may be genuinely deceived, but I think that those are rare.

reply from: carolemarie

Godly sorrow isn't about US feeling bad because we did something That is worldly sorrow and it leads to death and depression etc...Godly sorrow is arrived at by looking upon the one who was pierced for our sins, the price He paid breaks our hearts and we grieve for what our sin did to Him. That is why you mourn your sin that it cost Jesus so much. That alone produces repentance that is acceptable to God.
There is no real reason not to have an abortion if you don't believe in God. With out God there anything is permissible because nothing ultimately matters.

reply from: yoda

Now, you're getting on my fighting side.
While I don't number myself among the atheist camp, I can tell you flat out that you are very, very wrong. One need respect nothing more complicated than common decency to oppose the elective killing of innocent human beings. Simple justice and fairness demands that great big people not be cruel or destructive towards helpless babies.
There is EVERY reason to oppose abortion, no matter what god or religion you follow....or don't follow.... and the fact that prolifers exist in all those groups, as well as atheists, is testament to that fact.
To claim an exclusive right to oppose baby killing is just insane to me, regardless of your religion. Your religion does not give you the right to exclude anyone from being prolife.

reply from: carolemarie

Now, you're getting on my fighting side.
While I don't number myself among the atheist camp, I can tell you flat out that you are very, very wrong. One need respect nothing more complicated than common decency to oppose the elective killing of innocent human beings. Simple justice and fairness demands that great big people not be cruel or destructive towards helpless babies.
There is EVERY reason to oppose abortion, no matter what god or religion you follow....or don't follow.... and the fact that prolifers exist in all those groups, as well as atheists, is testament to that fact.
To claim an exclusive right to oppose baby killing is just insane to me, regardless of your religion. Your religion does not give you the right to exclude anyone from being prolife.
I think you are misunderstanding me...I am not claiming an exclusive right, I am just saying with a standard you have boundries. I am the kind of person who needs those or I will just do as I please. You don't and apparently have interier boundries, but I think more people are like me and lack them. If there are no boundries, either interior or external then you can do what you want. Not everyone thinks abortion is bad or that it is bad to kill babies. That lack of boundry thinking and living results in thinking like that(things are bad or good based on what makes you happiest)

reply from: yoda

Personally, I know quite a few people who have "strong personal boundaries" that do not originate from their religion. As you say, some of us have boundaries and some don't, but some of those that don't also claim to be "good Christians", and claim to believe in God, for whatever that's worth.
But to get back to your statement, "There is no real reason not to have an abortion if you don't believe in God", I still disagree emphatically. Compassion, empathy, kindness, and simple human decency are all very good reasons not to kill babies, whether or not you have a religion. Killing babies is simply the most despicable thing that a human can ever do, IMO.

reply from: faithman

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
You are contradicting yourself in the same post and in almost the very same sentance. The scripture does not back up your twisted thinking. Your opinion is meaningless. Quit projecting it over what the scripture actually says.

reply from: sheri

The gospel last Sunday ended with the pharisees throwing the man born blind out of the temple and saying " you were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?"
It bothered them to have someone they considered to be a sinner tell them anything. I wonder if the littlest pharisee is paying attention.

reply from: faithman

Not being a pharisee I wouldn't know. Maybe you should ask the one looking back at you in the mirror? The message was obviously preached to you, not to someone else.

reply from: carolemarie

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
You are contradicting yourself in the same post and in almost the very same sentance. The scripture does not back up your twisted thinking. Your opinion is meaningless. Quit projecting it over what the scripture actually says.
I will be happy to send you the scriptural backup later today. My question to you is why do you think that I am your enemy? I just don't get it...

reply from: faithman

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
You are contradicting yourself in the same post and in almost the very same sentance. The scripture does not back up your twisted thinking. Your opinion is meaningless. Quit projecting it over what the scripture actually says.
I will be happy to send you the scriptural backup later today. My question to you is why do you think that I am your enemy? I just don't get it...
Because you are just to stupid to get it. You come on this forum running your mouth how your voice has more wieght because you killed a few, you dishonor the memory of every womb child that has been killed with your perversion of justice and the word of God, you devalue womb life as a 'youthful mistake", and a "bad choice", and you have the audasity to ask why you are my enemy? This issue is about the child, not murderers who want a free walk. You take the focus off of the womb child to promote your personal agenda then play dumb about why your crap would upset real pro-lifers? Don't bother posting any more scripture taken out of context until you address the fact that you haven't a clue what Godly sorrow means. I have posted the direct scripture, and you ignore it, because it blows your take on it totally out of the water............................................................................................................................................................................................................2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Now address the issue from the direct quoted scripture, not your cherry picking scripture out of context to suport your perverted doctrine.

