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Why do prolifers oppose simple needs

by: coco

Christian Pro-Life advocates who are consistent in their concern for the needy, deserve a lot of respect. But not so Conservative Republicans who consistently oppose the efforts of liberal Democrats to help the poor, the homeless, the uninsured, the underpaid, and minorities of all kinds, and then trot out Christ's teaching about helping "the least of these my brothers" to support their anti-abortion position! Why can't the advocates of justice for the homeless, for minorities, for the uninsured, the imprisoned, for victims of various kinds of abuse get the kind of attention and support from Conservative Christians that abortion gets? *1
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/abortion-1.html

reply from: yoda

What does your question have to do with the morality of killing babies, coco?

reply from: coco

I may be pointing out why SOME women choose abortion, yoda!!!

reply from: Wrench

That's a pretty blanket statement. Speaking as a Libertarian, the objection is not with helping such people, but with the idea that it is the government's place to help them - even when government proves inefficient - despite the fact that private charities are more effective both at appropriating funds, and at rehabilitation, which should be the ultimate goal of any social welfare program, governmental or not. I fully support and endorse all private organizations which seek to help those in need, and hope one day to have established my own nonreligious crisis pregnancy care center / mother's home; what I object to is the government going into my paycheck, and deciding without my consent how much of it I "deserve" to keep, and how much of it should go to someone whose situation I don't even know, who very well may be defrauding the system out of money that should be going to someone who needs it.
I wouldn't trust the government to take care of a stray cat, much less the millions of people who have learned nothing but dependency on an impersonal government, whose only job, in their mind, is to write checks and make money appear from thin air. The government has been using the welfare system as its main weapon in the "war on poverty" for the last 40 years. I'm forced to conclude that the war is over, and welfare has lost. It's time for something new.

reply from: faithman

Once again, little miss ignorant sticks her foot in her mouth up to the knee. It was liberal Dems who opposed Bush's health care for pregnant poor, because they feared it gave person hood to their babies and endangered Roe. What is opposed, is forced taxation to suport the lazy. And just so you know, it is the Christians who run homeless ministries at no expence to government, It was Christians who dominated the civil rights movement, or have you forgotten that Martin was the Reverand Martin Luther King JR. Chuck Colsons runs prison ministries that converts folk and drasticly reduces rasidavism rates. There are numerous abuse shelters ran by Christians at no expence to Government. Government always messes things up, so why would we want to turn things over to government, that the primarily christian private sector does a SSSOOOO much better job of doing? Secular humanist Government does nothing better than Christians. Christian schools give better education. Most hospitals around the world were started by, and are ran by Christian organizations. The same is true for orphaneges.It is christians that primarily run hospice. No one in this country is under paid compared to the rest of the world, and who was on the forefront of the fare wage movement, as well as child labor laws? Check out a fella named Father Ryan. Yes it was a catholic priest, as well as other Christians that fought for fare busuiness practices. Womans sufferage was started by Christian women such as Susan B. Anthony. Your secular humanist hatred of Christ has blinded you.

reply from: yoda

Are you saying that some women choose abortion because they get mad at "Conservative Republicans"?
Do these Republicans looks like unborn babies, or what? What kind of justification is that for killing a baby?

reply from: yoda

Come on, people!
Neither religion nor politics is to blame for, nor the answer for the sickness of abortion!
But both of them are wonderful tools of abortion supporters for changing the subject and leading us down the primrose path!
Nothing that ANY born, adult person does can in any way justify the elective killing of a baby, period.

reply from: coco

FMAN YOU ARE THE ONE THAT IS NOT INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO UNDERASTAND THAT I AM NOT THE ONE TO SAY THIS??? And yoda yes having a concern myself as a "YOUNG MOTHER" at 18 YES of course these "matters" enter your mind!!! People on BOTH sides say how are you going to provide for a baby! but you wouldnt understand that because YOU, YOURSELF have never been a teen or a poor mother!

reply from: Wrench

Indeed; however, there are a great many pro-lifers, especially conservatives and Libertarians, who have a very short-sighted view of eliminating abortion. From another group:
Why I say that, if all children who would otherwise be aborted were forced to term it would be our undoing is that, quite simply, we have spent the last 30 years building up for ourselves a society in which the youngest members simply do not receive the care they need. Pro-lifers as a whole, but especially the very conservative / Libertarian (like myself) need to be realistic: If abortion were to be made immediately illegal for all reasons other than immediate threat of maternal death, the entire welfare system, including Medicare and Medicaid, would collapse, leaving most of those children not only without fathers (as most of them certainly would be), but also without medical care, and probably without mothers, who would have to work outside the home - likely more than one job.
This is why I disagree so strongly with those pro-lifers who want abortion to be illegal right now and won't support anything less. There are hundreds of issues that need to be fixed, both federally and socially, before we can start gathering around the boardroom table and saying, "Okay, let's keep moving forward from here." Everything from government corruption, to income taxes, to the welfare system, to the FDA and AMA keeping qualified doctors from practicing needs to be addressed on the governmental level; and everything from sex ed, parental involvement, the media, and the sexualization of minors needs to be addressed on the social side.
The ultimate goal of the pro-life movement should not be to make abortion illegal, but to create a society in which abortion is simply not an option. Because, ironically, that's the only way to make it illegal anyway.
I can go on and on about how evil the social welfare system is; but the fact remains that there are still people who are enslaved to it. Pulling the rug out from under their feet would be just as cruel as allowing them to remain slaves to the system. The third, and best option, is to provide a means for them to find their own way to freedom, and statistically, that path is best provided by the private sector.

reply from: coco

No one in this country is under paid compared to the rest of the world, and who was on the forefront of the fare wage movement, as well as child labor laws?
Are you simply that IGNORANT to say that!! I am not sure if you have noticed we live in the most "GREATEST, AND RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD"!! YOU have to "judge America on that viewpoint and standard!!

reply from: coco

I thought people would understand that I didnt write this that is why a put the LINK at the botttom of the statement, but apperantly I must state that BEFORE I post something!! I would like to know what you all say about this!! For those that dont understand why this topic would matter, FYI it does, As being a young mother These things enter your mind when you have NO HEALTH AND POOR PAYING JOB and then have a child!! Wrench I TOTALLY understand that you must stop out other problems before abortion aka the symptoms which cause abortion.

reply from: Wrench

The point is not that America is wealthy, which it is. The point is that those who earn their wealth, have also earned the right to do with it as they please. To violate that right by taking their money without their consent - without even seeking their consent - is the act of an unjust and perverse government.
Dress it up all you want, in the end it's still legalized theft.

reply from: coco

Well wrench this is we differ!! I think that people should understand that these are BASIC HUMAN NEEDS!! NOT ROLLS ROYCES, OR A MILLION DOLLAR HOME!! BAISC health, education, home and food!! How much luxury is this??? Taking money?? doesnt ALMOST everyone pay taxes?? I understand people like you who say end abortions but dont want to help the women who need help! Can you PLEASE make me understand your position?

reply from: faithman

REAL simple. If you don't have the ability to suport children, you shouldn't have them. It is imorale for people to have children they have no intention to suport, and force the rest of us thru government to do the providing. Where in the constitution does it say we owe anyone a living. You are to pusue happiness. That means get up off your duff and do somrthing for yourself. That means don't have children with a man that does not intend to actually provide, and father them. That means don't be a dead beat burden, but actually contribute to sociaty. And by the way dumby, taxes are taking money away from those who earn it, and are given to those who buy crack with it. Whos says we aren't willing to help? That is a false accusation on your part. That is just a lie your secular humanist brain washing has poluted your mind with.

reply from: Wrench

My position is that theft, even for altruistic reasons, is still theft, and therefore unjust. It's pretty simple. Those who endure the greatest tax burden are those who have honestly earned their money; it is not only wrong to take that from them, but to assume that they would not donate freely from their wealth is, frankly, insulting.
Yes, most honest people pay taxes; that is not the point. The point is that it is nonvoluntary to pay taxes. I'll give you a little story to illustrate my point more clearly.
Say you live in apartment B. Beside you, in C, is Bill. Bill is a stand-up kind of guy. He's married with three kids, the eldest of whom will be going to college this fall. Bill works 50 hours a week, pays his bills, goes to church, and provides a comfortable living for his family.
In apartment A is Jim. Jim is a nice enough guy whose life is a hard-luck story. His wife recently walked out on him with their only child, and he was recently fired from his job. He's begun to run into some money troubles, and doesn't know how he'll be able to pay the rent this month.
Since you're a good neighbor, though not well-off yourself, you offer to pay Jim's rent for the month, and help him get back on his feet. You help him buy groceries, and get him a suit from the Goodwill to wear to interviews.
But after three months, both your and Jim's money is running low. So you go over to Bill's apartment, and ask him if he'd be willing to assist you in lending Jim a hand. But to your surprise, Bill declines. "No, sorry, I just can't do it. My daughter's going to college and the whole family is going on vacation before she leaves. Plus the wife and I want to set up college accounts for our other two, and our Church really needs to do some repairs on the roof that we're helping to pay for... and we really don't see how we can afford to help Jim out, too."
Do you, then, have the right to use force to make Bill give his money to Jim?
No?
Then how can a government, of, by and for the people, have rights that the people themselves do not possess? What gives the government the right to use force to extract a person's due compensation for his own hard work? And if you think that the law is not force, I would ask that you read the story of Joe Lewis, an American hero left poor and destitute by an obscure IRS code.
If you think that's the kind of system necessary to "cure" poverty, then I'd say the cure is worse than the illness.

reply from: yoda

Indeed, all of us have our shortcomings...... (see, I can be a "moderator" ;D ) ..... but the shortcomings of the views of others on our side and on the other side have little to do with the basic struggle to end abortion. Instead of pointing out their short sightedness, let's point out the "long sightedness" of our own strategies and views for ending abortion.
Social inequalities hurt everyone, not just unborn babies. Yes, in times of starvation there is more temptation to kill children, both born and unborn, but that's not what the antiabortion movement is about. If we try to solve all of society's problems as a way to end abortion, we will end up solving nothing.

reply from: coco

http://socialismandliberation.org/mag/index.php?aid=783

reply from: Wrench

To be honest, if I wanted to be indoctrinated into Communism, I'd go to China. The author doesn't seem to have any actual knowledge of economics, and is merely saying what makes sense in his own personal socialist framework, rather than working from the evidence outward. But I will address two things about that article:
1) The author assumes that cooperations pay taxes. They don't. In the US, only private individuals can earn wealth, therefore only individuals can pay taxes; cooperate taxes are merely collected from individuals by the company. In effect, cooperate taxes just turn the company into another tax collector, but they make mindless drones think that somehow cooperations are paying "their fair share." As Neal Boortz put it, it's a great day for liberal politicians when they can say, "I'm going to pass a bill that will raise taxes and increase inflation," and the taxpayer responds with, "Thank you very much, Senator!"
2) The author does not even attempt to answer my question: If an individual does not have the right to use force to extract a portion of a person's earnings without that person's consent, how can a government comprised of said individuals have that right?

reply from: Wrench

Also, unless every teacher, doctor and farmer decided to work without being paid, there will never be any such thing as "free education, health care and food." No matter how pleasant and lovely that might sound, someone somewhere is going to pay for it.

reply from: faithman

The posting of this article not only proves that COCO is a secular humanist socialist. A socialist is a comunist without a gun.

reply from: Wrench

Y'know, people as rude as you are are the reason so many Christians feel the need to apologize for their faith. Not regarding this comment specifically, but I've been here less than a week and you're already pretty grating, even when I agree with your basic premise. Don't you think you lay it on unnecessarily thick?

reply from: 4given

Many would agree with that statement.. Laying it on thick- the thing is, you have been here a week or so, so w/out the history- it may sound to be more than harsh (as stated on a different thread) I have questioned her stance on abortion- Have you read through the many postings? Stem cell for one.. others follow. I don't desire to do more than educate, and this is the place to do so.. I have a problem w/ the pro-life community attacking one another.. yet- Both have been on the attack and defense- FMan has actually been an activist.. By stating that, it in no way means he is justified, but what has Coco done? Is she less valuable because she has an opinion or two and does nothing in the form of activism or education? Perhaps she has educated? COCO, have you? Who takes their spills beyond a forum page? I know some have. Does that mean I am to be discounted for my minor effort? We are to encourage one another, especially over the points that matter- THE BOTTOM LINE- SAVING HUMAN LIVES!!!!

reply from: Wrench

While I understand that everyone has the same goal and should be respected and appreciated for that, I can't help but be deeply saddened when I witness just how much disunity there is in the pro-life movement - ESPECIALLY when it comes to religious and political disagreement. I can disagree politically with Coco till kingdom come (and probably will), but that's not a commentary on what I think of her as a person.
As for "activism" as a shield, I don't think that's really fair. The pro-life movement needs two fronts: the "activists" and the spokespersons. Because abortion is a multi-layered issue, we need not only those who are willing to work with women and their children on the personal level, but also those writers, artists and politicians willing to work "behind the scenes," so to speak. Both sides need to work together to meet the ultimate goal - cutting off the nose to spite the face won't get us anywhere.

