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What's with Operation Save America and Troy Newman?

...Confused over Troy Newman allegations.

by: Lutherans4Life

Hello everyone.
I am new here and just joined because my heart has been very troubled recently. I have been a donor to Operation Rescue and a fan of Troy Newman's work there. In the last 2 days Operation Save America which I have also supported in the past has been stating that Mr. Newman's work there is a fraud. I have heard before that there was some animosity between the organizations. Others have told me that OSA was out to get Mr. Newman. Others have told me that OSA is a very dirty organization.
I am very confused and can only pray. I was hoping the forum here could help me determine the truth so that I will stop donating to one or the other. Maybe both. Even if Mr. Newman were a crook, I do not understand why OSA would attack him at such a critical time for the prolife movement in Kansas. They seem to have almost backstabbed prolife in Kansas. But I don't know anymore.
Please help. I run a mailing list with a few hundred people who listen to me. They are looking to me for guidance regarding their donations to Operation Save America and Operation Rescue under Mr. Newman. None of us have followed the bickering. There is nothing much on the web about it.
Thank you and God bless,
Nancy
Attachments:
URL http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/Default.aspx
....Troy Newman allegations in the article there.

reply from: Lutherans4Life

This is from Wikipedia. I have never heard of these things before and was only familiar with Mr. Newman's work with the truth trucks. I also know that Wikipedia tends to be leftwing edited and has given biased slants to conservative figures. But with such a corporation they would be vulnerable to slander charges.
Can anyone further explain this Troy Newman and Operation Rescue story? Eager to hear what any of you know.
-------------------------------------------
Troy Newman (born 1966) is an American pro-life activist. Born in Anchorage, Alaska, Newman was adopted as an infant and raised in the Southern California area. He is the president of Operation Rescue, known before 2002 as Operation Rescue West, which is currently based in Wichita, Kansas.
Newman became the head of this organization after Jeff White's Operation Rescue California closed due to legal judgements incurred by White. Newman moved his organizational headquarters to Wichita, Kansas. There, Operation Rescue West launched its "Year of Rebuke" campaign to expose those with political, professional, and social ties to late-term abortion provider George Tiller. He has shown support for Shelly Shannon who is serving a sentence for wounding Dr. Tiller in a gun attack in 1993.
Newman became the head of the California-based Operation Rescue West organization after Jeff White's Operation Rescue California closed due to legal judgements incurred by White. Newman moved his organizational headquarters to Wichita, Kansas. There, Operation Rescue West launched its "Year of Rebuke" campaign to expose those with political, professional, and social ties to late-term abortion provider George Tiller.
Newman developed the idea of using panel trucks to deliver his organization's message, and, thus, the "Truth Truck" fleet was created. These trucks, covered with graphic, billboard-sized images of aborted fetuses, have been driven across the United States.
Operation Rescue began documenting incidents of abortion-related injuries at the Women's Health Care Services requiring emergency hospitalization, including the third-trimester abortion death of Christin Gilbert, a 19-year-old with Down Syndrome. Information gathered by Operation Rescue contributed to the introduction of a strict clinic regulations bill in 2005, which passed both Houses of the Kansas Legislature by a two-thirds majority, but was vetoed by Governor Kathleen Sebelius. Newman helped lead a petition drive to convene a grand jury to investigate Gilbert's death and other wrongdoing by Tiller and his clinic. On July 31, 2006, the grand jury disbanded without returning indictments. It was later learned that the grand jury narrowly missed indicting Tiller on four charges by only one vote, due to witness stonewalling and a lack of access to records and witnesses.
Operation Rescue participated in bringing public pressure that led to the revocation of Krishna Rajanna's medical license and the permanent closure of his Kansas City abortion clinic, which had been under investigation for substandard conditions.
In September 2006, Newman and Army of God member Jonathan O'Toole showed up at an open-air gubernatorial debate dressed as cockroaches, protesting alleged unsanitary conditions at Tiller's clinic. Democratic State Rep. Vaughn Flora (Topeka) recognized Newman, tore his mask off, and was arrested for battery. Flora accepted a $100 fine in lieu of arraignment after the Kansas legislature adjourned for the year.
Newman is an ordained Elder in the Presbyterian Church of America. He is married to Karlena and has five children.
Since taking the original Operation Rescue moniker, Newman has provoked the ire of Operation Save America leader Philip "Flip" Benham, who has accused Newman of provoking violence in the defence of life. The two clashed during the 1993 execution of Paul Jennings Hill in Florida, Benham supporting the execution and Newman calling Hill a martyr. [1]
Newman and Operation Rescue West are currently under IRS investigation for charges of money laundering and tax evasion. As alleged by "Maggotpunks.com", Newman's organization receives hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations and has no paid staff; Newman refers to his staff as missionaries and, as a result, does not report their income. Using the donations, Newman has purchased hundreds of thousands of dollars of real estate throughout Kansas.
The organization remains small with about a dozen members, many of which are members who left California to relocate in Wichita.
Newman wrote the brief book (ISBN 0-9720367-5-X) "Their Blood Cries Out" with his Vice-President, Cheryl Sullenger, who was convicted along with her husband in 1987 of conspiring to bomb an abortion clinic. In the book he finds Biblical justification for the execution of abortion providers and any woman who receives an abortion. This contradicts his demand for non-violence as expressed in a Rolling Stone interview.

reply from: DocQuack

[Judge Quacky has retired for the evening. I am DocQuack again.]
I agree completely, CP.
Oh, by the way. I'll be returning your Judge wig when the inquisitions are over and dropped down on the threads some. I miss my Rasta Man hairdoo anyhow! You can keep this stinkin' wig and stockings Pilgrim garb. :-) Don't sweat it.
As far as Mr. Newman goes, I am more familiar with Catholic pro-life affairs than all this Protestant world. I've been busy with matters other than anti-abortion over the years and have really never heard of Truth Trucks or even Operation Save America until the other day when a friend told me. I remember OSA briefly pushing the Ten Commandments issue in state and federal politics, but that's about it.
From what I read so far, this Newman seems to have worked very hard for Pro-Life and the unborn, so I don't have any problem with him taking money from the cause for his salary. The guy has to live and feed his family. If he's spending too much time among the cause and isn't comfortably retired, he has no choice but to make it his profession. So, I can't hold that against a man. I would like to hear of his annual salary and total personal assets, though, if taking money from the public. That's one area where I have a question, but not any serious suspicion.
As far as Newman's purchase of much "real estate throughout Kansas", I was reading the other day that he had set up shop inside a former abortion clinic; That his organization has been driving abortion clinics out of business and buying them up as a strategy. I like that! So, right here, I question Wikipedia's credibility more so than Newman's. I have seen that before to them, too. They sound almost like Wiccan's Encyclopedia to me.
The allegations of Newman's pleads for money in order to sustain a legal fight in Kansas along side the government out there are not shocking to me, and are possibly twisted. Many conservative organizations -- Judicial Watch, Pacific Legal Foundation, the NRA (above all!!) -- plead with the public for funds to support their legal actions and criminal investigations. Big whoop.
I don't fully understand this beef between OSA and OR, either, but I find it very detrimental to pro-life ops out in Kansas.
More so than any financial questions, these two areas are the most bothersome to me:
Since taking the original Operation Rescue moniker, Newman has provoked the ire of Operation Save America leader Philip "Flip" Benham, who has accused Newman of provoking violence in the defence of life. The two clashed during the 1993 execution of Paul Jennings Hill in Florida, Benham supporting the execution and Newman calling Hill a martyr. [1]
Newman wrote the brief book (ISBN 0-9720367-5-X) "Their Blood Cries Out" with his Vice-President, Cheryl Sullenger, who was convicted along with her husband in 1987 of conspiring to bomb an abortion clinic. In the book he finds Biblical justification for the execution of abortion providers and any woman who receives an abortion. This contradicts his demand for non-violence as expressed in a Rolling Stone interview.
I am bothered by these notations because:
1) A martyr is, by definition, someone who suffers for a cause and dies for it usually among defense and oppression. That can be in peaceful death or armed conflict of a losing nature. I can see how this Hill's execution might be perceived as that, but the country cannot be allowed to erupt into a shooting war. That's exactly what the enemy wants. Pro-lifers moving to violence is exactly what the bortheads want to gain further power. All anger is based in fear, and they want us to fear them enough to be violent. Humor and mockery is a far better means of pro-life attack, however, because it defuses anger and provides for force morale while greatly demoralizing a foe.
2) I don't know the details of the Hill case, but he was obviously tried and convicted of murder. I remember something about it in the news back then. I find it oddly Liberal borthead that the government was so eager to execute him while not delivering justice equally to others. Right there, you have a powderkeg brewing all the more for pro-lifers. So, I would first question the details of the case. Was he unjustly prosecuted and sentenced? I don't know. If so, then maybe he was a martyr to some degree. Peoples' words often get twisted out of context by their enemies.
3) First question I would ask is why Hill murdered. Was he threatened by this abortion provider personally? I would most certainly resort to murder if personally threatened by any pro-abort, but I would never be caught for it. When an evil and ruthless element threats your life or family and assets in any way, I was taught by very mean family to strike your enemies down before they have a chance. I proudly relate to very murderous veterans, old spooks, Allied "war criminals", and true butchers of the worst kind. So, though there is law, I fully understand that sometimes they were meant to be broken. When you're threatened, assaulted, or pushed too far....yeah, then you kill and you do that with extreme coldness and ruthlessness. But, that's WHEN PUSHED TOO FAR OR JUST ALL RILED UP. So, you avoid situations that rile you up. But, I don't suspect that was the story with the Hill case. I don't know the details. Anyone?
4) If I knew of anyone who ever murdered or intended to murder any abortion doctor, I would certainly never report it or even care. The bortheads would be the same ruthless way with any of us, so hell with them! But, I don't think we get anywhere by condoning violence like that. At least not at this time among the political state of the country. We're not in a shooting war yet. Things like that only hurt the cause. There are still any other avenues to fight by. And the greatest means of war is to defeat one's enemies without ever killing at all. Christ understood that strategic concept more so than any in history, and so, when we deviate too much from that, we do become too devilish.
5) Beyond that, when a woman trying to abort dies, I don't give a damn. Let her die and rot in Hell. That's the devil in me talking, of course. But, my sane side, sees that these are very emotionally traumatized women already. Most are just young and stupid sheep who don't know any better. I cannot imagine pro-lifers actually wanting to murder the woman who is also a victim of abortion to some degree. I can fully agree with biblical justifications for executions of abortionists and abortive women UNDER THE LAW, however. I would love to see that someday in our country, but that's no excuse to resort to murder.
The purpose of public hangings is to take away the stain of killing for the executioners, too. And, of course, as much as I like all this good ol' Protestant Sunday afternoon hanging stuff of the old west, as a bad Catholic, I'm obligated to recall Pope John Paul's position against the death penalty here. His position I think can be basically summed up in that the world moves into such darkness, vengeful streaks, and evil that we need to cultivate a Culture of Life as our supreme virtue; That we should be against Capital Punishment in most cases if only because the state executed Christ; If only because Christians someday will surely be martyred all the more by the state; That and it is rarely ever done justly; That and vengeance belongs to God, etc.
That does not mean real Catholicism is against war, self-defense, killing in offensive nature among war, and other types of official or individual acts of killing. In fact, as I understand it, that was just an opinion of the Pope. It's not law. Catholics are free to disagree with the Pope there, but we at least hear his voice on the matter as a restraint when it comes to just killing rampantly or moving to violence. Killing is always to be a moral decision to enter into and then carried out very coldly in execution phases with preferably some form of humanity where there is the luxury for it. Killing in anger is both sinful and not effective. It's the way soldiers become in war, but it's not how you win a war. Anger results from a partial loss of control. If you dominate and control the battlespace, it's all just cold aggression which doesn't move sloppy and stupidly in anger. And keeping that way allows victory while not letting immorality walk in the door.
6) More disturbing than any of that is this charge that Newman's #2, Sullenger, was convicted for conspiring to bomb an abortion clinic in 1987. I can understand that one might have staffers who get deranged among the fight, but this Wikipedia article is clearly painting an ugly picture of Newman's OR. I can fully understand that people might like to do that. I would love to kill and go on bombing rampages myself if I could, but what holds me back? Any fear of the law? No. Just the thoughts that: A) It does no good for the pro-life cause overall; It's too offensive, not defensive in nature and strategy; It's just silly terrorism like Bin Laden's guys do and most moslems are pro-life and anti-abortion, also; B) Bombs are an ugly business which hurt the innocent along with the wicked, and they rapidly turn public opinion against your cause. They are not just ways of waging war in an urban environment -- especially when targeting civilians of any form. . The ways of a rifleman are much better if pro-lifers are going to go insane.
What bothers me most is whether or not these Wikipedia blurbs be truth or lie. If they are lie, that Wikipedia would be allowed to slander a major pro-lifer who has clearly done much good work against Abortion is something that needs to be addressed and fought over.
If all those things be truth, has Wikipedia distorted the facts any?
If those are exactly the facts, I don't agree with any of those religious beliefs, philosophies, and tactics of making pro-life war.
The propaganda war is where our truest battlefield lies with these bortheads.
Like the previous poster, I am also disturbed and confused over these allegations against OR and Newman. I can also fully understand how people were going crazy in the 1990's and exactly why Christians were turning into homegrown terrorists; Or even why anyone would sympathize with them because I do, also. Waco. Ruby Ridge. All excess Big Government attack upon goofy Christian factions. Things could have been handled much better and more softly.
But 1987? We had Conservatives in power back then. We had pro-life in power back then. Apart from the Newman question, I don't understand why any pro-lifer would resort to bombing back then of all times. Can anyone shed light on the pro-life culture back then? I was too young. This history to our movement is interesting and has much to teach us.
Were there other details of the case we don't know about? Were PP scum attacking them legally, suing them, what? Were they under some form of attack back then? I could understand going violent there, but, when you are not being attacked personally, it's all the more bothersome. It's like Dr. Evil conspiring over the world from an offensive position. That bothers me.
I believe in ruthlessness and the devious squashing of our borthead enemies, but you also have to leave them an avenue of retreat and blending into our cause in order to grow in momentum and strength. I believe in fighting back with equal ruthlessness and, yes, even more violence when provoked by or threatened with violence. But, not until provoked and pushed too far.
As pro-lifers making war on establishment abortion agendas we are in the offensive position, and so our fight must be all the more peaceful in form. Nothing ever good comes from making war by the ruthless offensive. The best fighting motions are always in picking your defensive positions of such a ruthless nature that the enemy cannot help but to attack there unwisely, and so you ambush him very offensively but always from the defensive position.
For example, if you wish to screw with Planned Barrenhood all the more, you get little coloring books into the hands of youth. You put things like the I AM a Person image on the cover. Inside, you put pages of educational coloring book stuff on how the fetus grows into a toddler; How baby came out of mommy's tummy (but no sex ed; Just a smiling stork or angels in the intro). You include a small set of free crayons. And you hand those out by the cases to toddler youth everywhere in America. You push it to them like playground drug dealers. "Here, little boys. You want some candy and crayons? Here you go. We got plenty more." They go off. Their pals want more. You ruthlessly feed the demand with supply.
What you do there is inject pro-life, pro-fetus, personhood propaganda at the playground level in bypass of their borthead teachers and parents just like they try to do with our kids and sex ed or birth control! Just a couple kids giving coloring books to their pals at school. Then, those innocent kids take those propaganda messages back to their borthead teachers and borthead parents, and it wounds them more deeply than any gunshots could ever do! :-) It kills their cause more greatly than any killing could ever do. It enrages them and demoralizes them all at once -- further psychologically destroying the enemy from within. It steals the next generation right out from under their thumbs.
And, when they try to ban that, you put pro-life law firms breathing down their necks and suing for millions while taking it all the way to the federal courts. You draw them into offensive attack upon sweet little kids just handing out coloring books and wanting to learn how babies grow. Kids asking teachers why the unborn are not people, too. Whatever monies pro-life plunders from those fights you pump right back into more propaganda war from the defensive posture and ambush.
....That's truly ruthless without ever firing a shot. That's how we win this war. No killing. No violence. No nasty words. Just ruthlessness and cold-hearted assaults of the most devious kind. Always upon the minds of the enemy leadership, structure, chains of command, their foot soldiers, and their innocent prey. It's not about "raising awareness". It's about aggressive propaganda and psychological warfare to new heights alongside political and litigative ruthlessness, too.
In Newman's defense, I did hear a good "hatchet job" was done on him awhile back. Can anyone tell us more?
These issues of violence within the cause, violent philosophies promoted, uncorrected allegations of such in the public eye, and internal bickering are probably more important to pro-life than any.
If this Troy Newman is a good and innocent man who has well served the unborn, letting the world -- and places like Wikipedia or Operation Save America -- slander his name is no good. Pro-lifers should sue over it, help Newman plunder Wikipedia, leave OSA be (since division within Pro-Life is no good), and then use that loot to fund coloring books in the schools, etc.
If these possible slanders are entirely true regarding Newman, it's more bothersome than any financial allegations.
FaithMan? Mr. Crutcher? Anyone? What's the story here? As pro-lifers, I think we need to either get behind and fight for this Troy Newman and OR or back away. And I honestly don't know what to make of it, either. I lack sufficient information to judge and wouldn't dare be Judge Quacky on the matter. It would be nice to hear peaceful discussion on matters like this for a change. That's what forums like this are truly meant to do! That's why I came here, too.

reply from: DocQuack

I couldn't agree more. Thank's CP!
Seen that plenty before.
The only thing I would add is that I don't know anything of Newman and OR finances at this point. Maybe others on the forum will shed light on that.
You seem to be hinting at FaithMan and the I AM a Person campaign. All I can say there is that FaithMan has never requested a dollar from myself on the matter. I have maybe a couple hundred cards here from him. Haven't counted the stack. I know that cost their cause money to print out. He paid postage. Though I disagree with FaithMan in some areas, I know he is truly anti-abortion and a good man. Being anti-abortion, of course, does not justify all means. We know also that goodness and good men have historically paved a road to Hell. Many friends thought Hitler a good man, too. Yup, all true.
The issues of pro-lifers moving to violence is a lot like the question of the Irish Republican Army. As Catholics, we sympathize with their cause against the Brits at times. I don't know the details of the Hill case. Was that the guy who killed a borthead doc for aborting or trying to abort HIS child? I could understand whacking a doc like that. Judge Quacky would slap him on the wrist, toss him in jail for a time, give him cable tv, and let him go like all the rest if that were the case. I'll have to study the Hill case, but, if the state executed him for that, yeah, I'd call him a "martyr" to some degree. If he was just taking the law into his hands and killing willy nilly, I can't support that. And, of all things, supporting bombing of clinics is no good because such things potentially hurt the innocent (not to mention unborn babies in those clinics). Even if done at hours when nobody is there, it still turns public opinion against the cause. It makes the cause an enemy of the state. It tries to circumvent the law and will of the People which becomes an enemy to the Republic.
That's more bothersome to me than any issues of money. Likewise, I can also see that, if former IRA terrorists can renounce terrorism and try to do good things, they should not be discouraged from doing that.
That's why I have believed in this I AM a Person campaign. It gives rabid folks like FaithMan and FaithBoy something more productive to do! They are not getting rich off it. The cards FaithMan distributes people are free to print out and circulate as they like. They can buy more through his printer pal. Whatever. I have sensed no greed to Faith Man or even a desire for money other than to be able to distribute more cards at greater scale.
Faith Man and FaithBoy are very angry pro-lifers. I fully understand that. Cursing, vulgarity, insults to real and bogus forum folk....all that does not bother me.
What bothers me is a growing Barabas factor that I have smelled among Conservatives all around the country; Barabas factors among pro-lifers. At the other extreme is wussy pacifism and apathy among Catholics, Protestants, and the secular masses -- most either not caring for the unborn or just praying, talking, and doing nothing. This is equally of the Devil. Somewhere, there has to be a reasonable ground between those two camps. I know the Christian way of peace, forgiveness, and non-violence is often frustrating -- especially when 3000 to 5000 babies are butchered daily and the enemy pushes for that all the more -- but going on the violent warpath or encouraging and condoning it exactly what Judas once wanted. It is not the way to to fight this war in the New Rome we dwell under. The state cares not of babies and only the law. Laws were made to be broken among peaceful and agitating protesting, and that's one thing. But, once things move to killing...killing from offensive motions at that... this injures the pro-life cause more than anything.
FaithMan I know understands that concept. Troy Newman? I don't know enough. I lack sufficient information to judge. Mr. Crutcher and Life Dynamics? I don't know their position on these matters. I only know that there is nothing I can do to support such causes. I have a hard enough time recruiting secular, selfish, and bogus Catholic sorts to non-violent action against abortion or just a change of heart. If the pro-life cause allows itself to be blood-stained in criminality, even if justifiable in God's eyes, it just doesn't crush the enemy mind and spirit. It doesn't do anything to turn the minds of the People.
The People are the Republic and the law. The selfish, vile People of this country are still the U.S. Government. They have their Free Will, and they choose to slay babies at the moment. But, where a few -- and a minority at that -- try to force their Free Will or antagonize it too much.... this only causes entrenchment in the borthead and middle-road camps rather than destruction of their will to fight. Everything about influence of power and politics of state is about the peaceful and ordered influence of the law. The state sees no sins greater than breaking ranks from that order. Pro-Life has to work with the state and within the law or everything we do will only become that of outlaws. And, as outlaws, it is impossible to save babies at grand scale. We satisfy only our carnal lusts and vanities like that.
There are many, many, many means of making war on the bortheads -- vastly more destructive means -- than violence. At the highest level, it is a propaganda and political war. Forces can always engage forces and crush them through superior strength, numbers, and wily moves. But, ideas are immune to all but psychological warfare and propaganda. History's mass graves are littered with fools -- just like Hitler -- who believed too much in the power of the sword. St. Peter also believed too much in the sword all the way up to the Crucifixion. Judas, of them all, betrayed Our Lord by belief in the power of the sword. These are all just worldly endeavors. All just trivial dust in the wind. War at the level of ideas, propaganda, politics, and law... that's where the true battlefield exists.
It's very easy to get impatient and unruly with wars, but they have to be carried out in disciplined fashion. There is a reason fighter pilots fly in formation rather than chaos. There are reasons of conservation and effective motion why armies discipline their fire rather than shooting away like crazy. Timing is everything in war, too. And we are simply not at a time for killing. We haven't been there yet. All that is a long way off.
Oh, bother. I run with the Catholics and they're too damn wussy half the time. I run with the militant Protestants and many are almost as goofy as my Mormon ancestors trying to break from the Union. We've been there before. Done that. Doesn't work. You can't fight the New Rome. You must influence her from within and wage war by other non-violent means so that the People see the truth and CHOOSE among FREE WILL to redeem themselves. To go against the Free Will of the People is to go against God and it is un-American, too.
That's the problem I have with rabid pro-life. They need to unify behind a non-violent cause like I AM a Person. They need to make massive propaganda war and unleash all that rage on strictly propaganda war. They need to have fun and laughs among that to lose the anger. Many things, but not being outlaws.