reply from: carolemarie

I hadn't time to answer you- I had to study for mid-terms and vote.
1. I care about abortion very much. It has deeply impacted my life and I don't want to see anyone else make the same mistakes. It is a choice that will break your heart and ruin your life.
2. My opinon is just as valid as anyone elses who is prolife.
3. I never claimed that having an abortion makes you morally more qualified to talk about abortion, that is your spin on things.
4. I also believe that to suceed you need to reach the 55 million women who have chose abortion and you can't do that calling them names. It isn't helpful, it won't help them change their minds. To be able to accept that abortion is wrong you have to feel safe in exploring that idea, and you can't if people are calling you horrible names.
5. Abortion IS a mistake and a bad choice and it doesn't dishonor anyone to state that. ...It doesn't make you more qualified to talk about abortion because you haven't had one either!
6. I have repeatedly said that abortion is wrong and that I regret mine and do what I can to help other women chose life and that is what it is all about-helping women choose life. I have arrived at my opinon on what works by doing sidewalk counseling for 13 years.
7. I am not twisting scripture at all.
8. You can oppose abortion without being hateful to other people who disagree with you, the bible says that a gentle word turns away wrath.
10. So what is your beef?
Carolemarie

reply from: ProInformed

The following is a post that 4Given contributed to another thread.
I though it might be a good one to include in this thread too as it reveals what abortion industry workers secretly feel about abortion and how it negatively affects them too. (Thanx 4Given for finding and posting these quotes.)
WHAT ABORTION WORKERS SAY:
On Workers' Reactions ...
"It's difficult being in a profession where you have a hard time answerlng the questions that other people ask you about what you do ... you come to feel not so good about what you're doing even when you thought you were doing something wonderful."
-- Terry Beresford. Planned Parenthood
"The doctors would remove the fetus ... and then lay it on the table, where it would squirm until it died ... They all had perfect forms and shapes. I coudn't take it, no nurse could."
-- Former Planned Parenthood Director
American Medical News, July 12.1993
"I had gotten involved in abortion because I wanted to help. But instead, while sucking the child out of its mother I was also sucking out the mother's soul and leaving an empty shell, an empty tomb. I began to detest what I was doing. More than that I began to detest myself. I even entertained thoughts of suicide."
-- Beverly McMillan M.D., OB/GYN, former abortionist
"There are weary, grim moments when I think I cannot bear another basin of bloody remains, utter another kind phrase of reasurance ... 'How can you stand it?' even the clients ask. They see the machine, the strange instruments, the blood, the final strike that wipes away the promise of pregnancy. Sometimes I see that too. I watch a woman's swollen abdomen sink to softness in a few stuttering moments and my own belly flip-flops with sorrow."
-- Sallie Tisdale, Clinic Nurse
Harper's Magazine, October 1987
"Clinic workers have very mixed emotions about abortion. ... Clinic workers may say they support a woman's right to choose, but they will also say that they do not want to see tiny hands and tiny feet. They do not want to be faced with the consequences of their actions ... There is a great difference between the intellectual support of the woman's right to choose and the actual participation in the carnage of abortion. Because seeing body parts bothers the workers."
-- Judith Fetrow, Former clinic worker
"I am having difficulty with my feelings about late abortions also. More and more, I don't even know anymore if I believe in it. There is just so much pain."
-- Abortion Counselor
In Necessity and Sorrow, Magna Denes, New York: Basic Books, Inc., 1976
"[D&E abortions are] far more psychologically traumitizing for the doctors ... I can't do them anymore."
-- Head of Obstetrics/Philadelphia teaching hospital
Philadelphia Inquirer, July 18, 1993
"[I've seen women] who have just had an abortion ... lie in the recovery room and cry, 'I've just killed my baby. I've just killed my baby.' I don't know what to say to these women. Part of me thinks, 'Maybe they're right.'"
-- Abortion Nurse
American Medical News, July 12.1993
"We don't have real conversations. Sometimes the employees faint. Sometimes they throw up. Sometimes they have to leave the room ..."
-- Joy Davis, Clinic Manager
A clinic worker describes dreams in which she sees "aborted fetuses stare at [her] with ancient eyes asking, 'Why? Why did you do this to me?'"
American Medical News, July 12. 1993
"I have fetus dreams, we all do here: dreams of abortions one after the other; of buckets of blood splashed on the walls; trees full of crawling fetuses. I dreamed that two men grabbed me and began to drag me away, 'Let's do an abortion,' they said with a sickening leer, and I began to scream, plunged into a vision of sucking, scraping pain, of being spread and torn by impartial instruments that do only what they are bidden ..."
-- Clinic Nurse
Harper's Magazine, October 1978
"Two respondents described dreams which they had related to the procedure. Both described dreams of vomiting fetuses along with a sense of horror ... In general it appears that the more direct the physical and visual involvement the more stress experienced."
-- Warren Hern, Abortionist
Associations of Planned Parenthood Physicians meeting, San Diego, October 26, 1978
"Planned Parenthood is set up so clinic workers never have to see the babies. It's set up that way because having to look at the babies bothers the workers. Planned Parenthood workers talk about how seeing parts is emotionally painful for them ... The smell of blood penetrates the clinic on the killing days ... I was the person who had to dispose of [the babies] ... There were days when I would go home and think, 'You know maybe this isn't right."
-- Former Planned Parenthood employee
http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/workers_say.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
Lo, children are a heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward.
Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.
Jeremiah 1:5
"The greatest destroyer of peace is abortion because if a mother can kill her own child, what is left for me to kill you and you to kill me? There is nothing between."
"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
Mother Teresa

