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Let's take the pro-life forum back!

by: thecatholicamerican

This has been something to read a lot of this on this forum in the last few days. Some of what has been on here make you worry about what it is that some people think Christianity is. I think that some of what I find here is disturbing however.
First off, Christians do not and should not ever advocate violence. Secondly, no one else should either. I'll be the first to say that some of what I read here makes me very angry and I am as guilty as anyone of responding to it. I read Robert Ferguson and what I found and find is repugnant. I dont know who the poster Robert Ferguson is and I dont care. But I will say that what this person is posting is quite disturbing.
No one should hold someone up as a hero who shoots people in cold blood. No one should, nor could ever use the Bible to justify violence against anyone. In the wrong hands anyone can distort the word of God. A lot of theological study and historical context needs to be known to understand the Old Testament bloodletting that occurs in its pages.
All that said, I want to make it clear that I think that we all need to unite in the common cause that draws us here. The defense of the unborn. I should and we should all recognize the importance of that unified front. I dont expect people to think that being a Christian is a requirement to be pro-life, but I do hope that everyone here will recognize the importance of the voice of Christians as being pro-life. If I have thrown my beliefs around too heavily and anyone was offended, I apologize. I am well aware that one would need little time dig up angry words that I have spoken. I hope that the past can be put in the past.
For those that come and continue to weild fire and brimstone about carelessly, I would hope that you would recognize why this forum exists, or move one about your business. The man I recognize as my savior made few claims about himself, but one of the few that he did was his claim to meekness and being humble of heart. Jesus Christ was not a hot-head that liked to tell people off. I should not be so either.
I would ask my fellow pro-lifers, Christian, atheist or otherwise, please do not respond to extremism and violent zealotry. Let's take this forum back.

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

I have been greatly alarmed and shocked these last few days by those advocating violence or cheering individuals who do commit violence to stop the killing of preborn children.
It is the role of government to protect children, both born and preborn. That is not the role of any individual, with the exception of their own children that they have been given authority over. The individual's role is to obey the government.

reply from: thecatholicamerican

It doesn't matter what document is quoted to back up the justification for violence either, (the Bible, the Qu'ran, whatever); a violent action and threat is a violent action and threat. The pro-life movement must be a peaceful one, if it is to have any legitimacy at all.

reply from: faithman

What a crock of it. Then what is the 2nd amendment for? What about Romans 13? So we should just stand by and watch someone rape woman? We should do nothing to stop a predator take a child from a play ground? WE THE PEOPLE ARE THE GOVERNMENT!!! We the people have the right and the duty to protect those who can not defend themselves. You are the immorale ones. You would have us completely at the mercy of evil doers. According to you only pagans then can be police, or military. We don't live in LALA land. We live in a world of evil men. Some who wear colars and rape boys, then have thier pasifist congregations cover for them, insted of bringing them to justice. Justice that should come from 12 fellow citizens, not a pro-abort judge.

reply from: Scottishhighlander

Dear Mr CatholicAmerican. You should really check out your Catholic history more. What about Jesus Turing over tables and using a cord of whips on the money channgers. Also What else would you have done to stop Hitler? Many Catholics fought in that war to stop the Nazi's. Also read Romans 13 about Christians using violence. I am Catholic and have studued this topic alot. But one thing is sure it can only be used as a last Resort when all other ways have been tried. So don't ever say Christians should never use violence. Would you Protect Yourself ,Family,And your country. Scottishhilander! Gods Peace!

reply from: thecatholicamerican

I said that Christians should not advocate violence. One instance of Jesus showing ager does not make Jesus the angry and violent savior. A few slaps on the back of a whip of cords does not mean that Christians should take up a vigilantism as a method of solving problems. War on the other hand is a sometimes regrettable but necessary action and certainly must be a last resort. A violent action must be the outcome of having exhausted every other peaceful outcome. Violence must not be a form of coersion to achieve a desired means.

reply from: faithman

So we are to suffer another 30-40 years of child killing? All 50 states have laws that allow the protection of life and property by deadly force. You are the friend of planned parenthood. You agree that a womb child is a second class citizen, and deserve no protection from the evil of abortion. We are talking about the right to defend life here. And yet you make the womb child a second class citizen that deserves nothing but quiet bead counting. I do not advocate violence, I advocate the morale defence of a helpless child. If you don't know the difference, you are the one who is imorale.

reply from: Scottishhighlander

Ok! So we Agree! I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were saying Never use violence in any circumstances. And yes you are right even more when it comes to the Abortion issue. All means have not been exausted in outlawing Abortion. It is being Heard in the Highest court now. So to Use Violence at this point in time would would not be justifed. I hate violence! I am ex-military and ex-law enforcement so i know alittle about how bad Violence is. We must do everything we can to avoid it if Possible. Scottishhighlander. Gods Peace!

reply from: godsfriend

that one person a few years back that snipered a whole bunch of people, he's my hero! i strive to emulate him.
RIP! KILL! TEAR!

reply from: Shiprahagain

I have been greatly alarmed and shocked these last few days by those advocating violence or cheering individuals who do commit violence to stop the killing of preborn children.
It is the role of government to protect children, both born and preborn. That is not the role of any individual, with the exception of their own children that they have been given authority over. The individual's role is to obey the government.
Good thing you guys weren't around during the underground railroad or in Nazi Germany. Yeah we should avoid violence -- but for how many decades more? Re-read your Bible if you don't think God's ppl ever correctly advocate violence.

reply from: ChristianSoldier

Which one of you is going to volunteer to do something besides run your mouths about violence?

reply from: godsfriend

aight. who do you want dead?

reply from: ChristianSoldier

I don't want anyone dead. I want to see the forum direct its energy to solutions, not the idiocy of constant blather about violence for the sake of posturing.

reply from: godsfriend

yes you do. it's not just talk talk and more talk, i'm offering my services! but what do you do? turn away the only piece of action offered in this whole thread

reply from: faithman

Romans chapter13 verses 1-4 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. Preamble of Constitution We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDACE When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. - Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world. He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good. He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them. He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures. He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people. He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within. He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands. He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers. He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries. He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance. He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures. He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power. He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us: For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States: For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world: For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury: For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences: For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments: For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever. He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us. He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation. He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands. He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people. Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred. to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends. We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. - And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. - John Hancock New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton Massachusetts: John Hancock, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry Rhode Island: Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery Connecticut: Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott New York: William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris New Jersey: Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark Pennsylvania: Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross Delaware: Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean Maryland: Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton Virginia: George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton North Carolina: William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn South Carolina: Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton Georgia: Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

reply from: godsfriend

oh my god! it's that gigantic piece of writing! it makes me laugh. and i thank you for that, kind sir!

reply from: RobertFerguson

Exactly!
these guys prefer dead Jews to dead Nazi agressors.
Dead blacks to dead abusive plantation owners.
but worse yet- they prefer a false god of pasivism to the God of war.
I just don't get it. We can have BOTH the Lion of Judah AND th Lamb of the world. One has to wonder why they reject the wrath of God.
Consider this, if the threat of the wrath of God were not real... then what good would His mercy be? What would it being saving us from?

