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Those who have had abortions and prolife activism

What we don't need to do

by: carolemarie

Those who have had abortions and now are pro-life don't have to go around apologizing for their choice to other pro-lifers. The fact that we are now pro-life should tell you that we regret our choice. We believe it was wrong or we would still be pro-choice.
Those of us who speak do so to reach women who are considering abortion or who have experienced abortion and are suffering from their choice. So our testimony is why (our reasons) what it was like(the actually experience) the aaftermath of that choice (what pain and misery it brought us) and our healing (God's mercy) that part is optional depending on the forum. (We don't want the media to say religion gave us guilt.)
It IS hard to go public about a very personal and painful choice. It is difficult to take the abuse that prolifers want to hand out to us and that the prochoicers hand out to us. But we do it to help our sisters NOT make the same bad choice.
It is sufficient to say, "I regret my abortion" . It is an intensely personal fight for us, more than it is for those of you who have'n't personally lived through it. If you believe that we need to be involved in prolife stuff because we owe it to our children, that isn't true. That is bad theology. Jesus made sufficent payment. We are innocent in God's sight now. We are not who we were and there is no condemnation in Christ.
God will work justice. What we need to worry about is reaching out to those at the clinic, and trying to end this. But we chould do it in a spirit of love and kindness, like our God.

reply from: yoda

You make a very poor victim. I just can't work up any pity for you at all.
NO ONE has asked for any apology from you, and quite frankly I don't think it would be sincere anyway.
Now, go out and celebrate all those "heathen babies" that will be aborted today.. I know you're happy about that.

reply from: faithman

Then keep your personal life personal. We don't need to hear anybodies history to understand why they are pro-life now. We would not have known about 3 babies killed, until you just start talking down to folk , how you know better because you have done the deed. I am pro-life because 3 to 4 thousand womb children died of a mother's choice today. When we stop that, then we can spend time on all the other issues. The focus must be first, last ,and always the womb child until they are legally protected.

reply from: carolemarie

Originally posted by: yodavater
You make a very poor victim. I just can't work up any pity for you at all.
NO ONE has asked for any apology from you, and quite frankly I don't think it would be sincere anyway.
Now, go out and celebrate all those "heathen babies" that will be aborted today.. I know you're happy about that
Why would I be glad any baby was aborted? And they are neither heathen or christian, they are innocent, and of course in heaven.
I am not a victim and that is not the point I am trying to make. My point is that your attitudes toward 50 million women suck and is part of the problem...
The whole point of the post is that you guys keep harping on punishment. I think faithman calls in boohoo monents and slobbering killer moms.
You need to focus on reaching the woman seeking an abortion because you have to reach her to save the baby. Making her mad/upset is not going to help you reach her. That is why I keep saying you need to be kind to her so she will listen! And since over half the women who come to the clinic have had a previous abortion, you need to be aware of how she thinks so you can reach her.
If you are talking to a woman at the clinic, you need to make the conversation about why this is bad for her. She needs to be the focus. She is there because she is selfish, abortion is a totally selfish choice, it's all about you.
Tellling a self-absorbed person that she needs to consider her child is a waste of time unless you can present it as how this will help her, or how this choice will hurt her. You are there to help her, rather than save babies.
It doesn't matter if that is not the truth, as long as you can convince her that it is. The graphic signs work against you, the baby in the womb are the best ones to use. Men can have a great effect at the clinic if they will listen to the woman and pretend to care about her reasons. Each of you know the reasons are weak, still you need to listen and reflect that back to her, (active listening) by saying things like, you feel trapped and overwhelmed and I understand that but we will help you with the medical bills, or whatever her pesonal issue is. Women like to be listened to. (Ask your wives if you don't believe me) Saying things or acting in ways that provoke her, such as trying to intimidate her by filming her will make her mad at you and in to the clinic she will go.
And if the woman still goes in, be nice when she comes out. At that point she knows that what you told her was true, and if you are kind, you might be able to prevent the next abortion.
Thats why your attitudes matter! And you guys are hard hearted toward the moms who you need to reach.

reply from: carolemarie

To save the baby, you need to reach the woman.Look, I don't think I know better because I had an abortion, I think that I know better because I have been standing out in front of the clinic for 12 years talking to the women. I have seen all kinds of things done and tried and I have seen what actually works. The best sucess is with the pro-woman outreach. Like the graphic vs the I am a person pictures. The I am a person works better. Being kind works better than being hard.
Just like all of you, I would like to shake these women and say whats the matter with you!!!! ARe you insane, how can you think killing a baby will make your life better?? But that doesn't get the results I want. I want that baby to live and that woman to change her mind about buying death and misery. So I have learned that I need to be kind and gentle and all about her. When we did, the saves went up. And ultimately it is all about her, will she let her baby live or will she not let her baby live. It is all up to her, and we can help her do right or make her mad and help her choose evil.

reply from: faithman

To save the baby, you need to reach the woman.Look, I don't think I know better because I had an abortion, I think that I know better because I have been standing out in front of the clinic for 12 years talking to the women. I have seen all kinds of things done and tried and I have seen what actually works. The best sucess is with the pro-woman outreach. Like the graphic vs the I am a person pictures. The I am a person works better. Being kind works better than being hard.
Just like all of you, I would like to shake these women and say whats the matter with you!!!! ARe you insane, how can you think killing a baby will make your life better?? But that doesn't get the results I want. I want that baby to live and that woman to change her mind about buying death and misery. So I have learned that I need to be kind and gentle and all about her. When we did, the saves went up. And ultimately it is all about her, will she let her baby live or will she not let her baby live. It is all up to her, and we can help her do right or make her mad and help her choose evil.
WWWWWELLLL your getting better. I would drop the "I know better than anyone else" thing. There are people who have been doing this for just as long if not longer. It is not, nor ever will be about killer mom, it is about the womb child. I have no problem reaching mom to save baby. But reaching mom is secondary to saving baby. We can not afford to devalue the womb child in anyway. The ultimate goal is to give equal, and legal personhood to the pre-born. I have see the harsh work, as well as the kind. I have found that both work best together. Kindness is sweeter when one has already experianced the harsh. The law of moses came before the grace truth and mercy of Christ. Justice then mercy.

reply from: yoda

Didn't you just say that without religion, abortion is "amoral and justified"? Why, that's just as good as an endorsement from MoonWoman!
I'm not "you guys", and I've said NOT ONE WORD about punishment... but the truth never stopped you yet, did it?
Self-appointed "experts" do not impress me. I've seen dozens of women whose hearts have been changed by seeing the photos of aborted babies shown by the GAP displays. I KNOW they work. There are many ways to "reach" women, and appealing to their conscience is the BEST way, IMO.
I simply can't believe you. You addressed this to me, and how many times have I told you we CAN'T TALK TO THE CUSTOMERS where I picket? Ten? Fifteen? How many times must I tell you that????
Of course they matter. And for men, the attitude of "protectiveness" towards all babies and children is the BEST attitude they can display..... that IS the natural role of men in families and in society.

reply from: ThomasRNV

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Of course they matter. And for men, the attitude of "protectiveness" towards all babies and children is the BEST attitude they can display..... that IS the natural role of men in families and in society.
I have to agree with you there.
Also Carolemarie, you mentioned punishmet. I just thought up something, semi punishment. It could be just that I'm bitter from my expeirence but. I say if woman has an abortion for any reason (except saving her own life after all measures were taken to try & save both lives) That she should have to have her tubes tied. That would definately make women think twice. You choose abortion, than I say you've proven yourself unworthy of Ever being a mom.
Oh please forgive the uhh kinda heartless attitude I have, mine was ripped out, torn to shreds & thrown in a dumpster with my daughter. That & all these God Damn fathers day commercials.
Actually what I'd like to do is have every single abortion doctor prosecuted for mass murder & given the death sentence. I am Pro Life, but only when it comes to the innocent. As far as Im concerned once you take the life of another, you've given up all of your rights & I no longer view you as human.
God, how I'd love to see a news report saying a Pro Choice rally with millions of Femi Nazis was hit by a meteor or something.
please ignore bad spelling. i have had very little sleep, & don't want to go back to sleep. I'm tired of being aborted over & over again in my dreams.

reply from: xnavy

i have sympathy for you thomas for the pain you are in, my brother's now ex wife had 3 abortions before he knew it, thats why she
is his ex wife. i hate the law that says a woman can have an abortion w/o telling her husband or the father of the child.

reply from: yoda

Been there, dreamed about that too, Thomas. I lost a child of my own that way. What you're talking about is "poetic justice", and it's the stuff of dreams for me too.

reply from: Shiprahagain

We have responsibilities to our children that go beyond thelogy. We also have Bible mandated responsibilities to our children. So I'm asking you Carol, what attitude should we have towards forgiven rapists?

reply from: JaysonsMom

Yes, the law is wrong in my eyes. It takes two to create a child, it shouldn't be up to one to decide the child's fate. Men have been treated so poorly in this regard, it breaks my heart. Equality means just that; the father should be in every decision 100%.
Thomas, I'm so very sorry for your loss and my heart goes out to you during this difficult time. I know that Sunday will be so hard for you and I just want you to know that I'll try to log in often in case you need to vent or chat or anything else. God bless you.
Amy

reply from: Shiprahagain

Shut up. Seriously. Just shut up. Thomas, you may want to report this jerk to the moderator or put him on ignore so that you don't have to put up with his utter nonsense. There are many men and women who would think of suicide when they not only a) lost a child and b) were expected to just deal with it and move on

reply from: ThomasRNV

Do you really believe that YOU weren't a good part of her reason to abort?
I know I was'nt. She told me that. Right after she apalogized.
Does any woman need a disturbed, warped, weak, worthless suicide-waiting-to-happen as a husband?
NO. Good thing I never was that before the ab. In fact she was a stay at home wife to be whom
Does any child need an unbalanced fruitballoon - as well as a continual whiner - for a father?
No again. What's with rhetorical questions. You ever lose a kid. no, Then SHUT THE ***** UP. You baby murdering filth spewing maggot.
In an ideal world, every woman would find a sound, grounded, reliable strong shoulder for a husband. Every child would have a responsible, nurturing, stable man as a father. Where do you figure into THAT picture?
What the hell would a baby killer know about being responsible or nurturing. Or in your twisted is tearing an human child apart limb from limb responsible?
Clearly you played a MAJOR role in her decision to abort. Who would choose a shrieking drama queen as a husband? What could you possible have to offer a child?
First you don't know me. I've made maybe 5 posts on here. For the record she lied to me till 2 days after the abortion. Turns out this was her third abortion, 1st with me. I had no say in it. Atleast this happened before marriage so I did'nt have to waste all that money on her, I guess that's a silver lining. I can now afford to go on a that Europe vacation with my friends.
What could I offer a kid. I don't know a lot better than a baby killer like yourself for one. Hmm financial security. Expierence raising my younger sister. 14 & already looking into college, so proud of her. Oh and after the ab I dumped the murderer. For some reason the bitch thought she could kill my kid & we'd be just fine, Turns out she just wanted consequence free sex & a sugar-daddy. Guess that whore got slapped with reality hard time. Last I heard she moved in with her mommy & is still jobless
A drama queen. Please. The net's just a nice little outlet for my thoughts.
Insulting others for having emotional problems from losing their child is'nt very muture. So when are they gonna kick you off the school computers?
And please if my suicide attempt was an attention stunt thing, then why is it that no one but the friend who found me knows about it IRL. By your logic I should've told my entire family by now.
Oh I just thought of something you Pro Aborts like to say, something like "How can you judge aborton if you've never had one" Well, Don't judge suicide till you try it.
You see a real man knows how to hold all these things in for the ones they care about. But this is the internet & I could'nt care less what people think of me here, because like I said before you don't know me.
Just curious why you fealt it necesarry to insult me. Did it make you feel better about yourself?
Oh, Ship, thanks for standing up for me but, it's not necesary. You see ignorant fools like Spin need to insult others to validate themselves. And people like me, find it Extremely amusing. I've been laughing nearly the whole time I read that*****filled post of Spins.
This was a fun waste of 5 mins.

