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Abortion Web Cam

by: JaysonsMom

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/22/eveningnews/main519544.shtml

reply from: coco

I am not so sure public humiliation is the cure, if you want to protest then protest but internet snapshots is not the way to get your point across.

reply from: carolemarie

I think it is mean and hateful to do that. How would you like it if your most shameful sins were posted on the internet? Jesus never would do that to someone.
Carole

reply from: Shiprahagain

If that camera saves a baby's life go right ahead.

reply from: carolemarie

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues. It is not Christian. We are not the judge of people and to try to shame and humiliate them is not right. We are to overcome evil with good.
Carole
( who really, really hates this idea! )

reply from: faithman

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues. It is not Christian. We are not the judge of people and to try to shame and humiliate them is not right. We are to overcome evil with good.
Carole
( who really, really hates this idea! )
It seems to me you are the one with issues against men. All I have heard you do is spew hateful vendictive judgements against them. This is the whole problem with the abortion issue. With feminazi's on both sides of the subject, the womb child get's lost in all the touchy feel good boohoo moments. Do I have issues with murderers? You bet. They don't need coddeling, they need punishment. Killer skanks gave up their humanity when they destroyed the humanity of the womb child. At the last moment at the clinics, we holler for the life of the child, if that hurts killer moms feelings, too bad. It is obvious that some have not truely repented of murdering their child. You know the difference when you hear the truely repentant say they murdered a child and deserve to be punished. The unrepentant always put the focus on themselves, and try to justify chopping a womb child up because they had a bad day, then put all the attention on how they need touchy feel good understanding, and an endless supply of shoulders to slubber on. Thats like pouring sugar syrup over a dead child corpse, to make it easier to let the killer go. This is not just a "woman's issue". It took the seed of a father. And yet men are not allowed to protect their child, and get called all kinds of names by pro-abortion, as well as pro-life feminist, when they try. Sounds to me like some people need to repent of unforgiveness towards men.

reply from: yoda

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues.
And your evidence that the use of photography will not save a baby would be.........?????
Most of the tactics we use in live protest are those that we choose simply because they appeal to our sense of what will get the message across best, and we don't often get feedback from those going in to kill their babies. So we have to be the judge of what works best. What do you use?
Personally I use a camera because where I protest we are, by law, kept at least 150 feet away from the front door of the abortuary, and have almost no chance to speak to those going in. That means we must use very large signs, or something that can be recognized from a distance. My camera sits on a tripod, which is easily recognizable. It can't be called "vindictive or spiteful", because it's purpose it to stop a baby killing. It's there to make her aware that someone she knows may be made aware of her presence at the front door of this place, and hopefully to put the question in her mind as to why she may be ashamed for others to know that.
We represent the "last hope" of the babies about to be killed, so we have to try to come up with creative way to get through the wall of denial many of them have built up. These same women would not blink an eye if they encountered this same camera in front of their beauty shop, and yet many of them are obviously ashamed that they are being photographed here. My hope is to turn that shame into second thoughts about what they are about to do.
So for you to say "it doesn't save babies", without anything more than your opinion, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm out there trying to save babies in the best way I know how, and I think this is one of them.

reply from: yoda

What Neal says about boys growing up on a farm is true, from what I've heard from the boys themselves. We didn't have a farm, but I knew a boy in my neighborhood who did.
Of course, I can understand how a "hollier-than-thou" baby killer like you would be so morally indignant over such a revelation.... it probably shocked you so much you had to get out your Playboy magazine, right?

reply from: faithman

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues.
And your evidence that the use of photography will not save a baby would be.........?????
Most of the tactics we use in live protest are those that we choose simply because they appeal to our sense of what will get the message across best, and we don't often get feedback from those going in to kill their babies. So we have to be the judge of what works best. What do you use?
Personally I use a camera because where I protest we are, by law, kept at least 150 feet away from the front door of the abortuary, and have almost no chance to speak to those going in. That means we must use very large signs, or something that can be recognized from a distance. My camera sits on a tripod, which is easily recognizable. It can't be called "vindictive or spiteful", because it's purpose it to stop a baby killing. It's there to make her aware that someone she knows may be made aware of her presence at the front door of this place, and hopefully to put the question in her mind as to why she may be ashamed for others to know that.
We represent the "last hope" of the babies about to be killed, so we have to try to come up with creative way to get through the wall of denial many of them have built up. These same women would not blink an eye if they encountered this same camera in front of their beauty shop, and yet many of them are obviously ashamed that they are being photographed here. My hope is to turn that shame into second thoughts about what they are about to do.
So for you to say "it doesn't save babies", without anything more than your opinion, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm out there trying to save babies in the best way I know how, and I think this is one of them.
That is because this one is more about giving serial killers a hug, than getting justice, and legal protection for their victums. But what do we know? We are just mean ole vendictive men. How dare we demand protection for the child, and deprive women of their post abortive boo hoo moment? Maybe you could use your camera to take pictures of all the serial killer huggs at their next meeting. Mite give you a little side line. Use the money for real pro-life work.

reply from: pookiy1980

Ugh here is some more discusting info on this guy,
"The Horsley who served 2 1/2 years in federal prison for dealing hashish oil. The Horsley who put up photographs on his Web site of naked men engaging in homosexual acts and a nude woman engaging in bestiality amid shots of grotesquely maimed fetuses........
It was Horsley who Clayton Waagner, a self-described anti-abortion "terrorist" on the Ten Most Wanted List, chose to drop in on shortly before being arrested last November. It was Horsley who propelled his notorious website - featuring home addresses and other detailed information about hundreds of abortion providers - into the national limelight after a physician was murdered by a sniper in 1998.....
Neal Horsley, the Bob Dylan enthusiast who once begged a girlfriend to get an abortion, may be the most important rising figure on the hard Christian right...."
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=259
It does go on to talk about how he asked for forgivness and God forgave him......
That kind of sends the message no matter how bad you mess up you can always "ask for fogivness"...maybe that is what some of these woman having abortions are doing....abortion is wrong per the Bible and so is bestiality and this guy was "forgiven" so why not them?

reply from: pookiy1980

I just did not understand what the issue was with this web page. Small victories also shows pictures of the mothers at the clinics....

reply from: ThomasRNV

...."
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=259
It does go on to talk about how he asked for forgivness and God forgave him......
That kind of sends the message no matter how bad you mess up you can always "ask for fogivness"...maybe that is what some of these woman having abortions are doing....abortion is wrong per the Bible and so is bestiality and this guy was "forgiven" so why not them?
He admitted he was wrong & that he sinned thus, he was forgiven. The same applies to abortion. If the women who've had abs can admit to murder & deserving of punishment in their hearts & swear to Never have another than, they should have forgiveness. I'm not sure if that's in any particular religion it's just something I've come to believe in that I've heard somewhere.
As for those other people calling us the Pro Life death squad, don't make me laugh, Pro aborts support the Death of approx 1.2 - 1.5 million baby's each year in the US alone.
Also I can't speak for others but, as for me. I do go to protests & hold my signs, & as soon as I get my camera with a nice big tripod I'll have that set up as well. I don't even have to take pics just, have the illusion that I am. I am also in a Post Abortive healing group, trying to help women & men like myself heal from a tragic loss. The first step IMHO is admitting you killed your own child. Or if you're like myself try to find forgiveness for the person who took your right as parent away from you.

reply from: faithman

He admitted he was wrong & that he sinned thus, he was forgiven. The same applies to abortion. If the women who've had abs can admit to murder & deserving of punishment in their hearts & swear to Never have another than, they should have forgiveness. I'm not sure if that's in any particular religion it's just something I've come to believe in that I've heard somewhere.
As for those other people calling us the Pro Life death squad, don't make me laugh, Pro aborts support the Death of approx 1.2 - 1.5 million baby's each year in the US alone.
Also I can't speak for others but, as for me. I do go to protests & hold my signs, & as soon as I get my camera with a nice big tripod I'll have that set up as well. I don't even have to take pics just, have the illusion that I am. I am also in a Post Abortive healing group, trying to help women & men like myself heal from a tragic loss. The first step IMHO is admitting you killed your own child. Or if you're like myself try to find forgiveness for the person who took your right as parent away from you.
FINALLY!!!! Someone who understands. I am not against forgiveness. .... As long as the guilty are not made heroes, or justify killing a child simply because they had a bad time. We can no longer call abortion murder, if we do not demand those who did it at least admit to killing a child, and deserve to be punished, even if the government says it is legal. If abortion is murder, then those involved are murderers. Even if they find forgiveness, they are still forgiven murderers, not heroes. We can deal with the mercy thing only after at least that much justice is acknowleged. Other wise the womb child will remain in peril.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues. It is not Christian. We are not the judge of people and to try to shame and humiliate them is not right. We are to overcome evil with good.
Carole
( who really, really hates this idea! )
Apparently it does act as a deterent. The beauty of filming is that it isn't judging -- it's merely neutral recording and if ppl feel bad that's their own conscience acting up. There's good and bad hurt and the hurt you feel when you contemplate while taking a life if instructive hurt. It probably hurt the money lenders feelings when Jesus whipped them out of the temple, but sometimes you use tough love to wake ppl up. Being a Christian isn't always about being soft and extreme sin calls for extreme measures. As for Neal, even if he were Hitler himself would that justify killing babies? If Neal were for saving the environment, would that make environmentalism wrong? Besides, prolifers are less violent than gay activists , animal rights activists, anti-apartheid activists, communists, and union activists. http://abortionviolence.com/0.HTM Against those movements too? We're also less violent than prochoicers who the wold over rape, beat, and kill prolifers.

reply from: faithman

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues. It is not Christian. We are not the judge of people and to try to shame and humiliate them is not right. We are to overcome evil with good.
Carole
( who really, really hates this idea! )
Apparently it does act as a deterent. The beauty of filming is that it isn't judging -- it's merely neutral recording and if ppl feel bad that's their own conscience acting up. There's good and bad hurt and the hurt you feel when you contemplate while taking a life if instructive hurt. It probably hurt the money lenders feelings when Jesus whipped them out of the temple, but sometimes you use tough love to wake ppl up. Being a Christian isn't always about being soft and extreme sin calls for extreme measures. As for Neal, even if he were Hitler himself would that justify killing babies? If Neal were for saving the environment, would that make environmentalism wrong? Besides, prolifers are less violent than gay activists , animal rights activists, anti-apartheid activists, communists, and union activists. http://abortionviolence.com/0.HTM Against those movements too? We're also less violent than prochoicers who the wold over rape, beat, and kill prolifers.
I have had Planned Parenthood use their public security cameras to show me to the authorities. Soo I don't feel sorry for the skanks caught on film at all. I think that their pictures belong on the post office wall with the rest of the serial killers.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Now, now, Faithman. There shouldn't be pictures of serial killers in the post office. We might hurt their feelings.

reply from: faithman

But Captain Crunch will never be safe until we do. [snicker snicker]

reply from: yoda

Goodness, pookiy, you left that to the very end of your little rant and then said it like you don't think he ought to be "forgiven"...... somehow I think you're being so "unforgiving" on this guy because he hates abortion so much, isn't that it?

reply from: yoda

So... that's "immoral" in your pristine eyes?
Umm....... ask for 8 x 10 glossy prints?

reply from: yoda

ROTFLMAO!! You hit the nail right on the head there, Shiprah!!
Well done!!

reply from: 4given

Fabulous! God wants to use even you! Those sinners have the freedom of redemption and maybe the camera is a motivator that will prohibit great loss (ie. the lack of any choice for a future generation)! What freedom does the blood and flesh have w/ in them? . My indignation prohibits a calm response.. It perhaps may serve its purpose well.. and cause anyone w/ a conscience or shame to turn away.. Thus the practice! God have mercy! And I assume you are a fan..
"I caused myself to be worshipped in your stead. No evil was there but I
practised it; no cruelty wherewith I did not stain my soul. And at last you] smote me, O God!" HG WELLS
And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the LORD that smiteth.. Ezekiel 7:9

reply from: Teresa18

What he did with the animal completely sickened me, and as a Christian, that is viewed as a horrible sin.
This is not a method that I would personally use. I don't think it's illegal to take pictures of someone. I don't know if it is illegal to place them on the internet without their consent or not. I do think it could be a good tool for helping the women to think twice. If one isn't ashamed of something, they won't be upset by other people finding out about it. If they realize family or friends may see that image and people will see them going in to have their baby killed, maybe they will reconsider. I do hope their names or addresses or not posted if the protesters somehow find them out because someone could potentially hurt them.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Thanks, Yoda. Great, why don't you take pictures of ppl feeding the homeless too? Our qualm isn't the sin of abortion, but the brutality of it.

reply from: Teresa18

Go ahead and post pictures of women going to CPCs. They may not wish to be pregnant, but people are likely going to know anyway as they get into the second and third trimesters. Also, they aren't having their children killed. They are asking for help to save their child. There is no harm in that.