reply from: DocQuack

TROY NEWMAN NOTES
(from Wikipedia article mixed with www.MaggotPunks.com articles)
Newman wrote the brief book (ISBN 0-9720367-5-X) "Their Blood Cries Out" with his Vice-President, Cheryl Sullenger, who was convicted along with her husband in 1987 of conspiring to bomb an abortion clinic. In the book he finds Biblical justification for the execution of abortion providers and any woman who receives an abortion. This contradicts his demand for non-violence as expressed in a Rolling Stone interview.
* Very, very, very bothersome. I can certainly understand wanting abortion doctors and even women who abort executed UNDER THE LAW when the laws are changed, and having Old Testament justifications in that. Fine. The problem is that, among all that, we see a pattern of organizational madness and violence brewing here starting in 1987. Back then, that would put Troy Newman about age 21. I don't know Sullenger's age at the time, but it was probably in that range. Sounds to me like crazy Christian kid stuff. Almost forgivable considering the times. Bothersome all the same, though.
Newman moved his organizational headquarters to Wichita, Kansas. There, Operation Rescue West launched its "Year of Rebuke" campaign to expose those with political, professional, and social ties to late-term abortion provider George Tiller. He has shown support for Shelly Shannon who is serving a sentence for wounding Dr. Tiller in a gun attack in 1993.
** Bothersome if true. In 1993, Newman would have been about 27 years old. Fighting among pro-life a long time. This was the year of a greatly Occupied United States. Conservatives and pro-lifers were going crazy. He was still fairly young there. I can understand supporting Shannon, particularly if a friend. But, again, there's a pattern here that's most bothersome to me.
Newman is an ordained Elder in the Presbyterian Church of America. He is married to Karlena and has five children.
Since taking the original Operation Rescue moniker, Newman has provoked the ire of Operation Save America leader Philip "Flip" Benham, who has accused Newman of provoking violence in the defence of life. The two clashed during the 1993 execution of Paul Jennings Hill in Florida, Benham supporting the execution and Newman calling Hill a martyr. [1]
** Bothersome again. Same issue. Same age -- around 27. Chalk it all up to "youthful indiscretions", perhaps? Still, there's an outlaw pattern brewing.
Newman and Operation Rescue West are currently under IRS investigation for charges of money laundering and tax evasion.
** Bothersome. Of course, innocent until proven guilty. We know the Left levied those charges against many Conservative causes during the Clinton years. Being "under investigation" doesn't mean diddley doo. Convictions mean something. Statements like this -- particularly by "MaggotPunks" are not credible, but are considerable.
URL http://www.maggotpunks.com

"There is a history of arrests with Troy, largely pertaining to his more militant days with Operation Rescue. His most notorious arrests came while "preaching" to gay men in a public toilet by hanging over the doors and supposedly shouting bible verses at them. He was allegedly arrested twice doing this apparently unable to get off on just one voyeuristic voyage."
** Now that's too, too funny. I would have to throw it out of Judge Quacky's court as well deserved! If you're poop pushing in a public restroom, you deserve to get a guy shouting biblical versus at you, me thinks. I think public fornication like that is also illegal. Depends on the local area. Sounds to me like too much youthful, Christian fun and wholesome mayhem! Ms. Coco!! See what you've encouraged in the bathrooms, too??!!
"Troy made the claim to the L.A. Times (2/17/04) that he generates $250,000 a year in donations. To other people he says he dreams he could generate that much funding."
** Revenue considered. Other statement is hersay and possibly taken out of context or twisted.
"The fact is that he hasn't registered his "non-profit" organization with the state of Kansas. Thanks to having a former clinic protestor, Bryan Brown, overseeing such corruption Troy has managed to get away with not registering with the state. Without the corruption he would have to provide information to the state on exactly how much he makes. Perhaps we will be fortunate and it will all come to public light as Catholics for a Free Choice complained to the IRS about Operation Rescue's political activity against Senator John Kerry, putting Troy's tax-exempt status in jeopardy."
* Bothersome if true. This issue of how donor funds are applied personally and within a business are very serious matters which impact individual, associate, organizational, and cause integrity. If you are non-profit, you may not draw from organizational assets. If you are a for-profit firm, you can draw from entity assets.
*These allegations, however, can be greatly twisted out of whack. Newman and OR have not represented themselves as an IRS 501c as far as I know. Their last request letter informs donors money is not tax deductable. Small groups such as this -- only 12 or so missionary members -- probably didn't want to bother with the paperwork and scrutiny of the IRS. Why they would not register is also understandable.
*The question of criminality is for a court of law, but I see no serious ethics violations here -- depending upon what has been done with the organization funds. There does need to be some form of pro-life audit and public hearing if Newman and OR hope to regain credibility. Any properly run charity drawing from the public, public service organization, or publicly held company has a need and obligation to report to the public exactly how their monies are being spent. If a private company, that's a separate matter. If a small group with an informal cookie jar, the issue is less serious but accounting and periodic financial reporting is critical to mission integrity all the same. Otherwise people can claim you're all about money more so than pro-life; Couldn't get a job elsewhere, etc.
"The ADL was getting comments from extremists groups and they listed Troy as giving his belief why 9-11 happened, "Today the LORD has visited our land in judgment" and the "blood of over 44,000,000 pre-born children" brought about the destruction."
** I would not disagree too much there. St. Benedict and also Abe Lincoln both taught that great nations are subject to divine chastisement and need redemption in order to grow great again. That's why Lincoln proclaimed Thanksgiving a holiday in acknowledgment of God during the Civil War. There is nothing seditious or evil about believing this country chastised by God for her sins. I believe it, too. I believe it will only grow worse over time, also. First Lady Bush noted something in that regard, too, as I recall. Talk like that just spooks the Godless. To hell with them.
"Troy works hard to hide the location of his actual address. When charged with crimes in Bel Aire he presented a false address to the police. To help cover his tracks Troy has used Operation Rescue funds to purchase numerous properties which he rents out.
Here is a list of Troy Newman's property holdings:
--- - Lane, Wichita, KS 67278
----- Dr., Wichita, KS 67208
----, Wichita, KS 67211
--- St. Andover, KS 67002
A small lot behind the Central Clinic
His own residence is a house on a seven acre lot far from Wichita at: ----- Towanda, KS 67144
** MaggotPunks.com does, but I won't publish Newman's address history. In fact, he ought to be suing MaggotPunks over that in the same way abortionists sued pro-life for publishing home addresses of abortion doctors.
The total estimated property value of all the properties is $240,430. Troy has no real job so all this came from donations to Operation Rescue. Think Troy is stopping abortion by buying numerous houses? Think again, donations just line his pockets."
** These charges would seem to be pretty organizationally damning without hearing any reasons why. I can understand a charity opting to invest funds in real-estate in order to establish operations. I have heard something about Newman setting up office inside a former abortion clinic. Is he purchasing abortion clinics here? Safehouses for young girls needing crisis pregnancy care? What's the story?
* These expenditures ARE questionable, but not damning. Giving the benefit of the doubt, one might consider they purchased those properties in order to derive stable rental income for the organization of maybe a few thousand dollars per month to support staff salaries while seeing organizational equity gains? However, the name on the title of those homes must ethically be in the hands of Operation Rescue unless some overwhelming reason justifies it (Such as shelter from PP lawsuits, etc. I hear that's an OSA financial defense tactic and maybe Newman learned it there?).
* Upon any sale, those homes must ethically belong to Operation Rescue or pro-life in general, not Newman or any staffers. That's why people prefer to see an IRS 501c status which legally requires all that. If there is no tax exempt status like that, Newman and staff are entirely free to do with that money as they see fit. No criminality, I would think. It does raise very questionable pro-life ethics suspicions, however. Newman and OR needs to address that publicly.
Operation Rescue has no funds. Their new HQ is owned by Jeff White's Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust, their old HQ is owned by Love Box Co. and Troy has had to sell off his ill gotten real estate in order to pay the bills.
** To his credit, if Newman sold off "ill-gotten" real estate in order to pay Operation Rescue bills, this is not usually the behavior of a crook. A crook would have kept his real estate and distanced himself from the bankrupt company and cause -- walking away with personal gains. We know that the source making these statements against Newman is equally incredible and biased, though they raise many interesting allegations.
---
Troy Newman (born 1966) is an American pro-life activist. Born in Anchorage, Alaska, Newman was adopted as an infant and raised in the Southern California area. He is the president of Operation Rescue, known before 2002 as Operation Rescue West, which is currently based in Wichita, Kansas.
** Adopted? Probably seriously anti-abortion and pro-life presuming birth mother did not abort. There are better ways to make a money than feeding off pro-life, you know. I would not question their seriousness on pro-life, but the methods and underlying philosophies and religions need study. We have questions.
Newman became the head of this organization after Jeff White's Operation Rescue California closed due to legal judgements incurred by White.
** Need to further study the nature of those legal judgments.
Newman became the head of the California-based Operation Rescue West organization after Jeff White's Operation Rescue California closed due to legal judgements incurred by White. Newman moved his organizational headquarters to Wichita, Kansas. There, Operation Rescue West launched its "Year of Rebuke" campaign to expose those with political, professional, and social ties to late-term abortion provider George Tiller.
** Sounds like great work to me!
Newman developed the idea of using panel trucks to deliver his organization's message, and, thus, the "Truth Truck" fleet was created. These trucks, covered with graphic, billboard-sized images of aborted fetuses, have been driven across the United States.
** Great idea and work here.
Operation Rescue began documenting incidents of abortion-related injuries at the Women's Health Care Services requiring emergency hospitalization, including the third-trimester abortion death of Christin Gilbert, a 19-year-old with Down Syndrome. Information gathered by Operation Rescue contributed to the introduction of a strict clinic regulations bill in 2005, which passed both Houses of the Kansas Legislature by a two-thirds majority, but was vetoed by Governor Kathleen Sebelius.
** Great work here.
Newman helped lead a petition drive to convene a grand jury to investigate Gilbert's death and other wrongdoing by Tiller and his clinic. On July 31, 2006, the grand jury disbanded without returning indictments. It was later learned that the grand jury narrowly missed indicting Tiller on four charges by only one vote, due to witness stonewalling and a lack of access to records and witnesses.
** Great try all the same.
Operation Rescue participated in bringing public pressure that led to the revocation of Krishna Rajanna's medical license and the permanent closure of his Kansas City abortion clinic, which had been under investigation for substandard conditions.
** Great work there.
In September 2006, Newman and Army of God member Jonathan O'Toole showed up at an open-air gubernatorial debate dressed as cockroaches, protesting alleged unsanitary conditions at Tiller's clinic. Democratic State Rep. Vaughn Flora (Topeka) recognized Newman, tore his mask off, and was arrested for battery. Flora accepted a $100 fine in lieu of arraignment after the Kansas legislature adjourned for the year.
** Now that's funny!
As alleged by "Maggotpunks.com", Newman's organization receives hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations and has no paid staff; Newman refers to his staff as missionaries and, as a result, does not report their income. Using the donations, Newman has purchased hundreds of thousands of dollars of real estate throughout Kansas.
** Questionable. Who owns that real-estate in title, what are its purposes, and where is that rental income going? Where exactly did every dollar going into the organization go? How exactly was it used? If sheltering the organization assets from law-suit, clearly pro-lifers need to better clarify these things to the public or have some form of secretive legal dealings they can pull out to recover personal integrity when challenged by bortheads.
The organization remains small with about a dozen members, many of which are members who left California to relocate in Wichita.
** $250k divided by 12 doesn't leave much money per each person, so the money issue doesn't bother me too much. Questions to ask, certainly, but nothing too damning yet financially.
** Most bothersome to me remains the pattern of outlaw tendency painted to the man and the organization. These need to be cleaned up by pro-lifers and Newman better defended against such slanders. Or, if true, the activities really only serve to further divide pro-life. I am told a severe "hatchet job" was done on Newman by his pro-life OSA enemies and the bortheads, but they have done a very, very good job. The most serious allegations I have addressed.
-------------------
FaithMan? Mr. Crutcher? You guys are more familiar with this story than me and can better shed light on the matter. Possibly, many of these statements by Wikipedia and MaggotPunks are way out of context. I have tried to give every benefit of the doubt I can think of, but there are some areas I cannot defend too well and cannot support. All mentioned in the previous post.