reply from: carolemarie

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
You are contradicting yourself in the same post and in almost the very same sentance. The scripture does not back up your twisted thinking. Your opinion is meaningless. Quit projecting it over what the scripture actually says.
I will be happy to send you the scriptural backup later today. My question to you is why do you think that I am your enemy? I just don't get it...
Because you are just to stupid to get it. You come on this forum running your mouth how your voice has more wieght because you killed a few, you dishonor the memory of every womb child that has been killed with your perversion of justice and the word of God, you devalue womb life as a 'youthful mistake", and a "bad choice", and you have the audasity to ask why you are my enemy? This issue is about the child, not murderers who want a free walk. You take the focus off of the womb child to promote your personal agenda then play dumb about why your crap would upset real pro-lifers? Don't bother posting any more scripture taken out of context until you address the fact that you haven't a clue what Godly sorrow means. I have posted the direct scripture, and you ignore it, because it blows your take on it totally out of the water............................................................................................................................................................................................................2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Now address the issue from the direct quoted scripture, not your cherry picking scripture out of context to suport your perverted doctrine.
For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 12So even though I wrote to you, it was not on account of the one who did the wrong or of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are. 13By all this we are encouraged.
Paul is talking to them about the letter he sent them regarding the immorality that was in their midst. Read the whole verse in context.
Sorrowful as GOD intended. God's desire is that all men should come to know him and not one be lost. Godly sorrow leads to repentence and salvation which is why God wants to produce it. Worldy sorrow is being sad you were exposed or that you did something bad. The focus is all on you.
Godly sorrow is when you realize what your sin cost Jesus! You grieve for your sin because of what it cost Him. Even if you don't think it is a big deal, you grieve because of the cost Jesus paid to cover that debt. The focus is all on God. And when godly sorrow has produced the fruit of repentance leading to salvation, it is over and leaves no regrets.