reply from: carolemarie

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues. It is not Christian. We are not the judge of people and to try to shame and humiliate them is not right. We are to overcome evil with good.
Carole
( who really, really hates this idea! )
It seems to me you are the one with issues against men. All I have heard you do is spew hateful vendictive judgements against them. This is the whole problem with the abortion issue. With feminazi's on both sides of the subject, the womb child get's lost in all the touchy feel good boohoo moments. Do I have issues with murderers? You bet. They don't need coddeling, they need punishment. Killer skanks gave up their humanity when they destroyed the humanity of the womb child. At the last moment at the clinics, we holler for the life of the child, if that hurts killer moms feelings, too bad. It is obvious that some have not truely repented of murdering their child. You know the difference when you hear the truely repentant say they murdered a child and deserve to be punished. The unrepentant always put the focus on themselves, and try to justify chopping a womb child up because they had a bad day, then put all the attention on how they need touchy feel good understanding, and an endless supply of shoulders to slubber on. Thats like pouring sugar syrup over a dead child corpse, to make it easier to let the killer go. This is not just a "woman's issue". It took the seed of a father. And yet men are not allowed to protect their child, and get called all kinds of names by pro-abortion, as well as pro-life feminist, when they try. Sounds to me like some people need to repent of unforgiveness towards men.
There is a big difference in trying to reach someone at an abortion clinic and posting their picture to try and shame and humiliate them because they had an abortion. One is trying to help and the second is trying to punish.
That picture on that site is not going to help her come to know Jesus! It certainly wouldn't make her want to come talk to the person posting it about her need for Christ.
I take back my remarks about men. I do repent for being so ticked off at the idea that I lost it. Men are not the enemy.
I don't think this is just a womans issue. I think it is a human being issue. But women are the ones who have the abortions, thereforth women are the ones we need to reach out to.
Carole

reply from: carolemarie

I have no issues with having a camera. You should have a video camera at the clinic. I always have one with me proving that I didn't criminal trespass or hit someone. The clinic staff and customers will say anything! The camera isn't there to intimidate a woman! I have a problem with posting the pictures on the website.
I have a whole list of sidewalk counseling notes on myspace of things that work for us over the years. We have seen lots of babies saved and women get saved.
www.myspace.com/silentnomorewichita

reply from: carolemarie

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues.
And your evidence that the use of photography will not save a baby would be.........?????
Most of the tactics we use in live protest are those that we choose simply because they appeal to our sense of what will get the message across best, and we don't often get feedback from those going in to kill their babies. So we have to be the judge of what works best. What do you use?
Personally I use a camera because where I protest we are, by law, kept at least 150 feet away from the front door of the abortuary, and have almost no chance to speak to those going in. That means we must use very large signs, or something that can be recognized from a distance. My camera sits on a tripod, which is easily recognizable. It can't be called "vindictive or spiteful", because it's purpose it to stop a baby killing. It's there to make her aware that someone she knows may be made aware of her presence at the front door of this place, and hopefully to put the question in her mind as to why she may be ashamed for others to know that.
We represent the "last hope" of the babies about to be killed, so we have to try to come up with creative way to get through the wall of denial many of them have built up. These same women would not blink an eye if they encountered this same camera in front of their beauty shop, and yet many of them are obviously ashamed that they are being photographed here. My hope is to turn that shame into second thoughts about what they are about to do.
So for you to say "it doesn't save babies", without anything more than your opinion, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm out there trying to save babies in the best way I know how, and I think this is one of them.
That is because this one is more about giving serial killers a hug, than getting justice, and legal protection for their victums. But what do we know? We are just mean ole vendictive men. How dare we demand protection for the child, and deprive women of their post abortive boo hoo moment? Maybe you could use your camera to take pictures of all the serial killer huggs at their next meeting. Mite give you a little side line. Use the money for real pro-life work.
Now you are being silly! I have been going to the clinics for the last 12 years and I know that what I do works because I have seen the results. My objection to the posting the pics on the website is because the only purpose is to shame someone.
Jesus loves these women and wants them to come to Him, not to be driven away. And I apologize for the vindictive men statement. That was not very nice of me and I take it back. I was getting rather spiteful myself.

reply from: carolemarie

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues. It is not Christian. We are not the judge of people and to try to shame and humiliate them is not right. We are to overcome evil with good.
Carole
( who really, really hates this idea! )
Apparently it does act as a deterent. The beauty of filming is that it isn't judging -- it's merely neutral recording and if ppl feel bad that's their own conscience acting up. There's good and bad hurt and the hurt you feel when you contemplate while taking a life if instructive hurt. It probably hurt the money lenders feelings when Jesus whipped them out of the temple, but sometimes you use tough love to wake ppl up. Being a Christian isn't always about being soft and extreme sin calls for extreme measures. As for Neal, even if he were Hitler himself would that justify killing babies? If Neal were for saving the environment, would that make environmentalism wrong? Besides, prolifers are less violent than gay activists , animal rights activists, anti-apartheid activists, communists, and union activists. http://abortionviolence.com/0.HTM Against those movements too? We're also less violent than prochoicers who the wold over rape, beat, and kill prolifers.
And no matter what you do, your picture remains there. No matter if you repent. Forever and ever, that will be recorded on the site. That is wrong. Unless your goal is to keep her from God and forgiveness, then it is a wonderful idea.
Once again, for the record, I am pro-life, I go to clinics, do sidewalk counseling for over a decade now. I do post-abortion counseling and I care very much about the children who die and their mothers. Or else I wouldn't bother.

reply from: carolemarie

He admitted he was wrong & that he sinned thus, he was forgiven. The same applies to abortion. If the women who've had abs can admit to murder & deserving of punishment in their hearts & swear to Never have another than, they should have forgiveness. I'm not sure if that's in any particular religion it's just something I've come to believe in that I've heard somewhere.
As for those other people calling us the Pro Life death squad, don't make me laugh, Pro aborts support the Death of approx 1.2 - 1.5 million baby's each year in the US alone.
Also I can't speak for others but, as for me. I do go to protests & hold my signs, & as soon as I get my camera with a nice big tripod I'll have that set up as well. I don't even have to take pics just, have the illusion that I am. I am also in a Post Abortive healing group, trying to help women & men like myself heal from a tragic loss. The first step IMHO is admitting you killed your own child. Or if you're like myself try to find forgiveness for the person who took your right as parent away from you.
I am so sorry that this happen to you! I will keep you in my prayers.

reply from: faithman

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues.
And your evidence that the use of photography will not save a baby would be.........?????
Most of the tactics we use in live protest are those that we choose simply because they appeal to our sense of what will get the message across best, and we don't often get feedback from those going in to kill their babies. So we have to be the judge of what works best. What do you use?
Personally I use a camera because where I protest we are, by law, kept at least 150 feet away from the front door of the abortuary, and have almost no chance to speak to those going in. That means we must use very large signs, or something that can be recognized from a distance. My camera sits on a tripod, which is easily recognizable. It can't be called "vindictive or spiteful", because it's purpose it to stop a baby killing. It's there to make her aware that someone she knows may be made aware of her presence at the front door of this place, and hopefully to put the question in her mind as to why she may be ashamed for others to know that.
We represent the "last hope" of the babies about to be killed, so we have to try to come up with creative way to get through the wall of denial many of them have built up. These same women would not blink an eye if they encountered this same camera in front of their beauty shop, and yet many of them are obviously ashamed that they are being photographed here. My hope is to turn that shame into second thoughts about what they are about to do.
So for you to say "it doesn't save babies", without anything more than your opinion, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm out there trying to save babies in the best way I know how, and I think this is one of them.
That is because this one is more about giving serial killers a hug, than getting justice, and legal protection for their victums. But what do we know? We are just mean ole vendictive men. How dare we demand protection for the child, and deprive women of their post abortive boo hoo moment? Maybe you could use your camera to take pictures of all the serial killer huggs at their next meeting. Mite give you a little side line. Use the money for real pro-life work.
Now you are being silly! I have been going to the clinics for the last 12 years and I know that what I do works because I have seen the results. My objection to the posting the pics on the website is because the only purpose is to shame someone.
Jesus loves these women and wants them to come to Him, not to be driven away. And I apologize for the vindictive men statement. That was not very nice of me and I take it back. I was getting rather spiteful myself.
I am glad and thankful that you spend time at the clinics. I am not against post abortive ministry, as long as we do not make heroes out of murderers. It does not take courage to come forward, and we should not let confessed killers be honored as they are in some venues. This is a total slap in the face of the butchered womb child's memory. This is not a woman's issue, this is a womb child issue. It is all about the babies until they are no longer legally killed. If post abortive women want to help stop the killing, I am all for it. But we can take care of their problems after the children stop dying. We can ill afford to take hard to come by resources off of the front line to deal with problems which are self imposed. Some of the most effective activist at the clinics are the post abortive. We had a lady who was the best at talking women out of killing their kids. But she never made her self out to be this big heroe for bravely comming forward, but insted would say," it is the least I can do in memory of the children I killed. If I can save one woman the misery, and memory of murderering your own child, then maybe I can live with myself."I personally know Molly White, and think she does a great job in this area. But I have never seen her down play, or try to justify, murdering her children. ?Her and the ladies in her group are totally about the child. They have also helped me do the "I AM A PERSON" cards. They also use the windows to the womb board they got from us. I am willing to work with anyone as long as the focus is the child. We can take care of all these side issues when they are not legally slaughtered.

reply from: MoonLady

Whether you are photographing people at an abortion clinic or a CPC, I believe it is ILLEGAL to post their photos on the internet without written permission from the person(s) in the photos. I will check into this and get back to you.
IMHO, it seems like a nasty, vindictive thing to do.

reply from: yoda

Knock yourself out, baby killer! Who cares? They don't kill babies there, didn't anyone tell you?

reply from: yoda

Think about it. Wouldn't someone have been jailed by now if it was?
That's the thing I'm hoping will happen, at least on occasion. One baby saved makes it all worth it.
To my knowledge, no one does. Also to my knowledge, no one has ever been killed, hurt, or even harassed due to their picture being posted on the abortioncams website. If they had, you can be sure news of it would be plastered all over the headlines of all the major newspapers across the country.

reply from: yoda

Promises, promises, promises...... you're all talk and no action!

reply from: yoda

You've got it all wrong. Posting on the internet is just the final step in the process. The most important step is letting the people going into the abortuary see that they are being photographed.
That's the "prevention" part of it, and that's what it's all about...... trying to prevent the killing of a baby by stimulating someone to think about why they are ashamed to be photographed.

reply from: yoda

There's nothing silly about trying to save babies. We don't all get close enough to the "customers" to get to talk to them, which is the case where I go to protest. So we are left to make that judgment ourselves.
And a little shame is a good thing if it saves a baby. I've seen shame on the faces of the people going into the abortuaries, and if that shame causes them to reconsider killing their baby, then the camera has done a good thing.
The "shame" is there BEFORE the pics get posted on the website.... it's there at the FRONT DOOR.

reply from: yoda

Excellent idea. It's like putting a "beware of the dog" sign on your lawn, even when you don't have a dog. It will have a psychological impact. Sure, a few people will be aggressive enough to figure out it's a bluff, but most will not.
The only down side I can think of is that if the clinic personnel finds out that you don't do any actual photography, they might inform their customers of that fact when they call for appointments. Unless that happens, it should work well.

reply from: yoda

That's the silliest thing you've said today. With all the rabid proaborts foaming at the mouth to hurt prolifers, don't you think ONE of us would have been arrested ALREADY???? Oh no... they were just waiting for some anonymous internet forum poster to research it and make a complaint, right?
Yeah, well...... to me, killing an unborn baby seems like a nasty thing to do..... but not to you!

reply from: yoda

Got any pictures to show us yet..... LOOSER?????

reply from: yoda

That's a special spelling for a special loser........ LOOSER!!

reply from: MC3

MoonLady:
It is certainly not illegal to post photos taken in public on the internet. The law is that there is no expectation of privacy in a public setting.
Also, how do you reconcile your view that slaughtering helpless children is just a "choice" with your opinion that this photo-posting idea is "a nasty, vindictive thing to do." After all, isn't picture taking and posting also a choice?

reply from: MoonLady

From what I've found in my research, you must have a person sign a WRITTEN RELEASE to have their photo posted on the internet, in print or on TV if their face is recognizable and they are not part of a generic and unrecognizable crowd.
Of course, YOU are the one running the risk of having an angry person break your camera equipment or calling the police. So do what you want.

reply from: abc123

From what I've found in my research, you must have a person sign a WRITTEN RELEASE to have their photo posted on the internet, in print or on TV if their face is recognizable and they are not part of a generic and unrecognizable crowd.
So Moonlady you are saying that the paparrazi's are getting a written release from Lindsey Lohan laid out drunk in a car or Paris Hilton crying about having to go back to jail before they make these pictures public? I think that their faces are fairly recognizable too.

reply from: MoonLady

No. Public figures (politicians and "celebrities" are exempt. Private citizens are not. If women realize they are being photographed, they should take your film from you. I believe lawsuits will follow if any of these women find their photos on the Internet, much like those of people who discover that their intimate photos have been posted by others.
But, what the heck - the PL movement has lots of money to waste on avoidable lawsuits, right? Instead of funding CPCs and maternity homes, they can pay lawyers. How sick.

reply from: yoda

Of all the people who mouth off without having a clue what they're talking bout on this forum, you are the champion.
You and the rest of the foaming at the mouth proaborts have had years to file any kind of lawsuits you want to, as abortioncams has been around for at least 10 years.... and yet not a single one so far! What does that tell you?
Come on down to Knoxville, to the abortuary where I take photographs and show your face in front of my camera, and see how fast you become an "internet star".