reply from: DocQuack

[Since it is Sunday, Judge Quacky will give his sermon.]
Hey CP,
Thanks for all that dominionist Christianity posting. Very interesting reads. I was familiar with it under other names a decade ago, but not that.
Joking aside; Forum hostilities aside.....This issue of violence and excess behavior within the pro-life movement is something that needs to be continually addressed. It's a good thing the forum has flowed to that. I do not believe in politician-like double-speak. I don't believe in saying things softly to avoid offending people. When in doubt, I have learned the best course is always just to tell the truth as you see it and to hell with anyone else.
The truth is that I tend to lean on your side with this one -- on the matter of dominionist cults in general; Violence in general over pro-life, etc.
I can't fault or fully defend Troy Newman and OR. This is not a court. Men in his position and troublemaking take much heat and slander. As pro-lifers, we owe that consideration to him especially in light of those making the greatest allegations. There is a historical pattern and streak of militant Christianity to the organization -- whatever it can be defined as --which is beyond where I am willing to go.
The truth is that, as a Roman Catholic, I am a member of one the largest, "dominionist cults" in all the world. How so? Oh because we also wish to see the world conquered by Christ. ....and the Blessed Virgin Mary.....and the Pope, etc, etc. Empire Christendom we do fully dream of! Ah, but we have been there once before and history well remembers our Inquisition court nature and sins.
The truth is that, as a Catholic gazing upon the vast corruption to my own church -- all these left-wing, communist Catholics; All these "stewardship" of pagan Mother Earth Catholics; All these peace at all costs Catholics; All these toleration of kiddie pervert and gay and married priests "Catholics" -- I do not ever want to see a corrupt Church sitting in dominion again over kings and the law. The minute Rome and the Pope are too, too powerful.....well, hell, I guess I'll have to join ranks with the Protestants and Freemasons.
Christians often are suspicious of me, my agendas, or totally shocked that I almost sound like a Masonic propagandist here. No, I'm not. I'm well aware of the sins internal to Masonry. Having an extensive familiar background and schooling in those realms, I also understand that the majority of Masons tend to be some of our finest Americans. In government, politics, military, business, etc.....these are often highly moral men, of a watered down religion in itself, which is also a dominionist cult in itself. They do great good works. They weave within the government, military, and intelligence structure to such a degree that you cannot even hate Masonry; for she is the very foundation of this Republic. It is like a cancer which cannot be removed from the body without killing the patient. And you don't want to remove that body because, without it, there is only dominion by all these other religious cults of the world. So, I guess you could call me a Masonic sympathizer and even a fan to some degree, though I give my oaths only to Christ and Mary.
I am that way because it is Masonry which protected basic human freedoms against Church tyranny. And, yes, I'm well aware of her many evil conspiracies in the world, too. The idea of forming this Republic was a secular-humanist dream. The American dream is a secular-humanist dream. And many of our key Founding Fathers were not really all that Christian. They were deists in many cases. Washington, Franklin.....these were bad Christians. Heretical Christians. Men who should have been burnt at the stake if Judge Quacky were holding an Inquisition Court. Galileo, Copernicus, Dr. Hahnemann, Newton, and so many others.....all should have been burnt at the stake if my dominionist Church had her way in the world. Calvin, Luther, FaithMan, Mr. Crutcher, Pat Robertson, Dr. Dobson, Geroge Bush 1 and 2, ConcernedParent, Coco, NewMom, especially that Joel Olsteen who makes me want to puke, Jerry Falwell, so many others.....all these folks would have to be burnt at the stake in Judge Quacky's court.
But, have any of these modern, Protestant dominionist cults ever gained such heights of power and wealth in the world? Have they ever felt that corruption and demon within? Nope. These are all just the little dogs barking away. They've never been the big, mean doggy gobbling up sheep in the name of Christ. They actually think it's something to be admired as a Christian agenda. And that's where I can't buy into it.
When the Church is too powerful, I'm more Masonic and Protestant than Catholic. And I like an America run by sane Protestants and Masons. The last thing I ever want to see are my left-wing, pacifist Catholics sitting as President. JFK was about as left-wing Catholic as I'm willing to see up there in power, and the Protestant-Masonic system didn't seem to tolerate him too well, either. The Kennedy clan -- as they were -- is about as acceptable as they get in power. After that, it's too much Catholic power. I don't think JFK would have been pro-choice. I could be wrong on that.
Likewise, when the Masons and Protestants are too goofy, I lean on Rome for guidance. The Masons and Protestants have their dominionist cults corrupted by left-wing evils, too. The Jews have extreme right and left tearing away at them. Same for the moslems. There's a mushy middle to them all which is more reasonable, however. And that's a secular-humanist world which composes most the world's people. That's why I continually argue that Abortion must be argued on secular-humanist grounds as simply nonsensical, bad for national security, and bad for basic human rights. You don't need to argue any religion to know Abortion is the greatest moral evil of the last four decades. Holding that middle high ground is the power behind our cause. When we get too extreme, we lose power to save babies.
I was reading off the Operation Save America website the other day. They were talking something about how the only way to save America from abortion is to put Christ up front and have the restoration of Christ save her. I am not against that. I'm not all for it, either, because those who want to lead me to Christ are not usually those I care to have leading me anywhere -- let alone on religion.
The truth is, when it comes down to it, I'm an extremely anti-Protestant monster almost as insulting as FaithMan. I make Protestants cry when needled too much. I stir up their demons. I mess up their hair. I really tick them off when they tick me off. Why? Because I'm a "Mary-worshipping", proudly "idolatrous", "pagan" Catholic who isn't as "bible-based" as they would like me to be. Oh, it's a tricky thing to even keep friendly with Protestants when, if Judge Quacky had his way, I'd be burning them at the stake, too! Yes, even FaithMan and Mr. Crutcher! Absolutely this Troy Newman, most his OR, and that OSA for good measure, too. To the stake with them all!
To them, I'm non-biblical and straight from Hell. To us, they're heretics straight from Hell.
It doesn't get anymore dominionist cult than me! They're secretly dominionist. I'm dominionist. The Masons are dominionist. The moslem hordes are dominionist. The Jews are dominionist. You're dominionist in your own secular-humanist intellectual whatever way, CP.
We're all just perpetually at each other's throats when it comes to religion and the more extreme we get. It's a free country. You have to allow people to believe as they CHOOSE or sane Christianity no longer becomes safe under the law. And I believe that no other system of government is more Christian-compliant than the United States because, here, we are able to exercise Free Will to choose or reject Christ. It means nothing to God if men are forced into religion. Islam spreads that way by hook or crook. Without Free Will, there is no vindication of God; Only enslavement by God as the devilish and Gnostic legions claim. That's what Lucifer first argued to the angels, they say: that God is a tyrant. That's the argument most the world makes to this day when looking at the fanatical religious of the world.
At the same time, it's hard not to be a fanatic when the secular-humanist-demonic evils of the world grow daily in power while corrupting our system of government and leaving the people little say.
But, as I have repeatedly argued -- and I don't do that to suck up to the Government -- the problem is not with the American Government. The People do still run this country. That's why the politicians must pander and lie to us! That's why the "mainstream media" lies, twists, and dominates the public mind! They conspire over all that because the People and the law still hold ultimate power in this country, and, to go against that, is to be an enemy of the United States. It is to be un-American.
Pro-Life is not at all losing or over-run by her enemies. Out here in California in 2003, some 35% of our screwy legislature was rated pro-life in voting record by www.LifePriority.net overall records count. Congress and Senate scores in 2007 sit at around 50%. The People are picking their representatives, not "lawmakers", split right down the middle. And we can turn that tide in Pro-Life favor all the more.
But, being split like that is also a highly precarious fulcrum position. The slightest extremism and ugliness potentially tips the scales in favor of the bortheads for years to come.
Just one more year's delay in squashing Abortion results in over a million more babies lost.
Therefore, all pro-lifers, if they are truly pro-life, have a moral obligation to measure their behavior in light of how they potentially cost the war.
FaithMan and I are proudly crass and mean-spirited folks. He's extremist Protestant. I'm extremist Conservative Catholic, albeit a bad Catholic and no model Christian. But, I cannot call people like Paul Hill martyrs for the cause or not speak out against all this crazy Christianity in pro-life because it potentially does lose our pro-life momentum. It does turn the scales of the Justice Department against Pro-Life. It does delay our ability to save babies. It does turn public opinion against our cause. It fails to reasonably work with that mushy middle, secular-humanist epicenter of American power that is so key to winning this war.
I thank you, CP, for the scriptural reminder that we cannot do good by doing evil. Sometimes that's easy to forget.
My position against violence in the pro-life movement is not at all religious-based. I'm so sick of all this pacifist Christianity and my goo goo Catholic pals. I'm sick and tired of all these candlelight prayer vigil and wannabe Ghandi Catholic sorts!!! I'm tired of everyone throwing that Martin Luther King and his non-violent movement in my face as the way to be. I'm tired of all these Neo-Communist Catholics with their global socialist and overly humanitarian agendas. All these damn anti-war Catholics; anti-death penalty Catholics; Save the poor and save the world Catholics. Screw that! It's totally un-American half the time. If Judge Quacky had his way, he'd purge well over half the global Roman Catholic church and burn them at the stake first of all. Then, I'd burn all the Protestants!
By the time I had my dark way in the world, I'd have probably run through well over 90% of the world's Catholics and 90% of her Protestants. I'd probably order the kings to launch nukes upon all the moslems of the world just to lower my price of gas. While there, you might as well take out China's followers of Buddha and the Hindus in India, too. All in all, I'd have to nuke most the world and enslave all the rest in order to truly be happy in this world as the highly anti-social guy I really am deep down. People suck. People, for the most part -- no matter how good they are -- are all plain a-holes. If a man gets through life and only has a handful of true friends, that's about normal. Everybody wants oodles showing up for their funeral, but those are all shallow friends for the most part.
People are a-holes and I'm one, too. That's why we believe in a balance of power as Americans. The People of this country are completely selfish a-holes, and so you don't want their power growing too great. They put a-holes in office and as President all the time, so we need Judiciary to balance that. The judges and kings elected get corrupt thanks to the a-hole people, and so they need to be able to change them through Legislature. And those Judicial and Legislative a-holes are too incompetent and divided all the time to properly act as Commander-in-Chief when the country needs to kill. So, we have a nice balance of power in that Masonic and also Christian Holy Trinity triangle.
That's what I believe in governmentally and legally. It's what anyone in government and military is sworn to uphold, and so, whatever attempts to tear that system down or violate the structure of our New Rome, must be crucified. That's just how it is. The secular-humanist Masonic structure will simply never allow any form of Christianity or any other religion but itself to dominate government. And that's a few that is secular, Christian, and also Masonic. It's the silent majority.
As CP points out, the law and the Government defends and sanctions the killing of babies. And there is no way to rebel against this New Roman Empire. There is no way to change the law by extremely violating the law and moving to murder on behalf of the unborn. That only tips the public opinion, stacking of Legislature, momentum of the Executive branch, and Judicial views further prejudiced against Pro-Life. The slightest tip of the scales in that direction loses us hundreds of thousands and millions upon millions of babies. In this fight, just one man like Paul Hill can make a great difference in saving babies or costing us millions more. Paul Hill maybe was a martyr for what he believed a good cause and philosophy, but, at the larger view to things, actions like that only hurt the pro-life cause. I don't think he should have been executed and the Liberal government did crack down too hard in making an example of him when they won't execute, with high priority, so many other, far more evil murderers. Though I am still pro-death penalty, system abuses and unfairness of the judicial system in delivering capital punishment -- often for political and religious reasons -- does make the Catholic anti-death penalty position all the more appealing to me. I may just transform to an anti-capital punishment leftist yet!
Does that make me a pacifist? A pacifist that I would not want to see FaithMan executed if he went too crazy while I would much rather see murderous Wiccans hung? The system would gladly crucify FaithMan for resorting to violence, but would most certainly only give a little slap on the wrist to truly demonic killers. Who's that kid just the other day who put his baby in a microwave oven? Think they'll crucify him? Nope. Slap on the wrist. Psych evaluation. Mercy based in insanity. But, the Paul Hills of the world have to be lethally injected right away! The system is unjust with no doubts. So, with that in mind and other considerations, I can fully understand why extremist Catholics want to tear down the death penalty. I seriously can almost jump onboard with that under JPII's philosophy that breeding a Culture of Life is the best way to make the world less evil.
Wrapping it up, I think the entire problem with Christianity today is a breach of the old Three Pillars doctrine (taught long before there were Catholics and Protestants). It goes like this:
There are three critical pillars of the Church -- REASON, TRADITION, and REVELATION (scriptural and mystical). Wherever any of those three are broken or extreme, the Church exists warped and needing restoration by the other two. It's a Holy Trinity of balance just like the American government.
Let's look at some examples:
REASON & TRADITION DOMINANT (REVELATION neglected):
What's that? Oh, your average churchgoing "Christian" in any church. The ways of the world infect them. They engage in pseudo-intellectual vanity exercises. They reason many things. The soccer mommies come in with their Dr. Phil and Oprah reasonings to lead the Church. Protestants paying no attention to mystical revelations among the saints over the centuries; Catholics paying little attention to scriptural revelations. God is abandoned, yet they all hang out in church! Mostly because it is a tradition to be upkept. And so they go around Christmas and Easter more. Then, that's it.
REASON & REVELATION DOMINANT (TRADITION neglected):
Ah here, you get the whack job "Christians" always screaming on Christ Jeeeeeeeeeeezus! It used to be that "Solo Gracia, Solo Fidi, and Solo Scriptura!!!" were the Protestant war cries. But, because Protestantism tends to lack centralized leadership other than being "bible-based", every jackass Jim Jones and Tim McVey is able to hop on a soap box and pound a bible. Why? Because TRADITION of the Church tends to be more cast out. Yes, departure from corrupt Rome under Luther and King Henry was probably well-deserved back then, but there has to be some form of Protestant structure or things get insane. Institution is a bad thing which leads to corruption, certainly, but there is something to be said for sanity preservation when you stick to church bishops, elders, etc. Organizations and their sheep may be judged more cleanly that way. Not fruit loop, terrorist, homo, leftist, and socialist is able to take the Holy Bible and twist it to their various agendas. As true CONSERVATIVES, we try to conserve and perpetuate TRADITIONS for reasons of sanity. Else, CP is right: all goes to anarchy. And the symbol of the Anarchy movement is the partial Pentagram.
TRADITION & REVELATION DOMINANT (REASON neglected:
Here, you get the structured churches of various form while lacking any kind of sane REASON. You get Catholics often perpetuating bogus miracle traditions and bogus Marian apparitions and messages very different in character from the real ones and the real Our Lady miracles. That's why the Roman Catholic Church takes great pains in investigating saints and miracle reports.
Here, you get crazy moslems with their Koranic traditions and mystical revelations hellbent on conquering the world. You get Cabalists among the Jews. You get traditional oracular crazies among the Occult. You get oracular traditional crazies among the Protestants. That's the mystical madness.
Then, there's the Solo Scriptura madness which often lacks Solo Gracia and Solo Fidi in counterbalance! Or, in many cases, Solo Scriptural and Solo Fidi, indeed, but lacking greatly in Solo Gracia!
FaithMan, that's what we are, you know! As crass forum fornicators, 4given is right, it is "ungodly" the kind of mayhem we have enjoyed sewing here. It is lacking in Grace. It is a disgrace. It's fun at times. It's not anywhere near as disgraceful as these vile bortheads and closet PP. It's fun to be rude, crude, and nasty with these a-holes. But, in the end, it's not the way of Christ. It's not New Testament biblical. At the same time, on-line forums are not the real world. These are not real people we curse at. They're all just on-line avatars with big mouths usually saying what they have been wanting to unload and vent for a long time. Words, websites, publications, and trivial on-line affairs DO nothing for or against pro-life anywhere near as much as action.
All corruptions of Christianity I think you will find boil down to some form of corruption and loss of sanity balance within those holy trinities.
Remember the Four Cardinal virtues:
Prudence
Justice
Courage
Temperance
As far as being "bible-based" goes, there are 6 books deleted from the original Bible making 66 books Protestants tend to upkeep. Therefore, I will needle you all from my Catholic 72 book Bible from the Book of Wisdom (apocrypha to most Protestants):
"Love justice, you who judge the earth; think of the Lord in goodness and seek him in integrity of heart." Wisdom 1:1
"For perverse counsels separate a man from God, and his power, put to the proof, rebukes the foolhardy." Wisdom 1:2
"Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin." Wisdom 1:4
"For the holy spirit of discipline flees deceit and withdraws from senseless counsels; and when injustice occurs it is rebuked." Wisdom 1:5
"For wisdom is a kindly spirit, yet she acquits not the blasphemer of his guilty lips." Wisdom 1:6
"Therefore no one who utters wicked things can go unnoticed, nor will chastising condemnation pass him by." Wisdom 1:7.
"For the devices of the wicked man shall be scrutinized, and the sound of his words shall reach the Lord, for the chastisement of his transgressions;" Wisdom 1:9
"Because a jealous ear hearkens to everything and discordant grumblings are no secret. Therefore guard against profitless grumbling, and from calumny withhold your tongues; For a stealthy utterance does not go unpunished, and a lying mouth slays the soul." Wisdom 1:10-11.
"Court not death by your erring way of life, nor draw to yourselves destruction by the works of your hands.
Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living. For he fashioned all things that they might have being; and the creatures of the world are wholesome. And there is not a destructive drug among them nor any domain of the nether world on earth, for justice is undying." Wisdom 1:12-15
"Feared in the city is the man of railing speech, and he who talks rashly is hated.
A wise magistrate lends stability to his people, and the government of a prudent man is well ordered.
As the people's judge, so are his ministers; as the head of a city, its inhabitants.
A wanton king destroys his people, but a city grows through the wisdom of its princes.
Sovereignity over the earth is in the hand of God, who raises up on it the man of the hour;
Sovereignity over every man is in the hand of God, who imparts his majesty to the ruler.
No matter the wrong, do no violence to your neighbor, and do not walk the path of arrogance.
** Neighbor meaning one who isn't your officially and legally sanctioned enemy; One with equal rights under the law. It is arrogance to take the law into one's hands among an offensive motion. There are times when one must defend himself ruthlessly, but offense to one's neighbor -- even where he is engaged in state-sanctioned killing of the unborn -- is not an issue with our murderous, borthead neighbors. It is a matter the People must take up with the state and within the legal system. Otherwise we are not wise magistrates of Christianity and we cause instability to pro-life; We break down the order to government by prudent men. It is a great sin against the monster that is the state, and it is a sin which God does not bless. It is the fool's course which leads only to operational failure.
Odious to the Lord and to men is arrogance, and the sin of oppression they both hate.
Dominion is transferred from one people to another because of the violence of the arrogant.
Why are dust and ashes so proud? even during life man's body decays; A slight illness --the doctor jests, a king today -- tomorrow he is dead.
When a man dies, he inherits corruption; worms and gnats and maggots.
The beginning of pride is man's stubbornness in withdrawing his heard from his Maker;
** Withdrawing his heart from God by the worship of the idols of force, violence, and courage rather than law, order, prudence, temperance, and justice.
For pride is the reservoir of sin, a source which runs over with vice;
Because of it God sends unheard-of afflictions and brings men to utter ruin.
The thrones of the arrogant God overturns and establishes the lowly in their stead.
The roots of the proud God plucks up, to plant the humble in their place;
He breaks down their stem to the level of the ground, then digs their roots from the earth.
The traces of the proud God sweeps away and effaces the memory of them from the earth.
Insolence is not alloted to a man, nor stubborn anger to one born of woman."
---Sirach 9:18 to 10:1-18.
"All wisdom is fear of the Lord; perfect wisdom is the fulfillment of the law.
The knowledge of wickedness is not wisdom, nor is there prudence in the counsel of sinners.
There is a shrewdness that is detestable, while the simple man may be free from sin.
There are those with little understanding who fear God, and those of great intelligence who violate the law.
There is a shrewdness keen but dishonest, which by duplicity wins a judgment.
There is the wicked man who is bowed in grief, but is full of guile within;
He bows his head and feigns not to hear, but when not observed, he will take advantage of you;
Even though his lack of strength keeps him from sinning, when he finds the opportunity, he will do harm.
Once can tell a man by his appearance; a wise man is known as such when first met.
A man's attire, his hearty laughter and his gait, proclaim him for what he is."
-- Sirach 19: 17-26
"He who keeps the law controls his impulses; he who is perfect in fear of the Lord has wisdom.
He can never be taught who is not shrewd, but one form of shrewdness is thoroughly bitter.
A wise man's knowledge wells up in a flood, and his counsel, like a living spring.
A fool's mind is like a broken jar -- no knowledge can it hold.
When an intelligent man hears words of wisdom, he approves then and adds to them."
-- Sirach 21: 11-15
On the Preservation of Friendship
** Or national unity and pro-life unity.
"One who jabs the eye brings tears: he who pierces the heart bares its feelings.
He who throws stones at birds drives them away, and he who insults a friend breaks up the friendship.
Should you draw a sword against a friend, despair not, it can be undone.
Should you speak sharply to a friend, fear not, you can be reconciled.
But a contemptuous insult, a confidence broken, or a treacherous attack will drive away any friend."
-- Sirach 22: 19-22
Judge Quacky closes his Sunday sermon at that -- reminding himself and us all that we are to be "one nation (of friends) under God"; One Christian "fellowship" under Christ with polite room for the unbeliever, too.
There are simply manners of Christian behavior and action in the real world which act counterproductive to these things.
The war we fight with the vile bortheads is a ruthless one that we must carry out with great shrewdness and aggression, but one has to take care not to become so shrewd, aggressive, and violent that we make enemies of God and also the state. There is a kind of shrewdness and duplicity that God hates. You see that among politicians, "Christians", and pro-lifers, too.
But, of all things: Christian courage in seeking justice for the unborn must be backed by prudence and temperance if any action we take is to be pivotal....Cardinal Virtue....and at the fulcrum of tipping the scales in favor of the unborn.. Because we exist at the fulcrum position capable of making a difference in the Scales of Justice, our actions have to be all that more gentle in tipping the scales. The monster that is the state does not do anything but crucify those who try to force the scales over because those scales are established by the Free Will of the People and their CHOICE of Legislature and Executives who establish judges.
It is a great contradiction of religion, philosophy, and action to want to wage war for the legal overturn of Abortion while at the same time paying no respect to law, order, legislation, and the judicial system. There is on wisdom in such courses. You cannot ask Supreme Court justices to favor pro-life while at the same time thumbing your noses at them by engaging in murder of they borthead neighbor. The Supreme Court does not sanction such killing of bortheads. When pro-lifers do kill bortheads as a religion and philosophy all they do is make it harder for politicians to be unapologetically pro-life, and that makes it harder to establish pro-life justices. We cannot ask the law and judges to protect the unborn in the womb while at the same time paying no respect to law and order.
The law is the only thing that matters in this nation; for forces and men come and go like trivial dust in the wind. The killing of bortheads here and there does not change the law and the government which still sanctions the murder of babies. One cannot change the government's policies through compete disrespect of the law. You can only do that by having kings eager to hear your slightest thought. You can only do so by securing influence over the People, Legislation, Executive, and Judiciary among spreading the truth and devious pro-baby propaganda.
As angry white folk enslaved by Affirmative Action, look at how you are stuck with Dr. King holidays now! He agitated. He spoke well, not in vulgarity. He tipped the scales well in his cause's favor. He knew that you get nowhere by power of the sword. Every fool in the ash heap of military history and empires has always made the fatal mistake of believing too much in the power of force rather than ideas and dreams.

reply from: yoda

This entire thread seems to have been posted for the singular purpose of stirring up an old, festering animosity between two former prolife allies.
It's even been suggested that any prolifer who earns his daily bread by his prolife work, and is therefore a "professional" is suspect. Nothing could be more ludicrous. One who dedicates his entire life to this cause must be allowed to accept donations wherever they may be found.
And the quoting of comments from Wikipedia and the maggot punks is in extremely bad taste. Wikipedia is a collection of individual opinions, and can be edited by anyone. The maggot punks are the worst kind of liars and baby killers in this big wide world, and are the propaganda arm of none other than Killer Tiller of Wichita Kansas.
An no, one cannot be made to prove their charges accurate by the simple filing of a civil suit. That's backwards. The plaintiff must not only prove the statements to be false, but he must also prove that the defendant knew them to be false, and disseminated them with malice. And Troy has consistently taken the high road in his feud with Flip Benham and others, choosing not to dignify their smears with a response.
And if his association with Mark Crutcher is not enough to influence anyone as to Troy's character, then I suggest that they leave this forum, since it is owned by Mark Crutcher and his Life Dynamics organization. Surely no one would want to be associated with "questionable" prolifers, would they?
Get a grip, people. Fanning the flames of an old feud is a sorry way of entertaining yourselves.

reply from: DocQuack

Master Yoda,
Because lies are the domain of the Devil, I shall confess to being Ms. Lutherans for Life there.
Why did I do that?
1) Because a friend from the forum here suggested I hold an Inquisition in regard to the OSA and OR fight in order that Troy Newman's story of being so slandered might see daylight.
2) That friend wanted to introduce me to Mr. Newman for partnership regarding something we were working on so that maybe we might all participate together.
3) Upon review of the situation -- which I know very little about -- I decided that the whole Judge Quacky Inquisition thing would be inappropriate because, as you know, my Inquisition courts have no justice.
4) I decided to come in covertly for two reasons: a) Again demonstrating that it is all so easy to make up fiction on these threads just like the bortheads have been doing; b) Because, if started by someone else, surely people like CP would jump in to give a good effort to explain things where he might not have had I gone in under my own handle; c) I also preferred to comment on the matter as an observer rather than instigator, but, at this point, what the hell! I don't want to sew any forum discord among more confusion over the good name of a man, and so I confuse to being Mr. Lutherans4Life.
5) I never brought up the issue of Troy Newman with any intention to malign the man or slander him. I posted those attacks here by his enemies in the hopes that you, FaithMan, Mr. Crutcher, and others would address those issues to the satisfaction of forum users. And I did that because I was asked to do it by people who are fans of Troy Newman.
6) In all honesty, as I go along, I don't know what to think anymore. The man's enemies bring up many issues to question. If the man is being slandered, those allegations should be addressed, not under the explanation of giving credit to them, but because he has a following. His followers mingle among this forum, pro-life, Priests For Life, Life Dynamics, etc....and they hook up with people like me who know nothing about the issue. First thing, when you Google the man's name, he's painted very badly. If that's not true, pro-lifers need to fix it for the poor guy and his sheep. If it is true, it might help pro-life to dissect what was going on there.
---
Now, ConcernedParent I know you guys don't like. I don't know him. I thanked him for making some good points. I realize his views come from a totally different perspective from our own and some here hold him in suspicion. I don't have enough experience with CP to respond to anything other than what he presents at the time -- just like you do with all these forum posters.
Through anything I posted here, you can see that I am both raising these allegations against Newman and OR while I have tried to bring up points of consideration. The financial issues can all be explained away. All these allegations the Wikipedia and MaggotPunks folks make can be explained away and are fairly trivial.
I was told a good "hatchet job" was done to Mr. Newman, and so I have tried to set things up here for you all to help repair. Those were my intentions.
But, as I go along here, there's this continual question of whether or not an individual and organization approves of and indirectly encourages violence in the pro-life cause or not. There can be no shades of gray. One cannot "not condone violence officially while also not condemning it". That's like saying, "Well, I don't condone Abortion but I also will not condemn it." Or, "I don't condone murder but I also will not condemn it."
On serious moral issues that relate especially to Life, there can only be a right or a wrong. Something is either right or wrong under all conditions and for all people, or not. Black and white. No moral relativism. It is either okay to shoot abortionists or it is not. If it is okay, it ought to be encouraged all the more and proudly so! If it is not okay, it must be condemned as morally wrong and to be discouraged at all times. I lean on that latter end of things while I can fully understand pro-lifers going nuts.
The truth is I can't play with you guys anymore without knowing exactly where we all stand on the issue of violence in pro-life or not. I have been fond of everything I have been able to study so far of Mr. Crutcher's and LI's work, but people are, yes, judged by the friends and partners they keep. If you have a friend and he is your true friend, you cannot sit silent while he is slandered.
My understanding is that the friends of Newman wanted the subject brought up here because Troy Newman has nothing to hide. People who are his fans and enemies will clearly fight on the thread. I am neutral to the issue and do not want to be a moderator or Inquisitor here. I was asked to throw the topic out here and I did.
While doing so, the critics of OR make some pretty damning allegations and I, for one, would love to hear more arguments about it. Never at all meant to attack Mr. Newman with these matters.
But, the bottom line with me is that, if the allegations made by the critics are true, I am out of here. This dangerous philosophy of seeing it okay to slay abortion doctors as some sort of defense of the unborn....that will not do the pro-life cause any good. I know you guys can see that.
The issue cannot be something you just don't condone, but don't condemn. That's what you call duplicity; Forked-tongue devil talk; Politician and Gulliani-like talk. It has to exist in your heart as true or false; Black or white; Right or wrong. No iffy areas. If you are not strong against violence in pro-life, then you allow it to walk right in and I cannot be part of any such things. I would never distance myself from FaithMan, you, Mr. Crutcher, or Newman as potential friends no matter how much an enemy slanders them. I don't do things that way. But, one has to evaluate what is in an organization and individual's heart, their mind, and their philosophies.
This I AM a Person thing is capable of so much good if it is kept non-violent, but, if you just declare that officially while not meaning it in your heart, it will only flow to evil at some point. It will break down before ever even grown because built upon poor foundations.
I was watching a good program on EWTN today by old Bishop Sheen. He was lecturing on war and the causes of war. Two levels: Internal and External. Externally, he credited Penn with identifying some factors. Internally, though, he talked about how men cause war by existing in a state of internal, spiritual conflict. The man as God made him and the man as he makes himself.
Externally, we create statements, peace treaties, and all these fancy things. The League of Nations, etc. He even counted them. Bishop Sheen talked about some 4000 years of war in which there were only a couple hundred years of peace. And he noted that wars are becoming more frequent in modern times. He especially emphasized how men make all these external treaties and assemblies for peace, but, because they grow more and more selfish and divided within....it all breaks down into war. Men can say many things and talk, talk, talk but how they walk tells most about what they mean in their hearts.
I know these people who kill abortionists or would like to mean well and are good hearted deep down, but the point is that they exist with fractured souls and sanity; Fractured spirituality; Tainted religious and moral views which build a house and army upon poor foundation.
Men may be guilty of that in their pasts, but they cannot transform to something new and better until shedding their past belief systems.
We cannot say we have non-violent agendas at propaganda war while at the same time not "condemning and not condoning violence". To argue that we are non-violent Christians while at the same time justifying the murder of bortheads as defense of the unborn....this just doesn't compute. It's duplicitous and that is the way of Satan himself. It is that way within us because we all exist with divided souls.
Look at me. I change my icons here and my character changes. Like a spiritual schizzo, I flow from saying holy things to making demonical jokes and talk. Same for FaithMan. He's a good Christian. He's sincere on Life. He's sincere in every way. But, the more we go with this violence topic... the more I find he's spiritually divided within, too. It's the nature of living with contradictions. We all live with contradictory statements and actions at times.
To be a Christian brother is to point that out. I do so publicly because FaithMan is against violence. That's why he's into this I AM a Person thing as the best means of fighting Abortion. But, now and then I also hear him making the very same justifications of violence that supporters of Paul Hill do. They're calling Hill a martyr, etc. Deep down in the heart and depths of the mind, this Hill becomes a hero to be emulated if you do not correct that and argue why it is wrong; Why it is damaging to the cause.
I love you, FaithMan. I just can't accept those notions. I can't align with them. If you would publicly renounce them or explain it better, I would be happy to support I AM a Person in all ways. I don't care of a man or organization's past sins as long as they see those errors and want to be better. We are all imperfect and internally divided. But allowing those internal spiritual divisions within us to keep festering....that will only boil over into something bad at some point.
I love some of the work Troy Newman has done and, as you pointed out, people need to feed themselves. All that financial stuff is fine by me, but one must question an organization's core philosophies and religion.
I am not taking ConcernedParent's side here. I was asked to throw out the topic, and so I did. I don't do yellow journalism and puff pieces. Christians appreciate and are to serve truth. If all of Mr. Newman and OR work is to be repaired and made into something beneficial for pro-life, it has to be militantly non-violent and truly sincere in that regard.
That's the biggest area where I disagree. No, I am not some plant from Fr. Pavone and Priests for Life, but, yes, I do fully agree with their position against violence in the pro-life movement. As I have stated before in private, I do not agree with the $50k award for pro-life snitching. That money could go to saving babies, certainly.
If I were a judge sentencing someone like Paul Hill, I would have given him a few years jail time like all these other murderers -- and off in a year or two on parole with good behavior, etc. I would not have executed the man at all. But, I believe in the supremacy of the law and the need to at least do some wrist slapping in cases like that to the same degree the judicial system lets other murderers loose. That doesn't mean I consider Hill a martyr or his actions right, but just that he committed a serious wrong damaging to the cause, needed spanking, and the borthead system did deal with him unjustly.
That's a better way of saying what I truly mean regarding the Hill case. There is no conflict there between what I say on the surface and what I mean in my heart. Therefore, I am not lying to myself or potentially allowing my internal spiritual and moral division there to go unchecked.
I was asked to throw the topic out and to "let the chips fall where they may". That is the truth. The full truth I have spoken here regarding this thread. I think the issue is critical to bring up and debate on this forum. Maybe not Newman and OR, but in regard to this lingering philosophy of ambiguity in regard to violence on behalf of pro-life.
Ambiguity is evil. It is like Pontious Pilate was in regard to Christ's crucifixion. Had Pilate had any moral courage, he would not have let an innocent man be crucified like that. Instead, Herod wanted to let Pilate do the kill. Pilate wanted to bounce it back to Herod. All just politician duplicity. Saying things on the surface, but meaning differently in their heart. Duplicity and internal division between the mind, heart, and action are exactly what crucified Our Lord.
We should learn from that and not do it again. To thine own self be true! That's all I'm saying. Know exactly where you stand and be fully honest with others about that. Better to disagree early on and part ways than to establish friendships and associations under pretenses and serious religious and philosophic disagreement.
I know FaithMan, deep in his heart, does not believe killing bortheads does any good. The angry, carnal, pro-life warrior side of his I believe has him saying things in defense of Hill when it could be thought about better and said better. We are all guilty of doing that at times in anger.
As for Mr. Newman, he and his following cannot let himself be slandered like that if those allegations are untrue. He has an obligation to his sheep and to pro-life in general to address those allegations. If Mr. Crutcher is his friend, then they should not delete this thread or these comments but rather use this as an opportunity to get their friend's name at least more clear on the Internet. At least here, when people Google the name "Troy Newman", this debate will come up in contrast to all that Maggot Punks and Wikipedia stuff.
I don't know the man. You guys know him. Defend your friend. I have played Devil's Advocate to give you that opportunity and I am not fit to judge the man, but I, myself, do have questions. They are not questions meant to cast doubt or attack, but just questions I honestly have and would like answered about all that pro-life Christian culture and even this forum's relation to it.
I was asked to raise the issue here due to the recent attacks upon Newman in the last 2 days. ConcernedParent is presently dominating the thread with anti-Newman chatter. I have added in my own thoughts and considerations as truthfully as I can figure them. The rest is for you guys.
Gotta go. Dinner's burning.

