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Definitely Pro-Life 20 yrs after two abortions

Devastated I killed my babies!

by: SouthDakotaMom

When I was 25. I became pregnant for the first time. I was in a very bad relationship with a man who didn't work, but drank to the point of meanness -- hitting me with the butt of a rifle, holding a cocked, loaded pistol to my head, who once picked me up and threw me on a pile of construction barricades. I constantly lived in fear. While I worked full-time, he gathered up drugs from all his friends and brought them home, which made the situation even worse. So, facing this life with this man and the baby I was pregnant with, I knew I couldn't leave. I had nowhere to go and no money to get there. I aborted that baby. A year later, I became pregnant again. I called my family -- trying to find anywhere I could go where I would have help with my babies. Yes, I was carrying twins. I always wanted twins, but I was in the worst relationship with the worst guy. (He has two sons from prevvious relationships, and signed over his rights for both of them, since he has no desire to hold down a job and pay child support.) Again, I had nowhere I could go, so I made the same decision. I had the abortion, and a week later I miscarried the second twin, in a gas station restroom on my way home from work. I ended up having to have a DNC. Now all these years later, I am an emotional wreck about what I have done. I always wanted twins. I was just with the wrong man. If he treated me that way, he would surely treat the babies that way. I wish when I knew I was having twins, I would have just left and tried to figure it out on my own. I am so definitely PRO-LIFE! If you're thinking about having an abortion, please don't. Now I'm unable to have children, and those two pregnancies were the only chances I had. Give the baby up for adoption. There are many women, including me, who would love to have a little baby life to hold and snuggle and love and kiss. Planned Parenthood doesn't give you all the information you need to make these decisions. They don't tell you that at sometime in the future (for me it was 15 yrs), you will be hit with the most terrible depression thinking about those babies! It will get into your mind and stay there, so you can't think of anything else, so you can be depressed even more. Please, please, if you're considering an abortion, get ahold of me. I would gladly adopt your baby or babies -- I know I would be a very loving, very sensible mother. Get ahold of me so I can talk you out of killing that little life, please. Please don't kill that baby -- that baby feels things, they hear your voice, they know your touch. Please -- you WILL regret it if you go through with an abortion.

reply from: Shiprahagain

SouthDakotaMom,
Welcome! Thanks for sharing your story. Keep sharing it because you will make a difference in so many people's lives. You have come to the right place - you will find a supportive community here. I'm Shiprah, and I'm a 20 year old college sophomore. It's so nice to meet you.
I'm so sorry you were mistreated. I wish that when you had been pregnant you had known about the 3,000 prolife pregnancy centers all over the company to hellp you -- the free housing, healthcare, childcare, and baby products available to desperate women. I just hate you found a community of prolifers so late. Have you considered getting involved with some kind of advocacy work to help other women in your position? Or protesting Planned Parenthood with groups like http://www.all.org/stopp/ You said that you're an emotional wreck -- there is free help for postabortive women. If you want help, check out http://www.rachelsvineyard.org/ or http://afterabortion.com/

And once more, welcome to the forum. We are really happy that you're here.

reply from: xnavy

welcome to the forum, my minister was preaching about guilt, he said it could be destructive or healing, you can find healing by helping
others or you can let it eat you inside. i hope you find healing in rachelsvineyard. i hope God blesses you with His peace.

reply from: MoonLady

Thank you for sharing your story. What a horrible experience! I only wish that you would have been able to find a shelter for abused women. They would have helped you get away from this man, have housing in a safe place, get a protection from abuse order and/or restraining order and get medical help for your pregnancies so that you could have continued them to term. They will help you get everything from housing to employment to dental care and to get your abuser put in jail or ordered to stay away from you.
Maybe this happened a long time ago when there were no shelters and you thought you had no choice. But I hope your story serves as a warning for other women in your situation. HELP IS OUT THERE! If you are pregnant to an abusive man (or even just living with or married to one), PLEASE go the the police or call a women's shelter. NEVER, EVER allow anyone to force you or make you feel that you have to get an abortion if that is not what you want!!!
Now that you are out of this situation, maybe you would consider volunteering for your local women's shelter. They are almost always looking for help and no one understands the situation better than women who have themselves been abused.
I wish you the best.

reply from: proliferalltheway

Welcome to the boards!! I am SOOOO SORRY for what you have gone thru!! I cannot imagine what that must have been like for you!
Sharing your story with others, will DEFINATELY make a difference!! I GUARANTEE IT!! There is no one better to tell it like it is than having someone who has already been thru it before!
I hope and pray that you have peace in your heart and that you have happiness and freedom from abuse.
Take care and God Bless!!

reply from: yoda

Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to welcome you under such circumstances, but I'm glad that you seem to have found your moral bearings now. Thanks for sharing your story with us, and please feel welcome here.

reply from: faithman

Let's say that you adopted children. What would give us assurance of the childrens safty if the going got tuff? Nothing in your story says you would stick it out. As sad as this little tale is, what about justice for the children who were killed simply because mommy was having a hard time? You had options. What option did the womb child have? If they were given the choice between a hard child hood [temperary] over death [permanent], what do you think the womb child would have chosen? Justice must be blind to sentiment. All I heard in this post is a boo hoo moment that excuses killing a helpless child. It aint about killer mom. It is about protecting womb children from such actions, no matter what excuse is used to kill them.

reply from: MoonLady

Wow, that is one of the cruelest posts you've ever written! This woman confesses what she did many years ago and how she is literally DEVASTATED by what she did - and you give her a lecture? She is now PRO-LIFE because of her experience - and you berate her?
Jesus, the Lord and Saviour that I learned about since birth, taught compassion and forgiveness. I guess you missed that part of the Bible and your Sunday School lessons.
You owe SouthDakotaMom a big apology and you should be ashamed of yourself.