reply from: Shiprahagain

Wow. More uncited "research."

reply from: Shiprahagain

Maybe they're no lawsuits b/c there's no law. Unless you want to find it and cite it -- we'll be waiting. Also, show us the clause where celebs are exempt and the clause that defines what a celebrity is. And maybe you skipped the Harvard Law prof in the article who said the site wasn't illegal. Oh yeah, I forgot you know more than Harvard profs.

reply from: Shiprahagain

That's the same thing slaveowners used to say.

reply from: MC3

MoonLady routinely comes on this forum and opines about the law, medicine, philosophy, morality, ethics, and Christianity. Unfortunately, all she has proven so far is that she knows virtually nothing about any of them.

reply from: yoda

If I were a drinking man, I'd drink to that!

reply from: carolemarie

Maybe they're no lawsuits b/c there's no law. Unless you want to find it and cite it -- we'll be waiting. Also, show us the clause where celebs are exempt and the clause that defines what a celebrity is. And maybe you skipped the Harvard Law prof in the article who said the site wasn't illegal. Oh yeah, I forgot you know more than Harvard profs.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, slaveowners used to say that, too...... they talked about the "happy slaves". You'd really love to be a slaveowner, wouldn't you, spinny?

reply from: Teresa18

Sorry, Spinny. Parenting is not slavery. Parents have a duty and responsibility to their children. Parents must provide food, clothing, shelter, and education for their born children. Even if they wish to give them up for adoption, they have to care for them until an adoption agency can take them. The woman helped concieve the child in 98% of cases. The child never asked to be concieved, and he/she is not guilty of knowingly imposing upon the woman. He/she is "trapped" in the womb at the complete mercy of the mother for 9 months in order to grow and develop properly. The bottom line is, there are two people in pregnancy, the mother and the child. Both have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If we set one above and at the mercy of the other, then we are creating a two-tiered level of human offspring. In other words, we are creating slavery.
By the way, you are also a "mindless wad of crotch-goo". You are just a larger and more developed "mindless wad of crotch-goo". Speaking of the devil's spawn, there is such an anger and hatred in your posts. I wonder what little unborn children did to you to make you disrespect them and want them dead.

reply from: faithman

Sorry, Spinny. Parenting is not slavery. Parents have a duty and responsibility to their children. Parents must provide food, clothing, shelter, and education for their born children. Even if they wish to give them up for adoption, they have to care for them until an adoption agency can take them. The woman helped concieve the child in 98% of cases. The child never asked to be concieved, and he/she is not guilty of knowingly imposing upon the woman. He/she is "trapped" in the womb at the complete mercy of the mother for 9 months in order to grow and develop properly. The bottom line is, there are two people in pregnancy, the mother and the child. Both have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If we set one above and at the mercy of the other, then we are creating a two-tiered level of human offspring. In other words, we are creating slavery.
By the way, you are also a "mindless wad of crotch-goo". You are just a larger and more developed "mindless wad of crotch-goo". Speaking of the devil's spawn, there is such an anger and hatred in your posts. I wonder what little unborn children did to you to make you disrespect them and want them dead.
It is also a form of self hatred, for we all were fetuses at one time. Wouldnt it be a hoot for a borthead to find out that their mother was talked out of killing them with abortion by a side walk counselor?

reply from: pookiy1980

Goodness, pookiy, you left that to the very end of your little rant and then said it like you don't think he ought to be "forgiven"...... somehow I think you're being so "unforgiving" on this guy because he hates abortion so much, isn't that it?
My rant? Yeah I will rank and rave about how discusting it is to have sex with animals and all the other nasty things he did.
And no your thoughts are wrong.

reply from: yoda

Except I'm not so sure about the "more developed" part.

reply from: yoda

So, if a woman has an abortion, and then is forgiven, do you rant and rave about how disgusting it was for her to have the abortion, or do you focus on the fact that she repented and was forgiven?
Why is he not entitled to be forgiven for that of which he is ashamed and has asked forgiveness?
Why do you continue to hate him?

reply from: pookiy1980

So, if a woman has an abortion, and then is forgiven, do you rant and rave about how disgusting it was for her to have the abortion, or do you focus on the fact that she repented and was forgiven?
Why is he not entitled to be forgiven for that of which he is ashamed and has asked forgiveness?
Why do you continue to hate him?
I do not hate him becasue I do not know him, I hate the things he has done. Likewise I hate when a woman aborts, don't hate the person just the actions.
Sure I would rant and rave about her having one...
forgiven by who??

reply from: yoda

Has it ever occurred to you that AFTER he straightened up, the man has done 1000 times more than you've ever thought about to save babies? But you don't really care about such things as that, do you? All you care about is his past, right?
Well, let's say she asked forgiveness from whatever deity she happens to worship, and from the father of the child, and from society. Is that enough?
If such a woman were posting on this forum, would you jump all over her and say what an awful, nasty thing she has done? Would you say mean things to her, and then only after all that, say "But I see you also have asked for forgiveness"..........?
If you would, then why not say those things now, to MoonLady? She's admitted having an abortion, so tell her what an awful thing she's done!

reply from: carolemarie

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues.
And your evidence that the use of photography will not save a baby would be.........?????
Most of the tactics we use in live protest are those that we choose simply because they appeal to our sense of what will get the message across best, and we don't often get feedback from those going in to kill their babies. So we have to be the judge of what works best. What do you use?
Personally I use a camera because where I protest we are, by law, kept at least 150 feet away from the front door of the abortuary, and have almost no chance to speak to those going in. That means we must use very large signs, or something that can be recognized from a distance. My camera sits on a tripod, which is easily recognizable. It can't be called "vindictive or spiteful", because it's purpose it to stop a baby killing. It's there to make her aware that someone she knows may be made aware of her presence at the front door of this place, and hopefully to put the question in her mind as to why she may be ashamed for others to know that.
We represent the "last hope" of the babies about to be killed, so we have to try to come up with creative way to get through the wall of denial many of them have built up. These same women would not blink an eye if they encountered this same camera in front of their beauty shop, and yet many of them are obviously ashamed that they are being photographed here. My hope is to turn that shame into second thoughts about what they are about to do.
So for you to say "it doesn't save babies", without anything more than your opinion, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm out there trying to save babies in the best way I know how, and I think this is one of them.
That is because this one is more about giving serial killers a hug, than getting justice, and legal protection for their victums. But what do we know? We are just mean ole vendictive men. How dare we demand protection for the child, and deprive women of their post abortive boo hoo moment? Maybe you could use your camera to take pictures of all the serial killer huggs at their next meeting. Mite give you a little side line. Use the money for real pro-life work.
Now you are being silly! I have been going to the clinics for the last 12 years and I know that what I do works because I have seen the results. My objection to the posting the pics on the website is because the only purpose is to shame someone.
Jesus loves these women and wants them to come to Him, not to be driven away. And I apologize for the vindictive men statement. That was not very nice of me and I take it back. I was getting rather spiteful myself.
I am glad and thankful that you spend time at the clinics. I am not against post abortive ministry, as long as we do not make heroes out of murderers. It does not take courage to come forward, and we should not let confessed killers be honored as they are in some venues. This is a total slap in the face of the butchered womb child's memory. This is not a woman's issue, this is a womb child issue. It is all about the babies until they are no longer legally killed. If post abortive women want to help stop the killing, I am all for it. But we can take care of their problems after the children stop dying. We can ill afford to take hard to come by resources off of the front line to deal with problems which are self imposed. Some of the most effective activist at the clinics are the post abortive. We had a lady who was the best at talking women out of killing their kids. But she never made her self out to be this big heroe for bravely comming forward, but insted would say," it is the least I can do in memory of the children I killed. If I can save one woman the misery, and memory of murderering your own child, then maybe I can live with myself."I personally know Molly White, and think she does a great job in this area. But I have never seen her down play, or try to justify, murdering her children. ?Her and the ladies in her group are totally about the child. They have also helped me do the "I AM A PERSON" cards. They also use the windows to the womb board they got from us. I am willing to work with anyone as long as the focus is the child. We can take care of all these side issues when they are not legally slaughtered.
It is hard to go public with your abortion history. Look at all the mean spiritied stuff that you hcve posted, calling women killer moms and skanks and other names. Your friend Molly had two abortions. Do you call her a killer skank to her face? Or is that just rhetoric for the boards?
Every woman coming to the clinic is another Molly. We can reach her for Christ and she won't be another abortion causalty. Or we can be mean and push her to the other side. And since 1/ of all abortions are repeat, we may cause her not to have the second abortion because we told the truth and were mice to her and wanted to help her.

reply from: faithman

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues.
And your evidence that the use of photography will not save a baby would be.........?????
Most of the tactics we use in live protest are those that we choose simply because they appeal to our sense of what will get the message across best, and we don't often get feedback from those going in to kill their babies. So we have to be the judge of what works best. What do you use?
Personally I use a camera because where I protest we are, by law, kept at least 150 feet away from the front door of the abortuary, and have almost no chance to speak to those going in. That means we must use very large signs, or something that can be recognized from a distance. My camera sits on a tripod, which is easily recognizable. It can't be called "vindictive or spiteful", because it's purpose it to stop a baby killing. It's there to make her aware that someone she knows may be made aware of her presence at the front door of this place, and hopefully to put the question in her mind as to why she may be ashamed for others to know that.
We represent the "last hope" of the babies about to be killed, so we have to try to come up with creative way to get through the wall of denial many of them have built up. These same women would not blink an eye if they encountered this same camera in front of their beauty shop, and yet many of them are obviously ashamed that they are being photographed here. My hope is to turn that shame into second thoughts about what they are about to do.
So for you to say "it doesn't save babies", without anything more than your opinion, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm out there trying to save babies in the best way I know how, and I think this is one of them.
That is because this one is more about giving serial killers a hug, than getting justice, and legal protection for their victums. But what do we know? We are just mean ole vendictive men. How dare we demand protection for the child, and deprive women of their post abortive boo hoo moment? Maybe you could use your camera to take pictures of all the serial killer huggs at their next meeting. Mite give you a little side line. Use the money for real pro-life work.
Now you are being silly! I have been going to the clinics for the last 12 years and I know that what I do works because I have seen the results. My objection to the posting the pics on the website is because the only purpose is to shame someone.
Jesus loves these women and wants them to come to Him, not to be driven away. And I apologize for the vindictive men statement. That was not very nice of me and I take it back. I was getting rather spiteful myself.
I am glad and thankful that you spend time at the clinics. I am not against post abortive ministry, as long as we do not make heroes out of murderers. It does not take courage to come forward, and we should not let confessed killers be honored as they are in some venues. This is a total slap in the face of the butchered womb child's memory. This is not a woman's issue, this is a womb child issue. It is all about the babies until they are no longer legally killed. If post abortive women want to help stop the killing, I am all for it. But we can take care of their problems after the children stop dying. We can ill afford to take hard to come by resources off of the front line to deal with problems which are self imposed. Some of the most effective activist at the clinics are the post abortive. We had a lady who was the best at talking women out of killing their kids. But she never made her self out to be this big heroe for bravely comming forward, but insted would say," it is the least I can do in memory of the children I killed. If I can save one woman the misery, and memory of murderering your own child, then maybe I can live with myself."I personally know Molly White, and think she does a great job in this area. But I have never seen her down play, or try to justify, murdering her children. ?Her and the ladies in her group are totally about the child. They have also helped me do the "I AM A PERSON" cards. They also use the windows to the womb board they got from us. I am willing to work with anyone as long as the focus is the child. We can take care of all these side issues when they are not legally slaughtered.
It is hard to go public with your abortion history. Look at all the mean spiritied stuff that you hcve posted, calling women killer moms and skanks and other names. Your friend Molly had two abortions. Do you call her a killer skank to her face? Or is that just rhetoric for the boards?
Every woman coming to the clinic is another Molly. We can reach her for Christ and she won't be another abortion causalty. Or we can be mean and push her to the other side. And since 1/ of all abortions are repeat, we may cause her not to have the second abortion because we told the truth and were mice to her and wanted to help her.

reply from: pookiy1980

She is not asking for my forgiveness so if I opinion does not matter. Like wise with this guy.
Yes if she was to say I have sex with animlas and allthe things this guy has done yes I would
I dont need to you all already do
Thanks guys!

