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Flip-flop terms

by: pookiy1980

I was having a conversation with a PC coworker the other day about a miscarriage. The woman who miscarried was about 8weeks preg. This coworker of mine tells me she "lost her baby". At the time I did not think too deeply about this.
Well on my way home I got to thinking why is it when a woman has an abortion she is "removing fetal/embryonic tissue" but when she spontaneously miscarries she looses the "baby"???
I thought more about this and I hear/see this over and over....
Why is it a baby sometimes and tissues at others?

reply from: xnavy

i sometimes wonder the same thing.

reply from: yoda

Strong emotions sometimes bring out the truth, in plain, unvarnished words.

reply from: faithman

Wanted? Baby. Unwanted? Fetus, tissue, blob, clump of cells, product of conception, target for pro-abort men.

reply from: pookiy1980

you know FM that was kind of what I was thinking and was actually going to post that but didn't.
Yeah I have seen the baby called so many things when abortion is being described...."contents of your uterus" yep ol' PP. Call it what it is people!!
Dogs are preg. with puppies, cats with kittens why can't babies be called what they are???

reply from: faithman

That is the pro abort trick that I have learned. That is why I call them names. It is easier for bortheads to kill the womb child when you strip them of their humanity. Scumb bag borthead maggot punk death skanks deserve no respect, or any expectation of kindness or consideration. We must get it thru our heads that we must defeat them. I don't want the abortion industry regulated, I want it destroyed. Our "leaders" have actually become the acomplises of the abortion industry, and have actually offered bounties on pro-lifers who believe the womb child should be protected like the born child. These "leaders" are just a guilty as the abortionist, and make their living off of the blood of the womb child.

reply from: JaysonsMom

Great post, pookiy. I've often wondered the same thing.

reply from: Jagger1

give me a break...
you preach your faith as if you are the only believer; that i do not have the same faith in my god.
it is true that actions and inactions may speak louder than words, however, meaning and reason become obscured when YOU attempt to ascribe values to others. in the end, you become blind to reason and see only what you wish to see.
i would recommend that you focus more on your day to day and let those who know their situations make their own decisions. your views have been noted.
this should not be a political issue and as a scientist i am all too aware that many people have difficulty divorcing themselves from the facts of nature and act on emotion alone. i am not saying emotions are wrong, however, imposition of emotion on unwilling people is akin to rape.
judge not lest ye be judged.

reply from: nykaren

Jagger, very well said.

reply from: faithman

AAAAHHHH fresh pro-death meat!!! Your own post condemns you, for you have judged the womb child as undeserving of consideration as the born person enjoys. Give you a break?!! Which leg borthead?!!

reply from: pookiy1980

Jagger1-nykaren
To the origional post: do you know why it's a baby when it's miscarried and "tissues" when aborted?
BTW ny how is your daughter?

reply from: yoda

I don't know about anyone else, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
To begin with, you're misusing that is to form and express our opinions, which is our constitutional right.
Are you seeking to deny us our constitutional rights, or what?

reply from: yoda

Yeah, you would...... pure bs, I would say.....

reply from: Jagger1

AAAAHHHH fresh pro-death meat!!! Your own post condemns you, for you have judged the womb child as undeserving of consideration as the born person enjoys. Give you a break?!! Which leg borthead?!!
your an idiot.

reply from: Jagger1

yodavater--
are you a spin doctor?
you are the one who must interpret; i'm sorry if you cannot comprehend.
one more thing; how can you misuse a quote?

reply from: faithman

According to this scripture the borthead used, I am perfectly willing to be put on trial for killing womb children, for I am confident that the final judgement would be inocent. What about you borthead? I havb been "judged" by the bortheads as a hater. So that means they have placed themselves in line for the same judgement. Now lets judge with the same judgement. Let us consider the evidence. I advocate the love protection, and providing for the womb child. I believe that as a victim of murder [a hate crime] they deserve justice. Bortheads come on this forum, advocate the murderous hate crime of abortion, and the injustice of giving killer moms a free walk after killing the womb child. Now I ask you members of the jury, who is the hater? Bortheads have "judged" the preborn as non humans. I have merely applied their own standard, and say that bortheads have no humanity at all.

reply from: AshMarie88

Why is it when we don't judge, just try to educate people and save babies, it's "judging" and "we should let others make their own decisions"?
As long as children don't die, I'm all FOR people making their own decisions about THEIR OWN BODY AND LIFE. But in abortion children do die, therefore I am against anything that kills them.

reply from: faithman

Dear one, that is a judgement on your part. The thing is that judge not, is only half of the scripture. lest ye be judged is the other. I am perfectly willing to be judged on the issue of abortion, for I am innocent of killing womb children. The bortheads want to pass all kind of judgements against us, and then exclude themselves from any judgement at all. Don't fall into that trap. When they punk off at the mouth with that statement, just say you are willing to be judged on this issue. Murder is a judgement. Abortion is murder. That is a judgement. I will make that judgement, for I am willing to be put on trial for that crime. Do not use the authority of the Bible,if you are not willing to put yourself under the authority of the Bible. That is the mistake that NY has made. She only believes the part of the bible she wants to. She uses it to judge, but is not willing to put herself under the same judgement that she dishes out to others.

reply from: Jagger1

As much as you would like it to be, this is not an "either/or" issue; it's a "NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS ISSUE". Unless you are someone's doctor or priest and they are actively soliciting your guidance, you have 2 cents worth; that's it.
You say that i am "borthead" and that i "advocate murderous hate crimes". You ascribe to me characteristics akin to a vampire and a monstrous killer. Does this not enable you to truly despise (hate?) people like me? That's ironic because that's how this whole forum began.
The fact is language empowers us to go beyond our basic primal instincts. Thus, why some say "babies" while others say "fetus" is probably the same reason Faithman calls me a "borthead". It enables and empowers him.
Information provides a justification for action and how this information is presented enables a point of view to be stressed. Thus, media and politics don't (and should not) mix.
btw--Idiot derives from Anglo-French ydiote, from Latin idiota ignorant person, from Greek idiOtEs one in a private station, layman, ignorant person, from idios one's own, private
here endeth the lesson....

