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How could you?

How could you want this for a woman?

by: jujujellybean

Almost every story I have read from women who have had abortions are bad. Pro choicers say they are for the woman. What I want to know is this: if you really cared about a woman, you wouldn't want this for them. You would try to tell them how awful it will be after the fact. Do you really care about the woman? As an outsider, I wouldn't think so.

reply from: AshMarie88

I don't think so. And when I ask if they care about the woman who regrets her abortion/s, they always reply, "It was HER choice and SHE has to live with it." That's not very caring at all.

reply from: boinky78

you really don't care about what happens to a unwanted child after they are born just because of your personal beliefs you don't want people having abortion so you could careless about the aftermath
Now that isnt a fair assumption now is it?
so why would you make that assumption about pro choicers?
this why I say the prolife argument is based on guiilt becuase they're are just as many people who don't regret having abortions and just as many women who do regret adoption

reply from: boinky78

Juju what about those who don't regret having an abortion?

reply from: QueenJ

http://imnotsorry.net/

reply from: lukesmom

No regret. Those are the women I most pity for they "know not what they do" or they do know and are so seeped in evil that they don't care.

reply from: AshMarie88

Men don't regret raping women. The KKK doesn't regret killing black people. Perverts don't regret molesting/raping children.

reply from: boinky78

And you have meet every rapist on earth so you must know this for 100%
And you have meet every person who has been in the kkk on earth so you must know this for 100%
.
So why is it alot of pedophiles/child molesters commit suicide because of regret and shame?
and I think it's kind of silly to try to compare abortion to any of these things but hey you're going to do it anyway

reply from: AshMarie88

Are you sure they don't commit suicide because they're ashamed they GOT CAUGHT?
And it's not silly to compare abortion to those, because everything bad action has an innocent victim. Abortion included.

reply from: MC3

Let's not forget that Adolf Eichmann went to his execution saying he did not regret his participation in the Nazi holocaust. That is because the lack of regret relates to the conscience of the person acting, not to the rightness of the act. If some pervert sexually assaults his neighbor's five-year-old daughter, whether he regrets it or not is irrelevant. His lack of remorse does not make having sex with five-year-olds defensible.
Now if we really want to see what role regret plays in the abortion issue, let's survey women who dealt with unplanned pregnancies in their past. Let's ask those who aborted if they now wish that they had given birth, and ask those who gave birth if they now wish they had aborted. What we will find is that for every woman who says she regrets giving life to her child, thousands will say they regret killing theirs. That explains why there are now literally thousands of support groups across America to help women overcome the emotional train wreck of abortion, but no one has found it necessary to start even one support group to help women deal with the emotional toll of letting their children live.
The fact is, after more than 30 years of legal abortion, if there is one thing we know for certain, it is that regrets about an abortion decision are only experienced by women who have them - not by those who don't. Now if someone from the pro-choice mob disagrees, let them to provide us the names of women who gave birth to unplanned children and now say they regret not having abortions.
I think the real irony here is that those women who are emotionally traumatized by their abortions could actually be mentally healthier than those who are not. We cannot ignore the probability that any women who can kill her own child without remorse is either a psychopath or has been terribly damaged somewhere along the way. We must also be concerned about what the future holds for a nation that produces large numbers of such people.

reply from: boinky78

lindsay ashford attemped suicide and he is a pedophile and he has never molested any children but he still attemped suicide because of guilt
Yes it is because a fetus can't be compared to someone thinking and feeling
human or not
would you be ok with me comparing 9/11 to cows being killed?

reply from: AshMarie88

An innocent human being can be compared to another tragedy victim. "Thinking and feeling" or not.

reply from: boinky78

Ash why is that?why can't I compare cows to 9/11?I mean that would be alot less stupid since cows are capible of feeling pain and emotions

reply from: jujujellybean

you really don't care about what happens to a unwanted child after they are born just because of your personal beliefs you don't want people having abortion so you could careless about the aftermath
Now that isnt a fair assumption now is it?
so why would you make that assumption about pro choicers?
this why I say the prolife argument is based on guiilt becuase they're are just as many people who don't regret having abortions and just as many women who do regret adoption
Really? I haven't seen nearly as many on happiness as I have on regret. Where is your basis on woman who do adoption? Why would she regret that in the first place? Proof please.
And it is a fair assumption. I have talked to several people who say it is the woman's choice. Vexing is actually one of them. She said so herself, that is the woman's choice. That sounds like proof, if you ask me.

reply from: jujujellybean

To both Boinky and Queen:
do you know how many times I have seen this website? You know why? BECAUSE IT IS LIKE THE ONLY ONE. I am sure now you will try really hard to find another one. I could give you a ton on women who regret it every day of their life. Let me know if you want examples.