reply from: faithman

I will never be ashamed, nor apologize for speaking up for justice to the womb child. If we had a judge dismiss charges against a Ted Bundy simply because he was sorry, we would want him removed from the bench. I am glad this person regrets killing a child, but that does not get justice for the child that was killed. this person has told us the "sad tale" of killing children to releave the burden of her life, then turns right around and tells us she would be a good mom? What in her known history here assures us that she wouldn't kill or abandon a born child if the going got tuff? We should always error on the side of children, and not excuse those who kill simply because they want to tug a tear from our eye with their story of hardship.

reply from: MoonLady

You might love "womb children" but it's becoming quite obvious that you hate women, even those who have been abused and beaten and survived to make a better life.
What a sick, sad excuse for a man you are.

reply from: faithman

SSSOOOO, you advocate pulling womb children limb from limb, and I am the sick one? I advocate bringing killers to justice, and from that you construe that I hate all women? So we should ignore the crime of car jacking, if those who car jack can be proven to have a hard life? So justice is suspended if the criminal can intertain us with a sad story?

reply from: Teresa18

Welcom to the board, SouthDakotaMom. I'm glad to see you are pro-life now. We all arrive at our conclusion differently, it's a shame that you had to reach yours after three abortions. Sometimes obstacles in life make women feel that they have no where to go. Part of the pro-life movement is making sure that they know they have somewhere to go when pregnant. The Crisis Pregnancy Centers (CPC) to a great job in helping pregnant women get whatever they need. Here is a link to find some in your city:
http://www.cpclink.com/

Anyway, I know that you look back in regret now. While you'll never get your three children back, you can always ask God for forgiveness, and you can use your experiences to save children in the future. You can volunteer with Right to Life or a local CPC to help in the fight to end abortion, and in the meantime, help pregnant women so that they don't make the same choice you did.
With the emotional struggles, there are some great places that help. Shipra provided a link to Rachel's Vineyard. That is a retreat to help women struggling with PASS or Post Abortion Stress Syndrome. Despite what those who support abortion and psychologists say, it is very real. Many women experience the same feelings you did after an abortion. Don't feel like you are alone. Your local CPC may offer counseling for women who have had abortions. There are two great links I am posting. Both are forums where women who have had abortions can talk to each other and take comfort. The women will accept you with open arms, and I can say from what I read, none are judgemental. They are all struggling and going through the same grief.
Visit the board to read what many of the women are going through after their abortions.
http://afterabortion.com/forums/index.php
This is also a great forum. I actually think it is better than the above because you don't have to register to read the accounts of what women are going through. (scroll down)
http://www.safehavenministries.../members/Ultimate.cgi

reply from: MoonLady

Faithman - "SSSOOOO, you advocate pulling womb children limb from limb, and I am the sick one? I advocate bringing killers to justice, and from that you construe that I hate all women? So we should ignore the crime of car jacking, if those who car jack can be proven to have a hard life? So justice is suspended if the criminal can intertain us with a sad story?"
Read your Bible. You ARE sick. Hasn't that poor woman (SouthDakotaMom) been punishing herself enough without you adding frivolously insulting comments? Do you actually think her life story is entertaining? Are you really comparing legal abortion with illegal carjacking?
Sick, sick, sick and heartless. I only wish you could be a pregnant woman in an abusive relationship so you could feel the torture and the helplessness and the feelings that you are like an animal trapped in a cage with an armed man beside you just waiting to beat the*****out of you or kill you?
And if you think I actually "advocate pulling womb children limb from limb", you REALLY are confused. Over and over I have reiterated that 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions should be illegal except for dire medical reasons - you know, that 4/100th of a percent of all abortions in this country.
First-trimester abortions, which I believe are not immoral or wrong, involve no limb pulling because the fetuses are too small to have recognizable limbs, if they even exist (some have only buds where the limbs will grow eventually.) It's really hard to pull something that you can't see or doesn't exist.
Enjoy your little dance in Hell.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Faithman - your concerns are legitimate but they could be rendered with more compassion - remember how Jesus treated the crooks on the cross beside him?
Moonlady - I know you have a special version of the Bible were compassion is considered posting pictures of deformed babies you think are too ugly to live as support for abortion, so you are the last person who should be lecturing anybody on anything. As for your information about the first trimester --- try cracking open a book -- I swear, knowledge won't hurt you.
First Trimester Fetal Development
More than 89% of all abortions in the United States are performed before the end of the first trimester (12 weeks) of pregnancy. Here are just a few amazing developments that take place within the womb during that time.
The circulatory system develops and the baby's heart begins to beat. An ultrasound shows the visual image of a heartbeat at 5 weeks gestational age.
Basic facial features form, complete with eyelids, nostrils, outer ears, lips, and tooth buds. Detailed facial structure, such as the chin, nose, and mouth are apparent.
The baby has grown from one cell to nearly 3 inches long and weighs almost 1 ounce. Hair color, eye color, height, body frame size and shape were all determined at conception.
The baby makes spontaneous movements with his or her new muscles, bone, and connective tissues.
Speaking of gender, the baby's external genitalia are visible through ultrasound.
Tiny finger and toes are complete with soft fingernails and toenails. Wrists, elbows, knees, and knuckles are visible.
The brain is active and rapidly growing by 250,000 neurons every minute.
Sources: National Library of Medicine, Mayo Clinic, Baptists for Life, and the National Institutes for Health.