reply from: Wrench

Sorry, I misread what you said - so yes, I agree with you, I didn't mean that to come out sounding like I didn't

reply from: Teresa18

Coco, perhaps you can explain why you linked us up to this pro-abort site:
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/abortion-1.html

The heading on this site says: Why good Christians should be "Pro-Choice"
This site attacks pro-life views, supports pro-abort views, goes on to deny certain Biblical verses used by pro-lifers to support life are actually pro-life, attacks Christians opposed to birth control, attacks Christians opposed to government social programs, and finally goes on to strongly argue for abortion again. I even see a links to pro-abort sites like NARAL included. If you wanted to argue that while it's great we conservative Christians are pro-life, but it's bad that we don't support government social programs, why not use a pro-life liberal site that merits us for being pro-life but explains why we need to support government social programs? Instead you took a pro-abort site with a main emphasis on bashing us for being pro-life, throwing in that we need to support government social programs as well. Reading this, liberals don't seem to like Christ too much. Why must they bother to lie about it?
I support help for the poor, homeless, unisured, and underpaid. I'll get to minorities in a bit. I think the welfare system is necessary to help those in a rough patch that need food, clothing, shelter, and medical care. I think it needs to be pared down, and there should be an emphasis on getting able people off welfare with a decent job. However, I also think that private agencies can do a wonderful job helping those that are poor. The government should encourage them, and allow them to recieve funding. Bush did that with the CPCs. As far as the uninsured, depending on their situation, they may qualify for welfare. Other than that, we should encourage companies and agencies in the private sector to provide low cost insurance.
As far as minorities, I don't look at people based on skin color. All are equal in this country. Giving people special rights or privelages because their skin is a different color is not right in my book.
I have said that when we end abortion, all the money going to PP and funding needs to go to CPCs and low cost clinics for women who need it to recieve health care and help during their pregnancy and beyond.
Then you post a link the the Socialist Party. Your posts regarding sex ed and adoption have made me wonder if you were into that party or a very liberal Democrat.

reply from: faithman

To many have been infected with secular humanism thru public education. It is a godless world view, that is out to distroy the Christian faith, and the American democratic republican form of government. COCO, and CP are merely useful idiots, being exploited by a globalist movement that distorts history, perverts science, and is hell bent on destorying families, faith, and moral values. They represent a world view that needs to be eradicated, not reasoned with.

reply from: faithman

Y'know, people as rude as you are are the reason so many Christians feel the need to apologize for their faith. Not regarding this comment specifically, but I've been here less than a week and you're already pretty grating, even when I agree with your basic premise. Don't you think you lay it on unnecessarily thick?
Y&ou can apologize for the truth all you want. I feel no conpunction to do the same. And no, I don't think I lay it on thick enough. But the forum only lets me go so far.

reply from: yoda

Yes, coco, perhaps you could....... ????

reply from: coco

Yes, coco, perhaps you could....... ????
IS CALLED AN OPINION!!! I wanted OPINIONS on what you would say about THIS artical! Yoda, if it bothers you and others so much WHY do you continuse to comment?

reply from: yoda

You wanted to expose us to more PROABORT opinions?
Why? We already know what they think.... they love to kill babies, and they will say so.... dressed up in fancy words......
Why do you want to contribute PROABORT opinions to the forum?
Isn't it enough that we have real live PROABORTS who post here? Must we be linked to their websites too?

reply from: coco

To be honest with you I dont carry signs infront of abortions sites, I dont shout at women, etc. HOWEVER I AM AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF MY COMMUNITY, I AM A MENTOR AND A TUTOR FOR CHILDREN THAT ARE AT "RISK" and those that have been "LOCKED UP"gangbangers, car jackers, thefts, basiclly SOCIETIES so called "CASTOFFS" the "TROUBLE MAKERS". KIDS THAT PEOPLE GAVE UP ON, NEGATIVE STATICTICS , IF YOU WILL!! SO ACTUALLY yes I DO "TRY" to save human lives

reply from: coco

Fman why do you have a gun?? THOU SHALL NOT KILL REMEMBER??

reply from: coco

I PERSONALLY know what its like to be young, afraid, and broke TEEN mother! I was told that I would NEVER amount to ANYTHING!! A highschool dropout, battled SEVERE depression, NEGITIVE STATISTIC, and thought that I had NOTHING TO LIVE FOR!! NOW I am a junior in college, made the DEANS LIST and going for 2 degrees, with raising my children! I THINK MY WORD CAN HOLD SOME WATER WITH A GIRL THAT IS WONDERING IF SHE SHOULD ABORT!! Then I got help and understood that I can help those that I can actually help young women and teens that are young parents! When you go through the SH@#YOURSELF you tend to get a MORE respect from those that are undergoing hardships!!

reply from: coco

Just thought I should post my other comment on this topic too!!
YES for the MOST PART I am a PROUD SOCIALIST!! I think that ALL should have the basics home, food, shelter, healthcare!! I dont think putting a cap on income is right, but I dont think that some Basketball, Baseball, or football player that BARELY knows how to spell thier name should be paid $200 million while PEOPLE who actually DO something for society like teachers, social workers, etc have to worry about how they are going to make thier next house payment!! I dont believe in censorship, I do think that if you harm others AGAINST thier will then it is WRONG!! I think if you want to have a LARGE family you SHOULD adopt at LEAST ONE CHILD THAT NEEDS A HOME!!Those people should take in a child that is a "castoff" and make thier lives a positive one!! And I think if people want god in school then they should teach also about ALL (judisim, muslim, christain, hindu, buddist, etc.) I AM A HORRIABLE EVIL SATINIST SECULAR ARENT I?? I SHOULD BE BURNT AT THE STAKE, WITH MY TOE and FINGER NAILS PULLED OUT ONE BY ONE!! I just thought I should clear the air about my beliefs so you all can pick MY beliefs apart and then I will get mad and do some EVIL voo doo on you!!! ENJOY YOUR RESTFUL SLEEP TONIGHT!!! HAAAAAAHAAAAHAAA!!

reply from: 4given

And no one really knows what the other has been through, right? I agree w/ that last statement- I tend to trust one's opinion far more if coming from a place that involves experience.. Most do- My brother won't see a drug counselor unless they are a former addict.. things like that. I am happy that you are active in your community and have overcome many obstacles. Thank you for sharing that. Who would have known?

reply from: coco

4 given , YOU ARE RIGHT, I just think that some on here want to stop abortion and that is it!! ABORTION IS MORE THEN THAT, it is teen preganancy, low self esteem, not financially stable, mental anguish, etc you must solve the WHOLE problem not just half of it!! People on here say oh the bible this and the bible that, I am not knocking YOUR beliefs but they are just that YOUR beliefs!! America is not just christian citizens, it also has JEWISH, BUDDIST, HINDU, ETC not EVERYONE believes in the bibile and that is what MOST on here use as thier PRIMARY source of not having an abortion!! I just think abortion is wrong because it VIOLATES anothers rights!! Once again I am not KNOCKING christianity, but people on here MUST realize that america doesnt only have christatians!!

reply from: yoda

Lots of folks share your opinion. To some degree I do also, but I also have a deep appreciation for the positive things he's done. So, have your say, state your case, and see what effect you can have. Just about everyone else already has, before you arrived here. So, when you see someone trying to break up a feud, try to appreciate the history involved...... the history you're not aware of.....

reply from: Wrench

Lots of folks share your opinion. To some degree I do also, but I also have a deep appreciation for the positive things he's done. So, have your say, state your case, and see what effect you can have. Just about everyone else already has, before you arrived here. So, when you see someone trying to break up a feud, try to appreciate the history involved...... the history you're not aware of.....
Why should history allow someone to drag my faith through the mud? Sorry, but people who condemn "everyone else" to Hell in a spirit of hatred and pious self-righteousness aren't the kind of people I want to identify with. I'm sick of seeing people who have to explain, "I'm a Christian, but I'm not like those who feel the need to tell everyone they're going to Hell." Or, "I'm pro-life, but I'm not like those people who scream 'baby-killer' at every woman who's contemplated abortion." Every group is defined by its radical whack-jobs, and I don't want or need people like that defining what I believe strongest in.
Abortion-choicers didn't gain political and social power by reigning down fire and sulfur on all who disagreed with them, or by attacking one another, or by forcing their religion into the political spectrum. Doesn't that say something?

reply from: yoda

Perhaps you misread my post. "Have your say, state your case".

reply from: nykaren

You are absolutely right, Wrench. Good luck in making Fman or others of his ilk understand that, though. He takes extreme pride in his ignorance, and in the fact that he never apologizes to anyone. He calls himself a Christian, but if you check him out a bit, you'll find that most of the churches in Waco, TX, distance themselves from him and the "work" he and his group there do. He's actually on his best behavior here lately. When he gets out of control, he's evil incarnate. All in the name of God, of course. Even supports murdering doctors who perform abortions, I see in one of his recent posts, and in burning down clinics.

reply from: yoda

What is your status today, Karen...... "former prolifer", or "prochoicer"?

reply from: carolemarie

I just wanted to comment that it is unfair to assume that pro-lifers yell at women at the abortion clinic. While I can't speak for everyone, I would say that sidewalk counselors work very hard to be kind and try to reach out to the women coming in. It would be counter productive to be mean. We don't yell at them, we offer real help so they don't have to feel forced into choosing abortion. The perception that we are just there to yell and heap guilt on them is not true and unfair.
I heared this said or stated again and again by those who are pro-choice or who have never actually been to the clinics. It is a perception that is undeserved. So in the interest of accuracy, I wanted to address that.
Carole

reply from: nykaren

In case you've forgotten, you already had the last word on that, and the discussion is over.

reply from: Wrench

I certainly didn't mean to imply that sidewalk counselors are violent, loud, and condemning of any woman who may walk into a Planned Parenthood. There are many legitimate and praise-worthy sidewalk counselors who go into the trenches, day in and day out, and offer women the opportunity to make the choice they want, rather than the choice they feel forced into.
But the fact remains that any group is defined by its loudest, most obnoxious faction, and a great many sound, logical, rational, loving, and compassionate pro-lifers have found themselves defined in the public eye by the Bible-thumping scum-of-the-Earth who would rather damn a woman than help her. We, as the compassionate and loving majority, should always be sensitive to that fact, especially when dealing with the public - and when in private, I do think it's our duty to condemn and define ourselves as separate from such people. They certainly have no place in my pro-life philosophy.

reply from: yoda

That depends on who is doing the defining. Enemies of the prolife movement will take what they consider the most obnoxious examples of prolife actions and attempt to portray them as "typical", that is true. But anyone who is neutral or actually friendly will not. Sadly, most people in the press ARE our enemies, so there really isn't much we can do about that.
But in the end, each of us is on our own, to use our own individual judgment as which tactics we employ, and none of us has the right to impose our judgment on others who differ with us. Nor should we presume to have the right to decide who "genuinely" represents the prolife movement.

reply from: faithman

This mess called pro-life,. reminds me of the american civil war. The war could have been over much sooner, and many lives spared, accept the union forces were led by an enept General named Mccellan. He as a great organizer, was well loved by the troops, and made quite a splash on the parade ground. But was a total failure on the battle field. It wasn't until General Grant, who understood that war was a fight, and a very ugly business, that the war was finally brought to an end. "Pro-life" has far to many Mcclellans who want to look good on the parade ground, and don't care if we continue to loose, as long as we look good doing it. I could care less what the bortheads have to say. I could care less if you like me or not. My only focus is to end this horrible crime against the womb child. The quicker we get it thru our heads that this is a fight, and our enemy needs to be defeated, not reasoned with, the quicker we will end it, and the womb child will be protected from secular humanist monsters. "Pro-life" has painted itself into a very tight corner. I have studied the issue from top to bottom, and we have produced the most effective materials to address this issue in a peaceful way, but yet some folk would rather engage in grudge bearing because they dont care for my "style", instead of getting the free materials that absolutely destroy borthead arguments everytime. So just keep trying to tie the pink bow on the blood of the preborn. Keep on caring what your enemy has to say, instead of getting equipped, and getting into the fight to defeat them. Keep on kicking the feet out from under those who understand that fighting sometimes gets ugly. Keep on agreeing with your enemy, and stupidly exspect to ever bring this to an end. Keep on listening to the "pro-life" talking heads, who are nothing more than hirelings looking to make a living off of you in a perpetual PR war. If your faith can be shaken by anything I have done, then it is not a faith worth having. My faith is based on Christ alone, and yes, according to His own words, those who do not believe, and trust in Him as Lord, are going to hell. Christ did not come to bring unity, but to put us contrary to the world. I don't come to pro-life to be led by false prophets, be unified with compromised organizations, or to be feminized by jezabel feminist, whether they be pro-choice or pro-life. I come to this battle to fight for the womb child. And if you find yourself getting burned, don't stand in front of the flame thrower.