reply from: jujujellybean

And you have meet every rapist on earth so you must know this for 100%
And you have meet every person who has been in the kkk on earth so you must know this for 100%
.
So why is it alot of pedophiles/child molesters commit suicide because of regret and shame?
and I think it's kind of silly to try to compare abortion to any of these things but hey you're going to do it anyway
Why? They are both hurting an innocent child! Except that abortion is killing but hey you won't believe that either.

reply from: jujujellybean

really? They are? Check a science book. They have instincts, not emotion. They don't look at their young with affection. They raise them the way they do from INSTINCT. That's been proven. So, if, then, you are saying they are at the same level of intelligence that we are, then that sort of makes instincts a thing of the past, which means YOU ARE DEFYING REAL SCIENCE. Next argument.

reply from: lukesmom

Really!? Funny, I grew up on a farm and have been around farm animals all my life and have never seen a cow have human emotion or even cow emotion. How many cows have you comiserated with lately?

reply from: boinky78

Really!? Funny, I grew up on a farm and have been around farm animals all my life and have never seen a cow have human emotion or even cow emotion.
So you have never rubbed a cows back and wacthed as it was comforted?
Do you not think they feel pain?
I would feel worse if I had killed a cow I would not feel anything about a fetus I do not value life just because it is human and as you can see humans are the ones causing damage

reply from: AshMarie88

Would you feel worse if you killed a cow or ran over a 2 year old child running out to get a ball?
We all know that answer...

reply from: boinky78

I would feel equally sad even though I don't know these two I would feel sad because they are both feeling and thinking creatures so I'd feel equally bad

reply from: AshMarie88

So what would make any difference if it was a 2 year old OR a grown adult who did nothing harmful to anyone... or even the preborn.

reply from: boinky78

So what would make any difference if it was a 2 year old OR a grown adult who did nothing harmful to anyone... or even the preborn.
Because a fetus doesnt feel or think
so what reason would I have to care?Like I said I don't value life just because it is human

reply from: lukesmom

Have you ever rubbed a premie and watched as it was comforted? Have you ever felt a child kicking inside your womb and rubbed him/her through your tummy and felt the kicking slow and felt your child be comforted? Watch pregnant women, they are rubbing their tummys and comforting their unborn child. Geezzzz girl! There is so much about life you don't know.

reply from: boinky78

Lukesmom how can someone comfort something that is not conscious or aware of it's existence?

reply from: lukesmom

You have never carried a baby to term. I have carried 4 children to term and one to 36 weeks. I am an expert on comforting babies before they were born as well as after birth. Ask any mother about rubbing AND caressing her baby through her tummy.

reply from: galen

Dear Boinky...
I suggest you do some research before you make statements like those above... A fetus has enough of a nervous system at 7-8 weeks to feel things like pain and fear because they are part of the self preservation system laid down in the brain at its most rudimentay level. First formed and last to go. So while the abortionist is tearing them limb from limb what do you think those last moments are like? What would you do... I suggest to you that your response and that of the fetus are not that unalike in similar circumstances i.e. impending doom.
Mary

reply from: boinky78

Ask any mother about rubbing AND caressing her baby through her tummy.
Are you talking about 3rd trimester fetuses?
3rd trimester abortions are rare I also think they are illegal in most states
a 3rd trimester fetus is very different from a first trimester fetus and that's when most abortions accour

reply from: boinky78

A fetus has enough of a nervous system at 7-8 weeks to feel things like pain and fear
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/315/7116/1111/c
Really?

reply from: galen

My statement will cover 1st trimester fetus cases....
have you ever watched a 5wker on ultrasound react to its mother's voice or the sonography probe or the vibrations of a loud noise?
Mary

reply from: boinky78

you can give me some links of events like this happening that would be nice

reply from: galen

Sure... i try to put them up here..... I'm on a laptop... but in the meantime go to Google and type in the search... ultrasound vieo fetus and the # of weeks you are interested in..
Mary

reply from: lukesmom

According to proaborts time in the womb doesn't matter. The rhetoric I hear spewed from the proaborts is that life isn't life until a baby exits his/her mother. And mothers can feel their baby move in the second trimester. By your "scientific" knowledge, when does a "fetus" change and have emotions and pain?

reply from: boinky78

Galen can you also post some non biasd websites where they state that a 7-8 week year old ffetus can feel pain and fear

reply from: kayluvzchoice

How do you feel fear before you have any life experience? What does a fetus or even a newborn know about danger?