reply from: faithman

AAAHHHH the pro-death skank shows their true colors. All anyone has to do is check out the fiber optic pictures, and can see for themselves that arms and legs are present at 8 weeks, along with brain waves and heart beats. So you are the sick one who advocates the ripping apart of these little arms and leggs. You are right, to compare the life destroying act of abortion, to taking someones ability to go to the store, doesn't do the horible crime of child killing justice. So if the mother of a born child gets abused by hubby, that would justify her killing her kids?

reply from: yoda

I was looking for something positive in that post, but you are right that there was an absence of guilty expression. I'm still glad that someone who has gone through two abortions now says she is prolife, but I have to agree that unless there is genuine repentance for a horrible mistake, it could easily happen again.

reply from: yoda

Like you hate those 14 year old "sluts"?

reply from: yoda

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself...... you can't help it!

reply from: faithman

I was looking for something positive in that post, but you are right that there was an absence of guilty expression. I'm still glad that someone who has gone through two abortions now says she is prolife, but I have to agree that unless there is genuine repentance for a horrible mistake, it could easily happen again.
I am not the heartless one here. to exstend compassion to a murderer, at the exspence of justice for the innocent victim, is the ultimate cruelty to me. "Prolife" reaches out so much to killer mom, that the womb child gets over looked.

reply from: karen

I fail to see the significance of the twin pregnancy. Why would things have been different if you had known you were carrying two foetuses rather than one?

reply from: faithman

Twice the inconveniance?!

reply from: JaysonsMom

New member here, just saying hello to everyone.
For the original poster, sorry to hear you can't have anymore children. Despite what Faithman has said, the only person who could make the choices you did is you. I'm not condoning abortion; I'm pro-life all the way. But until someone walks a mile in your shoes, they can't say what they would or wouldn't do. I've been in an abusive relationship in the past, much like yours, and I know that it changes you in every way. I think your fear clouded your judgement and I can see that you're remorseful.
Don't worry, not all of us are here to slam you for your choices.

reply from: faithman

SSSSOOOO justice for the slain womb children should be totally forgotten? What if she killed a born child? Would you feel the same and say she gets a free walk? When the choice stops an innocent heart beat, shouldn't that choice be slammed?

reply from: karen

How come you can say that you are prolife all the way, therefore implying that nothing would alter your views, but the rest of us don't know whether we would still be in given situations. I find it incredibly insulting when people tell me that I don't know my own mind. I know that I would under no circumstances have an abortion, and one of the reasons for this is that I do not want to ever be in the situation of the original poster, having to live with the guilt of what I had done.

reply from: Shiprahagain

I agree Karen. I'm twenty and once I was talking with a woman I know who's in her forties. We respect and really like each other even though she is non-religious and prochoice and I'm Christian and prolife. One day as our relationship developed she shared with me that she is prochoice because when she was my age she was drugged and ganged raped. She didn't get pregnant but she feels that had she would have been further traumatized by it. She then told me I couldn't really say whether or not I would be prolife in such a circumstance. I know that no matter what I would be prolife, but at the same time, I felt it'd be cruel to tell her that. One of the people I'm inspired by if Frederick Douglass's mother who was impregnated by her owner, probably through rape. Frederick was sold from her to a plantation miles away yet when she could she would walk miles to see him at night, sneaking away risking beatings, torture, and even death if she was discovered just to hold him for a few minutes before returning home. Frederick Douglass's mother was in the ultimate abusive situation that most situations today cannot possibly rival, yet she still chose to be a loving mother. I think it's an insult to women like her for women in modern day crisis pregnancies to use that crisis as a reason to deny their children the rights they deserve.

reply from: yoda

Welcome to the forum, JaysonsMom.
I think that forgiveness is a wonderful thing, and I'm always willing to accept post-abortive women who truly regret their abortions and accept responsibility for their mistakes as equals in the battle to save babies.
I don't think the focus ought to be on who gets "slammed", but rather who is willing to condemn the act of electively killing babies, no matter what the stressful situation might be. If a woman kills her born kids because of stress, and she isn't "insane", then she gets no "sympathy points"..... the same ought to be true of a woman killing her unborn kids.
It's true that none of us knows how strong we really are, but that doesn't mean we can't recognize the immorality of weakness.

reply from: JaysonsMom

1. Thanks for the welcome, glad to be here.
2. Faithman, I can see by your condescending way of writing that you have issues. I hope you will one day resolve them so that you can discuss controversial topics without being harsh, judging, and assuming.
Never in my post did I say that justice for the aborted child should be forgotten. I said that you should walk a mile in that person's shoes before you slam and judge them. I hardly think that she is getting a "free walk". Her walk involves guilt over the abortion, among other things. God will forgive anything if you are truly remoreseful and if she asked for forgiveness and, in her heart, sincerely wants it, He will give it. It is for Him to judge, not you or I. So again, I'm not condoning abortion, I'm showing compassion for a fellow human being, regardless of what she did. That's what christians do.
God forgives those who had an abortion when they ask.
Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin (Psalm 51:1-2).
Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity. Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me (Psalm 51:9-10).
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense---Jesus Christ, the Righteous One (1 John 1:9-2:1).

