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The problem with the Pro-Life movement

by: carolemarie

I think the reason we still have abortion 33 years later, is that God is trying to teach us something.
For 33 years we have been looking at abortion through eyes of flesh rather than eyes of faith. With eyes of flesh, it seems like the problem is that a baby is being killed.
But with eyes of faith, it is the soul of the woman who chooses abortion that is the issue with God. Jesus loves her, no matter if it is one abortion or thirty! He is trying to reach her heart.
It is the kindness of God that leads to repentance, not yelling or shoving graphic signs in her face. We need to examine our hearts. If we are "all about the baby", we are missing God's heart.
Blessings,
Carole

reply from: AshMarie88

No offense, really, but not all pro-lifers believe in God.
And to be honest, I don't know if I understood the point you were trying to make. Are you saying it's wrong to defend children?

reply from: carolemarie

I don't think it is wrong to defend children.
I think that in general prolifers have a crummy attitude toward those who choose abortion. It shows in the way they talk to women who are seeking abortion and that we focus totally on the baby.
You can't save the baby if you can't reach the women.
And I think most people who are pro-life believe in God. There is no real reason to oppose abortion if you don't think there is a God. What difference would it make?

reply from: faithman

Yes and no. When it comes right down to it, it is totally about justice for the Baby. You can not exstend mercy until justice has been established. If a womb child is a person, then to kill them without cause is murder. If abortion is murder, then it should be treated as such. The same penalty should be doled out for the murder of the pre-born as it is for the born. If what you are saying is true, then the women who killed their born children should be let out of prison. If a woman is truely repentant and sorry for having killed a child, I am all for mercy. But just what would happen to the mother who killed a born child even if she was totally sorry? Do you think the court would let her just walk away free? If you do not keep it about justice for the baby, then we agree with planned parenthood that the only one who deserves consideration is killer mom, and the womb child is a second class citizen. The best way to pre-empt abortion is the fiber optic photos, and ultra sound imagery. We must connect America emotionally to the humanity of the pre-born child. Then demand justice, and the basic human right to life for their personhood. You don't do that by giving killer skanks all the attention. Show the picture of children in the womb, and only the most heartless would continue to promote their destruction. But if the deside to kill a child anyway, then they deserve the same punishment as Ted Bundy.

reply from: AshMarie88

Well, considering you should help defend children and debate from a non-religious aspect, I'd say it'd make a HUGE difference.
Bringing up God, even tho I believe in him, will not help. Bringing up God, instead of bringing up biology and fetal development, might not be as effective.
It doesn't matter if "most" pro-lifers are religious or not. What matters is we're all in the same movement and trying to accomplish the same goal: To save babies.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Hmm. I agree with some of what you say, but I think prolifers really do reach out women -- that's why we have postabortion care, crisis pregnancy centers, and other women-focused resources for during pregnancy, and even after birth or abortion when there's no baby left to save. During slavery, there was an argument that slavery was wrong b/c it corrupted white people. William Lloyd Garrison (who was white) said that slavery did indeed corrupt white people but the main problem was that it brutalized blacks. Abortion does harm women but the main problem is that it kills babies.
As for God, I'm Christian, but I've even heard atheist prolife beliefs -- they say if this life is all we have we have no right to deny it to others. I notice you want us to be very gentle with women even when they are wrong - why not extend that gentleness to people who have different beliefs even when we feel those beliefs are wrong?

reply from: faithman

Yes and no. When it comes right down to it, it is totally about justice for the Baby. You can not exstend mercy until justice has been established. If a womb child is a person, then to kill them without cause is murder. If abortion is murder, then it should be treated as such. The same penalty should be doled out for the murder of the pre-born as it is for the born. If what you are saying is true, then the women who killed their born children should be let out of prison. If a woman is truely repentant and sorry for having killed a child, I am all for mercy. But just what would happen to the mother who killed a born child even if she was totally sorry? Do you think the court would let her just walk away free? If you do not keep it about justice for the baby, then we agree with planned parenthood that the only one who deserves consideration is killer mom, and the womb child is a second class citizen. The best way to pre-empt abortion is the fiber optic photos, and ultra sound imagery. We must connect America emotionally to the humanity of the pre-born child. Then demand justice, and the basic human right to life for their personhood. You don't do that by giving killer skanks all the attention. Show the picture of children in the womb, and only the most heartless would continue to promote their destruction. But if the deside to kill a child anyway, then they deserve the same punishment as Ted Bundy.

reply from: Teresa18

Most pro-lifers I have met truly care about both persons. The attitude is really one of sandess and frustration at times because we recognize that the unborn child is a person deserving of protection, and it breaks our hearts to see a woman walk into a clinic to kill him/her. That person is a unique person growning and developing that, once killed, the world can never ever have back. We love and care about the woman, though. There are two people in abortion. We care about both. Those that are pro-choice have no regard for the child within the womb. They only care about the woman. Pro-lifers try to care for both through CPCs which help women through pregnancies and beyond or with finding a good adoption agency. If we didn't care about women, we wouldn't support abortion in such cases where the mother's life is in jeopardy. The difference, we don't support deliberately killing the child immediately. We support the doctors trying to save both parties, and if the child dies, that is sad, but it is necessary.
Not all pro-lifers believe in God. Yoda is one of the most pro-life people I have ever met, and he is agnostic. I believe Concerned Parent also doesn't believe in God. He is pro-life. There are some pro-life atheists on another board I post on. I usually never argue abortion from a religious stand point because not everyone is religious. I argue it from a biological stand point.

reply from: Shiprahagain

I agree with everything you said except for the claim that abortion involves two people. Abortion involves many more than that. It involves fathers, many of whom, like Yoda, had their children murdered against their wills, it involves sibling and grandparents sometimes. It involves, in a more abstract sense, all the lives the child would have touched and even the children they would have ahd. But even in a direct sense, I think it's wrong to count out the father of the child.

reply from: prolifejedi

unfortunately, many religious who use the bible to defend life are dismissed as religious wackos with no credibility.