reply from: faithman

In which you have said a whole lot of nothing, and have taught the same. So.... you "judge" the pre born as non human? The murder of a human is a private issue? The woman who strangled her 2 year old in the privacy of her home should not be judged a murderer? I am willing to go on trial, and be judged as to whether I am a borthead monster vanpire baby killer. I am confident of an innocent verdict. How but you borthead? You have judged me as being ignorant, but if we both are put on trial for that claim, I believe I would hold up better under scrutiny. I have look at the evidence of ultra sound, and fiber optic photos. I have study medical journals that say Life begins at conception. You want to accuse me of ignorance so you can dismiss this scientific evidence. According to your own standard of judge not lest ye be judged, you are willing ignorant of fact, and a hypocrit. You tell us to get educated, when what you mean is get indoctrinated to your borthead ways. Your are a maggot punk borthead monster, who has no humanity at all, and yes, I am willing to be put under the same scrutiny of judgement. Bring it on borthead. Bortheads are cowards and bullies who pick on those who can not defend them selves. ....and yes, I am willing to be put on trial for the same.

reply from: Schillinator

Fatman,
You stand upon your pulpit and condemn others for a different point of view and pay no regard to the fact that every situation is different and every situation justifies a different means to an end. How you can call yourself Faithman and proceed to call names, force your opinions, and NOT listen to any other input other than your own? That certainly doesn't seem very Christian-like, if I do say so myself.
Your blinded views and ideas of absolute good and evil are the reasons why many of us have a hard subscribing to your ideology. Your faith may have some great boundaries of good and evil, however, your unwillingness to accept other views, while meanwhile believing in miracles, spiritual beings, resurrections, and other such magic is laughable.
I suggest spending more time worrying about your OWN affairs and not invading the rights of others to determine their own course of action and dictate the consequences of those actions accordingly.

reply from: nykaren

To me, it's a baby in either situation so I guess I'm not much help with an answer to that. My daughter saw her doctor Tuesday and is doing okay physically. She was on her feet way too much yesterday with the burial and had some problems, but is trying to take it easy today. It's a very rough time for her and her husband emotionally obviously, but they're hanging in there. Thanks for asking.

reply from: Schillinator

borthead monster vanpire baby killer
Borthead maggot
Nice, FAITHman.....nice. Angry much?

reply from: nykaren

Of course he is, but don't let him scare you off. That's exactly what he would like.

reply from: AshMarie88

Abortion is as much of a private issue as rape or murder of the born is a private issue.
Unless you are that baby and you are specifically asking to be slaughtered and thrown away, it's none of YOUR business to kill that child.

reply from: AshMarie88

I'd agree... if abortion didn't kill innocent life.

reply from: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

To all the Pro-choicers here....
It saddens me that with all your englightenment and liberal education that you cannot see one point.
One point so basically simple that someone who is smarter then any pro-lifer (Or thats how you act) should be able to see it.
Weather or not we are correct (Which Everything I've seen points to) WE BELIEVE THAT THE UNBORN CHILD IS A PERSON> THEREFOR ABORTION IS MURDER> THEREFOR IT IS NOT A PRIVATE ISSUE OF AUTONOMY OR CHOICE.
So, We will read and listen to other people stances and ideals, but we will NOT give ANY ground to someone who we believe kills BABIES.
Don't get SOOO shocked when your englightened views do not change our minds.
Don't get sooo shocked when faithman calls you name (Which usually is more humerous then shocking). Lord knows you call names at every child molester you see on T.V. , you get mad at every guy who kills his girlfriend, and you have no respect for Charles manson. So why, if you are intelligent enough to understand we believe the child in the womb is a person, are you so shocked when we ascribe the same names to pro-aborts?
Its all very simply.
We will not rest until abortion ends.
FOR ME Its mainly because its murder, but ALSO because everything I've seen says that abortion is NOT whats best for women.
All the Empowerment I've seen be given to women from abortion is the right to have men cuss around them, the right for them to be used as sexual tools, the right for PP to cover up their rapes, the right for people to act as if they don't need to be treated a little bit better.
I have never seen a woman treated BETTER because she can kill her child.
I've never seen an empowered woman walk out of the abortion mill.
What is Christian of us is to defend the most innocent.
What is Christian of us is not to cower or condone or sugar-coat the work of pro-aborts.
If you believed that murder was happening on such a legal large scale, or at all legally, then I'd expect you would take exactly the same strong stance against it.
And if you would not then you are a coward.

reply from: Schillinator

FWWID,
I understand your point and your beliefs, and thankfully, you can express them much more eloquently than others such as Faithman. I can respect your beliefs.
I do not want to misrepresent myself and some sort of baby butcherer or someone who agrees with using abortion as birth control, I do not. I do however believe that there are instances (rape, incest, etc) that warrant much more of a grey area. In those situations that I just mentioned, I do not feel that it is my business to try and dictate what another human being chooses to do....you're right.
If there is emotional trauma involved with giving birth to a baby that is born because of a vicious rape or incest, then I believe it is up to the WOMAN to decide what she needs to do....not ME. You know why? Because I'm not the one who has to look at that baby born from rape or incest every day and remember what was done to me....I'm not the one who has to deal with it....
I say....mind your own business and let Americans decide for Americans. You do not have the right to dictate what choices other people make. If they choose to have an abortion and it truly is against god's will, then I guess they will suffer the consequences.

reply from: yoda

Your justifications for the killing of innocent babies seem rather weak to me. The baby is not guilty of rape OR incest, to begin with, so why kill it? And ADOPTION will cure the "I've got to look at it every day" problem, don't you think? Seems to me you're quite eager to go along with any reason given to kill a baby.
Protecting the weak and the innocent ought to be everyone's business, even the cowardly like you. You'd "interfere" to protect a born child, wouldn't you? Or would you?
Same can be said for killing a born baby, can it not? Does the suffering of "God's consequences" mean they get a walk here on earth when they kill a born baby?
Overall, your arguments are as weak as warm spit, Schillinator.

