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Unity is nessicary to end abortion

Turn your sharpend tounges against abortion.

by: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

"A house devided within itself cannot stand."
People, Swollow your pride and shut the hell up.
Your witty banter between each other, the silent unspoken insults, the insinuated attacks upon each others personalities and views, its all pathetic.
Its getting everyone quickly to nowhere.
Here is a question for you.
If you were to take every post used against each other (which recently has been hundreds) and take them back changing them to posts debating the morality of abortion and used them against a poster who is pro-choice, do you not think you together would probably have changed that 1 persons mind.
Now, in a year that 1 person gets pregnant and she is now pro-life, or at least less in favor of abortion.
All your senceless banter (including mine) could have been used to save a life instead of gaining nothing other then animocity between each other.
When God gave the gifts of the spirit, he gave SEVERAL.
Not 1.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are meant for witness.
Works of mercy, physical or spiritual, are many. Not 1.
The beatitudes , commandments, ect. Many.
Not 1.
You all want to act like there is 1 right way to do things.
1 right way to believe.
1 right way to end abortion.
1 right way to change peoples minds.
ect.
No.
You have 5 fingers, different lengths, in different places. They WORK TOGETHER.
I do not give a flying care if you permit violence or are against it.
Here is the bottom line.
Children.
Are.
Dieing.
Unborn children are being murdered.
Innocent life is being taken.
The only way this will end is if you all stop fighting each other.
You are gaining nothing, making no ground with each other.
I saw someone say some crap like "Oh yoda I can't believe you feel that way, I used to respect you."
Well too bad. Too bad.
Because weather or not you respect someone else, doesn't change the good they can do against abortion.
Your PERSONAL OPPINIONS DON'T MEAN SQUAT.
Swollow your pride, look at the bigger picture.
I do NOT doubt that if 1 or 2 abortionists (or even 0) were killed, while people were praying at some other clinics, and others were using gory graphic images at the rest, that AMAZING good would be done at all.
And you cannot deny that not matter what your stance on the morality of it is.
The bottom line is that abortion needs to end.
And all of us bickering on which way is best means nothing.
Because we will never convince everyone else.
And just because street counciling is best for me, doesn't mean you will be any good at all at it.
Here is my point.
Get off your computers.
Get to your nearest abortion clinics, and bring friends.
Get to your local pro-life planning meetings.
Start speaking out loud, at work, at church, at school, wherever about abortion.
When you change your life to be focused on abortion, you will make an impact.
You are wasting everyones time, including your own, arguing online.
Or even Get ON your computers, but talk to abortion minded women, e-mail senators and congressmen, contact local pro-life leaders, debate morality of abortion.
But stop wasting your time and sharpend tounges on each other.
You do nothing but cause devision within the pro-life community.
"Let there be no Devision among you."
I don't think that was an option.
For Christ I Stand,
Keith

reply from: bradensmommy

You can't see me but I'm applauding you right now...you rock!

reply from: yoda

Same here, Keith. Well said!
Have you heard the story of the five blind men trying to describe an elephant? Each of them touches a different part, and so has a different impression of what that elephant looks like! What we've had here on this forum lately is like those five blind men slugging it out with each other over who is right!
Even I, a humble agnostic, can see that you are right!

reply from: bradensmommy

Definately! The name calling, harrassment, ect is very juvenile. It is sad that so-called Christians talk and think the way they do on this forum. I highly doubt Jesus would approve of the way they act. The ignore button is very useful and I use it very wisely...I think that is why the board has been so quiet and nice for awhile!

reply from: JohnGlenn

In a war, to win awar, there is more than one attack front. Some are diplomates, some bomb, others are land troops, others are in jets, others at sea, all in the same war. As you say- working together.
I don't think you will find any of the posters who accept equality for the unborn to have attacked any of the assignments given to others as you have seen against the assignments given to those who advocate an equal defense for the unborn as is acceptably offered to the born. You see, we all work in those other fields.
Paul Hill was a sidewalk troopsman for years before being transfered to the infantry.
Rachell Shannon was a rescuer of unborn children intervening for years prior to her arrests for shooting the infamous George Tiller once in each arm in an attempt to stop his killlings.
Malavasi prayed his rosary at the abortuary and later obeyed his own Bishop who asked for whoever was fireboming killing centers to turn themselves in. He submitted in obedience. You wil find that those who accept the positions that others are condemning to be some of the most submisive to their faiths.
James Kopp a good Catholic, prayed the rosary and rescued for many many years with the Lambs of Christ and worked with Mother Terresa's group, learning to further die to self, he submitted to his faithful calling to be a sniper and shot the abortionist for which he is imprisoned for. He is suspected of shooting and injuring 3 or 4 other abortionists in Canada. Malavasi and his wife Marra were later arrested for aiding and abading their good Catholic friend, James Kopp while he was on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted List. Why would they risk going back to prison? Because they are in submission to God, their Commander and Chief and committed to the babies.
Do you or these others really think James Kopp wanted to spend the rest of his life in prison? Does anyone think that Rachell Shannon would confess to additonal charges of firebombings of abortion chambers in Wash, Or, and Ca when she was getting out for the shooting of baby killer George Tiller if she were not submitted to obeying morality? She confessed when the FBI tried to lay these charges on another man, Bell out of Sacramento. She confessed- adding a 20 year Federal sentance to her at the time, almost completed 11 year Kansas sentance. These people are under Godly submission to do die to self and do what is right.
These submitted self sacrificing people get attacked by the brethren, the media, other prolife groups and orgs, many times their families, posters on this board attack them for their actions- yet none of the advocates of equality have attacked what other DO in action for the babies, not sidewalk counseling, voting, Pregnancy Care Centers, or ANY OTHER ACTION associated with defending the unborn child.
The division over acceptable action is not from advocates of equality for the unborn; we accept all action; but from baby discriminators.

reply from: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

Yoda :
Agnostic, Catholic/Christian, atheist, scientologist (haha).
It matters not to me. I'm glad to have someone with the wisdom you have causing movement and thought within the pro-life community.
Bradensmommy :
Thank you for your support,
Hopefully eventually we won't have to ignore anyone, instead we can work through the differences. In the meantime I appreciate that you are making choices to avoid fights or arguements hence lessening the split within our community.
JohnGlenn :
Thank you for the information on those people, and good points were made within each refrence. It's exactly what I meant when I was talking on another thread and said that those people , no matter how you feel about the morality of their actions, cannot be called cowards or any other slanderous name.
Lets hope that we can help the "pro-life" people who still can't understand how deep the unseen descrimination runs to realize whatever they might be missing.

reply from: faithman

Unity for unity's sake is a stupid ploy that only benifits those who want to manipulate and control. All thru history, it has been the very few, who swam up stream inspite of popular opinoion that changed things. All luke warm feel good will do is assure another 34 years of child killing. It will stop when it is made to stop. SOOO lets just keep on losing as long as we look good doing it. I am not unified with god hating pagans, as it is this group that are mainly behind abortion on demand in the first place. I am not unified with passive aggressives who want to make the "movement" all nice and assure the womb children to be killed. If we lose the voice of desent, we loose all hope of effective action every being taken, and fall into the pro-abort trap of always having to play nice, while they know such attitudes will never foster enough resolve to stop them.

reply from: JohnGlenn

Mark Crutcher, the owner of this forum wrote an article years ago about the "common ground" and "seamless garment" groups that so many prolifers fall for. It was a great article. I wish I had a copy or link to it.
The "common ground" and "seamless garment" groups even look for unity with the baby killers.
I don't know about others- but I have no unity with baby killers.

reply from: yoda

I think that "unity" is an unreachable goal anyway. More realistic would be a "cease fire agreement" between those opposed to abortion.

reply from: MattG

Amen, Keith. Thank You.

reply from: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

Faithman :
Then have unity for the unborns sake.
If we have to swollow our pride to end abortion, isn't it worth it?
I'm not asking for popular oppinion.
In fact I clearly stated in the topic description that unity doesn't require agreement within the unified group.
My entire post pointed the fact that different people will do things differently.
My post was simply for the point that if we fight each other, we aren't going to do crap against abortion.
Yet you felt the need to fight me on it.