reply from: yoda

No, the last word is yours, and it is in the subtitle of the thread you started. It says "a FORMER prolifer"

reply from: nykaren

No, the last word is yours, and it is in the subtitle of the thread you started. It says "a FORMER prolifer"
You and your buddy FM are two of a kind. Always have to be right, no matter how ridiculous you sound. You take one word and use it to cancel out everything else I say. I've no interest in your opinion whatsoever. It's really rather amusing to see how that simple mind of yours works.

reply from: yoda

"Former prolifer" is two words, Karen, and by your own admission, that describes YOU.
Words DO mean something, Karen.

reply from: MC3

Let me again remind my friends on this forum that NYKAREN is not a "former" pro-lifer. She is a "never-was" pro-lifer. It has been sufficiently shown on various threads that this woman is today exactly what she has always been - a garden-variety pro-choice liar. And before one of you calls me on it, yes, I am aware that "pro-choice liar" is a redundant phrase.

reply from: yoda

Yes, that's been my own personal opinion too, for quite some time. But I find it fascinating that even though karen is willing to lie about other things, she will not go so far as to actually call herself a prolifer. There, she draws the line.
I think it's part of her strategy to try to discredit the whole prolife movement, and the word "prolife" in general. By shunning that term, I think she hopes to get some of us to turn away from it also.
It's just as well, really. I think the term prolife would've shunned her, had she not shunned it.

reply from: nykaren

"Former prolifer" is two words, Karen, and by your own admission, that describes YOU.
Words DO mean something, Karen.
"Former" is one word, dear. Yes, words DO mean something. I've used them over and over explaining my reasons for not being 100% pro-life and that I will not call myself prolife for those reasons. You prefer to ignore those. It's kinda like calling yourself a Christian if you aren't 100% a Christian. Or pro-choice if you're not 100%. Or an atheist if you believe in God "just a little". Of course, your mind is already made up - and you are always right, so I'm wasting my time.

reply from: nykaren

Ah, yes, definitely remind them that it's better to buy into the paranoia embraced by the inner circle here. Believing the truth about my daughter and Sam requires having to deal with it. Keeping your head in the sand is a whole lot easier. As is accusing me of lying and posing as other members and all the other ridiculous accusations you've made. No wonder the other side is winning.

reply from: MC3

Finally, NYKAREN said something that is not a lie. She is indeed correct when she says that the "other side" is winning. The good news is that, in her case, the "other side" is us!

reply from: coco

I can't imagine the position karen your daughter is in, it is NO doubt a TOUGH position, that I would not wish ANYONE !! I know that your daughter is in an EXTREME amount of pain both physically and mentally, and YOU believe that she should be granted an abortion to end both your daughter and granchilds suffering. Although, I personally cant judge your daughter or you, I CAN understand your daughter no longer wants to prolong the physical suffuring. Perhaps she could attend counsuling and the doctors give her medications that can at LEAST seadate her? Again I can understand the moral issue you face but the baby should not suffer due to the hand your grandchild was delt. I hope that your daughter and her family can find peace and I pray for them and your granchild.

reply from: AshMarie88

Karen, if you're a FORMER pro-lifer, you're not even less than 100% pro-life, you're not pro-life at all.

reply from: yoda

Ah, so you're a "former"? Is that anything like a "farmer"? It doesn't make much sense by itself, does it? But then, what else is new from you?
That's quite a relief to me, karen. But your math is a little off. If you're a "former prolifer", then you're not just "less than 100%", you're zero percent prolife. That sounds about right to me.

reply from: yoda

Give it up, coco, she told us weeks ago that it had all been "worked out".

reply from: nykaren

See now, Yoda, therein lies your problem, taking words out of context. That single word makes perfect sense if read in context, even more if you read the reason I use it. You're not capable of comprehending that, though. That's one of the ways you work, isn't it? Take just what you want to read or understand and use it for your own agenda. Quite pitiful that you find it necessary to do that, and to perpetuate your lies that way. Sure beats dealing with the truth, huh?

reply from: nykaren

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Let me tell you something, sir. I'm not a liar, it's you and others here who just want to ignore the truth, such as the fact that Sam was induced in a Catholic hospital and that the law in NY IS preventing women from receiving necessary medical treatment. Thank God the Catholic church and hospitals have compassion, and not just rhetoric, and their lawyers can see the difference between abortion and inducing for the sake of a mom's health and a family's desire to spend time with a LIVE baby. I'm not catholic but I will be forever grateful for the blessing they gave us the day Sam was born. Nurses, doctors, nuns - all of them were there for my daughter and her husband and for Sam. "Pro-life" that day meant celebrating the precious life of Sam and the blessing he was and always will be to this family.
It's a shame you aren't willing to help these women and their babies. Nope, you'd rather let the other side (pro-choice) help them. Sad, because, you need all the help you can get. And that's fine - keep calling me pro-choice. It's a complete lie, and one a lot of people here are intelligent enough to recognize. You really see issues like this and women like my daughter as a threat, don't you? If you didn't, you wouldn't bother to keep "warning" people here about me. You very seldom post otherwise. Making sure people see me as a "liar" is important to you, and the reason for that is quite obvious.

reply from: nykaren

Coco, Thanks so much for your kind words and understanding. Sam was delivered on July 7th after my daughter changed hospitals. The first hospital was being harrassed by prolifers and knows what happens if they cross them. The hospitals in my city are all owned by the same corporation, except for the Catholic hospitals. Because of that, the first doctors were powerless to go to another hospital and induce. Only by getting out of that network of hospitals were we able to get the help my daughter needed. She's regaining her health now but it will take some time. She's on paid disability from her job till she's able to go back to work, possible in October. She's still being treated for the intestinal problems related to the pregnancy. Unfortunately, she has ulcerative colitis so the pregnancy with no fluid around the baby caused many difficulties that could have been avoided if she'd been able to get the medical help she needed. But we are so thankful that when Sam finally WAS born, we had a precious 63 minutes with him. Thanks again for your kindness. Please keep posting like you've been doing lately. I know you take a lot of crap from some of these folks and they call you pro-choice just like they do me. I'm not, and neither are you. You've BEEN there, and know what it's like to deal with these issues in REAL life. That makes you an asset to the pro-life side. Continue to try and educate people about the real-life needs out there!

reply from: nykaren

Ashley, This statement and previous ones are a bit confusing about what you truly believe. In your own words....
6/25/07 . I don't believe in such a thing as "pro-life with exceptions" AT ALL.
8/14/07 KAREN... For gosh sakes, just answer the question.
Are you a FORMER pro-lifer or a "pro-lifer" with the exceptions?!?! They are NOT THE SAME and will never be the same!
So which are you?
<<<<<<<~
I've explained my pro-life with exceptions stand over and over, and you say I can't be that because there is no such thing. Then you say that I'm either a former prolifer or one with exceptions but they aren't the same. Sounds like you don't know quite know WHAT you believe!

reply from: MC3

On an earlier thread, your loopy story about Sam had been thoroughly exposed as a fraud. In your final post regarding this issue you stated, "Now, I'm done here, on this thread at least." making it clear that you were no longer going to be bringing it up. My reply was that only time would tell whether your claim to be leaving this subject behind was just another one of your many lies.
Now that you've picked back up where you left off, it seems apparent that I was right. Time has told.

reply from: 4given

Folks- can we please not devote anymore time, energy or reason to this happily buried topic? I have engaged myself enough in it, and do not desire to be trudged through the murky spoils left here.. and Coco- did you not have the interest or energy to address this topic during the appropriate time or in the appropriate thread? Unless you had a "simple need" to convey your heartfelt sympathies due to your own feelings of rejection? Just curious.

reply from: nykaren

Wrong again, sir. As usual, you've fabricated a "lie" where there isn't any. I have not posted to the original thread in response to the final insults and ignorance. I'm done there. I posted to THIS thread in response to another post, a post that had nothing whatsoever to do with my daughter's situation or Sam. Yoda immediately started referring to our previous discussion, which I had believed was finally ended. I'd stopped posting on the other thread, to give him and you and others the last word, which you all so desperately need. I kept my word. THOSE are the facts, anyone can see them by reading my posts. As soon as I post in this thread, Yoda starts with his harrassment again, then you pick up on it, then Ashley. Is that what I'm to expect whenever I post anywhere in this forum, on any thread?? I have no interest in discussing my daughter's situation or my use of the word "former", since you and your buddies prefer not to deal with reality, but if I'm attacked or asked questions, I will respond. If you don't want this issue brought up, talk to Yoda about it, not me. I'd much prefer to see a meaningful discussion on the subject of THIS thread, which was Coco's questions on why those Christian conservative Republicans opposed to abortion don't do more to help the needy? Perhaps YOU could answer that?

reply from: coco

I am sorry I dont understand your question.

reply from: faithman

Wrong again, sir. As usual, you've fabricated a "lie" where there isn't any. I have not posted to the original thread in response to the final insults and ignorance. I'm done there. I posted to THIS thread in response to another post, a post that had nothing whatsoever to do with my daughter's situation or Sam. Yoda immediately started referring to our previous discussion, which I had believed was finally ended. I'd stopped posting on the other thread, to give him and you and others the last word, which you all so desperately need. I kept my word. THOSE are the facts, anyone can see them by reading my posts. As soon as I post in this thread, Yoda starts with his harrassment again, then you pick up on it, then Ashley. Is that what I'm to expect whenever I post anywhere in this forum, on any thread?? I have no interest in discussing my daughter's situation or my use of the word "former", since you and your buddies prefer not to deal with reality, but if I'm attacked or asked questions, I will respond. If you don't want this issue brought up, talk to Yoda about it, not me. I'd much prefer to see a meaningful discussion on the subject of THIS thread, which was Coco's questions on why those Christian conservative Republicans opposed to abortion don't do more to help the needy? Perhaps YOU could answer that?
We will answere that, when ypou answered the question what do secular humanist socialist do to help besides force tax payers to give a free living to the lazy. Most of the prolifers I know are also very generous in giving and helping others in need. John staussle did a report to that fact as well. I have personally given food, clothes, and shelter to the homeless. We had hurrican victims in our house for 16 months. I regularly give young disatvantaged men work in my business, teach them basic construction, and provide them with tools. We have a little music group that plays nursing homes. I am on the ministers list at the county jail, and regularly send materials to prisnors. SSSOOOO what do you and COCO do for others besides gripe how the government doesn't do enough, and the hard working don't cater to the lazy enough? What do either of you do to help anyone?

reply from: nykaren

I'm not a secular humanist socialist, so I can't answer for them, and I'm not in favor of given anything to the lazy, but as a Christian conservative Republican who generally votes as such for lack of any better options at the moment, I do what I can to help others. I spend each Saturday at a nursing home visiting with the residents there, and I make and donate many items to that same home each year, including blankets, lap robes, crosses, etc. I crochet and donate winter hats and afghans to the homeless through our local city mission. I make prayer cloths to be sent to the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. I make burial gowns and donate for stillborn babies. I make and give away prayer shawls. I have studied Christian counseling and use those skills to help others whenever I have an opportunity to do so. I have corresponded regularly with many death row prisoners over the past 20 years and sent them Christian materials.
Any more questions??

reply from: yoda

And yet today, "prolife" means something so negative (to you) that you will not be identified with it...... and lucky for us, I say.

reply from: yoda

Yoda is always interested in knowing your "present status" (prochoice/prolife) , karen, so we will know which version of your story you are currently broadcasting.
However it was your dear friend coco, not I, who brought up your original hypothetical drama. I was never really interested in it in the first place.
Why don't you ask her not to bring it up?

reply from: nykaren

Yoda is always interested in knowing your "present status" (prochoice/prolife) , karen, so we will know which version of your story you are currently broadcasting.
However it was your dear friend coco, not I, who brought up your original hypothetical drama. I was never really interested in it in the first place.
Why don't you ask her not to bring it up?
You are the one who brought it up, dear, by asking about my "former pro-lifer" subtitle, obviously referring to the thread where that exists. So don't try to blame Coco. She wouldn't have posted on it, and I would obviously have had no reason to respond to her, if you had not brought it back up. You have some odd need to keep this subject alive, especially for someone who claims never to have been interested in the first place. For never having been interested, you sure have wasted a lot of time and space and meaningless chatter on it. And your "which version" comment is puzzling. There's only 1 version, other than the ones you and your buddies have fabricated out of nowhere.

reply from: yoda

Ah, so THAT'S how it works!
If I mention anything from that thread, then you MUST launch into a long speech about the hospitals, the prolifers, the doctors, the laws, etc., etc.... AMAZING!!
Well then, how about if I use a "code question" instead? Suppose I just ask you "How's the weather today?"....... (meaning are you still "not a prolifer"), will you STILL feel COMPELLED to launch into a long speech about the hospitals, the doctors, the prolifers, the laws, etc., etc., ad infinitum????
BTW, how's the weather today?

