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Why We Show The Bloody Photographs

by: RobertFerguson

http://www.missionariestopreborn.com/default.asp?fuseaction=whybloody

The Use of Graphic Photos of Aborted Children in the Public Forum -
by Cheryl Sullenger
An excellent article providing scriptural, moral and statistical support for the use of graphic pictures in abortion education and outreach.
http://www.survivors.la/graphicphotos.pdf

reply from: carolemarie

I have used the graphic pictures for 12 years. At the clinics on truth tours...but more and more I am becoming convinced that it is the wrong approach.
When a woman who has had an abortion see's the signs, she hears you calling her a murderer. No matter what you actually think or want her to know, that is what she is hearing. If your friends has had an abortion, the signs are calling her evil. And you know that she is a nice girl who was in trouble, so you can't handle it either
And she wants to cover up those images, that could be her child that you are showing, and it is indecent and wrong and a violation of privacy to show that childs dead mangled body with out the permission of the family. The signs stop real communication.
We need to find a way to reach out with compassion. Live babies in the womb and facts to change the mind of the public. Those graphic images have been shown since the 80's and we still have abortion. We need to remember that the kindnes of God leads to repentance, not clubbing people over the head with those images.
All those years I was holding the signs, I wouldn't look at them. They made me very uncomfortable....

reply from: faithman

Thank you SSSOOO much for your post. I agree 110% The live fiber optic photos of the womb child work many times better at winning hearts to the cause. If we are to win it peaceful, this is the best chance we have. Your story mirrors mine in many ways. Take heart and look at the I AM A PERSON thread. This image is being used with great sucess in stoping womb children from being killed. It can also be used around schools, with out upsetting parents and administrations. I am going to PM you my e-mail address. I will send you some very good pictures that you can use to make posters, if you respond. I also highly recomend the computer CD with can be purchased from the web site in my signature, from LIFE ISSUE INSTITUTE.

reply from: Shiprahagain

I feel that both types of pictures have a place. The main reason I don't discount the graphic photos is the historical precedent they have for working (slavery, Holocaust, Vietnam war, etc.) as well as testimony from places like the Center for Bioethical Reform about how well the photos have worked for them and testimonies from the people whose minds they've changed.

reply from: faithman

That is not being questioned, but the same people could have had a change of heart with the live pictures. What the bloody boys refuse to take into consideration, is the thousands the turn away from involvement with the giblet photos. The bloody pictures are also directly linked to insighting clinic violence from both sides. It just don't happen with the others.

reply from: Teresa18

I think both have their place. The live images are family friendly and show people what a child looks like at each stage of gestation. A woman or pro-abort seeing those pictures could prevent abortion and change hearts, as people will see the humanity of the unborn child. I also think the bloody pictures are effective. I wouldn't necessarily show them in areas where children are, but I would show them to adults, some women considering abortion, and pro-aborts. The live images are a before, and the bloody images are an after. The bloody images help people to see the humanity of the person killed too and the cruelty in abortion. Such images have helped people see the horror of such things in history as the Holocaust. They can help people today too with ending abortion. We should use everything peaceful at our disposal to end abortion.

reply from: faithman

I would agree with you, and would add, that if a movie carries an R rating for it's graphic nature which makes it inapropiate for young eyes, how can we continue to plaster bloody photos indiscrimanatly in front of children? I used to do it, and spent many years behind a Malachi sign. I have found that the I AM A PERSON poster changes hearts and carries a G rating. We use it at fairs, parades, conventions, nieborhoods, political conventions, and schools, with a great deal of success, with out the harmful side effects of the bloody pictures. I am not saying that the bloody are not effective, I am saying that the live pictures have a broader use, and are more effective.

reply from: yoda

They are supposed to. Social change does not occur as long as we stay in our "comfort zone".
Leave people in their comfort zone, and they will yawn, thank you politely, and go back to business as usual. If that's what you're after, of if you want to be "popular" with those whom you interact with, then by all means don't show any aborted babies.
The truth is sometimes very uncomfortable. If you accidentally run over a child while backing up in your car, do you refuse to look at the child? Do you run away screaming, saying "the sight of that bloody child makes me uncomfortable!"??
We owe the babies the courage to face the awful truth of what has been done to them. We owe these babies the stomach-churning experience of looking upon their mangled, bloody little bodies .................. and explain to them why we have not stopped it yet.
I remember vividly one fine spring day in Raleigh North Carolina, on the campus of NC State, where I was helping with a Genocide Awareness Project display. We had set up in a large open area, with a cafeteria on one side. Around lunch time, several students came by the display, on their way to and from the cafeteria. One of the young male students remarked at how "inconsiderate" it was of us to set up so close to where they ate lunch that we caused them to have an "upset stomach" from seeing our photos. I will never forget how callously that attitude struck me....... to compare his "upset stomach" to the fate of the poor babies in the photos. And that's how I view all such complaints........ callous to the fate of the babies.
And the children? The really strange thing is..... all the complaints about the effect the photos are supposed to have on the kids come from the grownups who either support abortion or don't do anything to oppose it.... never from the kids themselves. In fact, some of the irate parents even stop their cars, come back to the protesters to complain, and give the kids a chance to see the photos all over again! So what does that tell you?
And where are the scientific studies that establish "trauma" in a child from viewing a photograph? There are none.... it's just an "urban myth". Kids know that photos are just flat pieces of paper or plastic that can't hurt them. It's the adults that get bent out of shape, not the kids.