reply from: faithman

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues.
And your evidence that the use of photography will not save a baby would be.........?????
Most of the tactics we use in live protest are those that we choose simply because they appeal to our sense of what will get the message across best, and we don't often get feedback from those going in to kill their babies. So we have to be the judge of what works best. What do you use?
Personally I use a camera because where I protest we are, by law, kept at least 150 feet away from the front door of the abortuary, and have almost no chance to speak to those going in. That means we must use very large signs, or something that can be recognized from a distance. My camera sits on a tripod, which is easily recognizable. It can't be called "vindictive or spiteful", because it's purpose it to stop a baby killing. It's there to make her aware that someone she knows may be made aware of her presence at the front door of this place, and hopefully to put the question in her mind as to why she may be ashamed for others to know that.
We represent the "last hope" of the babies about to be killed, so we have to try to come up with creative way to get through the wall of denial many of them have built up. These same women would not blink an eye if they encountered this same camera in front of their beauty shop, and yet many of them are obviously ashamed that they are being photographed here. My hope is to turn that shame into second thoughts about what they are about to do.
So for you to say "it doesn't save babies", without anything more than your opinion, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm out there trying to save babies in the best way I know how, and I think this is one of them.
That is because this one is more about giving serial killers a hug, than getting justice, and legal protection for their victums. But what do we know? We are just mean ole vendictive men. How dare we demand protection for the child, and deprive women of their post abortive boo hoo moment? Maybe you could use your camera to take pictures of all the serial killer huggs at their next meeting. Mite give you a little side line. Use the money for real pro-life work.
Now you are being silly! I have been going to the clinics for the last 12 years and I know that what I do works because I have seen the results. My objection to the posting the pics on the website is because the only purpose is to shame someone.
Jesus loves these women and wants them to come to Him, not to be driven away. And I apologize for the vindictive men statement. That was not very nice of me and I take it back. I was getting rather spiteful myself.
I am glad and thankful that you spend time at the clinics. I am not against post abortive ministry, as long as we do not make heroes out of murderers. It does not take courage to come forward, and we should not let confessed killers be honored as they are in some venues. This is a total slap in the face of the butchered womb child's memory. This is not a woman's issue, this is a womb child issue. It is all about the babies until they are no longer legally killed. If post abortive women want to help stop the killing, I am all for it. But we can take care of their problems after the children stop dying. We can ill afford to take hard to come by resources off of the front line to deal with problems which are self imposed. Some of the most effective activist at the clinics are the post abortive. We had a lady who was the best at talking women out of killing their kids. But she never made her self out to be this big heroe for bravely comming forward, but insted would say," it is the least I can do in memory of the children I killed. If I can save one woman the misery, and memory of murderering your own child, then maybe I can live with myself."I personally know Molly White, and think she does a great job in this area. But I have never seen her down play, or try to justify, murdering her children. ?Her and the ladies in her group are totally about the child. They have also helped me do the "I AM A PERSON" cards. They also use the windows to the womb board they got from us. I am willing to work with anyone as long as the focus is the child. We can take care of all these side issues when they are not legally slaughtered.
It is hard to go public with your abortion history. Look at all the mean spiritied stuff that you hcve posted, calling women killer moms and skanks and other names. Your friend Molly had two abortions. Do you call her a killer skank to her face? Or is that just rhetoric for the boards?
Every woman coming to the clinic is another Molly. We can reach her for Christ and she won't be another abortion causalty. Or we can be mean and push her to the other side. And since 1/ of all abortions are repeat, we may cause her not to have the second abortion because we told the truth and were mice to her and wanted to help her.
Originally posted by: faithman Molly has openly admitted that abortion is murder. She also does not wear her abortions as some kind of medal that gives her voice more cedability than anyone else. I call pro-abort women skanks and killer mom's. Those names apply to those who believe in killing children. I call post abortive women confessed murderers. Unless of course, abortion isn't murder. I don't think I have yet called a post abortive prolifer a skank. I guess there could always be a first time.

reply from: carolemarie

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues.
And your evidence that the use of photography will not save a baby would be.........?????
Most of the tactics we use in live protest are those that we choose simply because they appeal to our sense of what will get the message across best, and we don't often get feedback from those going in to kill their babies. So we have to be the judge of what works best. What do you use?
Personally I use a camera because where I protest we are, by law, kept at least 150 feet away from the front door of the abortuary, and have almost no chance to speak to those going in. That means we must use very large signs, or something that can be recognized from a distance. My camera sits on a tripod, which is easily recognizable. It can't be called "vindictive or spiteful", because it's purpose it to stop a baby killing. It's there to make her aware that someone she knows may be made aware of her presence at the front door of this place, and hopefully to put the question in her mind as to why she may be ashamed for others to know that.
We represent the "last hope" of the babies about to be killed, so we have to try to come up with creative way to get through the wall of denial many of them have built up. These same women would not blink an eye if they encountered this same camera in front of their beauty shop, and yet many of them are obviously ashamed that they are being photographed here. My hope is to turn that shame into second thoughts about what they are about to do.
So for you to say "it doesn't save babies", without anything more than your opinion, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm out there trying to save babies in the best way I know how, and I think this is one of them.
That is because this one is more about giving serial killers a hug, than getting justice, and legal protection for their victums. But what do we know? We are just mean ole vendictive men. How dare we demand protection for the child, and deprive women of their post abortive boo hoo moment? Maybe you could use your camera to take pictures of all the serial killer huggs at their next meeting. Mite give you a little side line. Use the money for real pro-life work.
Now you are being silly! I have been going to the clinics for the last 12 years and I know that what I do works because I have seen the results. My objection to the posting the pics on the website is because the only purpose is to shame someone.
Jesus loves these women and wants them to come to Him, not to be driven away. And I apologize for the vindictive men statement. That was not very nice of me and I take it back. I was getting rather spiteful myself.
I am glad and thankful that you spend time at the clinics. I am not against post abortive ministry, as long as we do not make heroes out of murderers. It does not take courage to come forward, and we should not let confessed killers be honored as they are in some venues. This is a total slap in the face of the butchered womb child's memory. This is not a woman's issue, this is a womb child issue. It is all about the babies until they are no longer legally killed. If post abortive women want to help stop the killing, I am all for it. But we can take care of their problems after the children stop dying. We can ill afford to take hard to come by resources off of the front line to deal with problems which are self imposed. Some of the most effective activist at the clinics are the post abortive. We had a lady who was the best at talking women out of killing their kids. But she never made her self out to be this big heroe for bravely comming forward, but insted would say," it is the least I can do in memory of the children I killed. If I can save one woman the misery, and memory of murderering your own child, then maybe I can live with myself."I personally know Molly White, and think she does a great job in this area. But I have never seen her down play, or try to justify, murdering her children. ?Her and the ladies in her group are totally about the child. They have also helped me do the "I AM A PERSON" cards. They also use the windows to the womb board they got from us. I am willing to work with anyone as long as the focus is the child. We can take care of all these side issues when they are not legally slaughtered.
It is hard to go public with your abortion history. Look at all the mean spiritied stuff that you hcve posted, calling women killer moms and skanks and other names. Your friend Molly had two abortions. Do you call her a killer skank to her face? Or is that just rhetoric for the boards?
Every woman coming to the clinic is another Molly. We can reach her for Christ and she won't be another abortion causalty. Or we can be mean and push her to the other side. And since 1/ of all abortions are repeat, we may cause her not to have the second abortion because we told the truth and were mice to her and wanted to help her.
Originally posted by: faithman Molly has openly admitted that abortion is murder. She also does not wear her abortions as some kind of medal that gives her voice more cedability than anyone else. I call pro-abort women skanks and killer mom's. Those names apply to those who believe in killing children. I call post abortive women confessed murderers. Unless of course, abortion isn't murder. I don't think I have yet called a post abortive prolifer a skank. I guess there could always be a first time.
All of us say abortion is murder! If not we would still be for it! Molly has said that that it will be our voices (those who have had abortions) that will end abortion. Which I think is silly. It will be all the prolife people working together that God will use to end this holocaust.
Anyways, Molly works very hard to reach women who are considering abortion and to help those who have had them! She is very brave and tireless in speaking out and working to end abortion.
Those proabortion moms can change sides, and may listen to us if we are kind to them. Being kind opens doors to speak to those who are still in darkness.

reply from: faithman

Well, it doesn't! But it will hurt the woman and apparently that is the goal.
It is a vindicitive and spiteful thing to do, typical of a man with issues.
And your evidence that the use of photography will not save a baby would be.........?????
Most of the tactics we use in live protest are those that we choose simply because they appeal to our sense of what will get the message across best, and we don't often get feedback from those going in to kill their babies. So we have to be the judge of what works best. What do you use?
Personally I use a camera because where I protest we are, by law, kept at least 150 feet away from the front door of the abortuary, and have almost no chance to speak to those going in. That means we must use very large signs, or something that can be recognized from a distance. My camera sits on a tripod, which is easily recognizable. It can't be called "vindictive or spiteful", because it's purpose it to stop a baby killing. It's there to make her aware that someone she knows may be made aware of her presence at the front door of this place, and hopefully to put the question in her mind as to why she may be ashamed for others to know that.
We represent the "last hope" of the babies about to be killed, so we have to try to come up with creative way to get through the wall of denial many of them have built up. These same women would not blink an eye if they encountered this same camera in front of their beauty shop, and yet many of them are obviously ashamed that they are being photographed here. My hope is to turn that shame into second thoughts about what they are about to do.
So for you to say "it doesn't save babies", without anything more than your opinion, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm out there trying to save babies in the best way I know how, and I think this is one of them.
That is because this one is more about giving serial killers a hug, than getting justice, and legal protection for their victums. But what do we know? We are just mean ole vendictive men. How dare we demand protection for the child, and deprive women of their post abortive boo hoo moment? Maybe you could use your camera to take pictures of all the serial killer huggs at their next meeting. Mite give you a little side line. Use the money for real pro-life work.
Now you are being silly! I have been going to the clinics for the last 12 years and I know that what I do works because I have seen the results. My objection to the posting the pics on the website is because the only purpose is to shame someone.
Jesus loves these women and wants them to come to Him, not to be driven away. And I apologize for the vindictive men statement. That was not very nice of me and I take it back. I was getting rather spiteful myself.
I am glad and thankful that you spend time at the clinics. I am not against post abortive ministry, as long as we do not make heroes out of murderers. It does not take courage to come forward, and we should not let confessed killers be honored as they are in some venues. This is a total slap in the face of the butchered womb child's memory. This is not a woman's issue, this is a womb child issue. It is all about the babies until they are no longer legally killed. If post abortive women want to help stop the killing, I am all for it. But we can take care of their problems after the children stop dying. We can ill afford to take hard to come by resources off of the front line to deal with problems which are self imposed. Some of the most effective activist at the clinics are the post abortive. We had a lady who was the best at talking women out of killing their kids. But she never made her self out to be this big heroe for bravely comming forward, but insted would say," it is the least I can do in memory of the children I killed. If I can save one woman the misery, and memory of murderering your own child, then maybe I can live with myself."I personally know Molly White, and think she does a great job in this area. But I have never seen her down play, or try to justify, murdering her children. ?Her and the ladies in her group are totally about the child. They have also helped me do the "I AM A PERSON" cards. They also use the windows to the womb board they got from us. I am willing to work with anyone as long as the focus is the child. We can take care of all these side issues when they are not legally slaughtered.
It is hard to go public with your abortion history. Look at all the mean spiritied stuff that you hcve posted, calling women killer moms and skanks and other names. Your friend Molly had two abortions. Do you call her a killer skank to her face? Or is that just rhetoric for the boards?
Every woman coming to the clinic is another Molly. We can reach her for Christ and she won't be another abortion causalty. Or we can be mean and push her to the other side. And since 1/ of all abortions are repeat, we may cause her not to have the second abortion because we told the truth and were mice to her and wanted to help her.
Originally posted by: faithman Molly has openly admitted that abortion is murder. She also does not wear her abortions as some kind of medal that gives her voice more cedability than anyone else. I call pro-abort women skanks and killer mom's. Those names apply to those who believe in killing children. I call post abortive women confessed murderers. Unless of course, abortion isn't murder. I don't think I have yet called a post abortive prolifer a skank. I guess there could always be a first time.
All of us say abortion is murder! If not we would still be for it! Molly has said that that it will be our voices (those who have had abortions) that will end abortion. Which I think is silly. It will be all the prolife people working together that God will use to end this holocaust.
Anyways, Molly works very hard to reach women who are considering abortion and to help those who have had them! She is very brave and tireless in speaking out and working to end abortion.
Those proabortion moms can change sides, and may listen to us if we are kind to them. Being kind opens doors to speak to those who are still in darkness.
Look, what ever it takes. The problem I have, and some others as well, is this atitude That you just know better because you had one. "Being kind" is a way, but not the only way. I have seen security guards quit, as well as clinic workers and volunteers, when we hurassed the snot out of them. I have also shut the mouths of pro-aborts by out shouting them. You would do yourself a favor, as well as everyone else, if you didn't run your abortion experiance up the flag pole, and expect us to just rally around it. Some folk have a problem being talked down to by a confessed baby killer. The focus should always be the womb child, even if you can't see them.

reply from: yoda

Aw, I'll bet it hurt you REAL BAD to have to say "then great", didn't it? You wanted to keep putting him down soooo badly, didn't you? You just don't want him to have turned over a new leaf and have become a "good guy", do you?
For what it's worth, the guy is a full time preacher and antiabortion activist. He's dedicated his life to stopping abortion. Many people may disagree with his ideas for winning that victory, but he has given his entire life to it. And you, whose efforts consist mostly of posting on this forum, want to trash his entire life over something that happened decades ago, and for which he has repented? How very, very unkind of you........
I dont need to you all already do
NO NO, that doesn't count...... how about carole? She's admitted to having abortions, why aren't you trashing her? Why are you so kind to women who've killed their babies and asked to be forgiven, but not to this guy who has asked to be forgiven but has never killed anyone or any animal?
Do you just hate men, or what?

