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Sometimes the truth hurts, but you look

EXCELLENT Editorial from the Wilmington Ohio News Journal

by: yoda

Sometimes the truth hurts, but you look
KATIE WRIGHT
Sometimes the truth hurts. Often, people want to hide it because it is graphic, and violent. Sometimes, they even call the police to take it out of sight. When the Clinton County Sheriff's office was called to Rombach Avenue Tuesday evening, here is what they might have found: several tiny, dead bodies.
Small ribcages smashed. Arms and legs dismembered. Little hearts, quiet and still and exposed in the evening light. Hands, perfectly formed, still balled up in little fists as though they fought for life at the last moment. This is the reality of a legal first trimester abortion. This is the truth nobody wants to see.
Instead, the sheriff's office was called out because of some pictures.
full article: http://www.wnewsj.com/main.asp?SectionID=42&SubSectionID=274&ArticleID=154769&TM=50433.89

reply from: MoonLady

Oh, so they were PHOTOS, not actual bodies. And allegedly from a "first trimester abortion", but apparently NOT shown at actual size. Instead they were magnified into poster-size photos. So, what is the actual size of a first-trimester fetus?
According to the Department of Gynecology at the University of Copenhagen, the total volume of uterine contents (not just the fetus but the placenta and amniotic fluid as well) is about 1 Tablespoon in the seventh to eight week, 1.6 Tablespoons in the ninth to tenth week, and 2.4 tablespoons in the eleventh to twelfth week.
Fetal weight itself ranges from less than 0.2 inches (a pinhead) in the fourth week to 2.4 inches (smaller than a large Bic lighter) in the tenth week. Therefore, a seven-week fetus is just over an inch long and has, of course, only the rudimentary beginnings of its brain and central nervous system. It knows nothing, feels nothing and cannot survive outside the womb.
I will continue to be against later-term abortions (past 18 weeks, just to be safe) except in the most extreme of cases (fatal deformities or severe threat the the life of the mother). I think second-trimester abortions should also be severely limited. But I cannot reject first-trimester abortions completely. There are times when they are the best answer for the mother - and yes, even for the unborn child.

reply from: pookiy1980

Not to put you on the spot but what conditions would cause a threat to a woman's life to where she would need an abortion? (speaking of late terms)
The only illness so far where termination of the preg. is listed as the treatment is a ectopic preg.
Edit: Quotes

reply from: pookiy1980

So personally I do not like looking at these kinds of pix. I know what abortion does without having to see pix. I know some people like using the pix as a tool exc. but personally I would not want to drive by some huge poster of aborted babies. I also would not want my young kids to see something like this. Yes it is the truth of what abortion looks like but geez you do not see people with dead (adult/toddler/elderly) people being showed around town to discurage murder do we?
"The pictures only portray what abortion really is, what everyone wants to believe it isn't: a violent end to life."
Yes and so is murder shooting someone int he head and their brains are spewed on a wall yet we as a society do not show pix like this.
Showing pix of 1st trimester abortions should show the reality of what it is. If it is only a table spoon of all content show that, if it has pin point fingers show it. Abortion is messed up enough were we don't have to make it explicid I mean it already is.
IDK it's just my opinion, and I know at the clinic some pix may work for some. I know a clinic where my friend is a SWC they do not hold up posters and such. They talk with the woman, offer writen info exc, then if they feel they are not getting through they show a small pix of an aborted baby. She sia dthe pix is on a small card but it shows them beyond the writen info what abortion is. I also think that depending on how far along a woman is should intail what pix they are shown. Do not show a pix of a 3rd trimester fully developed baby to a 5week woman, I feel like that is leading to false info...show her a pix of what her baby a 5week looks like.

reply from: AshMarie88

Maybe YOU don't need to look at the pics, but the people that claim the photos are fake are still in DENIAL of what abortion really is and DOES. That is why we show the photos, because not everyone knows the exact truth and knows exactly what happens in an abortion!
People will tell you that murdering the born is wrong, but will those same people (pro-choicers or those uneducated and not taught about abortion) tell you that abortion is wrong too? No.

reply from: AshMarie88

No one shows 3rd trimester babies and calls them 5 week old babies, that's insane. Where do you get your info from?

reply from: pookiy1980

I agree but in order to show a woman who is going to abort her 5week baby needs to see what her baby looks like right? We want to mandate a woman to see an ultrasound before she has an abortion right? So show her pix of what an aborted 5week would look like. Just because it is not as elaborate as the late terms does not make it any less real.
Showing them a pix of a late term would not be an accurate pix of what she is doing.
Yes the late term is a pix of abortion but a woman is not going to relate to a pix of a baby 8months older then hers.

reply from: yoda

I've never seen a "fake" photo of an aborted baby, and I can't think of any reason to fake one. With 4,000 babies being killed every day, there are bound to be plenty of chances to take them.
On the other hand, showing a woman a photo of a 5 year old would not be an accurate picture of what her newborn looks like, but the principle of killing that child would remain the same, would it not? Or do you agree with those who say that an unborn baby and a born baby are different animals?

reply from: yoda

When your audience is many feet or yards away, what would be the point of making the photos life size? Who could see them at that distance? Or do you prefer that they not see them? And why do you say "allegedly"? Are you once again accusing a prolifer of lying simply because they are prolife?
So you measure the moral right to life according to inches and ounces? That's your moral yardstick? So a 7 foot, 350 pound man would have a lot more right to life than you, right?
We're not debating the mother's moral right to life, or her moral right to protect her life. That's a given, even though you proaborts keep rehashing it over and over and over.
We're debating the other 94% of abortions in which a healthy mother aborts a healthy baby. And yes, we know you want to keep abortion legal so every mother can decide for herself if paying for a vacation in Hawaii justifies killing her baby or not. We understand that is your position.

reply from: yoda

Did you even read the article?
Is murder perfectly legal? Is there a need to make it illegal to protect innocent lives? Is your squeamishness at the sight of a butchered baby more important to avoid than the possibility of saving a baby's life?
What is your priority, saving babies or avoiding personal discomfort?

reply from: pookiy1980

I've never seen a "fake" photo of an aborted baby, and I can't think of any reason to fake one. With 4,000 babies being killed every day, there are bound to be plenty of chances to take them.
Agreed, and I am not discussing "fake pix"
Correct and showing a woman a pix of a late term aborted baby would not be an accurate pix of her 5week aborted baby. Why take it to the extreme? If killing a 5week is just as bad as killing a 7month then why show the 7month instead? Abortion alone does not need "help" making it's case that it is wrong, killing a 5week and a 7month is wrong either way. Why not stick with showing her exactly what is inside her?? Why twist it to show her a 7month? Do people think that showing the woman a 5week abortion is not going to be as effective? When we show a woman a pix saw from a 3d US we show them a pix of a baby the same age as theirs right? We do not show them some full term baby. Why? because that is not where she is.
This is kinda like when we show pix for choosing life or adoption, I am all for it but geez all the pix show these smiling kids, playing and giving kisses...show some kids with runny noses, or some of the kids from "super nanny" beating their parents. Show some pix of the teens smoking or drinking behind their parents back...would these pix stop people from choosing life or adoption? No, guess we like the pretty pix when it comes to this....