reply from: carolemarie

My objection is because we have had 50 million abortions since 1973. That means millions of women have had abortions and they are seeing the signs.
Those signs make post-abortive women upset. The signs are calling them monsters and they can't really deal with that, so they go farther into denial.
If you want to change laws and public opinion, you need to reach them with the live babies and the information that will allow them to change their minds without feeling attacked.
A pro-woman approach, not a pro-fetus approach.

reply from: yoda

The graphic signs are a relatively recent tactic. They've only been in widespread use for less than a dozen years. And abortion rates have been falling in those years. There are many, many people who have come forward to testify that their hearts were changed by seeing the signs, and that their babies are alive because of them. Who are we to believe, them or you?
No kidding? The truth upsets them? And you would have us lie to them, instead? Or lie by omission? Sometimes the truth hurts, and that's as it should be.
All different ways are being tried at the same time. We know that this way works for some, and we don't have any reason to think that other ways work as well, or that the signs have an overall negative effect. We're not trying to win a popularity contest, we're trying to open eyes and save babies.
What a coincidence, that's exactly what the proaborts say. Have you been listening to them? Or are you one of them?
Here's a news flash....... we ARE "PRO-FETUS/PRO-BABY"!!
It's the BABY that is the TARGET of an abortion....... NOT THE WOMAN!

reply from: faithman

WWWELLLL? The woman is the target of the abortion salesman.

reply from: yoda

Yep....... that's how the proaborts make their sales pitch, too....... "We're for the woman, not the fetus".. they say......

reply from: JaysonsMom

I agree with this 100%.
Amy

reply from: carolemarie

I am pro life.
South Dakota is a wonderful example of how they got an abortion ban through both houses and signed into law by the governor. Using a pro-woman approach.
It works because abortion is not in the best interest of women. The more we can promote that message and reach out to those who made that wrong choice the more we can change their hearts, get their votes and finally outlaw abortion.

reply from: faithman

Let's change the hearts before the choice. That is done with ultra sound, and the live fiber optic photos. This reconnects women to the womb child emotionally. After the deed though, it is most assuredly all about justice for the crime commited against the womb child. The bloody pictures cry out for justice, but main stream "pro-life" denies justice of the slain with the "pro-woman" approach. When you rightly divide, you see that there is room for both approaches. The problem is that the "pro-woman" folk have usurpted justice for the womb child. And as long as that is the prevailing pro-life wind, the legal slaughter will continue.

reply from: yoda

I went to SD and worked hard to try to get RL #6 passed last year, and it failed. So the "pro-woman" approach didn't work so hot in the referendum. Many prolifers I talked to honestly believe that it would've had a better chance had we used the graphic displays earlier and more prominently, but of course the main organization there opposed that.
There's nothing wrong with pointing out the harm that abortion does to women, but we can't depend on that alone. PP stays in business by telling women that abortion is "good for them". But they can't tell anyone that abortion is good for the baby, that's where we win every time.

reply from: yoda

And you never will, CP..... and you have no idea how happy that makes me. Slander on....

reply from: faithman

And you never will, CP..... and you have no idea how happy that makes me. Slander on....
Dang Yoda! Sorry to hear about your paraniod problems, Hear tell there is medication for such conditions though.

reply from: YesYouNeedJesus

The graphic pictures are only disgusting if they are of a baby that's been murdered. No pro-abort should have a problem with them if indeed it's just a blob of tissue that's been hacked up.
Pro-lifers, on the other hand, need to realize that the graphic pictures work. This is a proven fact. I sidewalk counsel everyday at the PP in Denver, Colorado. The sidewalk counselors at this particular PP save about 100 babies a year. Confirmed saves. 50% of the time or greater, the woman says she changed her mind because of the graphic pictures. Further, on a weekly basis, women and men who are walking, biking, driving, etc, down the street will stop and say "I had no idea this is what abortion was!" after viewing the graphic pictures. The TRUTH is hard to take, but the truth has been hidden from this nation and the majority are convinced that they are only aborting a blob, not a baby. We preach truth, and especially the truth that's being repressed in this wicked country.

reply from: faithman

I don't disagree with what you say at all. I have done the same for years. But my personal experiance has shown me that the I AM A PERSON is more powerful than MALACHI, in that it is every bit as good in changing hearts about abortion, is totally family freindly, and the media will put them on TV. Malachi will not be allowed at the fair, but hundreds of thousands have seen the I AM A PERSON, and many moms have taught their children about the facts of preborn life with out the animosity that MALACHI fosters. I would challenge you to just try it. Just because you have always done it that way, does not make it the best way. If you could find a way that changes more hearts, is just as much the truth, and win mushy middle america to the cause, wouldn't you try it?

reply from: YesYouNeedJesus

Every woman is different. We use every method possible at the mill. We have the graphic pictures and the beautiful ones. We say harsh things and loving things. It's so hard to tell what will get a woman to change her mind. To say that the graphic pictures should be done away with altogether is foolish. They are needed for some women.

reply from: faithman

Every woman is different. We use every method possible at the mill. We have the graphic pictures and the beautiful ones. We say harsh things and loving things. It's so hard to tell what will get a woman to change her mind. To say that the graphic pictures should be done away with altogether is foolish. They are needed for some women.
Who said get rid of them all together? Not me. I am just saying we should be a little more careful where they are shown.

reply from: yoda

Oh heavens, I don't worry one whit about you slandering me..... I meant go on back to your frenzied slander of Troy Newman, a man whose shoe laces you aren't fit to tie.

reply from: yoda

You know, just because I'm paranoid, that doesn't mean they're not out to get me........

reply from: faithman

You know, just because I'm paranoid, that doesn't mean they're not out to get me........
Boy fella!!! It's worser than we thought!!