reply from: 4given

It was 5 minutes you could have used to promote LIFE, dignity and healing.. part of healing is anger though. It is unfair to be attacked in such a way, but this is truly a ploy to distract you and discourage you from the greater cause that you serve! Don't feel discouraged.. Don't let any hateful ramblings divert your attention from the life you seek to protect. God has called you into His service.. although by a tragedy in your own life.. never mind getting over the betrayal of a loved one.. but to find out she murdered part of you.. You can't get over that.. I don't assume so anyway. Use your experience and anger and passion in an even mightier way. I have read your posts and I see that you are already trying to establish yourself as a source of comfort, insight and healing to others... first you have to heal yourself. I grieve for you.. Through God (and His service as you are doing.. ) we shall do valiantly: for He is it that whom shall tread down our enemies. Psalm 60:12 And I will pray for you. Don't be discouraged! Keep up the fight! It isn't you that is being attacked, it is the righteousness within you.

reply from: Teresa18

Way to stand up for yourself, Thomas! Spinny is full of so much hate and anger that I can personally feel it when I read her posts. She enjoys taking that hate and anger out on innocent, little children. I can tell you would have made a great father, and I'm glad you got away from your ex. Three abortions, wow!

reply from: faithman

OOOOHHH but she has a great future in "prolife". All she has to do is say I am so sorry about killing a child. Then she could spend her time talking at CPC banquets. Wouldn't even have to change the ole vocabulary much.

reply from: faithman

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
I've never killed a child. I've never had an abortion, either.
Then I guess you weren't the one being talked too huhh.

reply from: JaysonsMom

Thomas, don't listen to such mindless, hate-filled drivel. You know you're a good person and most of us appreciate you and are glad that you're here. Most of us are happy to be the shoulder you need or the ear when you need to vent. A select group of haters here will give you a hard time. Putting them on ignore and reporting the rude posts was really great advice; I hope you'll do both of those things.
Anyway, I think you stood up for yourself in a great, adult manner, unlike the person who attacked you. That shows that you're a better and bigger person. Great job and I look forward to your future posts.
Amy

reply from: carolemarie

I simply can't believe you. You addressed this to me, and how many times have I told you we CAN'T TALK TO THE CUSTOMERS where I picket? Ten? Fifteen? How many times must I tell you that????
Two things.
1. I am not sure what you mean by talking to them. You can't use a mike and call out to them? You can't just call out across the parking lot? If so that is one hard mill!
I am sure that you already have what you want to say to them on a big sign right? And would you agree that you can't afford to take any measure that will make them mad? If so, the camera idea will not help. you
2. Do women change their minds? It would help you evaluate your methods if you made friends with the CPC director and they will tell you how many came in and what they said changed their minds. In the two minutes you have you need to make as big as an impact as you can to reach her.
My other comment about GAP is that changing your mind when you are not pregnant is the best time to see those signs. It works great in those venues. It is a different venue at the clinic.

reply from: carolemarie

OOOOHHH but she has a great future in "prolife". All she has to do is say I am so sorry about killing a child. Then she could spend her time talking at CPC banquets. Wouldn't even have to change the ole vocabulary much.
Sadly that is a true statement. Why does the prolife movement want to hear those stories? I have never understood it. You think it would promote the raising of funds to have a woman they helped avoid abortion speak.

reply from: carolemarie

To save the baby, you need to reach the woman.Look, I don't think I know better because I had an abortion, I think that I know better because I have been standing out in front of the clinic for 12 years talking to the women. I have seen all kinds of things done and tried and I have seen what actually works. The best sucess is with the pro-woman outreach. Like the graphic vs the I am a person pictures. The I am a person works better. Being kind works better than being hard.
Just like all of you, I would like to shake these women and say whats the matter with you!!!! ARe you insane, how can you think killing a baby will make your life better?? But that doesn't get the results I want. I want that baby to live and that woman to change her mind about buying death and misery. So I have learned that I need to be kind and gentle and all about her. When we did, the saves went up. And ultimately it is all about her, will she let her baby live or will she not let her baby live. It is all up to her, and we can help her do right or make her mad and help her choose evil.
WWWWWELLLL your getting better. I would drop the "I know better than anyone else" thing. There are people who have been doing this for just as long if not longer. It is not, nor ever will be about killer mom, it is about the womb child. I have no problem reaching mom to save baby. But reaching mom is secondary to saving baby. We can not afford to devalue the womb child in anyway. The ultimate goal is to give equal, and legal personhood to the pre-born. I have see the harsh work, as well as the kind. I have found that both work best together. Kindness is sweeter when one has already experianced the harsh. The law of moses came before the grace truth and mercy of Christ. Justice then mercy.
What works best at the clinic you go to? What do you do? How can reaching mom be seconday to saving baby? They are in fact the same thing. If you don't reach mom the baby dies.

reply from: carolemarie

Of course they matter. And for men, the attitude of "protectiveness" towards all babies and children is the BEST attitude they can display..... that IS the natural role of men in families and in society.
I have to agree with you there.
Also Carolemarie, you mentioned punishmet. I just thought up something, semi punishment. It could be just that I'm bitter from my expeirence but. I say if woman has an abortion for any reason (except saving her own life after all measures were taken to try & save both lives) That she should have to have her tubes tied. That would definately make women think twice. You choose abortion, than I say you've proven yourself unworthy of Ever being a mom.
Oh please forgive the uhh kinda heartless attitude I have, mine was ripped out, torn to shreds & thrown in a dumpster with my daughter. That & all these God Damn fathers day commercials.
Actually what I'd like to do is have every single abortion doctor prosecuted for mass murder & given the death sentence. I am Pro Life, but only when it comes to the innocent. As far as Im concerned once you take the life of another, you've given up all of your rights & I no longer view you as human.
God, how I'd love to see a news report saying a Pro Choice rally with millions of Femi Nazis was hit by a meteor or something.
please ignore bad spelling. i have had very little sleep, & don't want to go back to sleep. I'm tired of being aborted over & over again in my dreams.
I have a great deal of empathy for you as well. I am so sorry that your child was killed and she didn't evey bother to tell you about it. That was horrible.
You are not alone in this, sadly many men have been in your shoes. I have watched Dad's stand in the parking lot and cry in total anguish for what their girlfriend is doing!
There is no quick fix for the pain you are in, but there is help specifical designed for men. I will try to find you the link.
I will be praying for you,
Carole

reply from: carolemarie

I don't get the question, if a rapist becomes a Christian we should treat them like any forgiven sinner.
Is that what you are asking?

reply from: 4given

What works best at the clinic you go to? What do you do? How can reaching mom be seconday to saving baby? They are in fact the same thing. If you don't reach mom the baby dies.
I agree w/ that... having just hung up the phone w/ a new aquaintance asking about my opinion on rape... not knowing her very well.. I still can't and will not sugar-coat the issue.. A life is a life.. but besides that.. Educating her will hopefully lead to her informing others.. Reaching the woman is the 1st step..for those who aren't guided or happen to be mislead...What other hope do they have? Do we have? Because she can ultimately decide what is best, in her fragile state.. who can rely on that judgment?.. Why it is so valuable to lead her to a clear understanding about abortion.. the act and the aftermath.. Teach Momma the facts and she will come to the realization that she actually is not "secondary" but maybe equal to the life w/in her? .. or maybe.. not even.. just show her the way..
The fact that the child itself (and the contemplation of murdering that child) is less of a cosideration...over mom and her issues.. it is disturbing .. but it is my understanding that w/out the facts any man or woman can seek justification wherever and however they seem fit. Education is the key...

reply from: Shiprahagain

First, I just want to clarify that you aren't "on trial" with me -- I'm just curious about your opinion. Secondly, my question was what language, behavior, attitude, etc. is appropriate/inappropriate towards other criminals who then become Christians?

reply from: carolemarie

First, I just want to clarify that you aren't "on trial" with me -- I'm just curious about your opinion. Secondly, my question was what language, behavior, attitude, etc. is appropriate/inappropriate towards other criminals who then become Christians?
Thanks for saying that.
If a rapist is now a Christian, we should treat them like anyone else. But I would be afraid of them being around my daughter! I would trust them with caution??? Rape is hard for me. Child molesters as well. . Rape and child molestation are sicknessess as well as sin and a crime. Someone who is sick could relapse. We have to protect all people. I find those two crimes really offensive and I have to ask God to give me love in my heart for people in that type of sick bondage.
But forgiveness isn't an option for a Christian.

reply from: yoda

Not really, but YOUR attitude is the true signature of a REAL WHORE, IMO...... and typical of why it's risky to open up about your personal life on a forum such a this, with such sewer trash as yourself just waiting to pounce on people when they do.

reply from: yoda

It's all they have, Thomas. Who can defend baby killing? Making personal attacks on those who try to defend babies is ALL THEY HAVE.

reply from: yoda

The use of a bullhorn would be construed as "disturbing the peace", as you ought to know by now. That leaves us with shouting, not a very "friendly" way to start a conversation. The mill is "hard", but the judge's injunction against demonstrators there is even harder. After the "rescue" that happened there in the 80's an injunction was issued which prohibits any of us from entering the parking lot, effectively keeping us 150 away from the front door.
Making them "mad" is not a concern. Those that become angry at the sight of the camera still have the same chance as those that show shame and try to hide, to rethink their presence there and their reason for not wanting to be photographed. Anger at us has nothing to do with anger at their baby, their baby does not have a camera. It's the same with a baby of rape.... the baby had nothing to do with the rape, did it? And the baby has nothing to do with my camera, either!
Some women do indeed change their minds. They get back in their cars and leave, some without even getting out, and some after only a moment or two in the parking lot. But they drive right on by us, we never get to talk to them about why they change their minds. The CPC right next door considers us "street rabble" and will not help us in any way. I have in fact heard of some of their councilors actually referring women to the abortion clinic when the women were determined to have an abortion. So the CPC is actually more closely aligned with the abortuary than with us.
GAP works very well for both pregnant and non pregnant women, IMO. Yes, some women who've had abortions are shocked to see what they've actually done, and in that sense the truth will hurt them emotionally. But that is a good "hurt", because facing the truth is always the right thing to do. Only after you're done that can you begin to seek forgiveness and healing.