reply from: RobertFerguson

You said you were leaving. Was that a lie? Have you repented of this? How many hail mary's does a good catholic like you have to do to no longer be a liar. Is Mary your co-redemptrist?

reply from: RobertFerguson

One instance of Jesus showing anger?
really? Only one? You had best read your Bible again.
The Bible records Jesus over turned the temple moneychangers twice. Once at the beginning of His ministry and once later. As a good Jew, He was required to go to Temple. Scholars believe that this was an annual occurance of Jesus over turning in violent yet righteous anger every year.
It is also written that there are not enough books in the world to record all that Christ did and said.

reply from: faithman

Mr. Ferguson spends a great deal of his life and treasure on the streets. We were in the city of New Orleans [pre-huricane] and one night were witnessing in the french quater in front of a transvestite bar. I also have spent a large part of the last 14 years behind signs, and passing out literature, and manning fair booths. I also have bought property across the street from a planned parenthood clinic. I thi9nk you be the one with diaria of the mouth. Back at ya dude. What do you do beside post drival on the net?

reply from: Zeke

Exactly!
these guys prefer dead Jews to dead Nazi agressors.
Dead blacks to dead abusive plantation owners.
but worse yet- they prefer a false god of pasivism to the God of war.
I just don't get it. We can have BOTH the Lion of Judah AND th Lamb of the world. One has to wonder why they reject the wrath of God.
Consider this, if the threat of the wrath of God were not real... then what good would His mercy be? What would it being saving us from?

reply from: Zeke

Pasifism is an ungodly herecy. You's probably prefer we still be under British rule too.

reply from: Zeke

Some folks would probably prefer we still be under British rule.
Pacifism is a heresy!

reply from: faithman

Oh come on dude. We wouldn't want to take the "pro-life cottage industry" away from flip the switch benham now would we? That is an awful big mouth to feed. If abortion were to end, he would have to get a real job. You just need to be a good little lemming and hop over the pasifist clift of futility with the rest of the deceaved at OSA.

reply from: yoda

You cannot take back that which you do not own, nor that which has not been taken from you. Those whom you color as extremists have as much right as anyone to post here as long as the owners of this forum allow them.
We all have our opinions about how best to go about reducing elective abortion in this country, and none of us has any authority to tell anyone else how to go about it.
For myself, I have always kept to the non-violent path, and have no plans to go off that path. I see it as the most effective way for me to spend my time and resources to reduce abortion. But for those that see 4,000 baby deaths a day as too "violent" to be tolerated, I cannot and will not try to impose my opinions on them.
Some of the proaborts are fond on taunting us with stuff like "If I believed what you say you believe, that 4,000 babies were being killed every day, I'd be down there busting heads and putting those clinics out of business. So why aren't you? Aren't you brave enough? Are you all talk and no action to save so many poor little babies?"
How do YOU answer that taunt? I know for me, I have to bite my tongue to keep from agreeing with them.
So don't look down your nose at people who feel more strongly than you or I do about stopping this wholesale slaughter. Talk is cheap, you know, and the blood of the babies runs just as red as yours and mine.

reply from: yoda

Apparently, many people like them were around.......

reply from: yoda

And you know something about the people you're talking about..... exactly how?

reply from: faithman

You cannot take back that which you do not own, nor that which has not been taken from you. Those whom you color as extremists have as much right as anyone to post here as long as the owners of this forum allow them.
We all have our opinions about how best to go about reducing elective abortion in this country, and none of us has any authority to tell anyone else how to go about it.
For myself, I have always kept to the non-violent path, and have no plans to go off that path. I see it as the most effective way for me to spend my time and resources to reduce abortion. But for those that see 4,000 baby deaths a day as too "violent" to be tolerated, I cannot and will not try to impose my opinions on them.
Some of the proaborts are fond on taunting us with stuff like "If I believed what you say you believe, that 4,000 babies were being killed every day, I'd be down there busting heads and putting those clinics out of business. So why aren't you? Aren't you brave enough? Are you all talk and no action to save so many poor little babies?"
How do YOU answer that taunt? I know for me, I have to bite my tongue to keep from agreeing with them.
So don't look down your nose at people who feel more strongly than you or I do about stopping this wholesale slaughter. Talk is cheap, you know, and the blood of the babies runs just as red as yours and mine.
" "

reply from: JohnKWalker

If any one of these sociopaths (such as the one who created a thread to detail his personal arms collection) actually perpetrates any violent or illegal act, the owners of this website (regardles of whether they are aware of it) will be subject to civil liability, and even criminal prosecution, for permitting this sort of outrage to go on unimpeded.

reply from: faithman

If any one of these sociopaths (such as the one who created a thread to detail his personal arms collection) actually perpetrates any violent or illegal act, the owners of this website (regardles of whether they are aware of it) will be subject to civil liability, and even criminal prosecution, for permitting this sort of outrage to go on unimpeded.
YA YA YA. So it is an outrage to exersise the 2nd amendment? You just blowing smoke.

reply from: yoda

The owners of this website are quite capable of defending themselves and their property. But thanks for your concern.

reply from: RobertFerguson

"Take back" the forum? You're all talk aren't you? No, you really aren't all talk....in fact
You won't talk at all when it comes to:
Small Victories helps Arkansas Police prosecution of child rapist
50-year-old Jefferey Scheshier raped minor &forced the girl to get rid of the incriminating evidence
http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=2322&enterthread=y
">http://www.prolifeamerica.com/...2&enterthread=y
Small Victories' Ultrasound Van
The Ultrasound Van has been a vital resource outside this abortion mill and the devil knows it.
Not one word from any of those who are bias against the worth of the preborn child to receive an equal defense justifiable to the born child.
Faith without works is dead.
Your lack of works and silence in these threads speaks volumes of yoru commitment and faith.
You need to get rid of the nic Christian Soldier if you are not going to ustilize it.

reply from: Ieatbaby4din

More people have died in the name of God than for all other reasons combined. Christianity and Catholathism are what many use to justify there actions of hatred and violence and a way to proliferate there message of hatred and bigotry all over the world. The ability of an organization or a person to drive the minds of groups that need only be told what to do and what to thing is frightening to me. An individual is more commonly the smartest part of a group. It is when you look at the group as a whole that u start to see the true stupidity.
Hence the term "mob mentality"

reply from: yoda

Oh look, it's ole home night again....... all the chickens are coming home to roost.......