reply from: yoda

Okay, I've just got to call you on this one...... "FORCE YOUR OPINIONS"????
WHO ARE YOU KIDDING???? How in blazes does one "force one's opinions" on an opinion forum??????
Are you smoking something illegal????

reply from: AshMarie88

And why not?
There is NO gray area when it comes to INNOCENT HUMAN PEOPLE.
Educating women and trying to prevent abortions aren't dictating what another human being chooses to do.
It's not that we don't care about the woman who was raped. We're not THAT hateful even tho you think we are.
We don't, however, believe that abortion cures the pain of rape or makes everything all better again. It DOESN'T.
Abortion doesn't take away the pain. It doesn't help the woman in any way recover from the rape. It only makes another dead child who didn't have any choice or say in what happened to ITS OWN LIFE. It didn't ask to be created or killed.
Whether or not that child is born, the woman will ALWAYS remember the rape. Despite a pro-abort's claims, the woman will have nightmares about it, she'll see men who look/sound like the man who raped her, she'll look at babies and realize she could've had that, she'll think of the abortion debate (since it is so popular and talked about all the time) and remember she had an abortion and WHY she did.
Children shouldn't die for a pig criminal's crime. The child shouldn't be killed for it, it doesn't deserve to be blamed and punished for it.
Also, did you know rape pregnancies account for less than 1 percent of all pregnancies? And the majority of women who are raped keep their babies.
Heck, a lot of women are helped to be healed by KEEPING their children!!
Yea, and women don't have the right to dictate which of their offspring live and which ones die. They aren't the ultimate deciders of their children's deaths.
Yea, obviously.
Which shows you care nothing whatsoever about women, at least not the ones who regret it.

reply from: AshMarie88

Okay, I've just got to call you on this one...... "FORCE YOUR OPINIONS"????
WHO ARE YOU KIDDING???? How in blazes does one "force one's opinions" on an opinion forum??????
Are you smoking something illegal????
And it should be mentioned that pro-aborts force their abortion beliefs on their children, that's VERY wrong too.

reply from: Schillinator

You know....you're all right. I've seen the error of my ways and I too would like to be a member of the right wing religious right. Do I have to sign up and get a card or something, or is my participation enough? Too bad ole' GW Bush can't run for a third term too, because he's just as righteous as you good folks.
It just amazes me that there is such a group of righteous people such as yourselves that are volunteering to save all of us heathens from eternal sizzling in Satan's own frying pan.
I have a daughter. My wife and I chose to have her and planned as such. If she had gotten pregnant accidentally, we would have had our baby anyway. I personally would not practice abortion for any reason I can think of. I'm apparently just not moral enough to impose my will and opinions on other people.
I apologize for stating my opinion in this forum as an "outsider", please allow me to drink the grape kool aid and join your group.
Cheers.

reply from: Schillinator

AND....Yodavater, if I WAS smoking something illegal, I suppose that would be yours and god's business too. Can't even fathom your holy opinion on that topic.
Peace out my brutha.

reply from: faithman

Of course he is, but don't let him scare you off. That's exactly what he would like.
Untrue you lying pro-death skank. I love it when you stupid ignorant idiot liers show up. It is way too much fun to expose you for the monster, vanpire, scum bag, maggot punk, pro-death skanks that you are. Oh, I forgot idiot.

reply from: faithman

It's strawberry kool aid outsider.

reply from: 4given

It's strawberry kool aid outsider.
JOHN 4:10 If thou knewest the the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink: thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

reply from: faithman

It's strawberry kool aid outsider.
JOHN 4:10 If thou knewest the the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink: thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
I LIKE IT !!!!

reply from: Schillinator

Wow.
Faithman, you truly have a grasp on the English language, huzzah to you my FAITHFUL and compassionate friend. You truly are a scholar, I think we shall leave it at that for now.
Concerned Parent, I appreciate your intellectual views and questioning of my prior posts....I made it through most of your response posts but haven't had time yet to finish all of them as I was incrediby busy beating my wife. She's a fighter I'll tell ya!
When she's back in the kitchen where she belongs, I can resume our conversation....there, that's better.
Now, to explain my point, I believe your attempt at other examples (i.e. wife beating, child abusing, rape, and apparently speeding) are a little far fetched, though I see what you're driving at (although I hope it's at the speed limit or I'll be forced into a citizens arrest!).
My point is, I am concerned primarily with my own affairs and the affairs of my immediate family. I make judgement calls every day with regard to my own life and feel justified in doing so. What I'm saying is, this is the United States of America and I don't feel that my opinions, whether based in science, religion, or other, should dictate what another person does to his/her body. Including but not limited to: abortion, drug use, cigarette smoking, over-eating, speeding, or even tearing the little tags off of their mattresses (that's illegal in many states). I feel that those are personal choices (perhaps with the exception of the mattress thing, that's just wrong).
IN the words of the great John Lennon, "Whatever gets you through the night, it's all right, it's all right".
Oh, by the way, the Purple Kool Aid was a reference to the Jonestown Massacre, but nice creepy Bible verse to make some sort of point I guess, 4given. Nothing compares 2u.

reply from: pookiy1980

LOL! Now we have a match for Fm's sarcasm!
The only difference is Schillinator does not resort to the kiddy name calling.
's

reply from: yoda

I don't have a license in "spin", no.
The fact seems to be that you are "sorry" even if I can comprehend...... so what?
I have no idea what you are asking, do you?
BTW, here's the most common usage of "judge":
Main Entry: judge Function: verb Inflected Form(s): judged; judg·ing
1 : to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=judge

reply from: yoda

Fascinating....... IMO, what we decide to make our business is "NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS".....
NOW, who has the "authority" to enforce their opinion on this matter?

reply from: yoda

It's a time honored principle among people of principle that the ends do not justify the means. Where does that leave you?