reply from: carolemarie

The use of a bullhorn would be construed as "disturbing the peace", as you ought to know by now. That leaves us with shouting, not a very "friendly" way to start a conversation. The mill is "hard", but the judge's injunction against demonstrators there is even harder. After the "rescue" that happened there in the 80's an injunction was issued which prohibits any of us from entering the parking lot, effectively keeping us 150 away from the front door.
Making them "mad" is not a concern. Those that become angry at the sight of the camera still have the same chance as those that show shame and try to hide, to rethink their presence there and their reason for not wanting to be photographed. Anger at us has nothing to do with anger at their baby, their baby does not have a camera. It's the same with a baby of rape.... the baby had nothing to do with the rape, did it? And the baby has nothing to do with my camera, either!
Some women do indeed change their minds. They get back in their cars and leave, some without even getting out, and some after only a moment or two in the parking lot. But they drive right on by us, we never get to talk to them about why they change their minds. The CPC right next door considers us "street rabble" and will not help us in any way. I have in fact heard of some of their councilors actually referring women to the abortion clinic when the women were determined to have an abortion. So the CPC is actually more closely aligned with the abortuary than with us.
GAP works very well for both pregnant and non pregnant women, IMO. Yes, some women who've had abortions are shocked to see what they've actually done, and in that sense the truth will hurt them emotionally. But that is a good "hurt", because facing the truth is always the right thing to do. Only after you're done that can you begin to seek forgiveness and healing.
You all need to work on peace between the CPC and your outreach!

reply from: Shiprahagain

As a non sequitor -- I just wanted to let you know, Carole, that even though I'm curious about your beliefs and may not always agree I am proud of you for your activism and I certainly do see you as an ally whether or not you've had an abortion.

reply from: carolemarie

I agree with the principle of reaching out to people in love., and being kind.

reply from: yoda

We had a "peaceful coexistence" for a long time with them, we tried to send customers to them, and I even made a small monthly contribution. But they broke that peaceful coexistence a few months ago, one Saturday when they were closed. One of our protesters who brings a heavy wooden cross parked his pickup in their empty lot, intending to leave it there only a couple hours (knowing that they were closed that day). One of their employees happened to come to the CPC while his truck was there and ordered him to move it. She knew he'd only be there another hour, and she knew they were closed. That sent us the message loud and clear that they considered us "beneath" them. They're on their own now, as far as I'm concerned.

reply from: faithman

I had a pastor who's church was real close to the PP referal clinic. He was all for putting a sign on the church's property that had Care Net contact info on it. I had the material for the sign. All Care Net had to do, was give permission to put their info on the sign. They refused because we picket the abortion clinic. I am a very experianced remodeler. The CPC was doing some work, and asked for volunteers. They went on and on how they needed help. I showed up with a truck load of material and tools, and 30 years experiance. They told me they didn't need any more help. I found out from a freind who is a volunteer at CPC that it was because I was a known protestor, and they don't assosciate with "that crowd" in anyway. I called them on the carpet about calling us devisive, and the bible says that a person has the right to face their accusers. They refused to meet with me, and continued to slander me in the comunity. I offered to put their info on the back of an I AM A PERSON card and hand them out. They also refused. They are the ones with the policy that says they won't work with me, andf yet I am devisive? Go figure? Not all CPC's have that policy. Some allow their volunteers to picket. But it is totally unfair to sugest that the pickateers get right with the CPC crowd, when it is the CPC crowd who refuse to do it. The individual person on the street is our biggest asset in this struggle, and they are the most neglected. We starve them down for materials, and yet demand that they give their coinage and time to money pits, that do not provide much more than a PR campain of how wonderful they are. If all the money that they use to produce the little begger sheet news letters, were put into I AM A PERSON cards, many more minds would be changed, and many babies saved. CPC's suck up way to much resources for the actual pro-life work in return. For the most part, they take away from the personhood of the womb child by putting the focus on mommy dearest. They absolve many from actual pro-life work, by giving them a target for their pocket change. Giving money to a CPC has very little to do with actually saveing the womb child scheduled to die today. For the most part, they acually kick the feet out from under those who truely put it on the line every week at the clinics.

reply from: JaysonsMom

My feelings are that we should be reaching out to both the women and in the child's behalf. While I'm all for spreading the word and message about PL and equality for the unborn child, I'm also for treating the women who have had abortions with respect, kindness, and support. The only way to reach them and help them find the Lord, to encourage them to repent and ask for forgiveness is to do so with a kind heart. I don't condone the abortions but the women are still my fellow human beings who need to find God. I'll help them in anyway I can while still speaking out for the unborn babies.
Amy

reply from: yoda

Yeah, that's pretty much the attitude we've seen here, plus the information I got that some of their volunteers do "give referrals" to the abortion clinic. All in all, they act more like allies of the abortuary than prolifers. I'm pretty disgusted with them.
Down in Chattanooga, however, I do know that one woman from a CPC came to our GAP program on campus, and was quite friendly. So I guess it all depends on the director.

reply from: yoda

Of course. But when they are about to walk in the front door of the abortuary to do it all over again, I think that trying to open their eyes to what they're about to do is top priority.

reply from: JaysonsMom

I agree with you there. If they're a repeat offender (I wish we had a way of knowing), then I'm all for focusing solely on the baby and trying to get them to change their mind, as unlikely as it is.

reply from: carolemarie

Half of the people going in are having a repeat abortion. It is real common for a woman to be conflicted about her abortion, so she gets pregnant again. We call it an atonement baby. But the problems that caused her to abort the first time are still not resolved, so she finds herself back at the clinic. You have to get her to tell you why she is there, what the problem is and then help her solve it so her baby gets to live.
Mothers bringing their daughters are a big problem as well. Most of the mothers have an abortion in their past, and this with the daughter is bringing all this up. They are usually very angry and hostile. It is the best tactic to focus on how this will hurt her daughter, how it hurt her, and how you can help them with a plan so both the baby and the daughter can have a future.

reply from: carolemarie

We had a "peaceful coexistence" for a long time with them, we tried to send customers to them, and I even made a small monthly contribution. But they broke that peaceful coexistence a few months ago, one Saturday when they were closed. One of our protesters who brings a heavy wooden cross parked his pickup in their empty lot, intending to leave it there only a couple hours (knowing that they were closed that day). One of their employees happened to come to the CPC while his truck was there and ordered him to move it. She knew he'd only be there another hour, and she knew they were closed. That sent us the message loud and clear that they considered us "beneath" them. They're on their own now, as far as I'm concerned.
I would still make an appointment with the Director and talk to her, or send one of the women to talk to her. That volunteer may have been acting on her own.

reply from: faithman

Of course. But when they are about to walk in the front door of the abortuary to do it all over again, I think that trying to open their eyes to what they're about to do is top priority.
....and I am for putting killers behind bars, whether the victim is born, or pre-born. But of course justice has no meaning to some. Particularly if they have done the deed. I guess we could only have true justice, by putting killers on the bench. After all, only those who have done the crime truely understand what the criminal is going thru. Wouldn't want to hurt any criminal feelings, now would we?

reply from: nancyu

Of course they matter. And for men, the attitude of "protectiveness" towards all babies and children is the BEST attitude they can display..... that IS the natural role of men in families and in society.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It's not the law that's the problem in that case; it's the wife. What exactly was wrong with her that she fell pregnant THREE TIMES in a monogamous relationship yet couldn't being herself to discuss it with the father? If she just wasn't ready for kids then an understanding therapist and husband could have worked through the process of adoption the FIRST time, and better birth control to prevent the other two deaths.

reply from: Banned Member

I will tell you what bothers me about this post, inasmuch as it is revealing.
Those who have had abortions (I who have had an abortion)
we are now pro-life (I am now pro-life)
We believe (I believe)
our testimony (my testimony)
pain and misery it brought us (pain and misery it brought me)
our healing (my healing)
I regret my abortion
intensely personal fight for us (intensely personal fight for me)
we need to be involved (I need to be involved)
We are innocent (I am innocent)
We are not who we were (I am not who I was)
What we need to worry about (What I need to worry about)
we should do it in a spirit of love (I should do it in a spirit of love)
In this post there were 13 references to self and not one mention that abortion ends the lives of separate unique persons. The only actions and perspective that matters that comes from myself are those solely committed the rights of the other who is unborn. My feelings, what I have done, what I have said, what I have been forgiven or not forgiven and what I will do are meaningless in comparison to the injustice that it being done to the other who is unborn. Their rights, their lives, their actions and unlived lives that are being torn away from them are the only perspective that should matter to our "self". Personal perspective that does not address the unborn is meaningless.

reply from: faithman

I will tell you what bothers me about this post, inasmuch as it is revealing.
Those who have had abortions (I who have had an abortion)
we are now pro-life (I am now pro-life)
We believe (I believe)
our testimony (my testimony)
pain and misery it brought us (pain and misery it brought me)
our healing (my healing)
I regret my abortion
intensely personal fight for us (intensely personal fight for me)
we need to be involved (I need to be involved)
We are innocent (I am innocent)
We are not who we were (I am not who I was)
What we need to worry about (What I need to worry about)
we should do it in a spirit of love (I should do it in a spirit of love)
In this post there were 13 references to self and not one mention that abortion ends the lives of separate unique persons. The only actions and perspective that matters is that what comes from myself is solely commited the rights of the other who is unborn. My feelings, what I have done, what I have said, what I have been forgiven or not forgiven and what I will do are meaningless in comparison to the injustice that it being done to the other who is unborn. Their rights, their lives, their actions and unlived lives that are being torn away from them are the only perspective that should matter to our "self". Personal perspective that does not address the unborn is meaningless.
That was my problem with this from the beginning. "post abortion" is not pro-life. Pro-life puts the baby first. They are in a direct life and death situation. I am all for helping mom's in crisis, and do so quite often. But when someone places more value on the killer than the innocent victim, then yeah, I got a real big problem with that.

reply from: sander

You might want to note this person hasn't been here in over a year...L O L

reply from: faithman

I will tell you what bothers me about this post, inasmuch as it is revealing.
Those who have had abortions (I who have had an abortion)
we are now pro-life (I am now pro-life)
We believe (I believe)
our testimony (my testimony)
pain and misery it brought us (pain and misery it brought me)
our healing (my healing)
I regret my abortion
intensely personal fight for us (intensely personal fight for me)
we need to be involved (I need to be involved)
We are innocent (I am innocent)
We are not who we were (I am not who I was)
What we need to worry about (What I need to worry about)
we should do it in a spirit of love (I should do it in a spirit of love)
In this post there were 13 references to self and not one mention that abortion ends the lives of separate unique persons. The only actions and perspective that matters is that what comes from myself is solely commited the rights of the other who is unborn. My feelings, what I have done, what I have said, what I have been forgiven or not forgiven and what I will do are meaningless in comparison to the injustice that it being done to the other who is unborn. Their rights, their lives, their actions and unlived lives that are being torn away from them are the only perspective that should matter to our "self". Personal perspective that does not address the unborn is meaningless.
That was my problem with this from the beginning. "post abortion" is not pro-life. Pro-life puts the baby first. They are in a direct life and death situation. I am all for helping mom's in crisis, and do so quite often. But when someone places more value on the killer than the innocent victim, then yeah, I got a real big problem with that.