reply from: galen

try this and see if it works for you.
At 5 wks its mainly a change in the heartrate... but its cool to watch ...
this one is 12 wks
BTW what do YOU consider nonbiased... I ask because everyone is biased in thier own way.
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/12-week-old-fetus/2551250160

reply from: galen

Ok Boinky... gotta run... however if you do a search of my old postings the answers you look for are there... I think I had this conversation with someone called screamingike... i will post more in the next few days though... good luck!
mary

reply from: boinky78

By your "scientific" knowledge, when does a "fetus" change and have emotions and pain?
Studies have shown that babies during this period will often move to the rhythm of music and actually prefer certain types of music already.
As you get to week thirty-four, your baby will start to have a more regular sleep pattern and will also have their eyes open when awake and closed when sleeping.
When you get to week thirty-five, your baby's hearing will be completely developed. Talk to your baby as much as you can.
http://www.butterflybabies.co.uk/3rd-trimester.htm#1
">http://www.butterflybabies.co....trimester.htm#1
I think this proves that 3rd trimester fetuses are alot different from a first trimester fetus

reply from: galen

fear is a primal response for self preservation... it is available to any complex org. that has a rudimentary brain. its what gives animals thier flight or fight response. fear is not just a response to a learned danger it is part of the unlearned self preservation instinct.. a reflex if you will. A fetus may not "know" that they are afraid but they still expeience terror . you still feel pain even if its you first paper cut.
Mary

reply from: boinky78

Galen you should post some non biasd sites stating this stuff and by non biasd I mean medical websites
if you can that would be nice

reply from: lukesmom

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju24284.000/hju24284_0f.htm

Beginning as early as 6 weeks of development, tiny pain fibers pepper the face and oral mucosa. The spread of these unique fibers proceeds in a head to toe fashion until by the 20th week, they cover the entire body. Not only do these fibers exist, they do so with greater density per sq inch than in the adult.
These fibers will connect with the spinal cord, and then connect with fibers that ascend to the thalamus and cortex. By the 10 - 12th week, the cortex is developing, and by the 15th week, the fibers from below have penetrated into the cortex.
Studies at 16 weeks and beyond show hormonal responses to painful stimuli that exactly duplicate the responses that the infant and adult possess. The critical difference is that the unborn lacks the ability to modulate itself in response to this pain. Therefore, the responses of hormones to painful procedures show a 3 - 5 x surge in response. This ability to down-regulate the response in light of painful stimuli will not exist until the unborn child is nearly full term in its gestational age. Further studies demonstrated that the magnitude of pain response reflected the magnitude of the stimulus and blocking the pain receptors with narcotics, blocked the hormonal surge. By 19 - 20 weeks, EEG recordings are readily documented, and somatosensory evoked potentials (SSEP) are seen by 24 weeks.
After 20 weeks of gestation, an unborn child has all the prerequisite anatomy, physiology, hormones, neurotransmitters, and electrical current to ''close the loop'' and create the conditions needed to perceive pain. In a fashion similar to explaining the electrical wiring to a new house, we would explain that the circuit is complete from skin to brain and back. The hormones and EEGs and ultrasounds record the pain response, and our therapies with narcotics demonstrate our ability to adequately block them. Therefore, any procedure performed on an unborn child after 20 weeks should take this into consideration.
Page 28 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC
''Can the unborn fetus feel pain at this stage of development,'' we would be asked.
''Is there something that can be given to alleviate the pain?''
And we would answer, ''Yes,'' to both.

reply from: jujujellybean

Have you heard of the prenatal classroom? A program where they teach parents to talk to their child in the womb. Beginning early. An infant is not aware of it's existence. It can see and feel and recognize, but so can a more developed baby inside the womb. You can comfort an animal, and they are like that.
I once heard a three month old newborn say I love you. You know why? Because it's parent's had told it that so many times inside the womb. funny, huh?

reply from: boinky78

It can see and feel and recognizewomb.
I never denied that but 3rd trimester abortion is rare and also illegal in most states
so why even bother bringing it up?or trying to refer to first trimester abortion as if it's like a 3rd trimester abortion?
once heard a three month old newborn say I love you. You know why?
Honestly I have a hard time beliving anything you type unless you have sites and proof so if it's a personal experince don't bother telling me