reply from: yoda

Now you're talking about REAL force. when they kill their unborn children!

reply from: yoda

And yet, you "impose your will and opinions" on other people EVERY DAY by way of our criminal laws against murder, rape, etc.... how can you do THAT??
BUT OF COURSE...... you will NOT answer the question put to you, right?
Well, here it is again: HOW DOES ONE "FORCE" their opinion on someone on a forum????
Care to 'SPLAIN that one to us, Lucy?
Cheers!

reply from: yoda

And you equate THOSE THINGS with the killing of INNOCENT BABIES????
NO WONDER you are a BABY KILLER!!

reply from: Schillinator

Yoda,
Dude, you're killin me over here. Do you ever feel as if you've been had?
I find it funny that you call me names repeatedly, especially baby killer. You make it seem as if, before work today, I grilled one baby for breakfast, used another to fertilize my gardens, and ran one down on my way into the office. Settle down man.
I don't impose MY opinion on YOU every day in ANY way there chief. I don't make the laws, I try to live by them. I'm on this forum to share my opinion to all of you enlightened folks. In the REAL world, not cyberspace (I suspect this may be a confusing issue for you, 'specially since your nickname is Star Wars based...time to move out of mom's basement?), I believe that people have their own free will to choose. You're the type that blows up abortion clinics because they don't fit in your world view (which, undoubtedly, is a Star Wars Role Playing Game).
And yes, mattress tag removal is a hot topic for some groups right now, so don't disregard it so quickly.....MATTRESS WETTER!!!

reply from: yoda

"Baby killer" isn't a "name", it's an occupation. It's what you do, every time you advocate the destruction of innocent unborn babies on a forum like this. By adding your support to the slaughter of babies, you become a part of that slaughter. You become a baby killer. Live with it.
Sure you do. Unless you are out there actively trying to repeal our criminal laws, you are imposing your morality on the rest of us, that's what criminal laws do. Every one in our society that is not trying to overturn our criminal laws is a part of them. And apparently, that includes you, right?
So, you're okay with laws against murder, but not with laws against killing unborn babies? Why not? Why discriminate? Why keep an open season on unborn human babies, as if they were a game animal? Do you just like the idea of babies being killed, or what?
In summary, your support for abortion may have already influenced someone to kill a baby today. How's that make you feel, baby killer?

reply from: pookiy1980

Dang Schillinator, I thought you said that you had your daughter??? I guess I am confused have you been involved in an abortion???

reply from: yoda

Dang Schillinator, I thought you said that you had your daughter??? I guess I am confused have you been involved in an abortion???
He doesn't have to be to qualify, pookiy. Just supporting abortion in public is all it takes. His support could influence someone to kill their baby, and that makes him just as responsible as the woman and her abortionist.

reply from: Schillinator

Actually, when I was joking about coming into the office, I meant to say, coming into my Baby Killing office. It's like a production line, it's crazy. Pays good too.
How much would a license be to get an all season, baby-hunting license do you think? Now that's a law I can buy in to.
I don't support abortion, Young Skywalker, I simply believe that each individual should have a right to choose their actions, and pay the consequences accordingly.
Let's say that I want everyone in the U.S. to have to wear black capes and darth Vader masks...that's MY belief in what is right. Do I have the right to overturn laws that say everyone can wear whatever attire they want, just because that's what I believe? No! Most people would be outraged at not only having to wear a hot cape and vader mask, but also because everyone knows that black absorbs sunlight and that outfit would be scaldingly hot in the summer. Well....some folks might like it, but it would probably only be a minority of people, like those who live in their mom's basement....*cough, cough*....
The force is strong with you young Jedi.

reply from: 4given

If you condone the killing of one child, the blood of that child is on your hands. I would urge you to view 100 abortion photographs and then have an opinion on the matter. Unless you are in fear of what you stand for that is.

reply from: Jagger1

I really don't understand what point it is you're trying to make here. Would you mind sharing the "facts of nature" you believe are relevant to this discussion? Are you implying that society has no right to become involved in "personal" decisions wherein innocent others are harmed? Parents who feel justified in abusing their children, as well as husbands who feel justified in beating their wives into submission have historically taken this exact same view. Why should our society have a right to interfere in these situations, thereby "imposing" societal values on those who do not agree with the validity of those values?
First--I sincerely appreciate your response. I also would like to commend your signature quote.
The facts of nature I was referring to is (my belief) that there are many types of people; evolutionary speaking (and no, I am not making a case for eugenics here). I believe that humans have the ability to evolve on a path of higher consciousness; of self reflection, understanding and discovery. This path is only attainable when one can truly understand and attempt to comprehend the nature of the one true God. It is these people who have "evolved" Evolution is not a thousand year process; it can happen in the blink of an eye.
Communication is a key component to this path; it is a tool that enables us to understand ourselves as both a person and as a member of a community. This, I believe, to be a fact of nature.
Yes, it is unfortunate that there are some who attempt to justify their actions through "inalieable rights" (i.e. the right to punish; the right to abuse; the right to tax; etc). However, I do not see any difference when justification is attempted through "belief". Islam believes it should punish women for eliciting sexual desire in men--why else do they force their women to stay cloaked in a burka?
As previously stated, the decision of abortion, albeit good or bad, right or wrong, is one that a woman should be permitted to make on her own; based on her own self interest. It is the conclusion of her own decision processes. Perhaps she feels uncapable, perhaps she feels trapped, perhaps she feels ashamed. I'm sure we can all agree that these are unfortunate circumstances. It is these justifications she will use upon her OWN judgement day; if God so decrees, she will spend an eternity in Dante's inferno (old testament), or she may come back as a cow (Hindu reincarnation) or she may come back as another woman faced with a similar decision. I believe God is a teacher; not an executioner. What I sense is that many people wish to "save" her from this judgement, for is this not a traditional Christian value?
Unfortunately, I am too cynical to believe that people wish to save a baby's life for the sake of saving a life. Baby's are cute. Baby's have all the potential in the world. The next fetus aborted could have come up with a cure for cancer if given the chance; it could have also been Hitler. If people were truly interested in the salvation of brothers and sisters of the human race, than we should see much more action from people regarding genocides in places such as Africa; we would never execute another criminal; we would not see our urban centers in the state they are currently in.
What I want to know is, where is the desire to "save" the people who are already here? People suffer every day (a basic tenet in the Buddhist philosophy), however, nothing gets done (I'm thinking of the Katrina disaster); in the pro-life/pro-choice debate, I see selfish interests at play.
Education is a tool. Unfortunately, so is a coat hanger.