Nope. You?
Again I ask why do we not walk around gang neighborhoods with posters of murdered kids and elderly? We want to stop (postborn) murder right?

reply from: AshMarie88

It's true what they say... sometimes the truth hurts.
And people are so unwilling to accept the truth, they still lie about it and go into complete denial that the truth is, well, the truth.
If you believe that abortion photos are fake, you're downright denying that abortion is real.
If you have the guts to support the act itself, you better have the guts to support the photos that show what abortion itself does and what it looks like after as well. Don't keep that in the dark, don't keep denying it, accept it for what it truely is. You should really get used to the photos if you support the act itself. Don't shield yourself away from them.
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/AbortionPictures/09_weeks-03.jpg is what happens in an abortion, folks.
So is http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/AbortionPictures/08_weeks-08.jpg.
People don't like looking at the pics, and that's fine. Neither do I. I hate looking at them, I hate looking at them even if I have to gather them for someone else.
They're disgusting, they're bloody, they're terrible - But that's what abortion is.

reply from: yoda

I think that's the best way, but the point I was making is that it isn't that big of a deal. If someone makes an occasional mistake, it's not like they were showing her a photo of a seal cub or a kitten....... it's still a gestating human being. Babies are STILL BABIES....... whether they are 5 weeks old or 7 months old, they are STILL HUMAN BABIES!
Again, I ask you if you do not realize that murder is illegal, and no legislative action is needed to punish murderers. And you still do not see the difference?

reply from: pookiy1980

I think that's the best way, but the point I was making is that it isn't that big of a deal. If someone makes an occasional mistake, it's not like they were showing her a photo of a seal cub or a kitten.......
I am not talking about mistakes, when someone says abortion the automatic pix is one of a late term baby...(or those that Ash posted I will adress) I understand you go to these clinics to save lifes right? Are the (if any) pix show of late terms or those if the majority of abortions..1st trimester? If I a not mistaken a 9week is only 2.3cm in length....

I agree they are all babies and I think we can agree 1st trimesters are just as wrong as a 3rd trimester. Showing a 9week preg. woman a pix of a late term abortion and saying "this is what you are going to do to your baby!" is twisted.
Abortion is bad enough without having to add any sorts of twists.
Murdering is the same either way I am not dening this. But that was not my question.

reply from: abc123

Originally posted by: pookiy1980
Abortion alone does not need "help" making it's case that it is wrong, killing a 5week and a 7month is wrong either way. Why not stick with showing her exactly what is inside her??
Pookiy1980:
Regarding the pictures, a majority of the women going to a clinic have no idea what an aborted fetus looks like. Places like PP and other pro-aborts tell them it is a blob of tissue. When they can actually see that their baby has arms and legs and they find out the truth of what abortion is the pictures can be very persuasive in getting them to possibly change their mind. Many of the women's hearts are already hardened when they get to the point of going to the abortion mill that nothing is going to change their mind. At that point they have the same heart as the gunman at VT (Cho) or anyone else who could/would commit murder. Nothing is going to stop them, and since it is legal in our country; most people are more concerned with their bank accounts and what kind of car they drive and themselves than anyone else. When holding a sign with an aborted baby on it you will get good and bad responses from passer byers. Some will even stop to say "how can you show that" in response you can tell them, what is more disturbing that I am holding this sign or that they are actually doing this in that building right there? Our society has become accustomed to the practice of abortion in our country.
Originally posted by: pookiy1980
Again I ask why do we not walk around gang neighborhoods with posters of murdered kids and elderly? We want to stop (postborn) murder right?
An abortion clinic is the only place in America that I know of that we are 100% sure that a murder is occurring in a particular location. Oh, and in these places it is legal for some reason. Our culture needs to focus on the hearts of our future generations and our current generation and stop focusing on the me, me, me and more of me attitudes that most Americans have these days.

reply from: MoonLady

"And yes, we know you want to keep abortion legal so every mother can decide for herself if paying for a vacation in Hawaii justifies killing her baby or not. We understand that is your position."
A vacation in Hawaii??? Is that REALLY why you think women abort???? If so, you have obviously NEVER spoken to a women who was THINKING of aborting or who already had.
What sad idiotic thinking.

reply from: pookiy1980

Re: Ash pix
See what I mean? I only can speak for myself and yes I totally believe abortion is "real" I think a baby is being killed during an abortion. I know what the procedure involves exc. But I do not need pix like these to "prove" it. I am hoping the pix posted are "simulations" you know medical models, cause the pix do not match.
I know I will get criticized for pointing this out but people need to open your eyes!
The second pix is of a 8week? A 8week is 3cm....the width of the pencil is a hair over 3cm now compare it to the baby it's head alone is bigger then 3cm.
and the first? a real dime is about 2cm and the one in the pix is about 2.5cm a baby at 9weeks is 2.3cm
But hey if you can use this to twist someone's mind fine, if you do not think telling them what an abortion is will not work them use em. If you do not think showing them an accurate (to scale) pix of what is growing inside them will inform them then fine.
While you're at it show a 9week woman a pix of a 35week baby and tell her this is what your baby looks like