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

You're right. These guys are just shooting off their mouths. They know that reality dictates not committing violence. Shiprah said I should reread my Bible. I don't read of Paul or the other Apostles resorting to violence in the book of Acts. Neither did I see Jesus drawing a sword or putting anyone to death. Our example, Jesus, submitted himself to Roman rule. He paid his taxes and did not rebell against the unrighteous finding of law against him (death on a cross). Paul did vigorously defend himself against the charges made against him; but he did so within the law. He didn't resort to violence. He used his appeals, such as appealing to Ceasar. Though trained lawyers argued vigorously against him, Paul argued his case back under the Roman judicial system.

reply from: ChristianSoldier

And you know something about the people you're talking about..... exactly how?
Rephrase the question. It makes no sense.

reply from: ChristianSoldier

"Take back" the forum? You're all talk aren't you? No, you really aren't all talk....in fact
You won't talk at all when it comes to:
Small Victories helps Arkansas Police prosecution of child rapist
50-year-old Jefferey Scheshier raped minor &forced the girl to get rid of the incriminating evidence
http://www.prolifeamerica.com/...2&enterthread=y
<br ">http://www.prolifeamer...om/.....ad=y
Small Victories' Ultrasound Van
The Ultrasound Van has been a vital resource outside this abortion mill and the devil knows it.
Not one word from any of those who are bias against the worth of the preborn child to receive an equal defense justifiable to the born child.
Faith without works is dead.
Your lack of works and silence in these threads speaks volumes of yoru commitment and faith.
You need to get rid of the nic Christian Soldier if you are not going to ustilize it.
You talk a good game. Talk is cheap.

reply from: RobertFerguson

"Take back" the forum? You're all talk aren't you? No, you really aren't all talk....in fact
You won't talk at all when it comes to:
Small Victories helps Arkansas Police prosecution of child rapist
50-year-old Jefferey Scheshier raped minor &forced the girl to get rid of the incriminating evidence
http://www.prolifeamer...om/.....ad=y
"><br ">http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=2322&enterthread=y
<br ">http://...feame...m/.....ad=y
...>
Small Victories' Ultrasound Van
The Ultrasound Van has been a vital resource outside this abortion mill and the devil knows it.
Not one word from any of those who are bias against the worth of the preborn child to receive an equal defense justifiable to the born child.
Faith without works is dead.
Your lack of works and silence in these threads speaks volumes of yoru commitment and faith.
You need to get rid of the nic Christian Soldier if you are not going to ustilize it.
You talk a good game. Talk is cheap.
Yet you won't even give that to these peaceful prolife threads that pointed you to.
Return the nic Christian Soldier. Choose something more appropriate like armchair warrior.

reply from: RobertFerguson

You're right. These guys are just shooting off their mouths.
When we get to heaven we will see as He sees. You have no idea what has and has not been done surrounding the use of force.

reply from: faithman

I know personaly that RF is a dedicated activist and street evangilist. He is a friend of Troy Newman Pres. of operation rescue west, sometime truth truck jockey, and sign holder of graphic pictures of dead babies. He has done this at many pulic venues such as high traffic intersections, collage campusses, and doctor conventions. His talk is not cheap. He has paid his dues for many years. You are the prevayor of much talk that could be construde as cheap. I ask again oh great magistrate of others character, What is your plan, what actions are you involveed in other than condemnation of those you know not? If our talk is cheap, tell us something of value. How long, and where, have you stood for the womb child? We are waiting.....[

reply from: yoda

Rephrase the question. It makes no sense.
You're doing a lot of critical "talking" about people you have no knowledge of, and making a lot of hollow noises.
Why don't you stick to what you know about?

reply from: faithman

I know personaly that RF is a dedicated activist and street evangilist. He is a friend of Troy Newman Pres. of operation rescue west, sometime truth truck jockey, and sign holder of graphic pictures of dead babies. He has done this at many pulic venues such as high trfaffic intersections, collage campusses, and doctor conventions. His talk is not cheap. He has paid his dues for many years. You are the prevayor of much talk that could be construde as cheap. I ask again oh great magistrate of others character, What is your plan, what actions are you involveed in other than condemnation of those you know not? If our talk is cheap, tell us something of value. How long, and where, have you stood for the womb child? We are waiting.....

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

I know personaly that RF is a dedicated activist and street evangilist. He is a friend of Troy Newman Pres. of operation rescue west, sometime truth truck jockey, and sign holder of graphic pictures of dead babies. He has done this at many pulic venues such as high trfaffic intersections, collage campusses, and doctor conventions. His talk is not cheap. He has paid his dues for many years. You are the prevayor of much talk that could be construde as cheap. I ask again oh great magistrate of others character, What is your plan, what actions are you involveed in other than condemnation of those you know not? If our talk is cheap, tell us something of value. How long, and where, have you stood for the womb child? We are waiting.....
Christian Soldier is right. I'm only aware of a few rare incidents of violence against those who kill preborn babies. Names like Paul Hill and Slepian are remembered. The news would never fail to report an incident of violence against preborn baby killers, their staff or facilities. It seems these incidents must be very rare. So we know by default that those who are trying to encourage others to embrace, advocate and even commit such acts have only been shooting off their mouths; despite Robert Ferguson's statement, "You don't know what I've done in regards to force."
If you are preparing to meet your Lord, faithman, you need to learn how to be subject to the higher authorities and live lawfully. What do you think the word "Lord" means? (A ruler, master) You must be subject to the rulers and live lawfully or you will never have a lord over you, or receive eternal life. You would just be a lawless rebel with an assigned future to be ashes under the feeet of the saints (those who obey the commands).
Faithman, you are not wearing a policeman's uniform and you have not been given authority to act against abortionists. You may protest, educate the people, and call for government to make changes; but being under authority, you can not impose those changes yourself, or execute any judgments.

reply from: JohnGlenn

Hog wash.
In the United States there were 17,000 bombings and arson prefermoed in defense of unborn children in the 20 year period 1977-1997. How many did you see reported individually by the news?
This summary 20 year summary was reported in the Washington Times.
We were delightfully surprised to read such a number and we remain to this day disinclined to discover whether or not it was actual or a misprint. A remnant in deed! WE are put to mind of those covert 7,000 faithful Isrealites of Elijah's time. How uplift to know they are out there!!