reply from: pookiy1980

Schillinator let me ask you this.
So where exactly do you stand on the abortion issue? I understand on one post you are against it except for things like rape/incest exc. Then you go on to tell us you think we should all mind out own business and let each decide for themselves.
So do you think abortion is ok when use as "birth control"? A woman and man are in the mood and go at it unprotected and end up preg. is it ok for her to abort since it was an accident?
How about aborting due to life style changes? In school, do not have the money, not married, no house??
Up to how old do you feel abortion is ok?
Do you believe that what is growing inside the woman is a baby? and if so how can you really accept a woman's choice to kill her baby?
I am sure you do not agree with killing the baby after it is born even though the woman chooses she does not want a child....so where do you see the difference is between a born baby and an unborn?
If a woman has all this power to choosewhat happens to her children, then why do people not protect the woman's right to choose to kill after birth?
Sorry do not mean to put you in the hot seat I just do not like to assume things nor put words in people's mouths.

reply from: yoda

Same thing. There is no difference.
Take capital punishment for example. Suppose you campaigned to legalize capital punishment in your state, which did not have it. Suppose your side won. Suppose then that your state accidentally executed an innocent man. Would you be partly responsible for that innocent man's death, even though the DA, the jury, and the judge were the ones who sentenced him, and the executioner was the one who actually killed him? Of course you would! You made it possible for all that to happen, you "ENABLED" all that to happen.
And as a supporter of legal abortion, you are an "ENABLER" of baby killing. So, you are also a baby killer.

reply from: yoda

And yet, as far as I can tell, you make no case to distinguish between a woman killing her unborn baby and another woman killing her born baby..... or a man killing a stranger, as far as that goes. Why do you give "special permission" to a women to kill her unborn baby?

reply from: Schillinator

Pookie, let me first say that YOU ABSOLUTELY DIG ME. I'm SORRY BABY, I'm MARRIED. Seriously, from your profile you look SMOKIN' hot, but hey, I'm jsut here to type! I mean, get of my junk BABEEE!
Seriously though, you dig the Schil-man and that's cool, but seriously....can't do it.
To answer your multitude of questions quite simply:
I am neither for or against abortion unless something should happen to my wife (see what I did there, reinforced that I'm TAKEN!). My wife and I would then choose what to do. In my own circumstance, I can tell you that I would not have an abortion in my family. I do not condone if for birth control. I do not condone it for most reasons. My main point is, and one that people don't seem to get is, because of all of YOUR convictions, you can not impose your beliefs on others....period. Each invidual woman should be able to decide for themselves based on their circumstances...it is not YOURS, MINE, or any one else's right to determine that for them. In this regard, I am very MUCH for women's rights, the right to choose what happens to THEM. Not some pack of half wound loonies (see Faithman and Yoda-bater).
I dig you Pookie, I can feel your vibe....
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork.
Edward Abbey (1927 - 1989)

reply from: pookiy1980

I am sure someone will tear this apart but my 2c is wearing these clothes does not kill anyone (well I guess if they get hot enough...) but abortion does.
I may think it is unsafe to smoke while driving and I may want to change this and make it law yet if it doe snot become law it is not killing anyone...abortion being legal does.

reply from: Schillinator

Touche....you hot little minx.

reply from: yoda

Exactly. And being an "enabler" of legal abortion puts one morally in the same position as if they were having the abortion themselves.

reply from: yoda

You keep repeating that stupid proabort mantra as if it actually meant something.... it does not.
All criminal laws "impose" the beliefs of society on the members of that society. Where do you suppose criminal laws come from? They represent the majority moral position of a society, and as such are "impositions of belief".
So the laws that say you must not kill a born baby "impose" the belief of society that to do so is a BAD THING.... and all we are asking is that our laws reflect that killing an unborn baby is also a BAD thing.

reply from: pookiy1980

ROFLMAO!!!you are a piece of work!! What the hell are you talking about?? I DIG you??? Nope do not DIG anyone who thinks killing is OK!! I am just not the type to put wording in other's mouths or assume things by twisting your words. So get off MY junk!! Sorry Schil-myster I am taken myself no can do
And no you did not answer my "multitude of questions"...do you or do you not agree what was in your WIFES belly was a baby? If so then why is ok for some women to kill a baby?? Where do you see the difference when it is ok to kill this baby??? You support the right to choose what happends the woman so do you also support the right to kill after birth? It's HER choice!!
*or you also believe in the "magic vagina" theory?*

reply from: pookiy1980

Got it killing people is ok with the schill-myster

reply from: Schillinator

Master-Vater,
You have a right to WANT anything in the whole world...how does it feel to WANT?
I want a law that says 35 year old men can't live with their mothers and play Star Wars games all day. Why? Because it bothers me, that's why. However, that's just something I WANT, not that I'll get. Why? Because if I were to put that law into place, you would freak out when exposed to sunlight and real human beings.
Just because I WANT you to come out of the basement, doesn't mean I have a right to IMPOSE it. Dig that, snappy.