I didn't ask for lukewarm feel good anything.
The Lord hates those who are lukewarm.
But fighting each other when we all have the same end purpose in mind is what will assure another 34 years of killing.
Hate to break it to you bud, but you aren't going to be the great hero who ends abortion by yourself. You won't even do anything to end abortion.
God will end abortion, if he chooses to use you to help end it then wonderful.
But You, nor I, will do it on our own.
Please show me where I asked to lose. Or where I mentioned anything about looking good, or doing ANY of this for show.
Please show me where I asked you do be unified with God Hating pegans or anyone who backs abortion.
My intent is unity with the purpose of ending abortion.
I cannot understand why there is any need to twist my intention.
If that was not your intent, then I apologize.
If someone wants to assure the unborn are killed, they are not with our movement. Nor have I asked you to stand with them.
I am clearly Pro-life, I am clearly against abortion, and I am clearly only asking for unity between those whose final intent is the end of abortion.
If our voice does not stand as one, it doesn't make enough sound to be heard.
And I haven't met one pro-abort who likes to play nice.
And I am not asking us to play nice. Nor Have I stated such a thing at all.
My intent with this post was very clear, and all I can question is weather or not you were looking to argue something, or just misunderstood me.
The only thing I asked was for us to stop attacking each other.
Attack abortion, not the people fighting abortion.
I don't care HOW you fight abortion.
Just do it.
JohnGlenn
I'm sure it was a wonderful article that I would agree with totally. I've seen mark speak in person here in MD (if I am thinking of the same mark crutcher as you).
I have asked for no seamless garmet nor common ground.
Instead I clearly stated we all will start and go from different places.
I only want everyone to end at the same No-abortion-no-matter-what end.
I certainly did not ask for unity with baby killers.
Yodavater
If unity was unreachable then why did Jesus clearly demand it.
And Even if one does not believe Jesus was any more then man, clearly He was a very wise man. My question stands.
In this circumstance though, unity and a ceasefire in the context in which I mentioned are nearly one and the same.
I am not asking for everyone to be the same, do the same, think the same, pray the same, debate the same, fight abortion in the same way.
I certainly AM asking that those who fight abortion stop fighting others who fight abortion.
The pro-aborts have such great ease spreading lies and rumors, and working against pro-lifers simply because there is very little dispute among them.
And for those who do disagree on it, they are too lazy/self-ish to fight over it.
For whatever reason, and there are many different ones, they WANT abortion to stay legal. And weather they work together, or just don't fight each other, they have kept it legal for 34 years.
We have to swollow our pride, our thinking of I know best, and just agree to focus.
Abortion will not end as long as everyone is doing it their own way.
A rowboat spins in the water if each person paddles on their own rythem and direction.
Im not asking to have everyone sit in line and row the same way.
I'm simply asking people to stop hitting each others paddles.
The Pro-life movement does NOT have far to go (As was stated by Mark Crutcher in the talk I heard him give).
So, even if I row and move us an inch, and then you row and move us an inch, we are still moving closer to the end.
For Christ I Stand,
Keith

reply from: RejectViolence

Mark Crutcher and numerous other major pro-life leaders say we are clearly winning. What do you know that these acknowledged pro-life experts don't?
Also, many pro-death leaders say the pro-lifers are winning. Again, what do you know that they don't?

reply from: yoda

As long as 4,000 unborn babies die every day in this country, we are losing, even if we are gaining in the polls. Poll numbers don't replace baby's lives.

reply from: faithman

Mark Crutcher and numerous other major pro-life leaders say we are clearly winning. What do you know that these acknowledged pro-life experts don't?
Also, many pro-death leaders say the pro-lifers are winning. Again, what do you know that they don't?
I know that 3-4000 womb children will die this very day, as "leaders" cockadoodle doo about how we are winning. I know that many so called leaders care more about their pocket book, and the money they make of the "movement" than taking effective action to stop the slaughter. I know that punks like you are the problem, not the answere. The diarea that spews out of your mouth means shure death for millions of womb children. Run along home to mommy passifist, this issue needs more who have actually grown a nut sack, and are men enough to stand.

reply from: terry

Mark Crutcher has two articles on his Blog that deal with the issue of unity. One is a current article called http://markcrutcherblog.com/blog/index.cfm (March 2007). The other is the Common Ground / Seamless Garment article that John Glenn talked about in an earlier post. That one is http://markcrutcherblog.com/blog/permalinks/2006/04/is in the archives section under April 2006.

reply from: RobertFerguson

Mark Crutcher and numerous other major pro-life leaders say we are clearly winning. What do you know that these acknowledged pro-life experts don't?
Also, many pro-death leaders say the pro-lifers are winning. Again, what do you know that they don't?
How are dead babies 'winning'?
It is no suprise to find such statements in a "unity" thread.

reply from: RobertFerguson

From the article on brains falling out:
"Of course, the Seamless Garment is just one of many problem areas associated with this common ground nonsense. But the bottom line is always the same: when we take the bait the Choice Mafia wins."

reply from: yoda

Yep. We need to call a truce on the antiabortion/prolife side, and remember who the real enemy is: every proabort that lives and breathes. Heck, we're not even their real enemies, are we? The proaborts aren't trying to kill us, are they? They're all about killing babies, remember? We're just the annoying flies that buzz around them while they do their dirty work. No, the real "fighting and killing" going on is that which takes place inside the abortuaries, and the babies are getting the worst of it by 4,000 to 0 a day. The babies badly need someone on their side, because they are taking a pounding from their true enemies.

reply from: RejectViolence

Not surprisingly, violence advocates like yourself virtually always resort to personal attacks and name-calling.
What have YOU done to stop those 3 to 4 thousand babies from dying today?
You're ALL TALK. You preach violence to save the babies, while sitting safely behind your computer at home and doing NOTHING. You think your personal attacks on genuine pro-lifers on an internet forum are going to stop the babies from dying?!
It appears that you are merely attempting to goad OTHERS into committing violent acts. Therefore, I must presume you are an agent provocateur for the pro-abortionists.
"An agent provocateur is a person who secretly disrupts a group's activities from within the group. Agents provocateurs typically represent the interests of another group, or are agents directly assigned to provoke unrest, violence, debate, or argument by or within a group while acting as a member of the group."
Complete article at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

reply from: yoda

Reject, whoever you are, you really ought to find out to whom you are speaking when you claim someone is sitting "safely behind their computer and doing NOTHING". I happen to know Rick, and he sure as hell doesn't fit that description.

reply from: RejectViolence

Like Faithman, you are ALL TALK.
ANYBODY can TALK about committing violence to end abortion. But TALK does NOTHING to stop the killing, and violent acts will only play into the hands of the pro-abortionists. They will be able to paint all pro-lifers as violent fanatics, and draconian new laws protecting the abortionists will be passed.
Non-violent pro-lifers like Mark Crutcher are putting the abortionists out of business. Advocates of violence will help them STAY in business.

reply from: faithman

Not surprisingly, violence advocates like yourself virtually always resort to personal attacks and name-calling.
What have YOU done to stop those 3 to 4 thousand babies from dying today?
You're ALL TALK. You preach violence to save the babies, while sitting safely behind your computer at home and doing NOTHING. You think your personal attacks on genuine pro-lifers on an internet forum are going to stop the babies from dying?!
It appears that you are merely attempting to goad OTHERS into committing violent acts. Therefore, I must presume you are an agent provocateur for the pro-abortionists.
"An agent provocateur is a person who secretly disrupts a group's activities from within the group. Agents provocateurs typically represent the interests of another group, or are agents directly assigned to provoke unrest, violence, debate, or argument by or within a group while acting as a member of the group."
Complete article at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur
Just for your information punk, I have stood behind signs at abortion mills ,since 1991. I have been the main player in development and production of the I AM A PERSON cards and posters. We have produced over 100,000 post cards since 2000 , much of the money to do so out of my own pocket. I have personally sent many on this forum a sample on request, and have sent several posters out to front line activists. I have driven Operation Recue truth trucks in the past and to this day have an open invite to do so. I hand out literature at parades, fourth of july celebrations, and festivals. I mail out cards to churches and politicians, and have e-mailed thousands of baby images all over the world. I am not goading anyone to do anything, but niether will I tolerate lite in the loafer momma's boyz such as your self to run your mouth at those who have the stones to act on their beliefs. All I here from you is your passifist propaganda against those you havent the mental capasity to understand. You are a pip squeak who is guilty of the very thing you accuse others of. The worst thing for pro-life is that it should ever become monolithic. If you want a cease fire, keep your mouth shut about that which you obviously don't understand.