reply from: nykaren

And yet today, "prolife" means something so negative (to you) that you will not be identified with it...... and lucky for us, I say.
Nope, it still means the very same thing to me. You certainly do have a point though about the negativity of the pro-life movement (your words, not mine). With a few exceptions, the people who post here have so much paranoia and hatred and ignorance. Not exactly the positive sort of things that make people want to be associated with you, ya know?

reply from: nykaren

Ah, so THAT'S how it works!
If I mention anything from that thread, then you MUST launch into a long speech about the hospitals, the prolifers, the doctors, the laws, etc., etc.... AMAZING!!
Well then, how about if I use a "code question" instead? Suppose I just ask you "How's the weather today?"....... (meaning are you still "not a prolifer"), will you STILL feel COMPELLED to launch into a long speech about the hospitals, the doctors, the prolifers, the laws, etc., etc., ad infinitum????
BTW, how's the weather today?
Long speech?? I simply responded to Coco's post. That's a no-no now? Would you maybe like me to run my responses past you first, to obtain your approval? In case you've forgotten, you had already made a nasty response to Coco about things having been "taken care of". Considering that, it seemed she deserved an honest answer to her comments and questions. Come to think of it, it wasn't directed to you in the first place, was it, and it wasn't at all your place to answer it. Like I said, you were the one who had to start harrassing me by bringing up the former thread. If you don't want to hear it, don't bring it up. It's really quite simple, you should be able to manage it. Now can we be done with this, or do you plan to continue with your childish behavior by posting another of your "cute" responses?

reply from: Banned Member

The fact of the matter is time and time again, it is the liberal agenda that has supported and protected abortion on demand, almost exclusively. But they would like to believe that if a pro-lifer so much as ties their shoes wrong, they are fallible and their position on abortion is wrong.
Abortion is murder.
Abortion is murder.
Abortion is murder.

reply from: yoda

coco's post? What happened to "YOU are the one who brought it up"?????
Is it no longer my fault?????
BTW, how's the weather today?

reply from: Wrench

Call it what you want; sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken. "Pro-life with exceptions" is abortion-choice. If you think that there are circumstances under which a woman should be able to decide whether her child lives or dies in her womb, you're abortion-choice. Hell, even most self-proclaimed abortion-choicers object to abortion under certain circumstances. Karen, by your own admittance not one week ago, you said you did not call yourself pro-life because obviously you recognize the hypocrisy of being pro-life with exceptions:
All people want you to do is own up to what you said, rather than flip-flopping around what you actually believe - which is, apparently, that women should be able to kill their children if medical science says they're going to die anyway.

reply from: nykaren

All people want you to do is own up to what you said, rather than flip-flopping around what you actually believe - which is, apparently, that women should be able to kill their children if medical science says they're going to die anyway.
What exactly would you like me to own up to?? that I'm not 100% pro-life, only 95%? I've made that plain over and over. And I've very clearly stated that women have a right to have what you consider an abortion in certain types of cases which compose part of that other 5%. That's very clear and is not flip-flopping. I'm not 100% pro-life or 100% pro-choice. What's so hard to understand??

reply from: nykaren

coco's post? What happened to "YOU are the one who brought it up"?????
Is it no longer my fault?????
BTW, how's the weather today?
Try and follow the sequence of posts here, Yoda - YOU brought it up and resulted in Coco's post, to which I responded. Got it now??? But hey, I guess your post answers my question as to whether you can actually act like an adult and stop obsessing with this. How long do you plan to go on and on with this ridiculous behavior of yours? It does get tiring, to put it mildly. Any time you're ready to move on, that would be great...maybe you could respond to Coco's original reason for this thread?

reply from: Wrench

All people want you to do is own up to what you said, rather than flip-flopping around what you actually believe - which is, apparently, that women should be able to kill their children if medical science says they're going to die anyway.
What exactly would you like me to own up to?? that I'm not 100% pro-life, only 95%? I've made that plain over and over. And I've very clearly stated that women have a right to have what you consider an abortion in certain types of cases which compose part of that other 5%. That's very clear and is not flip-flopping. I'm not 100% pro-life or 100% pro-choice. What's so hard to understand??
Being "kind of" pro-life is like being "kind of" pregnant or "kind of" dead. You either are or you're not. If you think that in some cases mothers should be able to kill their children via abortion, you are abortion-choice. That is the very definition of so-called "pro-choice." Cluck all you want, you're not pro-life if you think that any child, even one out of a thousand, deserves to have its rights taken away before it's able to have a say in the matter.

reply from: nykaren

All people want you to do is own up to what you said, rather than flip-flopping around what you actually believe - which is, apparently, that women should be able to kill their children if medical science says they're going to die anyway.
What exactly would you like me to own up to?? that I'm not 100% pro-life, only 95%? I've made that plain over and over. And I've very clearly stated that women have a right to have what you consider an abortion in certain types of cases which compose part of that other 5%. That's very clear and is not flip-flopping. I'm not 100% pro-life or 100% pro-choice. What's so hard to understand??
Being "kind of" pro-life is like being "kind of" pregnant or "kind of" dead. You either are or you're not. If you think that in some cases mothers should be able to kill their children via abortion, you are abortion-choice. That is the very definition of so-called "pro-choice." Cluck all you want, you're not pro-life if you think that any child, even one out of a thousand, deserves to have its rights taken away before it's able to have a say in the matter.
Very good! That's why I've been saying all along I no longer am a pro-lifer. Obviously, the same argument works the other way as well. Being "kind of" pro-CHOICE is like being "kind of" pregnant or "kind of" dead. So by your own definition, I'm neither pro-life or pro-choice. And that's exactly what I've been saying all along. You have a problem with that? I sure don't see why. I have a right to my opinion and beliefs, just as you do. And as a writer myself, I'm surprised you have such a problem understanding such a simple concept.

reply from: coco

"Former prolifer" is two words, Karen, and by your own admission, that describes YOU.
Words DO mean something, Karen.
YES I THINK THAT IS YOU YODA!!!

reply from: yoda

Oh, NOW I get it..... when I ask YOU about your "status".... that FORCES coco to regurgitate a whole bunch of stuff from your original story, right?
So, I should let coco in on the "code question", right?
Okay, coco, when I ask karen "how's the weather", I'm really asking her if she's prochoice or prolife today, so there's no need for you to post a lot of stuff about karen's daugher, her hospital, her doctors, the laws, and all that other stuff....... get it?
Now, karen.................. how IS the weather today???

reply from: yoda

Give it up, coco...... she's already copped a plea...... she's confessed... she's stated clearly.. for the first time..... SHE SAYS SHE IS NOT PROLIFE!!
Give it up, coco.

reply from: nykaren

Oh, NOW I get it..... when I ask YOU about your "status".... that FORCES coco to regurgitate a whole bunch of stuff from your original story, right?
So, I should let coco in on the "code question", right?
Okay, coco, when I ask karen "how's the weather", I'm really asking her if she's prochoice or prolife today, so there's no need for you to post a lot of stuff about karen's daugher, her hospital, her doctors, the laws, and all that other stuff....... get it?
Now, karen.................. how IS the weather today???
You are, if nothing else, consistently childish in your posts. You most likely consider that a compliment.

reply from: nykaren

Give it up, coco...... she's already copped a plea...... she's confessed... she's stated clearly.. for the first time..... SHE SAYS SHE IS NOT PROLIFE!!
Give it up, coco.
Where've you been, old man? That's the same thing I've been saying all along. I'm neither 100% pro-life or 100% pro-choice. It's not a black and white issue.

reply from: yoda

What, no more long-winded explanations of how I "forced" you to rehash your old grudge against prolifers?
Are you giving up, just like that? Okay, I admit it, I twisted your arm.
How's that?

reply from: yoda

You're not ANY percent prolife...... and I seriously doubt you ever were.

reply from: nykaren

What, no more long-winded explanations of how I "forced" you to rehash your old grudge against prolifers?
Are you giving up, just like that? Okay, I admit it, I twisted your arm.
How's that?
This isn't about you, Yoda, and never has been. Why on earth would you think that? Giving up? You didn't "force" me to do anything, I never said that at all. I've no idea what you think I'm giving up on. You persist in these childish posts and I've no idea why, but it's really getting old.

reply from: yoda

Hmm...... all the accusations you've made against me in the last several posts of yours, maybe?
But hey, I'm guilty, I made you bring up that crap again, I forced you to do it....
BTW, how's the weather?

reply from: nykaren

You're not ANY percent prolife...... and I seriously doubt you ever were.
Well, that's your opinion, and I'll take that for what's it's worth.

reply from: nykaren

Hmm...... all the accusations you've made against me in the last several posts of yours, maybe?
But hey, I'm guilty, I made you bring up that crap again, I forced you to do it....
BTW, how's the weather?
I've responded to your posts, which were out of line here to begin with. Why don't you stick to the reason for this thread and answer that question rather than attacking me? You're the one who is determined to keep this going. I've attempted to end it repeatedly and still you persist in your harrassment. Is this how you get your kicks, Yoda. Man, that is SAD.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, see.. that's the thing..... you always respond and then complain that I keep responding. The way to end a controversy is to NOT respond... but then you wouldn't have the last word, would you?
BTW, how's the weather today?

reply from: nykaren

Yeah, see.. that's the thing..... you always respond and then complain that I keep responding. The way to end a controversy is to NOT respond... but then you wouldn't have the last word, would you?
BTW, how's the weather today?
For goodness sake, Yoda, would you grow up? As I said on the other thread, you are welcome to the last word. And you had it there, remember? So...go ahead now and say something incredibly witty, and I will ignore it. I really don't have the time today to bother with you. I have a life.

reply from: yoda

And yet you keep on responding......
Speaking of today..... how's the weather today?

reply from: whydeath

Is it just me or was the last 2-3 pages a loopy loop roller coaster over and over and around and around.....seems like there is more or this happening then actual conversation about the topic at hand.

reply from: nykaren

You're right, and I apologize for once again having been taken in by Yoda's childish behavior. I should know better by now than to even respond to his attacks. Talking to him is a total waste of time and energy. If he wants to continue, he'll be talking to himself, lol.

reply from: yoda

Apology accepted. How's the weather?

reply from: whydeath

YODAVATER!!!!! Don't ask about "the weather"!!!!!!!!!
BTW it is really nice here is sunny California. How about your weather Yodavater how is it your way?

reply from: yoda

Hey, I'm so glad you asked....... I'm 100% prolife all the way, all the time.... oh wait, you actually meant THE weather....
It's been bone dry here for months now, and for 30 days in a row above 90 degrees every day..... until today. We finally got a break in the high temps today, but it's still bone dry... the lakes are all way, way down, many people are hurting badly due to lack of seasonal business and bad agricultural conditions. Strange, isn't it, so many floods just a few states over, and we're in the middle of a historic drought.
Anyway, thanks for asking!

reply from: prolifebychoice

Where do I begin? This is my first post on my first venture into this site. I've never been in a chat room or been on a site with this format and now I think I know why.
First, to answer what I believe this line question is. Why does it look like the prolife side doesn't care about the women and how they would support a child if they had it.
It looks that way because most prolife people who do care aren't jumping up and down for recognition. I also think that it's a little like cats and dogs. They aren't natural enemies they just have different ways of greeting that don't mesh. It's the defference between giving a man a fish and teaching a man to fish. I personally know that the majority of legitimate prolife people are very involved with helping those who need it all around.
As for "do we really want a world where all those aborted babies are alive" you have to keep in mind that since the 1973 legalization of abortion Promescuity has risen drastically therby rising pregnancies. The real question is would there have been as many conceptions if it hadn't been legalized.
Now, I believe Wrench posted this quote/comment
The ultimate goal of the pro-life movement should not be to make abortion illegal, but to create a society in which abortion is simply not an option. Because, ironically, that's the only way to make it illegal anyway.
Ironically, the same excuses and ideas used to keep abortion legal are the exact same ones used to try and keep slavery legal. Observe
The ultimate goal of the Freedom movement should not be to make slavery illegal, but to create a society in which slavery is simply not an option. Because, ironically, that's the only way to make it illegal anyway.
I submit to those who are pro abortion that I would gladly concede that abortion should be legal for any reason, through all stages of pregnancy regardless of any prolife supositions if you can do one thing.
Prove to me scientifically, logically and biologically that the unborn child is not human. Let's stick the the facts and have a real debate. I believe what I believe until the TRUTH tells me otherwise.

reply from: Banned Member

Oh right Coco... women kill their babies because of the uncharitable natures of the pro-life people... feeble, very very feeble argument! Pathetic!

reply from: coco

OBVIOUSLY you havent been poor and had a child so YOU wouldnt KNOW what people like me go through!! YOU cant talk about something that you have PERSONALLY been through, so keep your ignorence to YOURSELF!!!