reply from: Jagger1

Things are what they are; you say tomatO, i say tomAto....
Tissue is a group of specialized cells that function in a similar way. Tissues interact with other tissues to develop a system. A system is created as to maximize resources for self benefit.
Some people may say about a family pet "we killed him" others may say "we put him down"; euthanasia=suicide; chopped off an arm=amputation; shot in the head=neutralized (military lingo). It's all a question of context. Does this allow ourselves to justify actions? The answer is probably, YES. But it also allows us to communicate with people who may react in a known way when particular words are used (you reading this faithman?)
It's a baby if you or I ascribe it to be a baby (it's only an "A" if we ascribe it to be an "A"; I say SUV; you say gas-guzzler). Words are only as powerful as much as we ascribe them power. To me, if I say *****, it doesn't mean a thing. To others, this is obscene. Does the N-word have the same effect if a black person says it?
I realize this is quite a tangent but it gets us to here; Is a baby human? Yes. Is it murder when the mother chooses to prematurely end the pregnancy? In the eyes of some, yes. I say, to all may read this, I condone when a mother makes this choice.
Which leads us to a moral quandry; one that I'm sure we'll read about here in the coming posts....
Does killing in the name of God justify it as righteous? Is the soldier who pulls the trigger the guilty one; or is the society in which he protects? Is executing a criminal a sin? If so, who is the guilty party; the doctor who injects the poison or the society who deems it as acceptable punishment?
In this forum I've read that pro-choicers are just as guilty as the woman who chooses, as is the doctor who performs the procedure (i.e. causes a miscarriage; i.e. creates an inhospitable womb; i.e. kills a baby). Where is a line drawn? For some, because I have argued this point, I "have blood on my hands". This is an excellent example of how faith obscures reason.
There is a time and place for when faith should cloud reason. However, the debate over this topic I do not believe is to be one of them.

reply from: Schillinator

My last post for a while because I have some babies to kill...
But first of all, Pookie I don't understand how much more clear I have to be with you with regard to your questioning. Secondly, your hot when you're mad. Thirdly, what IN THE HOLY HELL IS THE MAGIC VAGINA AND HOW DO I GET ONE?

reply from: Schillinator

Jagger1,
YOu're my freakin' hero. And, uh, yeah, have you heard about this MAGIC VAGINA Pookie keeps rappin about? I thought this was about abortion and ole' fashion baby killin, and she keeps talking bout her Va-J-J. Crazy, but kind of hot.

reply from: yoda

And you compare that to the killing of innocent babies?
Well, that pretty much explains your position on baby killing.

reply from: pookiy1980

I know you agree with killing people you have made your self clear.
the magic vagina? that is when proaborts consider a "fetus/blob of cells/tissues" to magically become "baby"!!
Inside the magic vagina=ok to kill.....outside=not ok to kill

reply from: Jagger1

still laughing...
i think she is referring to a baby is not a baby until it passes through the gates of the vagina.
which brings up a good point-- we can classify a baby as a human ONCE IT BREATHES AIR. BOOYAH!!!
btw dude--her picture is a cartoon. i think you have problems.

reply from: yoda

Not so. "Faith" has nothing to do with it. As I explained with reference to capital punishment, it has everything to do with enabling others to do a particular thing. When you enable someone else to do something, a part of the responsibility for what they do rests with you.
That's reason, not faith.

reply from: yoda

Only proaborts think that way.
Real scientists know that the classification (human) of our species has absolutely nothing to do with how we obtain oxygen.
But then, proaborts aren't too bright.

reply from: Jagger1

i'm wearing glasses....give me an equation, i'll solve the thing. you simply don't like people disagreeing with you but i'll give you some props and not lump you in with people like faithman. unfortunately, you obviously couldn't detect sarcasm if it started licking your face.
one more little ditty and then i'm out--check this site out regarding proper child rearing. maybe then you can appreciate where shillmeister and i are coming from.
http://www.click2houston.com/video/13649701/index.html?taf=hou

reply from: Schillinator

I know this is a pro life talk room and stuff, and that's cool and all, but this one goes out to Yank-a-bater and Pookie (my darling)....
Do you guys have anything else you can say other than:
"well, I guess you like to kill babies then".
I mean, I could tell you that I really like Kenny G and think he rocks on his sweet flute, and you would be like, "hmmph! Kenny G and you must kill babies together with his killer tunes".
I could say, "Mr. T should star on Grey's Anatomy as the new crack smokin janitor". and you would say, 'Hey, Mr. T once killed seven babies on the A-Team with just some chewing gum, PVC, and a soldering iron. I guess YOU Like to kill babies too".
You keep saying that I have no basis for an argument, but you two geniuses are missing the point. I HAVE an argument, you have a mantra. Think about it and get back to me after your Star Wars game is over.

reply from: faithman

The word fetus [check sp] is a latin word which means little one. It is the same word used for a womb child, and a born child.

reply from: pookiy1980

I will let someone else answer this.
Agreed
Lets put it like this:
pro-aborts say:
spontanious miscarrage=lost a baby
intentional death= removal of tissues
Both losses are human right?
If words have different meaning to people (in this situation a different group of people) then why don't we call:
a person dying from a heart attack= that person died
a person murdered=that blob of tissues was murdered.
suicide=that blob of tissues killed himself
Again the losses are human right??
I have never heard anyone say "Yeah she miscarried and lost her tissues"

reply from: pookiy1980

schillinator I specifically asked you some questions that you neglect to answer.....
YOU are not out playing star wars are you????
"do you or do you not agree what was in your WIFES belly was a baby? If so then why is ok for some women to kill a baby?? Where do you see the difference when it is ok to kill this baby??? You support the right to choose what happends the woman so do you also support the right to kill after birth? It's HER choice!! "

reply from: yoda

The ecstasy video clip? And that relates to abortion........ exactly how?

reply from: faithman

When your done with the fun kill the son

reply from: yoda

No, you don't have an argument. All you have is an attitude. And a desire to play a "shill".
shill
noun (plural shills)
Definition:

1. pretended customer or gambler: an accomplice who pretends to be an interested customer or gambler in order to lure others into buying or gambling

reply from: whydeath

This is somewhere along the lines of the pro-aborts not wanting to believe the pictures of aborted fetuses are real.
We can not get in the minds of the proaborts out there so hun guess we will never know.