reply from: yoda

Just as a tactical matter, I don't think that any of us who are posting here really have any expectation of ever reaching 55 million women.
Most of us who gather at the abortuary when they're scheduled to start killing babies feel very good if we can reach a single woman on her way to abort. Some women respond best to one tactic, and some another. There is no one best tactic, IMO. There is only "best intentions".
I've never personally heard a prolifer call any woman (or man) "names" at an abortuary protest, so I don't know what the result of that would be. And how one debates here is not necessarily an indication of how they will conduct themselves at a protest. For example, I'm quite verbose here, but at the mill I don't speak at all (to the customers) unless spoken to first. I let my sign do most of my talking.
I think there are many people who respond negatively to being spoken to by strangers, no matter how helpful they are trying to be. And of course when you're on your way into an abortuary to kill your baby, you're may not be in the mood to strike up a new acquaintance. I think they expect to be left alone, for the most part, and resent it when we attempt to speak to them.
Others, of course, may be on the fence and open to communication at that moment. It's not always clear which category they fall into either.

reply from: faithman

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
You are contradicting yourself in the same post and in almost the very same sentance. The scripture does not back up your twisted thinking. Your opinion is meaningless. Quit projecting it over what the scripture actually says.
I will be happy to send you the scriptural backup later today. My question to you is why do you think that I am your enemy? I just don't get it...
Because you are just to stupid to get it. You come on this forum running your mouth how your voice has more wieght because you killed a few, you dishonor the memory of every womb child that has been killed with your perversion of justice and the word of God, you devalue womb life as a 'youthful mistake", and a "bad choice", and you have the audasity to ask why you are my enemy? This issue is about the child, not murderers who want a free walk. You take the focus off of the womb child to promote your personal agenda then play dumb about why your crap would upset real pro-lifers? Don't bother posting any more scripture taken out of context until you address the fact that you haven't a clue what Godly sorrow means. I have posted the direct scripture, and you ignore it, because it blows your take on it totally out of the water............................................................................................................................................................................................................2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Now address the issue from the direct quoted scripture, not your cherry picking scripture out of context to suport your perverted doctrine.
For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 12So even though I wrote to you, it was not on account of the one who did the wrong or of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are. 13By all this we are encouraged.
Paul is talking to them about the letter he sent them regarding the immorality that was in their midst. Read the whole verse in context.
Sorrowful as GOD intended. God's desire is that all men should come to know him and not one be lost. Godly sorrow leads to repentence and salvation which is why God wants to produce it. Worldy sorrow is being sad you were exposed or that you did something bad. The focus is all on you.
Godly sorrow is when you realize what your sin cost Jesus! You grieve for your sin because of what it cost Him. Even if you don't think it is a big deal, you grieve because of the cost Jesus paid to cover that debt. The focus is all on God. And when godly sorrow has produced the fruit of repentance leading to salvation, it is over and leaves no regrets.
SSSSSOOOOOOO you have no regret in killing your children? Where does this verse say that? You once again are infusing your opinion , and making the scripture say what it does not. You conveniantly ignore the verse that talks about justice."what readiness to see justice done

reply from: carolemarie

Just as a tactical matter, I don't think that any of us who are posting here really have any expectation of ever reaching 55 million women.
Most of us who gather at the abortuary when they're scheduled to start killing babies feel very good if we can reach a single woman on her way to abort. Some women respond best to one tactic, and some another. There is no one best tactic, IMO. There is only "best intentions".
I've never personally heard a prolifer call any woman (or man) "names" at an abortuary protest, so I don't know what the result of that would be. And how one debates here is not necessarily an indication of how they will conduct themselves at a protest. For example, I'm quite verbose here, but at the mill I don't speak at all (to the customers) unless spoken to first. I let my sign do most of my talking.
I think there are many people who respond negatively to being spoken to by strangers, no matter how helpful they are trying to be. And of course when you're on your way into an abortuary to kill your baby, you're may not be in the mood to strike up a new acquaintance. I think they expect to be left alone, for the most part, and resent it when we attempt to speak to them.
Others, of course, may be on the fence and open to communication at that moment. It's not always clear which category they fall into either.
The thing is that everywhere you go, you run into women who have had abortions. You don't have to be at the clinic. When you post on this board, women who have had abortions read what you have to say and if all they hear is how evil and disgusting they are, it cements their position. And since 1/2 of all abortions are repeat, you can help save a life by the way you talk about abortion. You can tell the truth without being mean. Or without painting with a broad brush... But I know how it is to have that secret and listen to your fellow pro-livers say things about women who chose abortion that are simply dreadful. They are simply ordinary women who fell into a mess. If you can reach her, you can help her change sides, perhaps save a life etc...