reply from: faithman

Gosh yoda, guess I haven't fussed with you in a while. But thanks for the kind words anyway. This is a fight. We need to start acting like it. The best thing I can do for the movement is give it a good hard punch in the stomach to wake it up. I will continue to challenge everyone for if we can't even tolerate a little scrap amongst us, we will never reach enough resolve to put an end to it. Everything we do should be challenged. If it stands it is worth doing. If it is proven to be faulty, then we owe it to the womb child to try something else.

reply from: yoda

I'm a bit leary of this one, Rick. He says "But TALK does NOTHING to stop the killing", and then he says "and violent acts will only play into the hands of the pro-abortionists." Well, if "TALK" does nothing, and "violent acts" are no good either, what is left for us to do? Strange logic...... It seems like he's trying to goad someone into some kind of violence, while at the same time telling us it will be pointless anyway. Strange..... and just at the time when we were trying to call a cease fire on the forum...... here he comes in with both six guns blazing..... odd timing, eh?

reply from: RejectViolence

Your un-Christian demeanor is typical of those advocating violence.
That's all you've done? You sure haven't been at it very long.
I've been engaging in pro-life activities since the early 1970's. I've done prayer vigils, picketing and sidewalk counseling at abortion mills for over 30 years.
I'll put out over 100,000 pieces of literature in less than two years.
I was handing out literature at Christian conferences, state and county fairs, parades, festivals, holiday celebrations etc.---LONG before you were.
I paid the entire cost of the booths at many of those events, and supplied all the literature, books and videos.
I've done literature mailings to churches, politicians and too many individuals to count.
I contact my legislators frequently on important legislation, and initiate e-mail action alerts to advise friends and associates to contact their legislators in regard to abortion-related legislation.
I've written letters to the editors of major newspapers and magazines. I engage in internet activism almost daily.
I support pro-life candidates, both monetarily and in the voting booth.
I give monetary donations to multiple Crisis Pregnancy Centers, and provide them with such things as books, pamphlets and videos---all at NO cost to the centers.
I give monetary donations to national and state pro-life organizations.
In some years, my out-of-pocket expenses have been as much as TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS.
I've done more for the cause and understand more than you ever will, and I have no intention of shutting up.
You don't understand that violent acts HELP the abortionists, because they are then able to paint all pro-lifers as violent nuts. Violence will also lead to draconian legislation that will hinder and even stop many legitimate, non-violent methods of opposing abortion.
Like a typical advocate of violence, you have turned on the very people you should be networking with.
To win this epic battle, we must win the hearts and minds of the youth---as well as the adults who are undecided on the issue. Education is the key. Violence will be our undoing.

reply from: RejectViolence

I clearly stated that talking about committing violent acts will do nothing to stop the killing. Also, I never suggested we just idly talk about the problem.
Read the post I made immediately before this one. It will outline direct non-violent action anybody can take to help end abortion. That's not mere talk, that's ACTION.
Judging by your over 8000 posts here, it appears you do more sitting behind the computer talking about the problem than anything else.

reply from: RejectViolence

You're the one using strange (i.e. warped) logic. Two posts prior to this one, I clearly outlined my non-violent direct action agenda to help end abortion. That's not goading anybody to violence or idle talk, that's non-violent and legal ACTION.
I take non-violent direct action, while advocates of violence merely talk about the problem and attack people they should be networking with.

reply from: faithman

Your un-Christian demeanor is typical of those advocating violence.
That's all you've done? You sure haven't been at it very long.
I've been engaging in pro-life activities since the early 1970's. I've done prayer vigils, picketing and sidewalk counseling at abortion mills for over 30 years.
I'll put out over 100,000 pieces of literature in less than two years.
I was handing out literature at Christian conferences, state and county fairs, parades, festivals, holiday celebrations etc.---LONG before you were.
I paid the entire cost of the booths at many of those events, and supplied all the literature, books and videos.
I've done literature mailings to churches, politicians and too many individuals to count.
I contact my legislators frequently on important legislation, and initiate e-mail action alerts to advise friends and associates to contact their legislators in regard to abortion-related legislation.
I've written letters to the editors of major newspapers and magazines. I engage in internet activism almost daily.
I support pro-life candidates, both monetarily and in the voting booth.
I give monetary donations to multiple Crisis Pregnancy Centers, and provide them with such things as books, pamphlets and videos---all at NO cost to the centers.
I give monetary donations to national and state pro-life organizations.
In some years, my out-of-pocket expenses have been as much as TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS.
I've done more for the cause and understand more than you ever will, and I have no intention of shutting up.
You don't understand that violent acts HELP the abortionists, because they are then able to paint all pro-lifers as violent nuts. Violence will also lead to draconian legislation that will hinder and even stop many legitimate, non-violent methods of opposing abortion.
Like a typical advocate of violence, you have turned on the very people you should be networking with.
To win this epic battle, we must win the hearts and minds of the youth---as well as the adults who are undecided on the issue. Education is the key. Violence will be our undoing.
You are just simply wrong. It took a civil war to stop slavery, it took a revolution to loose us from the teirany of britain. I will not discredit the efforts of those who actually shut clinics down and save children now. Education is for the future which I am involved in. I too have carried the full load to put a booth in the local fair for many years. But if this nation were truely righteous, and we really cared about the womb child, every clinic in america would burn to the ground this very night. The fact that you have been at your tactics for 30 years is proof that you are a failure, and continue to promote pro-life failure just because you say so. Reality does not back up what you say. When a clinic burns down, others must close because of higher insurance. When an abortionist is forced to retire by defensive action, the abortion industry is hard pressed to find a replacement, and many others quit in fear of their lives. Your passifist propaganda just does not line up with the reality. I could care less what the media thinks, and I do not hide cowardice behind a presumption of christian faith.

reply from: faithman

Yah, another phony who just likes to hear the sound of their own voice. What I have advocated, and am actively involved in, is the most peaceful measure of anyone I know. I advocate the use of I AM A PERSON, which works in every venue, and does not put the mushy middle off as far as winning them to the cause. But I can not in good conscience condemn the actions of PAUL HILL or anyone else that has sacrificed their freedom to save the life of a womb child. To do so is to agree with Planned Parenthood that the womb child is a second class citizen, and does not deserve the same consideratiion as a born child. I don't think that I would brag about 30 years of action that has done nothing to even slow down the abortion industry very much at all. All this false pravodo about winning is to keep the mindless pro-life sheep encouraged enough to fill the pockets of phony leaders with pro-life gold. Yah to take punks like this seriously is the best assurance of another 35 years of dead womb children.

reply from: faithman

Some of his trash makes him supect as a double name poster as well. seems he wants to echo his own crap back at himself.