reply from: YesYouNeedJesus

I guess it did come across that way, but I didn't mean that you said they should be done away with. Sorry about that. It does seem to be the overall thrust of the thread though. I just wanted people to realize that the graphic pictures are most definitely needed.

reply from: faithman

I guess it did come across that way, but I didn't mean that you said they should be done away with. Sorry about that. It does seem to be the overall thrust of the thread though. I just wanted people to realize that the graphic pictures are most definitely needed.
I agree totally. I used to show Malachi at our local fair. We were almost thrown out. We changed to the pictures of the live fiber optic,[check out the site in my post] with no problem with officials. I still use a small Malachi, and ask teens and above in age if they would like to see a child after abortion. When the see the aborted, they always get upset that a child was killed in that way. If you put the aborted pictures in such a way that folk have to chose to see them, then they are not mad at you. The live pictures only upset sold out pro-aborts, and I always delight when they throw their fit in front of Mr. and Mrs. middle america. With the live pictures, we have had thousands of mothers with even very small children, say "look thats what you looked like in mommy's tummy". The live picture enoculate children from the planned parenthood lies. I have also had pro-aborts get really stupid about being pro-choice when I show the live. That is when I ask,"so to be pro-choice is smarter than being pro-life?" When they say yes, that is when I "convert" to being pro-choice, pull out the Malachi, and follow them around shouting pro-choice, kill all the babies. Most times they are glad that I go back to being pro-life. I use both. All I am saying is that the live ones are better most of the time, and we need to expose America to them. The media is far more likely to put the live ones on the tube and in the paper. After folk see the live, it makes the aborted even more powerful, as they have been connected to our common humanity with the womb child. PM men a snail mail and I will send you a sample.

reply from: JaysonsMom

I googled Troy Newman and found this:
"In September 2006, Newman and Army of God member Jonathan O'Toole showed up at an open-air gubernatorial debate dressed as cockroaches, protesting alleged unsanitary conditions at Tiller's clinic."
Isn't the Army Of God quite an extremist group? They label people who murder abortionists "Heroes". Two wrongs don't make a right. Putting them up on a pedestal is frightening to me. What I wondered was if Troy and Jonathan came together or just found one another at the debate and teamed up to protest. Either way, associating with the AOG isn't the best way to get your message across, in my opinion.
http://armyofgod.com/

Amy

reply from: faithman

You know, just because I'm paranoid, that doesn't mean they're not out to get me........
Right, when I grow up, I want to be model a citizen just like you, Troy, and Fboy....

May haps you will make it some day.

reply from: Shiprahagain

If you kill an abortionist is it murder? If you killed somebody systematically shooting kids on a school bus would that be murder or defense of the defenseless? Not that I'm advocating killing abortionists, but I'm just asking.

reply from: faithman

If you kill an abortionist is it murder? If you killed somebody systematically shooting kids on a school bus would that be murder or defense of the defenseless? Not that I'm advocating killing abortionists, but I'm just asking.
Watch it there kido. You are making way to much sence. Logic don't matter here. It's all about touchy feel good emotions, no matter how much justice is denied for the slaughtered, and no matter how many womb children are denied protection from killer skanks, and the payed assasin abortionist. Oh but that is being judgemental now isn't it?

reply from: JaysonsMom

Tricky questions.
I would have to say yes. Killing anyone is murder, regardless of the circumstances. However, I would expect any reasonable person to defend their life if it was threatened.
I understand that killing the abortionist prevents him/her from performing anymore abortions, but I wouldn't resort to this. I don't think God meant for us to go around killing as many abortionists as possible during our lifetime. Protests, signing petitions, writing the government... these are all ways to try and end abortion without resorting to murder. Maybe not as effective, but legal, at least.
I would also expect that if someone saw a person gunning down kids on a school bus to try and stop him with as much force as necessary.
I know the thought process here: Killing the abortionists helps defend the unborn children who are in imminent danger from being aborted. Taking down the gunman protects the children on the bus who were also in obvious imminent danger. No matter what I say here, it will be twisted around and construed in a negative manner.
Amy

reply from: carolemarie

Ummm YES it would be murder if you killed an abortion provider!

reply from: faithman

You don't know the definition of murder. Not all killing is murder. Murder is shedding innocent blood. Stopping a criminal with deadly force is not murder. If that were true, then the police are murderers, as well as soldiers. Justifiable homoside is the stopping of an evil aggressor. All citizens of the US have the right to use deadly force to stop evil aggression against a born person. According to some "pro-lifers", the womb child is a second class citizen, and does not deserve the same consideration as the born person.

reply from: JaysonsMom

It's still murder, but it's given a specific title depending on the circumstances. You can't say that killing someone isn't murder. It is, but it's acceptable under our law in some instances, like defending the children on the bus. Walking in and killing an abortion doctor or blowing up the clinic are not considered acceptable. Police officers and soldiers have been given permission to commit murder by the government.
murder
: to kill (a human being) unlawfully and under circumstances constituting murder
ho·mi·cide
1 : a person who kills another
2 : the killing of one human being by another
excusable homicide
: homicide that is committed by accident or misfortune by a person doing a lawful act by lawful means with usual and ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent and that is excused under the law with no criminal punishment imposed
justifiable homicide
: homicide that is committed in self-defense, in defense of another and esp. a member of one's family or sometimes in defense of a residence, in preventing a felony esp. involving great bodily harm, or in performing a legal duty and that is justified under the law with no criminal punishment imposed