reply from: faithman

I know personaly that RF is a dedicated activist and street evangilist. He is a friend of Troy Newman Pres. of operation rescue west, sometime truth truck jockey, and sign holder of graphic pictures of dead babies. He has done this at many pulic venues such as high trfaffic intersections, collage campusses, and doctor conventions. His talk is not cheap. He has paid his dues for many years. You are the prevayor of much talk that could be construde as cheap. I ask again oh great magistrate of others character, What is your plan, what actions are you involveed in other than condemnation of those you know not? If our talk is cheap, tell us something of value. How long, and where, have you stood for the womb child? We are waiting.....
Christian Soldier is right. I'm only aware of a few rare incidents of violence against those who kill preborn babies. Names like Paul Hill and Slepian are remembered. The news would never fail to report an incident of violence against preborn baby killers, their staff or facilities. It seems these incidents must be very rare. So we know by default that those who are trying to encourage others to embrace, advocate and even commit such acts have only been shooting off their mouths; despite Robert Ferguson's statement, "You don't know what I've done in regards to force."
If you are preparing to meet your Lord, faithman, you need to learn how to be subject to the higher authorities and live lawfully. What do you think the word "Lord" means? (A ruler, master) You must be subject to the rulers and live lawfully or you will never have a lord over you, or receive eternal life. You would just be a lawless rebel with an assigned future to be ashes under the feeet of the saints (those who obey the commands).
Faithman, you are not wearing a policeman's uniform and you have not been given authority to act against abortionists. You may protest, educate the people, and call for government to make changes; but being under authority, you can not impose those changes yourself, or execute any judgments.
There is no other way to put this, you are an idiot. Here is the jist of your stupidity. The role of government is very well defined in Romans 13. To be a terror to evil doers. When government becomes the perpatrator of that evil, they are no longer a God ordained ruler. You continue to be blind to our founding documents as well. Documents that were written by people you condemn with your perverted view. They rebelled against the "ruler" king greorge. In those very documents, it says that WE THE PEOPLE are the government, and have the duty to throw off despotism. The second amendment was passed to make sure the citizens of this country had the power to throw off government if it got too powerful and oppressive. I do not have to wait for a uniform in any state of this union to stop an evil doer from messing over a born child includding the use of deadly force. SSSOOO all you are is a planned parenthood shill who has rellagated the pre-born to second class status, and unworth of consideration, because an ungodly power says so. My relationship with God is based on faith thru grace alone, not because I bow my knee to ungodly, unconstitutional false authority. You are entitled to your stupidity, and are protected by the first amendment to run your false religeous punk mouth. But you condemn those who bled out to give you that right. Go stand with the rest of the parasites who would have us to be a prey to every evil doer, just so you can project yourself as a pious numb skull. Get a grip dude . Your attitude would destroy ever innocent life at the hands of evil doers.

reply from: Scottishhighlander

I HAVE NOT BEEN ON THIS SITE FOR LONG BUT JUST AFTER A FEW DAYS ON IT. I HAVE DECIDED TO LEAVE. Due to the fact that this site is not helping the Pro-life cause because of all the in house fighting. I have decided to move on to another kind of work. Which is Spreading the word of the Holy Mother Catholic Church which will help the Pro-life cause so much more than this site because Getting the word out about The Savior of the world and His Church will help change the hearts of the Pro-choicers through his Truth,Love,Mercy,Forgiveness which this site is not doing. May Gods Peace and mercy be upon all of you ! Scottishhighlander!

reply from: JohnGlenn

So, then you were not telling the truth in your signature that states" I am....ready to debate the issue with prolifers and prochoicers"

reply from: faithman

Good ridance. Go check out the history of "His Church" before you go getting all self righteous. Killing a boy because he named his dog after the pope. Letting people rot thru the bars of cages hung from the columns of the cathedrals. torchering jews to death. And what alter boy can feel safe with the local priest these days? You will not be missed at all.

reply from: yoda

Good luck to you, highlander. Although we may not agree on how to conduct this war, we agree on who the enemy is.

reply from: RobertFerguson

Not even the Catechism of the catholic church?
2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.
Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.

reply from: faithman

Have about 10,000 I AM A PERSON cards in stock, waiting to be handed out. How bout it passifist? Or does handing out pictures of womb childen constitute violence?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Your human interpritation of Roman's 13 is typical but Nero was the Ruler at the time that Paul wrote it. Nero as most everyone knows was one of the most disgusting people to ever live on this planet. Further more people were killing their babies in the womb and out of the womb during the time of Jesus. He did not raise an army or tell his followers to go out and kick some butt. He told them to pray and share the Gospel.
Abraham Lincoln said "Government for the people, of the people, by the people." May be out of order but that is what he said. This is not of God at all. It is self serving humanism at best. Luciferian at worst. The fruit of this country is obvious.
Your vitriol will get you no where. If you can change your anger into passion for the Lord and get out and preach the truth in love you might do some good. Until then you are just a clanging cymbol.
And your Grace thru faith "alone" is not Christian. Here are some quotes from the Bible. Read and may your understanding not be darkened.
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

reply from: RobertFerguson

Biblical truth,
Does scripture say that Moses was a murderer (or even wrong) for defending the Jewish slave from the unjust Egyptian aggressor? Yes or no?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Scripture does not pass judgement on what Moses did for the good or bad. He had a bad consequence but God uses that for his Glory. Your new law is the New Testament. Your example is Jesus not Moses. Don't worry you have some mutual benefactors basing your religion off of Moses. They are the Pharisees!
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: RobertFerguson

That is where you are wrong.
The very word that God inspired to be used to descrtibe the defensive act is not a word meaning murder.
Scripture speaks even louder in God using Moses as the representation of Jesus, our Deliverer.
Scripture further speaks of Moses not being a murderer by honoring Moses for his great faith in Hebrews hall of faith Heb13.
God continues to honor Moses by having Moses be the bearer of the Ten Comandements- do you really wnat to claim that God would choose a murderer to give His law to His people?
What "bad" consequences? Immediately after fleeing Egypt, Moses was used by God to deliver yet again, (do you see the pattern?) the daughters of the rich ruler who Jehovah Jirah (the Provider) used to provide for Moses while he was in excile. How is that bad? Moses was being trained by God to be His deliverer of His people.
not according to Jesus, who said that He did not come to abolish or rid of the Law.
Again, not according to Timothy where he writes in the NT that you are so fond of that the scripture is to be used as our DOCTRINE. Just what scripture do you think Timothy was speaking of since the NT was not yet in existance if not the OT scriptures of Moses?

reply from: RobertFerguson

I wonder why you take the verse out of context and do not mention it is a covenant to Isreal? Nor do you include the next verse that speaks of the divine service found in the OT: "Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
di?vine? /d??va?n/
proceeding from God or a god: divine laws.
godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
heavenly; celestial: the divine kingdom.
Informal. extremely good; unusually lovely:

reply from: BiblicalTruth

And so how much of the old testament law do you believe a person should follow?
BiblicalTruth

reply from: RobertFerguson

And so how much of the old testament law do you believe a person should follow?
The Bible says it is ALL profitable, yes?

reply from: yoda

Isn't it odd that he's the first poster to use the same avatar as siggy?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

So in the sermon on the mount when he raises everything to a higher standard he is basing the teaching off of the OT laws but raises the bar. Do you think you can divorce your wife for anything other than adultry? You could in Old Testament times. How do you get around the non violent teachings in the Sermon on the mount and in the Epistles.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: domsmom

While I agree with you somewhat, did God not advocate stoning women to death (as well as the male perp) for being unfaithful to their husbands?

reply from: RobertFerguson

BiblicalTruth,
What part of profitable to do you not understand?
Now back to what the NT says is to be used for our doctrine. You failed to address any of the responses as to how the Bible speaks volumes about our example Moses? Let's finish this before you try to lead.
And if killing is so wrong, then why does the Bible say that God rewarded Phinehas for his zeal in killing two people with a spear in defense of his family and nation with an everlasting priesthood? Seems to me that Phinehas also is an example to follow according to 2 Tim 3:17 again. Certainly, you cannot deny that killing is part of God's character and He used men to kill for Him.

reply from: RobertFerguson

No reason to discriminate is there?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