reply from: yoda

Thankfully, we hear that a new director has been appointed, a young man who fully supports street protests AND the use of graphic images of aborted babies. I think it looks very good for future cooperation with them.

reply from: yoda

Extremely well said, Augustine. Sad, but brilliant at the same time.

reply from: ProInformed

"But reaching mom is secondary to saving baby. We can not afford to devalue the womb child in anyway. The ultimate goal is to give equal, and legal personhood to the pre-born."
It's one thing to have to argue with choicers, trying to convince them that concern for the babies does NOT equate to lack of concern for the mothers;
it's ridiculous to have to argue the converse with fellow pro-lifers:
that concern for the mothers does NOT equate to lack of concern for the babies.
It almost sounds as if you may have swallowed the pro-abort lie that mothers and babies are indeed natural enemies?
You are not going to be very effective at convincing pregnant women not to abort as long as you play right into the negative stereotype of pro-lifers being hostile, name-calling, women-haters.
Yes, I do realize that SOME aborting mothers do so willingly minus any anti-choice/pro-abortion pressure being put on them to do so. BUT they are in the minority. MOST aborting women are subjected to pressure to do so AND are lied to about fetal development and what the abortion really does, and are RUSHED to make a 'choice'.
Whether or not you believe it, many of the females who submit to abortion do so because they really do believe and trust the lies about fetal devleopment. Plus there are doctors who tell pregnant women that they have to abort or else they will die (WE KNOW that's a lie but the mothers don't). WHY do you ignore the fact that very few women would submit to abortion if they knew the truth?
Do you guys also cruelly harrass senior citizens who naively trust the con artists who take advantage of their trust to make a buck?
It is a FACT that the number one cause of death to pregnant women is being killed by the baby's father (because the mother refuses to abort). How can you ignore that fact and pretend that all women abort free of coercion? Do you naively assume that the ONLY women who were being bullied into aborting are the ones who ended up dead for refusing to abort?!?!?
I would like to see the pro-life males who post here focusing their efforts MUCH MORE on the fathers of aborted babies than on the mothers. For numerous reasons it is unwsie, inneffective, (and certainly not chivalrous) for pro-life males to hatefully target post-aborted women for harrassment. Pro-abort males need to be confronted by pro-life males, to be challenged and chastised to abandon their sexually promiscuous lifestyle, to care for BOTH the mothers and the babies.
IMHO every time you focus your fury on women who've aborted you are averting your attention away from the pro-abort males that you need to be taking on instead.
Women NEED men to be real heroes in this regard:
Pro-life males who will challenge and mentor pro-abort males into changing their evil ways, thereby dismantling the pro-fornication and pro-abortion pressures those pro-abort males exert on females. We're talking about our daughters, granddaughters, neices; do you REALLY want to call them names and condemn them when you could/SHOULD be focusing on the males who view them as sexual prey/playthings instead?!? THAT is where you efforts are MOST needed (and IMHO most lacking). Are you REALLY the kind of guys who would call your pregnant female child a slut, call her a murderer if you found out she fell prey to the abortion industry's lies and her boyfriend's influence? Or would you focus your fury on the dude who impregnated her and the abortionist who conned her instead?
Again, I am not denying that there are some females who know the truth and abort anyway because they are cold-hearted. I am certainly not opposed to dealing with those sorts more harshly. But lumping ALL women who've had abortions in with the sociopathic females who willingly/knowingly commit abortion is dishonest and dumb IMHO.
There really IS a difference between an unrepentent pro-abort female and a pro-life female who regrets abortion(s) in her past. If YOU can't see that difference than it would be counter-productive to say the least for YOU to attempt outreach to such women!
And believe it or not even having more than one abortion does not necessarily mean a woman is the sociopathic sort, just your average woman faced with immense pressures and being lied to by an industry that cares nothing for the women or babies and/or caught up in a lifestyle that they are indoctrinated into accepting as 'normal' throughout their childhood. I didn't have more than one abortion but I have sisters who did. They did not know the truth (some still don't know and are genuinely afraid to learn now).
If some of you males can't comprehend that distinction than you should focus on pro-life advocacy that you are more informed and prepared for.
BTW, IF I had met pro-life males like you when I became Pro-Informed, when I started to question my pro-choice POV, I'm not sure I would have become pro-life... Fortunately none of the pro-lifers I came in contact with during that period condemned me. I was dissillusioned with the pro-choice movement because I was learning things that revealed they're concern for women was faked and that they had lied to me. I had always heard that pro-lifers cared ONLY about fetuses, cared nothing about women, but the pro-lifers I met were not like that NEGATIVE stereotype. I thank God I didn't meet pro-lifers like you or I would have probably looked no further into the matter.

reply from: ProInformed

"Then keep your personal life personal. We don't need to hear anybodies history to understand why they are pro-life now. We would not have known about 3 babies killed, until you just start talking down to folk , how you know better because you have done the deed. I am pro-life because 3 to 4 thousand womb children died of a mother's choice today. When we stop that, then we can spend time on all the other issues. The focus must be first, last ,and always the womb child until they are legally protected."
And each and every one of those slain babies has a biological father.
Most of those fathers pressured the mother into having sex and into aborting.
"3 to 4 thousand womb children died of a mother's choice today"
And no pro-abort males are involved in any way in that?
Stop pretending that females are subjected to zero pressure to have sex and to have abortions.
Stop pretending that all women who abort are todl the truth about fetal development and what the abortion really does.
Women who refuse to abort are subjected to harrassment, discrimination, being 'dumped', being fired, being kicked out of their home, being beaten up, or even being murdered.
What the pro-life movement needs:
males who will challenge, confront, criticize other males
What the pro-life movement does NOT need:
males who condemn and harrass females who succombed to pro-fornication and pro-abort pessures

reply from: faithman

...and you present things not in evidence. Once again, someone tries to use specific responces to specific issues in a general way. Nor once have I ever said borthead men get a free walk. Your post is totally dishonest. When I am at the clinic, that is exactly what I do. My focas is the borthead men who drag the girls into the clinics. SSSSOOOO don't even start your crap. And quit playing the bort head game of taking specific statements and attributting general intent.

reply from: ProInformed

"...and you present things not in evidence. Once again, someone tries to use specific responces to specific issues in a general way. Nor once have I ever said borthead men get a free walk. Your post is totally dishonest. When I am at the clinic, that is exactly what I do. My focas is the borthead men who drag the girls into the clinics. SSSSOOOO don't even start your crap. And quit
Well, I have never noticed it in your posts so far (haven't read them all) where your emphasis is on challenging pro-abort males instead of females. Maybe I missed that? Or maybe it's just because it is not something you dwell on much here the way so many of your posts target post-aborted pro-life women? Hey, I think it's great that you do challenge pro-abort males sometimes. I think you should do more of that instead of attacking pro-life females who reget aborting in their past.
As to your false accusation/assumption that I am
"playing the bort head game of taking specific statements and attributting general intent"
You've posted a LOT here revealing your negative opinion of, and hostility towards, pro-life women who've had abortions in their past. By contrast, I hadn't noticed you taking on pro-abort males to the same extent. Please provide links to the posts where you are confronting pro-abort males instead of attacking pro-life females.
I am not playing a game, least of all a 'borthead' game. However, harrassing females who used to be 'pro-choice', but now regret allowing their babies to be killed by abortion IS a common pro-abort tactic isn't it? hm..... It does benefit the abortion industry, and does endanger more women and babies, if those women can be bullied into silence...

reply from: yoda

It's a matter of degree, not a either/or matter. When the concern is 99% for the mother and only 1% for the baby, I see that as something other than prolife..... something very much like a type of feminism. I really don't mind that some people oppose abortion solely because of what they perceive as the "injury" abortion does to women, I just have trouble thinking of them as sharing the same spiritual arena as those who genuinely empathize with the true victims of abortion, the slaughtered babies. Sure, they qualify as prolife as long as they oppose the legal status of abortion, but that's about it.
It's kind of like if someone said they opposed child abuse because it caused spiritual harm to the abuser. Hey, what ever happened to compassion for the victim, rather than the perpetrator?
You do recognize the distinction between victim and perpetrator, right?

reply from: yoda

Maybe I missed something here.. what's with the use of the plural "women"?

reply from: carolemarie

Extremely well said, Augustine. Sad, but brilliant at the same time.
That is why we speak out....our babies died and it is a very personal matter to those who have had abortions. We want to reach other women so they don't experience the same heartache we did.

reply from: Banned Member

Your babies did not die. You babies were killed and no matter what personal or spiritual forgiveness you have experienced your message to woman will be much less effective, if effective at all, if women do not know that they are not simply about to make a mistake that will cause their babies to die but rather are about to make the decision to kill their babies.
It's time to stop brandishing your immunity to abortion guilt and address the real problem at hand. 4000 babies are being killed every day. Your guilt will be a stronger witness to the grim horror of abortion than your personal redemption.

reply from: KaylieBee

To save the baby, you need to reach the woman.Look, I don't think I know better because I had an abortion, I think that I know better because I have been standing out in front of the clinic for 12 years talking to the women. I have seen all kinds of things done and tried and I have seen what actually works. The best sucess is with the pro-woman outreach. Like the graphic vs the I am a person pictures. The I am a person works better. Being kind works better than being hard.
Just like all of you, I would like to shake these women and say whats the matter with you!!!! ARe you insane, how can you think killing a baby will make your life better?? But that doesn't get the results I want. I want that baby to live and that woman to change her mind about buying death and misery. So I have learned that I need to be kind and gentle and all about her. When we did, the saves went up. And ultimately it is all about her, will she let her baby live or will she not let her baby live. It is all up to her, and we can help her do right or make her mad and help her choose evil.
If that myspace is yours, did you get yourself knocked up while whoring, doing porn, or doing a little 'extra' during a dance?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Lay off Carol. She's one of the SANE pro-life people here.

reply from: faithman

You are playing a big game. You are taking specific statements to specific people and making it into a general statement. I have a problem with one individual, and you make a false blanket statment out of it. This last post is a platant lie. I have confronted many bortheads of both genders on this forum. And you need to namer all these other "pro-life women" you accuse me of attacking. I owe a punk like you nothing. If you don't have the time to read my posts, I will not waist mine reposting for you. No one is bullieing anyone into silence. That is a lie as well. You want to play pissy word twisting games go for it.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Just a question, but how do you survive being killed without dying? Death is the result of being killed. It's like saying "I'll kill you to death!"

reply from: KaylieBee

All I could hear while reading PoorlyInformed's first post was 'BAAAAAAAAAW women can't make their own choices without the influence of bad bad men baaaw women don't like sex baaw evil evil men. sex is baaaaaaaaad. etc etc. '

reply from: faithman

Just a question, but how do you survive being killed without dying? Death is the result of being killed. It's like saying "I'll kill you to death!"
The difference is tone. Die can mean any number of general was to become dead. It is put that way to try and demenish the fact that a child was purposely killed. Abortion is murder. Those involved in it are murderers. And even though they may have found mercy from God, as long as they exist in the temperal, they are murderers.

reply from: Banned Member

If I have to explain the difference between simply dying and being killed as it pertains to this discussion, you would not even understand the anaswer to your question.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