reply from: yoda

OBVIOUSLY you havent been poor and had a child so YOU wouldnt KNOW what people like me go through!! YOU cant talk about something that you have PERSONALLY been through, so keep your ignorence to YOURSELF!!!
You failed to address the point, coco.
Since you made it personal, and about YOU, did you abort (or feel tempted to abort) because of the "uncharitable nature of pro-life people"?

reply from: coco

no they she didnt address it to me she said "women kill their babies because of the uncharitable natures of the pro-life!" and you know what she is TOTALLY right I know thise girl that JUST got an abortion because she has a job with NO health benifits couldnt recieve medicade because she made TOO much money at only ,$13K a year, and didnt want to go into 10K worth of debt so she paid her $600 and got it "taken care of". I would tell you right know thier are THOUSANDS of women in THAT same kind of situation. IT IS NOT COMMON!!

reply from: prolifebychoice

Hello? Is this thing on? Are any of you interested in addressing my question or just snipping at each other all day? As for not having the ability to get insurance with only 13,000 a year income I wonder what country your friend lives in because that gets automatic ins in any state.
Let's see, when I became pregnant with my son, before I knew about it my husband was put on disability and neede a heart cathederization (sp?). Then I found out I was pregnant. A week later I miscarried. A week after that I found out I was still pregnant because there were twins. The the transmission died in the car. (keep in mind we were only grossing about 30,000 a year). The the engine blew. Just after that got fixed, 2 weeks before I was due to deliver, my husband was the last prounion employee fired. (It took them 3 years to come up with something). This was an immediate cut off of insurance. 2 days later I had insurance, food stamps and WIC. I'm not a big proponent for governmant subsidies but I'm not prone to abusing systems. I used it for what it should be. A hand up. 3 weeks later my husband had a new job but I did not lose the health care I needed and niether did my son. Did I forget to mention that 2 weeks after my son was born our basement started leaking and causing mold? There was more but this should do. By all accounts any prochoice person, let alone a clinic councelor, would have told me I needed to have an abortion. Tell that to my son.
Aren't you glad your mother chose life?

reply from: Banned Member

OBVIOUSLY you havent been poor and had a child so YOU wouldnt KNOW what people like me go through!! YOU cant talk about something that you have PERSONALLY been through, so keep your ignorence to YOURSELF!!!
I am 34 years old. I grew up poor, in a poor town. My own father has never acknowledged me, or even met me. I was raised by a mother who was only 20 years old when she had me. She raised me quite happily without even so much a single child support payment from my biological father. I was not expected, and she was not married. No health care, no college, and I never traveled more than 60 miles from the town I grew up in. My mother never for an instant considered abortion as abortion was illegal and she was a life loving Catholic. I was the only child she ever had.
Abortion was made legal less than a month after I was born.
Your support of women that kill their children in their womb is the only ignorance that you are qualified to speak about. You would rather rip children from their mothers womb bloody and mutililated and call it compassion. Yours is a very sick sense of compassion.

reply from: yoda

Read my post again, I said that YOU made it personal, and YOU did.
So now you're blaming prolifers for someone being poor? What else are prolifers to blame for, bad weather?
You just hate prolifers in general, don't you?

reply from: coco

Actually I live in the state of Indiana and take the questionire for yourself put income of 3, make up some names, and mark all the questions on disablity no, put for the income that you make $1000 a month, and you pay $800 a month for rent with utilites included. You will notice at the end that you are eligiable for foodstamps and your KIDS would be eligiable for insurence, but YOU, well you are SH#$ out of luck, NO INSURENCE FOR YOU MY FRIEND YOU MAKE TO MUCH MONEY AT ONLY $12,000 a YEAR!!! Like I said go check for yourself!!!Here is more taken from a website:
Medicaid Financial Eligibility
When a person with a mental or physical disability applies for Indiana's Medicaid Disability program eligibility is based on more than disability. The person's income must be below a specified maximum. For unmarried persons, the current maximum is $603 a month. If the person is married, their combined income can be a maximum of $904.
Assets must also be below a specified maximum. For an unmarried individual, the current maximum is $1,500. If the person is married, the current maximum is $2,250 for the couple.
http://www.in.gov/qualcheck/LoginServlet?Application=inscreening

reply from: yoda

So what is all that supposed to mean, coco? That poor people have a "moral right to kill babies", just because they're poor?

reply from: coco

no what I am saying is that perhaps everyone should have insurence so that maybe could save a few kids, perhaps? I know it would have saved that baby and no I think children should be kept and that would should have but for the hospital bill perhaps they could have made a contract that the adoptive babys parents could pay the hospital expense.

reply from: prolifebychoice

Coco, what you need to do is call the agency. Sure, if I just plug in a family of 3 and such it's going to show the kids eligable but not me. BUT...a "pregnant" women does receive insurance up to her last post birth check up. Also, while pregnant, the unborn child counts as a family member. Go figure? After birth the child remains insured. In reality almost every person, citizen or not, is eligable for some type of insurance. If you are denied for any reason or they try to inflate your quotes their are ways to get insured by the government now. Research shows that most uninsured people are eligable but just don't apply. If at first you don't succeed call back and talk to a different person.

reply from: yoda

Right. And in an ideal world, everyone would have insurance, have their own home, a good job, and savings in the bank. But we live in the real world, where people kill their babies for many reasons, not just financial ones. And that is not the fault of prolifers either. But according to the title of this thread, we prolifers are to blame.
So I guess you think it really is the fault of prolifers that babies are being killed everyday, right?

reply from: coco

YEA YODA & its like saying in the REAL world abortion would NEVER go away it MAY be outlawed one day but people will still do it so the "movement is just a waste of time !

reply from: AshMarie88

OBVIOUSLY you havent been poor and had a child so YOU wouldnt KNOW what people like me go through!! YOU cant talk about something that you have PERSONALLY been through, so keep your ignorence to YOURSELF!!!
Not to be rude but I know what it's like to be "poor" and have had a child (not me personally)... And to be poor and have had an abortion (again not me personally).
Not all opinions are ignorance.

reply from: AshMarie88

I work full time and have NO insurance. I suppose it'd be okay for me to go abort my child (if I was ever to be pregnant within the next 5 months altho I will not be) just because of the situation I'd happen to be in...

reply from: AshMarie88

Coco... you've been sounding pro-abortion-choice a lot lately. Why do you claim to be pro-life?

reply from: faithman

AAAAH young one, you grow wise. Secular humanist socialist will sell the pre-born out in a heart beat. She would have us all dependant on government for everything, and everybody a victim. And if them poor women have to many.... well.. you know... the A word kicks in.

reply from: lukesmom

HMMM, I was a stay at home mom of 2 and just delivered my 3rd when I found out we had no insurance; due to an insurance scam. All our medical bills from the past year had not been paid, including all my maternaty and labor and delivery bills. My husband had expensive tests done due to cardiac and kidney disease. We were SWAMPED and uninsurable with 3 kids! 1&1/2 years later we were still trying to pay these bills. some companies took $5 a month toward the bill. It took us 6 yrs to finally pay everything off. Anyway 1&1/2 years after losing insurance, we had an oops. Medicaid paid, not only for all my maternity and labor and delivery, but my medical cost for an additional 3 months and our 3 youngest kids for and additional year. Our oldest was 6 and Medicaid would only pay for 5 and younger. If you have no insurance, HMO's and hospitals have "slush" funds so mothers can deliver healthy babies. NO ONE in the US HAS to have an abortion due to lack of funding for medical care. It is as simple as asking for assistance so "enough already with the excuses".

reply from: coco

YOU GUYS ARENT GETTING WHAT I AM SAYING! I am not pro abort I am not saying women with no insurence should get abortions, I am saying SOME of the causes of abortions are because women have no insurence, lukesmom, untill you stated about this "hush" money I have never heard of such programs. WHat I am saying is that you need a wider view of the spectrum, SOME women get abortions due to not having avalible programs brought to thier attention, so people should educate themselves so they could use this as a tactic for ending SOME abortions.

reply from: lukesmom

AHHHH, I get it!!! I love the "hush" funds because hospitals do not advertise this. This money is used for all kinds of different "hard cases" but it is there. ANYBODY who has no insurance SHOULD tell their dr and nurses at each appt or hospital visit, no matter what that appt/visit is for. These are the people that can get you started finding funding or charging less if anything. I have seen drs "write off" charges for pts. I have purposefully marked lower charges for pts without insurance. Dr's office also have free samples they can hand out to anyone who needs them. But first they have to know and they CAN'T know unless they are told. If a person wants the help, it is there. That is why pregnancy counciling centers are so useful. Unfortunantly "prolife" has gotten a bad name as judgemental, uncaring religious zealots. That is why the name calling and "you are going to hell" mentality is counter productive to the prolife cause. I have seen some amazing results when nonjudgemental compassion and straightforwardness is used. What I have found is that most undecided women want is compassion, truthful, realistic information and space to make a decision.
If you have a pregnant single mom of 4 with no insurance and little income, you better be able to provide free medical care AND a way to help feed and clothe the whole family. Seems like a big task until you are able to put all the pieces in place from several sources. Where there is a will, there is a way; just don't see much "will" these days.

reply from: yoda

Murder will never go away either, so having laws against it are a waste of time too, right?

reply from: prolifebychoice

Yodavater, I think you're on to something here. Maybe we should do away with all laws that haven't completely done away with the crime, like stealing. People still do that. And what's a little lieing and purgery between friends?
I am really rather tired of the "everybody's doing it" excuse. I don't even let my 9 years old get away with that.
As for why are prolifers against simple needs. They aren't! The majority of Prolifers are Christian in some way. The majority of all charities in this country were started/still run by Christians. We're just against requiring forms in triplicate and having to pay 10 people to get what's left into the hands of those who need it. One thing I've noticed is that conservative (especailly Christian) charities are very vocal about what they have to offer and even advertise. Liberal and government organizations tend to keep it hush hush and you have to know somebody who knows somebody who knows something. Conservative and or Christian charities not only offer help now but offer information and help to find solutions to the problems you're facing. On the other hand, everything I've seen come out of the liberal and or government camp gives the hand out but no realistic solutions for change.
The socialist mentallity is all about making people dependent upon the government so the government has control of the people. When the people have no will, there is no will of the people.

reply from: yoda

Agreed. It's been my observation that prolifers in general are the most generous and compassionate people I've ever been around.
I think the author of this thread has confused prolifers with some political group that has no connection to the real prolife movement.

reply from: Vikinggoddess

As a mother let me help you with this. My parents taught me some good common sense rules to live by.
1.) Control your sexual urges! If not you could have someone call you mama!
2.) Work for what you want and save up for it. Don't spend what you don't have!
3.) If someone gives you something give something back! This can be in goods or services.
4.) TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR ACTIONS! You make a mistake you own up to it and make it better.
Now I believe even someone like you can understand these simple country rules of life. You see, these days city folks are taught that government should take care of all their needs instead of being taught to do it for themselves. It does no good to envy the fortunes of another. You have to make your own way and that starts about the time of puberty. Then you have to start making life decisions. I do not want to take what I have worked so hard to have and give it up to someone who did not plan ahead. I do not believe in Communism or Socialism. They make people lazy. Just read Gov. Bradfords diary of the first settlement at Jamestown where the puritans tried your way and it failed miserably.
You could have done what I did and join the military. You can do that if you have children. You can also stop being a victim and seeing yourself as helpless. Go back to college and get a better education and start to make things better for yourself and family. Folks who want charity often are not willing to go and help themselves they would rather just have the rest of us hard working stiffs give them money and feel sorry for them. Enough is enough! Go ask the Russians what your system did for them! Go ask the Chinese!

reply from: Vikinggoddess

AMEN AMEN and AMEN!!!!!

reply from: DocQuack

Bah. I sure screwed up that post! :-)

reply from: DocQuack

RE: LIBERALSLIKECHRIST.ORG
"In similar fashion confusion ought to be avoided over the meaning of the key expression "human being". While it is obvious that there is a "being" from the moment of conception, and the entity in question is "human" (as opposed to some other species), Pro-Life people often overlook the fact that the expression "human being" normally means something more, i.e. "human person". Although a human breast is both a "being" and "human", it would obviously be foolish of anyone to argue that this human part is therefore a "human being", and that "aborting" its connection with its human host would be tantamount to murder. Yet that is the way some Pro-Life people argue about the contents of a woman's womb.
the boundaries of the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution. They believe that freedom of religion entitles American citizens to live by their own conscience, rather than that of others. this debate is all about laws, politics and/or government.
Do Pro-Life Americans who want to enshrine their view of abortion into law really believe in "Freedom of Religion", or do they only claim to believe in it to the extent that it protects them? How can Americans say in one breath that they prize the 1st amendment of our country's Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in the next argue that our government should make illegal a practice which others believe is moral ? "
....In a nutshell-- a very nutty shell -- all that's basically saying that it is your religion and Free Will to gobble up babies because your religion does not consider them people yet or even with a soul that has a right to live; That we as decent Americans do not want ancient pagan witchcraft ways of baby-gobbling to dominate our secular society. It's saying that your religion of Murder and human butchery is to be socially acceptable, acceptable under watered down b.s. "Christianity", and you are trying to make a murderous baby-killer of Our Lord. Trying to make that the agenda of our Constitution, too.
This is not a Christian or American page at all. It is straight from Hell. It is the Devil's attempt to screw with the minds of the sheep through clever and inept twisting of Scripture.
I have only one thing to say to that and to those voices in your head latched deeply to your soul:
Crux Sancti Patris Benedicti.
Crux Sacra Sit Mihi Lux.
Nunquan Draco Sit Mihi Dux.
Vade Retro Satana!!!!!!!!!
Nunquan Suade Mihi Vana!!!!!!!!!
Sunt Mala Que Libas.
Ipse Venana Bibas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Choke on it down in Hell.