reply from: faithman

1. Thanks for the welcome, glad to be here.
2. Faithman, I can see by your condescending way of writing that you have issues. I hope you will one day resolve them so that you can discuss controversial topics without being harsh, judging, and assuming.
Never in my post did I say that justice for the aborted child should be forgotten. I said that you should walk a mile in that person's shoes before you slam and judge them. I hardly think that she is getting a "free walk". Her walk involves guilt over the abortion, among other things. God will forgive anything if you are truly remoreseful and if she asked for forgiveness and, in her heart, sincerely wants it, He will give it. It is for Him to judge, not you or I. So again, I'm not condoning abortion, I'm showing compassion for a fellow human being, regardless of what she did. That's what christians do.
God forgives those who had an abortion when they ask.
Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin (Psalm 51:1-2).
Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity. Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me (Psalm 51:9-10).
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense---Jesus Christ, the Righteous One (1 John 1:9-2:1).
SSSSOOO I am not to judge, but you get to make all those judgmental statement against me? I would truely hope that all murders on death roe would come to Christ before their date with the needle. Just because they came to faith though, I would not want that date cancled. If abortion is murder, then for the sake of justice for the innocent life lost, killer mom should face the same sentance as a killer mom of a born child. Unless of course you agree with Planned Parenthood that the womb child is a second class citizen and deserves no consideration at all as your post implies. Your brand of compassion is what is cruel and harsh, because it is fully exstended to the guilty at the expence of the innocent. My "isssue" will be resolved when killer skanks quit killing children then think they can get away with it simply because they say oops, sorry about that! I guarantee that you would not extend the same "comassion" to me, if I killed a child then said let me go because I said sorry. You would want justice for that child.

reply from: JaysonsMom

What is up with the "SSSOOO" in your posts? That's what I meant by condescending, which isn't a judgement, by the way, it's an observation. I get the feeling that you enjoy trying to get a rise out of other posters. Sorry, it won't work with me.
Anyway, on to your reply.
I also hope that all the murderers in prison realize the error of their ways and sincerely ask God for forgiveness before their sentence is carried out. I don't understand why you feel my brand of compassion is cruel and harsh, just because I don't automatically and narrow-mindedly condemn the woman who aborted her child. Does calling them "killer skanks" make you feel like a bigger person? If so, it shouldn't. We should be able to discuss our difference in opinions without resorting to 4th grade tactics. And for the record, if you murdered a child (or anyone else), I would show you the same compassion. I would hope that you would sincerely see the error of your ways and repent.
Never in any of my posts have I stated any belief that an unborn child is a "second class citizen" or anything of that nature. You should see from my posts that I refer to them as 'children', not 'fetus' or 'mass of cells' like many people do. I fully believe that unborn children are children from conception and that they have the same rights as everyone else. Period. Because I show compassion for their mothers who have made terrible mistakes doesn't mean that I feel anything less for the child that was aborted.
Amy

reply from: faithman

What is up with the "SSSOOO" in your posts? That's what I meant by condescending, which isn't a judgement, by the way, it's an observation. I get the feeling that you enjoy trying to get a rise out of other posters. Sorry, it won't work with me.
Anyway, on to your reply.
I also hope that all the murderers in prison realize the error of their ways and sincerely ask God for forgiveness before their sentence is carried out. I don't understand why you feel my brand of compassion is cruel and harsh, just because I don't automatically and narrow-mindedly condemn the woman who aborted her child. Does calling them "killer skanks" make you feel like a bigger person? If so, it shouldn't. We should be able to discuss our difference in opinions without resorting to 4th grade tactics. And for the record, if you murdered a child (or anyone else), I would show you the same compassion. I would hope that you would sincerely see the error of your ways and repent.
Never in any of my posts have I stated any belief that an unborn child is a "second class citizen" or anything of that nature. You should see from my posts that I refer to them as 'children', not 'fetus' or 'mass of cells' like many people do. I fully believe that unborn children are children from conception and that they have the same rights as everyone else. Period. Because I show compassion for their mothers who have made terrible mistakes doesn't mean that I feel anything less for the child that was aborted.
Amy
If it is automaticly narrow minded to demand justice for the murdered child, guilty as charged. Your post is more than an observation, it is your opinion and your judgement. Simple because you can't see that you minimalize justice, and humanity for the pre-born, dosen't make it any less true. Your compassion is extended towards the murderers of the womb child, with out demanding the same justice given out to the murderer of a born child. You are prejudice against the pre-born child, and willing to ignore the crime of killer skanks just because they may have said sorry about that. Your logic is full of deadly flaws, no matter how many times you post in bold print.

reply from: JaysonsMom

Thanks for leaving the "SSSOOO" out this time. Still using childish names though I see?
It's narrow-minded not to show compassion for all human beings, and that includes the woman who chose to abort her child. I don't minimize justice for anyone, including an unborn child who is aborted. The justice, to me, is for God, not me. If the woman isn't repentant, she'll have to face Him in the end. If she is truly remorseful and asks Him for forgiveness, He will give it. The child automatically finds a place with God; that IS justice. Your idea of justice and God's idea are very different.
I am in no way prejudiced against an unborn child and nowhere did I say the abortion would be ignored. Once the abortion is performed, it's between the woman and God. When I show compassion toward another human being, regardless of what he/she has done, that's being a christian, not prejudiced toward anyone.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

reply from: faithman

Thanks for leaving the "SSSOOO" out this time. Still using childish names though I see?
It's narrow-minded not to show compassion for all human beings, and that includes the woman who chose to abort her child. I don't minimize justice for anyone, including an unborn child who is aborted. The justice, to me, is for God, not me. If the woman isn't repentant, she'll have to face Him in the end. If she is truly remorseful and asks Him for forgiveness, He will give it. The child automatically finds a place with God; that IS justice. Your idea of justice and God's idea are very different.
I am in no way prejudiced against an unborn child and nowhere did I say the abortion would be ignored. Once the abortion is performed, it's between the woman and God. When I show compassion toward another human being, regardless of what he/she has done, that's being a christian, not prejudiced toward anyone.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
SSSSOOOO we should shut down all courts and just leave justice up to God? We should be SSSSSOOOO compassionate and let all murders out of Prison? SSSSSOOOOO we should ignore Romans chapter 13 that says governments were ordained of God to be a terror to the evil doers? SSSSSOOOO we need to forget justice for the child to exstend a false compassion towards killer mom? SSSSOOOO we are to ignore the admonition of scripture that says to stand in r3ebuke of wrong doers until they repent, and repay for their evil deeds? HHHHHMMMM you are SSSSSOOOO "compassionate" it hurts.