OLD TESTAMENT
Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
NEW TESTAMENT
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
I will ask you again the question that you did not answer in the other forum. How many abortionist have you killed. Actually to put it into the context of you above statement how many aobrtion doctors have you skewered though with their clients and fastened them to the ground? If the answer is none then you are worthless acourding to your own standard.
God dealt with men differently then. It is just a plain simple fact. Israel was his government and they were the wielders of HIS sword. If you don't like what Jesus says in the NT then be a JEW. Good luck in the Judgement though.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: yoda

So then, are you a total pacifist? Do you completely disdain both self-defense and defense of the weak, the innocent, the helpless? Do you always "turn the other cheek"?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

So then, are you a total pacifist? Do you completely disdain both self-defense and defense of the weak, the innocent, the helpless? Do you always "turn the other cheek"?
That is the goal. God only knows how I will respond in any given situation. To say that I disdain the defense of people is a false statement. I pray for God to protect them and the law protects them. I do not disdain those activities. I actually do not disdain physical protection of anyone but my Lord clearly commands this above. I can help someone in trouble without physical violence also. There are many situations in the Old Testament even when God does the fighting for the Israelites himself or with his Angels.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (I would like to point out that sheep do not defend themselves hence the analogy)
Phi 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. (What are you affraid of?)
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. (Not defend themselves valiantly)
Jam 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. (The only defense anyone ever did was call down fire from heaven which is God's supernatural protection)
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Here is an example of what will happen to those who harm the defenseless) I like God's judgement abilities and defensive abilities over my own.
Psa 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. (Even David who killed many men knew what the Lord's heart was. He was not allowed to build the house of the Lord as he was a Man of Blood. He was also said to be a man after God's own heart. This means that God will do for us what was done by men in the Old Testament. If we are allowed to suffer persecution it will be a glory for us)
There are many more examples...
And a little telling factoid for ya...any forms with defense or protect as the root are not in the KJV New Testament.
BibicalTruth

reply from: RobertFerguson

Why do you hate righteous instruction, reproof, correction and doctrine?
I have answered this here. http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=2293&messid=47582&parentid=0


I repost for you again.
Does one have to be prepared to adopt in order to accept adoption as a justifiable defensive tactic to save a preborn life?
Obviously NOT!
Does one have to DO sidewalk counseling or use graphic signs, or go to schools and speak in seminars or all of the many other things that prolifers do in an attempt to save a preborn life for those tactics to be justifiable?
Obviously NOT!
Then why does one have be prepared to or actually act out with force for force to be accepted as a justifiable defensive tactic in an attempt to save a preborn life?
Your representation of my "standard" is bearing a false witness. I have not claimed non-forceful action is worthless. Anticipation is not extended that you will repent. Surprise me.
I like the NT plenty. It says that the OT is PROFITABLE for our doctrine, rebroof corection and instruction in RIGHTEOUSNESS.
What part of profitable do you not understand in that NT verse?
Why do you hate righteousness, instruction, reproof, correction and doctrine?

reply from: faithman

OLD TESTAMENT
Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
NEW TESTAMENT
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
I will ask you again the question that you did not answer in the other forum. How many abortionist have you killed. Actually to put it into the context of you above statement how many aobrtion doctors have you skewered though with their clients and fastened them to the ground? If the answer is none then you are worthless acourding to your own standard.
God dealt with men differently then. It is just a plain simple fact. Israel was his government and they were the wielders of HIS sword. If you don't like what Jesus says in the NT then be a JEW. Good luck in the Judgement though.
BiblicalTruth
...and just what actions do you personaly take? Is posting your worthless BS on this forum the extent of your activity? Just what do you do for the cause of the womb child?

reply from: yoda

Hmmm........ that's a rather ambiguous answer, but I think you are trying to say that you "wish you could" always turn the other cheek, but you're not sure if you are "strong enough" to do that..... is that about right?
If that's what you're saying, then it seems to me that you ought to understand it when others are "too weak" to turn the other cheek to an abortionist who is about to kill 30 babies.
Can you understand that kind of "weakness"?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

I try to go to the local clinic here in Portland that is on Lovejoy street of all places and preach and witness. We hold signboards and pictures what these people are engaging in. Last week we got attacked and one of our signs with a baby head on it got cut up. It was not bad but the cops still came and there was a scene. We are also going to get CBR signs which you who promote violence can't get that are quite to the point and profound. The one I have on order shows a picture of the holocaust, a kkk hanging and an 8th week abortion. It say Ungentile, Unwhite, Unborn under each picture. I pray on a regular basis and try to share the Gospel with as many people as possible. I have also gotten everyone I work with to look at 4D Ultrasound which is awsome. One the back of my Van I have
Christians Change Hearts not Laws
Be not conformed to this world
and on the sides I have
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Mark 7:6 This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
You should pray about this verse....it is one of my memory verses
Tit 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
If he says this about our speech what about our actions?
BiblicalTruth

reply from: RobertFerguson

So you discount Timothy in the NT?
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

reply from: InIt4life

Sir,
With all due respect, your forcefulness is unjustifiable.
All the posts I have seen from you are railing at those who will not use violence in this battle. You are trying to equate illegal violent force as a justifiable tactic with those of legal non-violent tactics. If you are not prepared to DO what it is that you are putting forth as a justifiable means...WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT????
If you are not willing to act upon your own theory, you have nothing to stand upon. It is not logical. You can argue scripture till you are blue in the face, but what you are saying has no merit if you yourself are not willing to do it. Not that you have to, mind you. In fact, I advise against it.
In your examples you use adoption and sidewalk counselling. What about street preaching or holding signs. None of these things are violent acts that are against the law. If God calls me to the ones that I have not done, well then, I will obey. But KILLING is what we are trying to STOP!!!
Not the perpetuation of it.

reply from: faithman

Hmmm........ that's a rather ambiguous answer, but I think you are trying to say that you "wish you could" always turn the other cheek, but you're not sure if you are "strong enough" to do that..... is that about right?
If that's what you're saying, then it seems to me that you ought to understand it when others are "too weak" to turn the other cheek to an abortionist who is about to kill 30 babies.
Can you understand that kind of "weakness"?
Then he could not morally pontificate how supirior he is to everyone else. ...and just what action does he take besides plaster his own opinion on this forum? Give to CPC? Side walk council at the local mill? Hand out literature at the schools? hold signs in high trafic areas? Just what is it you do? I am beginniong to think nothing of any value at all.

reply from: RobertFerguson

Then you know the great life saving work of my fellow advocates for treating the preborn equally, the late Paul DeParrie, Cathy Ramey, Andrew Barnet, Edward Gathright, etc? They have done GREAT WORK to defend the preborn children in Portland. Not wanting to exclude my dear friend Shelley Shannon, who pays a higher price than a few cut up signs for her sacrifical offering in defense of preborn life.

reply from: yoda

Then you sir are having comprehension problems. No one has done what you suggest.
What has been done, and continues to be done, is to defend the honor of those who resort to physical means to protect unborn babies, and to suggest that they had honorable motives for doing so. No one has exhorted anyone here to follow the example set by these men and women, no one has "railed" at anyone for "not using violence". The only railing has been by those making personal attacks on the defenders of physical actions.
Defending an action is quite a different thing from suggesting that action, you need to recognize that.
You have created a strawman, and shot him down. Congratulations!

reply from: faithman

That is where you are wrong. If we were ernestly trying to stop abortion, it would stop. All you want to do is promote personal agenda, other wise youy wouldn't run your false pasifist mouth against those who truely stopped it from happening. According to you then, poilice should not have guns and stop the crime of murder if it ment the use of deadly force. Oh thats right, the catholics pay $50,000 to have others do their dirty work for them.