reply from: yoda

Posting under various handles does not enhance your "image" here, IMO. But that's your call, I won't substitute my judgment for yours in the matter of tactics.
That's three reasons. No further comment.
Mr. Newman has been informed of these attacks, and has declined to personally respond to them. If there is any detailed response to be made, it could only appropriately come from him. Since he has declined to do so, I will respect his decision and not try to speak for him.
His decision to "turn the other cheek", and "take the high road" is a perfectly respectable response, IMO. I will not criticize him for that decision, nor attempt to speak for him.
Quite honestly, if allegations against me came from those two sources, I would not dignify them with a response either.
I disagree. I have heard the arguments of those who sympathize with the violent antiabortionists, without endorsing their methods, and they are powerful arguments. For example, how would you react if killing 4 year old kids was legal, and you knew of a place where it was happening? Would you feel justified in using violence to stop this atrocity? If your answer is yes, then by all means tell me why that would be different.
By all means, tell me why that using physical force and/or violence to protect the lives of unborn children is morally wrong, and yet the same force is justified after the child has moved a few inches and been born. Take your time, and be specific, please.
Then you need only to ask each individual for their opinion, for I can guarantee you that none will feel exactly the same about any subject. There is no "you guys" who stand in exactly the same place on this or any other subject. Please, don't stereotype prolifers.
Follow your own conscience, always. Personally, I don't see such violence as helpful to the prolife cause, so I do not endorse it. But just as I don't chastise you for taking on fake ID's on this forum, I don't criticize the motives of those who sincerely believe violence to be the proper way to save babies. Their hearts are for someone greater than I to judge, I will not pass judgment on them.
Now you may not like this answer, but it comes straight from my heart and that's the same answer you'll get from me every time you ask.
As you know, I do not comment on religious principles. But I would say that it seems logical to leave their "souls and sanity" for someone greater than I to pass judgment upon.
Question all you like, but if you reference Wikipedia and the maggot punks in those question, you will lose my attention and my respect.
I don't think he or his organization need "repair". I think they need honest people to consider the sources of these attacks.
It does no one any good to mischaracterize the motives of others. Ask the individual what their motives are before you attempt to tell them why their motives are wrong. You can't read minds, you know?
No, he does not have any such obligation. Poor and immoral behavior by one does not obligate another to respond in kind.
Have you no understanding of the principle of "turning the other cheek"?

reply from: DocQuack

Master Yoda,
I am starting to see how it goes in here when someone disagrees with the powers that be. Very interesting. Attack a man's typos when you don't like what he says, but not when you do, eh?
As for my "image", I am quack proudly. That means I have no image and, being pro-life, I have only a worse image. Being associated now to any in here, any image I may have is all the worse. But, I have spoken my mind and heart here honestly. That's all I can do.
As for CP's question, yes, I have seen the Rolling Stones article. There's really nothing in that of ORW's harassment activities of abortionists that bothers me. The radical Left does the same. It's nice to see them suffer a dose of their own medicine. But, I warn you all wherever engaged in such things: you walk a very fine line between what is legally tolerable and what isn't. It's a rowdy offensive ORW takes there against Abortion and it's nice to see. And that's why it's all the more critical that he and all of you work to maintain greater "fire control" over your forces. If you don't set the rules clearly from the start of such actions, all you wind up doing is condoning them by failure to discourage them. All it takes is one crazy to hang out with ORW among stuff like that, whack another abortionist, and everything there damages the cause more than anything they're trying to do.
I agree with the devious nature of all that. And I understand that speaking out against violence more forcefully is actually contrary to the psychological warfare objective there in scaring bortheads out of their homes and towns, etc. But, you at least do that if only for the sake of keeping your oganization innocent. If people won't even by wily like that, I do question the sanity to things. And I sincerely believe that not being forceful against pro-life violence is totally the wrong way to go. If this were the Dr. King civil rights movement, what it all sounds like to me is more like the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam mixed up with the civil rights movement. If the Black Panthers didn't have Dr. King always calling for non-violence, their cause and everything King tried to push would have been easily run through by the state and angry People.
As for your question:
I disagree. I have heard the arguments of those who sympathize with the violent antiabortionists, without endorsing their methods, and they are powerful arguments. For example, how would you react if killing 4 year old kids was legal, and you knew of a place where it was happening? Would you feel justified in using violence to stop this atrocity? If your answer is yes, then by all means tell me why that would be different.
My answer is yes. If a neighbor were killing children in his home or anywhere, the use of lethal force is justified in stopping that felony. Even if it were legal for him to kill that child, it would be morally acceptable to use lethal force in stopping that murder.
And I can fully understand one's trying to extend that argument to making it okay to kill the abortionist or anyone around abortion. If the womb-child has personhood, and it does, then we should be killing for it is the argument.
The problem with that argument is that, while it is illegal to be killing born people, the state, the laws, and the People authorize the murder of children in the womb. And, your argument becomes the arguments of felons executed as "martyrs" for the cause.
This notion that you can sit on the fence and say, "Well, I personally don't agree with it, but I will not condemn it or condone it," that is equally flawed.
It's the same as the pro-choicer saying, "Well, I don't agree with abortion, but I don't condemn people who do it or those who keep their babies."
How about, "Oh, I don't agree with what the Nazis are doing to the Jews, but I won't condemn it and I won't condone it."
You can't have moral ambiguity like that and expect to lead a cause properly. There have to be clearly defined rules of engagement. What is proper conduct in war and what is not ever acceptable. Without that, all you have is a crazy lynch mob. All it takes is one meth-loaded or drunk skinhead or White Christian supremacist sort to join on with ORW's cause, make trouble, kill people, and it's over. I AM a Person trashed. Life Dynamics trashed. ORW trashed. Pro-life hurt all the more. There has to be clarity and rules of engagement clearly defined and that is the responsibility of any who would lead sheep.
But, going back to your question, my answer, again, is very simple:
If you would expect this country, her People, and her judicial system to ever overturn Roe v. Wade and ban abortion for decade upon decade to come, you must respect the law. You cannot ask the judicial system to do your bidding when while not paying respects to that very same judicial system. And you cannot ask the People to sympathize with and CHOOSE the cause you make for the unborn if you do not allow them the CHOICE to redeem themselves.
While I can understand and appreciate many of ORW's tactics, the People do not like being forced to do anyone's will. All they see is a bunch of deranged Christians sometimes going too far. And that's fine. Pro-Life needs the pacifist protesters and the agitators alike, but, when you are an agitator, you have to be all the more non-violent and gentle or all you do is encourage it. If you pay lip service to being non-violent while giving a winky wink to it....that's wrong. It's morally wrong. It's gonna get people more and more in trouble.
I fight to win, not to lose. Everything I have ever been taught or know is right and wrong tells me that's just no good and I cannot say otherwise. I will not participate in otherwise. There is no sane prolifer Christian or secularist prolifer I know who would not object to this lethal force argument.
It isn't always to be followed and, yeah, sometimes you break it, but I believe in the law and the system this country set in place. I believe you have to at least try to obey it and work within at all times. Anything else is the behavior out outlaws. And outlaws have never been able to change this country's opinion on anything. They only wind up dead with the public mocking them.
The other problem with all this crap is that there is a reason we have a judicial system, juries, and all that. It's so the innocent are not convicted unjustly. Even the abortionist has a right to a fair trial by jury. All it takes is some lynch mob yahoos to finger the wrong man or some whack job out there to shoot the wrong guy, and...poof....you've hurt the cause all the more. Why? Because it's taking the law into your own hands. It's denying the accused any ability to legally defend himself. It's playing judge, jury, and executioner all in one which is power too much to be entrusted to individuals and lynch mobs.
In every nation under the sun which has set up governments, law, and order... you don't ever screw with the king's right to try the accused. It doesn't get the individual, group, and cause anything other than destruction. It's madness.
Now, I know you can throw back at me arguments of Resistance against the Nazis and how lethal force against such murderers is fully justified, and it is. But, the United States Government is not a Nazi regime. Things have not decayed that far yet. Things WERE NOT LIKE THAT BACK IN 1987, either.
It's a free country. You can do and think as you like, but I can see there is no room for debate or difference of opinion. As for my "image" on the forum, don't worry about that. I'm out of here.
I wish you all the best, continued victories for babies, and hope you come to see the great error of these fighting philosophies and styles. There is no other issue within pro-life that I see as more critical in preserving integrity of the cause than this one. If the only thing I can do to emphasize the total lack of support most Americans and pro-lifers have for these views is my departure, so be it. Any help I could have been is pretty much cut off at the legs by such talk.
I came in here as friend to the true anti-aborts in here and I leave as one, but I see the direction things are going and it's best we cut that off now.
Take care

reply from: DocQuack

Well, I intended for that to be my last activity on the forum but dropped by once more to look for any responses and noticed you egging me on, CP.
I have no defenses for ORW, am not terribly familiar with them, and thank you for further questioning me there. Yes, I should clarify that statement you question: Nothing of their harassment that Rolling Stone reported in that article terribly bothers my conscience. Nope. Not bothered by it at all....if I could be sure picketing and pestering was all it was or would lead to.
I just lean toward pro-life styles typical of the Catholic Church. Even if many Catholics do secretly have such views and smile when abortion doctors are whacked (yes, I would admit to smiling over that), at the very least, there's a squeaky clean Catholic school bad boy factor they uphold. You discourage it. You don't want it among your holy half. The demoniacal half of you does love it. It is perfectly normal to have such contradictory states of conscience and heart, but, as Christians, we are supposed to seek to be more Christ-like and not value devilishness and violence as a virtue. And all that is needed for evil to fester is for good men to say nothing, do nothing, and not be forceful enough in discouraging it.
It's the same issue as the conduct of this present war. If you would command troops -- all just rowdy, young men eager to kill for country and cause -- you have to set the rules of engagement up front. They have to know what is acceptable, when, how, and what is never acceptable. If you tell them, "When in a foreign port, we don't condone rape of local women but don't condemn it if you get horny enough"... they take that as a winky wink authorization to do it so long as keeping everything secret. But, stuff goes wrong among those who yield to carnal ways.
The commander has the top priority of morally guiding all those under him. He is ultimately accountable for the actions of his men, and, with that accountability in mind, anything they do is a reflection upon him. Thus, he sets the standards up front with no uncertainty. He leads by example. An example of moral ambiguity -- particularly in regard to murder -- leads to operational ambiguity and moral relativism. It's a powder keg situation just waiting for the right spark if you don't work to defuse it immediately and at all times.
I see by your response that you have a clear picture of the implications behind OR's tactics. Most notable is your comment about "scaring bortheads." Will you concede that this basically constitutes what is known as terrorism? You imply that you approve of such methods...So, can I safely assume that your position is that violence is not acceptable, but the threat of violence is?
No, you misread my statement there. I made the remark meaning that I fully understand that it is difficult for an organization to "condone or condemn" violence if your organizational intentions are to leave ambiguity and fear in the mind of bortheads. Fear of violence, yes. I don't know if that is OR's intention, but they allegedly mail death threats or that happens around them. That's wrong. That is not exactly terrorism in my book, but it's approaching the definition, yes. Approaching it way too close, yes. There's the action which is more criminal and then there's the threat of action. If it's more than implied, that's a threat. A threat against anyone is grounds for the use of lethal force in shutting it down. So, right there, there's a major problem brewing for this kind of mindset -- especially in post-9/11 years and with Liberal Nazis likely to take over the Government again. It's just asking for trouble to behave like that and, worse yet, if you mean it.
No, I do not agree with any threats of violence at all and I mean that sincerely. If you're going to kill, you just kill. I don't agree at all with an organization sending intimidating letters through the U.S. Postal Service. Nope. Actual threats are different. Implied threats. Veiled threats. Perceived threats among cowardly sorts.... that's all murky water. It's the actual threat which counts.
None of that TALK bothers me anywhere near as much as moral ambiguity on the issue of murder because then those potential threats are no longer hollow pranks or mere intimidation tactics. They're dead serious then. And, these days, it's harder and harder to judge the nature of threats so police take them more seriously.
I should not have generalized a kind of blanket endorsement there for ORW's tactics which allowed you to point that out. Thanks for correcting me. When I typed that remark, I meant the overall harassment they render to abortionists and staffers doesn't bother me in the least. The picketing outside their homes, contacting neighbors, and generally boycotting to the degree of trying to run them out of town...I'm okay with that. It's not something I care to directly participate in or support. That people do it among this fight doesn't bother me. I guess you could say that I don't "condemn or condone" it since it's fashionable to be that way!
Is there fear involved with that? Certainly, but just because borthead cowards claim to be afraid of everything does not make that terrorism. Just because people picket an abortion clinic does not make that a "threat of violence" or terrorism. Just because people hate you and call you names and scream away at your workplace or pester you in different phases of your life....that's not terrorism. It's stalking, certainly. It's intimidation. The fearful might want to get a restraining order. They might want to hire contract security or even hits to fix that, but there's a degree to it that is legal and certainly moral in this fight. That OR tries to make it so you can't get your laundry done in town...again, not terrorism. Dirty tricks and tactics? Yup. Do I care? Nope. Do I laugh at all that? Yup. Fine and dandy by me. If you're engaged in killing babies, people can know about that and not like you. You pick your profession and that's just the name of the game. I could care less.
But, there is a line you cannot cross as pro-lifers. All those dirty tactics would be just fine and dandy if surrounded in a cloud of non-violence and no threats of violence; No history of violence. You have to at least constantly push for non-violence and truly mean it. Then you can boycott and picket all you like. You can be devious at times. But, stalking and these other things which can encourage violence while doing nothing to restrain it.....yeah, that's very serious stuff. Paul Hills and others are bred in such cultures. You have to put a check on that.
All of that is just not my style to pro-life. There's a degree of it I'm willing to accept and even work with, but there's a line you cannot cross. Where does that line exist? Right there among that moral ambiguity in regard to killing for pro-life. [/U] When it's spoken once or twice among joking, it's no bother. When it's a serious philosophy, that's a major problem.
That steers organizational and individual minds and souls so greatly. If you're willing to make that compromise, there are many other subsidiary moral and criminal patterns that will surely exist under the umbrella. One has to fully overhaul these contradictory pro-life philosophies in order to have an effective organization within the pro-life cause. Walking that philosophic road only leads to madness and, yes, terrorism and many other potentially criminal or seedy things.
That's why I really liked FaithMan's I AM a Person thing. It's non-violent. It's something that can be expanded to strictly propaganda warfare capable of saving so many babies. If you can just sever all that worldly agenda to fight, fight, fight and focus strictly on propaganda -- as FaithMan wants to do -- you can save babies. You can do it all and wound these Planned Barrenhood sorts without ever traumatizing people or killing. FaithMan and Yodavater fully understand that. It's a great thing. But, it cannot be what it can be or even have a chance to grow if there is any kind of moral ambiguity in regard to this issue of violence in pro-life.
FaithMan rejects violence as does Yoda. They say that and I believe they mean it. But, my point that I cannot emphasize enough is that, if you uphold a philosophy that considers violence acceptable on behalf of the unborn for whatever reasons....among all this *****-disturbing and all that rowdy culture, something is bound to spark that powder keg at some point.
FaithMan and Yoda are not at all terrorists to the best of my ability to see from here, but, if you keep that moral ambiguity and hang around with others who do -- and respect pro-life murderers as "martyrs" -- sooner or later, you will be a terrorist, accomplice, or related to all of that along with the cause you pushed.
To not become that, one must first have a change of mind and heart. I know FaithMan exists there. I know Yoda exists there. But, they make contradictory statements which can potentially mislead the mind and heart if riled up enough. And that's been a history surrounding that whole OR story and peripherals. It comes from that bankrupt philosophy.
I return to Bishop Sheen's lecture about how wars are caused by External and Internal reasons among men. You can say things and draft treaty upon treaty EXTERNALLY. But, internally men exist divided in spirit and conscience at all times. It is their natural state. There is the man as God wants him to be, and the man as he wants himself to be. This issue of listening to what the carnal self wants more so than what God wants....that's where good men often pave the road to Hell.
What we treasure or uphold as virtue is where the heart and soul soon follow. That's why there can be no ambiguity in moral virtues regarding killing or not killing. You either value killing and do it well or you do not value killing and see it as the least of all strategic courses. To exist with moral ambiguity there while we are all greatly internally divided between Heaven and Hell as spiritual beings...that's very, very dangerous. It's a formula for certain eruption into war. If not with the individuals, with the culture around them that upholds this Paul Hill martyrdom sort of thinking. What we think about and set our minds to, the action becomes. Maybe not with us, but with those who look to us for leadership and guidance.
There are some 1500 members on this forum. Most silent. Most not even reading this. But, there are confused youngsters among us reading this right now. They want to follow anything that squashes Abortion. They like fun and mayhem as we all do. They like vulgar rabble rousing and are so sick of all this political correctness. Pro-lifers are demoralized greatly and are willing to go anywhere if it squashes abortion. But, this cause sits in a pivotal position with the ability to turn the tide all the more for or against abortion over the next 5 to 10 years. That's a very delicate position for the movement and it has to be done gently with sustained aggression.
The OR activities out there in Kansas I can fully understand considering what they've been fighting, but, again, moral ambiguity projected by leadership becomes moral ambiguity in organizational and followership action eventually. That does have to be corrected and the whole organizational reputation cleaned up. If a man and organization's good name are slandered, that needs to be fought over.
CP, no more questions. I'm out of here.
I fully support the I AM a Person campaign itself where not used in any nasty fashions, for violence, or anything terribly seedy. I just have major philosophic and religious differences on these other matters surrounding pro-life behavior and ideology. If I would serve the babies best, I have an obligation to point that out so that none of these other pro-life behaviors ever hinder the IAAP campaign.
In regard to Operation Rescue, I meant none of their pestering, picketing, and running bortheads out of town behavior bothers me. None of this Life Dynamics non-violent attack on bortheads bothers me -- propaganda, litigation, investigations, etc. But, you have to draw the lines clearly when it comes to toleration of lying, cheating, stealing, any form of criminal conduct, and especially murder. We are dealing with a lying, cheating, stealing, criminal, and murderous borthead enemy, certainly. At times, one also needs to engage in ruthlessness, but all that has to be guided by a larger Grand Strategy, philosophy, and appropriate morals...or it all flops.
It's not about being goody goody Boy Scouts and Christian pacifists, but there are some lines you just cannot cross and have to paint very clearly. As are great nations, great organizations and causes arise and fall exactly upon the foundations of Faith and Morals. Where the foundation is poor, the house will collapse among the slightest gust of wind.
I also believe it possible for such organizations to change their ways and evolve over time, but sometimes that's impossible.
I only know that FaithMan sincerely wants to push I AM a Person as the most effective, non-violent means of saving babies, and that should be supported by all pro-lifers. But, that's very difficult to do with all this contradictory philosophy at times about the role of violence and non-violence in life. How can I ask mothers with young children out here to carry our anti-abortion cards while, surrounding the cause, we yap about (and teach youth) that killing bortheads is okay?
To break from that, the Christian has to soul-search and realize how such talk is really the Devil talking, not Christ through us. It's a surrender to the carnal. It is rooted in fear and anger which can only be offset by sadness and joy. Sadness for the unborn and the aborting mothers, too. Sadness and pity for even the abortionist. And then fun cultivated in Pro-Life again. Many laughs. Good times among picketing. Trust in God and prayer rather than the actions of men.