reply from: carolemarie

Dear South Dakota Mom:
I am so sorry that you had to go through that and that you were treated rudely here by those who claim to be pro-life. Your's is a powerful story that those seeking abortion should hear.
God promises to wipe away every tear you have ever cried, including those for your children. The bible says that the children of the barren woman will be more than the woman who can conceive. I forget where it is, but that is a promise that you will have spiritual children in Christ.
God is willing to forgive you, no matter how many abortions you have had. He loves you and before the foundations of time, He chose you to be His child.
And He has undone all your wrong choices. Your children live and you will see them again, because Jesus defeated death. That is such good news that it takes awhile to sink in! But death is defeated and your babies live with Christ.
I am so glad that you shared your story and gave a voice to the truth that abortion hurts women. God will use your story to reach many who are considering abortion.
I have put my post-abortion website address at the bottom of this post in case you need help healing.
Blessings and hugs,
Carole
www.choices4women.org

reply from: JaysonsMom

Well said, Carole and I agree. Here's another link, SD Mom.
http://www.safehavenministries.com/index.html

Amy

reply from: faithman

Now that we have had our touchy feel good opra moment, what do you think the penalty should be for killing a born child just because hubby was mean to you? Should the same penalty be given to the slayer of the womb child, as the penalty for the slayer of the born child? Oh thats right, it is legal to kill the preborn child, ssssooooo they deserve no consideration at all, and because killer mommy dearest suffers a little from her booboo, she gets a free walk.

reply from: JaysonsMom

Susan Smith and Andrea Yates didn't get a free walk. Susan is in prison, Andrea is a mental institution. Mary Beth Tinning didn't get a free walk either. She killed 9 of her children. Her parole was denied recently and she's not up again for 2 years.
Amy

reply from: faithman

Susan Smith and Andrea Yates didn't get a free walk. Susan is in prison, Andrea is a mental institution. Mary Beth Tinning didn't get a free walk either. She killed 9 of her children. Her parole was denied recently and she's not up again for 2 years.
Amy
That is exactly what I am talking about. If they were punished for killing the born, then that should be the penalty for killing the preborn. Not only is your logic prejudice towards the womb child, it is unfair to the ones who went to prison for killing a born child. It reenforces the need for abortion by telling women you better kill your children before they are born while it is still legal.

reply from: carolemarie

God has already provided justice. Jesus paid the price already. So justice has been mete out. Mercy is now available.
This is Christian 101, I fail to see what is so hard to get here. Our God is kind and loving and long suffering. He desires that we come to Him because He loves us. He is for us and is not counting our sins against us. He knew we would sin, and because He doesn't want us to perish in our sins, He sent His own Son, to die in our place on the cross. The way has been established and Jesus has purchased with His blood our freedom and justice has been satisfied.
All that remains is for any sinner to accept that gift. So we need to reach out to these lost women and help them find the God who loves them!
That's being pro-life!
Carole

reply from: carolemarie

Because she lost two children, not just one.
She grieves both of them
Blessings,
Carole

reply from: faithman

You contradict yourself. The accepting of the gift is a condition. If one does not accept the amnesty of calvary, they are condemned already, and the full wrath of God abides on them. Romans chapter 13 says that government is ordained of God to be a terror to the evil doer. That even goes for the christian. SSSSoooo your posts are based on your feelings, not the scripture. Go figure.

reply from: carolemarie

And they have until their last breathe to do that! Justice has been established, they just need to find that out and take a hold of it.
But our behavior can lead them to believe that Christians hate them, and they will assume so will our God. After all, if we are mean and hateful why should they think God wouldn't be? And that is a lie from Satan and He will use anything to keep people from Gods love, including us.
Sinners need Jesus. All sin sends you to hell. Including unforgiveness.
Carole

reply from: faithman

That is where you are wrong again. All sin does not send you to hell as Christ has died for all sin. The only thing that will cause eternal seperation from God, is not surrendering to Jesus Christ as Lord. Boy, some one really screwed your thinking up.

reply from: carolemarie

Behold your God! Loving and merciful to sinners, faithful to forgive and restore. He is the Father of compassion!
It is legal to have an abortion, so we can't punish women for having them. That should be rather obvious.
Those who sin don't get off scott free. Just because you don't see the consequences doesn't mean that there are none. We need to pray for them to find God and healing.
I am praying for you too. It sounds like your heart is broken for what you see as the horrible unjust plight of the unborn. Be assured that our God has the situtation under contol. You can afford to have compassion for the women as well.

reply from: carolemarie

I meant all unrepented sin. Sorry for being unclear.
Carole

reply from: faithman

You are still in error. When one surrenders his life to Christ, then the full wieght of calvary is applied. Repentance means to lose one's life for the life of Christ. Once a person surrenders their life to Christ, the heaven and hell issue is settled for good. The condition that must be met in order to recieve God's love, and the assurance of heaven, is to surrender your life to Christ as Lord, pluss nothing. For it is by grace we are saved thur faith, and that not of our selves it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast. Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

reply from: JaysonsMom

The Bible also says:
A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger (Pr. 15:1).
A hot tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a quarrel (Pr. 15:18).
When a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him (Pr. 16:7).
Starting a quarrel is like breaching a dam; so drop the matter before a dispute breaks out (Pr. 17:14).
It is to a man's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel (Pr. 20:3)
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful (2 Tim. 2:23-24).
All of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble (1 Pet. 3:6).
He who guards his lips guards his soul, but he who speaks rashly will come to ruin (Pr. 13:3).
A fool's talk brings a rod to his back, but the lips of the wise protect them (Pr.14:3).
He who guards his mouth and his tongue keeps himself from calamity (Pr. 21:23).
But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken (Mt. 12:36).
Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech (1 Pet. 3:10).
************************************************************
faithman, I certainly don't see you following any of these verses. Nearly every post you make, unless someone agrees with you, is filled with name-calling, belittling, insults, and rude comments.