reply from: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

Alright.
Watching everyone bite at each other, it kind of proves my point.
Reread your posts everyone, and think about how little you have done to change each others minds. think about how THAT TIME could have been used to change the minds of people like wycked and other pro-choicers on this forum ALONE.
We are not CLEARLY winning reject, like they said 4000 a day.
We are doing well on the political and movement front, yes.
We are rallying more support for life, and lessing the vicegrip on abortion, yes.
What we have is proof that we are on a slow road to ending abortion.
We can't get stuck in that, because we need a fast road.
A slow road means more dead innocents.
Faithman.
I do not know you, I don't know what good you have done in the pro-life community. I do know that I (being honest) am put off by your name being assosciated with the language you use to defend your case.
I try to keep an open mind, and assume the better of other pro-lifers, but all your post did to me was make it harder for me to take you seariously.
This is an example of the many bad sides of argueing with other people who want the same end.
You aren't going to change rejects mind, he won't change yours.
That does nothing to prove a point or validate your point. It simply says to me that you have a temper and resort to personal attacks like the pro-aborts do.
I've seen the quality of your other posts, and that is why I know your better then this post.
Argueing amongts each other brings out the worst in us, and does NOTHING for our cause.
Again, im not asking for :unity for the sake of unity, or an open mind till our brains fall out.
Call it a ceasefire like yoda, or call it swollowing your pride like I do.
I don't care.
If we keep pissing each other off, if we keep insulting each other, and fighting within our own group, then THAT will put off ending abortion.
Dead babies aren't winning. Sadly you will find that ideal in every place, not just a unity thread. I don't see how the concept of unity FOR THE SAKE OF THE UNBORN is a hard concept.
Two army squads are going to attack the same enemy camp.
One thinks they should gas the camp and take P.O.W's.
The other says they should just go in and flatten the camp.
While the two groups disagree, they end up killing each other.
Two groups with the same final intent (the end of the enemy camp) are now all dead, and the enemy camp is still continuing.
Im not asking everyone take a side on HOW to do it.
But if you cannot agree, at LEAST do not attack others on how they do it.
And robert I think I've proven that I deserve a little bit more respect where I stand then to assume this applies to me or my ideals :
Yodavater :
I think you and I are in a similar stance on this subject, we word it differently though.
My point exactly. I'm saying stop fighting each other to prove who is smarter. Start fighting the REAL enemy.
RejectViolence :
You condemn faithman for personal attacks, then continue by attacking him personally.
I don't see the logic.
Everyones little fights between each other here are my exact point.
There is SO MUCH MORE we can do with our time then try to demean and insult the attempts of other prolifers.
I don't give a flying F*** HOW you work against abortion. I really don't.
Any work against abortion is good work.
so lets get off our high horses, find people who we CAN work with , and just let GOD change the minds of others we believe are wrong in the pro-life community.
Since we sure as hell aren't going to change each others minds as proven in : RejectViolence V Faithman

reply from: faithman

I could care less if anyone likes me. The best way I have found to get folks fighting, is to start one. This is a fight. And anyone who agrees with planned parenthood that a womb child is a second class citizen, and does not deserve the same protection as a born child is on the wrong side. They are every bit the scum bag pro-abort as the president of Planned Parenthood.

reply from: RejectViolence

I engaged in no inappropriate name-calling, nor did I use any vulgar language. The language I used would be completely acceptable when speaking to women or at church. "Faithman" cannot make the same claim, after his name-calling and vulgar tirades.
So quite frankly, I don't see your logic.

reply from: RejectViolence

You've allegedly been in the pro-life movement since at least 1991, and as you yourself keep screaming, a few thousand babies per day are still dying. So if I'm a "failure", you are too. Your call to violence is an utter failure also, since violent methods haven't worked.
However, unlike you, I don't see dedicated pro-lifers as "failures" or "losers". In fact, that is how the pro-aborts frequently describe us. Why am I not surprised to hear you describing honorable, peaceful pro-lifers as "failures".

Virtually all of the abortionists who were shot, went right back to work killing babies. Like George Tiller, just to use one example. While they were out recovering, pregnant women simply went elsewhere for their abortions. Violence didn't work.
Even when the abortionists were killed, somebody else simply stepped in and took their place. Tiller hasn't lost a beat, and his insurance rates haven't stopped his lucrative baby killing business. He still gives tens of thousands of dollars to pro-abortion candidates.
To win this battle, we must win the battle for the hearts and minds of America's youth, and the adults who are undecided on the issue. Violence is a dead-end, that will result in draconian legislation and police-state tactics being used against non-violent pro-lifers.

reply from: RejectViolence

Mark Crutcher and numerous other major pro-life leaders say we are clearly winning. What do you know that these acknowledged pro-life experts don't?
Also, many pro-death leaders say the pro-lifers are winning. Again, what do you know that they don't?
I know that 3-4000 womb children will die this very day, as "leaders" cockadoodle doo about how we are winning. I know that many so called leaders care more about their pocket book, and the money they make of the "movement" than taking effective action to stop the slaughter.
Your blatant attack on Mark Crutcher, who is the owner of this forum and very possibly the most effective pro-lifer in the country, has been noted.

reply from: RobertFerguson

Is this how you answer the question about how dead babies are a sign of winning? With false accusations? You do know that bearing a false witness is oneof God's Top Ten yes? You need to repent of this serious sin before God and man

reply from: RobertFerguson

TOOT TOOT GOES YOUR HORN

reply from: RobertFerguson

This one speaks of that which he does not know and bears false witness then pridefully lists his "accomplishents" as if we should be impressed with his dirty rags- Too bad he robs himself of any heavenly reward- that is IF he gets to heaven with all the breaking of # NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

reply from: RobertFerguson

I never said nor implied any such thing-I did not even post or reply to you in this thread- or on this subject I spoke to Terry about Mark Cruther's articles- And I am not sure that you have or it is even possible to prove much in the short time you have been here- As has been pointed out to you I do not speak against the tactics that others use (after all I have at some point or now still use any of the myself) to stop abortion- it is the detractors of an equal defense that do this- not advocates of equality in defense aka defenders- Please do not apply (errant) assumptions to what I say- If you are confused or in doubt ask me- I'll clear it up-

reply from: faithman

This one speaks of that which he does not know and bears false witness then pridefully lists his "accomplishents" as if we should be impressed with his dirty rags- Too bad he robs himself of any heavenly reward- that is IF he gets to heaven with all the breaking of # NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
So now he is into entrapment. And I can't say I didn't see it comming. First he asked what I have done, and accused me of only sitting behind a computer, and then acusses me of pridefully listing the information that refutes his false accusation. You asked punk, or I never would have listed the information. Then he falsely accuses me of directly slandering mark crutcher. That never happened. Mark is one of the few leaders that gets it. ?He has sent boat loads of literature to us for our fair booth with out charge. They also have freely given us a ton of T-shirts. I never made any statements directly towards Mark or LDI other than high praise. So what we have here is another passifist word twister who cherry picks peoples words, and uses things out of context to make false accusations. No wonder he cares sooo much what the media thinks. He has adopted their tactics. Out and Out propaganda passifist lies, and twisting of words out of context to slander. This all to cover up he is actually a pro-abort who believes the pre-born child does not deserve the same defence as a born child.

reply from: yoda

Two posts to answer one? Have you never seen the edit button on your posts?
To respond to your innuendos in your previous post, I am not here to establish my credentials, nor will I list my activities as Rick has done in response to your slander. And if you think I've posted too many times on this forum, then perhaps you will stop posting soon?
I was encouraged by your excellent choice of Joe Scheidler's article on violent versus non-violent ProLife action, and I hope that you do not slip back into more personal attacks now.

reply from: yoda

Rick,
I really like the article he posted of Joe Scheidler's. "Respect the men who have committed violence to stop baby killing, understand their protective motives, but disagree with their choice of tactics".
Now there's a REAL man.

reply from: faithman

That is also the stance of Mark Crutcher. Mark never condemned Paul Hill, and has also amitted on one of his life talks that abortions go down, and there are fewer abortionist because of defensive action. The propaganda of the passifist is just plain wrong. The "movement " has been castrated to the point that men are expected to act like women. We have allowed the pro-aborts to makes us affraid to act because of what they might think.

reply from: yoda

I think that Mark and Joe are pretty much on the same page in this regard.