reply from: faithman

It's still murder, but it's given a specific title depending on the circumstances. You can't say that killing someone isn't murder. It is, but it's acceptable under our law in some instances, like defending the children on the bus. Walking in and killing an abortion doctor or blowing up the clinic are not considered acceptable. Police officers and soldiers have been given permission to commit murder by the government.
murder
: to kill (a human being) unlawfully and under circumstances constituting murder
ho·mi·cide
1 : a person who kills another
2 : the killing of one human being by another
excusable homicide
: homicide that is committed by accident or misfortune by a person doing a lawful act by lawful means with usual and ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent and that is excused under the law with no criminal punishment imposed
justifiable homicide
: homicide that is committed in self-defense, in defense of another and esp. a member of one's family or sometimes in defense of a residence, in preventing a felony esp. involving great bodily harm, or in performing a legal duty and that is justified under the law with no criminal punishment imposed
Hey dumby, you just made my point. All killing of human beings is homocide, not murder. Murder is unlawful homocide. To kill in defence is justifiable homocide. It always tickles me when folk are blinded by their own self importance and opinion, and refuse to look at the truth when it is stareing them in the face. the question then is, is abortion murder? If it is then it should be justified to use what ever means to stop it.

reply from: JaysonsMom

Okay, I see that trying to talk with you is like talking to a kindergarten child who loves to argue and name call. You're wrong and you have fun wallowing in that. You think I'M blinded by self-importance? That's laughable. YOU are and what you're doing is called projection.

reply from: Teresa18

Faithman, I know you are going to get mad at me for this, but could you stop being so nasty with JaysonsMom? She has been very friendly since she arrived here, and I haven't seen her personally attacking anyone, even you.
Not everyone agrees with using violence to end abortion. You don't even use violence, do you? Some people feel that will prolong the ending of abortion because people will be less likely to sympathize with pro-life causes and condemn abortion. The more we can get on our side that realize the cruelty of abortion, the sooner we will be able to end abortion. Let's stop fighting with our own and work together to open hearts and minds to the reality of abortion and save the babies. That is the goal here.

reply from: faithman

SSSSOOO she gets a free walk with her name calling? Her continuos errors should not be exposed as such? Are you blind? You haven't seen her numerous name calling attacks against me? I am just supposed to lay down and take her crap? I don't think so.

reply from: faithman

Okay, I see that trying to talk with you is like talking to a kindergarten child who loves to argue and name call. You're wrong and you have fun wallowing in that. You think I'M blinded by self-importance? That's laughable. YOU are and what you're doing is called projection.
Hey dumby. I am the one who proved you wrong with your own post. If you can not clearly see the error of your ways, then you are the one who is willingly ignorant and childish. You have yet to prove me wrong, while I have proven you to be in error at every turn. Sorry if the facts hurt your feelings, but when your feelings are wrong they should be hurt.

reply from: JaysonsMom

You're right and I apologize here like I did in the other thread. I think I had a rather serious brain cramp going on because I promise you all that I'm not usually that blind and confused. *hides under something*

reply from: faithman

Gosh!! BUMMER!!!! The fuss was just getting good. Had a whole new batch of harsh, unforgiving, narrow minded, insulting names to call you. No worries, will save for later.

reply from: yoda

Not trying to take sides here, but the word "murder" in it's noun form denotes the illegal killing of a human being, as FMan said. In it's verb form, however, legality is not the only criteria.

reply from: JaysonsMom

That's true. I need to be more careful with my wording.
Amy

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

The signs are suppose to call the mother a murderer. And yes, we are calling her evil. And no, she is not a nice girl.
Jesus said, "This is an adulterous and evil generation." Which part of this is not clear? It means the average US citizen. Not someone far away out of sight.

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

The signs are suppose to call the mother a murderer. And yes, we are calling her evil. And no, she is not a nice girl.
Jesus said, "This is an adulterous and evil generation." Which part of this is not clear? It means the average US citizen. Not someone far away out of sight.
None of that was really clear to me. Jesus was obviously referring to the generation he was addressing, since they asked for a sign. He actually said: Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
So why are we supposed to show signs calling them murderers? I don't get. I have no idea what this scripture is supposed to prove...
The New Testament gives the message that men shall wax worse and worse, and will be at their most morally corrupt stage just before Jesus' return. It is my understanding that while God's Government is not present on this earth, men are "evil and adulterous." The Biblical meaning of adulterous is "unfaithful to God" and is not a reference to sexual infidelity except for as it relates to interpreting Christ's parable. Being a virgin at Christ's return is not a reference to a physical sexual purity, but of not being involved in man's ways of doing things (man's kingdoms). Jesus did not speak without using a parable. He told his students he only spoke in parables (using a story to illustrate another reality) because he did not want those hearing the parable to understand what he was talking about; except for the students to whom the meaning of the parable was explained. Man has been assigned his days to do his work, and God will not interfere with that. Afterwards is man's Sabbath of rest from his works, in which it will be God's work and man must rest from his.
The sign of Jonah is ignored and not understood. Jesus said he would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the fish. The Old Testament stories are physical parables of the later coming Spiritual reality. I Corinthians 5:7 tells us, for example, that Christ is the Passover Lamb, he served as the sacrificial Lamb on Passover day. The Bible says the Holy Days are a shadow, a physical pattern of the Spiritual reality. The whole Exodus is a shadow, pattern or prophecy of the modern Christian's exodus out of slavery to sin in man's system. Jesus was crucified on Passover day in mid-week. They hurriedly buried his body before the High Sabbath began that evening (first day of Unleavened Bread is a High Sabbath). After the High Sabbath was over the women prepared the spices; they then rested on the regular weekly Sabbath as commanded. Jesus rose three days and three nights after being laid in the tomb. Jesus said this was the sign that He was the Messiah; for it had been prophesied long ago. At this time we will not be shown any other great signs or wonders that Jesus is the Christ.
When Jesus started preaching, he said, "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near." Repentance is the first step. One cannot repent unless he truly understands that he himself is "evil and adulterous"; unfaithful to God. Jesus told people right to their faces, "Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire." John 8:44 John the Baptist said repentance was necessary for salvation."You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the comining wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance....The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."
You must be told you are evil and adulterous so you realize that a major course correction is required. People must get off the broad and easy road to destruction and get on the straight and narrow path that leads to life. People, like those that kill their children, must realize they are on the broad and easy road to death. It ain't happening without a confrontation.
Negatives to the speaker, nonacceptance in many cases, Jesus said, "...the world hates me because I keep telling it that it's ways are bad." You will not be accepted by the world, but saving lives is the goal.