If I have to explain the difference between simply dying and being killed as it pertains to this discussion, you would not even understand the anaswer to your question.
Oh, I thought you were trying to say they were killed but didn't die (and somehow lived). The phrasing was weird.
But death can be natural or unnatural. Abortion leads to death. Death by being killed, as opposed to dying a natural death.

reply from: faithman

If I have to explain the difference between simply dying and being killed as it pertains to this discussion, you would not even understand the anaswer to your question.
Oh, I thought you were trying to say they were killed but didn't die (and somehow lived). The phrasing was weird.
But death can be natural or unnatural. Abortion leads to death. Death by being killed, as opposed to dying a natural death.
TA DA!!!!! Light bulb moment!!!!

reply from: 4given

Yah think?! Good thing you are here to help us understand Augustine's point..

reply from: Banned Member

The wheels on the bus go round and round....

reply from: 4given

I don't think Augustine was being anything. Truth is if I am mutliated by any hand- I don't want to think the pretty portion of any document would read "died".. unless it was followed by "the result of___"

reply from: LiberalChiRo

If I have to explain the difference between simply dying and being killed as it pertains to this discussion, you would not even understand the anaswer to your question.
Oh, I thought you were trying to say they were killed but didn't die (and somehow lived). The phrasing was weird.
But death can be natural or unnatural. Abortion leads to death. Death by being killed, as opposed to dying a natural death.
TA DA!!!!! Light bulb moment!!!!
Dude, SHE'S the one that wrote "They didn't die, they were killed." I show that to ANYONE on the street and they're going to start laughing hysterically because it sounds stupid and makes no sense.

reply from: faithman

I don't think Augustine was being anything. Truth is if I am mutliated by any hand- I don't want to think the pretty portion of any document would read "died".. unless it was followed by "the result of___"
Let's call for a vote. How many people did not understand that when Carole referred to the death of her children, she was talking about her abortions?
Do you really think it was necessary to "clarify" that? Yeah, Augustine is an ass, and you have made a habit of defending asses on this forum. I'm still waiting for your comments on your "faux life" friend, Fboy, and his refusal to support a constitutional amendment to end abortion on demand. You were never as crude or obnoxious as some, but you did join in the Carole bashing in your own way. I want to hear what you think of Fboy now. Do you still "hear his heart's cry," knowing that he values the Constitution too much to risk altering it to end abortion?
What you are refusing to recognise is that you do not need to alter the constitution to end abortion. As a matter of fact what you advocate could very well alter the constitution to where abortion could never be outlawed. What do you favor an action that would make it imposible to outlaw abortiion on demand?

reply from: Faramir

It's a matter of degree, not a either/or matter. When the concern is 99% for the mother and only 1% for the baby, I see that as something other than prolife..... something very much like a type of feminism. I really don't mind that some people oppose abortion solely because of what they perceive as the "injury" abortion does to women, I just have trouble thinking of them as sharing the same spiritual arena as those who genuinely empathize with the true victims of abortion, the slaughtered babies. Sure, they qualify as prolife as long as they oppose the legal status of abortion, but that's about it.
It's kind of like if someone said they opposed child abuse because it caused spiritual harm to the abuser. Hey, what ever happened to compassion for the victim, rather than the perpetrator?
You do recognize the distinction between victim and perpetrator, right?
The problem is that yoda sees just about any concern for the woman as 99% for the woman.
And I don't think he has grasped that the women are often victims themselves, and he unfairly singles them out as the criminal, when many more than just the women are responsible.
He prefers to see women as "perpetrators."

reply from: Banned Member

Given the full context they would be laughing not with you, but at you.
These babies did not merely die, they died of a very specific cause. They were killed by abortion. Someone could have empathy for anyone whose child died of some natural and perhaps even unexpected cause. But should they ask "How did they die?" and your answer is "I killed them" I think that their empathy would be very limited in its scope.
My whole point here is this, that Carol's re-suffering her guilt and acknowledging her full culpability in the deaths of her children would be a far greater witness to the horror of abortion rather than simply being compassionate and understanding. There is a time for comforting and consolation, AFTER the unborn child has been saved.

reply from: faithman

I don't think Augustine was being anything. Truth is if I am mutliated by any hand- I don't want to think the pretty portion of any document would read "died".. unless it was followed by "the result of___"
Let's call for a vote. How many people did not understand that when Carole referred to the death of her children, she was talking about her abortions?
Do you really think it was necessary to "clarify" that? Yeah, Augustine is an ass, and you have made a habit of defending asses on this forum. I'm still waiting for your comments on your "faux life" friend, Fboy, and his refusal to support a constitutional amendment to end abortion on demand. You were never as crude or obnoxious as some, but you did join in the Carole bashing in your own way. I want to hear what you think of Fboy now. Do you still "hear his heart's cry," knowing that he values the Constitution too much to risk altering it to end abortion?
What you are refusing to recognise is that you do not need to alter the constitution to end abortion. As a matter of fact what you advocate could very well alter the constitution to where abortion could never be outlawed. What do you favor an action that would make it imposible to outlaw abortiion on demand?
An amendment prohibiting abortion on demand would make it impossible to prohibit abortion on demand? What a fascinating concept....
An amendment try could throw us into a constitutional convention in which the whole constitution would be wiped away, includding the tools to make abortion on demand illegal. Besides, as you have choosen to ignore because you would rather delay an end for years to come, It doesn't take an amendment to end it. Why do you want to hinder the outlaw of abortion on demand for decades more? You hate womb children that much?

reply from: carolemarie

Given the full context they would be laughing not with you, but at you.
These babies did not merely die, they died of a very specific cause. They were killed by abortion. Someone could have empathy for anyone whose child died of some natural and perhaps even unexpected cause. But should they ask "How did they die?" and your answer is "I killed them" I think that their empathy would be very limited in its scope.
My whole point here is this, that Carol's re-suffering her guilt and acknowledging her full culpability in the deaths of her children would be a far greater witness to the horror of abortion rather than simply being compassionate and understanding. There is a time for comforting and consolation, AFTER the unborn child has been saved.
And how many women have you talked to at an abortion clinic that you base this opinion on?
Amazingly I have actually talked to women at abortion clinics, thus finding out what actually works. Suprise....being kind works better than being a jerk.

reply from: 4given

You are right.. I have also defended you. I have not ever possessed an agenda in regard to CM or any other person here. I certainly was not apart of any/ nor would ever desire to be apart of a "bashing"- I don't know what his views are.. other than his commitment to the pro-life cause through thousands of live womb images- IAAP- many that have made their way here. What are your thoughts on that? Do you feel that a Constitutional ammendment would be enough to end abortion?

reply from: faithman

I don't think Augustine was being anything. Truth is if I am mutliated by any hand- I don't want to think the pretty portion of any document would read "died".. unless it was followed by "the result of___"
Let's call for a vote. How many people did not understand that when Carole referred to the death of her children, she was talking about her abortions?
Do you really think it was necessary to "clarify" that? Yeah, Augustine is an ass, and you have made a habit of defending asses on this forum. I'm still waiting for your comments on your "faux life" friend, Fboy, and his refusal to support a constitutional amendment to end abortion on demand. You were never as crude or obnoxious as some, but you did join in the Carole bashing in your own way. I want to hear what you think of Fboy now. Do you still "hear his heart's cry," knowing that he values the Constitution too much to risk altering it to end abortion?
What you are refusing to recognise is that you do not need to alter the constitution to end abortion. As a matter of fact what you advocate could very well alter the constitution to where abortion could never be outlawed. What do you favor an action that would make it imposible to outlaw abortiion on demand?
An amendment prohibiting abortion on demand would make it impossible to prohibit abortion on demand? What a fascinating concept....
An amendment try could throw us into a constitutional convention in which the whole constitution would be wiped away, includding the tools to make abortion on demand illegal. Besides, as you have choosen to ignore because you would rather delay an end for years to come, It doesn't take an amendment to end it. Why do you want to hinder the outlaw of abortion on demand for decades more? You hate womb children that much?
Abortion is legal now, isn't it? Changing the constitution, or having the SCOTUS reverse Roe are the only ways to change that. We have nothing to lose by trying to amend our constitution. Unless you have a higher priority than ending abortion? What rights are you so afraid of losing that you refuse to support an end to abortion by amendment? Is this about you guns? What is it you put before all those unborn children?
You have once again told a false hood. It is a fact that the language of roe, and the 5th section of the 14th amendment already gives congress the authority to act. We are not under the dictatorship of the court. Nor do we need to waist years trying to get 2 thirds of the congress, and 3 quaters of the states to get an amendment passed, when the court and the constitution already has given the congress the authority to act. Why are you so against the womb children that you want to delay the slaughter for years by posting mis information, and advocating action that would delay things for a long time to come?

reply from: 4given

LOL. Yeah, I can be an ass too. I get tickled at the way you Christians seem to think making clever implications maintains your innocence, since you didn't actually come out and say it...
Huh? Okay.. You are/can be an ass as well. I was trying to be polite... not taking it apart.. nolo.. Please don't refer to me as "you Christians". Unless your comments are not directed to me.. It hurts my ungodly feelings.
edit to include Christians....

reply from: faithman

Well, if I'm wrong, what's the bleeding hold up? The legislation has been introduced 3 times in 7 years.... The same legislation you claim will end abortion on demand in "weeks, not years!"
Because there are baBY KILLERS IN THE CONGRESS THAT ARE HOLDING IT UP, AND BECAUSE DUMBASSES LIKE YOU ARE POSTING MISS INFORMATION, AND THE MEDIA IS NOT REPORTING ON IT, AND FALSE PRO-LIFE LEADERS ARE NOT INFORMING PEOLE ON HOW TO END IT. wHEN WE QUIT LISTENING TO PHONIES LIKE YOU AND kILLER CAROLE, WE WILL GET IT DONE.

reply from: faithman

LOL. Yeah, I can be an ass too. I get tickled at the way you Christians seem to think making clever implications maintains your innocence, since you didn't actually come out and say it...
Huh? Okay.. You are/can be an ass as well. I was trying to be polite... not taking it apart.. nolo.. Please don't refer to me as "you Christians". Unless your comments are not directed to me.. It hurts my ungodly feelings.
edit to include Christians....
CP: "You have made a habit of defending asses..."
4G: "You are right.. I have also defended you."
You are either:
a. admitting that others you have defended are asses...
or
b. Implying that, since you have also defended me, it is true that you have defended asses (implying that I am the ass)
Either way, you have called someone an ass, without getting your little hands dirty....
And you are punking off at the mouth against a real pro-life woman who has not killed a single womb child, and has opened her home to other children as well. You side with a baby killer, and have the audasity to call anthing into question? You pervert everything you touch, but I guess that's what jailhouse wives do.