reply from: republicanhippiechic

boinky,
"fetuses" as u like to call them or "premature babies" as I like to call them can feel. They do have emotions. They regognize their mothers voice. It is instinct to know the smell and voice. But to feel your child (wanted or unwanted) kicking and uncomfortable and to be able to speak with soft tones or sing and feel the movments cease and your baby to be calm again, that is emotion. It is also your baby beginning to learn. A pregnant woman who has a sick child or complications in pregnancy that sees a doctor regularly have to make choices, (and dont try to deny this because my sister was one of them) and a lot of the choices are decided based on one question (not all but most) "Is my baby in pain." My sister had complications. A doctor told her that her baby was in severe pain and asked her if she wanted an abortion. She decided no and had a child with a spinal defect that will keep my nephew in a wheelchair forever. But because the doctor used the words "severe pain" she knew she couldnt have an abortion. OUr morals tell us you never hurt an innocent being human or non, out of any other reason than to survive. That goes for unbirthed babies because scientifically, they are ALIVE. and from going to the doctor through my sister's pregnancy and going through my miscarriage, I will tell you that no matter how much you argue, you know that "fetuses" can feel, and they are babies, they just arent done developing. But then again neither are premature babies. I was a premie. I'm glad that my mom wasnt ok with killing me just because I wasnt finished developing inside the womb. I'm glad I wasnt looked at as a fetus when I popped out all wrinkly and yellow. (God I was a hideous baby! LoL)

reply from: boinky78

are we talking about second/3rd trimester fetuses?Because women do not feel their babies kicking and moving untill second trimester and most women get abortion way before then
By about the twelfth week, the fetus is able to kick and curl its toes, and may grasp its feet or scratch itself with its fingernails. It can also move in response to a touch on its skin.
Was this before 26 weeks?
O I'm sorry but I forgot your morals ment something to me and the rest of the world and becuase your morals say abortion is immoral I should think so too
I'm sorry
Of course they're alive I never denied that
I know fetuses before 26 weeks cannot feel pain
Well humans inside the womb are fetuses rather they are wanted or not

reply from: sheri

hey ladies! were getting somewhere! Boinky doesnt think its ok to kill 2nd and 3rd trimester babies! next week she'll be in front of planned parenthood with a picket sign!

reply from: lukesmom

Nah, she'll be back in school continuing to develop her brain into adulthood. Boinky did you bother to read the report I posted above? If not please do so and maybe you could rethink first trimester pain also???

reply from: boinky78

Sheri I never said it was or wasnt ok to kill second and 3rd trimester fetuses I was just saying most people get abortions at first trimester and 3rd trimester abortion is illegal in most states

reply from: sheri

whats the difference ? if you kill mozart when hes 8weeks or 28weeks the result is the same, however you dont need to be a famous composer to be worthy of a birthday.

reply from: 4given

When is it okay to kill a child?

reply from: boinky78

I guess you missed the part where I said fetus cannot feel pain before 26 weeks nor is it even concious
if you kill Hitler when hes 8weeks or 28weeks the result is the same, however you dont need to kill alot of people to be worthy of a birthday.
I don't get how you're trying to use this as an argument......

reply from: boinky78

before 26 weeks(I don't see any reason why someone would wait so long unless their life was in danger)

reply from: 4given

before 26 weeks(I don't see any reason why someone would wait so long unless their life was in danger)
How did you decide a 26 week old child was okay to kill, but not after that? why 26 weeks? My baby sister was born at 28 weeks. She lived, and cried and felt pain. Why 26 weeks?

reply from: sheri

you know the stats 1% for health reasons,even in late term pregnancies, why does it matter to you how old the child is when you kill him?

reply from: boinky78

No 4life I said before 26 weeks not at 26weeks or after

reply from: boinky78

"Baby" is a term of endearment a girl will call her b/f baby does that literally mean hes a baby?
to someone who wants to keep their baby they will refer to their fetus as a baby
but to someone who does want an abortion might not see their fetus as anything more then a parasite

reply from: GratiaPlena

So basically what you're saying is that what a baby/fetus is depends on if he/she is wanted or not.
If a pregnant woman wants her baby one day and changes her mind the next day, does her child change from a baby to a parasite? If so, how could that be? How can an organism change species?

reply from: boinky78

Yup because the correct term for the unborn is fetus
No it was a fetus but she just called it a baby
do you think people who break up continue to call each other baby?
baby is a term of endearment
I never said that I said baby is a term of endearment
it also would not be changing species because a baby and a fetus both have human dna if you wanna look at it like that lol

reply from: AshMarie88

Well no kidding, that's because a fetus IS a baby. A newborn baby is the EXACT SAME baby that was still in the womb minutes and months prior to its birth. It was a living human person all along.

reply from: GratiaPlena

There is no correct term. Born offspring are all often called children, kids, babies, etc. Which one of those is the correct term?
Obviously all of them are correct, just as fetus, embryo, baby, unborn child, womb child, etc. are all correct terms for the unborn.
'Baby' has always been a term for a small child. It has only been since recent times that couples have called each other 'baby'.
But you said that the unborn could be either a baby or a parasite. By that logic, an unborn child could change from a baby to a parasite, if the mother changes her mind about whether the child is wanted or not.
The dictionary defines 'parasite' as some organism living off another organism belonging to a different species' body. According to your logic, if a 'baby' were to change into a 'parasite', the unborn child would have to change species.