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

Concerned Parent, I agree with most or all of what you said in the your last two posts either in totality or in degree based on circumstances.
In preaching the gospel, Jesus said, "Don't throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them and turn and do you harm." It just does no good trying to speak to most people. They will be hostile and non-receptive. They may try to hurt you.
Some of those I travel with I found shockingly strong in their approach; calling people murderers over the bullhorn, and using the word "murder" on some signs. Few hearts will be changed. Abortion supporters may seek for vengenance. Technically, I do not find them wrong in their claims. As you point out, in the US, abortion is not an unlawful homocide. While I personally think the worst of people's actions, I generally would not reveal my whole mind on the subject. If asked, I would reveal my full position. A softer approach, letting the few repentent know that what they are doing is wrong, could turn the few towards repenting fully.

reply from: faithman

Most of our attention should be focussed on pre-abortive women. There is nothing better than the I AM A PERSON. Try it, you will like it.

reply from: yoda

Here's the thing: few hearts will be changed anyway you go about it. By the time they reach the abortuary, most people's hearts are "dead set" on killing their child, and there's not much chance of turning that around. For the few that are wavering, there is no "one size fits all" approach.
Some will respond best to nothing more than the fact that a person who apparently cares is standing there silently...... others will respond best to someone shouting out "Please don't kill your baby". And there is no way to know in advance which approach will work best. It's up to the individual protester to decide which approach they are most comfortable with. Personally, I'm not comfortable being verbal, so I use a large "I AM A PERSON" poster and a small camera mounted on a tripod, about 150 feet away from the front door. Each of us has to find our own "comfort zone" for interacting with the "hell-bound" customers, because if it doesn't feel right for us, it probably won't seem right to them either.
The word "murder" is technically correct (in the verb form), and some do feel it expresses their feelings better than the word "kill". It's the noun form that is reserved for illegal killings.
As to the proaborts "seeking vengeance", well that just goes with the territory. If you're afraid to take that risk, I guess you don't really belong out there.

reply from: faithman

You are quite right.Very few turn from the death chamber. It is more in honor for the child being slaughtered. If one is truely looking to put a peaceful end to abortion on demand, must reach folk way before the walk into the brain washing conscience salve of Planned Parenthood "counciling". We should really be focussed on you girls 11-14. Planed Parrenthood heavely focusses on this age group for their future cliants. The "I AM A PERSON" post cards make a major impact on this age group. I will send a sample to anyone who will PM me a snail mail address. I also have a very good series of e-mails to pass along. E-mail is a great way to get the truth out. Really torques them pro-aborts off when they get pro-life email. Every Planned Parenthood should be getting bunches of I AM A PERSON e-mails. PM me an e-mail address, and I will hook you up.

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

As to the proaborts "seeking vengeance", well that just goes with the territory. If you're afraid to take that risk, I guess you don't really belong out there.
Jesus refused to walk in Judea for awhile because the Jews there were looking to kill him. Also, he hid himself at the temple when a mob picked up stones to stone him. The Apostle Paul fled a city at night (lowered over the wall in a basket) when he learned individuals were out to kill him. Paul also left a city after recovering from a stoning and being left for dead. You need to shake the dust off your feet and move on to a more receptive audience; there is no purpose in talking to those who are opposed to you.
Many countries consider abortion a "human right". Most nations will support and promote abortion; I don't see that changing.
Despite the risks, and the glum prognosis for overall success against abortion, I will continue to speak out, from time to time.
My main ministry is preaching that man's ways are fatally flawed, that a bad outcome is assured under man's management. God is performing a work at this very time that men will be amazed has happened under their eyes without their being aware of it. God is calling individuals out of man's ways to follow His Way. If they overcome, they will receive a crown, and rule with the Messiah (Christ means Messiah). God is selecting people to rule with Christ; they shall be at the marriage supper with the other saints and Christ when He returns to set up the Kingdom.

reply from: carolemarie

That is so outragous that I was momentarily stunned. However I regained the use of my fingers so let me first tell you
1. She may very well be a nice person. Nice people have abortions. Being mean and nasty is not the critera for giving into to sin. All of us sin. And God metes out the same punishment for abortion as He does for lying. He sees them as the same. We are the one who think some sins are better than others.
2. Making people feel guilt doesn't change there position. It tends to harden their hearts. You can do the same thing gently so they can hear you, then they can change their position. Being attacked tends to make one defensive, then they can't hear the truth. What do you want to accomplish? If it is to change their position, then making people feel attacked is not going to work.
Carole

reply from: carolemarie

If you talk to people nicely, and treat them with respect, they are more inclinded to listen. Calling people names over bullhorns was probably done by men with an attitude. Men who have issues with women seem to be attracted to the prolife movement.