reply from: JohnGlenn

You're forgetting the third squad who wishes to pray about it for another 34 years all the while condemning those DOING something and praising baby saving efforts of other DOING something

reply from: JohnGlenn

Reject is doing an awful lot of cockadoodle dooing

reply from: JohnGlenn

Chuck Spingola has this to say about preaching the truth:
A preachers delivery or "concern" for his hears is irrelevant in regard to the effect of his words. The apostle Paul makes this point quite clear in the following scriptures.
Phl 1;14
"And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear
Phl 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will
Phl 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds
Phl 1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Preaching the Gospel is like no other calling. Preaching addresses eternal matters. Heaven and hell are the only options as an eternal abode. Those who have deceived them selves, soothing their conscience with lies have many "Christians" to assist them. Baby murder, Sodomy, adultery the list goes on have become expectable in many Churches. The world and the church are near indistinguishable in regard to morals. They have morphed into one state sanctioned entity. Enemies of Christ.
Suddenly, outside in an uncontrolled setting comes the preacher. Darning strange clothing eating strange food and crying aloud warnings against the wicked. Every lie they have crafted to find comfort from an evil conscience is now suddenly exposed . This preacher did not come to join in but rather stand, save God himself, alone against the workers of iniquity. He is a man whom God loves and often only God. He knows hardship, treachery and disappointment with out measure. Men like this have turned the world upside down through history. They are few.
Paul the apostle explains the difficulty of such a life. He spoke from experience. He suffered more than the rest. Men who feel they have a calling to preach and step out in faith, testing the waters should have the respect of good men. It is disserved. They are pulled from all sides with discouragement from many voices.
I recently read your instructional article entitled
"Practical points on Open-Air Preaching and Witnessing" on your Faithful Solder School of Evangelism web site. I observed many of the proof text were misapplied so naturally was the advice offered. May the Holy Sprite open the eyes of our understanding on this most important topic Open-air preaching.
To more fully understand and account for the starkly different attitudes in the hears of both debater and preacher let us start by define the two words;
debate
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v.intr.
2.
To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
v.tr.
2.
To dispute or argue about.
n.
1.
A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
Preach
Strong's Number: 2784
to be a herald, to officiate as a herald
to proclaim after the manner of a herald
always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed
to publish, proclaim openly: is something which has been done
used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers
</TD
Gospel Preaching has nothing to do with debating.
-A preacher will proclaim a message. End of mission. How it is received is out of his hands.
-The debaters mission is over when both sides of the debate have done their best to convince their opponent(s). With that said, sadly, in many cases it is unclear as to who "won" the debate. It is subjective.
-A debate requires two or more participantance who will try in turn to present information designed to convince their opponent and audience of the rightness or truth of his/her chosen position. A good debater, much like a good lawyer, knows the subtleties of his/her presentation are as important as the actual information disseminated. Diplomacy, demeanor, countenance and even body language can sway the outcome one way or the other.
-The preacher, regardless of his demeanor or delivery will be hated by his hearers because like Jesus he too will testify that their works are evil Jn 7:7; 15:18
Paul the apostle charges his son in the Lord, Timothy with these solemn words
2Ti 4:1 ¶ I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
All men know God intuitively
The Scriptures declare that all men know God intuitively. Some men will just resist acknowledging him and his righteous law more than others. This alone explains the hatred displayed toward Jesus and his open-air preachers. Sinners will forever debate. You can hear the same arguments they attempt to use against God and their own conscience. To debate that which is already known is an exorcise in futility.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
"He, that being often reproved hardeneth [his] neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." (Prov 29:1)
An important point. The Holy Scripture tells us: God is love. I John 4:8 [KJV]: "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."
Under this broad canopy of love are many attributes or characteristic that are expressed in many different ways depending on the situation. Longsuffering, patience, forbearance, meekness, compassion, mercy, justice, judgment, equity, wrath and fierce anger are all attributes of Gods love. For instance Jesus was compassionate to the multitude that followed Him and fed 5,000 men with loaves and fishes because He saw them as sheep without a shepherd. But, He was angry with those who would make His Father's house a den of thieves and with zeal overturned their booths and violently whipped them out of the temple. Let us imagine for a moment that Jesus responded to these two groups in the opposite fashion. Jesus whips out of the temple them which follow him for three days as sheep with out a Shepard. Then feds 5,000 men with loaves and fishes because they made his father house a den of thieves. A father who beats his obedient son yet is "quick to hear and slow to speak" to the rebellious son is a more basic example to which many can relate. These two examples are a perversion of the Divine character. If this distortion or warping of the divine nature is permitted in the minds or intellects of Christian and embraced, it only follows that the Christians would then be worshiping a god of their own creation. A false god.
Different circumstances demand different expressions of love. Let us keep this in mind when discussing Open-air preachers.
"Our first responsibility is not to make converts, but to uphold the honor of God in a world given over to the glory of fallen man. No matter how many persons we touch with the gospel, we have failed unless, along with the message of invitation, we have boldly declared the exceeding sinfulness of man and the transcendent holiness of the Most High God. They, who degrade or compromise the truth in order to reach larger numbers, dishonor God and deeply injure the souls of men."
A .W. Tozer The truth, to those who hate it, is "offensive". Preachers tell the truth "deliberately"
As to the motive for doing so, it is beyond our knowing.
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
1 Cor 4;4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
1 Cor 4:5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.
Most will just not understand "spiritual things"
1 Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned." Kill the messenger and you kill the message. Or in this case vilify and assassinate the preachers character and thereby the message. But let the preachers be encouraged, you are in good company. John the baptizer and Christ were also vilified.
Jesus responds with righteous indignation and a warning!
Mat 11:18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children"
Mat 11:20 ¶ Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. A contextual and "balanced" view of II Tim 2:22-24
2Ti 22; Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart
2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Meek doctrinal instruction is reserved for "them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart". But those who "gender strifes" with their "foolish and unlearned questions avoid" In other words Do NOT DEBATE them.
The law is made up of two (2) parts, precept and penalty. Among those who acknowledge the use of the law in evangelism conspicuously leave out the penalty aspect. Precept with out penalty is simply counsel or advice. Like saying to the rebellious child thou shall not have another cookie. The rebel does not care about your advice. But then add the penalty if disobeyed and you will find a converted child. In other words use both parts of the law. Johnny don't you take another cookie or I will whip our ass good. I suspect the law will have its perfect work when both precept and penalty are used. In a preachers case preach on both aspects of the law
The truth, to those who hate it, is "offensive". Preachers tell the truth "deliberately"
As to the motive for doing so, it is beyond our knowing.
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
1 Cor 4;4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
1 Cor 4:5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

reply from: JohnGlenn

You think that our advocating an equal defense for the unborn is a secret? I a proudly an agent provocateur for the unborn's equality!! I make no secret about it!!

reply from: JohnGlenn

So do you think we should unify with pagans and queers or not?http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/8383/ & www.plagal.org/