reply from: faithman

Well, if I'm wrong, what's the bleeding hold up? The legislation has been introduced 3 times in 7 years.... The same legislation you claim will end abortion on demand in "weeks, not years!"
Because there are baBY KILLERS IN THE CONGRESS THAT ARE HOLDING IT UP, AND BECAUSE DUMBASSES LIKE YOU ARE POSTING MISS INFORMATION, AND THE MEDIA IS NOT REPORTING ON IT, AND FALSE PRO-LIFE LEADERS ARE NOT INFORMING PEOLE ON HOW TO END IT. wHEN WE QUIT LISTENING TO PHONIES LIKE YOU AND kILLER CAROLE, WE WILL GET IT DONE.
Gee, posts I have made this week prevented legislation from passing 7 years ago? I am one mega powerful mofo!
If "babykillers" in the Congress are holding it up, how "effective" is it? Actually, the first bill died in committee in a republican, prolife congress. If it can't pass then, when can it? You just don't understand the issue. If there were nothing but Fboy clones in congress (God help us), the legislation would still never pass without defying the constitutional limits set on congress. Congress can not just do whatever they like. This kind of bill goes to the judicial committee for a reason, but I assume it would be pointless to attempt to explain it to you again...
What is pointless is telling you the truth while you post lies. It is bortheads who hold it up because they know it passes constitutional muster. The roe discission already ackowleges the fact congress can act. How can something be against a court discission when the discission says the congress can do the very thing you say it can not? the 5th section of the 14th amendment also gives the congress the authority to act. Once again, somthing you pressious scotus has acknolages as well. Why do you hate babies so much that you would delay the banning of their murder? An amendment is unnessisary, time consuming, and the wrong way to go.

reply from: faithman

Well, if I'm wrong, what's the bleeding hold up? The legislation has been introduced 3 times in 7 years.... The same legislation you claim will end abortion on demand in "weeks, not years!"
Because there are baBY KILLERS IN THE CONGRESS THAT ARE HOLDING IT UP, AND BECAUSE DUMBASSES LIKE YOU ARE POSTING MISS INFORMATION, AND THE MEDIA IS NOT REPORTING ON IT, AND FALSE PRO-LIFE LEADERS ARE NOT INFORMING PEOLE ON HOW TO END IT. wHEN WE QUIT LISTENING TO PHONIES LIKE YOU AND kILLER CAROLE, WE WILL GET IT DONE.
Gee, posts I have made this week prevented legislation from passing 7 years ago? I am one mega powerful mofo!
If "babykillers" in the Congress are holding it up, how "effective" is it? Actually, the first bill died in committee in a republican, prolife congress. If it can't pass then, when can it? You just don't understand the issue. If there were nothing but Fboy clones in congress (God help us), the legislation would still never pass without defying the constitutional limits set on congress. Congress can not just do whatever they like. This kind of bill goes to the judicial committee for a reason, but I assume it would be pointless to attempt to explain it to you again...
What is pointless is telling you the truth while you post lies. It is bortheads who hold it up because they know it passes constitutional muster. The roe discission already ackowleges the fact congress can act. How can something be against a court discission when the discission says the congress can do the very thing you say it can not? the 5th section of the 14th amendment also gives the congress the authority to act. Once again, somthing you pressious scotus has acknolages as well. Why do you hate babies so much that you would delay the banning of their murder? An amendment is unnessisary, time consuming, and the wrong way to go.
Quote me the SCOTUS ruling that says the congress can over ride their interpretation of the constitution....The phrase you refer to from Roe simply states that the state of Texas must convince the court that an unborn child is a person under the language and meaning of the 14th amendment. It is not an invalidation clause, as you suggest. Would that it were, but it is not...
It does not say that congress has to override. It says that id congress atributes personhood to the womb child Roe colapses. It would not be overriding at all. It point blank said that if the congress not the state. That is the language, that is in the ruling, and the 5th section of the 14th amendment gives congress the constitutiional authority to do so. That is an actual law that was actually passed by the legislature. Not a false ruling by a secular humanist high jacked Court, hell bent on destroying the constitution insted of upholding it. The court rules on the law the legislature passes. the court over stepped its authority when it made law in Roe. Roe is what is unconstitutional, not congresses authority to act.

reply from: faithman

You are simply wrong as usual. No where in the constitution does it say the court is dictator. The way to set it right is the life at conception act.http://www.lifeatconceptionact.com/
What part of ..."with such exceptions, and under such regulations as congress shall make." don't you understand? Congress could tell the court that they can not even rule on abortion if we get personhood folks into office. That would be an exception, and a regulation. the court can only rule on law. there was no federal law at the time of Roe. There was no judicial authority for them to act. The way to end this swiftly is by the constitutional passage of teh Life at conception act, byt the power alrerady invested in the congress by the constitution, and the court itself. The congress could futhure make a regulatory exception forbidding the court to even rule on abortion ever again. That is what the document says. It is called checks and ballances. The court is forbidden from making law, their job is to rule on it. There was no law for them to rule on. They should never have heard the case. The could, and should have refused to hear it. They had no jurisdiction.

reply from: faithman

Hello! Texas state law restricting abortion?
That was state law that was not in violation of the constitution or federal law. There was no law under the jurisdiction of the court to rule on. The should have refused to hear the case in the first place. They had no constitutional jurisdiction in the case. The copngress has the authority all ready to make laws concerning persons acording to section 5 of the 14th amendment. The congress also has the authority to make abortion an exception, and regulate the court to never rule on abortion again. The court is not the dictator of the united states. More and more people are realizing that, which is why the secular humanist socialist want to get FOCA passed to keep a pro-life court from over turning Roe. Foca would restrict the court from ruling on abortion, but leave Roe intact. A life at conception act would restrict the court from ruling on abortion except it would desolve roe completely, and constitutionally atribute personhood to the womb child by the authority of section 5 of the 14th amendment.

reply from: faithman

It is the SCs job to make that determination...and the court can not be prevented from ruling on abortion without an amendment altering the jurisdiction of the court. No branch of government may operate in opposition to our constitution. You can say it as many times as you like, but that won't make it true. 7 years and counting, Fboy. Keep pissing into the wind...
You are simply wrong. Article 3 section 2 of the constitution says that congress can set exceptions, and regulate what the court can rule on. the life at conception act could make abortion on demand an exception, and regulate the court to never rule on it again. Section 5 of the 14th amendment gives congress the authority to legislate laws governing personhood. All of this has already been regognized by the court.http://www.lifeatconceptionact.com/

reply from: Faramir

I don't think Augustine was being anything. Truth is if I am mutliated by any hand- I don't want to think the pretty portion of any document would read "died".. unless it was followed by "the result of___"
Let's call for a vote. How many people did not understand that when Carole referred to the death of her children, she was talking about her abortions?
Do you really think it was necessary to "clarify" that? Yeah, Augustine is an ass, and you have made a habit of defending asses on this forum. I'm still waiting for your comments on your "faux life" friend, Fboy, and his refusal to support a constitutional amendment to end abortion on demand. You were never as crude or obnoxious as some, but you did join in the Carole bashing in your own way. I want to hear what you think of Fboy now. Do you still "hear his heart's cry," knowing that he values the Constitution too much to risk altering it to end abortion?
No, that clarifcation was NOT necessary.
It was not a clarification at all, anyway. It was an excuse to be cruel. It was another "bash Carole" post.
We all know that she is postabortive and regrets the deaths of her children.
Yes--they died. She played a part in their deaths. She and others caused their deaths. She knows it and we know it.
It was just Augustine's more "sophisticated" way of calling her "killer carole" and nothing more.

reply from: yoda

Apparently, some folks just can't read that part of the constitution, or else can't understand it, or else refuse to acknowledge it...... sad, isn't it?

reply from: ProInformed

"It's a matter of degree, not a either/or matter. When the concern is 99% for the mother and only 1% for the baby, I see that as something other than prolife..... something very much like a type of feminism. I really don't mind that some people oppose abortion solely because of what they perceive as the "injury" abortion does to women, I just have trouble thinking of them as sharing the same spiritual arena as those who genuinely empathize with the true victims of abortion, the slaughtered babies. Sure, they qualify as prolife as long as they oppose the legal status of abortion, but that's about it.
It's kind of like if someone said they opposed child abuse because it caused spiritual harm to the abuser. Hey, what ever happened to compassion for the victim, rather than the perpetrator?
You do recognize the distinction between victim and perpetrator, right?"
OK, I totally get what you're saying Yoda, and I agree to a point.
The vast majority of women who abort are not 'perpetrators' in the sense that is being implied IMHO. ONLY if the immense pressures put on women to 'choose' abortion (or else), and the immense amount of deception committed by the abortion industry, biased media, and chanting choicists is ignored, can aborting women be seen as 'perpetrators'.
I have noticed that pro-life women who had abortions before becoming pro-life maybe tend to debate in a more abortion industry vs women way? I don't assume that means they are less concerned about the babies. It may just be they realize it will be more effective at reaching the sort of women who still views it as a woman vs baby struggle? To be honest, I haven't followed the personal attacks against Carole threads enough myself to determine whether she really lacks concern for unborn babies. But it's impossible to ignore 'faithman's' hostility. Whether it is believed that faithman's hostility is justified, I doubt seriously it can effectively change the heart/mind of a militant feminazi scheduled for an abortion.

reply from: Faramir

We are not here to change their hearts and minds.
We are here to defeat them.
And if we can kick around a postabortive woman in the process, that's a bonus that we deserve because our love of the babies.

reply from: yoda

Sorry, I've got to disagree with you there. All who pressure a woman to abort, or trick her into it, are equally guilty as she is, that is true. But unless she is totally ignorant of the facts of life (which is quite rare), she knows that an abortion will kill a baby. Therefore she and the butcher whom she authorizes to kill her baby are the perpetrators of the killing. Every act of violence against another has a perpetrator and a victim, and in the case of abortion, the person who gives permission for the abortion is one of the perpetrators of that violence.
I haven't found that to be the case. A good example is Cherie Johnson, who co-hosts Mark Crutcher's "LifeTalk" DVD monthly. She is post abortive, and yet she is as sensitive to the wrong done to babies as any prolifer I've ever seen, and as dedicated to the prolife cause.
My only question on that subject was about your use of a plural pronoun. The hostility you mention is quite real and constant, but I don't think it's fair to say it's directed towards post abortive women in general.

reply from: carolemarie

Sorry, I've got to disagree with you there. All who pressure a woman to abort, or trick her into it, are equally guilty as she is, that is true. But unless she is totally ignorant of the facts of life (which is quite rare), she knows that an abortion will kill a baby. Therefore she and the butcher whom she authorizes to kill her baby are the perpetrators of the killing. Every act of violence against another has a perpetrator and a victim, and in the case of abortion, the person who gives permission for the abortion is one of the perpetrators of that violence.
I haven't found that to be the case. A good example is Cherie Johnson, who co-hosts Mark Crutcher's "LifeTalk" DVD monthly. She is post abortive, and yet she is as sensitive to the wrong done to babies as any prolifer I've ever seen, and as dedicated to the prolife cause.
My only question on that subject was about your use of a plural pronoun. The hostility you mention is quite real and constant, but I don't think it's fair to say it's directed towards post abortive women in general.
I agree, his hostility it is only directed to post abortive women who will not agree with everything he post. If you will agree with everything he says, then you can be allowed to be treated well.
IMO, There is no conflict in caring about the woman as well as the baby. In fact if you don't care about her, you shouldn't go to abortion clinics. You are of no use there.

reply from: nancyu

Heaven forbid we should make anyone feel uncomfortable with the decision to murder a child, right.

reply from: carolemarie

Heaven forbid we should make anyone feel uncomfortable with the decision to murder a child, right.
If it isn't too much trouble, try to contain yourself to respond to what is actually posted, not your bizarre spin on things.