reply from: faithman

The whole agenda of secular humanism, is to destroy the christian faith, and wipe the church from the face of the earth. All you have to do is read the humanist manifesto. You might also check out the list of who has won the Humanist Of The Year award. Planned Parenthood is represented very heavily. I believe that the 1st amendment assures the expression of ones faith in the public square. The only problem is when we exclude, or minimalize others from the fight for the womb child because we may see things differently as far as the way we carry out our duty towards God. The primarily Calvanist forfathers, came from europe to escape state ran religious institutions, that forbade them from worshipping God as they saw fit. They recognized that if they wanted religious freedom, they would have to extend it to the next guy, and respect his right even if he did not agree with the doctrine of their faith. The idea behind the 1st amendment, is freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. This is the huge difference between Troy Newman, and Flip Benham. Troy, as a calvanist, respects others efforts to save the womb child, even though he may not agree with them. Benham, as a dominionalist, believes that his brand of christianity must defeat all world governments for Christ before He can come back. If Benham had his way, we would be plunged into another dark ages, where every one who didn't believe the way he does would stand a pretty good chance of being killed. His "faith" justifies his self emposed authority over all things Pro-life. The major reason he has activly trashed Troy Newman, is because he feels that Troy has not bowed down far enough at the OSA thrown. On the contrary, Troy has refused to get caught up in this stuff, and has continuosly wished and prayed for the best for OSA and their efforts to stop abortion. It is a little frustrating sometimes, because Troy has remained silent about issues, and simply tries to rise above it. That is what he believes his faith requires of him. He is willing to let his actions speak for him. If you look at his back trail, you will see several closed clinics, abortionist behind bars, local groups blessed with the assets under Troys stewardship, and the grace and truth of the Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed by his words and his witness. Flip Benham sees himself as the pro-life pope. In his own eyes, he is the final authority over all things pro-life. He and his henchman, are the self proclaimed end time voice of God on the earth, and every word out of their mouth is "doth sayist the Lord". If you don't bow down to their Lordship, then they will most assuredly punk you. OSA is an authoritarian personality cult, and has done great harm to the pro-life movement in general. Troy Newman has proven over and over again to be a servant to all.

reply from: yoda

That's just a matter of picking the right audience. The babykillers call me similar names also, and I'm not religious at all. As long as a person knows they are speaking to a mostly Christian audience, the use of scriptures is totally appropriate. Otherwise, it is better to use plain old common sense morality.

reply from: JaysonsMom

Well said, Carole. I agree, people tend to focus solely on the baby, which is understandable. But my faith tells me that the baby is with God, it's the woman who needs to be focused upon. Good post!
Amy

reply from: faithman

Yes and no. When it comes right down to it, it is totally about justice for the Baby. You can not exstend mercy until justice has been established. If a womb child is a person, then to kill them without cause is murder. If abortion is murder, then it should be treated as such. The same penalty should be doled out for the murder of the pre-born as it is for the born. If what you are saying is true, then the women who killed their born children should be let out of prison. If a woman is truely repentant and sorry for having killed a child, I am all for mercy. But just what would happen to the mother who killed a born child even if she was totally sorry? Do you think the court would let her just walk away free? If you do not keep it about justice for the baby, then we agree with planned parenthood that the only one who deserves consideration is killer mom, and the womb child is a second class citizen. The best way to pre-empt abortion is the fiber optic photos, and ultra sound imagery. We must connect America emotionally to the humanity of the pre-born child. Then demand justice, and the basic human right to life for their personhood. You don't do that by giving killer skanks all the attention. Show the picture of children in the womb, and only the most heartless would continue to promote their destruction. But if the deside to kill a child anyway, then they deserve the same punishment as Ted Bundy.

reply from: yoda

Interesting perspective. Here's another scenario: suppose a lazy mother decides she's got too many born kids, and throws a couple in the river. Well, those two were very young, so they're probably with God, right? So it's the woman who now needs to be "focused upon", right?

reply from: faithman

Interesting perspective. Here's another scenario: suppose a lazy mother decides she's got too many born kids, and throws a couple in the river. Well, those two were very young, so they're probably with God, right? So it's the woman who now needs to be "focused upon", right?
You heartless cruel person. Don't you understand how upset these women are for murdering their children? Lets buy some girl scout cookies, and have an afternoon tea for them so they can discuss their feelings. Maybe they could discuss Opra's latest book afterwards, then watch reruns of the View. You know Rosie has a ballanced opinion on this issue.

reply from: carolemarie

This is what I mean by what is wrong with the pro-lifers.
Since abortion is legal, it is not the same thing as throwing your two little children into the river and drowning them! To even compare them is insulting and silly. They are not the same. One takes malice and the other doesn't.
Nobody has an abortion out of malice. Women don't wake up one morning and say, "Hmmm, I feel like being evil, I guess I will have an abortion!"
Women have abortions because their lives are a mess and they can't find a way out that they can live with. They feel overwhelmed, unprepared, scared, stressed, too young, too poor...the list goes on and on.
It suprises me that those who are so vicious in the condemnation of those who choose to abort are the Christians! Christians are the ones who are suppose to understand forgiveness and sin. This is why I think God doesn't let abortion end. We don't rightly represent Him to a lost world. And we harbor unforgiveness and hate in our own hearts toward those who abort and our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Newsflash!! God loves abortion providers, women who get abortions, porn starts, prostitutes, secretaries and pastors. He wants to SAVE and LOVE all of us. He wants a relationship with us.
That is the gospel message---There is a God who died to love us!
The kindness of God leads to repentance!
I (God) desire mercy not sacrifice!
That is why abortion is about more than a baby.
As for atheist being pro-life, more power to them! But what makes their morality superior to someone who thinks that it is abortion is permissible? It just boils down to an opinion. God is the only reason that abortion is wrong. Because He says it is! No other reason.
Blessings to all of you,
Carole
www.choices4women.org

reply from: faithman

Now you falsly accuse those who demand justice for the womb child haters. You do the pro-aborts work for them.

reply from: JaysonsMom

I have to agree with Carole that the two situations aren't the same. And for the record, if a woman did hand-select a child or two to toss in the river, yes, the focus should be on her and a very long prison sentence.
Thanks Carole, and I agree with everything you said. God does love everyone, including all of those you mentioned and it is unconditional love. He knows that we screw up and make horrible mistakes, but if we sincerely repent, He will forgive us.
I don't understand why it's all right to focus solely on the aborted child, but when you turn a compassionate, christian eye to the woman, it's wrong.
Amy

reply from: faithman

I have to agree with Carole that the two situations aren't the same. And for the record, if a woman did hand-select a child or two to toss in the river, yes, the focus should be on her and a very long prison sentence.
Thanks Carole, and I agree with everything you said. God does love everyone, including all of those you mentioned and it is unconditional love. He knows that we screw up and make horrible mistakes, but if we sincerely repent, He will forgive us.
I don't understand why it's all right to focus solely on the aborted child, but when you turn a compassionate, christian eye to the woman, it's wrong.
Amy
I did not say it was wrong to show compassion. It is wrong to aply it at the exspence of justice for the innocent. You are biblicly wrong to say God's love is unconditional. There is absolutely no scripture to back that false touchy feel good sentiment up. God's love is the most conditional love there is. You must be born again or the wrath of God abides on the children of disobediance. Do not confuse unmerited with unconditional. No wonder your logic is screwed up, your theology is too.