reply from: whydeath

Well I have missed a lot having being gone for a few weeks.
Looks like there are some new peps here and of course the same old name calling.

reply from: faithman

This is somewhere along the lines of the pro-aborts not wanting to believe the pictures of aborted fetuses are real.
We can not get in the minds of the proaborts out there so hun guess we will never know.
You can't get into something that does not exist.

reply from: 4given

Welcome back whydeath

reply from: pookiy1980

Oh silly me I thought you were talking tome casue I was out too

reply from: whydeath

Thanks!
Well welcome back to you too pookiy1980

reply from: Schillinator

Hi there. Let me answer some MORE of your questions since you are incredibly interested and clearly dig me so much. Then I will proceed with several of my own.
1. Yes, my daughter who is now 6 months old appears to be a baby. She has all appendages, seems to be a conscious human being, and poops a lot. I am not 100% sure yet, but I think if I give this creature another year or so, I should be able to tell if what was in my wife's belly was/is a baby. Good question though.
2. It is ok for women to kill a baby if they choose to do so. Why you ask? Because me or the kind folks on this here website have no right to tell a mother what to do, it's a WOMAN'S CHOICE.
3. Murder after birth is a seperate issue, especially if the baby creature passed through the MAGIC VAGINA. THen you're talking about magic, and that's acceptable. Kind of like some of the magic in your book you like so much.
Now, a question or two for you.
1) What in the hell do you people do when people like me are not in these little forums? I've posted just for 2 days and everyone has focused ALL their attention on me. Must be boring when it's exclusively right wing zealots chatting together (although Fartman does seem to hate just about everyone, and vice versa)
2). Why are you so concerned with my opinion anyway? After all, according to you, I kill babies daily and eat them for my meals.

reply from: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

I really don't understand what point it is you're trying to make here. Would you mind sharing the "facts of nature" you believe are relevant to this discussion? Are you implying that society has no right to become involved in "personal" decisions wherein innocent others are harmed? Parents who feel justified in abusing their children, as well as husbands who feel justified in beating their wives into submission have historically taken this exact same view. Why should our society have a right to interfere in these situations, thereby "imposing" societal values on those who do not agree with the validity of those values?
First--I sincerely appreciate your response. I also would like to commend your signature quote.
The facts of nature I was referring to is (my belief) that there are many types of people; evolutionary speaking (and no, I am not making a case for eugenics here). I believe that humans have the ability to evolve on a path of higher consciousness; of self reflection, understanding and discovery. This path is only attainable when one can truly understand and attempt to comprehend the nature of the one true God. It is these people who have "evolved" Evolution is not a thousand year process; it can happen in the blink of an eye.
Communication is a key component to this path; it is a tool that enables us to understand ourselves as both a person and as a member of a community. This, I believe, to be a fact of nature.
Yes, it is unfortunate that there are some who attempt to justify their actions through "inalieable rights" (i.e. the right to punish; the right to abuse; the right to tax; etc). However, I do not see any difference when justification is attempted through "belief". Islam believes it should punish women for eliciting sexual desire in men--why else do they force their women to stay cloaked in a burka?
As previously stated, the decision of abortion, albeit good or bad, right or wrong, is one that a woman should be permitted to make on her own; based on her own self interest. It is the conclusion of her own decision processes. Perhaps she feels uncapable, perhaps she feels trapped, perhaps she feels ashamed. I'm sure we can all agree that these are unfortunate circumstances. It is these justifications she will use upon her OWN judgement day; if God so decrees, she will spend an eternity in Dante's inferno (old testament), or she may come back as a cow (Hindu reincarnation) or she may come back as another woman faced with a similar decision. I believe God is a teacher; not an executioner. What I sense is that many people wish to "save" her from this judgement, for is this not a traditional Christian value?
Unfortunately, I am too cynical to believe that people wish to save a baby's life for the sake of saving a life. Baby's are cute. Baby's have all the potential in the world. The next fetus aborted could have come up with a cure for cancer if given the chance; it could have also been Hitler. If people were truly interested in the salvation of brothers and sisters of the human race, than we should see much more action from people regarding genocides in places such as Africa; we would never execute another criminal; we would not see our urban centers in the state they are currently in.
What I want to know is, where is the desire to "save" the people who are already here? People suffer every day (a basic tenet in the Buddhist philosophy), however, nothing gets done (I'm thinking of the Katrina disaster); in the pro-life/pro-choice debate, I see selfish interests at play.
Education is a tool. Unfortunately, so is a coat hanger.
The Problem is that the right you want for a woman doesn't only effect a woman.
We aren't here to destroy the feeling of american community, or to limit womens rights. We don't want the women back in the kitchen.
Right now women earn more degrees then men, and within 5 years at this rate women will earn more Masters and PHD's then men.
Women are constantly leaping further and further, and to say abortion is what empowers women to do that is foolish. Abortion only harms women and their child.
The fact of the matter is america uses legistlature to stop people from two things : Harming themselves, and Harming others. Abortion does both.
In the same way someone should have the bodily autonomy to shoot heroine they should have the right to have an abortion. Sadly in both cases its bad for the user, abortion or heroine. Also, The abortion killing a baby things.
We aren't argueing this for ourselves, in fact Pro-lifers (like myself and others) generally pay out of pocket for our work. The pro-choicers want abortion legal so they can either have sex with no fear of reprocussions, or to make money off of abortion. The pro-choice side is the selfish side.
We absoultely need to worry about poverty, I myself am in the not-so-pleasant areas of Bmore rather often. The dreaded druid hills and such. Its not all pretty, and being white in the ghetto usually ain't too fun either.
The problem is what I see when I am down there is usually, but not always, one of two things. A family who could rise above their situation and make life better for themselves, but choose not too. Or a family trying to rise above their situation but being held back because of the hate/racism/disapproval of the upper-white-class society. Even Planned Parenthood had a board director back in the 90's quit because she was tired of listening to all the upper execs (who were white) talking about how they could control the minorities and make sure black women weren't 'breeding'.
Sadly, its more proof that the abortion industry isn't all about womens rights. Maybe upperclass white womens rights, but thats not good enough to defend abortion.
Abortion, on the otherhand doesn't give that unborn child a CHANCE to rise above the situation he is in. The unborn child cannot even TRY to hide from his killers like the people attacked in the durfar genocide. That unborn child is simply a victim with no hope. That is where the problem comes in.
Once we have defended the most BASIC right , the right to LIVE, then we can focus on the other social issues. Sadly the other social issues pale in compairison to 4000 babies being killed each day.
Besides, such a disrespect for life like that is also to blame for the lack of respect of life in others areas where poverty previals.
Why should a person in the ghetto be afraid to shoot his pregnant girlfriend in the stomach since she won't have an abortion, its not a kid anyways right?