reply from: nancyu

It's too much trouble. I'll post as I see fit.

reply from: yoda

You're preaching to the choir. No one here is indifferent to women. We've gone past that discussion.
What we're discussing is the "balance of concern". If it is weighed too heavily towards either the woman or the baby, then the effectiveness of the battle to stop legal abortion suffers.
But in that balance, we do need to keep in mind the INTENT of an abortion... it is always important to remember that abortions are DESIGNED to kill the baby, not to kill the mother. Therefore all we can do for a woman is to try to protect her from herself...... because she's the one who has to give the final nod of permission inside the clinic. She's the one who does the damage to herself AND to the baby.
The baby, on the other hand, gets no such choice, no such opportunity to say "no". The baby is much too small to speak up and say ANYTHING. The baby is much too small to hold out a tiny hand as if to say "stop". The baby cannot even be made aware that it is about to be killed, or why.
So, in balance, which party of the two is the more vulnerable, has more to lose, is in worse need of protection?

reply from: sander

You're preaching to the choir. No one here is indifferent to women. We've gone past that discussion.
What we're discussing is the "balance of concern". If it is weighed too heavily towards either the woman or the baby, then the effectiveness of the battle to stop legal abortion suffers.
But in that balance, we do need to keep in mind the INTENT of an abortion... it is always important to remember that abortions are DESIGNED to kill the baby, not to kill the mother. Therefore all we can do for a woman is to try to protect her from herself...... because she's the one who has to give the final nod of permission inside the clinic. She's the one who does the damage to herself AND to the baby.
The baby, on the other hand, gets no such choice, no such opportunity to say "no". The baby is much too small to speak up and say ANYTHING. The baby is much too small to hold out a tiny hand as if to say "stop". The baby cannot even be made aware that it is about to be killed, or why.
So, in balance, which party of the two is the more vulnerable, has more to lose, is in worse need of protection?
This should be on billboards next to every PP and every other abortion mill on the planet.
If women were given this to read before they walked their selves and their babies into the killing fields, abortion rates would drop like a rock.

reply from: yoda

Thanks.
I try to keep my posts short so they will be more readable, and get straight to the point.
Now if only those that need to read it will do so.........

reply from: carolemarie

You're preaching to the choir. No one here is indifferent to women. We've gone past that discussion.
What we're discussing is the "balance of concern". If it is weighed too heavily towards either the woman or the baby, then the effectiveness of the battle to stop legal abortion suffers.
But in that balance, we do need to keep in mind the INTENT of an abortion... it is always important to remember that abortions are DESIGNED to kill the baby, not to kill the mother. Therefore all we can do for a woman is to try to protect her from herself...... because she's the one who has to give the final nod of permission inside the clinic. She's the one who does the damage to herself AND to the baby.
The baby, on the other hand, gets no such choice, no such opportunity to say "no". The baby is much too small to speak up and say ANYTHING. The baby is much too small to hold out a tiny hand as if to say "stop". The baby cannot even be made aware that it is about to be killed, or why.
So, in balance, which party of the two is the more vulnerable, has more to lose, is in worse need of protection?
This should be on billboards next to every PP and every other abortion mill on the planet.
If women were given this to read before they walked their selves and their babies into the killing fields, abortion rates would drop like a rock.
I don't think it would make any difference.
In some clinics, you get to write little messages to your baby before you have the procedure. Women write heart wrenching messages to their babies, that they wish it could be different, and then that same mom, goes and pays for the procedure and has it done...
Abortion isn't about the baby. You have an abortion because of your problems.
That is the reason that blathering on about the baby doesn't reach the woman going to have it terminated. You have to reach her based on what is driving her actions.

reply from: KaylieBee

CM are you going to answer my question?
The one on page four?

reply from: 4given

Kaylie, why not quote the question? If you need an answer- how about not asking others to work for it?

reply from: Faramir

It was a disgusting question that doesn't deserve any acknowledgement.

reply from: carolemarie

KaylieBee: Funny that you would bring this up. I just got thru telling another girl that she should use the opportunity to witness to what God has done now. So in answer to your question the first two abortions the fathers were customers. The third it was my boyfriends.
But what is actually more interesting is that even a total mess like I was, was valuable to God, who came and rescued me from the total depravity I was living in. He saw worth where others only saw garbage.
And that girl that I once was, has been transformed. God is kind and loving KaylieBee, and He loves you more than you will ever know. If you want to know more, PM me.

reply from: sander

You're preaching to the choir. No one here is indifferent to women. We've gone past that discussion.
What we're discussing is the "balance of concern". If it is weighed too heavily towards either the woman or the baby, then the effectiveness of the battle to stop legal abortion suffers.
But in that balance, we do need to keep in mind the INTENT of an abortion... it is always important to remember that abortions are DESIGNED to kill the baby, not to kill the mother. Therefore all we can do for a woman is to try to protect her from herself...... because she's the one who has to give the final nod of permission inside the clinic. She's the one who does the damage to herself AND to the baby.
The baby, on the other hand, gets no such choice, no such opportunity to say "no". The baby is much too small to speak up and say ANYTHING. The baby is much too small to hold out a tiny hand as if to say "stop". The baby cannot even be made aware that it is about to be killed, or why.
So, in balance, which party of the two is the more vulnerable, has more to lose, is in worse need of protection?
This should be on billboards next to every PP and every other abortion mill on the planet.
If women were given this to read before they walked their selves and their babies into the killing fields, abortion rates would drop like a rock.
I don't think it would make any difference.
In some clinics, you get to write little messages to your baby before you have the procedure. Women write heart wrenching messages to their babies, that they wish it could be different, and then that same mom, goes and pays for the procedure and has it done...
Abortion isn't about the baby. You have an abortion because of your problems.
That is the reason that blathering on about the baby doesn't reach the woman going to have it terminated. You have to reach her based on what is driving her actions.
Of course you don't agree. I wouldn't expect anything else.
Why do you think it isn't about the "baby", when if it wasn't for the "baby", there would be no "problem"?
The baby has been de-humanized to the extent even prolifers like yourself consider it "blathering" to bring the center focus to the one who is being dis-membered alive.
I feel sorry for you, CM, there's something deeply wrong in your life, no one here is qualified to help, so I hope you seek it elsewhere sometime in your life.

reply from: Faramir

I think I understand her point.
Being prolife is being about the baby, primarily.
But when you're in a desperate situation and want to be UNpregnant and are not thinking clearly, it's about the hardship of the situation. It's not about the baby in that someone is eager to kill a baby--as if they have that kind of twisted desire. I don't believe they do.
But I think you are way out of line and being extremely patronizing to tell someone about their life problems and that they need to "seek help," especially since such well wishes are usually insincere and are meant to be insulting. If they were not meant to be a put down, they would be made in kind way and privately.
CM's "issues" are no greater than yours or mine or anyone else on this board, as far as I can see. And she is head and shoulders above all of us in being able to handle persecution and rude behavior in a classy and Christian manner--not perfectly--but I think she's an excellent example in that department, and we would do well to strive to emulate it.

reply from: sander

Faramir, I understand you're devoted to CM, and that's fine, it's your choice.
I feel deeply about the baby, sue me, hate me, do whatever in the hell you want about it....it's the baby that is first consideration with me...if you don't like it, then just scroll past my posts or put me on ignore, but know this, I am NOT going to post to suit you or CM or anyone else. Neither you nor CM have been in this battle as long as I have, you don't want to understand, or can't understand that the baby is so far back in the line of concern that it is contributing to their demise to this day. It was done deliberatley back in the beginning and it continues on.
At every opportunity, I will put them center front focus. It is what drives me in this battle and it is what dictates my response to every single post I've ever responded to. It has dictated my every move in the prolife movement, every diaper I've ever bought, every letter I've ever written, every phone call I've ever made. All were done to help the baby.....because it is the baby that is DEAD when all is said and done.
CM told someone else to get over it on how she feels....I'm telling her, you and anybody else on here to GET OVER IT when it comes to my posts that deal squarley with the baby.

reply from: KaylieBee

I still want proof that you were in porn.

reply from: carolemarie

You're preaching to the choir. No one here is indifferent to women. We've gone past that discussion.
What we're discussing is the "balance of concern". If it is weighed too heavily towards either the woman or the baby, then the effectiveness of the battle to stop legal abortion suffers.
But in that balance, we do need to keep in mind the INTENT of an abortion... it is always important to remember that abortions are DESIGNED to kill the baby, not to kill the mother. Therefore all we can do for a woman is to try to protect her from herself...... because she's the one who has to give the final nod of permission inside the clinic. She's the one who does the damage to herself AND to the baby.
The baby, on the other hand, gets no such choice, no such opportunity to say "no". The baby is much too small to speak up and say ANYTHING. The baby is much too small to hold out a tiny hand as if to say "stop". The baby cannot even be made aware that it is about to be killed, or why.
So, in balance, which party of the two is the more vulnerable, has more to lose, is in worse need of protection?
This should be on billboards next to every PP and every other abortion mill on the planet.
If women were given this to read before they walked their selves and their babies into the killing fields, abortion rates would drop like a rock.
I don't think it would make any difference.
In some clinics, you get to write little messages to your baby before you have the procedure. Women write heart wrenching messages to their babies, that they wish it could be different, and then that same mom, goes and pays for the procedure and has it done...
Abortion isn't about the baby. You have an abortion because of your problems.
That is the reason that blathering on about the baby doesn't reach the woman going to have it terminated. You have to reach her based on what is driving her actions.
Of course you don't agree. I wouldn't expect anything else.
Why do you think it isn't about the "baby", when if it wasn't for the "baby", there would be no "problem"?
The baby has been de-humanized to the extent even prolifers like yourself consider it "blathering" to bring the center focus to the one who is being dis-membered alive.
I feel sorry for you, CM, there's something deeply wrong in your life, no one here is qualified to help, so I hope you seek it elsewhere sometime in your life.
I think that it is counter productive to go on to a woman seeking an abortion about the baby! She is there because of her problems. That is what you address first, so you can save the baby.
Abortion to the person seeking one, isn't about the baby. It is a way out of her problems.
And the only weapon authorized by God for us to use in a battle for life is Love.
Love defeats the strongest enemy. Love her, save the baby.

reply from: carolemarie

I still want proof that you were in porn.
Too bad. I have nothing to prove and no desire to prove anything. You are free to disbelieve anything you want. I am not linking you to anything that is offensive to God or allowing it to be dragged up.

reply from: faithman

I still want proof that you were in porn.
Too bad. I have nothing to prove and no desire to prove anything. You are free to disbelieve anything you want. I am not linking you to anything that is offensive to God or allowing it to be dragged up.
Here the thing. You dragged it up. You claim all this evil of the past to sinsationalize your self to give your voice more weight, then want to run hide behind "well I don't want to offend God." SSSSSOOOOO you had morales like an alley cat, sold yourself for sex, then killed the children produced by your business, now want to broadcast that history to sinsationalize your "testimony", then want to run and hide behind pretence of morality when you admit to having none, because someone called you on it, and want proof of what you claim. You want to prove and claim to be alot of things on this forum, but you don't want to have to prove your claims. You just want us to take the word of a confessed baby killer. A baby killer that advocates more for future baby killers than the ones they kill. Post like this prove that you are an unaccountable phony, and only a willingly ignorant kool aid drinker would choose not to see it.