reply from: boinky78

No a newborn is concious and is capible of feeling pain and emotion
I never said a fetus wasnt alive
and so what if it has human dna?I have said dozens of time I do not value a life just because it is human

reply from: boinky78

Nope the correct term for the unborn is fetus just like the correct term for someone 18+ is adult yet you will still hear parents refering to them as children...
terms of endearment
No I said a fetus has alot incomman with a parasite I never said it could magicly turn into one
It could be seen as a parasite but that doesnt mean it is just like you can believe a fetus is the same as a 12 year old
doesnt mean it is
But both live off another persons body I never said they were the same but they have something incomman
No I never said that it could change
a fetus lives off someone elses body just like a parasite
and if a fetus is unwanted it could be seen as that

reply from: GratiaPlena

Whether a mother's children are adults or not makes no difference- her offspring are still her children. They will always be her children, whether she loves them or not.
A fetus should have the same rights as a twelve-year-old.
Not scientifically, medically, or logically, seeing as a parasite needs to be of a different species than the host.

reply from: republicanhippiechic

are we talking about second/3rd trimester fetuses?Because women do not feel their babies kicking and moving untill second trimester and most women get abortion way before then
By about the twelfth week, the fetus is able to kick and curl its toes, and may grasp its feet or scratch itself with its fingernails. It can also move in response to a touch on its skin.
Was this before 26 weeks?
O I'm sorry but I forgot your morals ment something to me and the rest of the world and becuase your morals say abortion is immoral I should think so too
I'm sorry
Of course they're alive I never denied that
I know fetuses before 26 weeks cannot feel pain
Well humans inside the womb are fetuses rather they are wanted or not
You are so full of *****. have you ever been pregnant? I highly doubt it. Any medical "facts" that you put on this site, will not change the fact that you simply believe those fact because you read them. I know my baby moved You cant see a baby's movements (like a kicking foot moving the whole stomache of a 9 month pregnant woman) while they are still earlier on, but the mother can feel them. Thats how I found out that I was pregnant. I only knew I was pregnant for about a month before I miscarried, but Before my son passed, I felt his heart (it beat much faster than mine) If you lay completely still on your back you can feel him move, even though you claim he cant. He may not have kicked, but he moved. And no medical "facts" will change that, no matter how many of them you post and no matter how many things you repost time and time again because you only have like 10 facts memorized so you continually change the wording and say the same ten things. And in answer to your question about my nephew, she heard the news that something was wrong and that her child was in "slight pain" very early on in her pregnancy, definately by 24 weeks because I know she knew something was wrong then, but didnt find out what until middle of third trimester. That was when he used the words "severe pain".
By the way, When I had my miscarriage, I felt my son thrash violently right befre the bleeding started. How would you know what it feels like to die? How do you have any right to say when its ok for babies to die? You havent known that terror yet. And I hope God has mercy on you when you do.

reply from: boinky78

No but that's irrevelent there are ton's of prolife women who have had children and are rasing children
I would perfer to use some kind of medical facts instead of basing my opinion on emotion that is just silly
I know I might sound like a bitch but miscarriage IS NOT ABORTION I'm sorry that you went through that but I don't understand why you keep trying to use that as an argument

reply from: boinky78

The term child (plural: children) varies according to time and place, as well as to the discourse (legal, psychological, biological, religious) in which the term is used. It typically refers to one's state or age.[1] Thus it may signify a human being between birth and puberty, or refer to one who is childish or immature.
They are not children though they are adults words like this are terms of endearment
Why?Becuase it has human dna?Not every ejaculation deserves a name
I never said they were parasites buit they have something in comman they both live of someone elses body

reply from: jujujellybean

Why?Becuase it has human dna?Not every ejaculation deserves a name
No. As you have pointed out, lots of things have human dna. But not everything is human. And, if you are saying that 'ejaculation' is not human yet, then give me a date when I can rejoice because my 'ejaculation' has suddenly become a baby.

reply from: boinky78

juju the day they leave the womb untill then the correct word for the unborn is fetus

reply from: GratiaPlena

child /t?a?ld/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[chahyld] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
- noun, plural chil·dren.
2. a son or daughter
4. a human fetus.
www.dictionary.com
According to the dictionary, you're wrong on both accounts.
Ejaculation? No. Human being? Yes.
Gestation is a natural process. Parasitism is not.