reply from: carolemarie

Being pro-life is not about being angry or disliking those who are lost in darkness. We should be reflecting the heart of God which is full of compassion.
You really need to ask God to give you a heart that is just as soft to those who choose abortion and those who provide and support abortion as you are for the babies who die. They can only lose their physical lives, but those involved can end up losing their eternal life.
Jesus didn't come to end abortion. He came to seek those who were lost and told us to do the same. Our job description hasn't changed...
We need to care as much, if not more, for the souls of the people at the abortion clinic as we do the physical life of the baby.
I understand that it is easy to get frustrated and angry at those who seeminly so flippantly march into abortion clinics. But we don't know what is really going on inside her heart. Being mean never caused anyone to change their mind. But kindness has. Even after the abortion, our actions can help that same woman find Jesus and help her come to repent and change her mind.
It is a great responsibility to represent Jesus at an abortion clinic. I would caution you to pray and ask Him if perhaps you are over identified with the baby. Jesus is the advocate for the women we treat meanly as well as that baby.
Blessings,
Carole

reply from: Shiprahagain

Interesting perspective. Here's another scenario: suppose a lazy mother decides she's got too many born kids, and throws a couple in the river. Well, those two were very young, so they're probably with God, right? So it's the woman who now needs to be "focused upon", right?
You heartless cruel person. Don't you understand how upset these women are for murdering their children? Lets buy some girl scout cookies, and have an afternoon tea for them so they can discuss their feelings. Maybe they could discuss Opra's latest book afterwards, then watch reruns of the View. You know Rosie has a ballanced opinion on this issue.
That gave me a nice guilty laugh.
Jayson's mom, God loves everyone but that doesn't mean certain BEHAVIORS can't be codemned. Abortion is just like killing a born child - the age of the child or the legality doesn't make a difference. Malice is deliberate killing an evil human being. There was a time when (pretty much until the 70's) when you could lynch blacks and get away with it legally. Did it take malice to do that when it was illegal but no malice when it wasn't? When it was legal did it take malice to kill a white person and none to kill a black? The woman in Yoda's example was probably overwhelmed, poor, etc. too. so are most wife beaters, drug dealers, and gang members -- so why make special allowance for moms who abort? Or, to give you an example that's closer to home, since God loves the terrorists, and they're desperate and poor and overwhelmed, is terrorism without malice and do we need to focus on terrorists and not victims?

reply from: faithman

Interesting perspective. Here's another scenario: suppose a lazy mother decides she's got too many born kids, and throws a couple in the river. Well, those two were very young, so they're probably with God, right? So it's the woman who now needs to be "focused upon", right?
You heartless cruel person. Don't you understand how upset these women are for murdering their children? Lets buy some girl scout cookies, and have an afternoon tea for them so they can discuss their feelings. Maybe they could discuss Opra's latest book afterwards, then watch reruns of the View. You know Rosie has a ballanced opinion on this issue.
That gave me a nice guilty laugh.
Jayson's mom, God loves everyone but that doesn't mean certain BEHAVIORS can't be codemned. Abortion is just like killing a born child - the age of the child or the legality doesn't make a difference. Malice is deliberate killing an evil human being. There was a time when (pretty much until the 70's) when you could lynch blacks and get away with it legally. Did it take malice to do that when it was illegal but no malice when it wasn't? When it was legal did it take malice to kill a white person and none to kill a black? The woman in Yoda's example was probably overwhelmed, poor, etc. too. so are most wife beaters, drug dealers, and gang members -- so why make special allowance for moms who abort? Or, to give you an example that's closer to home, since God loves the terrorists, and they're desperate and poor and overwhelmed, is terrorism without malice and do we need to focus on terrorists and not victims?
You can condemn abortion without ever mentioning any names, and still make every point you wish to make. When you attack post-abortive women, you're not so much condemning "the act" as the person who committed it. Calling them foul names like "skank" are personal condemnations, not condemnations of abortion. I think this is what J's mom is trying to say, and if so, I agree with her. I feel we have nothing to gain by trading insults, and that it is actually counterproductive. I have come to expect it from pro-aborts, but if they lose credibility for their side, that could be good for ours. On the other hand, I hate to see pro-lifers making our side look bad by reciprocating... I realize I'm not always the perfect example of proper etiquette and polite discourse either, but at least I realize there is a right way and a wrong way to go about this, and I certainly make a conscious effort to exercise some self control for the sake of the cause.
If I said everything that I wanted to say without considering the big picture, I might be doing more harm than good on this forum. There have been times, especially when those who are "on my side" express their contempt for me, when I wonder if that might not be the case even despite my best efforts to bite my tongue when the cause would not be best served by my sharing exactly what I'm thinking. On the other hand, I am certainly not going to allow any forum tyrants to dictate what views I will or will not share. I refuse to be intimidated into silence, and I'm no "yes man" for any person or group. If I say something that is not popular among pro-lifers, it's usually because I decided it needed to be said, regardless of who likes it or not, but I really do try not to make it personal, and certainly see the wisdom in refraining from personal attacks, even if I do strike back sometimes against my better judgment...
Yada yada yada bla bla bla. When a woman acts in an immoral way, the term skank is acurate. Abortion on demand is an act to relieve skanks from the resposiblity of a child. Who is the forum tyrant? no one is stopping you from flinging your monky dung all over this forum. And another thing baboon brains, your questions have been answered. If Troy has done anything wrong, why hasn't there been any charges filed? The aligations brought against him come from sold out proabort exstremist. The only problem was a slogan that the irs called too political which is why the 501 c3 was revoked. They are in process of refiling. So he is guilty until proven innocent on the word of pro-abort exstremist? Have you called Troy and spoken to him in person? Or have you simply took up the offence of maggot punks because as a secular humanist you hate Christians?

reply from: JaysonsMom

I agree with you that certain behaviors can and should be condemned. Faithman seems to think that I believe that women who have abortions should be treated specially, their crime ignored. Never in any of my posts have I said that. I said that it isn't for me to judge and God says we should be kind to others. Do unto others... and so forth. That's what I have done and will continue to do. Being compassionate toward a woman who aborted her child doesn't mean I condone the abortion.
I also agree with you about malice. If a woman goes to a clinic to have an abortion because of selfish reasons, that's malice to me. If she has one because her life is in danger, that isn't.
As far as the racist issues and so forth, I've never condoned racism or violence of any kind toward another person based on their race, financial situation, religion, etc. Murder is murder; I simply choose to follow God's word and treat everyone as He wants us to. Those women will be judged by Him, not me.

reply from: faithman

I agree with you that certain behaviors can and should be condemned. Faithman seems to think that I believe that women who have abortions should be treated specially, their crime ignored. Never in any of my posts have I said that. I said that it isn't for me to judge and God says we should be kind to others. Do unto others... and so forth. That's what I have done and will continue to do. Being compassionate toward a woman who aborted her child doesn't mean I condone the abortion.
I also agree with you about malice. If a woman goes to a clinic to have an abortion because of selfish reasons, that's malice to me. If she has one because her life is in danger, that isn't.
As far as the racist issues and so forth, I've never condoned racism or violence of any kind toward another person based on their race, financial situation, religion, etc. Murder is murder; I simply choose to follow God's word and treat everyone as He wants us to. Those women will be judged by Him, not me.
You most assuredly have heavily implied that post abortive women deserve a free walk because they are sorry. If abortion is the crime of murder, then the one who commits it should be prosicuted for it. The scripture tells us that God ordained Government to be a terror to the evil doers [Romans 13:1-4]. Our form of government is we the people are the government. It is our God ordained duty to make sure that justice is applied fairly. You have shirked your God ordained duty as a part of this government, by presenting a god fassioned by your opinion which is idolitry. God has given authority to man over the earth. He has given man the duty to deal with evil doers in a just way. Some crimes demand a judgement from God. The death penalty sends them to His thrown room for divine action. We had a man exicuted resently for assalting and killing a child, and her grandmother who was trying to protect her. He raped the child to death and drowned the grandmother in a toilet. No one should question his date with the needle, no matter how sorry he was. I hope he found God's forgiveness, because he has most assuredly met Him face to face. But I do not see this crime as more hainis than abortion. To tear little children limb from limb demands action from we the people. Other wise, for the sake of fairness, we would have to let this monster go as well because he felt remorse for raping a 6 year old to death and drowning granny in a toilet.