reply from: Faramir

I think CM is a good example of a prolife woman and a Christian, but I am not particularly devoted to her.
It's just that I tend to root for underdogs, and she has been mercilessly bullied on this board by several members. My small voice helps combat a very small part of it, and I know if I were in her position, I would appreciate support like that.
That's great if you're for the babies. That's what all of us who are prolife are for.
But how is it "for the babies" to tell CM she has "deep problems" and needs to get help? That is not dealing "squarely with the baby." That is using the babies as an excuse to slam someone else and is disrespectful of both the person you are slamming and the babies you are exploiting.

reply from: yoda

I have no doubt that you're right about the selfish reasons that drive most women towards abortion. I disagree, however, that it is never effective to try to touch a woman's conscience about killing her baby. There are many women who for one reason or another go to an abortion clinic, and yet still have an active, functioning conscience that can be reached.
I know personally of one woman whom I saw turn around in the parking lot because she heard a fellow protester say very loudly "If you go through with this abortion, your baby's grave will be a sewer or a landfill". She stopped at told another protester on her way out "I heard what that woman was saying and I can't go through with it".

reply from: yoda

Personally, I greatly admire your devotion to the babies. And as i said in my previous post, I don't agree that it's never effective to try to appeal to the conscience of the mother about killing her baby. I think it does work, and I think the kind of woman upon whom it does work are our best prospects for a "turn around".
Don't change a thing about your loyalty to the babies.

reply from: yoda

For my part, I'm relieved to hear that.

reply from: sander

Count on it.
If a baby could hear me defend them, do you think they would say, "listen to that woman BLATHER about us" as the pliars began tearing one of their legs off?
Talk about an UNDERDOG! OMG.....how the baby is missed as the one, the only true underdog is beyond comprehension!!!!!!!

reply from: yoda

I'm sure they would, and then they'd criticize us for showing photos of aborted babies, and taking photos at the mill, and not being sweet enough to the mothers about to kill them, and the whole laundry list, I'm sure... </sarcasm>.
That's the part that really blows me away..... most choicers and a lot of lifers go on and on about the woman, as if she was the one being intentionally killed in every abortion....... absolutely astounding.

reply from: sander

I've yet to find the vocabulary to express how "astonished" I really am and why I find it highly offensive to hear remarks like "blather about the babies"....it's beyond offensive and delves into a realm I can not identify with, no matter how hard I try and no matter who carries on about it.
If I saw someone smashing a kitten on the sidewalk, I wouldn't care what the excuse was or who was doing it...I'd be all over that monster and yet, for some reason we're to say, "aw, gee, poor woman, she must be so sad and upset to want to KILL HER OWN CHILD IN WAYS THAT ARE TOO HORRIBLE TO DESCRIBE!"
Nope, I don't get it.

reply from: yoda

Good point. Gregg Cunningham of CBR says (about their use of pics of aborted babies) "There are some feeling that just can't be communicated with mere words". He's right.
Ain't it mystifying?

reply from: sander

Gregg Cunningham is right and heaven help us if we actually dare to get emotional and express FEELINGS! I mean, it has to be on par with discussing chess moves, right? What could possibly elicit emotions when it comes to killing halpless babies in the womb?

reply from: speck

I still want proof that you were in porn.
Too bad. I have nothing to prove and no desire to prove anything. You are free to disbelieve anything you want. I am not linking you to anything that is offensive to God or allowing it to be dragged up.
Here the thing. You dragged it up. You claim all this evil of the past to sinsationalize your self to give your voice more weight, then want to run hide behind "well I don't want to offend God." SSSSSOOOOO you had morales like an alley cat, sold yourself for sex, then killed the children produced by your business, now want to broadcast that history to sinsationalize your "testimony", then want to run and hide behind pretence of morality when you admit to having none, because someone called you on it, and want proof of what you claim. You want to prove and claim to be alot of things on this forum, but you don't want to have to prove your claims. You just want us to take the word of a confessed baby killer. A baby killer that advocates more for future baby killers than the ones they kill. Post like this prove that you are an unaccountable phony, and only a willingly ignorant kool aid drinker would choose not to see it.
Are you saying that you would like to see CM prove she was in the industry, by showing you her porn?
Wow.....an all new realization of what make FM tick.

reply from: faithman

I still want proof that you were in porn.
Too bad. I have nothing to prove and no desire to prove anything. You are free to disbelieve anything you want. I am not linking you to anything that is offensive to God or allowing it to be dragged up.
Here the thing. You dragged it up. You claim all this evil of the past to sinsationalize your self to give your voice more weight, then want to run hide behind "well I don't want to offend God." SSSSSOOOOO you had morales like an alley cat, sold yourself for sex, then killed the children produced by your business, now want to broadcast that history to sinsationalize your "testimony", then want to run and hide behind pretence of morality when you admit to having none, because someone called you on it, and want proof of what you claim. You want to prove and claim to be alot of things on this forum, but you don't want to have to prove your claims. You just want us to take the word of a confessed baby killer. A baby killer that advocates more for future baby killers than the ones they kill. Post like this prove that you are an unaccountable phony, and only a willingly ignorant kool aid drinker would choose not to see it.
Are you saying that you would like to see CM prove she was in the industry, by showing you her porn?
Wow.....an all new realization of what make FM tick.
That is not what I said at all nor was it my request. The point is, don't go making claims and then hide behind pretence when someone calls you on it. I could really care less. Besides, I don't care to lose lunch over imagry. I have a hard enough time keeping food down reading her dumb posts.

reply from: KaylieBee

Fine then, CM, give me the name you worked under. I imagine I could find it myself without a bit of effort.
What do you have to lose? All it is is imagery of someone you no longer are, right? And what harm can that do?

reply from: yoda

Well, it could completely divert the topic of discussion on this forum for weeks to come........ I for one vote for discretion in this matter.....

reply from: KaylieBee

Lol, I doubt her porn would be that exciting. Unless it's a good girl celebrity on a grainy film, no one obsesses over one single porn video.
Certain stars maybe. Sahsa Grey, Belladonna. Those girls, you'll get obsessed with. Maybe Maria Ozawa, but nothing more.
What type of porn did you do, CM? Did you ever do dvda?

reply from: carolemarie

KaylieBee
The subject is closed. I am not going to provide you with any information other than what is on my site.
This board is about abortion.

reply from: 4given

Kaylie, do you not have a Pokemon to evolve? Why are you lingering on a pro-life forum- mostly trolling and expressing an unnatural interest in pornography?

reply from: KaylieBee

How is an interest in pornography unnatural?
I would rather orgasm than not.
And CM, count the number of off topic boards on the front page before you say that.

reply from: nancyu

I'll give you a hint. If CM appears sane, it is because you share the same views of unborn children being slightly less than human, and second to the needs and desires of a woman.
We appear insane to you because we actually believe abortion is the horrible, gruesome, and unnecessary murder of a child.
Those who think murdering babies is no big deal are the ones who appear insane to us, and we to them apparently.
It's all a matter of perspective, you see?

reply from: yoda

Yes, perspective is everything, isn't it?

reply from: Faramir

I'll give you a hint. If CM appears sane, it is because you share the same views of unborn children being slightly less than human, and second to the needs and desires of a woman.
We appear insane to you because we actually believe abortion is the horrible, gruesome, and unnecessary murder of a child.
Those who think murdering babies is no big deal are the ones who appear insane to us, and we to them apparently.
It's all a matter of perspective, you see?
You're not insane--just a mean b**** who uses abortion and babies as an excuse to slap others around. It's nothing more than that, and you and your friends delude yourself to think it is anything more noble than that. You exploit the babies you claim to love. You use them as an excuse to express hatred for others.
That's sick.

reply from: nancyu

It appears to be, from where I sit.

reply from: KaylieBee

What, can you not remember events that happened only a little over thirty days ago? Unless, of course, they are events which you both provoked and distorted.
As for making a topic, I'll make that when I'm less distracted. But you can look forward to it, I suppose.

reply from: yoda

Aw, come on carole, what do you REALLY think?

reply from: carolemarie

Aw, come on carole, what do you REALLY think?
I am not the one who posted that...I don't have fake screen names...

reply from: yoda

They're not fake, they're real enough.

reply from: carolemarie

You know what I mean....I post under this name only.

reply from: KaylieBee

I will call it appeasement.

reply from: Faramir

Oh brother. Does Mr. Paranoid think I am you now?

reply from: carolemarie

I guess. I just only post as me. I couldn't deal with having multiple personalities running amuck.

reply from: Faramir

If you are me than why does he have me on iggy but not the me that is posing as you?
And he booted me out of his private thread but not the me posing as you.
Wow, this is getting complicated.
But maybe you better pack your bags, because you might be next to be booted, for suspicion of being me instead of you.
Unless he can get some amusement out of it, he doesn't tolerate those who disagree with him and don't accept his views as gospel, so you might be next to bannished to "iggyland."

reply from: carolemarie

I don't care if I am on ignore.
I have Fboy, Nancy Sandler and Joe on ignore most of the time, and Yoda occasionally as well. Then when I feel in the mood to listen to them, I take them off.
You should try it sometime, it is refreshing.
Although you think I would have the prochoicers on ignore, but they are not nearly as spiteful and rude as some of the prolifers....go figure!

reply from: Faramir

But they "love babies."
They are spiteful, rude, and mean because of the love in their hearts.

reply from: carolemarie

But they "love babies."
They are spiteful, rude, and mean because of the love in their hearts.
I am sure they do love babies. Babies are sweet and nice. Everyone loves a baby.
It's those pesky people who have different opinions and voice them that are so darn hard to be civil to....

reply from: Faramir

But they "love babies."
They are spiteful, rude, and mean because of the love in their hearts.
I am sure they do love babies. Babies are sweet and nice. Everyone loves a baby.
It's those pesky people who have different opinions and voice them that are so darn hard to be civil to....
But I find it extremely disgusting when they use the babies as an excuse to be nasty.

reply from: carolemarie

You can't make people be nice.
Which is the fallacy of hate crime bills.
You have a right to be a jerk. And if you cross the line and comit a crime, we already have laws on books to deal with you then.
Try to ignore it, because it isn't worth raising your blood pressure over...life is to short to waste it on being mad at someone.....

reply from: nancyu

They're not about "making people be nice." They're about deterring people from inciting violence...
You all are the jerks. Abortion is what incites people to violence, so that should qualify as hate speech then.

reply from: steffanie

how the hell does abortion incite violence??? its idiots like u who think ur the only 1 entitled to voice an opinion who start the violence.

reply from: yoda

Goodness, steffanie, did you get something stuck in your craw today?
Abortion itself IS violence..... and whenever the government gives it's approval to such violence, it becomes more common in other ways as well.

reply from: sander

Speaks like most proaborts, don't you think? They all have something stuck in their craw.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, I think it's something like "suppressed guilt".

reply from: jujujellybean

Go and CELEBRATE????? Someone tell me I read that wrong????? My vision must be faltering. He does know he is talking to Carolemarie, right?

reply from: jujujellybean

doesn't he read her writing? she regrets it. what more can she say? anything?


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