reply from: pookiy1980

I totally understand we want to show them pix of their baby ..like the US van does....and if we want to show them pix of abortion then why not show them pix of a baby who was aborted at the same gestation as they are? I would think they could relate better see the US see a moving baby with arms and legs then show them a realpix of a baby at the same age..alive and dead contrast. I understand the pix can save lives.
Yes and so many of the pix on the posters are pix of late terms and LA are not even legal in all states, so holding up a sign with a late term at a clinic where it is illegal kinda does not make since. I already know what abortion does and you know what it does, so do you want to see it while driving down the street? Shouldn't these pix be shown to the people who support abortion why make all people look at something they already know exists? What about the woman who go to these clinics for reasons other then abortion? Maybe there are more then one MD in an office. One lady is going to get a pap done and she has to see a pix that makes her ill.....and why always target the clinics? what about hospitals? I know elective abortions happen at hospitals yet I have never seen protesters there.
Originally posted by: pookiy1980
Again I ask why do we not walk around gang neighborhoods with posters of murdered kids and elderly? We want to stop (postborn) murder right?
Our culture needs to focus on the hearts of our future generations and our current generation and stop focusing on the me, me, me and more of me attitudes that most Americans have these days.
We do but we also need to protect the innocent people adults and children that are being killed, women who are being raped and killed these people are just as important as the preborn right?..but no we do not stand on the corner holding these pix....

reply from: pookiy1980

OOPS!
So where does Hawaii come into play? I mean a woman will give you an excuse for an abortion ones many would think are unthinkable....career, body image, no money exc. so why make up something about a vacation? Again is the truth not bad enough where we have to take it to the extreme??
Next I will be reading about how a woman who aborts HATES kids!! She did not want to keep hers yes, but geezs she may have 3 but I would doubt she hates em!
Stick with the given truth the PL has enough I am sure every PL person thinks it is selfish and wrong for a woman to abort cause she does not want to get streatch marks use that one instead of making up something up.

reply from: MoonLady

"OOPS!
So where does Hawaii come into play?"
Yodavater seems to think it's a common reason for abortion, or at least that's what he posted.
"I mean a woman will give you an excuse for an abortion ones many would think are unthinkable....career, body image, no money exc. so why make up something about a vacation? Again is the truth not bad enough where we have to take it to the extreme??"
As I said, Yodavater came up with that gem. But have you REALLY talked to women who aborted because of her "body image?" "Career" is a funny PL way of saying "if I have a baby, I'll lose my job" or "I'm too poor to support myself - how am I going to support a baby too?"
"Next I will be reading about how a woman who aborts HATES kids!! She did not want to keep hers yes, but geezs she may have 3 but I would doubt she hates em!"
Trust me, some women DO hate kids, others simply DO NOT want to have children. The right thing to do is to give them up for adoption, but you have to go through pregnancy and childbirth first - something not all women are willing and/or able to do for a number of reasons.
"Stick with the given truth the PL has enough I am sure every PL person thinks it is selfish and wrong for a woman to abort cause she does not want to get streatch marks use that one instead of making up something up. "
I doubt that ANY woman has ever aborted because she didn't want stretch marks. Sorry, but the reasons are not nearly as casual and shallow as the PLM would like us to believe. Go to sites where women talk about their abortions and read their stories. No fur coats, new cars or trips to Hawaii there, I promise you.

reply from: pookiy1980

Personally I have only read reasons why woman have abortions and some woman will abmit they care about the way they look and do not want to "get fat" or "streatch marks" "saggy boobs" exc.
"Stick with the given truth the PL has enough I am sure every PL person thinks it is selfish and wrong for a woman to abort cause she does not want to get streatch marks use that one instead of making up something up. "
Sorry, but the reasons are not nearly as casual and shallow as the PLM would like us to believe. Go to sites where women talk about their abortions and read their stories. No fur coats, new cars or trips to Hawaii there, I promise you.
My point was why blow something to the extreme when there are already reasons woman are giving. Many woman are not ashamed of aborting and will tell you point blank why they did. No need to make up stuff.....
Oh did you have time to look over my question about late terms and "life of the woman" at the beg. of this topic...I can not find anyone willing to converse about this...

reply from: yoda

Did I say ALL women abort for that reason? Some of them do abort for reasons very much like that, however. So my question, really, is do you still support a "woman's right to choose" in the first trimester if that IS her reason for choosing to abort?

reply from: yoda

What kind of pencils are you using? 3cm equals 1.2 inches...... that's a pretty big pencil! A typical pencil is 1/4th of an inch!
No, a real dime is 1.7 cm....... are you using Canadian dimes?
What makes you such an expert on the size of aborted babies? Are you not aware that mashing and tearing a baby apart might change it's size just a bit? And that different babies grow and different rates?
Why don't you go out and mangle a few babies, measure them, and then get back to us?

reply from: pookiy1980

Did I say ALL women abort for that reason? Some of them do abort for reasons very much like that, however. So my question, really, is do you still support a "woman's right to choose" in the first trimester if that IS her reason for choosing to abort?
As we have already seen on this site alone that some who support a woman's right to choose support it regardless of the reason.

reply from: yoda

Great idea!
When are you going to bring us some "real pix" so we can update ours?
Really, if you're going to trash other people's efforts, how about showing us the "REAL ONES"?

reply from: yoda

Nothing was made up. I have read about women who give exactly that reason for having an abortion. Why do you always assume prolifers are lying? Do you hate us all?
So you don't think there are any proaborts who hate kids? Or any women who abort for that reason? Have you been under a rock for long?

reply from: yoda

Do you enjoy lying? Or is it just a habit? Please, quote my EXACT words where I said "common" reason, okay?
How about "It may hurt my chances of getting a promotion, even if I have it and give it to you to raise"? Go ahead, tell me that no woman ever said that.......

reply from: pookiy1980

Nothing was made up. I have read about women who give exactly that reason for having an abortion. Why do you always assume prolifers are lying? Do you hate us all?
Lying no, paranoid and always quick to assume things yes. Why take it to the extreme? What is it not bad enought when a woman tell you "I am aborting cause I can not afford a kid" To me that is enough.....again the paranoia sit in.....
Why can you not accept that a simple reason "I dont want a kid" is not bad enough???
I did not say that. But this is again some extreme some PL use. Yes I am sure there are plenty of women who abort for that reason, but that would not be good enough reason for some of you PL'rs right?
What would you say about the woman I described above? One who aborts with 3 kids she loves, hey she aborted one does that mean she HATEs kids??