reply from: faithman

Chuck Spingola has this to say about preaching the truth:
A preachers delivery or "concern" for his hears is irrelevant in regard to the effect of his words. The apostle Paul makes this point quite clear in the following scriptures.
Phl 1;14
"And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear
Phl 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will
Phl 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds
Phl 1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Preaching the Gospel is like no other calling. Preaching addresses eternal matters. Heaven and hell are the only options as an eternal abode. Those who have deceived them selves, soothing their conscience with lies have many "Christians" to assist them. Baby murder, Sodomy, adultery the list goes on have become expectable in many Churches. The world and the church are near indistinguishable in regard to morals. They have morphed into one state sanctioned entity. Enemies of Christ.
Suddenly, outside in an uncontrolled setting comes the preacher. Darning strange clothing eating strange food and crying aloud warnings against the wicked. Every lie they have crafted to find comfort from an evil conscience is now suddenly exposed . This preacher did not come to join in but rather stand, save God himself, alone against the workers of iniquity. He is a man whom God loves and often only God. He knows hardship, treachery and disappointment with out measure. Men like this have turned the world upside down through history. They are few.
Paul the apostle explains the difficulty of such a life. He spoke from experience. He suffered more than the rest. Men who feel they have a calling to preach and step out in faith, testing the waters should have the respect of good men. It is disserved. They are pulled from all sides with discouragement from many voices.
I recently read your instructional article entitled
"Practical points on Open-Air Preaching and Witnessing" on your Faithful Solder School of Evangelism web site. I observed many of the proof text were misapplied so naturally was the advice offered. May the Holy Sprite open the eyes of our understanding on this most important topic Open-air preaching.
To more fully understand and account for the starkly different attitudes in the hears of both debater and preacher let us start by define the two words;
debate
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v.intr.
2.
To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
v.tr.
2.
To dispute or argue about.
n.
1.
A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
Preach
Strong's Number: 2784
to be a herald, to officiate as a herald
to proclaim after the manner of a herald
always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed
to publish, proclaim openly: is something which has been done
used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers
Or in this case vilify and assassinate the preachers character and thereby the message. But let the preachers be encouraged, you are in good company. John the baptizer and Christ were also vilified.
Jesus responds with righteous indignation and a warning!
Mat 11:18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children"
Mat 11:20 ¶ Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. A contextual and "balanced" view of II Tim 2:22-24
2Ti 22; Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart
2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Meek doctrinal instruction is reserved for "them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart". But those who "gender strifes" with their "foolish and unlearned questions avoid" In other words Do NOT DEBATE them.
The law is made up of two (2) parts, precept and penalty. Among those who acknowledge the use of the law in evangelism conspicuously leave out the penalty aspect. Precept with out penalty is simply counsel or advice. Like saying to the rebellious child thou shall not have another cookie. The rebel does not care about your advice. But then add the penalty if disobeyed and you will find a converted child. In other words use both parts of the law. Johnny don't you take another cookie or I will whip our ass good. I suspect the law will have its perfect work when both precept and penalty are used. In a preachers case preach on both aspects of the law
The truth, to those who hate it, is "offensive". Preachers tell the truth "deliberately"
As to the motive for doing so, it is beyond our knowing.
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
1 Cor 4;4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
1 Cor 4:5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.
You must have me confused with another. I have not posted anything about open air preaching. I do not engage in such activity, as I am not called to it. I have gone out and prayed for those who are called to it. I witness one on one, and have done alot of literature distribution. Maybe I missed something in your post, or you were addressing someone other than me.

reply from: JohnGlenn

Barnett Slepian never killed another baby- Abortionist David Gunn never killed another baby- Steven Rogers never help kill another baby- James Britton never killed another baby George Wayne Patterson never killed another baby- the virtual reality you live in is only in your mind?

reply from: faithman

Barnett Slepian never killed another baby- Abortionist David Gunn never killed another baby- Steven Rogers never help kill another baby- James Britton never killed another baby George Wayne Patterson never killed another baby- the virtual reality you live in is only in your mind?
He is just like all secular humanist passifist eletist. They tink everything they say is right simply because they say so. Fact don't really matter, as long as they can show just how much smarter they think they are than anybody else

reply from: JohnGlenn

Barnett Slepian never killed another baby- Abortionist David Gunn never killed another baby- Steven Rogers never help kill another baby- James Britton never killed another baby George Wayne Patterson never killed another baby- the virtual reality you live in is only in your mind?
He is just like all secular humanist passifist eletist. They tink everything they say is right simply because they say so. Fact don't really matter, as long as they can show just how much smarter they think they are than anybody else I wish to see Reject back up his claim- even listing wounded baby killers is always a good thing-

reply from: faithman

Barnett Slepian never killed another baby- Abortionist David Gunn never killed another baby- Steven Rogers never help kill another baby- James Britton never killed another baby George Wayne Patterson never killed another baby- the virtual reality you live in is only in your mind?
He is just like all secular humanist passifist eletist. They tink everything they say is right simply because they say so. Fact don't really matter, as long as they can show just how much smarter they think they are than anybody else I wish to see Reject back up his claim- even listing wounded baby killers is always a good thing-
These pathetic passifist are every bit as dishonest as any pro-abort. They are either aware of or tuley decieved in their thinking , and have become the best friend Planned parenthood has in the so called "Pro-life" movement. As long as we passively allow, what we should be fighting to stop, the womb child is in great danger from those who claim to be their advocates.

reply from: RejectViolence

You appear to be a violence-advocating pagan with little understanding of Christianity.
I've been a Born Again Christian for about 35 YEARS. Even IF I had bore false witness, ALL my sins are forgiven by Christ Jesus. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
ALL Born Again Christians WILL inherit the kingdom of God.
John 3:16---What don't you get?

reply from: RejectViolence

According to your violent pagan propaganda, Joe Scheidler is a "passifist" who is "just plain wrong"!
Scheidler CLEARLY rejects violence. So when you attack myself and others, you also attack Joe Scheidler, who's done more for the pro-life movement and has saved more babies than you ever will.

reply from: RejectViolence

I never said you've posted too many times on this forum. I simply pointed out that it's quite obvious that you are ALL TALK. Babies are dying every day, but you choose to spend most of your time merely TALKING about the problem on an internet forum. That time could've been better spent doing sidewalk counseling outside an abortion clinic, convincing women to let their babies live.
People who do the least to save the unborn are almost always the staunchest advocates of violence. People like Joe Scheidler and myself engage in non-violent direct action against abortion virtually every day, while advocates of violence spend most of their time on internet forums merely TALKING about the problem.
Please save your lectures on "personal attacks" for Faithman, who has made more personal attacks than anybody, and he also uses vulgar language. The Bible states that the Lord despises a vulgar mouth. And Faithman has used his vulgarity in an open forum, where women and minors are present.

reply from: yoda

Posting on this forum only takes me a few minutes a day, does it take you longer? Perhaps you are slow? To say that I spend "most of my time" on an internet forum, and that I am "all talk", simply shows that you have no regard for the truth, and delight in slandering people you do not know. You are a small and vindictive person.
And you should be ashamed to compare yourself to Joe Scheidler. I know Joe Scheidler, and believe me, YOU ARE NO JOE SCHEIDLER!!

reply from: faithman

Number one: schiedler has never condemned Paul hill personaly even though he does not agree with what he did. On the contrary, he understands the motive of defensive action, even though he doesn't agree with the tactic.
[.Number 2 if the loud mouth mammas boy would simply go to the I AM A PERSON thread on this forum, he would find a picture of yoda holding an I AM A PERSON poster in front of the local abortion clinic in Tenn. Something I have had others tell me he does on a very regular basis.
li]Number 3: It is blaspheming the Holy Spirit to deny what God has done in anothers life. To call a brother in Christ a pagan, so to deny the work of Christ in their lives, and is calling them a fool, for the fool has said in his heart there is no God. The scripture says for one to call a brother such is in danger of hell's fire
Number 4: To condemn defensive action is to say that the womb child is a second class citizen, and does not deserve the same protection as all born inocent people. The passifist on this forum who condemn defensive action are the biggest freind Planned Parenthood has. Either the womb child is a person that deserves our protection, or they are what Planned Parenthood calls them, just a blob that can be disposed of down the drain. You simply can not call it murder then deny protection from the murderer. The reason pro-life fails miserably is because we keep trying to have it both ways, and it don't work. You cannot agree with your enemy and expect to win.

reply from: yoda

Rick, I think the saddest thing about this "Reject" guy is that he can't read. If he could, he'd read that post of mine in response to Joe's article, in which I agreed with everything Joe said..... and for that matter, so does everyone else on this forum, as far as I know. None of us has said anything that disputes anything Joe said, or vice versa, but "Reject" just can't see it. His little feelings are hurt, and he has to get revenge.

reply from: faithman

I don't see it exactly like Joe. Though I wouldn't advocate out right the use of defensive force, I do think it a legitamit tactic. One should be very careful, and not just jumb into defensive action. If you do not have the expertees, or a good plan to reasonably get the job down, and walk away free, then one should not take said action. We have enough soldiers in jail already. I do hope and pray for a peaceful end. I still believe the best alround method is the I AM A PERSON. Not all can afford ultra sound equipment and trained personel to run it. And the constant exposier of "R" rated dead baby pictures around families with small children puts far to many off. But sowing to the future does nothing to directly stop the thousands that have already died this very day. It is a fact that areas with no clinics have lower abortion rates. Every clinic in America should burn to the ground. Virtual millions of babies would be saved that way. I have nothing but the deepest admiration for those who can effectively destroy the killing centers. Dispite what the passifist say, they save untold thousands of womb children when the clinics go down.