reply from: JaysonsMom

I never meant to imply that they deserved a free walk and if I came across that way, I apologize for not being clear. I re-read the scriptures you spoke of and am in agreement with you. But until abortion is made illegal, what can we do except for try to help women find better choices? We can't become vigilantes and serve justice ourselves so until the law decides to step up, all we can do is educate, try and convince the women that it is wrong, and be God-like in showing compassion for a fellow human being.
I don't believe anyone who has an abortion should get a free walk. Absolutely not. But I'm not sure what else you expect me to do about it. I've done my part in sending educational material to places here and in Alabama when I lived there, I have personally counselled several people who came to me in private considering an abortion and every site I'm a member of, I display pro-life graphics, quotes and I talk to anyone who wishes to about the topic.
What else should I do?
Amy

reply from: faithman

I never meant to imply that they deserved a free walk and if I came across that way, I apologize for not being clear. I re-read the scriptures you spoke of and am in agreement with you. But until abortion is made illegal, what can we do except for try to help women find better choices? We can't become vigilantes and serve justice ourselves so until the law decides to step up, all we can do is educate, try and convince the women that it is wrong, and be God-like in showing compassion for a fellow human being.
I don't believe anyone who has an abortion should get a free walk. Absolutely not. But I'm not sure what else you expect me to do about it. I've done my part in sending educational material to places here and in Alabama when I lived there, I have personally counselled several people who came to me in private considering an abortion and every site I'm a member of, I display pro-life graphics, quotes and I talk to anyone who wishes to about the topic.
What else should I do?
Amy
Your post just made America an illegitimate country, for men did rise up and put an end to tierany, which was against the law of the brittish crown. One thing you most assuredly can do, is stick to what God has called you to. Long term, it is about education. And the most powerful tools we have right now for that side of things, is the 4d ultra sound, and the fiber optic photos. We must reconect America with our common humanity with the pre-born child. I believe in that reguard, the bloody pictures have done more harm than good. Those images should be reserved for the most hard core of pro-aborts, and displayed only after people have been exposed to the live pictures. Likewise, the "pro-woman" mercy side of Pro-life, has done just as huge of a diservice, to justice for the slain innocents of the pre-born. Post such as yours, which only want to exstend touchy feel good, totally dishonors dead babies. You can exstend all the mercy you want, for that is obviously your calling, but you can do it without condemning those who are callled to demand justice for the dead. It is our God ordained place to pass the judgements written. When we condemn murder, it is not our judgement, but God's, and we merely repeat it. The education end of things will be nessisary way after we resolve abortion on demand. I am trying to work myself out of a job. In the mean time, keep your mouth shut about things you don't understand, and just do the best job you can. Get the fiber optic Pictures and spread them as fast and as far as you can. Instead of curseing them, you might try thanking God for the justice side, that they are doing a job you are not equipped to do. Niether are the justice crowd equipped to do your job. We should be willing to help one another in this struggle. If folk are doing what you don't understand, just shut up and do your job. Let God take care of it. If you want some very powerful live material, just PM me an e-mail address. I will also send tracts to anyone who provides me with a snail mail. I will help any pro-lifer be more effective reguardless if I totally agree with them or not. That is one lesson I learned by example of Troy Newman. That is why I am gratefully in his debt.

reply from: yoda

I don't get your attitude. Does it mean nothing at all to you that the babies are being intentionally slaughtered? Does that have no meaning at all to you?
Do you really think that the perpetrators of this violence are on the same moral level as the victims of this violence? Do you feel the same way about the victims of all violent crimes, or just about legal abortion?

reply from: yoda

There's another thing. The way you said that, makes it sound like it's about 50-50.... but it's no where near that. Only about 5% of all abortions are done for health reasons, either of the mother or the child. So basically, 95% of all abortions ARE DONE FOR SELFISH REASONS.

reply from: yoda

This is probably the most troubling thing I've read all week. This is really, really disturbing in a moral way.
Do you honestly equate morality and legality? Is that really your standard for right and wrong? If that's the way you look at the world, I'm sorry for you, and for any who depend on you.
What if it was legal to kill kids up to 5 years old? Would you then be insulted if someone compared your killing your 4 year old to someone else killing their 6 year old?
DO YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S MORALLY JUST AS WRONG TO KILL AN UNBORN BABY AS IT IS TO KILL ANYONE ELSE????

reply from: faithman

This is probably the most troubling thing I've read all week. This is really, really disturbing in a moral way.
Do you honestly equate morality and legality? Is that really your standard for right and wrong? If that's the way you look at the world, I'm sorry for you, and for any who depend on you.
What if it was legal to kill kids up to 5 years old? Would you then be insulted if someone compared your killing your 4 year old to someone else killing their 6 year old?
DO YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S MORALLY JUST AS WRONG TO KILL AN UNBORN BABY AS IT IS TO KILL ANYONE ELSE????
....and you wonder why pro-life is ineffectual in stopping the slaughter. Justice is perverted.

reply from: faithman

This is probably the most troubling thing I've read all week. This is really, really disturbing in a moral way.
Do you honestly equate morality and legality? Is that really your standard for right and wrong? If that's the way you look at the world, I'm sorry for you, and for any who depend on you.
What if it was legal to kill kids up to 5 years old? Would you then be insulted if someone compared your killing your 4 year old to someone else killing their 6 year old?
DO YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S MORALLY JUST AS WRONG TO KILL AN UNBORN BABY AS IT IS TO KILL ANYONE ELSE????
Wow! What a self righteous old coot you are! She has never even suggested that this is so! On a scale from 1 to 10, I rate your understanding at "0."
You must be that monky who has his hands over his eyes. She point blank said that killing the unborn is legal, and not morally as bad as killing the post born. If you would simple quit being blinded by your grudge against Yoda, you would have seen that.