...Then, it can all become a great, great thing. But, first you have to want that more than you want to hold onto your anger and hatred. There is a kind of shrewdness which pretends not to have hatred, but does. We must purge even that from the heart, too. It's a difficult, difficult thing to make St. Peter sorts lay down their sword and desire for the sword when pissy, but those were the commands of Christ when Rome was aborting him as an adult, too.
I think a lot of the insanity in the Christian Right and pro-life movement comes from fear and anger. We see all these babies being murdered and tend to forget that we do have a just God. Surely, a just God has a beautiful plan in the works for all these lost babies. They're the true martyrs. The Church has always been built upon the blood of TRUE martyrs. Any good God has some sort of plan in store for those babies that we just cannot see at the time any more than the Jews around Judas or the Christians being fed to the lions knew the plan.
Why are the babies being fed to the lions? Surely, they must be some sort of foundation stones for a new and better world. Thus, their deaths are nothing to be sad, fearful, or angry about. Their deaths are not in our hands. Saving them is not in our hands. There is work we must do, but drawing swords on things like this only leads to nothing. Taking up the sword without sanction is the way of Judas. It is not the way of the Apostles among all their persecution which surely fed babies to the lions back then, too. We can make propaganda war, psychological war, legal war, economic war, political war, and many other forms vastly more effective than killing. These are the highest domains of warfare regardless of any religious or moral considerations. Killing is what goes on when all other options are gone, but it is morally wrong when you do have many other options.
See you around.

reply from: yoda

I see you have declined to respond to my question. That's about as I expected.
As to YOUR questions, I also see that you place obedience to the law above conscience. That means, of course, that had you lived under a repressive regime like the Third Reich or Stalin's Soviet Union, you would've been a good little citizen and happily turned your fellow citizens in for such crimes as "being Jewish", or "sympathizing with the Jews", or "criticizing our great leader", and watched them be executed for such crimes. Being slavishly devoted to the law and placing it over morality is a very immoral stance, IMO.
That "compulsion" is the real mystery to me. What other prolife leaders do you feel "compelled" to attack, and why? What credentials do you have for criticizing anyone in the prolife movement? Are you so "without sin" that you feel justified in casting stones? Is that your concept of "helping" the prolife movement..... character assassination of the leaders? Nobody cares if you support a particular leader or not, but only a very small person would sit in their anonymous little ivory tower and cast stones at those who are dedicating their lives to save babies.
Yes, and here's my favorite quote from that hatchet job article:
"I'm not going to lose my job, I'm not going to lose my house, I'm not going to have my kids starving! I'm sorry. You're not worth it."
"What about the little babies?" Sullenger says.
"The babies are not worth it, either."

reply from: yoda

Now you're reading his mind too? My, what talents you claim to have!!
And how sad that you use them to such a negative purpose.

reply from: yoda

You totally ignore my stipulation in my that such killing be legal: I said" how would you react if killing 4 year old kids was legal", and launch into a justification of choosing law over morality? How is that a response to my question?
No, it isn't. I can disagree with tactics without morally condemning them. You ignore that fact.
Horse manure. People have always disobeyed those laws they consider immoral. That's nothing new.
"Victory at any price"? Even at the price of ignoring your own conscience? NO, thank you.
On what charge?
What does that have to do with anything?
The principle of holding morality above the law is THE SAME, no matter where it occurs. If you are incapable of discussing principles without demanding absolute equality in all conditions, then you are promoting moral relativism. And I consider that disgusting.
Who cares? Do you follow your conscience, or "go with the flow" of public opinion?

reply from: yoda

And yet, the Pope has recently issued an official statement that morality must be above the letter of the law. Did you miss that one?

reply from: yoda

Is self-contradiction a specialty with you?
If I haven't "clearly stated a position", how can I be "clearly supportive"?
And here's an idea: Why not let people state their positions themselves, and then quote them accurately?
Wouldn't that be novel.... unusual....... unique?????

reply from: DocQuack

Yoda, please. No more questions. I wish to depart from here and not argue further. It will only lead to no good.
I will repeat again:
1) What is not discouraged with aggression -- particularly on this issue -- is simply tolerated. There's an old saying among the military called the cadet honor code: "We will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate any who do." Why? Because it dishonors the officer corps and breeds bad stuff. If people would lead organizations as their officers, they have to uphold sane leadership standards. You can be crass and unruly devils, but once taking any kind of oath of office or organization, all that has to change in responsibility to the sheep below. You may never ask sheep to do that which we are not willing to do ourselves, and so what we are willing to tolerate becomes what the sheep are willing to do!

2) You must extend that Honor Code to the pro-life movement: "We will not lie, cheat, steal, murder....or tolerate any who do." If you don't establish that code, push it, and enforce it....then all you wind up with is lying, cheating, stealing, and murder. Moral ambiguity like that ultimately stains all those around who tolerate it.
3) There is too much trust in worldly ways. That's the problem. It all boils down to the sin of Vanity when fully examined. Trust in the power of the self (and the sword) rather than God. Trust in one's intellect rather than God. Trust too much in one's actions and inactions rather than God. It is to be engulfed too much in worldly ways. That's a classic Protestant "Kingdom of Heaven on Earth" streak and all the more dangerous a path to walk for agnostics.

You may not believe in anything I argue here, but I know the the voice of the Devil himself when I hear it in men, and that's all I need to know. He is always chipping away at us and makes fools of us where we do not guard against that at all times. I have fought him before among Protestants and Catholics, and you will always find that he is more entrenched deep within their souls than in any other sheep on earth. That's because he salivates over their souls and control of their minds and hearts most. He misleads men and organizations. He moves among them like a dark and unseen cloud -- exploiting the least door left open and bringing in devil... upon devil... upon devil to inhabit the men and institutions; To further corrupt and mislead them into destruction. If you do not exorcise him immediately and with aggression when encountered, he only invades the human heart and mind to greater depth.

You can rail the most pretty of biblical versus, invoke the name of Christ a thousand times, pound a bible forever, and do a million good deeds, but it is all for nothing where the mind allows the heart to leave an open door.
What we set the mind upon to treasure is exactly where the human heart, repetitive actions, and soul follow. What evils the mind tolerates become what the heart, actions, and soul tolerate. No man can serve the world and ways of the world while serving God; for he soon grows to love one and hate the other. Men may not exist of divided speech, mind, and heart while trying to serve God because God is not a duplicitous Creator. And God favors the just and the law-abiding, not the outlaw. God does not carry those who would push for instability and violence among men. Even in war, the soldier is obligated to have peace and life as a virtue, and just trial if possible. That's the vital difference between American forces and every other army in the world. We are supposed to deliver "Truth, Justice, and the American way!" to the world. Justice of all things. Murder or even excess intimidation tactics....this is not just behavior and it will not acquire justice for babies.

I am no holy roller or Polyanna, but I know right and wrong, and madness when smelling it. All of that thinking and everything such men try to do will lead to nothing and no good. Fix it.
Please. No more questions from any of you baiting a response. I have nothing more to say more or argue over the matter. There are times when you can only pray for men and not argue with them. There are times when there is nothing further to argue and that issue is it.
I will be leaving this forum now and not returning. Not reading the posts here anymore. I leave in protest to all that kind of moral and philosophic nonsense and the evil that it is, though cloaked in pro-life.
I cannot argue against CP here because he's right in some areas. Everything else is trivial but this one moral area. It's a brick wall we hit in commonality and agenda as pro-lifers.
I came to this forum looking to contribute to the pro-life movement and exchange ideas helpful to it. I have other work to do. I have wasted too much time only to find madness here. This one issue sets it all in stone for me because all other evils fall subsidiary.
If we do not seek Grace in the pro-life movement, all you wind up leading becomes a great disgrace. There are oodles of ways to fight and defy, and there are ways that cannot ever be argued as tolerable. We are not living in Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia yet.
I will not be led by such ideals, tolerances, associates, or any kind of ambiguity in cause. There are things that are acceptable, and things which go too far. If something is led by goodness and Grace, it bears good fruit and its evils are not too terrible. Evil only begets more evil, however. And evil starts when the mind begins to treasure too much unsound things and ideas not of God.
History is filled with great, good men who do much evil while their hearts truly mean well. They all believe too much in the power of force and not ideas. Their hearts, minds, and souls become charmed by notions of force. Judas defines them best. Christ knew that forces against forces is the way of fools, but, no, not Judas. He wanted to kill. He wanted to fight. He wanted his wants and internal compulsions for power more so than loyalty to Our Lord. One cannot be a true Christian while believing too much in the power of force over ideas because it is the very philosophy of Judas.
What is of God does not speak with a forked tongue. There are no lies and half-truths to be found in the Word of God. There is no discontinuity in what is spoken, meant from the heart, and done in action or tolerated. If we would seek to be near God as sinners, we cannot uphold such divided minds, hearts, and souls. There is fun playing around and being devilish for laughs and squashing of the enemy, and then there are times when things are extremely serious matters.
I cannot argue with the insanity of this talk any more than to just sever from it all and have absolutely nothing to do with any such things of it, around it, near it. Words are cheap. Actions speak loudest. I will not walk with or lead sheep into any such madness if non-violence is not the true core philosophy and virtue behind it all. That's what is professed to me as wanted, but then there are other contradictory statements and virtues upheld.
One cannot be pro-life and pro-murder at the same time. To kill an abortionist, for any reason, is murder because it is denying them the right to a fair trial. To advocate for it or not be against such things is to allow people who do such things to become one's associates -- making you accomplice.
Again, I say we cannot be seeking to change the law while having no respect for the law. Yes, there are trivial laws men may break in pushing forward non-violent political motions, but all the more so that their cause must be sincerely non-violent.
Murder is murder in the eyes of God, and in the eyes of the law of any state, no matter who carries it out or for whatever reasons. Short of armed resistance against evil occupying powers like the Nazis and Communists, all men have a right to be tried justly in a court of law -- even the abortionist. Whether runaway slave or slave keeper in Civil War times, they both had a right to TRIAL under the law. The slaves did not acquire their freedom by killing slaveholders without sanction of the Union. All else is lynch mob justice. Had they tried that and set up leaders who pushed for violence, their cause would have gone nowhere fast. When we deviate from non-violence as a virtue, we are no better than the enemy. We become mere outlaws and silly criminals of no power to do anything serious.
There is no room for argument and debate on matters like this. That's the problem. Between outlaw, rabid sheep screaming of Christ and the murderous whore state still capable of transformation within and at the will of the People, yes, I choose the law and the will of these selfish, abortive People.
This government and laws she institutes among men were meant to serve the People and preserve their Free Will above all things. You have to make propaganda war on their Free Will peacefully in order to change their minds and hearts to change the law. Nobody likes or listens to the will of outlaws. Outlaws do not well sell the cause. History has always hunted them down and hung them while pissing on their causes.
If you would save babies and cement that in the law for decades to come, you have to make the abortionist the outlaw, not pro-lifers. You have to put down the guns and thinking about guns; for they are idols and false gods which promise power. But, it is not ever true power if the law and People are not behind it. And it is not true power because it goes against God's will.
Any jackass can pick up a gun or intimidate cowardly Liberals and abortionists. It takes considerably more to destroy everything they are and wish to do in the world, and to do that without ever firing a shot. Failure to see the importance of that philosophy to Grand Strategy leads to a failure in organizational Strategy, and ultimately makes the Tactics too ugly; Too harsh; Too misdirected at times. All things in any prosecution of war must be governed within the light of Grand Strategy, which is the domain of Faith, Philosophy, and Morals. Everything is won or lost based upon those foundations.
Take care. May God keep you all out of trouble and somehow victorious for the babies. Let not the weaknesses of our hearts, mind, and souls cripple the cause and things like I AM a Person. If you just focus on that and nothing else, all will be fine but the self tends to will many other directions as the Devil whispers in our ears. There is a Devil in this world, Yoda. There are always two halves to our minds and hearts which compose the soul. It's when we allow evil ideas to rift them that all goes down the slippery slope into madness.

reply from: yoda

Doc, if you want to leave and quit the discussion, don't ask me not to reply to your posts. Just leave. I'm not giving you the last word just because you say you're leaving.
I don't have to do anything, Doc, much less apply a military honor code to the whole prolife movement. We have no central authority, no chain of command, and no obligation to honor anyone's code but our own. I will form my opinion based on each individual case, not on anyone's code of conduct.
No doubt.

Good for you. I know the voice of reason, and my conscience, and that's enough for me.
IMO, justice for UNBORN babies is no different from justice for born babies and/or adults. Would you agree with that? And would you agree that violence to save your own or some other innocent life is not morally "murder"? Let me guess..... I'll never get an answer to that one, either.
I'm not a "true Christian".
Is defending your own life with deadly force "murder"? It IS "denying your attacker the right to a fair trial", is it not? (BTW, if you do give in to temptation and respond to this, please don't ignore my questions again, okay?)
Then why are you?
Your manner of debate seems to be to pontificate and opine, without so much as a recognition of what your "opponent" has said... much less an actual response! We've had others here who debate like that, but up until now they've all been proabort.
If you're leaving........ leave.

reply from: MC3

I have not asked Troy why he has not responded to the charges made against him in this thread nor will I. My assumption is that he has not commented for the same reasons I have taken that same approach in the past.
To begin with, from an emotional standpoint I can tell you that this sort of thing completely robs you of your will and your strength to fight the real enemy. Once this process begins, it seems to take on a life of its own that never ends. To use a saying that is well-known here in Texas: It's like eating a bad steak. The more you chew it, the bigger it gets.
Beyond that, I have also found that how one responds to such personal attacks seldom matters. My experience has been that people tend to believe whatever it is they want to believe of you. In 1986, after years of fitting my commitment to the unborn around my career, I dedicated my life to fighting this battle on a full-time basis. Since then, the personal attacks against me have been constant and vicious. For example:
1) I have been accused of being an alcoholic despite the fact that the entirety of the alcohol I have consumed in my life would fit in a Dixie cup with plenty of room to spare.
2) Several years ago, the abortion lobby floated a rumor that my first wife divorced me after I was arrested for beating her. The reality is, I married my childhood sweetheart on June 3, 1971, and we have now been married for over 36 years. Most importantly, not once have I ever lifted my hand against her or physically harmed her in any way. Nor would I ever.
3) At one point I was accused of costing pro-lifers their souls because our undercover work in the abortion industry requires them to participate in abortions. In reality, we have never once used a pro-lifer as a spy in an abortion clinic or in any setting where they would even indirectly participate in an abortion. Whether we recruited them or they approached us, every spy we have ever used inside a clinic was a pro-abort who was already in that environment.

4) Another result of our undercover operations has been that I have been accused of committing burglaries, theft and other such crimes. Again, that has never happened. Every document or other item we have ever acquired from an abortion clinic was given to us by someone who was employed by the facility, had a legal right to be in the facility, and had legal access to the item or document in question.
These are just four examples from a very long list of lies and accusations that have been made against me over the years. This sort of thing goes with the territory and we would be foolish to expect anything less from our enemies. After all, once you've crossed a line that allows you to defend the slaughter of helpless children for money and political power, nothing is off-limits.
The outrage is that these concoctions are often believed and repeated by people who claim to be pro-life and Christian. It has always amazed me that pro-lifers will eagerly acknowledge that the abortion lobby and their media stooges are a collection of pathological liars, but then turn around and believe anything bad they say about a fellow pro-lifer even when there is absolutely nothing to back it up. I have also observed that the people who are most likely to complain about what others are doing to stop abortion, are the least likely to be doing anything about it themselves. Apparently, when people have the energy to rock the boat, it is usually because they haven't spent a lot of time with an oar in their hands.
Having said that, let me make it clear that I believe each of us has a duty to police the pro-life movement and rout the charlatans and crooks from it. I have stood shoulder to shoulder with many good and dedicated people in this movement and I treasure their friendships. But I will be the first to tell you that those friendships are not worth the lives of the unborn and that if any of these people are engaged in illicit behavior they are putting those lives in jeopardy. In that case, we have a moral duty to expose them and let the chips fall where they may. However, we must always do so on the basis of facts and evidence and not on hearsay, rumor, innuendo, half-truths and petty gossip.
Most of all, we must never toss our allies under the bus because of something our enemies claim is true about them. And that remains true whether they are allies we like or don't like and whether they are doing things of which we approve or don't approve.

reply from: yoda

Both those things have been proven time and again right here on this forum.
Apparently nasty, unfounded rumors are just too good to let die. Even for "prolifers".

reply from: yoda

Ah, so either you don't consider unborn babies to be "children", or you think that killing them is not as bad as killing born babies..... because it's legal?
Which is it? Or do you have some other reason for discriminating against the unborn?
I don't condone anything without a complete set of facts and circumstances. And I don't condemn anything without that, either. Bring up a particular case if you want my position on it.
"If you want clarification on my position, ask for it. Do not presume to speak for me."
You still don't know the difference between morality and practicality, do you? Do you need to see a dictionary or have someone define the terms for you?
Post and page number, please???? Or admit to yet another LIE......

reply from: yoda

Wow..... you finally figured it out, after only six months......
Say what? Can you rephrase that in less than 1,000 words?

reply from: yoda

Wow..... CP, the acid tongued poster lashes out at his host, a man who has dedicated his life to saving babies.....
I'm sure we're all overwhelmingly impressed at your lecturing of our host here, CP..... after all, what does he know about the abortion wars?
I'm sure he's grateful for the chance to sit at your feet and learn..... as we all are, btw.

reply from: MC3

ConcernedParent:
Your response to my last post was perfect validation of exactly what I was saying in that post. First you say that you do personally dislike me despite the fact you do not personally know me. Then you say that you went "digging" for something that would justify questioning my integrity but "grudgingly admit" that you found nothing. Of course, your use of the word "grudgingly" is a confession that your goal was not to determine whether I had integrity but to dredge up some dirt to support your preconceived notion that I did not. This is precisely the sort of deplorable behavior one comes to expect from America's godless media, but it obviously exists in the pro-life movement as well. Finally, you state that, "...if I were inclined to simply 'throw someone under the bus' without reasonable justification, you would be my man..." The question is, why would you even consider throwing someone under the bus without reasonable justification?
My suspicion is, and the evidence suggests, that you are a sad and very small-minded individual.