reply from: boinky78

Why?what makes human life so valueable just because it's human?Having human dna is not a good enough reason not to be aborted
So? A fetus can still be compared to a parasite the have something in comman
both live off the bodies of someone else so they can be compared

reply from: GratiaPlena

And why should being born be a good enough reason not to be killed? By your logic, should those who lack a properly functioning brain be killed, since most animals are more sentient than them?
Parasitism happens without a person's knowledge or consent. When a person has intercourse they know fully well that there is a chance they may become pregnant, regardless of whether they're using contraception or not.

reply from: boinky78

Because someone born can think and feel
That's not true at all by my logic I think that if a woman wants to abort her fetus it's her business not mines
That can also happen with rape
like date drugs etc

reply from: GratiaPlena

A humn being two minutes after birth is no different that a human being two minutes before birth. Newborns do not think and feel any more than do third trimester children.
You didn't answer my question. You say that unborn children can be killed because they are not sentient. I said that some born people are less sentient than animals. Therefore, should they not have their right to life taken away, also?
Rape is an extremely desperate situation, but no one has the right to execute a child because of the crime of his/her father.

reply from: boinky78

3rd trimester abortions are also rare and illegal in most states
No because they are not living off the body of someone else
once someone is born they become their own person they not dependent on their mothers body to live a newborn does not need his/her mother to survive
a baby can have anyone who isnt even related to them take care of them
I also never said just because something is not sentient that they should not have a right to life
but if they are a fetus and the woman wants to abort them
why should it matter?They are not sentient and they cannot feel pain they are also dependent on their mothers body to live
while someone born is not

reply from: GratiaPlena

Should they be?
A newborn depends on some other person to survive, whether it be the mother, the father, the grandparents, etc.
a baby can have anyone who isnt even related to them take care of them
You have repeatedly said that animals deserve the right to life over the unborn solely because they are more sentient.
Perhaps because they are a human being, therefore a person, therefore protected under the Consitutional right to life?
per·son /?p?rs?n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pur-suhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
- noun 1. a human being, whether man, woman, or child
child /t?a?ld/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[chahyld] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun 4. a human fetus
Small children are.

reply from: boinky78

But it does not live off someone elses body it is it's own person now and is not dependent on his/her mothers body to live anymore
Yes I do think an animals does deserve a right to life because it is sentient
I don't think something is important just because it has human dna

reply from: GratiaPlena

He/she is dependent on someone's body to live.
Then why say lack of sentience is not part of your pro-abortion position?

reply from: yoda

Yes, and I want to thank you for each and every one of those times.

reply from: yoda

boinky, I just want to thank you again for being here:

Jacket image of the Compact Oxford English Dictionary

child
. noun (pl. children) 1 a young human being below the age of full physical development. 2 a son or daughter of any age. 3 derogatory an immature or irresponsible person. 4 (children) archaic the descendants of a family or people.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/child?view=uk

reply from: yoda

Because someone born can think and feel
So you're okay with killing the "dumb" ones, but not the "smart" ones?
Thanks again, boinky.......

reply from: yoda

You really do hate dependent people, don't you boinky?
You want all dependent people killed now, or later?
(thanks again!)

reply from: yoda

Not really:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/1997/pick_97/spec0303.htm (subscription required)
American Medical News ---- amednews.com ---- THE NEWSPAPER FOR AMERICA'S PHYSICANS -------
By Diane M. Gianelli, AMNews staff. March 3, 1997.
Abortion rights leader urges end to "half truths"
WASHINGTON -- Breaking ranks with his colleagues in the abortion rights movement, the leader of one prominent abortion provider group is calling for a more truthful debate in the ongoing battle over whether to ban a controversial late-term abortion procedure.
In fact, Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, said he would rather not spend his political capital defending the procedure at all. There is precious little popular support for it, he says, and a federal ban would have almost no real-world impact on the physicians who perform late-term abortions or patients who seek them.
"The pro-choice movement has lost a lot of credibility during this debate, not just with the general public, but with our pro-choice friends in Congress," Fitzsimmons said. "Even the White House is now questioning the accuracy of some of the information given to it on this issue."
He cited prominent abortion rights supporters such as the Washington Post's Richard Cohen, who took the movement to task for providing inaccurate information on the procedure. Those pressing to ban the method call it "partial birth" abortion, while those who perform it refer to it as "intact" dilation and extraction (D&X) or dilation and evacuation (D&E).
What abortion rights supporters failed to acknowledge, Fitzsimmons said, is that the vast majority of these abortions are performed in the 20-plus week range on healthy fetuses and healthy mothers. "The abortion rights folks know it, the anti-abortion folks know it, and so, probably, does everyone else," he said.
He knows it, he says, because when the bill to ban it came down the pike, he called around until he found doctors who did them.
"I learned right away that this was being done for the most part in cases that did not involve those extreme circumstances," he said.
The National Abortion Federation's Vicki Saporta acknowledged that "the numbers are greater than we initially estimated."