reply from: pookiy1980

You are soooo right it hurts me to say that this man has saves so many unborn babies...
Wrong, my advice is not to gamble you suck at bets.
....you enjoy putting words in other peoples mouth? I mean you think you can read someone's mind...
Thats your opinion. Your statement obviously tells me that the one (un) born baby I did help to save is not worthy to you, it also says the other (born) people are not important either.
unkind of me? tell me that when I save you from a burning house or save your wife or sister in a MVA then tell me how kind I am.
Would you also defend someone who had a past of rape, sex with the deceased, child molestation, supporting kids with drugs who is arrested and "saved" in jail who then becomes some Pl bigwig??
I dont need to you all already do
NO NO, that doesn't count...... how about carole? She's admitted to having abortions, why aren't you trashing her? Why are you so kind to women who've killed their babies and asked to be forgiven, but not to this guy who has asked to be forgiven but has never killed anyone or any animal?
Do you just hate men, or what?
Again you all are already doing it for me you and "FM".
You all are praising this guy like he a saint and somehow "forget" the man he used to be. You pick and choose who can act a fool in their past then change?
You talk about Carole??Yes she said she has had an abotion and now she is helping to save the lives of the unborn, should you be putting her on a pedestal with Neal Horsley? Oh that's right you just pick and choose..
Kind to woman who have had abortions? I only know one person who has had an abortion and I HAVE to be kind to her because she is a patient of mine. So tell me who am I being kind to?
This guy begged his gf to have an abortion sounds like a proabort skank to me.....
LOL! Do I hate men? where on earth do you come up with this stuff??
Why are you soooo defensive?? You tell others what we think, what we want, what we do????

reply from: yoda

Defend them from what, pookiy? Defend them from your personal attacks? Well, if I was convinced that their conversion was genuine, I sure would, yes! I would defend any person who had genuinely repented of their transgressions and was trying to make amends and trying to save babies, yes. Why is that so hard for you to do?
ANYONE can "act a fool" and change, pookiy...... didn't you know that? Why can't you forgive certain men who "act a fool", but you can forgive any woman? Personally, I can "forgive" any woman who says she is ashamed of her abortion and considers it a horrible, immoral thing for anyone to do..... I have no problem with that. Not that they need my "forgiveness", but I hold no grudges against such people who are trying to do prolife work. And yet you attack Neil as if he was the very devil himself.... why is that?
Yes, I consider her to be his moral equal in the fight against abortion. Why don't you consider them equals?
From your posts, pookiy. Tell me I'm wrong......

reply from: ladybug

in regards to the start of this.... I dont think that the camera thing is bad at all... if the girls that are going in for abortions are so... prochoice, then why are they ashamed? the only reason they would be ashamed is if they thought what they were doing is wrong.... so more power to this guy. I say go for it. if you dont want everyone to know you kill your children, dont go have abortions!!!

reply from: pookiy1980

From your posts, pookiy. Tell me I'm wrong......
Yoda you are wrong.
This is acomplishing nothing, very elementry. You have your opinions I have mine so be it.
I assume you will take this post like some "victory" or whatever and if thats what turns you on so be it.
I give up yoda I am not going to continue to defend my dislike for the actions that (in this post) Neal did.

reply from: whydeath

I think exposing these woman is a good thing. I have seen on many pro life web pages pictures of woman going into these clinics. So many look so ashamed (should be).
I do not know the legality behind photographing people unwillingly. They are in public so I would think that would cover any legal issues.

reply from: JaysonsMom

I agree with you. If they aren't ashamed, they shouldn't care if their picture is taken. As far as the legality, I'm not sure about that. I do think that WhyDeath has a point with it being public domain, maybe it's all right. I'm just not sure. I'll do some research on that.
Amy

reply from: yoda

Thanks for your comments, and don't concern yourself with it. Unlike moonwoman, I already know the legal situation, and so does Planned Parenthood. They have released statements admitting that it's perfectly legal. And if more proof is needed, just ask moonie to cite any arrests or lawsuits over the taking of photos in public. You know for sure the proaborts have thoroughly researched this matter long, long ago......

reply from: JaysonsMom

I'm sure they have. Thanks for your comments!
Amy

reply from: carolemarie

I agree with you. If they aren't ashamed, they shouldn't care if their picture is taken. As far as the legality, I'm not sure about that. I do think that WhyDeath has a point with it being public domain, maybe it's all right. I'm just not sure. I'll do some research on that.
Amy
It still is mean spirited and cruel. After the baby is aborted, what good is posting the picture? The only purpose it serves is that you can hope she is shamed and punished by it. It is unworthy of those who claim to represent Jesus.

reply from: ladybug

It isn't very christian, you are right. However, in some horrible way as maybe if they think they are being judged they may think twice about committing such a horrible sin.

reply from: faithman

I agree with you. If they aren't ashamed, they shouldn't care if their picture is taken. As far as the legality, I'm not sure about that. I do think that WhyDeath has a point with it being public domain, maybe it's all right. I'm just not sure. I'll do some research on that.
Amy
It still is mean spirited and cruel. After the baby is aborted, what good is posting the picture? The only purpose it serves is that you can hope she is shamed and punished by it. It is unworthy of those who claim to represent Jesus.
That is because you are void of any understanding of the concept of justice. I think it is mean spirited and cruel to have a child torn into pieces, and thrown away. I think it is mean spirited and cruel to dishonor the memory of a dead child by giving their killer a free walk. I think it is mean spirited and cruel to hide behind false niceness, and deny the womb child the same protection that a born child enjoys. I think it is mean spirited and cruel to make up your own fantacy Jesus, who ignores justice in the affairs of men. I think it is mean spirited and cruel to send the killer of a born child to prison, and let the killer of the womb child go, under the pretence of neo-christianity. If you want to look at mean spirited and cruel, get a miror. You want to cover up your own crime against the womb child, by lecturing us on how mean we are that we want this crime stopped, and yes, the criminals punished. You killed a child. We dont need to be talked down to by you about mean spirited and cruel.

reply from: ThomasRNV

It still is mean spirited and cruel. After the baby is aborted, what good is posting the picture? The only purpose it serves is that you can hope she is shamed and punished by it. It is unworthy of those who claim to represent Jesus.
I've been thinking about that. A reason could be to prevent her from having another abortion.
As for punishment I'm all for it. If I could I would seek punishment for what happened to my daughter. Well I already kind of did. I made it so she can no longer lie to her family & friends by calling my daughters death a miscarriage. Though I would rather see that murderer behind bars for atleast 30 years.

reply from: carolemarie

I am sorry for your pain.
I know that you don't want to hear this, but sex outside of marriage sets up the situtation for abortion. You were sleeping with this woman who you were not married to. That already says that you didn't care enough about her to wait, to sacrifice your desires till you were married. If you had been waiting till you were marrried, she wouldn't have been pregnant and this all wouldn't have happen.
Sexual immorality leads to abortion. Your actions played a part it this tragedy as well.
I am truely sorry that you are having to go through all of this! You have lost a child and you hurt, and I am sorry that you can't get your baby back. But bitterness and anger is only hurting you.
God can heal your heart, you need to take all this pain to Him and ask Him to heal you. Posting on this board and venting anger are not going to help you heal.
You need to find peace and I will be praying that you find that.

reply from: yoda

Well, I don't make that claim, so I guess you'll cut me some slack, right? Oh no.. wait... you want to read me out of the prolife movement all together, don't you?
You remind me a lot of moonie, you seem to talk most about what you know least about. If the photos are not posted anywhere, the mills will find out about it, and will tell the customers in advance that the camera is there "just for show" and isn't really working.
But really, shame and even punishment are legitimate parts of our moral experience here, aren't they? Or do you propose a world in which no action, no matter how horrible, will cause anyone to be ashamed of themselves? Is that the world you want? Have you ever raised any kids that way? If you have, then I'm sure you have the biggest brats in town, because shame and punishment are two of the best tools for teaching morals to kids...... both big and small.

reply from: yoda

I guess it helps a person to feel better about what they did if they soft-pedal the same action by others. Too bad some people can't see that tearing a baby into pieces is more mean spirited and cruel than taking a photo of a woman who is about to do just that.

reply from: ladybug

Im sorry Carole but I just cannot agree with you about premarital sex.. now I say that because i did have premarital sex at a young age, and am still with that person today. abortion never even crossed my mind when i got pregnant, and our girls are thriving with both of us and we have our family's full support, even though we were not raised to have babies out of wedlock. .. so i really dont think that having a baby out of wedlock is a main reason for abortion. I was raised catholic so i can see where you might get your views but they are very one sided. i am not positive about the statistics but there are many married couples that have kids already and then get abortions because they dont want anymore children.. or they aren't ready for kids yet and they have abortions and keep their kids later on in life.

reply from: MoonLady

For those of you who are convinced that there is nothing illegal about photographing others in public, here's what just happened in my neck of the woods.
There was a large swim meet (several hundred kids competeing) at a local pool. Parents noticed a man with a camcorder recording the swimmers. Several recognized him as the same man who had been seen recording at other swim meets and knew that he was not a parent, coach or friendly visitor.
The police were called, the man was arrested for disorderly conduct, he was removed from the area and his film was confiscated.
Now, I know there are skeptics out there, so here is the link:
http://www.delmarvanow.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070620/NEWS01/70620013/1002/NEWS01

Has anyone else been arrested for taping/photographing in public?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1850856/posts

And a guide to privacy requirements and expectations:
http://www.rcfp.org/photoguide/intro.html

reply from: ladybug

yes.. but put two and two together moonlady.... no one knew who he was or why he was there... children.. in swimsuits..... can you think why he was arrested???????????????????????? use some commen sense lady!!

reply from: MoonLady

Yes, Dear, I understand that. But did you read the other links? They have nothing to do with pedophiles.

reply from: ladybug

i wasn't referring to the links, i was referring to the reason that they arrested the man... they suspected the guy was a pedophile.. so they arrested him, and their suspicions were correct. Now on what suspicion would a pl be arrested? that they were filming for some pregnancy fetish?????

reply from: carolemarie

Well, I don't make that claim, so I guess you'll cut me some slack, right? Oh no.. wait... you want to read me out of the prolife movement all together, don't you?
You remind me a lot of moonie, you seem to talk most about what you know least about. If the photos are not posted anywhere, the mills will find out about it, and will tell the customers in advance that the camera is there "just for show" and isn't really working.
But really, shame and even punishment are legitimate parts of our moral experience here, aren't they? Or do you propose a world in which no action, no matter how horrible, will cause anyone to be ashamed of themselves? Is that the world you want? Have you ever raised any kids that way? If you have, then I'm sure you have the biggest brats in town, because shame and punishment are two of the best tools for teaching morals to kids...... both big and small.
First, I don't want you out of the pro-life movement.
And I do cut you slack. I don't really expect you to care about those you have decided are not deserving of your concern.
If this world and life is all there is, then I guess your main concern should be to see that everyone who violates what you believe is correct to be punished.

reply from: carolemarie

It is not the only reason obviously and yes, the largest category of women having abortions now are married women with one child.The second largest is unmarried women who are 18-25. They cite being to young, being alone, having college/high school to finish, not ready to be parents, no support as reasons.

reply from: yoda

One had to do with making an audio recording illegally, and the other was a general overview of SCOTUS rulings. Nothing in either link applied to what we are talking about..... but why am I not surprised?
So you are stubbornly still trying to say that YOU can find a legal justification for arresting or suing abortion clinic photographers, when all the proaborts in PP and NARAL have thrown up their hands and given up? Do you think they don't know how to google, or what?
You just won't admit ANY error, will you?

reply from: yoda

Ever hear of reincarnation? Even us agnostics consider that a possibility..... look it up sometime, it's an interesting subject.
But punishment is the least of my concerns, I see it useful only as a tool to save babies..... and I don't think that patting everyone on the back right after they've killed their baby is necessarily the best approach, I really don't.

reply from: carolemarie

The main difference is that you go to the clinic to stop abortion. That is why you are there.
I go to the clinics to reach the women (and the others there) for Christ. It is about their souls as well as the life of their child. And if they still choose abortion, it is still about their souls. My main purpose is to glorify God, not end abortion. God is the one who can end abortion, not me.
Our motives are different, so naturally would be our methods.

reply from: Adia

Now this may sound stupid to you. My question is what is the real effect of filming these women's face, and broadcasting it across the internet or any other source of communication Medias? Yes they will be ashamed for what they did, and don't get me wrong I could careless if they are, but what have we thought these individuals really. By doing this we have not educated anyone on facts and reasons why not to have abortions(which has sometimes I can say feels like a losing battle, but never the less I still educate as many that will listen). Yes we proved that the act is immoral and quite frankly sickening and cruel to unborn children that do not yet have voices of their own to speak against these acts. But where is the education the leadership the responsibility that we have as community. By doing this I feel we have only become the modern day witch hunters (even if it is legal) pointing our cameras at there already ashamed faces. These individuals know that they are wrong for what they did and there is no doubt that they feel sick for what they have done. But they are only human and they make mistakes like we all do. I for one forgive these individuals and there sins like any Christian should, because I honestly believe that we should, and when we are in the process we should be educating so that maybe we can make a difference. I read this word earlier "reincarnation". I love this word. I believe we are all reincarnated. And I know this may sound stupid once again but I believe before we reincarnate we step aside set up a life plain that we all will follow once we are place on this earth. In this life plain we are to learn little lessons or experiences in order to grow closer to god. Meaning (and again this will sound stupid to some one) I believe we all design our own faith on how we are going to live, for how long, and how we are all going to die. Meaning (and takes this how ever you will) these unborn souls (and this dose sound sick) have already chosen to die like this. It an experience or lesson that this souls need to have or learn in order to move one more level up. Just how are every day life and experiences bring us closer to god now.
Never the less say what you like there is no shame to film these people this is what they chose to learn from and I can not deny there soul of that lesson, but I will not deny my self from the learning experience to stop such individuals.