reply from: carolemarie

That is cruel and heartless. She is obviously sorry, that is why she is telling her story to warn other women.

reply from: carolemarie

Your just being mean! Do you hate women who have had abortions, no matter if they have repented? Do you still want to see them punished? That isn't right.
Justice is mine says the Lord. So you don't have to worry about making sure women suffer either in jail or from the cruel words you throw at them.

reply from: carolemarie

So what do you want to happen to the woman who aborts? What would satisfy your idea of justice in this case?

reply from: faithman

You mis quote the scriptures. justice is not vengance. So it is cruel to demand justice for the slain? We should let the murderers go just because they say sorry about that? I believe they should face the same penalty as Yates, or anyone else who has killed a born child. They should face a jury, and justice. That ain't cruel, that is only fair.

reply from: faithman

You could stand to take your own medicane. Take the beam out of your own eye before you go looking for specks in mine. You are the one who is not guarding your mouth about things you obviously have no understanding about. I have not spoken evil nor decietfully. You are the one who started this foolish and stupid aurgument by implying the womb child does not deserve the same justice and protection as the one who is born. SSSSOOOO your "gentle Answere" is "harsh",
"narrow minded", "cruel", "unforgiving", along with numerous other names you have called me? If you ain't reached it don't preach it.

reply from: faithman

I did no such thing.
You most assurredly did.

reply from: faithman

And the post is scipturally out of order !!!! 1Timothy 2:11-12

reply from: JaysonsMom

I absolutely did not and who cares if the scriptures were out of order? Do you enjoy being nitpicky just to have something to fuss about?

reply from: faithman

I absolutely did not and who cares if the scriptures were out of order? Do you enjoy being nitpicky just to have something to fuss about?
Do you enjoy posting stupidity, and justify it simply because you said it? You shouldn't post scripture then call me nit picky simply because I showed you scripturally to be out of order. Don't use the book to give authority to your opinion, if you are not going to subject yourself to it's authority.

reply from: faithman

I absolutely did not and who cares if the scriptures were out of order? Do you enjoy being nitpicky just to have something to fuss about?
By the by, I did not say the scriptures were out of order, I said you were scripturally out of order in your post. Big difference. 1 Timothy 2:11,12

reply from: JaysonsMom

I misunderstood your post then. And I am not "out of order" as you say because I express my beliefs here. That is funny that you'd throw that passage up in an attempt to get me to hush. Sorry, it isn't going to work. That's not what God meant by that passage. I don't have to sit back while you insult people, call them names, and post things that are flat-out untrue.
This is about as private as you're going to get. You can't expect to come on a forum and say the things you say and expect women to just sit quietly, hands folded and not replying. I think it's funny that you are attempting to make this a man-vs-woman issue.
What Paul means by "all submissiveness" in verse twelve is a woman's willingness to be taught without choosing in which subjects she wishes to be taught.
I've been nothing but willing to look at other points of view and if I'm proven wrong, I accept it. What YOU do here is not teaching; it's bullying and childish name calling.
http://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html

http://pjake.blogspot.com/2006/08/does-1-timothy-211-12-forbid-ordination.html

reply from: faithman

I misunderstood your post then. And I am not "out of order" as you say because I express my beliefs here. That is funny that you'd throw that passage up in an attempt to get me to hush. Sorry, it isn't going to work. That's not what God meant by that passage. I don't have to sit back while you insult people, call them names, and post things that are flat-out untrue.
This is about as private as you're going to get. You can't expect to come on a forum and say the things you say and expect women to just sit quietly, hands folded and not replying. I think it's funny that you are attempting to make this a man-vs-woman issue.
What Paul means by "all submissiveness" in verse twelve is a woman's willingness to be taught without choosing in which subjects she wishes to be taught.
I've been nothing but willing to look at other points of view and if I'm proven wrong, I accept it. What YOU do here is not teaching; it's bullying and childish name calling.
http://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html

http://pjake.blogspot.com/2006/08/does-1-timothy-211-12-forbid-ordination.html
You continue to mis represent yourself. You are most assuredly intitled to your opinion. But when you as a woman, try to scripturally instruct me as a man, you are scipturally out of order. I can't help it if you do not wish to be subject to that, that is on you. I merely make the correct point, that if you want to use scripture to give your post authority, then you should first be subject to the authority of scripture. You have not been in your post. I have also shown you by the very definitions you posted, that not all homocide is murder. That is fact from your post. But because you have takern offence to me, and want to hold a grudge against me, you are the one who is calling me names, insted of repenting from your obvious errors. If you don't want to be called names, don't call names.

reply from: JaysonsMom

You calling names. (Not me, but still names)
You calling me a rude name.
Just plain rude.
Never have I given any indication that I am wrapped up in self-importance.
I posted NOTHING that would indicate I am prejudiced toward an unborn.
Condescending and rude.
Again, condescending and rude.
I didn't call you names. I talked about your behavior and your words.
**************************************************************
This isn't name calling; it's an observation. You rarely make a post without insulting someone or saying something extremely rude or belittling someone else. And saying that you assume isn't calling you a name.
This isn't name calling; it's an observation about the way you post and refuse to accept any opinion but your own.
See? I didn't call you "cruel" or "heartless". That's not my post.