reply from: carolemarie

Here's the thing: few hearts will be changed anyway you go about it. By the time they reach the abortuary, most people's hearts are "dead set" on killing their child, and there's not much chance of turning that around. For the few that are wavering, there is no "one size fits all" approach.
Some will respond best to nothing more than the fact that a person who apparently cares is standing there silently...... others will respond best to someone shouting out "Please don't kill your baby". And there is no way to know in advance which approach will work best. It's up to the individual protester to decide which approach they are most comfortable with. Personally, I'm not comfortable being verbal, so I use a large "I AM A PERSON" poster and a small camera mounted on a tripod, about 150 feet away from the front door. Each of us has to find our own "comfort zone" for interacting with the "hell-bound" customers, because if it doesn't feel right for us, it probably won't seem right to them either.
The word "murder" is technically correct (in the verb form), and some do feel it expresses their feelings better than the word "kill". It's the noun form that is reserved for illegal killings.
As to the proaborts "seeking vengeance", well that just goes with the territory. If you're afraid to take that risk, I guess you don't really belong out there.
I think everyone who we have an encounter with, either silently or verbally, we make a impact on. Some women may not have the second abortion because of what we said. I have seen a lot of women come back and they are in tears because they didn't listen and we have a wonderful opportunity to share the gospel with them. No matter what happens, those people know that we care about them and want to help them.
Carole

reply from: faithman

If you talk to people nicely, and treat them with respect, they are more inclinded to listen. Calling people names over bullhorns was probably done by men with an attitude. Men who have issues with women seem to be attracted to the prolife movement.
When it comes down to the last moment of a womb childs life, we need more bull horns, not fewer. The very least we can do is cry out with a loud voice for the little ones in their final moments. Of course if you are a killer mom, you wouldn't want to be reminded of it. If you are a serial killer going in for your third, or 7th abortion, you would not want to be inconvenianced with someone raising a voice for justice for the little womb child you were about to slaughter. I could see why some would want niceness insted of confrontation. Most monsters refuse to see themselves as such.

reply from: carolemarie

If you talk to people nicely, and treat them with respect, they are more inclinded to listen. Calling people names over bullhorns was probably done by men with an attitude. Men who have issues with women seem to be attracted to the prolife movement.
When it comes down to the last moment of a womb childs life, we need more bull horns, not fewer. The very least we can do is cry out with a loud voice for the little ones in their final moments. Of course if you are a killer mom, you wouldn't want to be reminded of it. If you are a serial killer going in for your third, or 7th abortion, you would not want to be inconvenianced with someone raising a voice for justice for the little womb child you were about to slaughter. I could see why some would want niceness insted of confrontation. Most monsters refuse to see themselves as such.
If you want to reach the woman who is seeking an abortion, being hateful isn't the way to do it. You can tell her the truth with out being mean. If you make her mad, she is likely to focus her anger and stress on you and march into the clinic.
What is your goal, to relieve your feelings or reach her? I know it can be heartbreaking to watch woman after woman day after day choose abortion. But that doesn't mean we harden our hearts as well.
Carole

reply from: faithman

If you talk to people nicely, and treat them with respect, they are more inclinded to listen. Calling people names over bullhorns was probably done by men with an attitude. Men who have issues with women seem to be attracted to the prolife movement.
When it comes down to the last moment of a womb childs life, we need more bull horns, not fewer. The very least we can do is cry out with a loud voice for the little ones in their final moments. Of course if you are a killer mom, you wouldn't want to be reminded of it. If you are a serial killer going in for your third, or 7th abortion, you would not want to be inconvenianced with someone raising a voice for justice for the little womb child you were about to slaughter. I could see why some would want niceness insted of confrontation. Most monsters refuse to see themselves as such.
If you want to reach the woman who is seeking an abortion, being hateful isn't the way to do it. You can tell her the truth with out being mean. If you make her mad, she is likely to focus her anger and stress on you and march into the clinic.
What is your goal, to relieve your feelings or reach her? I know it can be heartbreaking to watch woman after woman day after day choose abortion. But that doesn't mean we harden our hearts as well.
Carole
Asking a rabid dog nicely not to bite you very rarely keeps his fangs out of you.You keep focussing attention on killer mom, and very conveniantly ignoring the child. As long as we continue to play "nice" with this enemy, they will devour our posterity. Abortion on demand needs to be defeated, not reasoned with, or regulated, nor make heros out of those who killed their kids.

reply from: yoda

Who is looking to kill you? Are you afraid of every shadow?
If you are so timid that you will imagine threats, and be afraid to do anything because of those imagined threats, then you don't belong in this "abortion war".

reply from: yoda

I keep telling you, over and over...... we don't have the chance to get that close to these people! The entire parking lot is legally off limits to us, so any who wish to communicate verbally have to shout or use a very large sign, or something that visible from a distance.

reply from: MoonLady

"As long as we continue to play "nice" with this enemy, they will devour our posterity."
How on earth can someone outside your family "devour" your "posterity" unless they murder YOUR children or your wife or yourself?
They are altering their OWN posterity, not that of anyone else.