reply from: coco

Well from what I understand I side more with the left theology then the right! I think that the left is not "godless" at all, they just REFUSE to beleve to SHOVE thier ideology down people throats. I think the RIGHT wants to ignore all the other religious beliefs of EVERY citizen of this country that is NOT christian which is not right!!! If you want a TOTAL christian state go back to england, review history one of the reasons why pilgrams came over here was to escape religous tyrany. 2 it must be nice being so perfect not making ANY mistakes, FYI some are born into their situations and are WORKING to get out of them by going to school AND work so what is wrong with giving a HELPING hand. NOT EVERYONE ON WELFARE IS LAZY, ETC!! Anyway how much do you people think people on welfare get??? I got $288 a month, HARDLY enough to pay rent, utilites, gas, etc. You know I hate to stigmatize but you people are sure living up to the "idea of the right" being so self righteous and standing on your "holyer then thou pedastole". Most of the politians of the right cut the services that MOST of these babies that YOU AND I want to save cut the NEEDED services that these BABIES are going to NEED!!! That is an oxymoron, save the unborn but disregaurd the babies that were just born, and take the money that was used to pay for these services to the rich ??? REDICULUS!! FYI, not everyone beleves in christ, not everyone live the "perfect" life then MOST of you live, SHOW SOME COMPASSION FOR THE LESS FORTUNATE you know the ones that are trying to change their life around, isnt that what christ taught? ANd before you start with the stories of your personal trimphs and tribulations we ALL deal with things diffrently, some are quicker to recover then others, AS LONG as we come out of these experinces learning a lesson and help to deter others from making the same mistakes THAT at counts!!

reply from: yoda

What does any of that have to do with abortion, coco?
Oh wait, I forgot..... you don't care about abortion, do you?

reply from: AshMarie88

Welfare, abortion, silly stereotypes... 3 of a liberal's favorite things.

reply from: DocQuack

Coco,
First, sorry I confused you with that Leftist Christian organization. Meant to apologize earlier, but forgot.
Second, I am all for Welfare and Social Services programs to infants! I think mothers who keep their infants and don't abort them should be supported by the state and our tax dollars.
I think, if you're pregnant and single, the country should provide you with financial incentive to keep that baby and give it up for adoption if you don't want it.
I think, if you are pregnant by accident and don't want to carry your baby, the country should give you a technology program by which the infant can be safely extracted from you (without surgery) and then incubated to full infant. That the country and Welfare system should even pay you for that. Incentives of all forms. Cash, cash, cash for keeping your baby away from abortion. Cash, cash, cash for keeping your baby as a single mom. Yes, Welfare checks bumbed up per baby you keep as a single mom. Whether married, unmarried, or not....you should get more $$ for making babies because our national population is declining. But, you should get more money if married; Lesser money if just shacked up. Considerably more than welfare in any case.
I truly want to give you money!! Money, money, money!! But, my Conservatives and Christians don't want to give it to you from their pockets. That's entirely true. You are correct, indeed.
But, I would gladly have that given to you if the politicians seriously overhauled the Social Security and Welfare system to eliminate abuses -- particularly by illegal immigrants and non-citizens who don't even bother to get past Green Card status. For the American citizen only should the public benefits be applied.
And where do we get those dollars?
1) By the rampant drilling in Alaska for oil. Oil money, oil money, oil money.
2) By the rampant drilling offshore in California; Off Florida; Everywhere there's block gold to suck right up and apply to saving babies! To hell with the environment because BABIES ARE GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT!! :-) BABIES ARE AN ENDANGERED SPECIES!!!
3) I say we bring the troops home right now and end this war. Then, we nuke the entire Mid-East wherever they're uppity if only to lower my price of gas. We send the troops back into secure those oil fields, establish bases, and all that plunder of the Mid East and destruction of Islam....we transfer to putting oodles more money in your pocket; More money in the American economy; More money in the schools; More money for every social program under the sun of Democrat desires. The homeless. The poor. All money, money, money and handouts for them, truly. I would gladly do that if the Democrats would only let us plunder the world more!
4) If they won't nuke all the MidEast, then I at least support this war if only for the sake of securing Central Asian oil and natural gas fields, and further plundering any form of oil in the region. And we need Alaskan and offshore drilling, too.
We're talking trillions of dollars in plunder there and I support Government feeding off of all that rather than just all these globalist corporations and fat cats. The purpose of war is supposed to be about liberation of the oppressed and plunder of thy enemy. The problem with American wars for decades now has been a failure to enjoy the plunder.
If I were your king, I would truly nuke all that MidEast and end our problem with Islam right now while buying off Russian and Chinese diplomatic protests over the matter. Carve it up and share the plunder with them.
As that oil money comes in, I would make sure the average single mom keeping her baby has at least a house (not just an apartment), a chicken in every pot, and a good car -- even a hybrid-electric -- in every garage. I'd want you to have Welfare checks closer to at least $2000/mos, some schooling stipend, and some bonus per baby kept. No questions asked. You have a baby in or out of wedlock and the country rewards you for it. Simple as that. All about buying babies here and total destruction of future Islamic ones.
As for illegal immigration, I'd round them all up as enemies of the state and sort them out. Guest Worker passes for those in non-competitive jobs with American citizens. Tossed back over the fence to Latin America for all else. Men, women, and children gunned down at the border for trying to cross because we cannot maintain national security without secure borders. From there, enhanced and sped up immigration and citizenship process for security-cleared and oath-taking migrants who meet a basic educational standard. We don't want the trash and criminals of the Third World, but migrants who at least try to read and write in English and who truly want to learn something about the country; People who want to live in America as Americans, not live here as proud Mexicans. If they have skill demonstrated or some aptitude that fills a vacuum (as a lot of these very smart Indian immigrants do), then work visas for them as an overhauled Government and Immigration program allows. If they don't meet basic standards, then some form of welcome program of required public or military service in exchange for citizenship.
Immigration is good. It holds up the American economy and real estate market. Drives up the price of houses by increasing demand. It is, yes, hypocritical for we Conservatives to want to lock off immigrants while, in many areas of the country, immigration is the only thing fueling home prices and equity gains due to population decline and also the dumb-down and laziness of our population and youth.
Basically, like a good Liberal, I propose throwing more and more money at the problem exactly as you'd like as a Liberal. I just want it to be from plundered oil money, not taken from my taxes WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.
That's my religious belief and everyone else who thinks otherwise intrudes upon it! :-) My minority religious view to things should also be considered.

reply from: DocQuack

"I think that the left is not "godless" at all, they just REFUSE to beleve to SHOVE thier ideology down people throats. I think the RIGHT wants to ignore all the other religious beliefs of EVERY citizen of this country that is NOT christian which is not right!!! If you want a TOTAL christian state go back to england, review history one of the reasons why pilgrams came over here was to escape religous tyrany."
....No, the Left is not all Godless. You are correct. They're just wishy washy on God in most cases. They're often filled with heathens, seculars, pagans of all forms, Wiccans, Satanists, Sodomites, you name it as their voting base. But, that's fine. It's a free country.
Next, remember, the Pilgrims were Christians who came here not really to escape tyranny but to make plunder in the New World. To kill Injuns. To acquire land. To grow fat and rich -- just like Spain's empire did all over the world. I know because I descend from Mayflower pilgrims who gladly plunder the American Indian. And I descend from Pacific savages plundered by the Spanish along with Spanish dons who grew fat in their regions. I come down from royal savages and servants of the Spanish crown, too. Had nothing to do with Christianity. It had to do with greed, gold, land, new opportunities; The spread of Christianity to heathen and pagan peoples.
To the Spanish Crown, it was rightfully horrible that all these human-sacrificing pagans should have so much gold while the empire needed their gold. The king and queen had their own people to look after; Christendom to spread; Civilization to spread; Civilization you enjoy today which doesn't include having your heart pulled out in sacrifice to the gods; Civilization and freedoms you enjoy in America which would not have been even allowed under pagan-savage-human-sacrificing rule. Had they and my own savage people spent more time building civilization rather than engaged in pagan follies, they might have put up a greater fight. But, that's just how it goes. Whitey had the best war toys and empire.
The price of an ounce of gold back then, in today's dollar, was not $400 to $500, it was the same as a few thousand -- something like $4000 to $8000 in value per ounce. Thing about that. Today, you wouldn't think about putting a bullet in some prancing around naked pagan's head for a mere 10 ounces of gold. To kill someone for not even enough to buy a new Toyota? That's silly. But, you step up the price and then it's a different story. Hmmm....enough to buy a condo? Enough to retire? Enough to feed your family back home? Enough to buy a pirate ship and plunder all the more? Enough to build a Spanish don's ranch, a church for God, schools for the pagan people, hospitals for their sickly, and galleons of treasure chests back to your king and queen. All for Baby Jesus and Holy Mary; All in conquest the Great Dragon and his pagan, serpent, human-sacrificing people. Well, hell, I'd be the first in line to shoot them, too! :-)
My Spanish "pilgrims" (and your own origins, I suspect) didn't come here to escape tyranny. No, we came here to plunder. We came here to spread tyranny. It's only these, naive, Anglos of all that WASP (Whitey Protestant) culture that actually came to the Americas with a little more missionary well-meaning. These idiots actually negotiated with the Injuns. Hah!! Can you believe that? Typical dummy Whitey. You know where it comes from? It's because we Catholics always have the option of Confession. Sin, sin, sin. Plunder, plunder, plunder on Friday. Confession on Saturday. Off to Church like a saint on Sunday. The Protestants do it, too, but they tend to spend more time reading Scripture and digesting it. Most the Catholics I know don't even bother with Confession. This little church I go to has hundreds of people. On Saturday confessions, there's only about 3 little old ladies there. So, basically, they're all sinless. All taking the Eucharist free of sin. All just perfect, goody goody Catholics. No need for the sacraments and UNLIKE THE PROTESTANTS, most aren't even bothering to confess their sins direct to God. All just happy goo goo Christianity. I suspect it was much like that while plundering the Americas, too.
There was no escape from Church tyranny for the Anglo Pilgrim. They came over here with their various cults trying to establish tyranny in many places or to at least live free like the Amish. They came here to enforce their will over the existing inhabitants of the land, and rightfully so. You wouldn't have a thing you have today if they didn't. You'd be cooking meals for your husband and many children daily among your tee pee. You'd be gutting buffalo daily with a stone knife. You'd grow bored with no TV. You wouldn't be on MySpace chatting with people, certainly. You'd be sitting around a campfire and having fun -- worshiping as you please -- but that's it. You'd be at war with other tribes. Why should Whitey have put up with all that next door when he has made better use of the land? Half these hispanics crying over the sins of Whitey forget that they come from the White-Spanish empire that plundered just like Protestant Whitey and all the worse.
And do you think for a minute that the Liberal agenda isn't about forcing their pagan religion upon we Christians?
Earth Day paganism isn't my religion.
Wicca isn't my religion and I have a right not to have my children exposed to that in the schools. I have a right not to have my children taught by jackass, elitist, college flunkie twits who barely make "C" grades that their religion must be tolerant of all other religions. To hell it should! Islam isn't my religion and their Allah is not my God. Dancing around a Pentagram isn't my religion. Communing with the earth spirits isn't my religion. I have a right not to have that pagan crap forced upon me. I have a right not to have the atheist's drivel forced upon me, either.
This country was founded by Masonic Deists of somewhat of a Christian leaning along with Protestant and Catholic Christians. That's at the very bare minimum a requirement for a general belief in God, not paganism. A belief in a good Creator at the very least. "One nation under God" on our currency mandated; Prayers and Pledge of Allegiance required to a general God in the public schools.
That's the bare bones American religion. The culture was predominantly Christian-Protestant of many churches; Various Christian cult groups they were seeking escape from the tyranny of European Catholicism and King Henry's Protestantism. They weren't Godless people; Just goofy Christians. Catholics flocked to MARY-LAND. Protestants flocked elsewhere. Angry Indians needing to be slain at the borders. Peace treaties to be made. Yeah, I think the Indian was screwed and should have some reparations to this day. He's got money laundering casinos already, tax benefits, welfare, free schooling, and, again, I say we give him more $$$$$$$$$ from plundered Islamic oil.
...The Christian empire is simply dealing with a new form of savage these days. That's all. If the moslems settle down, they can live in peace with us. If they don't, I say we nuke and eradicate them just like has been done with the Indians of the Americas and everywhere else Spain conquered. We are a global, Christian empire and the United States is simply a predominantly Goofy Christian/ quasi-secular nation and culture within that and has become an empire herself.
To make it all good, both Christianity and American culture need to find their sanity again. It's starts with no longer killing AMERICAN babies and holding true to the original dream of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness to all citizens and especially the most innocent and helpless. If you cannot do that as a society, these selfish, twit People aren't ever going to give a damn about you, the poor, or the freedoms of anyone in the world. They don't care because they live for themselves. It's all about me, me, me and I, I, I. It's all about material things and selfish wants. The dream of Liberty has faded from freedom for everyone and the slaves and conquered Indians, too, to just a kind of bogus "Freedom" peddled to the world.
You're right: it is Conservative, Christian, and also Secular hypocrisy. Nothing is more important than defense of the most innocent and helpless of human life. Until that is an example for people to live by; Until we have "tolerance" and "Justice" for the most innocent and helpless of human beings.....there won't ever be true tolerance and Justice for any minority of your dreams. Simple as that.
The secular-humanistic society "under God" that is America is not supposed to be pagan. Our Founding Fathers did not establish her to be that. They made her to tolerate paganism and witchcraft to some degree, but that's a lie in itself because Pilgrims were burning witches and killing Indians, certainly. Meanwhile, the Occult enjoyed deep entrenchment in secret among our Founding Fathers. But, all the same, the show on the surface and the foundations of the republic are supposed to be monotheistic with attention to a good Creator. Prejudice toward Christmas, indeed.
And, no, I don't have to go back to England. We just have to keep all these damn pagans and heathens from trying to rule the country and ENFORCE THEIR VILE RELIGIONS UPON US. They only have that opportunity because we have allowed them such freedoms and have stopped burning them at the stake!! They're a minority group. We, as tolerant Christians of America, allow them to live in freedom here because that is Justice. But, a small minority of godless devils has no right to dictate their pagan religions to the majority of montheistic, Judeo-Christian and Freemasonic culture here -- especially where their religion is all about baby-gobbling and murder.