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Not in the least. I discount your intrepretation of scripture.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Here is a great example....what do you think this means?
Deu 25:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
It certainly means something different to the New Testament Saint than it did to the Old Testament Jew
BiblicalTruth

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Paul is the one that got us going out there. It was his sign that got cut-up. InIt4Life actually has the sign now. I have heard of Edward but he is not in the area anymore from what I understand. If I am not mistake Paul used to work with Shelley at the magazine they had going?
BiblicalTruth

reply from: faithman

I try to go to the local clinic here in Portland that is on Lovejoy street of all places and preach and witness. We hold signboards and pictures what these people are engaging in. Last week we got attacked and one of our signs with a baby head on it got cut up. It was not bad but the cops still came and there was a scene. We are also going to get CBR signs which you who promote violence can't get that are quite to the point and profound. The one I have on order shows a picture of the holocaust, a kkk hanging and an 8th week abortion. It say Ungentile, Unwhite, Unborn under each picture. I pray on a regular basis and try to share the Gospel with as many people as possible. I have also gotten everyone I work with to look at 4D Ultrasound which is awsome. One the back of my Van I have
Christians Change Hearts not Laws
Be not conformed to this world
and on the sides I have
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Mark 7:6 This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
You should pray about this verse....it is one of my memory verses
Tit 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
If he says this about our speech what about our actions?
BiblicalTruth
Thank you for your efforts. I will be glad to send you some of the most powerful material on changing hearts on this issue I have ever used in 14 years of doing this.

reply from: RobertFerguson

BiblicalTruth,
You fail in every post to even addreess the questions. Why is that?
What part of profitable to do you not understand?
Now back to what the NT says is to be used for our doctrine. You failed to address any of the responses as to how the Bible speaks volumes about our example Moses? Let's finish this before you try to lead.
And if killing is so wrong, then why does the Bible say that God rewarded Phinehas for his zeal in killing two people with a spear in defense of his family and nation with an everlasting priesthood? Seems to me that Phinehas also is an example to follow according to 2 Tim 3:17 again. Certainly, you cannot deny that killing is part of God's character and He used men to kill for Him.
You have not been able to show that the preborn child is not worthy of these equal defenses available to the born child simply because the government and church discriminate against them.
The justness of the acts. One does not need ot smuggle Bibles to advocate the justness of the act do they?
Really? Then you do not think that it is good to go to Africa on a miisions trip- since I do not hear of your getting your passport and shots.
So aguing the merits of anything that one does not engage in is fruitless? I am not the President but I can argue the merits of having a President. Can't you?
Not that you have to, mind you. In fact, I advise against it.
I also use smuggling Bibles and blowing up Nazi Train Tracks and defending Jews by killing their Nazi opressors. That's the entire point. Not all action needs to be violent or illegal. But violnce and illigalness is not the standard by which we shoudl exclude the actions.
Great! Then one would expect you will begin to apply this same reasoning to those who are called to things you are not, like Paul Hill.
UNJUST kiling.
You have yet to show any evidence that defending preborn babies that causes the death of the baby killer is perpetuating unjust killings.

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Please check out cbrinfo.org for amazing material for hittin the streets.

reply from: RobertFerguson

have you seen the "I AM A PERSON" posters and post cards that faith man is offering to anyone who asks?
these are great. They are easy to use on the streets and hand out at places like Portland's Pioneer Square- they have the Romans road on the back... very very good for Pioneer Square preaching. You ought to take him up on his free offer.

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Then we would like to know what you use at your limiting factor for what can be done. The problem with what you are suggesting can easily be understood as sin. Atleast you can admit to the possibility of it being as such. I can promote all sorts of activities that I myself am not going to engage in and it goes on forever. Just a bunch of words. Now I understand after being here that you are defending the people that use these means while not doing them yourself. Somewhat noble however we would like to know your reason for not acting the same as the Paul Hills of this world. You are not doing what he did so you must have some difference of opinion from him.
As to your Nazi/Jew example. This is somewhat harse but I believe it to be truth. The tragety of the Holocaust is not the 6 million+ Jews died but that everyone that died without Jesus when to Hell. The only way I can see saving their lives having any eternal value is if they accepted Jesus. Otherwise God is treating them just like all the heathen in the Old Testament which you so promote. Remember what God did to them is 70AD. I by no means find what the Nazi's did as acceptable but it is the same as Babylon was. God will Judge and that is the point.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: RobertFerguson

Speaking of cbr...
are you in favor of cbr's Greg Cunningham having paid a baby killer to be able to stand there as the abortionist kiled several babies?

reply from: RobertFerguson

BiblicalTruth,
You fail in every post to even address the questions. Why is that?
What part of profitable to do you not understand?
Now back to what the NT says is to be used for our doctrine. You failed to address any of the responses as to how the Bible speaks volumes about our example Moses? Let's finish this before you try to lead.
And if killing is so wrong, then why does the Bible say that God rewarded Phinehas for his zeal in killing two people with a spear in defense of his family and nation with an everlasting priesthood? Seems to me that Phinehas also is an example to follow according to 2 Tim 3:16-17 again.
Certainly, you cannot deny that killing is part of God's character and He used men to kill for Him.

reply from: faithman

Then we would like to know what you use at your limiting factor for what can be done. The problem with what you are suggesting can easily be understood as sin. Atleast you can admit to the possibility of it being as such. I can promote all sorts of activities that I myself am not going to engage in and it goes on forever. Just a bunch of words. Now I understand after being here that you are defending the people that use these means while not doing them yourself. Somewhat noble however we would like to know your reason for not acting the same as the Paul Hills of this world. You are not doing what he did so you must have some difference of opinion from him.
As to your Nazi/Jew example. This is somewhat harse but I believe it to be truth. The tragety of the Holocaust is not the 6 million+ Jews died but that everyone that died without Jesus when to Hell. The only way I can see saving their lives having any eternal value is if they accepted Jesus. Otherwise God is treating them just like all the heathen in the Old Testament which you so promote. Remember what God did to them is 70AD. I by no means find what the Nazi's did as acceptable but it is the same as Babylon was. God will Judge and that is the point.
BiblicalTruth
Your signature is false. Christians change both hearts and laws. It has always been that way since there have been christians.