reply from: RobertFerguson

wrong again
one must repent and confess his sin to be forgiven- no repentance- no forgivness You bore a false witness and have shown no remorse

reply from: RobertFerguson

"and for that matter, so does everyone else on this forum, as far as I know. None of us has said anything that disputes anything Joe said, or vice versa" Yoda- I disagree with some of what Joe said there-that article was written prior to Paul Hill BTW-

reply from: yoda

Okay, I spoke too soon, but maybe that's a good place for a dialog to begin? I still say there's more there that everyone agrees with than not.

reply from: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

RejectViolence
It has been clearly stated that not Everyone is cut out for activism in the same way.
First of all, you DO NOT know what yoda, or anyone else, has done with their lives. So you have no place to judge their actions or any place to claim where their heart is. Only God knows the true heart of man. You aren't God.
Secondly Even IF yoda only worked on this forum for his activism (Which I doubt) He could be doing WAY more good then someone who sidewalk councils and SUCKS at it. So back off.
Do not judge lest ye be judged. This is my entire point on unity.
We don't have to agree, but we HAVE to stop attacking each other.
Look at the amount of wasted time on this debate attacking each other while there are pro-choicers on this forum who NEEDS thier minds changed.
Faithman : You said we are failing because we want to do things both ways.
I agree partially. I would LOVE it if we all agreed in ONE way to go about ending abortion, and stuck with it. But That wont happen. My point on unity was similar, though we wont all agree on ONE way to go about it, we certainly should stop attacking either others methods and SUPPORT each others methods, furthering the results done by each method. Every method against abortion, not matter how simple or complicated is justified by the fact that it is AGAINST abortion. Any maybe some people are only cut out to do it a certain way. So my point was never to side with passifists, or to find unity with baby killers. My point was only that there needs to be some sort of cohesiveness with activists in the pro-life community.

reply from: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

So do you think we should unify with pagans and queers or not?http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/8383/ & www.plagal.org/
I believe that if the queer or pegan is against abortion as a PERSON AGAINST ABORTION, and not as a HOMOSEXUAL against abortion or a PEGAN against abortion, then fine.
If their heart and mind is truely against abortion, and not on promoting their own cause, then they certainally can help us. Its up to God to change their hearts to Him.
So, If someone is a queer or pegan, and wants to come to a clinic with me, so be it.
But if they come wearing a rainbow shirt, or a pentagram necklace (or goats head, or triune, or godess, ect) then I will ask them to remove it or leave.
Anyone who is against abortion is a friend of mine ON THE ABORTION LEVEL.
I might not agree with their personal stances on other issues, but thats a debate for another time.
God has used all sorts of godless people in the past to do his work. They just didn't know it till later.

reply from: JohnGlenn

So do you think we should unify with pagans and queers or not?http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/8383/ & www.plagal.org/
I believe that if the queer or pegan is against abortion as a PERSON AGAINST ABORTION, and not as a HOMOSEXUAL against abortion or a PEGAN against abortion, then fine.
If their heart and mind is truely against abortion, and not on promoting their own cause, then they certainally can help us. Its up to God to change their hearts to Him.
So, If someone is a queer or pegan, and wants to come to a clinic with me, so be it. there you have it faithman
I have never seen the fags show up without their homosexual agenda -This is their solution http://www.plagal.org/pictures/march4life2000/censored.jpg BTW
why should they leave (they won't remove it) while you get to stay?
Whoever wants to be a friend of this world is an enemy of God. James 4:4
you appear to be making that time when they show up at the abortuary with the fag flag [and I don't blame you btw] http://www.plagal.org/pictures/march4life2003/AndyS.jpg PLAGLA's favorite pro-life drag queen at the March for Life PLAGAL folks marching with their fag banner http://www.plagal.org/pictures/march4life2003/group2.jpg that's not being debated here- unity with the pagans and homos is tho-
One does not need to ride Balam's ass for it to speak- and the ass did not promote being an ass like this ass does http://www.plagal.org/pictures/march4life2000/before.jpg

reply from: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

Just because you have never seen the 'fags' show up without their homosexual agenda, does mean there arent some who don't.
And they should leave because they are detracting from the important of the abortion issue, and turning it into a homosexual publicity stunt.

I Believe what I said was
I do NOT recall any desire or statement of being a friend of this world.
Nor do I appreciate the insinuation as such.
I clearly stated at the start that I welcome them ONLY if they come WITHOUT those things.
I didn't state that they often do, Or that I have had anyone do as such.
It was a simply statement.
If they come as PEOPLE against abortion, not GAYS or PEGANS against abortion, but simply as PEOPLE, then I would welcome them.
So all the pictures you are showing me don't fit, It was a hypothetical situation I was asked.
I was asked WOULD I, and I responded I WOULD IF.
Sorry If I wasn't clear.
I didn't request or say we should assist anyone or any such thing.
If someone is promoting being an ass as such, then they clearly did not fit into the group which I stated was acceptible.
I completely understand and agree with your stance on THE PEOPLE IN THE PICTURES POSTED, and PEOPLE LIKE THEM.
I simply said anyone who is NOT doing those things, those are who are welcome.
We are all sinners, If their sin is that they are currently lost in peganism or homosexuality, what makes them different then you are I?
You and I are both as lost in others sins. Pegans and Homosexuals can Go to heaven if they repent and change their ways, and the best way to help them do that is to bring them to things like praying outside clinics and pro-life activities, because that is where God can use MANY people to help change them.
As long as they are there without those signs like what you showed in the picture, then alright.
For Christ I Stand,
Keith

reply from: yoda

Keith, isn't it sad when a so-called "prolifer" challenges another prolifer to compare "credentials" with him?
Keep up the good work!

reply from: bradensmommy

I'm sick of seeing the word fag, that really irritates the hell out of me. Homosexuals and Pagans believe in God. Don't be ignorant. Don't tell me that they do not. Have you read about the pastor who tried and tried to get himself to "change his homosexual ways" by praying. It didn't help because HE KNEW HE WAS GAY. Get over yourselves. You are not God you have no right to judge.
I'm so sick of your Bible thumping ways. I should post this picture I found and maybe you can see how damn hypocritical you are. (and believe me I see alot of it from a few of you)
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/armyguyssweetie/444212014_m.gif

Get off your damn high horse for once.

reply from: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

Yoda It is indeed sad to see prolifers try to challenge each others creds and one-up each other.
But one can only learn from ones mistakes, at least I hope so.
First off, please note I put ' ' around fags, I was making a point.
I don't agree with homosexuality and peganism, but I still attempt to avoid slander and namecalling.
Secondly being homosexual isn't a sin. That is even the Stance of the Catholic church (as far as my understanding goes, I could be wrong.) Instead it is GIVING INTO THE TEMPTATION of homosexuality (aka living the homosexual lifestyle) that is wrong. Its the same as any other sin, the temptation isn't the sin.
and Third , Pegans don't believe in God. Hence, pegan.
For Christ I Stand,
Keith

reply from: bradensmommy

I think you need to better understand your knowledge of religion. I studied Wiccan/Pagan and I do know that some do believe in God. Some believe in more than one God, where do you think Mother Nature derived from? She was a goddess to some.
Can you help giving in your temptation of heterosexual ways? Of course not. Praying your butt off won't change your heart and the way you feel about the same sex or the opposite sex. There are alot of people who say they are Christian and try to preach to people about things that you know they do themselves. Thats called hypocrisy my dear.
There are some things you cannot change about your thinking and there are some people who cannot be changed. You can preach on and on but not everyone wants to listen and not everyone cares. I'd like everyone to understand that abortion is wrong but I can't change everyone's mind. I cannot sit there and tell my gay best friend that what he is doing is wrong. I don't understand why people say they are Christian but go about the whole thing so wrong and so demanding. My husband's grandma is a Witness who tries to lay her religion on me. I'm not an easy person to brainwash. She doesn't like alot of things but she also was a hypocrite as well.
I just want you to understand that what someone does is their own business. You cannot tell someone what they can and cannot do. All we can do is educate them and try to help them not go about it like some *cough*NONFaithman*cough*.
All I ask is enough of the "you are going to hell if you are a "fag"" or "you are going to hell if you don't do this or this" because its not going to get you or anyone else anywhere. People aren't understanding that this is a pro-life forum not Preaching to the Choir 101.
Thanks.