reply from: yoda

Well, you've got me there. I can't argue with that.
But I'm curious..... if reaching people for Christ is your goal, why restrict yourself to abortion clinics? Isn't the world full of people whom you could be reaching out to? Why just abortion clinics, or why mainly abortion clinics?

reply from: yoda

Welcome to the forum, Adia.
We've been having a long discussion about this subject, and I think if you'll read this whole thread you'll find some of the answers to your questions. Oh, and don't worry about appearing stupid here, that would just make you fit right in!

reply from: yoda

What a nasty, bloodthirsty, baby killing woman you are.........

reply from: carolemarie

Well, you've got me there. I can't argue with that.
But I'm curious..... if reaching people for Christ is your goal, why restrict yourself to abortion clinics? Isn't the world full of people whom you could be reaching out to? Why just abortion clinics, or why mainly abortion clinics?
I go to jails and strip clubs as well. Places were women fall into sin and need rescuing. And places were most Christians don't want to go. There is a story in the bible where Jesus healed 10 leapers and only one returned to thank Him. I am returning to where I was to thank the God who delievered me by helping those who are there now.

reply from: ladybug

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
What a petty, petty, little man you are.
I'm sure that your ex and her new man are discussing your inadequecies and laughing their asses off. I know that they will have love, happiness, and each other for the rest of their days.
***************************
You encourage women to lie to their husbands... to keep secrets from their families. Once again I bring up the fact that if you women are so fully in support of abortion why do you feel embarrassed by it? Why do you feel the need to hide it from people? You are one of those women that you see on the streets and know immediatly there is something that just doesn't sit quite right. I really hope and pray you never put a man through that horror of not having a choice on what happens with his unborn child.

reply from: ThomasRNV

[q
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
What a petty, petty, little man you are.
I'm sure that your ex and her new man are discussing your inadequecies and laughing their asses off. I know that they will have love, happiness, and each other for the rest of their days.
Hahahahahaha, actually her new ex bf dumped her because he is Pro Life. He thanked me for warning him of exactly what kind of woman she is.
Though I am sure she'll have a wonderful relationship someday based on Lies. Or maybe she'll marry a butcher.
Oh and you are a baby killer. Even if you've never had an abortion yourself, your support of it makes you a killer.
I may be petty but, I'm also cold-hearted & hold a grudge for years. And I've found out she had an abortion at 14 weeks, That's illegal where we lived, 12 weeks is the limit. So I might actually be able to take her to court. I'm talking with a lawyer now.
Oh Joy, justice will be served. Then I can wash my hands of her.

reply from: ladybug

i say good for you thomas. You are right it is petty, but if at some point she could be prosecuted that may open some door, no matter how small to opening up the abortion issue for even more people that choose to ignore it.

reply from: ThomasRNV

Only problem is that law is farely old, They may have new laws that allow abs at 14 weeks. If so I found out I can still sue her for pain & suffering. Is'nt the law wonderful, in some cases.
Hopefully this will open up some doors. Hell if I could, I'd press 1st degree murder charges against her.
On another note, I saw an interesting video of a Pro Choice demonstration in Ireland (Pro Life country) and all the demonstrators were wearing masks. So that got me to thinking who else wears masks at demonstrations for their beliefs, I only came up with one group. the KKK. Interesting is it not.
Back to the main topic.
My friend has been using his camera at the clinic lately & had a young woman come up to him & ask why. he explained, they started talking and long story short one more life saved. She even said if it was a boy she was naming it after him. He had the hugest smile when he told me about that.
Any one have that happen to them?

reply from: xnavy

that is wonderful, your friend was able to talk some one out of an abortion.

reply from: Teresa18

That doesn't work. Yoda has shown you definitions proving that the terms baby and child are applicable. You never address them. You run from the thread, and then you spew your filth in another thread. Your thirst for the blood of tiny babies is absolutely sickening. I certainly wouldn't want to be you on Judgement Day.

reply from: ThomasRNV

Notice how she is still running away from Facts. Instead she is wasting her time insulting me. It's great.
Here I'll find some of those facts you speak of. Make it so she'll have to run from this topic as well.
MSN-Encarta Online:ba·by noun (plural ba·bies) 2. unborn child: a child that is still in the womb ( http://dictionary.msn.com/find/entry.asp?search=baby )
Dictionary.com ba·by (bb) n. pl. ba·bies 2. An unborn child; a fetus. ( http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=baby )
iNFOPLEASE.com ba.by pronunciation: (bA'bE), -n. 5. a human fetus. ( http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0330371.html )
INTELLIHEALTH: "Month 2: Measures 14-20mm from crown to rump. The baby's heart, although not fully formed, begins to beat and is visible. Medical content reviewed by the Faculty of the Harvard Medical School. Last updated August 14, 2004.
http://www.intelihealth.com/IH...,331|~r,WSRNM000|~b,*|
BIOTECH Life Sciences Dictionary: http://biotech.icmb.utexas.edu...h_type=normal&def=baby 2. Edward's Syndrome ( Edwards' syndrome, trisomy 18, trisomy E) Definition:
A congenital disorder caused by a baby having an extra copy of chromosome 18 (three instead of the normal two). Characteristics of the disorder include a large number of different malformed organs and malformed physical features of the face and skeletal structure. In most cases, the child dies before it is born; 90% of babies born live die within a year of birth. Symptoms may be less severe when the trisomy occurs after fertilization during mitosis in the zygote (10% of cases), than when the trisomy occurs during the meiosis which produced the egg or sperm (90% of cases).
For more information, visit http://www.icondata.com/health...e/files/TRISOMY2.HTM.
STEDMAN'S Online Medical Dictionary: http://www.stedmans.com/section.cfm/45
Baby: Sorry, but the Stedman's Online Medical Dictionary-Abridged doesn't include a definition for this term.
Courtesy of Yodavater.
_________________________________________
(edit) Wow perfect timing.

reply from: ladybug

really i dont know why we even argue with spinwiddy.. she already admitted she supports the murder of our most innocent precious beings, really God will take care of her when it is time... its definantly not our place to judge, but there is no use wasting our breath on deaf ears. Especially ones that already know they support murder and understand exactly what abortion means.

reply from: Teresa18

Yeah. We've learned that quickly by reading your posts.
Considering Thomas said she already aborted 3 healthy babies, I seriously wonder about that.
Everyone should pay close attention to this post. It's no surprise you would rather be a killer. It's just you are a coward of a killer. Your target is innocent children in the earliest stages of development. Little babies can't fight back.
If I were Thomas, I'd say back at you. From your posts here, I get the feeling you would never have children. Your hatred towards children is overwhelmingly strong. It makes me wonder little babies in the womb ever did to you.
Sadly for you, there is a God. You'll meet him someday, as we all will. Something just tells me that you might regret your promotion of aborting babies then.

reply from: Adia

Please don't get me wrong I am not defending spinwiddy's lack of knowledge on the subject. But you say you don't pass judgement but yet you say God will take care of spinwiddy in time. Funny that sound like you have already judged and sentence spinwiddy, and left God out of the loop love. Yeah I don't aprove of her view points and no I am not backing up her words but they are her opions, ideas, and actions and nothing more than cruelty and hate. But to sit there and say God will take car of her in time, come on really. I distinctly remeber God being a forgiving god. IAs devoted Christian I believe no matter the sin you comit God still gives you the chance for forgives wither you take it is up to you. By the way you can thank the bible for that little loop hole. So what if your words or any one else words fall on spinwiddy's deaf ears. Some one is reading this meaning our words are heard some where.

reply from: 4given

God does forgive all.. through repentance and remission. It is a sure thing w/out judgment on earth that if one's heart is not made right before God prior to the day of reckoning- they will surely die! ETERNALLY! So maybe this is someone you can pray for.. that their eyes and ears are open to the reality of it all.. the bloody palms of Jesus, the bloodied corpses of innocent babes- murdered for convenience.. the fact that anyone can understand what an abortion is and still try to defend it.. It is shameful, evil and corrupt! God doesn't just hand out forgiveness to anyone.. It is for EVERYONE, but THEY need to seek HIM!

reply from: Teresa18

4Given explains this quite well, but I wish to clarify on my behalf. This is your second post, and I am not certain of how long you have been viewing this board. However, spinwiddy has a disdain for the unborn child and a strong support for abortion. She is often unkind to those on the forum, especially Thomas who is grieving the loss of his child via abortion. Spinwiddy has referred to the child as a "wad of mindless crotch goo", "like fat sucked out of my (her) leg", and so on. She ignores many of our posts, especially Yoda's posts that prove that the terms child and baby are applicable to the zef in the womb. I don't think she believes in God, so my comments are falling on deaf ears anyway. Now I am willing to debate people who do not believe in God or that the unborn child is a person. I just wish she would be a bit more respectful.
We are all going to be judged some day when we die. I have no claim to perfection. Nor do I know where I may wind up some day. That is why I attempt to live a good life, even though I do fall short at times. Spinwiddy has every chance to go to Heaven as you or I. She just has to accept Jesus Christ and turn away from sin, as we all have to. She also has to stop promoting abortion. She has made known that she is very aware of what abortion is, and she promotes birth control and donations to Planned Parenthood. The destruction of another life in the womb is probably the greatest horror of our times today. We must stop it!

reply from: yoda

You know, calling a baby by it's scientific name "fetus" does not change the fact that is IS a baby.... did you know that?

reply from: yoda

Okay, so the fight against abortion is not really your main focus?

reply from: yoda

Terrific story. Unfortunately, where I protest we are kept so far away from the clinic entrance that it's very rare we get a chance to speak to any of the customers. Today I did see a customer pull in, look around, and leave... but of course I have no way of knowing why. I can only hope that the presence of protesters there was partly responsible.

reply from: Adia

I agree it is for everyone, but your wrong when you say we need to seek god for forgiveness. God does not need to be seeked or found. God is already in us all no matter who the person is or what they say. Wiether we ask for forgiveness or not God has allready has done it, we are his children. Spinwiddy does not have to accept Jesus Christ b/c he has all ready accepted Spinwiddy. As for you Teresa my reply was not directed at what you said at all. In fact if I had not had to edit my post after posting it it would have been right before your post. But if I caused any bad feeling please accepted my deepest apologies. And though I have only began to post and read on this subject I am here not really to make people upset but to educate myself and maybe chim in from time to time with a thought or an idea. I am sorry for your loss Thomas it is something I can not understand on a parents prospective but I understand your loss never the less. But the crule words that spew from the fingers of Spinwiddy are nothing more than to get a rise from any of us all. I am sure that Spinwiddy is not a bad person in reallity and in fact or hopefully has a heart (of course this me believing that their is good in all). But then again I don't know this person at all it just mybelief in hummanty that makes me see hope in some one else. And you are right Teresa the unborn children are people but as I said before I believe in reincarnation. And I believe before we are all born we decied with god on how we live, die, and what leasons we must learn here on earth. I just feel there is a deeper reason on why abortions happen. Yes these children do not have choices while in their mothers I agree, but I feel the soul has made that choice with god on why they are being put through this journey before being placed in a human body. I feel that it's a leason that the soul is teaching or learning. Life is a lesson no matter what stage in life you are in. But again these are only my thoughts. Yes we must stop it but to say that this is the greatest horror of our times today will is just your opinion. Yes this is horrific there are other trafides just as horrific ( Just my opinion though) Any way love to all even you Spinwiddy and God bless you all!

reply from: yoda

Now you're trying to equate "dependent" with "child"? There are certain legal requirement for a child to be declared a dependent, which most people are aware of, but of course, I'm thinking of people who actually "think".....
Your thirst for baby's blood is so acute that you have even stopped thinking.

reply from: ThomasRNV

4Given explains this quite well, but I wish to clarify on my behalf. This is your second post, and I am not certain of how long you have been viewing this board. However, spinwiddy has a disdain for the unborn child and a strong support for abortion. She is often unkind to those on the forum, especially Thomas who is grieving the loss of his child via abortion. Spinwiddy has referred to the child as a "wad of mindless crotch goo", "like fat sucked out of my (her) leg", and so on. She ignores many of our posts, especially Yoda's posts that prove that the terms child and baby are applicable to the zef in the womb. I don't think she believes in God, so my comments are falling on deaf ears anyway. Now I am willing to debate people who do not believe in God or that the unborn child is a person. I just wish she would be a bit more respectful.
We are all going to be judged some day when we die. I have no claim to perfection. Nor do I know where I may wind up some day. That is why I attempt to live a good life, even though I do fall short at times. Spinwiddy has every chance to go to Heaven as you or I. She just has to accept Jesus Christ and turn away from sin, as we all have to. She also has to stop promoting abortion. She has made known that she is very aware of what abortion is, and she promotes birth control and donations to Planned Parenthood. The destruction of another life in the womb is probably the greatest horror of our times today. We must stop it!
hehe she does'nt bother me. Actually reading her posts is one of the very few things that make me laugh nowadays. So atleast she is doing some good even if that's not her intention.
On another note I'm going to be moving cross country 5 day trip. I hope the NV laws let me get closer to the clinics.
Gotta go.