reply from: carolemarie

2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
You are contradicting yourself in the same post and in almost the very same sentance. The scripture does not back up your twisted thinking. Your opinion is meaningless. Quit projecting it over what the scripture actually says.
I will be happy to send you the scriptural backup later today. My question to you is why do you think that I am your enemy? I just don't get it...
Because you are just to stupid to get it. You come on this forum running your mouth how your voice has more wieght because you killed a few, you dishonor the memory of every womb child that has been killed with your perversion of justice and the word of God, you devalue womb life as a 'youthful mistake", and a "bad choice", and you have the audasity to ask why you are my enemy? This issue is about the child, not murderers who want a free walk. You take the focus off of the womb child to promote your personal agenda then play dumb about why your crap would upset real pro-lifers? Don't bother posting any more scripture taken out of context until you address the fact that you haven't a clue what Godly sorrow means. I have posted the direct scripture, and you ignore it, because it blows your take on it totally out of the water............................................................................................................................................................................................................2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Now address the issue from the direct quoted scripture, not your cherry picking scripture out of context to suport your perverted doctrine.
For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 12So even though I wrote to you, it was not on account of the one who did the wrong or of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are. 13By all this we are encouraged.
Paul is talking to them about the letter he sent them regarding the immorality that was in their midst. Read the whole verse in context.
Sorrowful as GOD intended. God's desire is that all men should come to know him and not one be lost. Godly sorrow leads to repentence and salvation which is why God wants to produce it. Worldy sorrow is being sad you were exposed or that you did something bad. The focus is all on you.
Godly sorrow is when you realize what your sin cost Jesus! You grieve for your sin because of what it cost Him. Even if you don't think it is a big deal, you grieve because of the cost Jesus paid to cover that debt. The focus is all on God. And when godly sorrow has produced the fruit of repentance leading to salvation, it is over and leaves no regrets.
SSSSSOOOOOOO you have no regret in killing your children? Where does this verse say that? You once again are infusing your opinion , and making the scripture say what it does not. You conveniantly ignore the verse that talks about justice."what readiness to see justice done
Paul is talking about the believers who did what he requested and put the man who was having relations with his fathers wife out of the body of believers to bring him to repentence. They did that because they wanted to see justice done, which was to bring that man to repentence so he could be restored to the fellowship. It had nothing to do with exacting a pound of flesh. That man didn't see anything wrong with what He was doing and they were trying to let God awaken His conscience. Paul was approving of their desire to do what was right and best for their brother.
And yes, I regret choosing abortion, I have said that repeatedly, which you choose to ignore.

reply from: faithman

I have not ignored anything nor do I want a pound of flesh. Once again you twist this into what it is not, and try to put words in my mouth. you try to make me the mean bad guy, while you are the one who cold bloodedly killed your childrten, and tell us you get to walk away with no regrets. Then when you get called on it, you say you do reget it. Which is it?Your post are so full of contradiction it ain't even funny. You tell us abortion isn't murder because a highjacked court says so. You devalue human life as a youthful mistake, and a bad choice , constantly use pro-abort excuses to self justify, and trample under foot the memory of the womb child by saying they deserve no justice when the very scripture you take out of contexts says that Godly sorrow is to do justice. You play the same game as the bortheads by talking down to people, and we are to believe what you sau just because you say so. You pervert justice, and the scripture, to walk away with no regrets, now you say you do. Gosh! excuse me if all I see is a confused perverter of justice and scripture, who just wants to justify killing children, and can't face the fact the are a murderer. This is not your issue, it is a womb child issue. That is what you continue to refuse to see. Now run your mouth some more, you continue to make my points for me.

reply from: yoda

I reserve such language for those who brag about their abortions and/or speak glowingly about how wonderful abortion is. Even then, I prefer to say how "evil and disgusting" their actions are, because I don't know any of them personally.
It seems we are constantly talking about the two extremes that can be used in debating against elective abortion...... the one where you don't say anything negative at all about the act and try to stay "positive and supportive", and the other extreme where you castigate all who have participated in the act, regardless of their present position.
There is a middle ground here, and I think that's what most of us seem to occupy. I think it's obviously not going to work if we are deliberately hostile, nor is it going to work if we act as if abortion were just a silly little error in judgment that a few people accidentally make.
Each of us has our own "truth", and I agree it can be told without being "mean". And it can be told without sugar-coating it, too.