reply from: JaysonsMom

First of all, I don't appreciate being told to shut up by someone I don't know. My family doesn't tell me to shut up, and I'm offended that you choose to speak to me in that manner.
Secondly, as I stated in my previous post, I have been trying to do the best job I can. I do NOT just extend, as you say, "touchy feel good" messages to women who have aborted their child. I keep explaining to you that I'm all for justice for the child and that I'm doing everything I can under the law. I'm distributing material, talking to people, speaking up online and promoting pro-life values.
I have been nothing but willing to help in any way I can and I don't appreciate your attitude toward me. I -am- doing my part and leaving the rest to God. Part of God's will is to treat others as you would want to be treated. I don't condone abortion and I have never claimed to wish women a free walk. I can't arrest the person myself, they can't be arrested at all, and I have sent letters and signed petitions, so I am doing my part. I never said anything about extending mercy for the woman while ignoring the plight of the aborted child. Why do you keep insinuating that I have?
I don't know how to get through to you. You seem to be attacking me with every reply to my posts. This is frustrating as I feel I AM doing what I'm supposed to do. I'm working on the fiber optic pictures and plan on distributing them.
Amy

reply from: JaysonsMom

There's another thing. The way you said that, makes it sound like it's about 50-50.... but it's no where near that. Only about 5% of all abortions are done for health reasons, either of the mother or the child. So basically, 95% of all abortions ARE DONE FOR SELFISH REASONS.
I saw those statistics and agree that most abortions are done for selfish reasons. Looks like most are done because someone just doesn't want to deal with having a child. I find that sickening. I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was 50/50.
Amy

reply from: JaysonsMom

Thank you for the insight and I can see that you're right. I've been struggling in the short time I've been a member here to get my point across without offending anyone and I feel that I've been attacked. I appreciate your post and will definately take it to heart.
Amy

reply from: Shiprahagain

There's another thing. The way you said that, makes it sound like it's about 50-50.... but it's no where near that. Only about 5% of all abortions are done for health reasons, either of the mother or the child. So basically, 95% of all abortions ARE DONE FOR SELFISH REASONS.
IT's still malice if b/c of life of the mother b/c she couldn't be bothered to do the research to find a prolife ob-gyn to try to remove the baby with an eye to save both lives. Jayson's mom, I meant my previous malice post for carolemarie not you. Sorry. So, to reiterate Carolemarie
Abortion is just like killing a born child - the age of the child or the legality doesn't make a difference. Malice is deliberate killing an evil human being. There was a time when (pretty much until the 70's) when you could lynch blacks and get away with it legally. Did it take malice to do that when it was illegal but no malice when it wasn't? When it was legal did it take malice to kill a white person and none to kill a black? The woman in Yoda's example was probably overwhelmed, poor, etc. too. so are most wife beaters, drug dealers, and gang members -- so why make special allowance for moms who abort? Or, to give you an example that's closer to home, since God loves the terrorists, and they're desperate and poor and overwhelmed, is terrorism without malice and do we need to focus on terrorists and not victims?
Concerned - I still have you on ignore, just b/c months ago I didn't want to distract the others with our fighting, but from what I see where others have quoted you it seems like you are the common denominator in arguments with a bunch of ppl. I'm keeping you on ignore, so I won't be able to see your response, but sometimes when someone has that many problems with that many people it's because of something that's going on internally with them and not due to external stimuli. So if something is up with you, please know you have my sympathy and I hope you find the help you need.

reply from: faithman

First of all, I don't appreciate being told to shut up by someone I don't know. My family doesn't tell me to shut up, and I'm offended that you choose to speak to me in that manner.
Secondly, as I stated in my previous post, I have been trying to do the best job I can. I do NOT just extend, as you say, "touchy feel good" messages to women who have aborted their child. I keep explaining to you that I'm all for justice for the child and that I'm doing everything I can under the law. I'm distributing material, talking to people, speaking up online and promoting pro-life values.
I have been nothing but willing to help in any way I can and I don't appreciate your attitude toward me. I -am- doing my part and leaving the rest to God. Part of God's will is to treat others as you would want to be treated. I don't condone abortion and I have never claimed to wish women a free walk. I can't arrest the person myself, they can't be arrested at all, and I have sent letters and signed petitions, so I am doing my part. I never said anything about extending mercy for the woman while ignoring the plight of the aborted child. Why do you keep insinuating that I have?
I don't know how to get through to you. You seem to be attacking me with every reply to my posts. This is frustrating as I feel I AM doing what I'm supposed to do. I'm working on the fiber optic pictures and plan on distributing them.
Amy
excuse me missy, but you also attacked me with the heartless, harsh and cruel comments. Don't start a fuss then cry foul when someone fusses back. You have done your fair share of attacking as well. So don't play all puffy innocent hurt feelings with me. You had no reguard for my feeling with your comments. I am not insinuating, I am point blank stateing that you have ignored justice to exstend mercy to killer mom. Your compassion should be exstended thru the bars of a prison. And until that is the situation, we must cry long and loud that justice is done for the shedding of innocent blood. SSSSSOOOOO come on back at me with some of your circular speak. You want to get away with saying things then turn around and deny you said them. I stand by what I said. It was a suggestion, though maybe a strong one, that you shut up about things you don't understand. If you want to get all hurt about it, oh well!!

reply from: JaysonsMom

That's a good point. If there was time, I would certainly hope the mother would try to find someone to save both lives. I meant if it was a life or death situation right then and there, at that moment. I would still hope that the medical staff would first try to save both mother and child.
Amy

reply from: JaysonsMom

You know what? I've finally realized that you are the only one who is right, in your eyes, and no one else can ever have a point. You show me ONE post where I said anything heartless, cruel or harsh to you. I said your way of typing sounded condescending, that's an observation and I think you KNOW that you sound that way but you don't care. I said you should discuss things wihout resorting to childish name calling. That isn't heartless, it isn't cruel, it isn't harsh. It's called suggesting that you behave like an adult.
I'm talking in a circular fashion? Okay. That's the pot calling the kettle black. In addition to doing that yourself, you also ignore the majority of what I type and look for some small thing you can twist around and attack.
I am through replying to any of your posts, for I see that it is a futile effort and a waste of my time. Enjoy the forum.
Amy

reply from: faithman

You know what? I've finally realized that you are the only one who is right, in your eyes, and no one else can ever have a point. You show me ONE post where I said anything heartless, cruel or harsh to you. I said your way of typing sounded condescending, that's an observation and I think you KNOW that you sound that way but you don't care. I said you should discuss things wihout resorting to childish name calling. That isn't heartless, it isn't cruel, it isn't harsh. It's called suggesting that you behave like an adult.
I'm talking in a circular fashion? Okay. That's the pot calling the kettle black. In addition to doing that yourself, you also ignore the majority of what I type and look for some small thing you can twist around and attack.
I am through replying to any of your posts, for I see that it is a futile effort and a waste of my time. Enjoy the forum.
Amy
Are you really that forgetfull. I didn't say you did, I said you accused me of being heartles harsh and cruel. Don't misrepresent what I posted.

reply from: YesYouNeedJesus

If you're saying God is keeping abortion legal, that's sick and wrong.
That is the problem, that the baby is being murdered. God "hates the hands that shed innocent blood."
God cares about the murdered babies. It also grieves God every time a woman chooses to kill her baby.
Says who?
There is some merit for what you're trying to say. A pro-lifer that convinces women to keep their babies without ever mentioning God and their need of a Savior does a grave disservice to them and the pro-life movement as a whole. If this be the case, we run the risk (a very scary one!) of convincing women to keep their babies, and then those "saved" babies end up in hell one day.