reply from: DocQuack

Funny it is to me that, whenever I go open my big mouth to make war with the devil in men, he'll often flee and attack at something or someone unprotected around me. Right after I attacked at this sinful philosophy among pro-lifers here, my normally well-mannered herding Rottie hopped the pasture fence and ripped into one of my goats -- tearing her neck, jaws, ear, and face open. Blood all over the place. Poor thing just panting away and growing weak. And I had to put two bullets in her head rather than see her suffer like that. Taking her to a vet for stitch up work would have cost hundreds and only prolonged her suffering. She probably would have expired within a couple hours anyhow and later been unable to graze.
And so, I dug her grave this afternoon while reflecting on our fight here. And I dragged her lifeless body around to lay it to rest. She was a sweet goat. I did not want to butcher her for the meat because I don't like gutting the animals I get closer to as pets. And it saddened me that two goat babies inside her were probably aborted there, by my hand, today rather than seeing them in the Spring.
And I covered up the pint or two of blood which had gushed from her throat after puncturing her brains like that. And I scolded and grounded my doggy -- vowing we need to work on his discipline again. And, when beating him off my goat, I saw the wolf and devil in my doggy -- just riled up, bloody-fanged, panting away, glassy-eyed, and happy as could be to be a wolf again. Just all animal once more. I just got through wiping him down of all the blood on him and we made friends again. Knows he's been bad. He even knows killing is wrong and is depressed tonight over his first kill, but the carnal devil in him just lusts for and loves it too much. Can't blame him really. We've had new goats. They weren't introduced. They taunt him through the fence. He's an animal, not human. With the introduction of a second dog here, he's lost discipline. And the one he killed used to buck at him through the fence.
But, the whole thing reminded me again about our bickering here and this issue of killing. Those who tend to glorify killing usually don't have any experience in it. They often think life just dies like in the movies. But, it doesn't. Killing is a sustained act of aggression. Whether the hunter, my dog, or a farmer finishing up his dog's kill...it's ugly. It hurts. It wounds the soul even when you do it to animals. It hurts me a little every time I take even an animal's life, and always has even when I used to enjoy hunting. And you get cold to it over time so that it's no big deal, but it hurts all the same to do it to any living creature. It pains you inside to do it, but you do. All you can do is ease their suffering and pet them some as they expire. And they never just suddenly expire if you've ever killed anything up close. No, they flutter around some and then pass, but at least are more stunned and fading faster.
One thing I have learned in tending to the sickly, saving lives, and also taking them at times is that life is very tenacious and also fragile; Entirely a miracle that it even exists in the body. It is the greatest of sins to destroy it with malice and without morality. At it amazes me that men who claim to be pro-life and all for the babies cannot see that even the life within an abortionist is precious to God, too. Killing is not something to ever be engaged in lightly, encouraged, or tolerated where immoral. Even where moral, it is all a great waste. How ugly it is that men just never see that in history. And I know from where it comes. It is not even in the men.
My argument is not with you, Yoda. It is with that darker, carnal half within you. That darker, carnal half within FaithMan, too. Debate is an endless round robbin of twisted thoughts and insults. There is the world we live in and the people we encounter in life, and then there are the unseen forces chipping away at us all.
The fact that I had to do some killing today after "pontificating: to men on here against the philosophy of killing (along with your private email) is why I came back. Oddly coincidental that was. Usually, when things are just too coincidental, I know God is trying to teach or tell me something. Why would He allow the devil to go for my innocent goat? Oh, goats are of no serious care to God and I have been neglecting God lately. Just a little reminder to come home and lesson again in the sanctity of all life.
Take it for what you will. Maybe, before admiring killers too much, go out and slay some goat or something up close and cradle that life in your hands for awhile as its blood gushes out. If you do that enough, you'll find it hurts YOU. It hurts you by making you colder to it even when morally killing. It hurts you if you have any kind of warm-heart. It's just part of life on a ranch, but I prefer petting them, hand feeding them, and nursing their babies each season. It's nice. The niceties, peace, and tending to life offsets the ugly days.
Wherever men enjoy killing, rapidly move to it, encourage it, admire it as a virtue, condone it, or just not condemning it.... this is of the highest evil and greatest assault upon God. And where they engage in it -- with men of all things -- it so wounds their souls and sanity, an is something that follows you all your life. Where we just wound people in life with even words, that sticks with us, too. It sticks with us because Man is created in God's image and what we do to ANY man, we do also to God. I have never known anyone who as ever taken human life and to not be so scarred by it. It's all the more horrible when you do it up close. When they gurgle, and gasp, and gush, and fight to live while you coldly take life. It is the worst of crimes. I have known bold and heroic men who have butchered, beheaded, and gutted this nation's enemies by the hundreds in a day and all in anger among their sufferings in war. And did it torment them? Oh yes. To the deathbed they suffered claiming the spirits of all those men were trying to take his soul. Other heroic butchers of war have I known and, for them, it is all the same: Killing even an animal they don't seek to do. The more you kill, the more you detest killing and appreciate how sacred all life truly is.
To even talk loosely of killing or not discouraging it is so mad and sinful I am shocked. I heard this kind of talk on the forum, but did not realize how serious it is. I perceived it as idle talk, but did not realize how entrenched that is as philosophy and not mere talk.
In any case, I wanted to make that last post. Last word? No, you will all surely post plenty more when I am gone. But, it felt wrong of me to leave here like that without offering at least a closing prayer.
This, Yoda, is for that dark voice deep inside you; That bloodthirsty, carnal wolf within that I cannot tame by any intellectual debate. It is for that dark voice always chipping away at FaithMan among his angers, too. For that dark voice maybe even more demoniacal in your Concerned Parent nemesis here. It is for Mr. Crutcher and his organization -- for that dark half deep within their souls and also against their enemies. It's for the forum folks and forum in general. It's a prayer to make all the bortheads here shreik and maybe change heart -- at least one of them. A prayer for your Mr. Newman and that rowdy OR, too. For Pro-Life and against the dragon gobbling up our babies.
---------------------------------------------------------
In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
Most glorious Prince of the Heavenly Armies, Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in "our battle against principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places" (Eph., 6,12). Come to the assistance of men whom God has created to His likeness and whom He has redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. Holy Church venerates thee as her guardian and protector; to thee, the Lord has entrusted the souls of the redeemed to be led into heaven. Pray therefore the God of Peace to crush Satan beneath our feet, that he may no longer retain men captive and do injury to the Church. Offer our prayers to the Most High, that without delay they may draw His mercy down upon us; take hold of "the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan", bind him and cast him into the bottomless pit ... "that he may no longer seduce the nations" (Apoc. 20, 2-3).
---
In the Name of Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, strengthened by the intercession of the Immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of Blessed Michael the Archangel, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul and all the Saints we confidently undertake to repulse the attacks and deceits of the devil.
Psalm 67
God arises; His enemies are scattered and those who hate Him flee before Him. As smoke is driven away, so are they driven; as wax melts before the fire, so the wicked perish at the presence of God.
Behold the Cross of the Lord, flee bands of enemies.
The Lion of the tribe of Juda, the offspring of David, hath conquered.
May Thy mercy, Lord, descend upon us.
As great as our hope in Thee.
We drive you from us, whoever you may be, unclean spirits, all satanic powers, all infernal invaders, all wicked legions, assemblies and sects. In the Name and by the power of Our Lord Jesus Christ, may you be snatched away and driven from the Church of God and from the souls made to the image and likeness of God and redeemed by the Precious Blood of the Divine Lamb.
Most cunning serpent, you shall no more dare to deceive the human race, persecute the Church, torment God's elect and sift them as wheat. The Most High God commands you, He with whom, in your great insolence, you still claim to be equal. "God who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2,4).
God the Father commands you. God the Son commands you. God the Holy Ghost commands you. Christ, God's Word made flesh, commands you; He who to save our race outdone through your envy, "humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death" (Phil.2,8); He who has built His Church on the firm rock and declared that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Her, because He will dwell with Her "all days even to the end of the world" (Matt. 28,20). The sacred Sign of the Cross commands you, as does also the power of the mysteries of the Christian Faith. The glorious Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, commands you; she who by her humility and from the first moment of her Immaculate Conception crushed your proud head. The faith of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and of the other Apostles commands you. The blood of the Martyrs and the pious intercession of all the Saints command you.
Thus, cursed dragon, and you, diabolical legions, we adjure you by the living God, by the true God, by the holy God, by the God "who so loved the world that He gave up His only Son, that every soul believing in Him might not perish but have life everlasting" (St.John 3, 16); stop deceiving human creatures and pouring out to them the poison of eternal damnation; stop harming the Church and hindering her liberty. Begone, Satan, inventor and master of all deceit, enemy of man's salvation. Give place to Christ in Whom you have found none of your works; give place to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church acquired by Christ at the price of His Blood. Stoop beneath the all-powerful Hand of God; tremble and flee when we invoke the Holy and terrible Name of Jesus, this Name which causes hell to tremble, this Name to which the Virtues, Powers and Dominations of heaven are humbly submissive, this Name which the Cherubim and Seraphim praise unceasingly repeating: Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord, the God of Hosts.
O Lord, hear my prayer.....And let my cry come unto Thee.
May the Lord be with thee.....And with thy spirit.
God of heaven, God of earth, God of Angels, God of Archangels, God of Patriarchs, God of Prophets, God of Apostles, God of Martyrs, God of Confessors, God of Virgins, God who has power to give life after death and rest after work: because there is no other God than Thee and there can be no other, for Thou art the Creator of all things, visible and invisible, of Whose reign there shall be no end, we humbly prostrate ourselves before Thy glorious Majesty and we beseech Thee to deliver us by Thy power from all the tyranny of the infernal spirits, from their snares, their lies and their furious wickedness. Deign, O Lord, to grant us Thy powerful protection and to keep us safe and sound. We beseech Thee through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen.
From the snares of the devil,... Deliver us, O Lord.
That Thy Church may serve Thee in peace and liberty: We beseech Thee to hear us.
That Thou may crush down all enemies of Thy Church: We beseech Thee to hear us.

reply from: yoda

Funny it is to me that you never say something in just a few words when 10,000 will do.
Taken in context, you are accusing me of "glorifying" killing. That, sir, is blatantly dishonest. But then I understand that you are frustrated at not being able to form a thought to express your disagreement with me that makes any sense. Thus, dishonesty is your only refuge.
Both halves of me are disgusted with your dishonesty, Doc. You will not deal honestly with this issue, but seem to prefer personal invective over rational discussion. Again, that's the sign of a frustrated debater.
Is there no end to your dishonesty? You haven't read a single post of mine that praises anyone who has killed an abortionist, and yet you accuse me of "admiring killers too much". Frustration is a terrible thing, isn't it Doc?
Wow, that's quite a mouthful, Doc. Lumping them all together is an honest comment? How about "not offering a reward for the capture of anyone who kills an abortionist"? Is that in the same category too? Come on, Doc, you haven't offered a reward, have you? Does that put you in the same category oas someone who "enjoys killing"?
Your dishonesty makes me wonder about your motivation here. And the fact that you chose to stir up a controversy that had been quiet for a while points to a motivational direction that is quite simply shameful. Was that your main intention from the start, Doc? Was all that verbiage just a smoke screen? Did you hope to lull us to sleep with posts that were too long for most people to read in an hour?

reply from: nykaren

Yoda, you haven't a clue when to just shut up, do you? I can't imagine I'm the only person sick of listening to you talk your way around answering whether you believe killing doctors or bombing clinics in order to save babies is appropriate prolife action. Either you do or you don't. Which is it?? Clear this up, with a straight answer, for those of us who don't know for sure, okay?

reply from: yoda

Yes, I do, karen.... it's when proaborts like you stop selling babykilling. When all of you stop that, you won't hear from me any more.
When did they make this forum mandatory, karen? Who is forcing you to remain here, or to read my posts? Haven't you figured out how to use the iggy button yet? Ask coco, she hunted for it two or three days before she found it.
"Appropriate prolife action"? That's the first time anyone's asked me that question, karen. Many people just decide that I'm a wild-eyed bomber and tell me how wrong I am.... very few actually ask me anything!! You may be the first!!
IF you mean "appropriate" as in "effective and a good long term strategy", I would say no. The response to clinic violence has been more and more repressive government actions, in effect putting yet another muzzle on all of the prolife movement.
IF you mean "appropriate" as in "morally justifiable or morally neutral", I'd say yes, it may be possible to establish a moral justification in some cases. Not all of them, probably, and not every detail of any of them, but in general principle it is impossible to show how defending born kids with violence is okay, but defending unborn ones is not. And I absolutely DO think it's justifiable to defend the lives of born kids with force and/or violence. Do you?
And would you care to take the challenge to explain why one is justifiable and one is not? No, I thought not.... you'd probably prefer just to call me names and stuff, right?
But not being close to any of those cases, I don't have enough information to "analyze" any specific one of them thoroughly and say which ones are justifiable and which ones are not...... so I'll just say I don't have enough information to condemn or condone any of them specifically.
Seems strange to me that you start off your post as if you want me to stop posting, and then you ask me a very complicated question, as if you want me to fill up a whole page..... which is it, karen?
Btw, have a nice day!

reply from: carolemarie

If you don't know what is really true, then don't take sides. If you are just dying to know what is going on, then email Troy and email Flip and then you will have both sides. The best idea is to ignore the fighting and work with both. The infighting will not make a difference to the outcome of the court case, since neither OR or OSA or any of the others are on the jury. Isn't it great that God is the one who is in control and the only one who deserves any praise in the matter?
It would be nice if prolife groups didn't fight in public and in print. Sadly they do. To be cynical would be to say there is a financial interest in who gets the credit and who gets the press attention.
In Wichita, there are several prolife groups fighting Tiller. Operation Save America with Pastor Mark Holick, Operation Rescue with Troy Newman, Heartbeat Ministries with Donna Lippold, Kansans for Life with Mark Gietrick and KRL with a man they call the father of the prolife movement. There is also Operation Outcry in Topeka and Silent No More in Wichita as well as Rock for Life Kansas.
I hope this helps!
Carole

reply from: faithman

If you don't know what is really true, then don't take sides. If you are just dying to know what is going on, then email Troy and email Flip and then you will have both sides. The best idea is to ignore the fighting and work with both. The infighting will not make a difference to the outcome of the court case, since neither OR or OSA or any of the others are on the jury. Isn't it great that God is the one who is in control and the only one who deserves any praise in the matter?
It would be nice if prolife groups didn't fight in public and in print. Sadly they do. To be cynical would be to say there is a financial interest in who gets the credit and who gets the press attention.
In Wichita, there are several prolife groups fighting Tiller. Operation Save America with Pastor Mark Holick, Operation Rescue with Troy Newman, Heartbeat Ministries with Donna Lippold, Kansans for Life with Mark Gietrick and KRL with a man they call the father of the prolife movement. There is also Operation Outcry in Topeka and Silent No More in Wichita as well as Rock for Life Kansas.
I hope this helps!
Carole
No it does not help. The only group that is being attacked by the lies of benham and holic is the real operation rescue. This could very easily be resolved if holic and benham produced the paper work to a nutral party that they own the name. I have posted site addresses that are the words of OSA themselves that say they changed the name. I have heard with my own ears form these guys that they had to drop the name because they encured huge law suits against it, and did not have the resourses to fight it. The cowards [ randall terry, flip benham] point blank abandoned Joe Shidler [ck sp] , and left him to fight for over a decade, and when shidler won, they almost ran him over to take credit for his victory. The only thing that will help this issue, is for benham and terry to bring their paper work to life dynamics, and I am sure that mark crutcher would post it publicly on life talk. But Terry would rather wave a bible in everyones face, insted of reading its moritorium on adultry, and taking a brother to a secular court. And benham hasn't the charactor to admit his enept "leadership" and cowardice forced him to drop the name of Operation Rescue to avoid a fight he had niether the guts, or resources to win. Troy Newman has had the name for at least 14 years, and thru hard work and persirverance, has brought the name national attention and respect. Pro-lifer's should demand that all parties involved put up or shut up. Either produce your paper work, or be black balled. But the self serving could care less about truth. They would rather engage in the tactic of slander because they envy those who are what they wished they were. A true leader who serves the pro-life movement with integrity, and effectiveness.

reply from: yoda

THAT is the best advice on this situation I've seen in a long time!

reply from: faithman

THAT is the best advice on this situation I've seen in a long time!
Ya go work with benham and find out how long it takes for him to stab you in the back. The scripture says to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but to reprove them. Benham is the one who has made these slanderous aligations, and he should be brought to task for it, and prove them or be reproved for them. To "work" with this slime bag, is to give him credibility he does not deserve.

reply from: yoda

I have no respect for anyone who would volunteer to "flip the switch" at an execution, like he did.
But like carole said, anyone who doesn't know the details of that feud should stay out of it.

reply from: nykaren

Yes, I do, karen.... it's when proaborts like you stop selling babykilling. When all of you stop that, you won't hear from me any more.
I do not do that here or elsewhere. I do not believe in frivolous abortions which is what the doctors who do that for a living perform daily.
I'm quite well aware of the ignore function and how to use it, thank you. You are right, I choose to read your posts. I remain here and read all the posts for reasons you probably would not understand.
Kinda like people have just decided who I am and call me names and tell me how wrong I am?

No, and I'd much prefer you not call me names, either. No, as for answering why one is justifiable and one's not, that's a lot like asking the anti-war activist if it's justifiable to kill a soldier who's going to war and will be killing on a regular basis there. If you don't want him killing his enemy, you kill him first because you believe the war is wrong?
The difference is that if you kill the madman about to kill a classroom of children, that killing is legal and urgently necessary to save lives that very moment. You have other options to stop abortions, such as the ones you already use - talking to mothers, providing them options. And working to overturn abortion laws. Even illegal options to block clinic doors or whatever, rather than the extreme illegal option of killing the doctor. As in the example above of killing the soldier, there's a point where violence based on moral beliefs become domestic terrorism.
Stop posting? No. Just stop saying the same things over and over again without answering the questions or addressing the issue. Or attacking the one asking the question. Your simple answer was plenty and told me what I wanted to know. Thank you for keeping it short and simple.
You, too, Yoda!

reply from: faithman

It is not about a fued, it is about this "man's" public aligations. He has publicly called Troy Newman a thief, and a liar, and an imposter. He is also on record in the late 90's of pubicly stating that he dropped the OR name because of law suits. Now this jackle wants the name back because some one has put a little meat back on the bones. OSA has a very long history of taking credit for others work, and what they can not take credit for, they stomp into the ground with slander, and out and out lies. No one of any conscience at all, should have anything to do with them. And every pro-lifer should be warned about the toxic brew in the OSA punch bowl. You can stick your head in the sand if you wish, and cowardly bullies depend on you to do exacly that. We don't need to ignore this. It needs to be resolved. Not in a secular borthead court, but in house. Let all parties submit themselves to a nutral counsel made up of respected prolifers. Let them prove the aligations, or repent and apologize for them. And if the punks refuse to submit to the right thing to do, then let it be known thru all pro-life that they are not to be considered a proper group to do business with. That stops it, not sticking your head in the sand. Nor is it good advise to "work" with a group that has the history OSA has.

reply from: yoda

Then stop your whining...... it's very annoying!
Kinda like people have just decided who I am and call me names and tell me how wrong I am?
So you're agreeing with me?
In other words, you're NOT going to answer MY questions????
Why am I not surprised?
That's right.... accuse me of something without saying where I did it... you're real, real good at that..... care to cite and example? NO, I didn't think so!!
You're welcome!
I just wish I could be thanking you for answering my questions..... but that's just how it is, isn't it?

reply from: yoda

I gotta agree with Mark Crutcher on that one, FM. I think such gossip is like the tar baby, the more you hit it, the more it sticks to you. And I gotta respect Troy's decision not to rebut the allegations publicly. He's the target, and if he chooses to try to ignore them, I'll honor his decision.

reply from: nykaren

Kinda like people have just decided who I am and call me names and tell me how wrong I am?
I agree with you that people should ask questions and listen to the answers, rather than make assumptions which are likely to be wrong.
What didn't I answer in my post? I answered your question about the difference between killing to protect a classroom of children and killing a doctor to stop abortion. If you mean do I think each group of children is equally worth protecting, yes, I do. In the first case, if violence is the only option, yes, it should be used. In the second, you have non-violent options available to protect those children.

reply from: nykaren

Your attacks on Coco earlier in another thread would be an example of that. Instead of addressing the issue or explaining your comment in the post she referred back to, you simply tore her apart.

reply from: yoda

You're kidding, right? I mean, you're not serious, are you?
She half-coherently accused me of saying something I've never come close to saying, and I answered her "NO".
And that's your best example...?????
Wow....... talk about shooting off your mouth when you have NO AMMUNITION..........!!

reply from: nykaren

We must not be talking about the same post. When I get a chance I will find the one I'm referring to. That probably won't be today.

reply from: tman

Dear Fellow Pro-lifers
This will serve as my first and last post on this issue. Thank you all for caring so much about me as to spend your valuable time talking about me; that alone is a high complement.
To quote Mark Crutcher, "... from an emotional standpoint I can tell you that this sort of thing completely robs you of your will and your strength to fight the real enemy. Once this process begins, it seems to take on a life of its own that never ends."
Anyone who has been under personal attacks while attempting to accomplish real life goals will know just how true a statement Mark has made. Think of it in terms of Nehemiah having to build a wall around Jerusalem with one hand and having to handle a sword in the other so as to protect himself from the likes of Sanballet. Walls don't get built that way, at least not efficiently!
Therefore, I am not going to spend my space and your time here defending or accusing but I will allow my own track record to speak.
I joined this battle for life in 1991. Since then I have been jailed, fined sued numerous times, convicted of FACE, I have been beat up by homosexuals and lesbians, had dead animal thrown in my yard, been the subject of death threats, sued by Planned Parenthood, Janet Reno and the DOJ, investigated by the IRS, falsely accused by fellow Christians resulting in more "Matthew 18's" than I care to mention. I have been in war zones, threatened at gun point, knife point, and "fist point." I have been threatened by Attorney's General, District Attorneys, Captains of Police Departments, and normal beat cops have cuffed my hands so tight as to cut off circulation to my hands. I have been fined and had judgments. Now even Randall Terry is suing me. The Supreme Court has made laws against me (Regulation 6) and I have been banned from coming within 20 feet of every "woman's health center" within the District of Columbia. Our Truth Trucks have been impounded, ticketed, vandalized and wrecked. There are websites dedicated to attacking my character and integrity. Some call my cell phone in the middle of the night to spew their drunken filth on my answering machine.
Through this all I am a member in good standing as an Elder in the Presbyterian Church in America. I have attended the same church for the past 6 years. I have had one wife and five beautiful children who call me Daddy and I tuck them in bed every night. My life is an open book, my tax returns and financial statements are analyzed by a concerned Board of Directors, attorneys and accountants.
Through it all, I am living a life that many could only dream of living. I thank God every day and night for the ability to serve Him. I thank every person who has partnered with us to end abortion in America.
Most people don't see the long hours that pro-lifers invest in saving babies and I won't bore you all with how I spend my day, where I travel, or how many times I have spent the night on couches. But I will ask that you look at the fruit of our ministry. It is irrefutable that literally dozens and dozens of abortion mills have been closed due to the persistence of our staff at Operation Rescue, I thank God for this! We now have 10 Truth Trucks in the USA; they have driven over 500,000 miles. Millions and millions of people have seen these graphic images. There are babies who are alive today as a direct result of our work. We own an old abortion mill; one that we closed! We are involved in projects in numerous states, collaborative efforts with fellow like-minded pro-lifers who have a vision for victory.
I moved from San Diego to Wichita, Kansas for one reason; to shut down the largest late-term abortion mill in the world. Prior to coming to Wichita Tiller enjoyed unbridled freedom and had an expanding business. Since our campaign began he has a declining business, has lost 15 employees, many suppliers, he is under intense scrutiny from the KBOHA, faces 19 criminal charges, one more Grand Jury, and other investigation. You can investigate the results of our campaign for yourself. Other may claim credit or call it coincidence but the honest folk know that results come from long hours of work.
Part of my work is to raise money to pay for all these projects. I am not ashamed to ask you to support our efforts. The money is all accounted for, my team of attorney's my board and my accountant will assure you that we comply with a high degree of integrity.
So that's my story. Some will scoff, others will pick at details and post part or all of this on a website attacking me. Frankly, I don't care. I am here to win this battle for life; yes WIN! And come hell or high water that is exactly what I am going to do.
I would rather be living in San Diego, enjoying my "old" life as a Computer Engineer. I never had people viciously attack me for repairing computers or selling components. But this is the place God planted me, and I am committed to being the very best pro-lifer I can be! I will save as many babies, close as many mills, witness to as many people, confront as many abortionists as God will allow me time on this earth. Period! Don't like it? Tuff, that's who I am.
I will note that none (not one!) of the people attacking me have the integrity to stand to my face, or before my board, or submit their claims before an independent Christian mediator or even before my Church elders and make these accusations to have them settled. Some people love the controversy more than resolution. I don't think that is Biblical. None of them have the character to do that. And I think that alone discredits their words.
So again, thanks for reading, thanks for talking about me, and a special thanks to all those who have stood by our work to save babies from death.
God bless you all in Christ's name.
Troy Newman, President
Operation Rescue

reply from: yoda

How about these two?
1. "And I absolutely DO think it's justifiable to defend the lives of born kids with force and/or violence. Do you?"
2. And would you care to take the challenge to explain why one (defending born kids) is justifiable and one (defending unborn kids) is not?
But karen....... I DIDN'T ASK THAT QUESTION!!! Don't you even read the posts before you attack them??????
To protect unborn kids? Have you not noticed? "Non-violent options" are NOT STOPING ABORTION..... 4,000 babies a day are still dying, are they not???
Would you be willing to wait 35 years before you tried to stop someone from killing 4,000 BORN KIDS A DAY????

reply from: yoda

Thanks for dropping in, Troy. As far as I'm concerned, you need no defense.
And your reputation is all the more enhanced by the "quality" of your attackers.

reply from: 4given

Honestly- I, personally, as neither do my family and friends, care at all about the scandals amongst any individual- much less the individual in question! Bottom line is that OR has been on the front line, fighting for the unborn, exposing the truth about the many atrocities going on in this blood-thirsty, money hungry business! Abortion is a business! A blood-stained dollar for every child mutilated.. almost makes me want to accept the change with a glove on! It is sick- Abortion is sick. Operation Rescue has brought attention to the many evils of the industry through time, energy and TRUTH being broadcasted to the many generations, who as one may not realize, are void of the abortion truth! (Hoorah for Truth trucks.. etc!) Anyway, whatever- they can settle it. It doesn't sway or change or establish an opinion one bit. I am thankful for any organization that dedicates themselves to the unborn! I am also saddened when a community (PRO-LIFE) attacks its allies... It to me is likened to a plagued, diseased or injured body...