reply from: pookiy1980

Great idea!
When are you going to bring us some "real pix" so we can update ours?
Real pix being one of the same gestation of the woman deciding on abortion. I do not go around taking pix of aborted babies sorry. Plus ya know if I did have some pix from a medical institute first thing I would read is "I don't beleve them". Why is it the only pix of aborted babys online are those on PL sites? The only ones really I have seen off the PL sites are the ones showing babies who were aborted for medical reasons http://medgen.genetics.utah.edu/photographs/pages/neural_tube_defects.htm they too would not be acceptable to show a 1st trimester woman deciding on abortion.

reply from: yoda

"Taking it to the extreme" is also called "cutting to the chase", or "getting to the bottom line". When probing the depths of someone's depravity, it saves time to go directly to the most depraved example. Then you know that everything in between is also a part of that person's depravity.
What ever do you mean, not good enough for "some of us PL'rs"? No reason is "good enough" for an elective abortion!
Apparently, she did not love one of them very much........ the one she killed. I'm of the opinion that any woman who would electively kill her own child doesn't have much love to give, even for the ones she doesn't kill...... otherwise her heart would not have allowed her to kill her baby.

reply from: yoda

Real pix being one of the same gestation of the woman deciding on abortion. I do not go around taking pix of aborted babies sorry.
"Sorry"? You pitch a hissy-fit, accusing us of posting "false pictures", and then say "sorry, I don't have any"? Hey, if you aren't going to at least TELL US where they are......... WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE A WORD YOU SAY????
We've been through this a dozen times or more with proaborts..... they cry "fake, fake!", and then say they don't have any "real ones". It's always the same....... trash ours, then say your don't have any of your own, or know where they are. And they never, ever provide any documentation of the "fakery". Well, do I have to tell you what you can do with your "fake" opinion?
HOW would you know why they were aborted?
Here are some great sites: http://www.lifedynamics.com/ http://www.abortionno.com http://www.abortiontv.com
On that second one, you can even watch an abortion being done! So when the baby comes out, you can't say "fake"!

reply from: pookiy1980

I understand what you are saying and I am trying to come up with a parallel on the point I am trying to make and well as you see it's not happening.
Maybe this example will help. My friend is doing an abortion presentation and she was talking about a hysterectomy abortion she said " they remove the baby and set it in a corner all alone to die" The PC always accuse the Pl of playing emotion on abortion and yeah reading this statement I agree. If I read the fact " they remove the baby set it aside and let it die" that tells me the point just as clear if not clearer then adding in "alone in a corner exc." Personally I think it is bad enough to take it out and "let it die" so why add in the extra. The facts speak for themselfs the facts are grusome enough without having to add anything personal.

So why add extra extreme things? If no reason is good enough why mention that one person who 10yrs ago wanted to abort so she could go to Hawaii? Why not mention all the woman who abort cause they do not have $$ to support them or do not want kids.

reply from: AshMarie88

At 8 weeks, the baby is an inch long. At 9, it's a little over an inch.
I can see what you mean about the pencil, but still, read fetal development itself and compare the timeline on the dead baby to development timeline. It's VERY similar.

reply from: pookiy1980

Nope I refrained from saying they were fake I was just pointing out the baby shown is way off proportion maybe they should not place a pencil or dime next to the fetus?? I mean you seem like an smart person so can you explain to the "hissy-fitter" why the pix shows incorrect scale? The head is bigger then what the whole body should be....hey maybe it was just a mistake right?
Well talk to them cause I didnot say this was fake just questioning the incorrect scaling..again oops a mistake. No I do not have any but that does not mean anything either. You can show someone a pix of big foot and they can say it is a fake yet they would not have "a real pix" (please do not tell me not to compair a fetus to big foot it is the concept)
I guess one could eliminate the "fakery" by explaining why this baby's head is bigger then the whole body should be.
I do not care where you tell me to take my rational opinion, I am not the one who is going to be looking at this pix and deciding on rather or not to abort. Just think of how many more babys could be saved if we actually used pix of babys the actual size of the pregnant woman..wouldn;t that be worth the effort?
HOW would you know why they were aborted?
Here are some great sites: http://www.lifedynamics.com/ http://www.abortionno.com http://www.abortiontv.com
On that second one, you can even watch an abortion being done! So when the baby comes out, you can't say "fake"!
Actually soooo many PC people have made plenty of claims of this vid being fake along with the silent screem, I have seen em both and and honestly do not care about looking at them again, fake or not I don't wanna see it. Reading about the procedure is enough for me.

reply from: pookiy1980

I was looking at http://www.babycenter.com/general/1290794.htmland this is where I got my info....
Like I was explaining to yoda I am not saying the pix is fake but I just do not understand the sizing it is very off. Maybe if they took off the pencil and dime one could assume it is just an enlarged pix which I would understand.

reply from: AshMarie88

I was looking at http://www.babycenter.com/general/1290794.htmland this is where I got my info....
Like I was explaining to yoda I am not saying the pix is fake but I just do not understand the sizing it is very off. Maybe if they took off the pencil and dime one could assume it is just an enlarged pix which I would understand.
Wanna look at http://health.discovery.com/centers/pregnancy/americanbaby/fetaldevelopment.html??

reply from: yoda

You know, not everyone is like you, pookiy! There are folks for whom words paint a picture, and they express their emotions with those word pictures. Why should everyone be curt and clinical like you?

reply from: yoda

Maybe because your scale was totally wrong? Did you not read my post on that? You were rambling on about a 3cm wide pencil, which would be one and one half inches wide..... what a whopper of a pencil!
Yes it does. It means you have nothing to offer to replace what you are trying to tear down. If you're going to pretend to be an "expert", come up with some documentation.
NO KIDDING??? REALLLLLLY??? Proaborts have called PL stuff "fake"???? OMG! OMG!!
Why on earth do you bother to tell us that? Don't you think we hear enough of their biased BS?

reply from: yoda

Exactly. Just as pictures are an important part of the debate about the morality of abortion, without which any abortion discussion is pointless.

reply from: holopaw

I agree but in order to show a woman who is going to abort her 5week baby needs to see what her baby looks like right? We want to mandate a woman to see an ultrasound before she has an abortion right? So show her pix of what an aborted 5week would look like. Just because it is not as elaborate as the late terms does not make it any less real.
Showing them a pix of a late term would not be an accurate pix of what she is doing.
Yes the late term is a pix of abortion but a woman is not going to relate to a pix of a baby 8months older then hers.
If the woman is going to look at her own ultrasound, why would there be a need to show her a picture?