reply from: pookiy1980

You know what? I've finally realized that you are the only one who is right, in your eyes, and no one else can ever have a point. You show me ONE post where I said anything heartless, cruel or harsh to you. I said your way of typing sounded condescending, that's an observation and I think you KNOW that you sound that way but you don't care. I said you should discuss things wihout resorting to childish name calling. That isn't heartless, it isn't cruel, it isn't harsh. It's called suggesting that you behave like an adult.
I'm talking in a circular fashion? Okay. That's the pot calling the kettle black. In addition to doing that yourself, you also ignore the majority of what I type and look for some small thing you can twist around and attack.
I am through replying to any of your posts, for I see that it is a futile effort and a waste of my time. Enjoy the forum.
Amy
Is it not crazy how other Pl's will try to "push" you out of the "PL circle"? You say anything that is outside of the robotic expected responce and you get chewed up by fellow Pl's.
Teaching anther Pl'r maybe from exp. (yoda...) is ok, but being outright rude???
If a fellow PL'r does not think you understand something wouldn't the correct thing to do is help them understand?? I guess those who insult people who do not understand are the same ones who do not help a kid with their math or spelling....they don't understand the work tell them they deserve to fail and to shut up all while not helping them....
BTW your myspace is cute!!

reply from: yoda

Why am I not surprised that you would agree?
I've suspected for a long time that you felt that the unborn are not the "moral equivalent" of the born, and now you have confirmed it.
Tell me, are you also "insulted" that I would compare throwing kids in the river to aborting babies? Just HOW insulted are you, CP? EH?

reply from: yoda

Okay, I'm a little edgy today with some of the stuff going on here, and I'm glad you feel that way. But we do need to be careful about how stuff looks. The bort-heads spend a lot of time trying to distract us by talking about rare medical conditions, etc., to give the impression that every pregnancy is life threatening.

reply from: faithman

You know what? I've finally realized that you are the only one who is right, in your eyes, and no one else can ever have a point. You show me ONE post where I said anything heartless, cruel or harsh to you. I said your way of typing sounded condescending, that's an observation and I think you KNOW that you sound that way but you don't care. I said you should discuss things wihout resorting to childish name calling. That isn't heartless, it isn't cruel, it isn't harsh. It's called suggesting that you behave like an adult.
I'm talking in a circular fashion? Okay. That's the pot calling the kettle black. In addition to doing that yourself, you also ignore the majority of what I type and look for some small thing you can twist around and attack.
I am through replying to any of your posts, for I see that it is a futile effort and a waste of my time. Enjoy the forum.
Amy
Is it not crazy how other Pl's will try to "push" you out of the "PL circle"? You say anything that is outside of the robotic expected responce and you get chewed up by fellow Pl's.
Teaching anther Pl'r maybe from exp. (yoda...) is ok, but being outright rude???
If a fellow PL'r does not think you understand something wouldn't the correct thing to do is help them understand?? I guess those who insult people who do not understand are the same ones who do not help a kid with their math or spelling....they don't understand the work tell them they deserve to fail and to shut up all while not helping them....
BTW your myspace is cute!!
I have openly offered to all commers to suply them free of charges with e-mails and materials. To imply that I di not help others is false. This has not been one sided. I have been accused of being heartless harsh and uncaring. That simply isn't true. I have not tried to push anybody out, and have offered my help even if I do not agree with you. I have tried to exspiain the differences and help folk to understand. You just don't accept that then make false accusations.

reply from: yoda

No, that's NOT what she said...... THIS is what she said: "Originally posted by: carolemarie This is what I mean by what is wrong with the pro-lifers. Since abortion is legal, it is not the same thing as throwing your two little children into the river and drowning them! To even compare them is insulting and silly. They are not the same. One takes malice and the other doesn't." (emphasis added)
DID YOU NOTICE THE WORD "MALICE" IN THAT LAST SENTENCE, EINSTEIN???? OR IS YOUR EYESIGHT FAILING YOU???????????????????????????????

reply from: pookiy1980

If you're saying God is keeping abortion legal, that's sick and wrong.
That is the problem, that the baby is being murdered. God "hates the hands that shed innocent blood."
God cares about the murdered babies. It also grieves God every time a woman chooses to kill her baby.
Says who?
There is some merit for what you're trying to say. A pro-lifer that convinces women to keep their babies without ever mentioning God and their need of a Savior does a grave disservice to them and the pro-life movement as a whole. If this be the case, we run the risk (a very scary one!) of convincing women to keep their babies, and then those "saved" babies end up in hell one day.
Actually I think someone (counseler)who can talk to a woman who is about to abort and saves her child without mentioning religion is a wonerful counceler. We have to understand that not everyone believes in Jesus or the same God. The facts speak for themselvs. This is a very powerful person.
I have asked my religious friends about abortion and asked them if everything is in God's hands then why is there abortion? God has us all in his hands so why?? Why are kids being abused, babies thrown in dumpsters? People being raped? If God has a plan for everyone then why are the unborn being aborted? When a born baby does it is often said God is calling the baby home for whatever reason.....but the same is not said for the unborn....we have seen people in car accadents or coma who "were dead" or "should be dead" and are up living normal lives obviously miracles happen so why don't they happen to save the millions of unborn being aborted??

reply from: yoda

I think anyone who saves a baby is doing a wonderful thing. And I'm going to leave it at that.

reply from: faithman

I think anyone who saves a baby is doing a wonderful thing. And I'm going to leave it at that.
Thank God for freedom of speech. Everyone has the right to express their opinion, even if it is secular humanist monky poop.

reply from: yoda

Hey, be careful, monkey-lips may read that!

reply from: faithman

Hey, be careful, monkey-lips may read that!
TYRANT !!!!!!!

reply from: YesYouNeedJesus

If that baby ends up in hell, because that counselor was unwilling to speak the truth of the gospel, they have done a huge disservice to that woman and baby. I'm curious, if Jesus is not real, and God is whoever we make Him to be, why is abortion wrong?
Everything is not under God's meticulous control. God is free. Men were made in the image of God, and we are free. Love must be freely given, it cannot be forced. Because of this, men can choose good or evil. Abortion exists because men are evil. I'm sorry you've fallen to prey to unbiblical and wrong Christian cliches.
See above...
Another wrong unbiblical Christian cliche. It;s not God's plan for any baby to be aborted.
Yet another wrong unbiblical Christian cliche. People say that God "takes people home" to help deal with the pain. When someone is murdered in cold blood, God is not behind that wicked act.
We have no evidence that God does miracles today. The overall reaction to miracles in the Bible was disbelief. Do you ever notice that people pray to God when their car won't start, but never pray to Him to fix their flat tire?