reply from: Schillinator

No, you don't have an argument. All you have is an attitude. And a desire to play a "shill".
shill
You're clever, young master. Come, join the dark side....and feel the POWAAAAAHH!!!!
Your mom called, she wants her basement back.
noun (plural shills)
Definition:

1. pretended customer or gambler: an accomplice who pretends to be an interested customer or gambler in order to lure others into buying or gambling

reply from: Schillinator

Dang Schillinator, I thought you said that you had your daughter??? I guess I am confused have you been involved in an abortion???
I HAVE a daughter and have not been involved in an abortion. Yoda-vater is just digging calling me a baby killer....typing keeps his hands occupied and off his junk and his PS2.

reply from: yoda

Pookiy, I don't think the shillinator is worth our time, he brings nothing but trollish comments to the forum.

reply from: AshMarie88

So you'd have no problem if your partner decided to slaughter your daughter? Because obviously women have the right to do what they want because it's HER OWN baby.

reply from: AshMarie88

Because we all know the woman's offspring is the woman's own body. *rolls eyes*

reply from: Jagger1

On what planet are these considered to be "inalienable rights?" I really don't see a point here either. As an aside, Islamic women dress as they do out of modesty, and it is a custom for them as well. Muslim women are not forced to wear the burkha
in countries where it is not the custom. Muslim women in the U.S. may continue to wear it if they choose, but it is not a religious mandate. Of course, most religions teach that women should dress modestly. This is not a strictly Muslim phenomena.
How is this any different from a woman's decision to abandon her born child, abuse her born child, or have sex with minors? I agree that people will always attempt to rationalize their choices, but that doesn't mean society must allow those choices, even when they involve harming others, does it? You are basically stating your beliefs here, but making no attempt to logically defend your position. OK, so you believe women should be allowed to decide for themselves what to do, regardless of whether it is right or wrong. Why? Does this only apply to abortion? Why would it not apply to other choices?
Yeah, that's all fine and good, but I'm not concerned with any afterlife here. The abortions I oppose are happening in this life. Surely you aren't contending that our society should not attempt to devise and enforce laws that are intended to protect people, but leave all that to some form of Kharma?
I really don't understand this line of reasoning. Would you object to laws prohibiting rape just because you don't think people really care about women? Why would you think people don't want to save babies "for the sake of saving a life," and what relevance would people's presumed motivations have to the ethics of allowing them to be killed? If I try to save your life, will you resist until you are satisfied my motives are pure? I doubt it!
What is the point here? Isn't the same true of a toddler or a teenager? Is this supposed to somehow justify killing them? I honestly don't get the point...
So, should we not attempt to intervene in other cases where human beings are being killed because you feel we are not doing enough in another instance? By this same "logic," one might argue that we must not sincerely care about others if we allow our own citizens to kill their own offspring, therefore our motives must be questionable in any attempt to help our "brothers and sisters" who are victims of genocide and other crimes against humanity in other parts of the world. This argument reminds me of the script flipping my kids try to do when they get into trouble. They say "but he did that, and you did nothing!" Obviously this is no defense against the infraction now being dealt with, it is simply an attempt at diversion.
Unborn children are "already here." I want to save all people. Why would you assume otherwise? If I tried to run into a burning building in order to attempt to save someone, would you object to my doing so based on the fact that so many in the world need help, and I was doing nothing for them at that instant? It just makes no sense.

reply from: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

JAGGER
Respond to what I said about your post.
Don't just ignore it.

reply from: Teresa18

CP,
I believe Jagger1 did respond to your response. He just did it in an odd way. For most of the post there are two quote boxes separated by your response. His response is always in block one. Here's what he does. At the beginning, he quotes you. Then he puts his response in a quote box. Then he puts his original post to you in a quote box, leaves your response out of a quote box, and he puts his response to your response in a quote box. Sorry for my poor explaination.

reply from: pookiy1980

HONEST BUT SICK. YOUR DAUGHTER WAS ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES.
HOW? IT IS THE MOTHERS CHOICE RIGHT?
FOR ME IT IS HARD TO IMAGING SOMEONE THINKING IT IS OK TO KILL. I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD MURDER IS WRONG. BUT DO NOT WORRY YOU WILL NOT BE FED ANYMORE.
I GUESS THIS WAS INTENDED FOR SOMEONE ELSE BECAUSE I KNOW I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT YOU KILLING BABYS (ONLY SUPPORTING IT) AND YOUR LAST BIT OF SARCASM IS LAME.

reply from: pookiy1980

Pookiy, I don't think the shillinator is worth our time, he brings nothing but trollish comments to the forum.
AGREED
I WILL NOT FEED THE TROLLS LOL!

reply from: whydeath

WOW! you guys are still arguing about this?
Like Yodacaver said this shillinator is not worth our time!!!! You know what he stands for and trying to reason with this type will drive you mad.

reply from: yoda

Hey, "Yodacaver"....... I kinda like that....... sounds like one of those cave explorer dudes.....

reply from: whydeath

Hey, "Yodacaver"....... I kinda like that....... sounds like one of those cave explorer dudes.....
....oops I made a booboo!!! I appologize!


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