reply from: lukesmom

Actually "abortion" IS the medical term for miscarriage. "therapeutic abortion" is the medical term for choosing to purposely kill your unborn child.
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2091
Definition of Abortion
Abortion: In medicine, an abortion is the premature exit of the products of conception (the fetus, fetal membranes, and placenta) from the uterus. It is the loss of a pregnancy and does not refer to why that pregnancy was lost.
A spontaneous abortion is the same as a miscarriage. The miscarriage of 3 or more consecutive pregnancies is termed habitual abortion
Definition of Abortion, therapeutic
Abortion, therapeutic: An abortion that is brought about intentionally. Also called an artificial or induced abortion. As opposed to a spontaneous abortion (a miscarriage).

reply from: jujujellybean

That's not true at all by my logic I think that if a woman wants to abort her fetus it's her business not mines
Well, than why are you on here backing those women up? If it's not your business, than why are you on here in the first place? You are making it your business by arguing her case.

reply from: jujujellybean

You really do hate dependent people, don't you boinky?
You want all dependent people killed now, or later?
(thanks agains!)
I don't think she realizes that EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THIS FORUM AND ALMOST IN THE WORLD IS DEPENDANT ON SOMEONE. How would you live in perfect seclusion?

reply from: yoda

Thanks for demonstrating your need to fabricate false definitions, boinky.
Tell us what's "incorrect" about these definitions, okay?
MSN-Encarta Online:ba·by noun (plural ba·bies) 2. unborn child: a child that is still in the womb http://dictionary.msn.com/find/entry.asp?search=baby
Dictionary.com ba·by (bb) n. pl. ba·bies 2. An unborn child; a fetus. http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=baby
iNFOPLEASE.com ba.by pronunciation: (bA'bE), -n. 5. a human fetus. http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0330371.html

reply from: yoda

I used to think that about proaborts, but now I'm convinced that they do realize those things, and just refuse to admit them. Their devotion to the cult of baby killing is so strong that they sacrifice all personal honesty and integrity.

reply from: carolemarie

You have never carried a baby to term. I have carried 4 children to term and one to 36 weeks. I am an expert on comforting babies before they were born as well as after birth. Ask any mother about rubbing AND caressing her baby through her tummy.
I never would have admitted to the following when I was pro-choice:
When you are in an unwanted pregnancy, you know that if you don't do something you will have a baby.
You also know that abortion will end the life of the baby.
But your personal problems outweigh the life of the baby because it is small, weak and little and can't fight back. So you rationalize the decision (it's not a person yet) and pay a Doctor to "take care of it" (kill the baby) so you can do what you want.
Most women don't want to say it that ugly or sound that cold and callous, but we all know that what we are doing is ugly, selfish and killing a baby. But we want our way and figure we can get away with it so we do...
The I am not sorry website is pathetic. The reasons listed are pretty crummy for killing someone..just because it works out for for the MOM doesn't mean that death was the best thing for the baby.
It is incredibly selfish, ruthless and evil action to have an abortion and there is simply no good excuse to do it.
There are only two kinds of women in the world, those who could kill a baby and those who couldn't. I wouldn't trust the ones who could very far....

reply from: yoda

I'm with you 100% there, Carole. On the flip side, I've been amazed at how comfortable I feel with perfect strangers, once I know they are genuine prolifers. It's like I know instantly that I could trust them with my life.

reply from: carolemarie

Those were pretty silly reasons to justify killing a baby. You can do college and school while pregnant, being pregnant doesn't affect your brain from fuctioning....while abortion is easier then dealing with a pregnancy and a child it is still killing a child to make your life easier...it makes the women who choose it cold.
I said for over 17 years that I didn't regret my choices, mainly because I couldn't undo the choices and had to find a way to live with them. And I really didn't regret them all that much because I didn't allow myself to think about it beyond sound bites. It had to be okay because I, the great me, did it. And I wanted to think well of myself because I loved myself so much. But reality is that abortion was easier then dealing with the mess the pregnancies caused. And the last one was to punish my boyfriend for breaking up with me--I knew that it would hurt him so I did it to make him suffer. I was cruel and mean and incredibly selfish.
It is an ugly decision and makes those who choose it ugly as well.