reply from: Teresa18

When it comes to homosexuals, I believe they need to be treated with dignity and compassion, and I don't believe in calling them deragatory names like fag. However, regardless of whether they are oriented/inclined to such behavior from a young age, due to environmental circumstances, or even choice (I do know of some cases, and I can provide a link), it doesn't mean that it is moral to practive homosexual behaviors. I realize people will do what they choose behind closed doors, but such behavior doesn't need to be legislated through marriage, adoption of children, teachings in schools, and lastly in speech. I've gotten into many heavy arguments in the subject before on another forum, but I want to keep it simple.
As far as pagans, they believe in a god or collection of gods and goddesses, but they do not believe in God (as in the God worshipped by Christians).

reply from: Hereforareason

Thanks for starting this thread Keith.
I agree with your original post. One of the things that drives me nuts here is the personal attacks that don't help anyone. By no means should we "give in" or "tip toe" around issues. But I think we can debate the facts and try to reason with people out of love, rather than hate. True, if Tiller ever showed up on this forum it would be pretty hard......
But I have more respect for a person's arguments if they are not stooping to the level of a lot of pro-aborts in useless personal attacks.
Amber

reply from: faithman

Fags suck, pagans hate God, secular humanist want to destroy america and set up a global government. All without Christ go to hell. Did I miss anybody? Now Get some I AM A PERSON CARDS AND LET"S SAVE WOMB CHILDREN!~!!!

reply from: RejectViolence

Yoda the hypocrite blathers on, plus proves his obvious ignorance.
Both by legal and dictionary definition, slander CANNOT occur via the printed word. Slander is something that can only be done via the SPOKEN word.
So you have borne false witness against me.
And I NEVER claimed that I have done as much for the pro-life movement as Joe Scheidler, so you have once again borne false witness. Anybody with reasonable intelligence and reading comprehension, understands that I only mentioned myself in the same breath as Scheidler, to point out the indisputable fact that we are BOTH advocates of nonviolent means to end abortion.
Rather than engaging in self-righteous invective, why don't you actually DO something to help save unborn babies. All you've proven so far is that you're virtually all talk.

reply from: RejectViolence

Oh my! Yoda held up a sign! Now THAT is really going to stop abortion---NOT!
You mean to tell me that you both stand right outside those abortion clinics HOLDING SIGNS, while babies die? Come on, where's that "defensive action" you're always blathering about?
It appears that your name-calling like "loud mouth mammas boy" best applies to YOURSELF! Perhaps it is your own guilty conscience that leads you to engage in name-calling.
Thanks for proving my point about Yoda, as well as yourself. Apparently you're BOTH self-righteous hypocrites who are virtually all talk.

reply from: faithman

It is a proven fact that holding signs up in front of clinics does indeed stop some abortions. Yoda has stated several times that he does not think deffensive action a very effective tactic, but understands the reasoning behind it, and does not condemn those who do take such action.
I think defensive action is a very effective tactic to save womb children today. Defensive action is taken by those who have given up any chance of having a normal life,and must keep their identity secret because of those who would sell them out for bounty money. I am too visible on the radar screen to be effective in defensive action. That is why most of my efforts are supling materials to the front line troops such as missionaries to the pre-born, rock for life and such. I would do the same for punk mouthed mommas boyz such as yourself if I am suplied with a snail mail address.

reply from: RejectViolence

Please provide documented evidence to support your baseless proclamation that violence is a "very effective tactic".
It hasn't been very effective against Tiller, who has been shot in both arms and had his clinic bombed.
As Joe Scheidler has correctly pointed out, violence only gives the pro-aborts martyrs, and makes them just that much more fanatically dedicated to their cause. It also often results in draconian legislation that hurts legitimate efforts to stop abortion.
Anti-abortion violence HELPS the pro-aborts far more than it hurts them.
Thanks for the offer of materials, but I myself have been providing pro-lifers with educational materials for about twenty years longer than you have. So please give the materials you would have given me to somebody else on the forum.

reply from: faithman

Please provide documented evidence to support your baseless proclamation that violence is a "very effective tactic".
It hasn't been very effective against Tiller, who has been shot in both arms and had his clinic bombed.
As Joe Scheidler has correctly pointed out, violence only gives the pro-aborts martyrs, and makes them just that much more fanatically dedicated to their cause. It also often results in draconian legislation that hurts legitimate efforts to stop abortion.
Anti-abortion violence HELPS the pro-aborts far more than it hurts them.
Thanks for the offer of materials, but I myself have been providing pro-lifers with educational materials for about twenty years longer than you have. So please give the materials you would have given me to somebody else on the forum.
Mark Crutcher said on a life talk that though he disagreed with defensive force, it was a fact that many doctors were chosing not to do abortion out of fear. It is a fact that clinics are closeing because they can not find abortionist. It is one of the main problems the abortion industry has. I have personaly heard a former abortionist say that he quit because he was affraid of being shot. Even if you do not believe in defensive action, it is a very useful tool to make the abortionist fearful, and it is useful in discouraging future abortionist from choosing that career path. And I have already give materials to many who have requested them for free from this forum. It is your arogant pideful grudge holding that keeps you from getting some as well.
And it would have been very effective against Tiller if the shots had found his forhead. Shannan was trying to be merciful, so we have had 14 years more of dead babies. Had Tiller died, many babies would have been saved.

reply from: FaithWithoutWorksIsDead

Reject.
Maybe you are not intelligent.
OR certainly you aren't.
An arguement between pro-lifers ENDED, an arguement based off a UNITY thread, and you had to be a reject and start up the fight again.
Had to get the last word eh? Be a big man.
Damn fool.
Reject, being so technical as using an exact definition to entrap someone into bearing false witness so you can comfort yourself with the thought that you are saved because you do no such thing.
You are a fool.
Starting dropped fights, and doing it off the premise of attacking a fellow Christian and Pro-lifer.
STOP.
I don't care what you have done, your crown in heaven is quickly become sheetmetal. Your BRAGGING about what you have done, while attacking the efforts of others whom you DONT EVEN KNOW.
Refusing to accept generosity out of PRIDE (which is denying someone the right to do a good deed, which is a sin in and of itself) and bragging about the amount of time you have been fighting abortion.
Bragging about how long you have been fighting abortion is STUPID, it means you SUCK and have yet to make an impact because abortion is still here.
I have NO respect for you right now, starting an arguement that was dropped.
YOU COULD have grown a brain and started debating pro-choicers on the forum, but maybe you just realized that you probably suck at it.
Faithman
Yes, holding up signs is fine.
everyone expect this fool knows it.
Can I ask you one favor, stop argueing with him.
Be the bigger man and let him ramble on like a fool.
He is advocating the exact split this thread was made to work AGAINST.
Reject
you stated that bombing clinics and violence HELPS pro aborts.
I promise you that it doesn't help pro-aborts NEAR as much as 'pro-lifers' like you who intent to cause a split within the pro-life community.
you are simply causing fights, not making any progress.
STOP..
Now come on.
Seariously.
Reject, you say that the name calling others do is due to personal problems, then you basically say "I know you are but what am I".
Can we grow up here?
Stop refusing others generosity out of pride, stop bragging about what you have done as if you deserve a metal, and stop casuing devisions within the pro-life community.
You say you are against violence, then try to tell faithman he sucks because he HASN'T used violence.
You are simply trying to get someone to tell YOU that YOU are better then faithman, because you feel small.
Your NOT better then faithman, and personal attacks won't change that.
Maybe if you contribute something posative and helpful to this forum like he has done hundreds of times in the past, you can have a SHOT and becoming somewhat helpful to the pro-life cause.
Dang.
Now stop this pathetic arguement, and turned your sharpend tounges AGAINST ABORTION.


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