reply from: yoda

Interesting, isn't it.... that spinny cites the IRS as an authority on the definition of a "dependent", but does not quote nor link us to a definition of a legal dependent..... could it be that she knows it would make her look even more stupid?

reply from: Adia

I must have missed this post. I am glad to have read it. That is the story that makes me believe in hummanity.

reply from: yoda

You're misusing the word "judge", which in it's most common usage simply means to "form an opinion". We have indeed formed an opinion of spinny, but more importantly we are trying to defeat her arguments about killing babies.... because we know that other people may be reading these posts. Focus on what we need to say to convince others that spinny is WRONG.... and let us worry about whether we are being too "harsh" in our opinions of her, please.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Hahahahahaha, actually her new ex bf dumped her because he is Pro Life. He thanked me for warning him of exactly what kind of woman she is.
Though I am sure she'll have a wonderful relationship someday based on Lies. Or maybe she'll marry a butcher.
Oh and you are a baby killer. Even if you've never had an abortion yourself, your support of it makes you a killer.
I may be petty but, I'm also cold-hearted & hold a grudge for years. And I've found out she had an abortion at 14 weeks, That's illegal where we lived, 12 weeks is the limit. So I might actually be able to take her to court. I'm talking with a lawyer now.
Oh Joy, justice will be served. Then I can wash my hands of her.
Getting justice for your child isn't petty - it's noble.

reply from: 4given

I agree.. It is noble.. and I have missed you Shiprahagain!

reply from: carolemarie

Okay, so the fight against abortion is not really your main focus?
Evangelism is my main focus. Everything else is 2nd place. God first, then the cause. My minstry focus is women.

reply from: 4given

I agree it is for everyone, but your wrong when you say we need to seek god for forgiveness.
The Lord is with you, while ye be with Him:and if ye seek Him,He will be found of you: but if ye forsake Him, He will forsake you.. @ Chronicles 15:2
God does not need to be seeked or found. God is already in us all no matter who the person is or what they say. Wiether we ask for forgiveness or not God has allready has done it, we are his children.
But without faith it is impossible to please Him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that He is the rewarder of them that dilligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6 Spinwiddy does not have to accept Jesus Christ b/c he has all ready accepted Spinwiddy.
Whether or noty one seeks
The Lord is good unto them that wait for Him, to the soul that seeketh Him Lamentations 3:25
For thus saith the Lord unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live.. Amos 5:4
The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek Him: but His power and His wrath is against all that forsake Him" Ezra 8:22
As for you Teresa my reply was not directed at what you said at all. In fact if I had not had to edit my post after posting it it would have been right before your post. But if I caused any bad feeling please accepted my deepest apologies. And though I have only began to post and read on this subject I am here not really to make people upset but to educate myself and maybe chim in from time to time with a thought or an idea. I am sorry for your loss Thomas it is something I can not understand on a parents prospective but I understand your loss never the less. But the crule words that spew from the fingers of Spinwiddy are nothing more than to get a rise from any of us all. I am sure that Spinwiddy is not a bad person in reallity and in fact or hopefully has a heart (of course this me believing that their is good in all). But then again I don't know this person at all it just mybelief in hummanty that makes me see hope in some one else. And you are right Teresa the unborn children are people but as I said before I believe in reincarnation. And I believe before we are all born we decied with god on how we live, die, and what leasons we must learn here on earth. I just feel there is a deeper reason on why abortions happen. Yes these children do not have choices while in their mothers I agree, but I feel the soul has made that choice with god on why they are being put through this journey before being placed in a human body. I feel that it's a leason that the soul is teaching or learning. Life is a lesson no matter what stage in life you are in. But again these are only my thoughts. Yes we must stop it but to say that this is the greatest horror of our times today will is just your opinion. Yes this is horrific there are other trafides just as horrific ( Just my opinion though) Any way love to all even you Spinwiddy and God bless you all!
I don't know how much more I need to relate to you.. I have an understanding that may differ from yours.. but the debates on this forum surely need to be about the saving of an innocent life.. not the understanding of God's Holy Word.. Although I am always willing to discuss the Scriptures and anyone's philosophy on the TRUTH and entering into the Kingdom.. I encourage it.. Philosophy however may encourage a neccessity to squander..which inconsequently diverts attention from the reality that needs to be the focus of it all.. ABORTION(murder) and the SAVING OF HUMAN LIFE!!!

reply from: ThomasRNV

nvm. posing is a waste of time.

reply from: Adia

but the debates on this forum surely need to be about the saving of an innocent life.. not the understanding of God's Holy Word.. ABORTION(murder) and the SAVING OF HUMAN LIFE!!!
Sorry but I feel to under stand God is to under stand the reasons why abortions happen and is a dam good way to save a human life

reply from: Shiprahagain

Thanks, I've missed y'all, too. I'm spending summer back at college, so I can't spend as much time here.

reply from: yoda

Okay, I can respect that, believe it or not. But that leads me to wonder why you are here on a forum that is obviously dedicated to stopping abortion, rather than doing what you say is your main focus. Personally, I was drawn to LDI and to this forum for that very reason, as I have never felt any sort of discrimination here due to my lack of religious conviction. LDI seems to me to be first, last, and always dedicated to the war against abortion, and that is how I approach my activism.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Carolemarie, I respect your need to evangelize -- which as a Christian is mine too, but the Bible says to hold off those headed for slaughter. In other words, the primary focus is to protect the innocent first, not try to change the hearts of the slaughterers with protecting the innocent as a close second. Even as Christians if we see someone raping somebody, the primary goal is to protect the victim, not to evangelize to the rapist -- at that point. Later on we can visit the prison and preach to the rapist but right then the priority is to save the victim and whether or not the rapist finds God is of secondary value.

reply from: faithman

The primary focus must be the life of the child. The central reason "pro-life" is fractured, is because everyone wants to pony their personal agendas onto the issue. The more poluted the issue becomes, the more the womb child gets lost in the mirky waters. Nothing speaks louder for the womb child, than their preborn image. When we magnify the image of the womb child, our light becomes focussed and burns abortion down everytime. When we allow side issues to control the pro-life lense, Our light is scattered, and our vission is blurred, as to what our purpose is. Our primary purpose must be the restoration of personhood to the womb child. Let's save the baby, then we can worry about what church mommy goes to.

reply from: carolemarie

God is the only one who can end abortion. Life Dynamics can't, you can't and I can't. That is because abortion is sin. We can't stop fallen men from doing evil. In fact, abortion is called good and protected by law in our country. It isn't even recognized as wrong in our land.
The solution to sin is the gospel. Abortion is a gospel issue. I fight abortion using biblical solutions, because I believe that is all that will work. I don't think standing on the curb with a sign will end it, unless God lends His power to that person with the sign. If God is not with us, we will never change the laws in this country. I believe God is FOR us, and FOR the babies and their parents and wants to reach all of them. I want abortion stopped too. I just expect God to do it.

reply from: carolemarie

I agree, that is why I go and try to head off those who are so lost that they think killing their babies will fix their problems. They need a change of heart! That is how you save the baby. I care what happens to the baby as well as the women. I care about both of them.
Abortion is not a crime, and from the looks of things we are a long way from getting it to be one. That is why the comparisions of criminals to customers don't hold water. If they abort, they are going to walk out of the clinic to continue their life. If you don't want them to come back, then you need to reach them.
And one of the more disturbing things can be helping a woman chose life for the baby this time, yet the next pregnancy brings her back. I have talked to women who have 7 born children at the clinic to kill the 8th! Without God our human reasoning and consciences give us our morals. But our hearts are wicked and we can't even know our own hearts! We have to rely on Gods wisdom.

reply from: carolemarie

Mark is a Christian, and I am sure that he believes that God is the one who will end abortion.

reply from: lifted

god uses people for his glory. it seems like you are posting in response to yourself. am i right? but whatever. we have free will. that is why people can kill or whatever else. it is legal to slaughter our young. in the safest place they can be. it is odd. but we are responsible for our own undoing. by we -i mean anyone that chooses to kill or promote the killing of their offspring and any others. god gave us freedom of choice. you can live as you want and face the consequences or abstain from evil and the consequences again are there. maybe not as dismal though.

reply from: faithman

That is where you are wrong. The I AM A PERSON poster most assuredly stops abortion whether it is acompanied by the gospel or not. I have seen total secularist use it with success. Then we should do away with all prisons if we can't stop folk from doing evil, RIGHT? What ya say oh great wise one? SSSSSSOOOOO now we need to just bow down to a confessed baby killer, who claims to have found God? And just which form of the gospel are you talking about? Penacostalism, calvanism, catholosism? SSSSSOOOOO lets just smear religious prejudice all over the issue while the babies die. GREAT PLAN!!

reply from: yoda

Then why don't you just sit on your hands and wait for Him to stop it? Why are you wasting your time here or at those abortuaries? You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth! Either we have a duty to do something, or we don't... which is it?
Oh, and btw, you don't speak for Mark Crutcher, so please don't presume to do so.

reply from: carolemarie

God works through us. But without Him on your side, your efforts won't change anything. He is the one who will end abortion. Only He has that power.
I never said not to go out and work with the Holy Spirit to end abortion. But if you go without God it will fail.
Then why don't you just sit on your hands and wait for Him to stop it? Why are you wasting your time here or at those abortuaries? You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth! Either we have a duty to do something, or we don't... which is it?
Oh, and btw, you don't speak for Mark Crutcher, so please don't presume to do so.

reply from: carolemarie

I was responding to others but had issues with the quote button!
Sorry about that, it is confusing to read!

reply from: carolemarie

1. Abortion isn't ended. While a person may change their mind, abortion is still going on.
2. Many people see the sign and still have an abortion.
3. Some people change their minds with one pregnancy, yet abort the next baby.
4. I never said not to go and try to change that one mind. That is great. But it is not ending abortion, it is just stopping this abortion. Your postcards have the gospel message on it! Is that just for show, or do you hope they will find out about Jesus? Do you not believe that devotion to Jesus will help a person resist sin, which abortion is?
God alone has the power to end abortion. You don't, I don't and no organization does. God alone does. If any of us did, it would be ended already.
That is where you are wrong. The I AM A PERSON poster most assuredly stops abortion whether it is acompanied by the gospel or not. I have seen total secularist use it with success. Then we should do away with all prisons if we can't stop folk from doing evil, RIGHT? What ya say oh great wise one? SSSSSSOOOOO now we need to just bow down to a confessed baby killer, who claims to have found God? And just which form of the gospel are you talking about? Penacostalism, calvanism, catholosism? SSSSSOOOOO lets just smear religious prejudice all over the issue while the babies die. GREAT PLAN!!

reply from: faithman

What ya say oh great wise one? SSSSSSOOOOO now we need to just bow down to a confessed baby killer, who claims to have found God? And just which form of the gospel are you talking about? Penacostalism, calvanism, catholosism? SSSSSOOOOO lets just smear religious prejudice all over the issue while the babies die. GREAT PLAN!!

reply from: yoda

Ah, so you are saying that all my efforts will fail because I'm not a member of your religion? Okay....... thanks!

reply from: carolemarie

I think nothing will work with out God. That is my opinion and you don't have to share it and obviously don't. But that is how I see it and why I do things the way I do them. (You know, it isn't that unreasonable of a position for a Christian to think God is the one who has the power to end abortion and trust that He will do that.)
Question, do you think I should stop trying to change hearts and minds at the clinic because I believe God has the power to end it not me? That only those who think they can end abortion in their own power should go out to the clinics?
Don't put words in my mouth and I won't do that to you.

reply from: pookiy1980

Faithman do you remember saying this about Neal Horsley???
"He admitted he was wrong & that he sinned thus, he was forgiven. The same applies to abortion. If the women who've had abs can admit to murder & deserving of punishment in their hearts & swear to Never have another than, they should have forgiveness. I'm not sure if that's in any particular religion it's just something I've come to believe in that I've heard somewhere."
So how come you don't call him a baby killer or animal f'r? He has also sinned and was forgiven yet you continue to call this lady, who once had an abortion and was forgiven names. I don't get it???
Neal is out there trying to save babies and what what I have read so is carole......
please don't be a hypocrit....
and no I am not hating on Neal just using his as an example of one who once lived in sin and has been forgiven.

reply from: faithman

Faithman do you remember saying this about Neal Horsley???
"He admitted he was wrong & that he sinned thus, he was forgiven. The same applies to abortion. If the women who've had abs can admit to murder & deserving of punishment in their hearts & swear to Never have another than, they should have forgiveness. I'm not sure if that's in any particular religion it's just something I've come to believe in that I've heard somewhere."
So how come you don't call him a baby killer or animal f'r? He has also sinned and was forgiven yet you continue to call this lady, who once had an abortion and was forgiven names. I don't get it???
Neal is out there trying to save babies and what what I have read so is carole......
please don't be a hypocrit....
and no I am not hating on Neal just using his as an example of one who once lived in sin and has been forgiven.
I don't think that is my quote. But the issue with "this lady" is that she thinks because she has killed a few, she understands things more than anybody else. This ain't about post abortive needs. This is about stopping the slaughter of womb children.