reply from: carolemarie

Originally posted by: faithman
I have not ignored anything nor do I want a pound of flesh. Once again you twist this into what it is not, and try to put words in my mouth. you try to make me the mean bad guy, while you are the one who cold bloodedly killed your childrten, and tell us you get to walk away with no regrets. Then when you get called on it, you say you do reget it. Which is it?Your post are so full of contradiction it ain't even funny. You tell us abortion isn't murder because a highjacked court says so. You devalue human life as a youthful mistake, and a bad choice , constantly use pro-abort excuses to self justify, and trample under foot the memory of the womb child by saying they deserve no justice when the very scripture you take out of contexts says that Godly sorrow is to do justice. You play the same game as the bortheads by talking down to people, and we are to believe what you sau just because you say so. You pervert justice, and the scripture, to walk away with no regrets, now you say you do. Gosh! excuse me if all I see is a confused perverter of justice and scripture, who just wants to justify killing children, and can't face the fact the are a murderer. This is not your issue, it is a womb child issue. That is what you continue to refuse to see. Now run your mouth some more, you continue to make my points for me.[/q
I am sorry you feel that I talk down to you. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I simply just don't agree with you on everything you say.
Saying I was young and made a bad choice is simply stating the facts...I was young and made terrible mistakes with my life. That doesn't mean they are okay, it just acknowleges that I was young.
Let me see if this helps you understand...I regret my sins. But since godly sorrow was produced in me because of them, I repented and became saved, and now I can live with out shame and guilt and sorrow. I am free of all of that, because of what God did. The price was paid, debt canceled and I get off the hook.
(grace can be very offensive to people, if it bothers you take it up with God)

reply from: AZGrandma

Take it one step further...a society which allows babies to be ripped from the safety of their mother's wombs, is guilty of murder, too.
We all have blood on our hands for continuing to elect politicians who support the right to chose to kill babies.
We all have blood on our hands for not standing up and calling this act what it really is, murder of the unborn.
Thank You God for YOUR mercy!
When we repent of our sins, HE removes them COMPLETELY and throws them into the deepest part of the ocean and posts a "no fishing" sign over them!

reply from: sander

Welcome, AZGrandma.
Good first post.

reply from: 4given

British Psychiatrist Group Warns Abortions Can Cause Mental Health Problems
London, England (LifeNews.com) -- The national organization in England for psychiatrists says women should be told that abortions can cause mental health problems. The organization says abortion businesses should tell women that abortions present numerous mental health risks such as depression. The Royal College of Psychiatrists went as far as saying that abortions shouldn't be done unless women are counseled on the possible risks. "Healthcare professionals who assess or refer women who are requesting an abortion should assess for mental disorder and for risk factors that may be associated with its subsequent development," the group says. "If a mental disorder or risk factors are identified, there should be a clearly identified care pathway whereby the mental health needs of the woman and her significant others may be met," it adds. The group's determination goes against the assumption some make that a pregnancy has worse mental health ramifications or that it alone generates mental health concerns while abortion is risk free. http://www.lifenews.com/int660.html

Abortion: March 16, 2008
One Dead, One Injured
Abortion takes its toll through the death of an unborn child and an injured mother:
Women may be at risk of mental health breakdowns if they have abortions, a medical royal college has warned. The Royal College of Psychiatrists says women should not be allowed to have an abortion until they are counselled on the possible risk to their mental health.
Dr Peter Saunders of the Christian Medical Fellowship weighs in:
"How can a doctor now justify an abortion [on mental health grounds] if psychiatrists are questioning whether there is any clear evidence that continuing with the pregnancy leads to mental health problems."
Saunders is not asserting his point on the basis of one medical outcome but the large body of evidence indicating the consequences of abortion. http://www.prolifeblogs.com/articles/archives/2008/03/one_dead_one_in.php


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