reply from: faithman

You calling names. (Not me, but still names)
You calling me a rude name.
Just plain rude.
Never have I given any indication that I am wrapped up in self-importance.
I posted NOTHING that would indicate I am prejudiced toward an unborn.
Condescending and rude.
Again, condescending and rude.
I didn't call you names. I talked about your behavior and your words.
**************************************************************
This isn't name calling; it's an observation. You rarely make a post without insulting someone or saying something extremely rude or belittling someone else. And saying that you assume isn't calling you a name.
This isn't name calling; it's an observation about the way you post and refuse to accept any opinion but your own.
See? I didn't call you "cruel" or "heartless". That's not my post.
I never denied making fun of the willing ignorant. But you deny calling me names even though your posts are full of it. It is my "observation" that you are willingly stupid. Just like it is your "observation" that I am narrow minded. how ever you want to dress it up you are not quite as innocent as you would have us to believe. You are the one who posted the error that all killing is murder even though the very definitiions you posted proved this to be wrong, then haven't the humility to admit it while makeing the "observation" I am childish. My "observation" is that you are most assuredly willing ignorant and stupid to not accept fact when it is stareing you in the face.

reply from: JaysonsMom

It isn't wrong and I stand by my post. Ending someone's life IS murder, but, like I said before, what kind of murder depends on the law and the situation.

reply from: faithman

It isn't wrong and I stand by my post. Ending someone's life IS murder, but, like I said before, what kind of murder depends on the law and the situation.
YES!!! dumby. It is wrong by the definitions from your very post. Unlawful homocide is murder. Not all homocide is murder, no matter how much you want it to be. Definitions are not subject to your opinion. It is obvious that your opinion is not subject to truth either.

reply from: JaysonsMom

It isn't wrong. Homicide is STILL murder, but labeled according to the law and the situation.

reply from: faithman

Yes it is. Go back and read you own post. Not all homocide is defind as murder. Murder is unlawful homocide. Justifiable homocide is not, nor ever has been called murder. You lost your point but just can't admit it. That does make you self absorb, and only care about your opinion even though it is wrong.

reply from: faithman

It isn't wrong and I stand by my post. Ending someone's life IS murder, but, like I said before, what kind of murder depends on the law and the situation.
Just give it up. You're attempting to reason with an idiot... We're both just encouraging him and feeding his childish ego by even recognizing his existence...
I'm just going to log out and let him have his fun. There's nothing more of substance to which to respond at this time.

reply from: JaysonsMom

It isn't lawful to murder an abortionist, just because you think what they're doing is immoral. The original question asked about an abortionist and kids on a bus. The kids on the bus would be called justifiable. If you shoot an abortionist, it will be called murder.
I do see what you're saying, faithman, although your name calling isn't helping much. Have you ever explained something to someone you didn't agree with and not belittle them? If so, that's great. It would be nice to see it more often. Quoting scripture while simultaneously insulting people cancels out any good work you're trying to do.

reply from: Shiprahagain

I didn't ask if shooting an abortionist was lawful, I asked if it were moral? Do you believe that morals and legality always coincide?

reply from: JaysonsMom

Okay, so now we have two rude posters. I thought this was a discussion/debate forum. I am not an idiot and I'm not an ape. I made a mistake. I looked over my post again and I see where you're coming from, faithman. I appreciate your perserverance (sp?) but I don't appreciate being called names by you or CP.
Also, CP. "Him" "His"? The user name JaysonsMOM clearly indicates that I am female...

reply from: JaysonsMom

Probably not. I feel strongly about abortion and murder but I see I've clearly made some mistakes. I'll try to be more clear from now on. Sorry that I misquoted your question. I don't think it's moral to shoot an abortionist, no.

reply from: faithman

That is your "observation" and you are entitled to it. I didn't start the scripture quoting, you did. Yes, as it stands in america, stopping an abortionist with deadly force would be called murder. Legally abortion is not murder. If one feels their life is in eminant danger, or observes an innocent person in eminant danger, they are fully with in the law to use deadly force to stop it. That is by definition justifiable homocide, not murder. Now I know it is almost imposible for you to follow a logical train of thought, but give it a try. You must quit calling abortion murder , if you believe it is wrong to use deadly force to defend them. It is unfair to exstend protection to the born person, then condemn those who believe the womb child deserve the same protection. You must take the position that all protection of innocent life is murder and wrong, or understand that it is totally justifiable to defend all life with deadly force if nessisary. If you believe stopping abortionist with deadly force is wrong, then you agree with Planned Parenthood that the womb child is not a person, and deserves no consideration at all. You simply can not have it both ways.

reply from: faithman

Okay, so now we have two rude posters. I thought this was a discussion/debate forum. I am not an idiot and I'm not an ape. I made a mistake. I looked over my post again and I see where you're coming from, faithman. I appreciate your perserverance (sp?) but I don't appreciate being called names by you or CP.
Also, CP. "Him" "His"? The user name JaysonsMOM clearly indicates that I am female...
When are you simply going to use some of that christian forgiveness you keep talking about? You are willing to give killer skanks a free walk, but I get condemned merely because I enjoy making sport of falsehood? I have not condemned your "observations" about me, nor have I allowed it to keep me from engageing in this entertaining banter. Don't get upset simply because I am willing to spar with you to make you a better thinker and a more productive pro-lifer. Conflick is good, and the truth will stand thru the fire of adversity. I am merely trying to get you to understand that we should not take illogical positions that weaken pro-life in general. We should care less what pro-deathers think. We will not win them with reason. WE must defeat them at every turn. It is a fight!!! The sooner I can get you to understand that, the sooner you will be more effective in the struggle. I could care less if you like me. But if our little spatting will better prepare you for engageing the enemy, I have done my job. If I have a little too much fun at your exspence, grow a thicker skin, get over it, and lets fight for the innocent womb child so we can go on to other thing.