reply from: holopaw

Did I say ALL women abort for that reason? Some of them do abort for reasons very much like that, however. So my question, really, is do you still support a "woman's right to choose" in the first trimester if that IS her reason for choosing to abort?
There have been nearly 49 million abortions in our country. Just as people have been killed over something as silly as shoes. Children have died because it would ruin the mom's look in her Wedding dress, she thought the father was ugly, and many other ridiculous reasons. All reasons stink, some just are more heartbreaking than others.

reply from: MoonLady

Pooky - "Not to put you on the spot but what conditions would cause a threat to a woman's life to where she would need an abortion? (speaking of late terms)
The only illness so far where termination of the preg. is listed as the treatment is a ectopic preg."
Actually, removal of an ectopic pregnancy is NOT an abortion at all. The baby is outside the womb, stuck in the Fallopian tube and will kill the woman if not removed. There is absolutely NO chance of carrying an ectopic pregnancy to viability.
Conditions which can endanger a woman's life to the point where abortion may be the best option are numerous and include pre-eclampsia, edema, hypertension, eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death), gestational diabetes, placenta previa, anemia (which can be life-threatening), thrombocytopenic purpura, embolism (blood clots),
diastasis recti, mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication), serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis), hemorrhage, aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures), severe post-partum depression and psychosis.
Also, research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors. Research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy.
Research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease.

Less common (but serious) complications:
peripartum cardiomyopathy
cardiopulmonary arrest
magnesium toxicity
severe hypoxemia/acidosis
massive embolism
increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
molar pregnancy
gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
malignant arrhythmia
circulatory collapse
placental abruption
obstetric fistula
future infertility
permanent disability
All pregnant women, by virtue of their pregnant status, face some level of maternal risk. Data suggest that around 40% of all pregnant women have some complication.
About 15% have complications that are potentially life-threatening.

reply from: MoonLady

Yodavater - "Did I say ALL women abort for that reason? Some of them do abort for reasons very much like that, however. So my question, really, is do you still support a "woman's right to choose" in the first trimester if that IS her reason for choosing to abort?"
I believe that any woman who chooses abortion so that she can take a trip to Hawaii, not get stretch marks, avoid sagging boobs or any other cosmetic or EXTREMELY selfish reason probably doesn't deserve to have a child! It seems to me that those women would make LOUSY mothers.
Fortunately, they are a very small minority. And yes, I still support a woman's right to choose early abortion for ANY reason - but I strongly disapprove of the few women who abort for the reasons such as those listed above. They should have themselves sterilized so that they can avoid pregnancy completely.

reply from: MoonLady

To settle the centimeters to inches conversion, I used an online converter. Three (3) centimeters = 1.181 inches - far larger than a pencil.

reply from: yoda

Even hear of ADOPTION? Or would that take all the "fun" out of abortion for you?
That's what I thought...... you go out of your way to lie about what I said and try to ridicule me falsely, and then you finally agree with what I said.
I'm sure the tourist bureaus that sell tickets to Hawaii will love you for that. But a lot of babies will die because of people like you.

reply from: yoda

Indeed, but pookie has fallen silent on that subject, since her last hissy-fit, so I suppose we'll never know where she got that enormous pencil.

reply from: pookiy1980

You know, not everyone is like you, pookiy! There are folks for whom words paint a picture, and they express their emotions with those word pictures. Why should everyone be curt and clinical like you?
I guess when you play the whole emotion thing rather then the dirty facts then the PL is doing exactly what the PC accuses em of doing. Not that the PL is here to defend their tacticts or anything...do you not think that hearing " they remove the baby set it aside and let it die" is not bad in it's self??
My friend has never been in a room where an abortion is being done. She does not know (other that what people say) what they do with the fetus at that time. We have read many times about nurses who feel compassion about a born (supposed to be aborted) baby and the nurse takes the baby and cuddles it and what not until it dies so the baby will not "die alone".
The facts speaks for themselfs.

reply from: pookiy1980

My point exactly this is something the person creating these pix should have took into concideration.

reply from: pookiy1980

Maybe because your scale was totally wrong? Did you not read my post on that? You were rambling on about a 3cm wide pencil, which would be one and one half inches wide..... what a whopper of a pencil!
No I am not the creater of this pix!
Ok I will ask my office mate what she thinks and that will be my "source". Seriously all the pix the PL show are all on PL sites, so I will ask my PC office mate what she thinks same difference. Again I am not saying the pix are fakes...I was simply stating that a woman should be shown a pix of what her fetus looks like when she is deciding on abortion. You know the little babies the SWC have? Those are perfect!! They show the correct size of what the woman is carrying she can then relate to what is growing in her.
And I can not post so I know I will hear the "I don't believe you" blabla but a patient of mine who had an abortion at 14weeks there is a pix I saw on her Med record you can ID some parts, they have a little I guess ruler they use for autopsy below it where the mD's can see the sive exc.
LOL! I hear biased BS on both sides!! the links you posted a few comments above were all biased likewise the pix ash posted....lets see some unbiased info

reply from: pookiy1980

Exactly. Just as pictures are an important part of the debate about the morality of abortion, without which any abortion discussion is pointless.
You do not drive down the street by the projects and see people holding up signs of murdered or rape victims.

reply from: pookiy1980

I agree but in order to show a woman who is going to abort her 5week baby needs to see what her baby looks like right? We want to mandate a woman to see an ultrasound before she has an abortion right? So show her pix of what an aborted 5week would look like. Just because it is not as elaborate as the late terms does not make it any less real.
Showing them a pix of a late term would not be an accurate pix of what she is doing.
Yes the late term is a pix of abortion but a woman is not going to relate to a pix of a baby 8months older then hers.
If the woman is going to look at her own ultrasound, why would there be a need to show her a picture?
I think the SWC's want her to see what her baby will look like after the abortion. Even though the pix is blown up on some posters bigger then an adult they want to show them this "after pix"

reply from: pookiy1980

Indeed, but pookie has fallen silent on that subject, since her last hissy-fit, so I suppose we'll never know where she got that enormous pencil.
silent?? off work guess what I did saved a family's dog and 2 rooms of their house during a fire..... What were you doing? Oh yeah...
The cm inch conversion was not in question nor was the "realness" of the pix just the scale.
Where I got the pencil? IDK ask the creator of the pix ask them where they also got that dime!!
With your sarcasm I bet you piss off many women who you try to stop from aborting. I can see it now "this is what your baby will look like after abortion" *points to the pencil and dime pix... Those poor babys!!
If the woman are stupid enough to not know what abortion is without having to see the pix or talk to you then they would be just as stupid to think they have a 5inch 9week baby inside them or is this what you want them to believe?