reply from: JaysonsMom

It is crazy, I agree. If I'm mistaken or misinformed about something, please tell me. I appreciate it, but the rudeness was uncalled for. I try to treat others as I would want to be treated.
Thanks for the comment about myspace!
Amy

reply from: JaysonsMom

I understand. It's a really sensitve topic and we are easily misunderstood. I'll do my best to come across more clearly.
Amy

reply from: JaysonsMom

I understand what you mean. I'd love to be able to express what I feel without fear of being attacked but I know that's just not going to happen. I don't make it a habit to attack anyone; I try to disagree in a mature manner and if it gets heated and I screw up, I'll admit it.
Amy

reply from: faithman

It is crazy, I agree. If I'm mistaken or misinformed about something, please tell me. I appreciate it, but the rudeness was uncalled for. I try to treat others as I would want to be treated.
Thanks for the comment about myspace!
Amy
Listen lady!!! You started this rift by calling me narrow minded, harsh and unforgiving. Don't play all innocent and hurt. Don't start a fuss and exspect me to lay down. You have been just as rude. You have also heavily insinuated that your compassion for killer mom trumps justice for the womb child. You have tried to present yourself as spiritually superior based on your opinion only. I do challange what you have posted, for I believe your are logicly and scripturally in error. You have been treated exactly how you have treated me. No one is pushing anyone out. But don't exspect to spew your crap without getting called on it.

reply from: carolemarie

I agree with you totally. God is the judge, not us. Meanwhile, we can help those who have sinned find out about Jesus so they can be forgiven and healed. All abortion is selfish, unless it is the mother's life. None of that means that I think abortion is okay or that I don't care that the baby was killed. I just trust God to take care of the baby.
I think the most wonderful thing in the world is that Jesus WANTS to forgive those who sin so they don't have to pay for their sins. I am sure glad He did that for me!

reply from: Shiprahagain

If that baby ends up in hell, because that counselor was unwilling to speak the truth of the gospel, they have done a huge disservice to that woman and baby. I'm curious, if Jesus is not real, and God is whoever we make Him to be, why is abortion wrong?
Babies don't go to hell.

reply from: faithman

Once again, when someone is convicted of murder, the court is merely repeating God's judgement. Though the eternal consiquence has been dealt with thru repentance, there is still the temperal consiquence. God is the ultimate judge yes. But he has also ordained government to be a terror to evil doers. When Government is not a terror to evil, it is out of the will of God. All americans are derelict in their duty as the government of the people, to not bring abortionist, and killer moms to the same justice as all murderers. You do not get to hide behind your neo-christianity, then neglect your God ordained call for justice to the dead womb child. What you post here is a cop out because you do not have the courage to truely stand for what is just and right. To exstend this false compassion to the guilty wehile ignoring justice for the slaughtered child, is a total mis use of the Gospel.

reply from: carolemarie

In the example of a lazy mother killing two of her younger children, you have to realize that this woman would have given birth to these children, feed them, bathed them, clothed them, knows their voice, laugh and personality. That is why it is so totally depraved to intentionally kill them Perhaps saying it took malice was incorrect. It is pure evil.
Abortion is not personal like the above example. It is without malice. (ill will toward the baby) Women don't have abortions because they hate the baby.
I never said that abortion was okay. It isn't. But it is legal and that is why it is so strange you all want to punish the woman for doing what is legal. Retroactive justice isn't justice, it is revenge.

reply from: faithman

Boy!! You are quit the little spin doctor aren't you? So to place a convicted murderer in jail after the fact is revenge? Was it wrong for us to hang the death camp operators, who used the same deffence as you just presented for killer moms? They said that we couldn't convict them of war crimes because it was legal to kill jews in germany. Their is a great deal of malice towards the womb child. Some of the excuses are "my career", "my education", "my relationship". Yepper, a great deal of murderous malice is dealt out to the womb child, simply because they got in the way.

reply from: carolemarie

I understand what you are saying. But it isn't really accurate. There is a big difference in killing a born person and killing someone unborn. That is why so many people can do one but not the other.
Do you honestly believe that a 15 year old girl is acting in malice when she obtains an abortion because she is scared? Do you really honestly believe that is the same thing as lynching someone? Can you not see the difference?
I am a little frustrated because I have had this conversation over and over with pro-lifer's. Generally, men tend to have no mercy or compassion for the women, it is all about the baby.
When I go to the clinics, I want to reach those who are coming to the clinic, hopefully to change their mind. But even if I fail at that, I still want to reach them as they come out. I still want to be their friend. Because that is what I believe God wants us to do. He still cares about those women who ignored your signs and your pleas for mercy. No matter if it is one abortion or thirty, He still wants to love her and forgive her.
Blessings,
Carole

reply from: JaysonsMom

You and I feel the same way and are both being attacked for our beliefs. I'm frustrated as well, but you know that neither of us will ever be able to get a point across. Our words will ALWAYS be twisted and used against us.
Amy

reply from: pookiy1980

So Carolemarie says
So if 1st degree murders on death row can be "saved" why can't the mothers who abort be also? He cares enough to liisten to the prayers of those murders so why would he not care about those who have aborted?
Yes you are right it is God who judges not us. If he does not like the way someone is living their life then it is up to Him to 'make them pay".

reply from: pookiy1980

If that baby ends up in hell, because that counselor was unwilling to speak the truth of the gospel, they have done a huge disservice to that woman and baby. I'm curious, if Jesus is not real, and God is whoever we make Him to be, why is abortion wrong?
Jesus sends babies to hell??? You have to understand not everyone thinks the same "truth" as you do. I am not one to get into the whole religion discussion. I know what I believe I know who I feel died on the cross for me...but I also understand that not everyone has the same feeling.
If Jesus is not real? I don;t know I think he is but others may not. Why is abortion wrong? Becasue murder is wrong. My feeling on murder has nothing to do with religion.
Muslums, Buddhism, exc they are against abortion and they do not pray to Jesus.
Maybe not for the baby to be aborted but you say, He does not have a plan for all of us?
Sorry, I do not get it. I understand he is not behind the act. Calling the baby home, takes people home..what is the difference he is bringing/taking them back to heaven...to deal with the pain? what pain??? SIDS babys are not sickly and in pain..
Pray for a car to start?? Um no??
Yes there is plenty of miracles today....you do not think someone in a coma who wakes, or someone in a head on MVA who survives, or remember baby Amillia born extremely premature...you don't think those are miracles??? I hope no body who has experienced one is reading this because that would be very upsetting....

reply from: faithman

So Carolemarie says
So if 1st degree murders on death row can be "saved" why can't the mothers who abort be also? He cares enough to liisten to the prayers of those murders so why would he not care about those who have aborted?
Yes you are right it is God who judges not us. If he does not like the way someone is living their life then it is up to Him to 'make them pay".
It is not about make them pay. It is about justice for the pre-born child. Your are still giving prefered treatment to the born over the pre-born. That is the foundation of "choice". That is the attitude that must be totally defeated, or the babies die.

reply from: yoda

Wow.... maybe you're not as evil as I thought..... maybe you're just DOWNRIGHT STUPID AS A DOORKNOB!
NO, monkey brains..... SHE is the one who made that distinction.... NOT ME!! And YOU agreed with HER!!
Wow..... no wonder you get into fights with just about everyone in here...... geeeesh!

reply from: JaysonsMom

I agree. The unborn child deserves justice. The women who abort should be brought to justice and we can still try and help them while they serve their time.

reply from: faithman

I agree. The unborn child deserves justice. The women who abort should be brought to justice and we can still try and help them while they serve their time.
I can't take all this niceness. Can we plllllleeeeeeze fight about something?