reply from: faithman

This is why I am working to bring the slanderers to task. All this would end, if like Troy has stated, his accusers would simply open the big bibles they are always waving for the tv cameras, and take the complaints thru the right channels. It is wrong for a "pastor" to slander a man in public, he has not talked to in private. Benham is accountable to no one, while troy is submitted to his church eldership, a board of directors, and a spiritual advisery board as well. He has refused to attack his accusers, and has continuosly prayed for their success in halting the slaughter of womb children, both in a public, and private, prayer life. Every pro-lifer should e-mail Holic and Benham of OSA, and demand that they bring their accusations to a nutral pro-life mediator, and prove them, or repent of them. That is the only biblically right thing to do. It is way to late to do this in private, as the slanderers have done this in a public way. Now it needs to end in the same way. They need to publicly prove, or be reproved, and just ignoring it is what bullies like OSA depend on when they do things like this. Every pro-lifer should rebuke Randal Terry as well for violating the biblical mandate not to take a brother to a secular court. Terry is a fraud. He threw away his "ministry" when he commited adultry, and insted of repenting, went into spin mode, and tried to justify his actions. I guess he figured enough time had passed for us to forget that. Now he brings a frivolus law suit against one of the most effective pro-lifers in the field. Troy should not have to pull off the line , and spend precious time, fighting those who should be encouraging his efforts, not tearing them down, and cutting at his flanks, and casting doubt with slander. We should hold these "leaders" to a standard they would burden their followers with. Like I say, put up or shut up.

reply from: sistersister

I have read this forum for quite a while with no desire to post or reply to the disscussions. However I will now.
I am from Wichita, at least I work in Wichita and live in the state of kansas.
One, his claim of all those employees that have left.
Employees have left as they do in all job sites. The clinic employees have left to return to school and to move on to other jobs. They have left to care for family and then returned to work once those commitments were done. Most of the clinic employees have been there at least three or four years with many over ten and quite a few over twenty. The attriction rate is quite low for a medical facility. As far as I know of no one who has left due to any thing done by or for operation rescue west. If anything orw's tactics have given the employees a feeling of being comrades in arms. Another fact is that since orw has been around support for the Clinic has strengthed. Many pro-choicers who had become complacent have reactivated and many who were neutral and even some who oppose abortion have found orw's tactics so repugnant that they have called or mailed in their support for the staff in the face of orws tactics.
The fact is that since troys efforts the staff has increased and in fact the Clinic has doubled the number of Doctors.
As for troy and the clinic they seldom see troys face unless it is on the rare occasion a camera crew is outside the clinic and then only long enough to get his coverage and then he is out of there.
Then there is the thing about the central clinic. The business entity of the central street abortion clinic was bought out by another abortion provider not troy. That is what closed that clinic as the business was moved to the other clinic. Troy did not shut the clinic down another abortion provider did. The building that had housed the central clinic then went on sale. Jeff whites daughter is the one (I believe) that put up the finacing that bought the empty building after the abortion business had been bougt by the other abortion provider.
From what I had read I thought troy moved out of San Diego becuase he was on the losing end of a law suit (something about filing frivolus law suits I think) filed by Planned Parenthood. In fact there is a article on the web that is easy to look up. It would apear from what I have read that troy was not all that effective in San Diego and simply moved on to greener pastures where there was more oportunity (to use his own words) to bring in the jack.
Not that I expect any of you on this board to actually read this. And about the only response one might expect is faithmans usual name calling (wow, how boring). From my twenty plus years at the clinics dealing with antichoicers I do not expect any of them to actually care more about truth then their PR. It does not take a lot of time to do a search on the internet to verify facts, but I doubt that any of you will do so.
In the meantime I like many who work at the clinics simply watch the misrepresentation and out right lies of so many who make their living off of being anti choice. If they actualy believe in some higher force as the justification for their cause why do they have to manipulate the truth and even lie? My conclusion is that they really have no faith in their "god" or that they simply do not think him capable of performing the task they have requested of him.

reply from: AquaGirl

I am new to blogs so forgive me if I miss some of the "etiquette" rules of blogging. However, I couldn't help but join in the discussion regarding Newman, Benham and Terry. I know all three men and I can tell you, with no hesitation, in the last few years at least, there is no doubt that Troy worked, and continues to work, a 1000 times harder and longer to save the babies and their moms. Flip and Randall only pop their heads up occasionally; not because they don't like the press, but because they are not doing much in the pro-life movement. In fact, they both love media attention!!
For those of you concerned with donating to the cause, I would never hesitate to donate to Troy. I would never donate to Flip or Randall.
One more thing, the information on Wikipedia is so wrong it stinks!

reply from: AquaGirl

What a hypocrite you are! You make your living off "working at the clinics" so how is that different than a pro-lifer making a living off trying to save the babies? NONE.
What I notice you do is say, "from what I hear" and "I believe". Troy sure didn't move to Wichita for the "jack". How outrageous that one is. You need to be getting your facts straight.

reply from: sistersister

Not hypocritical at all. I work at a abortion clinic becuase I support a womans right to reproductive choice, I support choice. I would be a hypocrite if I was protesting outside of ob gyn clinics against women making the choice to carry a pregnancy to term.
troy is like a pimp. he does not provide the service he simply makes his living off of the fact the service is provided. He claims to abbhor abortion but has become dependent on it and the clinics as a source of income. (In the bible Jesus and the deciples continued to work at their trades as they preached unlike troy who depends on handouts.)
As to troy and the jack, golly gee, here I sit with this tape of him asking several of us where the jack is. We were voluntering at the clinic on central and he is having this lovely discussion about how he is not getting in as much as he had thought he would. You have to love those mini recorders don't you.
As to incorect info. Do you have a source that can be looked up and verified or is it once again just a case of not liking what you read so you claim its false. (not letting the truth get in the way of your propaganda) What exactly is incorect on wikipedia? What is your source to disprove it? Where are you facts?
As to the other men you mentioned, they and troy are six of one a half dozen of the other. You do seem to bring the disscussion to the real point of their agenda, money and which of them has claim to what share of the donation pie.

reply from: yoda

Of course we'll read this! How often is it that we get to hear from the baby killers themselves?
We're really "honored" to have caught the attention of an actual baby killer working for Tiller the Killer himself. Are you one of those who holds the women down on the table, or do you dispose of the baby parts? Or are you just one of the maggot punks?
Whatever, we're just happy to know that our little board has come to your attention, in between killing babies and lying to your customers, of course!

reply from: yoda

Quite a bit, actually..... Troy makes his living saving baby's lives, the other poster makes their living killing babies.
BIG difference!

reply from: faithman

Of course we'll read this! How often is it that we get to hear from the baby killers themselves?
We're really "honored" to have caught the attention of an actual baby killer working for Tiller the Killer himself. Are you one of those who holds the women down on the table, or do you dispose of the baby parts? Or are you just one of the maggot punks?
Whatever, we're just happy to know that our little board has come to your attention, in between killing babies and lying to your customers, of course!
May be she is the furnace operator that throws the babies in the fire that rains baby ash on the surounding nieborhood?

reply from: yoda

Is it a "choice clinic", or an "abortion clinic"? Or does the word "abortion" just stick in your craw, so you can't bring yourself to say it?
And you are like what........ a whore?
NOTHING in wikipedia is "proof" of anything. It's a "reader edited" encyclopedia..... anyone can put anything in it. So to quote from it is just blowing hot air..... and proves nothing.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, maybe that's it. Or maybe she shovels the baby ashes out of the furnace and throws them in the dumpster.

reply from: sistersister

The poster made a statement that things on troy were incorrect in wikipedia. I asked her what those were and to show a checkable source with that showed they were wrong. I did not say wikipedia was either right or wrong I simply asked her to back up her statement that specific things on wikapedia were incorrect about troy newman.
I work at a Abortion Clinic. No it does not "stick in my craw". As I said I support women having the right and access to reproductive choice. I work at the clinic to help ensure that right. That, I think, may stick in your "craw" but that would be your problem, not mine.
No I am not a whore are you? And no I am not one of the Maggot Punks ( though I will say I admire them and appreciate all the work they do)
Do I use the furnace???? I would suppose you are refering to the crematoria. No that is not part of my job.
I see that you like the female poster, have no facts to refute my first post. You certianly do not appear to want to address specifics but as I said I hardly expect actual debate. Just the usual bluster with no facts.

reply from: AshMarie88

So do I!! But thank goodness abortion has nothing to do with reproduction, eh?

reply from: faithman

Reproduction to dfeath scanks means assembly line killing of womb children. Planned Parenthood reproduces dead babies by the thousands everyday.

reply from: faithman

Of course we'll read this! How often is it that we get to hear from the baby killers themselves?
We're really "honored" to have caught the attention of an actual baby killer working for Tiller the Killer himself. Are you one of those who holds the women down on the table, or do you dispose of the baby parts? Or are you just one of the maggot punks?
Whatever, we're just happy to know that our little board has come to your attention, in between killing babies and lying to your customers, of course!
Well the maggot punk death scank had a little time with tiller being closed for 40 days and all, and they wouldn't of had to call in extra killers if the main killer werent to buzy poseing for mug shots, and interviewing lawyers to answere all the criminal charges. Yah things are just peachy at tillers right scank?

reply from: yoda

It's your obligation to back up your allegations, not anyone else's to prove them wrong. And wikipedia is not "proof" of anything, it's no more reliable than a gossip rag.... which is in fact what it amount to. So if you want to spread gossip, have some kind of proof first.
But you don't support "choice", you support abortion!! Or do you think those two words mean the same thing?
You're the one who accused someone of being "like a pimp". Don't like it when it gets thrown back at you?
"Work"? You call their nasty personal smears "work"????? Yes, I guess YOU would.....
Do you smell the odor of burnt human flesh on the days when they are using it? Do you like that odor? Do you enjoy that part of your "job"?

reply from: sistersister

I suppose you are refering to the time taken to repair the vandalism. We were not closed for forty days. I and the rest worked the whole time. We saw follow ups. Our patients were refered to other clinics. Women who wanted services recieved them, the clinic was repaired and improved, and the prolife movement was once again proved to be no more than petty vandals and thugs.
To a woman with a seriouly dangerous pregnancy that if carried to term would impare her reproductive ability, abortion has everything to do with reproduction. But then only a fool would say that reproductive rights and the right of a woman to control her own destiny in regards to reproduction has nothing to do with reproduction.
Ah faithman as always when you have no facts you resort to your name calling. Same old same old, requires more pity than a responce. What is a "scank" I think you ment *****, a unattractive looking woman or one that is sexually promiscuous or dancing to Reaggae music in a very jerky way. I'm not that bad looking if I choose to bother (did some modeling in younger days) I'm much more asexual than anything, certianly not promiscuous. And due to my Pentacostal upbringing I never learned to dance either Reggae (but I do love Peter Toshs' music) or any other dancing. If you are going to call names perhaps you should at least check the spelling and look up the definitions . Other wise you simply end up looking more pathetic than hurtful (which is what I think you are attempting to go for).
Actually things are "pretty peachy" at work. Morale is good. I like my boss and co-workers. I enjoy the patients and their families and I'm supporting womens reproductive rights and access to their legal right to an abortion. I would say that my co workers would say the same thing.
If you bother to go to the clinics web page you would see that the increase in staff was several years ago, has nothing to do with the misdemeanor charges. It had everything to do with better care and access for the patients.
I do support choice. I support women who choose to carry a pregnancy to term and I support women who choose to abort. That is choice. Anti choice is when one only supports carrying a pregnancy to term regardless of the womens wishes or her circumstances. I also support subsidised daycare work working mothers, increased health care for born children and the working poor, raising the minimum wage, subsidised housing for the working poor and equity in the work place, all of which I have and do work for and all of which would enable many women to be able to keep their pregnancy and carry to term.
A pimp is someone who attaches themselves on to someone who provides a service so they can live off of that persons efforts. troy makes his living off of abortion. Much like a pimp while he proclaims his abhorance of that service and the providors he still lives off of and benefits himself from that service.
I answered the question about wether I was a whore, why did you not return the favor and answer mine about if you were a whore? It would seem to fall under common courtesy to do so.
Once again very slowly, I did not say wikapedia is either right or wrong. The other poster claimed that the info on troy was incorrect. I have asked her to point out what is incorrect and to give some sort of reference that can be checked to backup her statement.
As to the Maggot Punks I call their tireless research and documentation, their dedication and their Web site excellent work. I notice they always provide their sources so that it can be independably researched.
As to the crematoria. Like several in the Wichita area it has to meet criteria which includes a mesh cap that precludes "ash raining down". It would seem that the anti choice protestors have claimed to smell burning flesh even when the crematoria was not in use and when neither the patients or staff could smell anything. I would chalk that up to group hysteria. I think what really bothers the anti choicers is that the fact that some families have their fetuses creamated so that they can keep the ashes shows that many of these families are grief stricken that the pregnancy has gone so wrong, that the fetus is so damaged that a much wanted pregnancy has been so terribly aflicted. It puts the lie to the claim that they are all either just lazy or selfish in making a decision based on their own intimate knowlege of their own pregnancy and circumstances and not on the demands of a group of strangers that have absolutely no knowledge of either the pregnancy, the womans medical history or the circumstances.

reply from: yoda

REALLY??? What exactly have you done to "support" women who carry to term lately? And why would they come to an abortion mill to begin with?? Does Killer Tiller pay you to "support women who carry to term"? Is that a part of your job description, or does you job just involve killing babies full time??
I'm male. And the question to you was rhetorical. Look that up.
Then why did you quote them???? What's the point in listing them as a source if you're not going to claim their information is true?????
Yeah, sources like wikipedia and Killer Tiller....... yeah, that's real documentation!
"Some families"??? Don't you routinely burn all the bodies????? Or do you take them to the dump???
"Much wanted pregnancy"?????? Is that the "Euphemism of the Day" today????? Would it break your jaw to say "much wanted child"... or "much wanted baby"??????

reply from: sistersister

I give time and money. I am involved with many groups so why would I be confined to women who have chosen based on their own knowledge of their pregnancy, health and circumstances) come to a legal clinic to have a legal abortion.
I donate to groups that help battered women and children. I also work in groups that support workers rights. I have lots of contact with women and those that need my help I help as I can including many who are pregnant and want to continue the pregnancy.
I do not have to work as my husband makes a very good living, we do not use credit cards so do not have much in the way of bill and our farm is paid for. I have voluntered at the clinics since 1984 without pay. I would happily do my job here for free. I am lucky enough that I get paid to do something I so fervently believe in. That fact enables me to use that paycheck to help others which is where it goes.
Males can be whores. Why are you unwilling to answer a question you ask of others? Rhetorical or not you asked me the question and I returned the favor. I answered it you did not.
I did not quote wikipedia. I did not mention wikipedia until the other poster did and then to ask her for what exactly she felt was incorrect and her facts to shore up her statement. I do not have to rely on wikipedia aa source as I have my many notebooks with newspaper articles, articles off of orws own web site, my knowledge of the clinic where I work and its staff, my notes and knowledge of orws sullingers going back to the 80's even before the bombings and their convictions on conspiracy. I have my hours of tape recordings from the eighties on of anti choicers and thier statements and a huge number of photos. Not to say that I do not use the court documents and other material that is so easy now to aquire over the web.
What is your obsession with wikipedia? The Maggot Punks use pretty much the same resources as I or anyone else who is interested in getting information that can be documented.
For most of the world a child is defined as being between birth and puberty. The clinic is a medical facility and as such zygotes , embryos, fetuses are refered to by their medical terms and by the medical definition. A fetus is a potential child. Baby is a colloquialism (which you might want to look up). When I was pregnant (all five times) I refered to my condition as being pregnant. When I had my miscarrage I refered to it as losing the pregnancy. Once I had given birth I refered to the child as a baby. I prefer to use the correct terms, however I allow the woman that is carrying the pregnancy to set the terms. If she prefers to use baby than I use the word baby. And yes in many of these cases these families are losing the pregnancy and the much loved potential child or baby or what ever you care to call a fetus once it is born.
Like hospitals every where, we follow the criteria of the State for disposal after a woman misscarries.
Some questions, what do you think they do with all those women who die every day around the world from complications of pregnancy and from illegal abortions? I bet they were also their families much wanted children or babies. Perhaps we should get some posters of them lying in their own blood. We could mount them on old U-haul trucks see how many people we can piss off by showing them to small children. Hey at least our pictures regarding pregnancy would have the woman in them!
Let me see

reply from: AshMarie88

Of course, many people get paid to kill innocent people. They're referred to as what, the mob?
The abortion mob, in this case.

reply from: AshMarie88

First, dangerous pregnancies make up less than 3% of all pregnancies, so your argument doesn't really hold up when talking about the majority.
Second of all, abortion has nothing to do with reproduction because you're not reproducing when you abort. PREGNANCY is about reproduction, NOT abortion. When you're pregnant, you've already reproduced, you cannot undo that reproduction process. You can kill it, you can terminate it, but it doesn't change the fact it already was reproduced and already exists. Just like you can't change the fact that once you kill a born person they were reproduced and they already existed. They're just dead now, to still exist but no longer exist mentally.
Get it?

reply from: AshMarie88

Oh I forgot, pro-aborts know nothing of the reproduction phase or biology...

reply from: sistersister

Again simply petty name calling and no debate or facts. Let's see people who might be considerered to be paid to kill innocent people..... bomber pilots seems to fit better than the mob since the mob usually has peopl;e killed that are in business with it. At any rate your post does not address the debate. It is simply a statement of your own personal interpretation of a procedure you do not approve of.

reply from: AshMarie88

It addresses your illogical perception of what you think the truth is. You're just afraid to comment back because you know you're wrong.

reply from: sistersister

Wow two more posts in a row. Still with only your opinions and nothing to support those oppinions.
Could you give me something factual that would shore up you premise that "pro-aborts know nothing of the reproduction phase or biology..."?
Also I think what you ment was reproductive phase and it would help if you could mabe be more specific to which reproductive phase that might be. Some examples would be menarchy, menapause, puberty, pregnancy, lactation, menstration, ovalation....
If you are refering to the zygote, embryo or fetus I think what you want is phase of development.
In biology the original organism reproduces and what is being reproduced developes. So in humans the woman would be going through the phases of reproduction from the onset of puberty to the completion of menapause (even if she never has sex or becomes pregnant she will still release eggs, menstrate and go through the hormonal releases of the reproductive cycle) The zygote, embryo, fetus goes through stages of development on its way to full development and becoming a fully independent reproduction of its parents.

reply from: sistersister

No it addresses nothing it is simply a statement of your perception.
I'm never afraid to comment back. It just helps if there is some substace to a post that would indicate the debate.
I've read these threads for quite a while and a great many of them simply result in the posters doing something along the lines of "I know you are but what am I" or in as I have said petty name calling to cover the lackof actual debate material.
So what is it that you think is what I think is the truth? How is what I think illogical? And more to the point where is your argument and references to back up your statements?

reply from: AshMarie88

You support the murder of the unborn just because of how developed they are and where they live. I'd say that's pretty illogical.

reply from: yoda

At the abortion mill? What do you do at the abortion mill to support "choice"? How many women have you referred for adoption who came in for an abortion? To which agency did you refer them? Will they have a record of that?
Nope: whore . noun derogatory a prostitute or promiscuous woman. http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/whore?view=uk ...
And I'm not a "whore hopper either". And I don't help kill babies for a living, either.
Wow.... you really have an obsession with OR, don't you? Got some reliable links (no proabort websites)?
Lies, lies, and more lies!! Do you never stop lying?????
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: Main Entry: child 1 : an unborn or recently born person http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/child
">http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/child
MSN-Encarta Online:ba·by noun (plural ba·bies) 2. unborn child: a child that is still in the womb http://dictionary.msn.com/find/entry.asp?search=baby
Information Please: child -n., 8. a human fetus. http://www.infoplease.com/
"Hospitals"? You compare your death camp to a hospital??? That means you consider pregnancy to be a disease, right????
So, DO YOU smell burning human flesh when they burn the dead babies.... yes or no????
Prolifers don't do illegal abortions... or legal ones. You PROABORTS do ALL of them. Why do you do that? Why do you kill so many women???
You don't have the courage, the dedication, or the gumption to do that, that's my opinion.

reply from: yoda

So you equate abortion with bombing during wartime????
Yeah, that's not a bad comparison...... except that there are no "combatants" at all in the womb.... and YOUR victims cannot hide or fight back..... or even make a noise.
Does that make it easier to kill them..... since they can't scream? Does that help you to sleep at night?

reply from: yoda

And "full independence" happens at what age... about 16 or 18 years?

reply from: sistersister

It becomes a independent reproduction of its parents when it is no longer attached to by tissue and blood vessels to the womans body and can sustain life independent of using her body.
Obsessed with orw not really. I do keep tabs on religious zealots that bomb buildings and shoot unarmed people. Everyone should.
Yes I compare the clinic to a hospital. In fact it is better equiped and well cared for than some hospitals I have worked in. The care is excellent, the staff careing and concerned.
wether or not "prolifers" do or do not preform abortions (I know alot of them comein to have abortions when they feel they need them) you did not address the part about the women who die each day around the world due to complications of pregnancy.
Actually there is a poster that predates roe that shows a woman who died of an illegal abortion and was left in a hotel room. As per usual the idea of the posters was not original tothe prolife movement.
I sleep very well at night. In part becuase I have the memory of all the women I have talked to and the letters they send to the clinic months and years after they have come to the clinic thanking the doctors and staff and letting us know how they are doing.
Why do you think I would have to limit myself and my donations to the clinic. The women I see at the clinic have thought through their decision if they were unsure of having the abortion they would not make it through the screening process to begin with. They have made their choice I support their right to do so.
As for courage and gumption, you go ahead and believe what ever makes you feel better. I don't think I lack in either department, and I know I have absolute dedication to supporting womens reproductive rights. I have daughters and grand daughters that keep me dedicated to not allowing a group of fanatics to take those rights away from them. Their bodies, their pregnancys their choice with my total support for what ever they choose.

reply from: sistersister

This thread has gone completely off topic. Was that deliberate? I thought it was started to disscuss troynewman and his request for "jack". His claim he bought the clinic on central and closed it down and other claims. Flip benhams letter to not give to troy becuase troys claims are bogus.
I'd also like to add the topic of the really down and dirty feud in Granite City between the michaels who seem to be on the OSA side of things and under attack by the missionaries tot he unborn web site that supports troy.
Talk about the mob (as one poster did) this all sure looks like a turf war. I guess it was inevitable as resources diminished and the political tide began to turn.