reply from: BiblicalTruth

I was not aware of this. I guess I would put this into the same context of Killing one of them...does the means justify the end? I dunno...why did he stand there? He himself did not do damage but I understand the repulsion of standing there watching it. Have you watch any abortion video's like the silent scream. I am sure that video has been profitable?
BiblicalTruth

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Your statement is patently false. Go to http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html and Read Ante-Nicene Volumes 1-7 and 9. Will take you about 2 years but you will understand what Christianity is suppose to be as it was Once Delivered. Christianity was not political until after 325 give or take 10 years.
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: faithman

have you seen the "I AM A PERSON" posters and post cards that faith man is offering to anyone who asks?
these are great. They are easy to use on the streets and hand out at places like Portland's Pioneer Square- they have the Romans road on the back... very very good for Pioneer Square preaching. You ought to take him up on his free offer.
Thanks Robert. I find it funny that these pasifist condemn actions they provoke. When you use the pictures of the aborted, you are using the very material that encourged Hill to act. I think it is totally dishonest for a passifist to use material that provokes the very actions they condemn. The I AM A PERSON images are every bit as powerful as malachi times ten, but they do not stir up violent emotions. It totally wins hearts to the side of life, and opens up the conversation to an introduction to the author of life.
If you are a passifist, you are wrong in using aborted baby pictures, and cause folk to stumble into violence. I prefer a peaceful end, but you can't have it both ways. You can not condemn those you provoked into action in the first place. That is intrapment, causing a brother to sin, and makes you a partaker of that sin.

reply from: RobertFerguson

Where have you been? Whatever is just to defend the BORN child is just to defend the PREBORN child.
Only to those who do not study God's word ot understand that He does not condemn all killings. Moses, etc.... all these cases use a different word than what is in the 6th commandment.
Am I accountable for your ingnorance now too? I have done everything I know how to educate you in what is profitable.
Not so. Not a bunch of words alone. It proclaims the just characte rof Gid. That God is not a respector of presons. God loves the preborn child. God loves mankind- see... it's a gospel message.
I have stated this many times. Justification for the actions is what is being addressed not expedience. I do not have the as much courage in my entire body that Paul hill had in his little trigger finger.
No difference in opinion. but perhaps in position. You do understand that everyone has a different position in the body, yes? Paul Hill says he was called to do this. I am not stating I am called. Who are we to say Hill was not?
Proverbs 24 does not make any qualification of the spiritual status of those needing to be rescued. Why should you?
God rescued plenty of heathens from unjust aggressors.
Jews are not the heathen in the OT

reply from: yoda

Hmmm........ that's a rather ambiguous answer, but I think you are trying to say that you "wish you could" always turn the other cheek, but you're not sure if you are "strong enough" to do that..... is that about right?
If that's what you're saying, then it seems to me that you ought to understand it when others are "too weak" to turn the other cheek to an abortionist who is about to kill 30 babies.
Can you understand that kind of "weakness"?

reply from: faithman

Your statement is patently false. Go to http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html and Read Ante-Nicene Volumes 1-7 and 9. Will take you about 2 years but you will understand what Christianity is suppose to be as it was Once Delivered. Christianity was not political until after 325 give or take 10 years.
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
BiblicalTruth
It is not patently false. the scripture says go into all the world. I believe that includes the political one as well. SSSSOOO I guess we need to turn all the pagan cultures back over to them, and repeal all the laws christians have passed for over a thousand years huh?

reply from: RobertFerguson

it's true. I was in a living room Bible study at Cunningham's Yorba Linda home he shared with a buddy of mine, back in the late 80s or early 90s (or so) when he asked for donations to pay the baby killer.
If the means is just. Is it your claim that the killing of the preborn children was just?
It was his crew who stood there during several children being killed that they paid the baby killer to be able to film. Do you think it was just to do nothing to prevent these deaths?


Do you? Is that because you stand at the abortuaries week after week while children are slaughtered inside?

So you believe it is just to do nothing to stop imminent death in order to possibly save others later. That sounds more like the ends justifying the means to me than anything we have repesented. But let's hold it to the same standards as a forceful defense.... what does scripture say about us being our brother's keeper? If the good samaratin had come across the man onthe side of the road, do you supose he would have stood there with a sign and prayed or intervened with force?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Phi 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: RobertFerguson

Hmmm........ that's a rather ambiguous answer, but I think you are trying to say that you "wish you could" always turn the other cheek, but you're not sure if you are "strong enough" to do that..... is that about right?
If that's what you're saying, then it seems to me that you ought to understand it when others are "too weak" to turn the other cheek to an abortionist who is about to kill 30 babies.
Can you understand that kind of "weakness"?
The problem with his post is that you did not make a statement- but rather asked a question. He, of course failed to answer....

reply from: RobertFerguson

Yoda,
I thought that the reference to how heathens and jews should be treated when it applies to unjust oppression and death, even a holocaust would be of interest to others.

reply from: InIt4life

Come out from among them and be ye separate!!!
You have the idea now faithman!!!
Blessings to each one of you.

reply from: faithman

Even though we are not of the world, we are in it, and are to be an influence as well. SSSSSOOO I ask again, we should turn over alll the pagan cultures back to them and repeal all the laws christians have passed for over a thousand years?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Even though we are not of the world, we are in it, and are to be an influence as well. SSSSSOOO I ask again, we should turn over alll the pagan cultures back to them and repeal all the laws christians have passed for over a thousand years?
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Laws save no-one. You are all so attached to being confortable here. That is the opposite of what we are called to. There have been quite a few people I dare say that have died obeying Christian Laws and ended up in Hell because they thought they were good people.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: faithman

Even though we are not of the world, we are in it, and are to be an influence as well. SSSSSOOO I ask again, we should turn over alll the pagan cultures back to them and repeal all the laws christians have passed for over a thousand years?
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Laws save no-one. You are all so attached to being confortable here. That is the opposite of what we are called to. There have been quite a few people I dare say that have died obeying Christian Laws and ended up in Hell because they thought they were good people.
BiblicalTruth
So I ask again, we should repeal all laws and governments constituted by christians and turn all government over to pagans?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Why would you bother even asking this question. I oppose abortion because I think it is just? Brilliant!
He was doing something to prevent future deaths. He also did not engage nor cause the death of the poor baby.
So by condemning me for standing outside witnessing and not killing them you are telling us you do nothing but harass people on websites?
You condemn yourself! You would call up Paul Hill to kick some butt for you?
BiblicalTruth

reply from: InIt4life

You are seeing with the eyes, reasoning with the mind of a carnal man. Ever seeing, never understanding the Spiritual truth in the Word of God.
God's kingdom is not of this world. (The world's methods do not work.)
Our weapons are not carnal....
As to your question on the Timothy verses, I felt that in every response I make to you, and other defenders of violence, is the answer to your question. But just to be clear; Nowhere in the Bible is there promoted a "doctrine" of violence.
Woven throughout is the idea, and doctrine of rest, peace, hope, love, joy, meekness, and longsuffering. Jesus Himself being the Author and Finisher of our faith. I will not turn the Word of God into a means to justify the violent end you are advocating. And I speak against what you are advocating only because I love you and hope to show you the wickedness of this so called doctrine you are promoting so that you will repent and turn to the real Jesus.
And according to scripture, if I tell you all my list of works for God, then I have praise here on earth, but I would rather save it for God to have the glory, and have my reward come from Him. But you can taunt me and think what you want, God sees all.