reply from: yoda

The "whole emotion thing"? Do I take it correctly that you disdain all emotions as "somehow inferior"?
Very well then, how about patriotism? How about kindness? How about compassion? How about about a love of honesty?
ALL THOSE ARE EMOTIONS......... may we assume you disdain all of them?

reply from: yoda

HA! So you will not even admit that YOU were in error!
Your "scale" was wildly off, and yet you had your little hissy-fit anyway!

reply from: yoda

No, you're the one who said a pencil was OVER AN INCH WIDE!! Ready to admit your error YET?
NO, NO, NO!
We want "REAL" PICS OF ABORTED BABIES, NOT OPINIONS!!

reply from: yoda

Forgive the all caps and exclamation marks, but you just don't seem to be reading my posts at all.......
IS MURDER AND RAPE ILLEGAL OR NOT????? IS THERE AN ONGOING DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER TO OUTLAW MURDER AND RAPE????

reply from: yoda

Pookiy, dearest, how can I say this without sounding sarcastic.......... the "cm to inch converstion" IS THE SCALE!!
DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT "SCALE" IS????

reply from: MoonLady

Yodavater - "Even hear of ADOPTION? Or would that take all the "fun" out of abortion for you?"
I'm a very strong supporter of adoption and believe it to be the best way to deal with an unwanted pregnancy, as long as the pregnancy and birth will not endanger the mother.
If you believe that ANYONE sees "fun" in abortion, you are one sick man.

reply from: yoda

Then why did you say "It seems to me that those women would make LOUSY mothers", and not even MENTION adoption?
WHAT point was that supposed to make? You seemed to be saying that IF they would be such LOUSY mothers, their unborn babies ought not be born..........
Was that not the point you were trying to make....... OR WHAT???

reply from: MoonLady

I have supported ADOPTION more than once on this board as the BEST way to deal with unwanted pregnancies. Must I repeat it in every post?
The problem is getting a woman who does not want to (for various reasons) go through pregnancy and childbirth to put aside her concern for herself and birthe the baby in order to give it up for adoption. Pregnancy is NOT 100% guaranteed to be safe. It has many side effects and can actually kill women. We as a nation cannot FORCE women to give birth for the sole purpose of providing babies for other people.

reply from: pookiy1980

The "whole emotion thing"? Do I take it correctly that you disdain all emotions as "somehow inferior"?
Very well then, how about patriotism? How about kindness? How about compassion? How about about a love of honesty?
ALL THOSE ARE EMOTIONS......... may we assume you disdain all of them?
Simple answer give the facts to me they are horrible enough. You telling me the thousands of babys being killed daily is enough to open my ears, you teeling me that viable babys are often cut up inside the mother and removed is horrible enough, you telling me how a baby will "burn alive" after saline/na induction is enough

reply from: pookiy1980

HA! So you will not even admit that YOU were in error!
Your "scale" was wildly off, and yet you had your little hissy-fit anyway!
No not my scale the creator of the pix, get it right!
Explain how a normal dine can be 3/4inch and the one on the pix can be 1inch...the fetus is 5in (with the 1inch scale) so for every 1inch it is really 3/4inch wouldn't that make the fetus in the pix about 3 3/4 inch?
Please correct me if I am wrong...
You say anyone who disagrees with you or who has a point other then what you think is right a "hissy-fitter" LOL!

reply from: pookiy1980

My goodness yes in the stupid pix it is that big I never said a real one was that big!
NO, NO, NO!
We want "REAL" PICS OF ABORTED BABIES, NOT OPINIONS!!
Well all you can provide to me is biased opinions of pix or whatever you want to call them so why is it that your opinions are right yet others arn't??
Plus like I said I have one but that is not something I can share.

reply from: pookiy1980

Pookiy, , how can I say this without sounding sarcastic.......... the "cm to inch converstion" IS THE SCALE!!
DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT "SCALE" IS????
WT*??? I started with discussing things in cm form then everyone else pitched in that a cm is so many inches exc. So I started discussing this in in to be on the same page as you all.
So inch to cm is not scale it is a conversion like lb to kg, cup to ounce.....
The scale is saying for every 5inch it is really 1inch so if something was measuring 20inches it would be 4inches....have you never seen this on a map? distance is used you can use the scale on a map to estimate how far one city to another is.....
You can also see scale used in model trains, or cars.....

reply from: pookiy1980

You know when I first came into the light and really started wanting to learn about abortion/PL/PC exc. I was very upset when women would use the reason for abortion just because they don't want kids.... I can not have them myself and it hurts me so much to know there are women who are what I call blessed to be able to have kids then turn around and abort them. So I was expressing this to a PC friend of mine and she told me she and no other woman is a "babymaker" why should she go through a preg. just so I can have a baby? Then she elaborted on "forcing" a woman to birth a child, with the picture of how they would force slaves or others into things they did not want to do, including Chinese woman being forced to abort their wanted female babies.
So while I am not for forcing people to do things they don't want I am for saving someone from distroying another. I don't know now if this even goes along with your comment Moon I just got a bit emotional when I read it no disrespect to you or anyone else here for that...I know I will probably be accused of having a hissy fit again and will rpobably kick myself in the butt for opening up about myself this much....

reply from: pookiy1980

Moon thank you for your time on the list of illnesses.
I was going to ask how do they usually abort a viable baby when the woman has one of these illnesses?
Over lunch I went to a confrence and it was on "pregnency and acute renal failure" The MD discussed about pre-elampsia and the treatment being if the baby is >35weeks to deliver and she said nothing about before this age. So after the confrence I talked to her about this. She said they would treat the woman with appropriate meds, for BP seizures exc. I asked her what about the baby? I said there are more advancements now where babys are born before 35weeks and are ok. She agreed and said it would depend on the patient, obgyn and the kidney md. She said that many times the kidney failure will cause fetal death anyway which can cause the woman more issues so often the preg. is aborted.
What kind of bothered me while we were having question and answer during the lecture one MD was discussing the maternal health and "now that our hands are tied with PBA..." PBA?? I thought that was not medical??? and hands are tied?? Are there not other options for LTA's???