reply from: galen

Ok Boinky... I'm Back and hopefully this will clarify my earlier discussion with you....
First everyone is biased to one extent or another... even the medical proffesion... or possibly especially them. A person becomes biased based on many things... where their funds come from... life experiences etc.
That said, I would like to thank lukesmom for her post as it was informative and no better than the ones i would have put up from JAMA etc.
Go to any online site and look up fetal development and you will find that as soon as the brain starts to form a fetus/embryo can have rudimentary pain signals flowing through the nervous tissue that is there.... does that mean the child is/ or is not self aware? we do not know this for sure what we can know from vast experience and testing is that pain is the first sensation to be experienced by a mammal ( humans are mammals) and the last one we lose before we die ( be it over seconds or days that this takes place) the logical conclusion to be drawn is that a fetus/ embryo that is producing nerve cells can feel pain and there for experience suffering as pain is unplesant.
Where are you getting your info about premature infants from? we no longer ( unless we are dr tiller ) try to confine comfort measures to those children born after a particular gestational period... so why all the statements about 26wkers?( have you been taking your info solely from wikepedia?)
I can tell you that after delivering premies that were 24 wks and younger that they were somwhat self aware.. possibly a dreamlike state and not awake for many minutes at a time ... those who did not require sedation were quite vigerous... so???*shrug*. You seem to be quite intelligent but perhaps a bit misinformed? anyway here are a few good sites to look at ... if you can get through the scientific jargon.
Mary
White, R. Frank. "Are We Overlooking Fetal Pain and Suffering During Abortion?", American Society of Anesthesiologists Newsletter (October 2001).
http://www.ampainsoc.org/

http://www.painassociation.org/wst_page4.html

reply from: jujujellybean

I used to think that about proaborts, but now I'm convinced that they do realize those things, and just refuse to admit them. Their devotion to the cult of baby killing is so strong that they sacrifice all personal honesty and integrity.
true. everyone depends on someone. I depend on too many people to count!

reply from: Beprolifewithme

Same here, give me one person that doesnt' rely on someone else. Even homeless ppl do, their friends and homeless shelter ppl and uplift volunteers.

reply from: yoda

Crossing a state line or two isn't such a big deal, is it boinky?
I looked it up on the net and here's what I found.... this was as of June 30, 2001 and was located at the Alan Guttmacher Institute Website.
Ten states have no law concerning late abortions: Alaska Colorado Hawaii Mississippi New Hampshire New Jersey New Mexico Oregon Vermont West Virginia
Twenty state laws prohibit abortion after viability or a specified point in pregnancy unless the woman's life or health (broadly defined) is at risk: Arizona Arkansas Connecticut Florida Georgia Illinois Iowa Kentucky Louisiana Maine Maryland Minnesota Missouri Nebraska Oklahoma South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee
Washington Wisconsin
Fourteen state laws prohibit abortion after viability or a specified point in pregnancy unless the woman's life is endangered or there is a "serious," "grave" or "irreversible" risk to her health: Alabama Indiana Kansas Massachusetts Montana Nevada North Carolina North Dakota Ohio Pennsylvania Texas Utah Virginia
Wyoming
Five state laws prohibit abortion after viability or a specified point in pregnancy unless the woman's life is endangered: Delaware Idaho Michigan New York Rhode Island
One state law prohibits all abortions after a specified point in pregnancy:
California

As for rare, well........ no.
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/1997/pick_97/spec0303.htm (subscription required)
American Medical News ---- amednews.com ---- THE NEWSPAPER FOR AMERICA'S PHYSICANS -------
By Diane M. Gianelli, AMNews staff. March 3, 1997.
(excerpt) "Abortion rights activists tried to combat the images with those of their own, showing the faces and telling the stories of particularly vulnerable women who have had the procedure (PBA). They have consistently claimed it is done only when the woman's life is at risk or the fetus has a condition incompatible with life. And the numbers are small, they said, only 500 to 600 a year.
Furthermore, they said, the fetus doesn't die violently from the trauma to the skull or the suctioning of the brain, but peacefully from the anesthesia given to the mother before the extraction even begins.
The American Society of Anesthesiologists debunked the latter claim, calling it "entirely inaccurate." And activists' claims about the numbers and reasons have been discredited by the very doctors who do the procedures. In published interviews with such newspapers as American Medical News, The Washington Post and The Record, a Bergen County, N.J., newspaper, doctors who use the technique acknowledged doing thousands of such procedures a year. They also said the majority are done on healthy fetuses and healthy women.
The New Jersey paper reported last fall that physicians at one facility perform an estimated 3,000 abortions a year on fetuses between 20 and 24 weeks, of which at least half are by intact D&E. One of the doctors was quoted as saying, "We have an occasional amnio abnormality, but it's a minuscule amount. Most are Medicaid patients ... and most are for elective, not medical reasons: people who didn't realize, or didn't care, how far along they were."


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