reply from: lorbeckd

I have been in and out of active pro-life work for the past 30 years. On that day 30 years ago, it took all of 5 seconds to change my attitude on abortion from one of ambivalence to ardent pro-lifer. How did this happen? All it took was one photograph from Dr Wilke's "Handbook on Abortion" and my life was changed forever. Everything else from that point just improved my ability to argue the case. My point is, the stark, shocking, and yes, bloody evidence of the horror of abortion is at the heart and soul of our argument and always will be.
No social movement in this country has ever produced the kind of change we are seeking without making large numbers of people uncomfortable and ultimately, outraged concerning the injustice in question. How many of us would have the Nazi holocaust burned into our memories without the horrific photos of that tragedy? Until Black people were pictured on the evening news having fire hoses turned on them and being savagely beaten with billy clubs by the police in Montgomery Alabama in the '60's , most people up North were ambivalent about racial injustice.
I'm sorry that these pictures upset people. But I'm sorrier that abortion exists in this country. Women who have had abortions need to see what they did. Check out abortionno.org and abort73.com and read how seeing these graphic images has forced them to confront the truth and ultimately to seek forgiveness.

reply from: faithman

So much for it takes a village, huh?

reply from: MoonLady

Do you think it would be helpful to hold large signs that say, "WE CAN HELP YOU! CALL (CPC phone #)" instead of using confrontational tactics? I know that the photos, etc. save a few babies, but wouldn't you save more by offering the help that many women need?

reply from: faithman

For one thing CPC's will sue you for using their information without permission, Also CPC net works like care net have policys that forbid volunteers, or anyone asociated with care net from picketing an abortion clinic. The CPC crowd tends to be very snooty and look down their nose at folk who stand at the clinics. CPC's are not the best investment of your funds when considering the return. The best return on your pro-life investment, is material Like I AM A PERSON. We don't need any more money pits of eneffectual burocracy . If the individual would simply arm themselves with effective materials, and get busy handing them out, we would win in short order.

reply from: yoda

Welcome to the forum, lorbeckd. Someone recently made the point that Joseph Stalin ordered the murder of more people before WWII than Hitler's Nazi's are said to have killed in their death camps. But we hardly ever hear about Stalin's victims, while the Holocaust victims are well known. Why is that? One reason could be that Stalin's victims were never photographed.

reply from: carolemarie

If you talk to people nicely, and treat them with respect, they are more inclinded to listen. Calling people names over bullhorns was probably done by men with an attitude. Men who have issues with women seem to be attracted to the prolife movement.
When it comes down to the last moment of a womb childs life, we need more bull horns, not fewer. The very least we can do is cry out with a loud voice for the little ones in their final moments. Of course if you are a killer mom, you wouldn't want to be reminded of it. If you are a serial killer going in for your third, or 7th abortion, you would not want to be inconvenianced with someone raising a voice for justice for the little womb child you were about to slaughter. I could see why some would want niceness insted of confrontation. Most monsters refuse to see themselves as such.
If you want to reach the woman who is seeking an abortion, being hateful isn't the way to do it. You can tell her the truth with out being mean. If you make her mad, she is likely to focus her anger and stress on you and march into the clinic.
What is your goal, to relieve your feelings or reach her? I know it can be heartbreaking to watch woman after woman day after day choose abortion. But that doesn't mean we harden our hearts as well.
Carole
Asking a rabid dog nicely not to bite you very rarely keeps his fangs out of you.You keep focussing attention on killer mom, and very conveniantly ignoring the child. As long as we continue to play "nice" with this enemy, they will devour our posterity. Abortion on demand needs to be defeated, not reasoned with, or regulated, nor make heros out of those who killed their kids.
Because the woman is carrying the child! You have to reach her to save the baby. That is why I focus on her. She is the only one who can stop the abortion, so your focus needs to be on her.

reply from: carolemarie

I keep telling you, over and over...... we don't have the chance to get that close to these people! The entire parking lot is legally off limits to us, so any who wish to communicate verbally have to shout or use a very large sign, or something that visible from a distance.
That is difficult! We have a similar situtation here in 'Wichita. It makes it more difficult. But trying to intimidate women by filming them isn't going to help you, it will just give her an enemy to focus on as she trotts into the clinic. Do you smile at the people as they pull up and wave them over? I do and you would be suprised at how often they will roll down their window and take information.
From the point of view of the customer, they have been told that protesters will be there. The clinic has told them to ignore us and just come right in. They think pro-lifers are dangerous, and they are uneasy because we are there. They expect us to be mean and call them names and give them a hard time. They are taken off guard by people being kind and friendly and considerate. And if we are talking to the mom, we have to focus on her, what her needs are and how we can help her, because that is how you save the baby. She has to believe that we care about her, not just the baby, and that she can trust us. And you get two minutes tops to do that. Keep the graphic signs away from were the driveway and where sidewalk counselor's are, use the ones Faithman uses there.
Put the information you want her to know on a big sign, if you can't talk to her, write her!

reply from: carolemarie

We do that, except that I put my cell on it. Lots of them have called me and I take them down to the Pregnancy Help Center (I have a key) and get them started. Not all PHC's are as great as the one I work with.
But signs with that help, some stop to talk because of it.
carole

reply from: yoda

We're not the "enemy". We're just the witnesses. Do witnesses "intimidate" people? Are people who are about to do a shameful thing feel intimidated by knowing there are going to be witnesses to their act? If so, then perhaps they need to feel "intimidated"! Our presence, and our camera bear silent witness that they are not going to do this terrible thing without anyone ever knowing about it, and for some that may cause them to stop and think.
We have one nice Catholic gentleman in the front of the parking lot who does attempt to hand out brochures to those driving in, and on rare occasions some of them stop and take it. I stand to the side of the lot, where communication is almost impossible.
Lucky you.... like I said, over and over.... we get almost no chance at all to ever speak to any of them.