reply from: pookiy1980

Sorry It was one you replyed to: (I guess the quote did not work on your response made it seem that way)
I feel it is not up to us to forgive others for their sins but Gods.
I agree we need to stop the abortion....only people who have actually had an abortion can tell others about the emotion/regret/exc. and if explaining these emotions to women concidering abortion stops them, then that is one more life saved. Point blank the abortion is wrong. PL'rs use emotion/feeling in much of what's being preached, I can not tell another woman the emptyness she would feel after abortion but someone who has had one can.
Everyone PL has different ways of doing this and the end result remains the same as saving babies.

reply from: faithman

Sorry It was one you replyed to: (I guess the quote did not work on your response made it seem that way)
I feel it is not up to us to forgive others for their sins but Gods.
I agree we need to stop the abortion....only people who have actually had an abortion can tell others about the emotion/regret/exc. and if explaining these emotions to women concidering abortion stops them, then that is one more life saved. Point blank the abortion is wrong. PL'rs use emotion/feeling in much of what's being preached, I can not tell another woman the emptyness she would feel after abortion but someone who has had one can.
Everyone PL has different ways of doing this and the end result remains the same as saving babies.
As long as the issue stays focussed on the womb child.The problem with some is that they usurp the focus with their side issue agendas.

reply from: yoda

But what does that mean? How does that relate in any way to whether or not a prolifer is Christian?
I think EVERYONE should try to stop abortion....... I am not the one trying to exclude people.

reply from: BKennedy4Life

I'm a little late to the party, but basically I'm mixed on this.
This is one of those things where I wonder if the lives we save are worth the cannon fodder this tactic lends to the pro-aborts. If they gain the upper hand over us and can open another clinic, in the grand scope we've actually caused more deaths.
If this is some sort of hidden camera type thing I'm opposed to it, especially with the hitlist that came along with it. That kind of crap is creepy and serves no purpose other than to undermine the movement in the long run.

reply from: yoda

I can't speak for anyone else, but there's nothing "hidden" about my camera. It's sitting on a tripod right out in plain sight.... in fact that's the whole idea. Just putting the idea of "being photographed in the act" into the heads of the women heading into the slaughter house is the main idea, anyway.
And I'm certainly not "hidden", I'm much too large to hide. But by all means feel free to express your opinion on this on any other matter.... not that it will change my mind, or anyone else's. I've yet to hear any valid objection to photography at the clinics, but maybe someone will surprise me some day.
[edited to add: I don't consider someone saying "it's creepy" to be valid objection]

reply from: faithman

Undermine what movement? You mean the bowel movement that passes it self off as pro-life? It does a real good job on its own. The hit list did more to save babies than all the OSA bafoonery media events put together. Any so called movement that has been so ineffective after 35 years should be undermined. I can't believe that there is someone so stupid to believe the myths in your post. I could care less what a pro-abort thinks or does. So what they think is more important than saving a babies life? Not only do you care about pro-abort speach, but you have cared so much you have become one.

reply from: BKennedy4Life

Undermine what movement? You mean the bowel movement that passes it self off as pro-life? It does a real good job on its own. The hit list did more to save babies than all the OSA bafoonery media events put together. Any so called movement that has been so ineffective after 35 years should be undermined. I can't believe that there is someone so stupid to believe the myths in your post. I could care less what a pro-abort thinks or does. So what they think is more important than saving a babies life? Not only do you care about pro-abort speach, but you have cared so much you have become one.
See, that's the kind of stupid crap that turns people off. Maybe you haven't noticed, but the pro-aborts have a whole hell of a lot more media allies than we do. A hit list is cannon fodder not because it pisses pro-aborts off, but because it makes a good "hey look, those pro-lifers really are crazy whackjobs" story in the news. That fits into the MSM's byline.
Whereas yodavader kindly explained this is a big freakin' camera on a tripod, any objection I had wilts away. My issue with secret, hidden cameras is first and foremost the dubious legality of using them for such purposes, and second the utter, unknown invasion of privacy it represents. If some weirdo is following you around with a hidden camera and putting your name on a hitlist for their particular agenda, chances are you won't like it, even if you're pureman mcholyshorts.
Finally, don't snap at me. I don't appreciate that kind of knee-jerk response, especially considering I'm on your side. Just because I don't jump on to support every single tactic that could theoretically be employed to curtail abortion does not mean I am any less commited than you are. I view hitlists, extortion, and voyueristic activity as beyond the line you don't cross. It's in the same territory as clinic bombing and assasination of pro-choice leaders as far as I'm concerned.
I'd also like to see the proof of the efficacy of this blacklisting tactic. Sure, it might give a few a jump for joy to know some abortionist somewhere has strikeout HTML on his name. As for me, I want to see hard numbers. Did the tactic actually reduce abortions in the aggregate, or just embarrass a few random people and in general make it all the easier for the pro-aborts and their media goons to paint us as extremists?

reply from: Shiprahagain

pureman mcholyshorts - LOL

reply from: faithman

Undermine what movement? You mean the bowel movement that passes it self off as pro-life? It does a real good job on its own. The hit list did more to save babies than all the OSA bafoonery media events put together. Any so called movement that has been so ineffective after 35 years should be undermined. I can't believe that there is someone so stupid to believe the myths in your post. I could care less what a pro-abort thinks or does. So what they think is more important than saving a babies life? Not only do you care about pro-abort speach, but you have cared so much you have become one.
See, that's the kind of stupid crap that turns people off. Maybe you haven't noticed, but the pro-aborts have a whole hell of a lot more media allies than we do. A hit list is cannon fodder not because it pisses pro-aborts off, but because it makes a good "hey look, those pro-lifers really are crazy whackjobs" story in the news. That fits into the MSM's byline.
Whereas yodavader kindly explained this is a big freakin' camera on a tripod, any objection I had wilts away. My issue with secret, hidden cameras is first and foremost the dubious legality of using them for such purposes, and second the utter, unknown invasion of privacy it represents. If some weirdo is following you around with a hidden camera and putting your name on a hitlist for their particular agenda, chances are you won't like it, even if you're pureman mcholyshorts.
Finally, don't snap at me. I don't appreciate that kind of knee-jerk response, especially considering I'm on your side. Just because I don't jump on to support every single tactic that could theoretically be employed to curtail abortion does not mean I am any less commited than you are. I view hitlists, extortion, and voyueristic activity as beyond the line you don't cross. It's in the same territory as clinic bombing and assasination of pro-choice leaders as far as I'm concerned.
I'd also like to see the proof of the efficacy of this blacklisting tactic. Sure, it might give a few a jump for joy to know some abortionist somewhere has strikeout HTML on his name. As for me, I want to see hard numbers. Did the tactic actually reduce abortions in the aggregate, or just embarrass a few random people and in general make it all the easier for the pro-aborts and their media goons to paint us as extremists?
There is no law against taking pictures of people in public any where , so just shut that lie up will ya. The fact of the matter is that extremist is a good thing. the bigger stink you make at all planned parenthood clinics and events, the more controversy is tagged with them. The harder it is for them to find rental space, the higher their insurance is, and the harder it is for them to recruit doctors. We should praise our extremist, and thank God for the sacrifices they made, as they have made it much harder for the abortion industry to recruit medical staff for the clinics. It is attitudes like yours who care what the media says, or what the pro-aborts think, that keep abortion legal. You have already said you care more about what the borts think, than saving babies.

reply from: faithman

.....and I don't remember having to tip toe around your sensitive feelings. My knees jerk at stupid everytime. What you post here is stupid, and means death to the womb child. Don't like it tough.

reply from: BKennedy4Life

Alrighty then, I won't feel the need to spare yours.
This brand of extremism cuts the line very close. There's a certain limit to where extremism should take you. A case in point is the clinic bombings that went on. They were few in number, but it only takes one to make a media circus. What happened after? They built another clinic. Congrats, we caused a bunch of property damage, utterly destroyed any positive PR we had with regular people, and in the end only temporarily stopped abortion in that area. All thanks to extremism gone too far.
Don't be an idiot. Maybe your buddies at Operation Rescue have the massive bankroll and grassroots support to be indifferent to public opinion, but guess what? Not everyone has that luxury! Some local Crisis Pregnancy Centers are struggling just to take care of the clients coming in. They can't go on a bloody blackmail and extortion campaign like Operation Rescue can. They have more important things to do, like help people instead of make life difficult for pro-aborts, hardening the soulless like Tiller and causing personal destruction for less agenda driven employees.
My philosophy says it is more productive to show the pro-life movement as one committed to helping women and families in need, not extorting and blackmailing clinic workers. I don't mind peaceful protests, there is certainly room for front line persuasion. I don't think blackmail and extortion is part of it. Maybe that's too soft for jackbooted faithman.
Go ahead, mentally masturbate to names crossed out on blacklists. Good job, mate, you've harrassed clinic workers and/or regular women to tears and temporarily left a job vacancy at a clinic. Meanwhile the abortion industry continues to be a multi-million dollar death machine.
Blackmail and extortion only hack at trees. The only way to destroy the forest of abortion is to take the high road, win popular support, and make abortion unneccesary through helping people, not extorting assumed political enemies.
Riddle me this faithman: Would it be better to convert a clinic worker to pro-life by making them understand the pro-life position and show them we are truly committed to making the lives of the living, born AND unborn better, or would it be better to extort that woman, destroy her life, harden her heart, and in general give yet more fodder to the pro-aborts.
My knees jerk at stupid too. Your methods are shortsighted, quick-fix solutions that can easily turn against the entire pro-life movement. I support protests, I support open, public filming of entrances and exits to abortion clinics. I don't support posting up people's names and addresses and creating public blacklists. I don't support destroying lives in the name of saving them. The ends justify the means is the mantra of the pro-aborts. I'd like to think we have higher standards.

reply from: faithman

Alrighty then, I won't feel the need to spare yours.
This brand of extremism cuts the line very close. There's a certain limit to where extremism should take you. A case in point is the clinic bombings that went on. They were few in number, but it only takes one to make a media circus. What happened after? They built another clinic. Congrats, we caused a bunch of property damage, utterly destroyed any positive PR we had with regular people, and in the end only temporarily stopped abortion in that area. All thanks to extremism gone too far.
Don't be an idiot. Maybe your buddies at Operation Rescue have the massive bankroll and grassroots support to be indifferent to public opinion, but guess what? Not everyone has that luxury! Some local Crisis Pregnancy Centers are struggling just to take care of the clients coming in. They can't go on a bloody blackmail and extortion campaign like Operation Rescue can. They have more important things to do, like help people instead of make life difficult for pro-aborts, hardening the soulless like Tiller and causing personal destruction for less agenda driven employees.
My philosophy says it is more productive to show the pro-life movement as one committed to helping women and families in need, not extorting and blackmailing clinic workers. I don't mind peaceful protests, there is certainly room for front line persuasion. I don't think blackmail and extortion is part of it. Maybe that's too soft for jackbooted faithman.
Go ahead, mentally masturbate to names crossed out on blacklists. Good job, mate, you've harrassed clinic workers and/or regular women to tears and temporarily left a job vacancy at a clinic. Meanwhile the abortion industry continues to be a multi-million dollar death machine.
Blackmail and extortion only hack at trees. The only way to destroy the forest of abortion is to take the high road, win popular support, and make abortion unneccesary through helping people, not extorting assumed political enemies.
Riddle me this faithman: Would it be better to convert a clinic worker to pro-life by making them understand the pro-life position and show them we are truly committed to making the lives of the living, born AND unborn better, or would it be better to extort that woman, destroy her life, harden her heart, and in general give yet more fodder to the pro-aborts.
My knees jerk at stupid too. Your methods are shortsighted, quick-fix solutions that can easily turn against the entire pro-life movement. I support protests, I support open, public filming of entrances and exits to abortion clinics. I don't support posting up people's names and addresses and creating public blacklists. I don't support destroying lives in the name of saving them. The ends justify the means is the mantra of the pro-aborts. I'd like to think we have higher standards.
The bombings put those clinics out of business, and discouraged many from becoming abortionist. If this were a righteous country, every clinic in america would burn down this night. I think clinics burning are a good thing.You believe it is more important to look good loseing, than to actually save babies. I could care less what a murderous skank thinks. As long as we care more about bort head opinions, the babies die. The so called pro-life movement is a sham, and a way for folk to make money. So I could really care less what people thought about a so called movement with punks like benham at the helm.

reply from: yoda

That's quite a mouthful. I suppose it's true that OR is somewhat "indifferent" to public opinion, but then I think that's a good thing! Public opinion in this country is what keeps proabort politicians in office. But I think you're slandering them with words like "blackmail and extortion", because those things involve taking money from "victims", and OR certainly does not seek to take any money from Killer Tiller's henchmen. If you are referring to their tactics of publicly exposing their status as employees of Tiller, that is not blackmail OR extortion. There is no need to provide the baby killers with more ammunition by making false accusations.
Many Crisis Pregnancy Centers perform valuable services, but guess what? They are not perfect, and they are not the "perfect answer" to the problem of abortion. Where I live, they are over-funded for the small number of clients they serve, they have a beautiful big building right next to the abortion clinic, and they sometimes refer their clients to the abortion clinic. And they have made it clear that they disapprove of us "street people carrying signs", claiming that we "may be hurting their business also". So much for their "more important things to do".


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