reply from: Vikinggoddess

Lets hear it for all my wonderful pagan friends who happen to be much more compassionate than most christians. Just because you are a pagan does not mean that we don't care about the innocents.

reply from: yoda

I know some atheists who show more compassion than many who call themselves "Christian". In fact there are some dedicated prolife atheists around, and I'd trust them over a proabort "Christian" any day.
The bottom line is....... decent people don't kill babies. And that's just plain, ordinary common sense.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

:gift;When you ask what this question has to do with the morality of "killing babies",please rethink your response to "Why do prolifers oppose simple needs"?Your argument is a fallacy.This society, or culture (or lack of) creates the conditions needed for abortion. Abortion is act of violence toward the women, as well as the unborn. Abortion is the symptom, not the disease.When the needs of the poor and needy are met (the least of these) it is quite possible that abortion will be a thing of the past. Also, sir, mam whoever you are-you sound way to high and mighty,and you take on a condeming tone of voice when you speak in terms of "killing babies" How many children died in Iraq when the stealth bombers dropped their bombs on a civilian poulation? Its ok to kill moslem babies , but not white ones??Is there some imaginary line where the killing stops and life begans?

reply from: ronin82

Ugh. Please don't tell me about the "socialist agenda". There are many forms of socialism, bureaucratic state socialism is only one of them. The general idea of people before profit is far more Christian and ethical (think pre-Christian Aristotle here) than the unlimited acquisition of personal wealth. I support an economy based on worker-owned and run enterprises. A dignified standard of living that enables a couple to raise children should be a constitutional guarantee, a basic human right. And as I hope you all know, I am very pro-life.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

your arguments, however brilliant,require some reckoning with the facts doc.Not all native american tribes, pacific islanders, so. americans and the various peoples that you mentioned are neither "pagan" or polytheistic, and /or heathen.Simply put "Life is sacred" However we pagans and heathens tend to apply that ethic a bit more consistentley.

reply from: yoda

Welcome to the forum.
So it's all "society's fault"? Is that your defense of baby killing?
Abortion is an act of violence BY the woman TOWARDS the unborn.
Not likely. According to Planned Parenthood, the largest single abortion provider in this country, women abort for many "social reasons" that have nothing to do with economics. Women of all economic means abort (kill their babies), so more welfare isn't going to stop it.
You can hear my voice on this forum? How?
No. The killing stops when people stop killing. How complicated is that, really?
Oh, btw, just so you don't think I'm being too "high and mighty", I get my phrase "baby killing" directly from the dictionary:
MSN-Encarta Online:ba·by noun (plural ba·bies) 2. unborn child: a child that is still in the womb http://dictionary.msn.com/find/entry.asp?search=baby
MSN/ENCARTA Online: kill·ing noun 1. slaying: the act of causing the death of a human being or an animal http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?search=killing
Now, would you like to tell us why you consider it moral to kill babies?

reply from: ronin82

Vexing,
Are you being serious or is that what you really think? Personal salvation is only one aspect of Christianity, and in fact over-emphasis on this individual aspect was recently criticized by Pope Benedict in his last encyclical. The Christian faith, since the early Christians themselves, has always had a strong communal element. In spite of secular historical revisionism, which is based more upon ideological pretensions than solid history, the ancient and medieval church took on many social responsibilities, including care of the poor and sick. And I need not remind you that Christ himself established the criteria by which we are to be judged - by how we treat the least of our brothers when they are hungry, naked, in need of healing or comfort. Those who selfishly disregard the needs of their fellow man are also disregarding God. Read Matthew Chapter 25 if you have any doubts on that score.
I see why your name is "Vexing" now - you seek to confound and evade, rather than confront and defend. An obsessive focus on the precieved flaws of your opponents generally indicates that you have no positive positions that can withstand scrutiny.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

then why, yadavater, do they kill babies? " They"have been killing babies for centuries in fact.Remember the small pox infested blankets. Remember the KKK. When people of color are in question, killing babies is a non-issue (consider hurricane Katrina) The fact is, recent legislation has put thousands more children and babies into poverty. I suppose you think poverty is of no concern . As long as that women can lay down on that table and bare that child. Really short sighted dont you think??Will quality of life ever matter to this society? By the way, have you ever been pregnant? Ever been a mother? Ever had to suffer the indignity of applying for a welfare check.?

reply from: 4given

A non-issue? Why are you here then? Aren't you here to defend the right to kill babies? And how about you? Pregnant, mother, welfare?

reply from: yoda

Hey, don't take my word for it, read it yourself:
TABLE 2. Percentage of women reporting that specified reasons contributed to their decision to have an abortion, 2004 and 1987
Reason 2004 1987 (N=1,160) (N=1,900)
Having a baby would dramatically change my life 74 78*
Would interfere with education 38 36
Would interfere with job/employment/career 38 50***
Have other children or dependents 32 22***
Can't afford a baby now 73 69
Unmarried 42 na
Student or planning to study 34 na
Can't afford a baby and child care 28 na
Can't afford the basic needs of life 23 na
Unemployed 22 na
Can't leave job to take care of a baby 21 na
Would have to find a new place to live 19 na
Not enough support from husband or partner 14 na
Husband or partner is unemployed 12 na
Currently or temporarily on welfare or public assistance 8 na
Don't want to be a single mother or having relationship problems 48 52*
Not sure about relationship 19 na
Partner and I can't or don't want to get married 12 30***
Not in a relationship right now 11 12
Relationship or marriage may break up soon 11 16*
Husband or partner is abusive to me or my children 2 3
Have completed my childbearing 38 28**
Not ready for a(nother) child† 32 36
Don't want people to know I had sex or got pregnant 25 33*
Don't feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child 22 27*
Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion 14 24***
Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus 13 14
Physical problem with my health 12 8**
Parents want me to have an abortion 6 8
Was a victim of rape 1 1
Became pregnant as a result of incest <0.5 <0.5
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/3711005.pdf

Say what? Abortion rates among black American are much higher than among people of European descent. What are you talking about?
Now what makes you "suppose" something like that, since you have no idea what I actually "think"? Is personal attack your only way of debating?
As a male, I can't experience pregnancy, but I have had the experience of losing a child I wanted very much to an abortion done against my wishes. Have you ever lost a child?
Welfare? Yes, I have...... so what? Look, if personal attacks are your only "weapons" in this debate, we'd do better to end this conversation here.

reply from: ronin82

I hear you.
Poverty should be a major concern for everyone involved with this issue. I am not a libertarian individualist, but I do believe that waiting for the current government to do anything, or some sort of revolution, is simply a waste of time. We have to begin organizing economic power on our own, through workers cooperatives, communal lifestyles, etc. Individualism and extreme possessiveness are problems we can work on right now, in our own lives.
That said, I wouldn't oppose policies that redistributed more wealth into programs specifically intended to help struggling families.
None of this means I am for abortion in the absence of these alternatives. Once a life is brought into this world through conception, it has inalienable rights which can only be stripped away from it at great peril to us all.
Let's be honest - abortion is around because the idea that people should control their sexual urges for even a week out of the month is considered insane by our hedonistic, sex-obsessed society. A heroin addict doesn't want to hear that he should engage in responsible and moderate drug use. He wants to jam that needle in his arm as often as he can.
I'm all for safe sex, sex ed and the like, within reasonable limits. I don't think condoms should be handed out to 5th graders. But if you break the condom, you buy the baby. And if that prospect is too terrible for a person, they should learn to control themselves, learn the rhythm method or whatever they need to do. Murder is never an acceptable response to an "unplanned" or "unwanted" life. Me and millions of other pro-lifers want that life. We want it to be brought safely into this world. And many of us, though I will admit not all, want to build a society where it is guaranteed a dignified standard of living.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

Im not talking abour more welfare.Maybe the church should roll around in the isles less and help redistribute resources more-- Im talking about the church -the body of christ-actually doing what christ taught. What, that part of scripture is not meant to be literal?You disregard "the least of these my bretheren" You disregard them-and then expect to live in a sane society. I did not litterally hear anyones voice-however, you still have a really high and mighty way of saying things. Your statements are very self rightous. How many actual babys die because the church does nothing of what they speak so highley of? I mean children, and babies that are already living in the world. Again, I am not so ignorant as to suggest"more welfare" Thats not it brothers and sisters.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

uhhm yah adavator--Societys fault. Mine, yours,everyones.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

I never said or stated that it was "moral to kill babies" Just what is it that you consider to be a baby, anyway???"?

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

Thats preciseley my point. Why not just stop killing? No conditions--Even if you want their oil, their land, their gold,their whatever. In case you havent noticed, western civilzation, including its so called religion, cares not one iota for life.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

So, what is it you want to accomplish here?? Maybe burn the women at the stake for having expelled from her body something she didnt want there??? Im suggesting you love her and pray for her and care for her--as I beleive jesus would. Abortion is an act of violence toward the women, as well as the unborn. What about the father of the unborn? No responsibility, no cares,, just walk away. And the women is called a murderer. "Pathetic"

reply from: yoda

Can you use a dictionary? Have you ever looked that word up? Have you seen any of the definitions I've posted here? Those are what I use to define that word.
So....... DO you think it's moral to kill babies? Yes or no........??
I'd rather leave Jesus out of this, since he isn't listed as poster here. How about this for a suggested change: start treating the unborn the same as the born, with respect to criminal laws? IOW, just eliminate the legal distinction between born and unborn. It wouldn't be as overly-dramatic as your "burning at the stake", but it would remove the discrimination that now exists. Think you could go for that?
Not when she asks for it, it's not. And if the father cooperates, or even urges her to abort, his guilt is at least equal to hers. And that makes him a "baby killer" as well.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

First, you have all native americans, so and central am peoples pacific islanders and "other"classified as pagan/heathen/polytheist. Thats not the case. Stop over generalizing. I have never talked to another native american in terms of being a baby munching goblin-quite the contrary. I have never had anyone approach me during the sun dance in order to rip my heart out of my chest. They are decidedley pro-life. All life, not just human life. Is that simple enough for you???

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

Dear Vexing,
Thank you for the excellent reply

reply from: yoda

I'm not sure to whom that post is addressed, notagirl....... were you talking to me?

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

All Im trying to say is stop being so high and mighty. Stop harping on the women and solve the problems.

reply from: yoda

How do you define "high and mighty"?
And how do you object to pointing out the fact that women do choose to have their babies killed?
Don't you believe in taking responsibility for your own actions?

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

No Vexing, I wasnt being completeley serious. This person named Doc someone has himself absolutley convinced of the superiority of white anglo saxons/european civilization.I dont know how he forms a premise for a pro life argument. If some life is superior to other life, then I suppose its ok to annihilate some of it. This civilization is anti-life. period. Asking a women to affirm life is rather hypocrytical in light of that.

reply from: yoda

"Doc someone"? Who the heck is that?