reply from: faithman

We're not the "enemy". We're just the witnesses. Do witnesses "intimidate" people? Are people who are about to do a shameful thing feel intimidated by knowing there are going to be witnesses to their act? If so, then perhaps they need to feel "intimidated"! Our presence, and our camera bear silent witness that they are not going to do this terrible thing without anyone ever knowing about it, and for some that may cause them to stop and think.
We have one nice Catholic gentleman in the front of the parking lot who does attempt to hand out brochures to those driving in, and on rare occasions some of them stop and take it. I stand to the side of the lot, where communication is almost impossible.
Lucky you.... like I said, over and over.... we get almost no chance at all to ever speak to any of them.
Do you kinda get the feeling this person is more pro-woman than pro-womb child? The issue is the child. We should be doing what ever it takes to save the child from murder. If I thought busting knee capps would save a child, there would be many walking with a limp.

reply from: MoonLady

CaroleMarie - Sounds like a great idea and one that women would respond to much more than to photos, insults, bullhorns, etc.
Faithman - I had no idea that CPCs do not work in tandem with PL protests. What is their reason for not cooperating? I simply don't understand the lack of logic in what you stated. CPCs have got to be one of the PL's biggest assets in helping women to choose not to abort.
Is there not something that can be done for everyone to work together?

reply from: yoda

That is an approach that is favored by many. Personally, as I told one nationally prominent PL "personality", I prefer to focus on the victims of abortions, not on the perpetrators. To me, it's like those people who want to emphasize the rights of the accused but ignore the rights of the victims. There is no doubt in the case of abortion about "guilt", there is only doubt about life or death for the baby. And to put it any other way is to treat the unborn as a second-class person, IMO.

reply from: faithman

That is an approach that is favored by many. Personally, as I told one nationally prominent PL "personality", I prefer to focus on the victims of abortions, not on the perpetrators. To me, it's like those people who want to emphasize the rights of the accused but ignore the rights of the victims. There is no doubt in the case of abortion about "guilt", there is only doubt about life or death for the baby. And to put it any other way is to treat the unborn as a second-class person, IMO.
You mean ole vendictive man you!!!! Don't you know you don't have a "real voice" on this subject unles you have had a couple abortions yourself?

reply from: faithman

When money is more important than the child, no, there is nothing you can do to bring folk to gether. Not all CPC's have the same policy as care net. CPC's are not the biggest asset. our biggest asset, and the most neglected. are the individual activist on the ground. It is the "organization" mentality that has hurt pro-life the most. You give me the money that it takes to run our local CPC, I could run planned parenthood out of town, and supply activist all over the nation with literature. CPC's do not deserve their preiminant postion they have in Pro-life. They are a bad investment, when you consider the return. We need to stop the killing first. Then we can focus on the mess abortion has left. But i think it is a huge mistake to put all the pro-life eggs in the CPC basket. They are starving out some of the more effective actions by sucking up all the resourses. But it is a touchy feel good way to ignore the child and still call yourself pro-life.

reply from: yoda

I have a memory burned in my mind of a foaming at the mouth feminazi proabort screaming a a prolife man that he had no business expressing an opinion on abortion because he had no womb, while a castrated male with a proabort sign in his hand stood behind her, shivering.

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

Thank-you for your response Shiprahagain; it is entirely correct.
Carolemarie's response that, "Oh, I'm a nice girl, I just happen to kill a living human being now and then" does seem a real dichotomy.
The Bible also says the human conscience is one of the most important attributes a person possesses. If a person's conscience is seared with a hot iron, if they can no longer feel guilty about inappropriate actions, that person is in serious trouble. Guilt and pain tell us when something is wrong and corrective action needs to be taken.

reply from: faithman

I have a memory burned in my mind of a foaming at the mouth feminazi proabort screaming a a prolife man that he had no business expressing an opinion on abortion because he had no womb, while a castrated male with a proabort sign in his hand stood behind her, shivering.
Don't look now, but alot of "prolife" have adapted the pro-killer language, or did they bring it with them?

reply from: yoda

Yes, I know. And I think that a wolf in sheep's clothing can be much more dangerous than a wolf in wolf's clothing.

reply from: faithman

Yes, I know. And I think that a wolf in sheep's clothing can be much more dangerous than a wolf in wolf's clothing.
What about the wolf that truely thinks they are a sheep? A condesending wolf, who thinks all the other sheep should listen to what they say, simply because they have the experiance of eating sheep.

reply from: yoda

That's one truly confused beast..... much too far gone for therapy, I'd say.

reply from: faithman

I would pity, except that it would cost basic dignaty to the womb child. Ain't quite willing to pay that tax yet.

reply from: yoda

Here is another good example of why we believe the graphic aborted baby photos save babies:
----- Original Message -----
From: Holy Family Adoption Agency
To: Holy Family Adoption Agency
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: Truthful Image of aborted baby saved a baby!!
Dear Friends:
This morning on the sidewalk we witnessed a number of mother taking
their babies to death. But we are so happy to report that one baby was
saved because of the truthful image of an aborted baby. As this mother
was driving into the driveway with her boyfriend I was holding a large
sign of an aborted baby from the Center for Bioethical Reform. The
mother hid her face under her coat when she saw the image. As she was
getting out of the car to go into the building she was crying and I
called to her saying if you can't look at this picture you can't do
this, because this is what they are going to do with your baby!!!
We thank the Good Lord because some time later she came out and talked
to one of our adoptive couples who was there for the first time today.
What encouragement from God for this couple!! She talked to them about
adoption, gave them her name and number and said when I saw the picture
of the aborted baby I knew I couldn't do it!!!!
Thank you Holy Family and all the angels and saints who are always with
us on the sidewalks guiding us and strengthening us to do this the most
important work in the world!!
Love and prayers to all our supporters!!


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