reply from: JaysonsMom

What difference does this make? I never claimed that you started the quoting.
How many abortionists have you used deadly force against?

reply from: faithman

What difference does this make? I never claimed that you started the quoting.
How many abortionists have you used deadly force against?
But you conveniantly left out your part in it. A little dishonest don't you think? I have personally not popped a baby killer. The point is, I can not logiclly condemn those who do, because it would deminush the personhood of the pre-born. It took the blood shed of the civil war to restore personhood to thoughs of african decent. I do pray with all my heart that abortion on demand ends peacefully. But I can not undermine pre-born personhood, by condemning those who protect them as they would any child.

reply from: JaysonsMom

Well said. Point taken.

reply from: faithman

Oh gosh!!! You are not going to fuss about it? BUMMER!!!

reply from: JaysonsMom

I've re-read your post and I have to say that I agree. Children have to be protected whether inside or outside the womb. While I wouldn't kill someone to get my message and beliefs across, I will continue to try and help the PL cause through non-violent means.

reply from: faithman

Not everyone is called to be a police man, soldier, and the like. Some folk do the dirty jobs so we don't have too. I am actively involved in the most peaceful means to end it. Primarily, the distribution of the live fiber optic Photos. I believe totally in the compassionate aproach with pre-abortion situations. We should be more involved in prevention. Education is the most important long term tactic. I understand the natural desire to reach out to the hurting, but I can not get over the hump of letting killer mom's of womb children walk, while the killers of the born go to jail. There has to be a fair administration of justice. If the killers of the born go to prison, so should killers of the pre-born. May be if in all this sorry about that boo hoo moments, truely repentent mom's would admit that, I could cut slack. All I have seen is excuses why it was nessisary to kill. Why can't they admit they are murderers, and deserve prison? In the mean time thousands died this very day. Long term tactics do nothing to protect the innocent from a horrible death. All we seem to be doing is haveing care net banquetts and life walks in the park while the babies die by the thousands. We would do much more than protest if it were thousands of school children being killed everyday. Either the womb child is a person worthy of the same protection as the born, or we must agree with Planned parenthood that they are non-person worthy of no consideration at all. We simply can not have it both ways. We can not honestly call abortion murder, then condemn those who take proper defensive action to stop murder. We will never put an end to it, as long as we keep playing this jeckal and hide game. We can not continue the retoric of "genocide", "infanticide", and "baby murder", and not take action that truely puts an end to such horible crimes. Until we purge the illogical thinking from our own ranks, there is absolutely no hope of stopping the slaughter.

reply from: JaysonsMom

I will continue to do all that I can for the cause.

reply from: JaysonsMom

Faithman, I owe you an apology. I've been thinking about this whole thread and realize that you were right all along. I'm not usually that dense! *faint* I'm not sure if I had a massive brain cramp or what, but geez.... Big forehead slap going on over here. I apologize for snapping at you and for anything I said that offended you.
I'm still going to try and help the women who abort see "the light", but hopefully they'll soon be behind bars while I'm attempting to help them. The unborn does deserve justice the same as a born child and I apologize if my posts made it seem that I felt they didn't.
Amy

reply from: faithman

Hey!! You were ernestly contending for what you believed. No offence taken, and no apologies required. I am all for compassion. But not at the expence of justice. I am actively involved in sending things to prisoners. It is my great hope for them to truely meet Christ, and have a life change so they can avoid prison in the future. I also can't blame you, for you have had that ole "pro-life" line drummed into your head,and you were merely repeating it. It is kinda a shame I am going to have to find something else to fuss with you about. It was just getting to be fun. Ya gotta get your jollies where you can in this horrible mess.

reply from: JaysonsMom

Thanks so much for understanding. How can I get involved with sending things to prisoners? I'd love to take that on. And I'm sure we'll find something to fight about! You and I are like bulls in a pen, and you just know we'll end up butting heads again!

reply from: faithman

I relish the thought!!!! don't go wonki on me, but you can get mailing addresses for jailed anti-abortionist on the Army Of God website. You don't have to agree with what the did, but they did give up their freedom for what they believe. Most are a strong witness, and really do enjoy getting materials for handing out. It might be enteresting to get their side of the story as well. You can also find Prison ministries to work thru on the net. It does pay to be safe though. Be sure you use another address other than your home street address. A PO box, or your church address would work. Be blessed.

reply from: carolemarie

So you would like every women who has had an abortion in the last 33 years to be rounded up and put in jail?

reply from: Shiprahagain

Carole, you usually can't be punished for doing something that was legal when you did it, except in cases of extreme human rights abuses such as Nazi crimes. For example, since slavery was made illegal, anyone found owning slaves is jailed, but ppl who owned slaves before the amendment outlawing it were not jailed.

reply from: JaysonsMom

I won't go wonki, I promise. I'll check that site and get busy sending some things. You're right; they did what they believe was right and they did it for the children. I'd be happy to send them materials and thanks for the tip about the address.

reply from: JaysonsMom

I'm wary of the site, as I stated in a different thread. I've looked the site over, not at length, but am aware that they are rather extreme. I will research it much more heavily before I get involved. I appreciate your comments. If I sent materials to them, it would be along with a letter stating how I feel about what they had done to get them where they are now. I'm enthusiastic about the prospect of helping, but I didn't mean to sound so gung-ho about an extremist group.

reply from: JaysonsMom

Thanks for the advice CP, I appreciate that and I will be careful!


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