reply from: Teresa18

Well how about this, guys? We have an employee of the most notorious abortionist in our country posting here. Just like Carie, she is proud of her "work".
Now to address Sister's posts.
You aren't much of a pro-lifer is you are offended by the people protesting the killing as opposed to the people doing the actual killing.
Wow! Has the increase in "doctors" doubled the amount of babies you are able to kill every day?
Is the pot attempting to call the kettle black? Your income is primarily made from denying a child in the womb his/her personhood everday. You tell people the child is not a person, not worthy of life, and kill the child. Abortion is one of the biggest lies ever told!
Choice comes before on has sex, as in the choice whether or not to have sex or use birth control. Once a new life has been concieved and the woman is pregnant, she has already reproduced. Nature will naturally terminate the pregnancy in nine months.
You work for the "right" for the woman to kill her own child.
Pregnancies at risk to the mother's health or life make up 3% of the total abortions that occur in this country. We know you do abortions on perfectly healthy women and children or on children you declare "not perfect" due to a health issue.
Are you telling us you are Christian? God is quite clear when he says, "Thou shall not kill". Jesus said to love one another as he loved us. Surely you would not see Jesus ripping babies limb from limb, suctioning them through a tube, injecting them in the heart, or birthing them deceased and calling it "helping" women. Afterall, those babies were created by God, and they were made in his image and likeness as all men are. He made them, loved them, and had a plan for them.
You are pro-abortion. You support the legal access to abortion. Just like a person who is pro-gun supports legal access to guns, a person who supports capital punishment supports legal use of capital punishment for violent criminals, and a person who is pro-gay marriage supports gay marriage being legal. Surely one who is pro-gun, pro-capital punishment, or pro-gay marriage is not arguing that everyone must own a gun, every criminal must be executed for a crime, or all marriage must be homosexul. You guys like to twist things and say that pro-abortion means you are for abortion in all circumstances, but you can see that people who are pro other things aren't for those things being used in all circumstances, they just support their legality. It is the same way with abortion.
There really are only two choices, not three. One is life and the other is death. If you don't support life, then the only choice left is death. You guys like to use "choice" because it is a euphemism for covering up what the alternative to life is. Face it, if you support abortion, you should not be embarrased to say it. People who are in the above listed categories aren't, just abortion. I think deep down, you guys know how horrible abortion really is. That's why you won't say it. You know abortion is wrong. You know it ends the life of another person. People don't want to be told they are anti-choice. It makes them sound intolerant. It's cool to be for choice, but you know if people knew and said the reality of the choice all the time (abortion), they wouldn't accept it so much.
Can you smell burning flesh? The smell of dead babies burning mustn't bother you too much. You go to work everyday and smell it.
What bothers us is that you are killing babies legally and burning them. Period. Just because a child is not perfectly healthy, doesn't mean the child deserves to be killed. Do we kill unhealthy born people? Perhaps you guys would like to legalize euthanasia to allow that, who knows? The only difference in killing an unhealthy unborn person and an unhealthy born person is size and location.
Yoda can easily prove you wrong with definitions. He probably has already done so.
Zygote, embryo, and fetus are stages of life just as infant, toddler, child, adolescent, teenager, adult, and senior citizen are stages of life. One thing is consistent in all these stages. A person begins at conception and is a person who will grow and develop through all life's stages until death. The only difference between the first three stages and the latter is size and location.
Oh dear. You guys, primarily a life ending facility, compare yourselves to a life saving facility, a hospital.
The women who die from pregnancy complications, don't die because they don't have access to abortion. They die because they don't have access to adequate medical care. The answer is to provide good health clinics and hospitals. Pro-lifers don't support abortions, legal or illegal, so deaths due to illegal abortions are not our fault. We try to discourage all abortion. Furthermore, the numbers regarding deaths related to illegal abortion are discredited in this thread, and I have information showing how they are purposely inflated to keep abortion legal.
Mine is the last post in this thread.
http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=3143&enterthread=y

The zef is person in each of those stages. One is not fully independent of ones parents until one is 18 years old.
Just because the child is attached to the woman, does not mean the child is not a separate entity. The child has separate DNA, sometimes gender, blood, and organs.

reply from: sistersister

My income comes from my husband and my farm. As I said I would do my job at the clinic for free but since they pay me I am able to use those monies to help others.
xian??? No I'm one of the lucky ones who escaped the evangelical xian cult. I guess you could say I was saved or I saw the light and broke free of xianity.
Once again why are you going off topic. If you do not want a thread about troy how about a general one about the prolife, orw vs osa turf war. The video on missionaries to the unborn is very enlightening as are the transripts posted by stevie given by ms michaels. You can just feel the xian love.
Do you think that the turf war is the result of those sources of donation begining to dwindle along with interest in the prolife anti choice movement as a whole in politics. Or do you think it is simply the result of two very large egos that both want to be head honcho?

reply from: MC3

ConcernedParent:
First, let me re-state a couple of things I said in a previous post to which you did not respond. Despite the fact you do not know me, you admitted that you personally dislike me. Then you said that you went "digging" for something to justify questioning my integrity but "grudgingly admit" that you found nothing. As I pointed out, your use of the word "grudgingly" is a confession that your goal was not to determine whether I had integrity but to dredge up some dirt to support your preconceived notion that I did not. Next, you stated that, "...if I were inclined to simply 'throw someone under the bus' without reasonable justification, you would be my man..." To that, I asked why would you would want to throw someone under the bus without reasonable justification. Like I said, you have not yet responed to any of the points I raised.
There seems to pattern here in which you never allow your complete ignorance of the facts to keep you from having a rock-solid opinion. I have noticed in my life that this is a fairly common trait among people who are, shall we say, not the brightest stars in the sky. Now you demonstrate that unfortunate mental limitation once more. You have chosen to weigh in on the attack that is being waged against Troy, despite it being clear that you know absolutely nothing about it.
As someone who does know what is going on, I can assure you that Randall Terry's behavior in this matter is indefensible. Of course, I'm certain that is of no importance to you since, for people like you, mere facts are no match for prejudices. I did notice, however, that you made sure to cover you ass by stating that you "do not trust Terry and Benham either." You went on to label all three of them "birds of a feather" due to their "association with militant extremists." My question is, can you be a little more specific? Is it possible for you to give us the names of these "militant extremists" and provide details about the "association" to which you referred?
And while you're laying out the details of that alliance, also tell us what it is like to be on the same side of this issue with moral degenerates like SisterSister. You know, CP, there is an old saying that when you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas. I guess that, pretty soon, you'll be able to tell us what you get when you lay down with sewer rats. Whatever it is, I'm betting that it is a lot worse than fleas.

reply from: MC3

ConcernedParent,
I am finding this argument to be boring and silly, but I cannot let what you are saying go unexposed.
First, agreeing with pro-aborts that born children should not be killed is hardly analogous to joining with them to attack your fellow pro-lifers. Your suggestion to the contrary is especially odious since the subject of the attack is one that you clearly know almost nothing about.
Second, in one of your previous posts you said that it was not necessary for you to answer my question about why you would want to "throw me under the bus" without justification. You claimed that you didn't need to respond because you never said such a thing. You lied. In the original post to which I had referred, you stated: "...if I were inclined to simply "throw someone under the bus" without reasonable justification, you would be my man, not Troy..."
Third, I am certainly used to the pro-choice mob lying about me and, given their abysmal immorality, I expect no more from them. However, I am incensed when people who claim to be on my side of this battle lie about me or attack me with no justification. If, in your opinion, aggressively defending myself in that situation makes me unlikable, or vicious, or lacking in self-control, I guess I'll just have to live with that.
Fourth, I asked you to back up your charge that Troy had some sort of "association" with "militant extremists" by giving us the names of these militant extremists and providing details about this association. Your response was that I was already aware of it. I'm not certain how it is that you know what I am aware of and not aware of, but that rather bizarre answer suggests you have nothing upon which to base this claim.
Finally, your statement that "we will never influence people by being jerks" demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of this forum. You need to understand that, with virtually no exceptions, the people who come onto a forum about abortion are already either staunchly pro-life or staunchly pro-abortion. Simply put, abortion-related forums do not produce an environment where people can be won or lost.
The point is, this forum was created as a vehicle for pro-lifers to communicate with each other, share ideas, and stay informed. The pro-aborts who come here basically serve as foils for our amusement and exercise to keep our skills sharp. When dealing with these people, the two things we must always remember are that (1) we are soldiers in a war that is being waged against the unborn and (2) the goal of war is not to convert the enemy but to stop them.

reply from: yoda

No, a newborn baby is still totally dependent. Morally, it matters not at all upon whom an individual is dependent. And an attachment to the womb has no moral significance either, it's simply a physical fact of reproduction.
More significantly, the lack of "physical separation" has no moral weight at all. There is no logic, no rhyme, no reason why being attached to your mother during the universal and mandatory process of gestation should give your mother a right to kill you. And you don't even attempt to explain why you think it should. Like all baby killers, you simply say she has that right.
As I recall, there's only been one shooting at your abortion mill, and no bombings. How many people does that require you to "keep track of"?
I'd sure hate to be in any hospital you're ever worked in.
Why should I? I don't advocate doing abortion that may kill them, like you do. Not to mention that 95% of all abortions are done for "non-medical" reasons...... and that you use that 5% as a smokescreen to hide the 95% behind.... quite dishonestly. Let's talk about the 95%, shall we?
You have no idea what I "think". I asked about what you do at the clinic, because this discussion is supposed to be about the abortion industry, not about your personal life.... which you can lie about with total impunity here. We both know that abortion mills do not refer ANYONE to adoption agencies, and they don't do prenatal care. The are for KILLING BABIES..... PERIOD!! So how does your work at the abortion mill support "choice".... by killing babies????
What I believe seems to be proven true by your words.... or your hot air, I should say. You won't be doing anything like what you mentioned... which a person who actually believes what you claim to would do. You're all hot air, and no substance.

reply from: MC3

ConcernedParent,
Your claim that I attack every pro-lifer who disagrees with me is asinine. My closest friends are among the movement's leaders and there are things about which we strongly disagree. Even in the case of my co-hosts on LifeTalk, I have on-going disagreements with Fr. Pavone, Troy, Johnny Hunter. I have also had guests on the show with whom I disagree on certain subjects. Moreover, these issues are often privately debated by us and, in some cases, these debates have been going on for years. Just one example of this would be the death penalty. I am as staunchly opposed to it as some of my associates are in favor of it. I even had one person tell me that opposition to the death penalty is unscriptural. Despite that, I remain close to this person today and, in fact, we are currently working on a project together.

You may not understand this concept, but I think such disagreements are healthy as long as they are based on realities and not personalities. I agree with the principal that if two people always agree one of them is unnecessary.
In any event, as I said earlier, I am finding this "Am-Not! Am-Too!" exchange with you to be boring and silly. We are chasing out tails and, to be honest about it, I am ashamed that I have participated in it as long as I have. So I'll let you have the last word.

reply from: yoda

And how about this ludicrous notion? "As I pointed out, your use of the word "grudgingly" is a confession that your goal was not to determine whether I had integrity but to dredge up some dirt to support your preconceived notion that I did not."
Did you also think it also unnecessary to respond to that one too?
What association? Do you not understand the word "specific"?

reply from: yoda

No. There are no "immoral actions" separate from the motives of the actor. You must start with the motive, and then you know the moral status of the action that flowed from it. If someone in a delirious fever harms an innocent person because they hallucinated and thought that person was trying to harm them, there is no immorality involved. It's really quite simple.
Ah, YOUR PERCEPTION of my "implication" is a basis for you to attack me once again???? Why am I not surprised at your lack of moral integrity? Who could be surprised that you tell yet one more nasty lie....?????

reply from: yoda

IMPLICATIONS are in the dirty mind (YOURS) of the nasty lying perceiver, not in the post of the victim of your nasty attacks.

reply from: yoda

No, I did, and you ignored it, as if it had not been said at all.
No, or you would have responded directly to that post, would you not? Instead, you simply may a specious and false claim about what I've said.
No, I have not, or you would've replied directly to that post. Again, you make a generalized and false accusation instead of responding to my actual words.
That's really sad...... you get all worked up about your perceptions of my "implications", and go off on a muds-slinging tantrum....
Have you considered medical help for your paranoia?

reply from: yoda

I could've told you that long ago.

reply from: yoda

Wow..... do you live in a house with no mirrors at all? Amazing!!

reply from: DocQuack

Yoda, Faith Man..... I keep you two monsters in my prayers but have nothing to argue about with you two. It is pointless. Don't bother writing back to me because I will not see it until who knows when. The only reason I came back here was because the thread pulled upon an a Google while researching some pro-life sites. Curiosity drew me in. I see you're having problems with this Sister Sister baby-killer and, no, she is not me in disguise.
ConcernedParent -- I have no fight with you. Don't know you well enough or your history here. That's between you and these guys.
Sister Sister..... I could not resist chiming in upon seeing all your "Xtian" talk and clear satanic implication of your inability to invoke the name of Christ. I could not leave these helpless Protestant bible pounders and gunhappy agnostics at your demonic intellectual mercy! :-) Unlike FaithMan, I won't call you names. Unlike Master Yoda, I will not bother to debate with a borthead. No, no, no. I have only these words below to say to that which exists deeply embedded in your soul. And I want you to know that, rather than hate you as a baby killer, I will even say a rosary tonight for your eventual conversion after the below prayer has hammered away at you.
Laugh and deny it as you like, but you will feel the locution as you read and it will hammer away at you -- growing and growing in intensity -- until your life is fully broken down into repentance. From the moment you read this, and even if you don't, your soul will be released and returned to God. I am not even a priest, but, check with your devils: these words are authorized to laity -- and even the Protestants on this forum. The words and power to command what is within you are authorized to even the worst of sinners.
Pleasant dreams, my dear. In the name of Our Lord and Your Lord, Jesus Christ, may the babies you have slain as a "xtian" torment you until your lost soul is recovered! :-) Where they all would love to kill you or see you burn in Hell, I offer you these prayers on behalf or your soul. And, when you have converted someday, you go seek out this FaithMan and Yoda or any number of these hostile pro-lifers and tell them your story. Tell them you were coverted by strong prayer, not the ways of men. And take all your intelligence on abortion clinics to the pro-life cause. All these things you will do before taking your last breath. Because you would not even dare type the Holy Name, I sign and seal that contract and prophecy for your soul in the name of Jesus Christ.
..As Judge Quacky would say. So it is written. So it shall be done! Amen.
-------------------
In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
Most glorious Prince of the Heavenly Armies, Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in "our battle against principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places" (Eph., 6,12). Come to the assistance of men whom God has created to His likeness and whom He has redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. Holy Church venerates thee as her guardian and protector; to thee, the Lord has entrusted the souls of the redeemed to be led into heaven. Pray therefore the God of Peace to crush Satan beneath our feet, that he may no longer retain men captive and do injury to the Church. Offer our prayers to the Most High, that without delay they may draw His mercy down upon us; take hold of "the dragon, the old serpent, which is the devil and Satan", bind him and cast him into the bottomless pit ... "that he may no longer seduce the nations" (Apoc. 20, 2-3).
---
In the Name of Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, strengthened by the intercession of the Immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of Blessed Michael the Archangel, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul and all the Saints we confidently undertake to repulse the attacks and deceits of the devil.
Psalm 67
God arises; His enemies are scattered and those who hate Him flee before Him. As smoke is driven away, so are they driven; as wax melts before the fire, so the wicked perish at the presence of God.
Behold the Cross of the Lord, flee bands of enemies.
The Lion of the tribe of Juda, the offspring of David, hath conquered.
May Thy mercy, Lord, descend upon us.
As great as our hope in Thee.
We drive you from us, whoever you may be, unclean spirits, all satanic powers, all infernal invaders, all wicked legions, assemblies and sects. In the Name and by the power of Our Lord Jesus Christ, may you be snatched away and driven from the Church of God and from the souls made to the image and likeness of God and redeemed by the Precious Blood of the Divine Lamb.
Most cunning serpent, you shall no more dare to deceive the human race, persecute the Church, torment God's elect and sift them as wheat. The Most High God commands you, He with whom, in your great insolence, you still claim to be equal. "God who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2,4).
God the Father commands you. God the Son commands you. God the Holy Ghost commands you. Christ, God's Word made flesh, commands you; He who to save our race outdone through your envy, "humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death" (Phil.2,8); He who has built His Church on the firm rock and declared that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Her, because He will dwell with Her "all days even to the end of the world" (Matt. 28,20). The sacred Sign of the Cross commands you, as does also the power of the mysteries of the Christian Faith. The glorious Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, commands you; she who by her humility and from the first moment of her Immaculate Conception crushed your proud head. The faith of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and of the other Apostles commands you. The blood of the Martyrs and the pious intercession of all the Saints command you.
Thus, cursed dragon, and you, diabolical legions, we adjure you by the living God, by the true God, by the holy God, by the God "who so loved the world that He gave up His only Son, that every soul believing in Him might not perish but have life everlasting" (St.John 3, 16); stop deceiving human creatures and pouring out to them the poison of eternal damnation; stop harming the Church and hindering her liberty. Begone, Satan, inventor and master of all deceit, enemy of man's salvation. Give place to Christ in Whom you have found none of your works; give place to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church acquired by Christ at the price of His Blood. Stoop beneath the all-powerful Hand of God; tremble and flee when we invoke the Holy and terrible Name of Jesus, this Name which causes hell to tremble, this Name to which the Virtues, Powers and Dominations of heaven are humbly submissive, this Name which the Cherubim and Seraphim praise unceasingly repeating: Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord, the God of Hosts.
O Lord, hear my prayer.....And let my cry come unto Thee.
May the Lord be with thee.....And with thy spirit.
God of heaven, God of earth, God of Angels, God of Archangels, God of Patriarchs, God of Prophets, God of Apostles, God of Martyrs, God of Confessors, God of Virgins, God who has power to give life after death and rest after work: because there is no other God than Thee and there can be no other, for Thou art the Creator of all things, visible and invisible, of Whose reign there shall be no end, we humbly prostrate ourselves before Thy glorious Majesty and we beseech Thee to deliver us by Thy power from all the tyranny of the infernal spirits, from their snares, their lies and their furious wickedness. Deign, O Lord, to grant us Thy powerful protection and to keep us safe and sound. We beseech Thee through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen.
From the snares of the devil,... Deliver us, O Lord.
That Thy Church may serve Thee in peace and liberty: We beseech Thee to hear us.
That Thou may crush down all enemies of Thy Church: We beseech Thee to hear us.

reply from: yoda

That's an absolutely fascinating observation. You spend at least half your time condemning others by association, and now you object to that?
AMAZING!!

reply from: yoda

Another fascinating post from paranoidparent. I've answered every one of your silly questions in detail, and now you're going to sulk because you didn't get the answers you wanted?????
Poor baby!!

reply from: yoda

Well Doc, at least you did respond to the baby killer.... which is more than I can say for many of our so-called "prolifers" on this forum. Some of them are too busy attacking other prolifers to be bothered, apparently.

reply from: yoda

I see no difference in your unproven, undocumented allegations of "association" and your associations, no.

reply from: AquaGirl

Sorry I have taken awhile to respond. I have not had time to read any responses until now.
I will not correct info. from Wikipidia as it just gets changed back and it is so wrong it is good for Troy and OR!
I wonder if Sistersister was present when Christen Gilbert died from her abortion and what kind of "choice" that poor child had. Did you hold her hand? Wipe her tears? What a sad case...

reply from: faithman

May haps she be the one who told the ambulance folk not to run their sireen.

reply from: sander

Boo-hoo! What does he expect?
It should be you and your murderering co-horts in jail. It should be your morals and judgement and murdering tactics that are endlessly questioned.
So stuff your condensending tears, try shedding one, for one of the nearly 4,000 babies that were murdered today.

reply from: sander

I repeat: put a sock in it, murderer.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I don't know if concernedparent realizes this about himself; but he cannot let go of a subject until he has had the last best word on the topic. It is very important to him to win the debate. We are all like that to a degree; but concernedparent is tenacious.

reply from: joe

There is no "both" sides. You kill and we must stop you...it is not a debate.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I agree with "Truth Trucks". US citizens need their noses rubbed in it like little puppies that have urinated on the floor. Those who take abuse from showing American atrocities need to be appreciated and thanked for doing such a thankless service.
All activities must be carried out within the parameters of the law.

reply from: yoda

Well said, Joe. And that's exactly what Mark says as well.

reply from: sander

No it's not, Mark tolerates you proaborts, you've not been extended an inviation. He thinks you serve a purpose for prolifers to sharpen their debate skills, it was not the primary intention of this site.
You are an intruder.
If you think for a single second that Mark thinks there are "two" sides to this issue, you're even more dense than I thought.

reply from: yoda

If she thinks that, I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona I'll sell her....

reply from: sander

And I've got a bridge to nowhere she can have pretty cheap.
But, she operates her entire life on delusions, so no surprise she thought this was a place where her murderous side had a place.

reply from: faithman

And I've got a bridge to nowhere she can have pretty cheap.
But, she operates her entire life on delusions, so no surprise she thought this was a place where her murderous side had a place.
Oh come on now!!! We must LLLLLLLLLOVVVVVVE them and ignore that they want to kill babies. Cholate and tea anybody?

reply from: yoda

Nancy has some chocolate and tea. I saw it in 4given's photos.

reply from: nancyu

Good old Yoda, still ignoring "disruptive" posters and concentrating his efforts on saving those babies! I wonder how many were saved by this post, which appears to be one more dig at CM...and on a thread where he condemns prolifers for questioning the tactics of other prolifers, calling them "attacks," and implying that those who question the tactics of fellow prolifers are not really prolife. Ironic, huh?
It may just save alot more babies than you realize. The tea and chocolate is a BAD idea, and can encourage rather than discourage abortion, whether you choose to believe it or not.

reply from: Skippy

No it's not, Mark tolerates you proaborts, you've not been extended an inviation.
I think that xenatiger can be forgiven her mistaken impression, based on the misleading and somewhat "truth-challenged" blurb on the main page:
"The best abortion-related forum on the internet. It's where your voice can be heard and where you can interact with people from all over the world on both sides of the issue."
It is only on the forum itself that the site owner reveals that the "invitation" is not sincere.
It isn't working. Most of you aren't very good at that whole "debate" thing. And you spend way more time squabbling amongst yourselves than actually engaging in serious debate with the "other side."

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I don't know if concernedparent realizes this about himself; but he cannot let go of a subject until he has had the last best word on the topic. It is very important to him to win the debate. We are all like that to a degree; but concernedparent is tenacious.
I don't always get the last word, but it's good to hear you think my word is "best."
Well, I should have said after you believe you've had the last best word; in your mind. I simply get tired of keeping up the argument and trying to convince you of the error of your ways.
I believe you are too accepting/permissive in some cases and intolerance is appropriate against certain lifestyles/belief systems.


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