reply from: yoda

Do we as a nation FORCE women (and men) not to kill their born children that they are planning to give up for adoption?
We as a nation can protect all innocent human life with our laws, if we have the will to do so.

reply from: yoda

How long have we been telling people the "facts" without photos and descriptions? About 33 years, right?
Apparently, not everyone thinks that is "enough", because 4,000 babies are STILL BEING KILLED every day.......
And I'm afraid that's more important to me than your "sensibilities".

reply from: yoda

No, yours is the only hissy-fit I've seen around here in MONTHS....
<sigh> I'm going to try one more time....... here's what YOU SAID
Originally posted by: pookiy1980
The second pix is of a 8week? A 8week is 3cm....the width of the pencil is a hair over 3cm now compare it to the baby it's head alone is bigger then 3cm.
YOU SAID "THE WIDTH OF THE PENCIL IS A HAIR OVER 3CM".........
Do you remember that NOW?????

reply from: yoda

Pookiy................. AT LEAST admit that you have NO pictures of "real aborted babies" for COMPARISON to the ones you claim are "misrepresented"..... can you do that?????

reply from: MoonLady

Pookiy - "Are there not other options for LTA's???"
Yes, there are a few. Depending on the doctor, the alternative to intact extraction (Dilation and Extraction, the medical term for "Partial Birth Abortion") could be Dilation and Evacuation. This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation and involves dismemberment of the fetus in the uterus and evacuation of the body parts, which may be more dangerous for the woman and is no less troubling to look at.
Instead of the curette used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the calcified bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the baby is totally dismembered and removed. Sometimes the head of the child is too large and must be crushed for removal.
There are also saline abortions (used after the sixteenth week of pregnancy.) A needle is inserted through the abdominal wall, through the uterine wall and into the amniotic sac. Some of the amniotic fluid is removed and replaced with a concentrated salt solution. The unborn child breathes in and swallows the salt and is poisoned by it. The mother goes into labour and a dead baby is delivered 24 to 48 hours later. This method of abortion is so dangerous to the mother that it is banned in Sweden and Japan.
Urea abortions are similar to the saline method. Urea is injected into the pregnant uterus in the same manner as saline. Urea is a soluble, weakly basic nitrogenous compound that is the chief solid component of mammalian urine and an end product of pretein decomposition. Urea is synthesized from carbon dioxide and ammonia, and is commercially used in the creation of plastics, fertilizers and animal food.

Hysterotomy abortion is similar to a cesarean delivery, except that its purpose is to kill rather than save the child. This method is sometimes used when a tubal ligation is performed at the same time. Almost all hysterotomy abortion babies are born alive. The abdomen and womb are opened surgically; the baby is lifted out and the umbilical cord is clamped. The child often struggles before dying. Some babies have survived this procedure and are subsequently accepted by their natural mothers, or placed for adoption.
Abortion by hysterectomy is the removal of the unborn child at the same time as the removal of the uterus.
By any standards, these methods are every bit as disturbing and hideous as the banned PBA. I fully believe that ALL of these procedures should be allowed only in extremely rare and restricted cases.

reply from: yoda

Ditto for me.
Now, if we can only get Tiller the Killer to go along with us.........

reply from: MoonLady

I believe that instead of the recently-upheld ban on PBAs, legislation should have been focused on making ALL methods of late-term abortions very difficult to obtain. The PBA ban, from what I've heard, does not even allow medical exceptions, making it an unfair and worthless piece of legislation.
There is no "good" way to do late-term abortions, but on some occasions they are medically necessary. Let's encourage our legislators to limit these abortions so that they are safe and fair to women, painless for the babies and VERY, VERY RARE.

reply from: pookiy1980

Pookiy................. AT LEAST admit that you have NO pictures of "real aborted babies" for COMPARISON to the ones you claim are "misrepresented"..... can you do that?????
I do not have any different ones from the usual PL ones that I can post no.
Can you at least admit you did not know the difference btwn scale and conversion???
HAve a good weekend ya'll

reply from: yoda

If you want us to believe that you support adoption, then you will repeat it EVERYTIME you talk about how some women will be BAD MOTHERS....... UNLESS you want us to think you're saying the baby should be killed before birth!
Is that what you want us to think you mean?

reply from: yoda

Then don't you think it's about time to lay off the criticism of the photos that others post?
Oh, I know......
When are you going to tell us where you got that inch and half wide pencil?

reply from: MoonLady

"Do we as a nation FORCE women (and men) not to kill their born children that they are planning to give up for adoption?"
Not yet, but pro-lifers are obviously bound and determined to make that the law of the land - even in cases where the mother does not want to surrender her own child for adoption.
Yodavater -"If you want us to believe that you support adoption, then you will repeat it EVERYTIME you talk about how some women will be BAD MOTHERS....... UNLESS you want us to think you're saying the baby should be killed before birth!
Is that what you want us to think you mean?"
No, I won't be repeating "Adoption is the best option" everytime I post something. That's just silly.
And yes, I do still support keeping early abortion legal. For some women, it really is the best choice. But that does not mean I think "the baby SHOULD be killed before birth." Not in the least.

reply from: yoda

Read the question again. OF COURSE we "force" (by our laws) parents NOT TO KILL their BORN CHILDREN...... so why not "force them not to kill their unborn children"?
I didn't think you would. So go right ahead, suggest/imply that some babies would be "better off dead" because their biological mothers are not "fit mothers"...... and don't even mention the possibility of abortion.
We knew that's what you meant all along.

reply from: MoonLady

Yes, I DID read that wrong and saw "born" as "unborn." Of course, we as a nation will NEVER force anyone to kill their children, either born or unborn.
"So go right ahead, suggest/imply that some babies would be "better off dead" because their biological mothers are not "fit mothers"
Their babies would be better off never being born. Once an unfit mother gives birth, NOBODY can make her give it up for adoption. She is allowed to change her mind. That situation would end up hurting the prospective adoptive parents, the woman herself AND the baby.
I guess what they say is true - "Pro-lifers start to care about the unborn at conception and stop at birth." Force all women to give birth NO MATTER WHAT but once that baby is born, who cares what happens to it? Who is adopting all those older children and children with disabilities? If there are so many people waiting to adopt, why do we have a surplus of adoptable children in this country?? Oh, I remember, they want a perfect little newborn so they can pretend it is their very own. Buy a baby doll, folks.