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

You didnt read what the statement really said---America kills babys. It is somehow more acceptable to kill them A) when they are born-reach a few months of age. B)maybe kill them when they become toddlers or reach grade school.
To state my origional thought: When the children are of color, or otherwise have some social impediment (lack of money) it becomes more acceptable to kill them

reply from: yoda

What does any of that have to do with abortion, notagirl?

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

Where is the care, concern, and compassion for babies and children already living in the world. Really, I want to know? I am suggesting that there is a casue/effect relashionship that includes care, concern,and compasion for the children and babies already born into this world. You people on the Christian right might convince me that you have good motives when it comes to saving the unborn, if you were to demonstrate some care, concern, sympathy,rights understanding and dont forget love, for the people, nameley children already born. I am very much a women,thank you.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

To make my statement more succint, I am not convinced of your motives. I think you want to make lots of little christian soldiers from all of the people unable to afford to do otherwise. I dont think your motives have anything at all to do with LOVE, or jesus. Lots of little soldiers to do all your dirty work. Do it the name of God brother.

reply from: yoda

Let me explain something to you, notagirl. We're not really worried about what YOU think of prolifers in general. This is about saving babies, not about saving "our reputation". Do you see the difference?
So telling us your opinion of us as compassionate human beings is a total waste of your time and ours. We're interested in ways to save some of the four thousand babies being electively slaughtered every day, not in getting your approval.
As an aside, many of us have found that it's actually possible to have an interest in helping more than one cause at a time. Now that may be a foreign concept to you, but I do know of several people who have been doing that for years.
And in closing, I'm agnostic. Please direct your religious comments elsewhere.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

apparentley "faith man" you have never made a mistake in yopur life-let alone have any problems !!!!!!!!!! Are you saying that a person is on crack because they get assistence for their kids? wow. u need some education-poverty is the result of laziness--well, ok, maybe just a lttle..I think it has far more to do with greed.Have you heard of the working poor??theres lots of us! have you heard of stay at home moms? lots of those too. Welfare /gov programs are for supporting the lazy and or crack addicted???? is that what you really think,, mr. never had a problem in his life? Secular humanist brain washing??? wow.isnt there something in the bible about God being love--How many already born babies go to bed tonight hungry? Why dont you care about working mothers that need affordable daycare???I said affordable. If they cant get quality affordable day care they cant work. You care about 1) your point of view(2 making judgements against people you dont even know

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

let me make one thing really clear--dont you ever ever call me not a girl again. I really dont know what your problem is. I could care less about getting your approval and i could care less about your reputation. " as for getting slaughtered" America is the biggest purveyor of violence on the planet. I simply do not understand the idolatry--yes idolatry-concerned with th unborn. What about the children that already live in this world ?? that is my question to you? why dont you care for them--they are gonna grow up some day--duh. Why no outrage against the american system that destroys them day by day? why dont you care?

reply from: yoda

Let's see, you called me "yadavator", and "yah adavator", but you're real sensitive about that alphabet soup you call a name? As far as I'm concerned, you're "notagirl" from now on.
And that justifies killing unborn babies....... exactly how? You mean because America is a "violent place", that makes it okay to kill babies? What kind of logic is that, notagirl?
What about the elderly? Why don't you care about them? Why do you ignore the handicapped? Why are you so callous about the mentally challenged? What makes you so cold and uncaring about everyone?
You proaborts don't care about anyone but yourselves, but that doesn't make elective abortion wrong...... it's wrong because it take an innocent life without justification.
So all you proabort babykillers know to do is sling mud, and try to divert us away from the subject at hand..... the bloody slaughter you support.

reply from: joe

Vexing, you ignorance is simply amazing! All pro life advocates are helpful to our cause. Some are mean as hell, some are as peaceful as doves but all are doing their respected share to save the unborn. Vexing the more you type the more you help us, in a way you are pro life. Thank you.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

let me say it again : America is the biggest purveyor of violence in the world. You villianize a women, call her a murderer. Al by herself, she commits murder huh? What about the Doctors? What about the clinics making mega sums of money? America is also the most anti life culture on the face of the earth. You are callous, cold, uncaring and indifferent to the needs of people. ( A person isnt even a person in fact until they have drawn that first breath.) You have your priorities mixed up.An embryo is an embryo. A fetus is a fetus. Stop talking smack about killing babies--america has been "killing babies" for a couple of centuries now. Stop the so called war on terror, then I will believe that you have good motives for all these little babies that you want to see come into the world. A lot of people have talked a lot of self rightous *****.Does anyone have a plan for what will become of all these children, once they are born?Now that makes sense--Show me your plan for all these babies. Including the ones that the state has to take care of because they have special needs and knowone wants them. Knowone on this bull***** forum has said anything at all about the supposed love of god , or the love we should have for one another. I never called you any names Mr yodavator. Your just a cold and indifferent person, and I would rather abort a growing fetus than give it to you. You are a very mean spirited person.

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

Dear Vexing
thank you so much for your comment.I think that the unborn are worth saving--I am not saying they are not. Maybe we can move on to higher level after a few very simple rules of human altruism are laid as a foundation. Mathew 25 says it much better than I ever could. Thanks for listening

reply from: joe

ntvgrl4yeshua, how dare you blaspheme the words of my Lord and Savior, do you think for a second you represent the will of God? The unborn innocent human life represents the pinnacle of that scripture you quoted. Learn what it means before you quote the holy scripture in error.

reply from: yoda

Let me ask you again: SO WHAT..... IF IT IS???? Does violence justify MORE VIOLENCE?????
"Murder" is defined as an ILLEGAL killing of a human being, dufus.
But the GUILT of abortion rests on ALL who participate and support it, including YOU.
You just go from one lie to the next, don't you?
per·son (plural peo·ple per·sons (formal)) noun 1. human being: an individual human being 2. human's body: a human being's body, often including the clothing
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861725217/person.html

per.son Pronunciation: (pûr'sun),-n. 2. a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing. 6. the body of a living human being, sometimes including the clothes being worn: He had no money on his person. http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0584644.html

Main Entry: per·son 1 : HUMAN: 4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=person&x=16&y=16

Person: Pronunciation puhr sEn Definition 1. a human being. Definition 2. the body of a human being. Example the clothes on his person. http://www.wordsmyth.net/live/home.php?script=search&matchent=person&matchtype=exact

Yes, and they are also babies:
MSN-Encarta Online:ba·by noun (plural ba·bies) 2. unborn child: a child that is still in the womb http://dictionary.msn.com/find/entry.asp?search=baby
Dictionary.com ba·by (bb) n. pl. ba·bies 2. An unborn child; a fetus. http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=baby
iNFOPLEASE.com ba.by pronunciation: (bA'bE), -n. 5. a human fetus. http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0330371.html
Stop LYING.
And that makes it RIGHT??????
GROW UP!!!!!!!

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

I dont care what you think of my comments and I dont care what you think of me. Knowone answers the most basic of questions. Let me quote someone else"America cant take care of a stray cat, let alone a baby - " whats your plan for all the thousands of children that will come into this world when Roe is overturned.?? I think you nastys on the Christian right want lots and lots of soldiers for that endless war--To say that you are pro life is hypocrysy--you dont give a rats ass about life or the quality of it. Your a bunch of juvenile, name calling idiots.

reply from: yoda

Do you think I'm a government official, or a religious leader perhaps? No, I'm not...... so I don't have a "plan" to care for "thousands" of children, just as you don't have any plan (or care, for that matter) about the children we have now. What I do have is a deeply held conviction that the elective killing of innocent unborn babies is morally disgusting and repulsive to me.
I'm agnostic.
Now you're being just plain stupid:
pro-life adjective against open access to abortion: in favor of bringing the human fetus to full term, especially by campaigning against open access to abortion and against experimentation on embryos http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861736610 [/A]
ROTFLMAO!!!!
WHAT NAMES DID YOU JUST CALL US????????

reply from: 4given

Coco, any idea who is bumping your thread to argue the pro-abortion points you were trying to help us understand some months ago? Do you agree w/ what this poster is saying? I know you have stated similar things about Christians. What about the other points?

reply from: ntvgrl4yeshua

coco didnt ask you or whoever, about the morality of "killing babies" why dont people that already exist in the world-the homeless, the uninsured,minorities,the imprisioned and victims of various kind of abuse, get any attention from conservative christians???in other words, that clump of cells, if allowed to come into the world, faces life among people like you, and many others in this forum that dont give a rats--- about quality of life. thanks for listening

reply from: yoda

Most likely that is coco herself, trolling here under a new name.

reply from: thecoldensues

The point is not that America is wealthy, which it is. The point is that those who earn their wealth, have also earned the right to do with it as they please.
Like go get an abortion? How about hire a gay prostitute? Buy a gun to shoot their wife? Go get a hammer so they can beat their kids? I could go on...

reply from: ProInformed

Actually ntvgrl4yeshua (I had to cut & paste that name because I knew I wouldn't remember it otherwise... 'no tv girl 4 yeshua') IMHO the responses to your posts have been rather patient, logical and calm compared to your posts.
You seem to be having a rage-control problem.
You also seem to be under the influence of some very negative presumptions about pro-lifers and an anti-U.S. attitude too.
I encourage you to set aside your preconcieved notions, to calm down, and to stop all the negative insulting insinuations you're slinging at pro-lifers.
I also STRONGLY encourage you to take the challenge to become well-informed about this important issue before attempting to debate it further.
You have brought up several abortion-related issues in your posts but don't appear to have much in-depth knowledge of them. Apparently your only purpose in bringing them up is to use them as put-downs against pro-lifers.
If you have any genuine concern about the topics you've brought up why not do your own internet search for more info on them including what can and is being done to try to solve those problems INCLUDING how YOU can get involved in being part of the solution?
Also, you seem to have a belief that anybody who doesn't allow an innocent victim to be brutally killed is therefore TOTALLY responsible for the care of that victim? (I don't know... sort of like a violent kidnapper's demand for ransom or else?) Maybe that partly explains why you are not also chastising choice cultists for not doing more? Is it your thinking that ONLY pro-lifers are responsible for finding and funding the solutions?

reply from: 4given

Have we met? Who are people like me? I know I choose my friends carefully and a predominating factor, consistent in nearly every one is the desire to act selflessly, the availability to others in need upon request, and the typically not so blissful beginning.. Stop stereotyping. You can't judge any group, organization or being by their "posse". What is life like in my presence? You really don't know. Why so assuming? The pro-life community as a whole values life far more than any proabort I have ever been acquainted with. (exceptions 3.. work in progress) The homeless do interest me. There is a coat drive.. my family has done the soup kitchen bit. I left home at 19 and was "homeless" in Berkeley CA for a short time. Living amongst these spoiled urban rats, trying to tough it out w/ pops and ma sending them cash to eat. Food not bombs.. Great organization! I never felt worthy of them though. I always wanted to make my own money to eat.. The uninsured? Laugh! We are uninsured! I have the misfortune of bad kidneys (1)and one that needs to compensate for the lack of ureters.. surgery at 4, 5, 17, 26.... Not all related, but no insurance! My spouse is paralyzed from a 27 foot fall w/out insurance.. seems the employer, without our knowledge, thought "insurance is the lack of faith in God".. The back, wrist, pelvis, arm, foot, leg and ankle injuries aren't nearly as significant as the inability to train for a new career, PAY for healthcare out of the existing job coverage (75% loss of pay btw) Minorities? Does not fly w/ me. Again- you don't even know who you are speaking to! Imprisoned.. okay. Should I get to my brother now.. and which experience should I name? I guess I am closest to Jacob. Heroin sales, strong arm.. possession..theft.. much of his life has been spent in prison. He is on parole now. What else are we supposed to do w/ and for these selfish criminals? You think our tax dollars don't do enough? You think every dime he made in prison because he put a needle into another person's arm for a return sale/deal.. I should be sorry for that? Whatever. You really don't know that much.. Or at most, not enough to think you own a position of judgment. Respond!

reply from: yoda

Exactly. They want them all dead, so they think that relieves them of any responsibility for what happens to them if they are NOT killed....... let them starve, let them freeze to death.... whatever.... they've already washed their hands of them.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, only she was calling herself "coco" at the time.

reply from: ProInformed

I have a better question (and one of the answers).
Why aren't pro-aborts more involved with offering women non-violent solutions to unplanned pregnancies?
Some pro-aborts, while they hide behind the more nice sounding label of pro-choice, aren't at all pro-choice, or even that charitable.
One of Sanger's greatest influences, sexologist/eugenicist Dr. Havelock Ellis (with whom she had an affair, leading to her divorce from her first husband), urged mandatory sterilization of the poor as a prerequisite to receiving any public aid. The Problem of Race Regeneration, by Havelock Ellis, p. 65


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