reply from: JaysonsMom

Okay, let me think of something we can fight about

reply from: faithman

Thank you sssssoooo very much. I missed my fussaholics meeting, and I need a fix.

reply from: JaysonsMom

Now see? There you go with that darn "SSSOOOO" business again. What's up with that? Are you trying to annoy me again? Huh? Are you?

reply from: faithman

Gosh!!! Am I SSSSSSOOOO obvious?

reply from: carolemarie

God can end abortion in one nano second if He so chooses, He hasn't chosen to do that. I know that we pray and pray and beg for this to end, yet it is still here. Perhaps He hasn't ended it because we are not doing what He wants us to do.

reply from: yoda

Still no answer to this, so............
Originally posted by: concernedparent
So, you think morality is dependent on malicious intent? If an abortion were performed without malice, then it would not be "immoral?" I was wrong about you. Yoda, you are dumber than I thought....
Wow.... maybe you're not as evil as I thought..... maybe you're just DOWNRIGHT STUPID AS A DOORKNOB!
NO, monkey brains..... SHE is the one who made that distinction.... NOT ME!! And YOU agreed with HER!!
Wow..... no wonder you get into fights with just about everyone in here...... geeeesh!

reply from: carolemarie

Who says we should talk to people on a secular basis? What makes you think that would change anything?
I have been don\ing sidewalk counseling for 12 years, and I have seen on the average about 60 confirmed saves a year. I alway talk about God Otherwise it is just dueling opinions, which are worthless
If I believe it isn't a baby till it is born, then your argu;ments will not faze me. I would just feel thats your opinon. Without God, abortion is permissable.

reply from: MoonLady

All it takes is a good reading of this thread to answer the original question. Fight, fight, fight amongst yourselves, be divisive and disjointed, argue about petty subjects - you are your own worst enemy.
If you want to get your message across, first of all you have to agree exactly what that message is. Then, deliver it with love and compassion for BOTH the unborn and the desperate pregnant women and girls.
Hatred, name-calling, desire for retribution, judgementalism - none of it is appropriate no matter what your spiritual beliefs and especially not if you call yourself a Christian.

reply from: yoda

Right.............. is that what you would say to that 14 year old "slut" you were talking about the other day?

reply from: faithman

God has created all the heavens and earth. He is soveriegn [sp] over all things. He has deligated that authority to mankind over the earth. Genesis 1:26-28; psalm 8:1-8. Because of the fall, evil was loosed on the earth. When men are evil, they use their dominion to do evil. When men are good, they use their dominion to do what is right. God has given great power to mankind. It was given to us to serve.

reply from: Teresa18

Here is what I think she means. Without God, where is the real purpose in life? What is point of striving to live, change the world, help people that are starving, sick, or in need? When it is believed that we are all random particles that came out of an accidental bang, what is the point in living? Afterall, as described to me by one atheist, we are all blips on the radar of an earth that will one day dissapear. Why work to live a good life and help others, if we all have the same destiny of permanent dust? With God, life has meaning. It has a purpose as each person is created in God's image. We are called to do his work in the world, spreading his message, helping brothers and sisters in need, etc., with the knowledge that we will one day spend eternity with God.

reply from: faithman

God has created all the heavens and earth. He is soveriegn [sp] over all things. He has deligated that authority to mankind over the earth. Genesis 1:26-28; psalm 8:1-8. Because of the fall, evil was loosed on the earth. When men are evil, they use their dominion to do evil. When men are good, they use their dominion to do what is right. God has given great power to mankind. It was given to us to serve.

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

You disagree with Isaiah 58:1 "Shout it aloud, do not hold back. Raise your voice like a trumpet, and declare to my people their transgression...."
Jesus may not have shouted or raised his voice, however, you must dislike Jesus technique. In John 7:44 Jesus walked up to sinners and said, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning...." Yes, this was not well received. In John 7:59 "...they picked up stones to throw at Him...."
Jesus testified, "This is an evil and adulterous generation." In John 7:7 Jesus records the response that he gets: "The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil." NIV or Living Translation paraphrase: "... the world hates me because I keeping telling it it's ways are bad."
If you were like Jesus, you would be in the face of sinners testifying against the evil adulterous murdering they are commiting, that it is bad and comes from the heart of one following the desires of their father the devil.

reply from: yoda

No, I didn't "misunderstand" her, I quoted her precisely............ and YOU agreed with her statement......... and then accused me of saying what SHE SAID!
That's about it, monkey brains......... but I know you're waaaay to proud to ever admit a mistake.......... so I'll just leave it at that.

reply from: faithman

No, I didn't "misunderstand" her, I quoted her precisely............ and YOU agreed with her statement......... and then accused me of saying what SHE SAID!
That's about it, monkey brains......... but I know you're waaaay to proud to ever admit a mistake.......... so I'll just leave it at that.
...looks like you found the mulberry bush again...

reply from: carolemarie

Actually it doesn't matter if they believe in God. I talk to them about what I KNOW to be true.
I ask them questions and they answer them. We talk, a dialog between two people. Lots of them will let me pray with thme, even though they don't believe in God.
God is the one who changes their minds and hearts, not me. I dont have that kind of power, but my God certainly does! I share my testimony with them and care about them. We help them too. With money, with help like baby furniture, but more importantly, we scrub their floors, wash their clothes, visit and we help them like we said we would. Love in action.

reply from: carolemarie

Here is what I think she means. Without God, where is the real purpose in life? What is point of striving to live, change the world, help people that are starving, sick, or in need? When it is believed that we are all random particles that came out of an accidental bang, what is the point in living? Afterall, as described to me by one atheist, we are all blips on the radar of an earth that will one day dissapear. Why work to live a good life and help others, if we all have the same destiny of permanent dust? With God, life has meaning. It has a purpose as each person is created in God's image. We are called to do his work in the world, spreading his message, helping brothers and sisters in need, etc., with the knowledge that we will one day spend eternity with God.
That is exactly what I meant! Thank you for saying so well and without typo!
Carole

reply from: carolemarie

Here is what I think she means. Without God, where is the real purpose in life? What is point of striving to live, change the world, help people that are starving, sick, or in need? When it is believed that we are all random particles that came out of an accidental bang, what is the point in living? Afterall, as described to me by one atheist, we are all blips on the radar of an earth that will one day dissapear. Why work to live a good life and help others, if we all have the same destiny of permanent dust? With God, life has meaning. It has a purpose as each person is created in God's image. We are called to do his work in the world, spreading his message, helping brothers and sisters in need, etc., with the knowledge that we will one day spend eternity with God.
It is very narrow minded to assume that atheists have no reason to be concerned about making the world a better place, or that they feel they have no "purpose."
I'm glad I don't feel that my life would be meaningless if there were no God. I'm also glad I can care about other people even if there's no sky daddy to punish me for eternity if I don't...
If this is it, you might as well do what benefits you and gives you the easiest, most painless and trouble free life possible. That would include legal abortion, or prostiution if it was in your best interest at the time.


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