reply from: yoda

But you're not willing to respond to my question? Well, I'll repeat it: IF we FORCE parents NOT TO KILL their born kids, why can't we "force" them not to kill their unborn kids as well?
I'm glad I haven't eaten lunch yet. You're going to sit in judgment of these kids lives and say they're better off dead? You're going to stereotype a whole class of human beings as "better off dead"? What gives you that right? Who died and made you GOD?
Ah, good....... a nasty little personal attack on prolifers in general.... just the thing to ELEVATE this discussion!!
Way to take the high road, MOONIE!
YES........ we are all MONSTERS who love fetuses but hate born babies!! SATISFIED???? Not a single one of us contributes time or money to any charity that helps kids or families...... NEVER!!
IS THAT ENOUGH CRAP PILED ONTO US, OR DO YOU WANT TO TRASH US SOME MORE??????
{Oh, and btw, how does that make it okay for YOU to advocate killing babies?}

reply from: MoonLady

Certainly some PL people have lived up to their ideals, but there should be NO children waiting for adoption if even 1/10th of the pro-lifers actually adopted the unwanted children. Why bring more unwanted children into the world when there are already so many here already? Even the wanted children are dying in other countries (along with their siblings and mothers) from starvation, malnutrition and preventable or treatable diseases.
And you fail to comprehend why I don't believe American women should be forced to bring children they don't want (and nobody else needs) into this world? And you think all pro-choicers just LOVE abortion and think it's a sacrament of their "godless humanism?" And anyone who doesn't agree with you is automatically a "babykiller?" Sorry, you're just another whacko.

reply from: faithman

You lying dried up skank!!! There are millions of couples that want children, but are caught up in needless red tape the government and the adoption agentcy puts on the issue. SSSSOOOO just because a child may not be "wanted" we should kill them? Before you go down that road, you should look in the mirror and ask just how wanted you are.

reply from: MoonLady

"You lying dried up skank!!! There are millions of couples that want children, but are caught up in needless red tape the government and the adoption agentcy puts on the issue."
YOU are the lying dried up skank. Just this past weekend, ONE of the local adoption agencies had an "open house" for prospective clients because they have a surplus of children (NOT babies) waiting for adoption. The Statewide Adoption Network advertises on TV.
Those "millions of couples that want children" don't want just ANY children, they want newborn babies, ESPECIALLY little WHITE babies. Red tape, oh sure.

reply from: faithman

Babies who are being killed by the thousands by skanks like you. ....and if what you are saying is true, then why do so many go out of country to adopt children? most of whom are asian, latino, or african desent, not white european? You just can't help yourself but lie to justify your blood lust for pre-born womb children. Of course pro-deasth skanks always try to justify the killing of their children. They just refuse to see themselves as the evil hearted killers that the are.

reply from: yoda

Oh WOW! I just had to highlight that extremely charitable statement of yours! You're so incredibly kind!
So ONLY prolifers should be adopting, right? Is that because proaborts "should be relieved of all responsibility" for children who need parents, or because proaborts migh make horrible parents? How about those who are neutral, do they get a pass from responsibility too? Hey, prolifers are supposed to take care of the whole world, because they're the only ones that care enough, right? OH WAIT...... prolifers are the ones (according to you) that hate kids! Why do you want people who hate kids to adopt?
So, essentially, you're saying that a pregnant woman's womb is "out of this world"? Gestating children are like little aliens from outer space? And then they pass through the "magic vagina" and suddenly come "into this world", right? But they're not really alive? And they don't really exist, is that what you mean?
Hmmm....... interesting conclusion. Do you read minds on weekends too?
Very few people "love abortion", but yes there are SOME proaborts who do seem to. And yes, some of the loudest promoters of abortion seem to treat it as a sacrament, that's true. But it takes more than disagreeing with me to make you a baby killer, you have to have actually killed a baby, hired someone to kill yours, or actively supported baby killing to qualify.

reply from: MoonLady

"and if what you are saying is true, then why do so many go out of country to adopt children?"
Because it is (or used to be) easier to get little babies from places like China, Guatemala, Russia, etc. And many of them (not the Chinese) are even little WHITE babies! Imagine that! Russian, Ukrainian, Eastern European - all WHITE. Latin America - TAN.
Admit the truth, nutjob - hardly anybody wants older, mixed-race, handicapped or mentally challenged babies. They don't want kids with Fetal Alchohol Syndrome or crack babies. They don't want kids with Cerebral Palsy, fatally-ill children or children whose parents might want them back. The HUGE majority of those supposed millions of adoptive parents want little babies that look like they do, not strangers or children who require extra care.
You can find statistics on the Internet. There are FAR more children waiting for parents than there are parents waiting for children. But nobody wants sullen teenagers or potty-mouthed delinquents, do they? Not when the most sought-after "designer accessory" is a pale little newborn, they don't.

reply from: pookiy1980

I would love to adopt a child but I do not have a ton of $$ to dish out all at once in order to adopt, should that be a reason why I can not adopt? NO but it is. We have all these "unwanted" children so why make it so difficult to adopt???

reply from: pookiy1980

Actually I would take a bi-racial child.....I do not know about the millions exc. but I know I am ONE and again I do not have tons of $$ I can not adopt.
I am going to look up that agency thanks for a name.

reply from: MoonLady

Pookiy - Pennsylvania Statewide Adoption Network (SWAN) has a website - www.adoptpakids.org
The local (to me) organization that I mentioned is called "Brittany's Hope" and they are in Elizabethtown, PA. Website is brittanyshope.org
Google "bi-racial adoption" and you'll get thousands of hits.
Good luck to you! And THANK YOU for wanting one of the children most people don't have room in their hearts for.

reply from: AshMarie88

This has been proven false before.
I'm just wondering where your source for this claim is.

reply from: pookiy1980

Thanks! Does Brittany's hope not do children in the US? and what are the grants? is that money raised to help with the adoption fees?


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