reply from: faithman

Even though we are not of the world, we are in it, and are to be an influence as well. SSSSSOOO I ask again, we should turn over alll the pagan cultures back to them and repeal all the laws christians have passed for over a thousand years?
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Laws save no-one. You are all so attached to being confortable here. That is the opposite of what we are called to. There have been quite a few people I dare say that have died obeying Christian Laws and ended up in Hell because they thought they were good people.
BiblicalTruth
So I ask again, we should repeal all laws and governments constituted by christians and turn all government over to pagans?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

The Pagans already rule all the Governments. Christ will destroy them all.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: faithman

The Pagans already rule all the Governments. Christ will destroy them all.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
BiblicalTruth
I do not see christian government included, nor democratic republics. it was talking about the specific kingdoms in the context of that book. SSSSSOOOO I ask again. we are to repeal all laws that were made under christian influence and turn all cultures back over to the pagan?.

reply from: BiblicalTruth

The Pagans already rule all the Governments. Christ will destroy them all.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
BiblicalTruth
I do not see christian government included, nor democratic republics. it was talking about the specific kingdoms in the context of that book. SSSSSOOOO I ask again. we are to repeal all laws that were made under christian influence and turn all cultures back over to the pagan?.
So where is your Christian Government? That would be a Government that promotes Christianity and all it's members are Christian. No Governments will continue into the Millenial reign. They will all be destroyed.
Oh by the way you are defending North Korea "Democratic People's Republic"?
BiblicalTruth

reply from: faithman

The Pagans already rule all the Governments. Christ will destroy them all.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
BiblicalTruth
I do not see christian government included, nor democratic republics. it was talking about the specific kingdoms in the context of that book. SSSSSOOOO I ask again. we are to repeal all laws that were made under christian influence and turn all cultures back over to the pagan?.
So where is your Christian Government? That would be a Government that promotes Christianity and all it's members are Christian. No Governments will continue into the Millenial reign. They will all be destroyed.
Oh by the way you are defending North Korea "Democratic People's Republic"?
BiblicalTruth
There will be no need of human government after the return of Christ. The book also says that all gov. are of God. SSSSOOO christians are not supposed to be involved in something the Lord says is of Him? We are to just turn them over completely to pagans?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

You are contradicting yourself. God appoints the rulers but we are just turning them over to the pagan's? Seems to me I am just turning it over to God and he is putting Pagan's incharge of the Governments.
Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
The Jews threw Jeremiah in prison for declaring truth against them. I wonder what the Army of God folks would do to me?
BiblicalTruth

reply from: faithman

You are contradicting yourself. God appoints the rulers but we are just turning them over to the pagan's? Seems to me I am just turning it over to God and he is putting Pagan's incharge of the Governments.
Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
The Jews threw Jeremiah in prison for declaring truth against them. I wonder what the Army of God folks would do to me?
BiblicalTruth
The governments are being turned over to pagans because christians are accepting such falsehoods as being post ed here. One can not use that which is not available. I think there ate many christians involved in government by divine calling. It is ludicris to condemn that which God said He intituted, and condemn christian who are called of HIM to be involved.

reply from: BiblicalTruth

The thing is that the Christians came out in full force in 2000/2004 and now because of who they elected we have all democrats running things as a backlash. But to blame this on Christians is not right. God appoints the rulers. I think America is about to be judged and has been getting whooped for 110 years or more.
I pray for this nation and it's rulers twice a day. I pray for peace but I do not see that coming down the pipe. I trust the Lord. I think we are coming to a time when we will see who really trusts Christ. The worst case senario I see happening is civil war between fundamentalist and sects/atheists. Hopefully this does not happen. I do believe in a tribulation period (not the same as the left behind genre) when Christians will once again experience World wide persecution.
Careful with your double standards. I know you have seen this before but our founding fathers revolted against what God instituted but you praise them? I am not condemning our Government for that would be reviling God's ordained authorities. I just think that Christians would be better off not being a part of "This Worlds System"
BiblicalTruth

reply from: RobertFerguson

Biblical truth,
I do not condemn you. Best that you re-read the question.
You did not address the question, rather you side stepped it. Do you think it was just for Cunningham and his crew to do nothing to prevent these deaths?
Please answer this other series of questions that you sidestepped:
So you believe it is just to do nothing to stop imminent death in order to possibly save others later. That sounds more like the ends justifying the means to me than anything we have repesented. But let's hold it to the same standards as a forceful defense.... what does scripture say about us being our brother's keeper? If the good samaratin had come across the man onthe side of the road, do you supose he would have stood there with a sign and prayed or intervened with force?

reply from: RobertFerguson

The claim by Biblical Truth: "He (Greg Cunningham) also did not engage nor cause the death of the poor baby."
Do you think it is just for Cunningham to pay to be in a physical position to attempt to stop the killing and then not?
Do you think it just to do nothing to try and stop the death?

reply from: RobertFerguson

WRONG!
Timothy says that ALL scripture is for doctrine. The OT is full of violence by men of God , many times at His request, bidding and even command.

reply from: RobertFerguson

You are contradicting yourself. God appoints the rulers but we are just turning them over to the pagan's? Seems to me I am just turning it over to God and he is putting Pagan's incharge of the Governments.
Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
The Jews threw Jeremiah in prison for declaring truth against them. I wonder what the Army of God folks would do to me?
BiblicalTruth
WRONG again. The aledged contradiction is a question that he is asking if it is yoru views. No contradiction there. The ONLY contradiction is where is your posting his words as a quote from yourself

reply from: BiblicalTruth

You obviously think what he did was wrong so he did not "do nothing" or you would have no grounds to be upset. Your question can not be answered as it has an asumption that is not true. But to answer your intended question he did the best he could do to help stop abortion all together. If he had killed that doctor he himself would be killed and would not have been able to do all the work he has done since then. You are trying to frame the arguement as if he is killing a baby to save thousands and that is not what is taking place.
He of course did not do "nothing". If this is your definition then you are saying that everything Paul DeParrie did for the last 10 years and everyone like him did nothing as they did not physically (violently) stop an abortion. I feel he did the best possible thing he could do in a bad situation.
If I saw someone getting beat up I would utilize every non violent method I could. That would include getting the authorities, getting in the way and so on.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: RobertFerguson

Full Force? Really? I never read of thousands of Christians at any abortuary in 2000/2004, certianly not even of the many I frequented during that time frame. Where was this full force of Christians at?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Originally posted by: RobertFerguson
The claim by Biblical Truth: "He (Greg Cunningham) also did not engage nor cause the death of the poor baby."
I think it is unjust for you to say he payed to get into a position to cause physical violence to the "doctor" that was performing the abortion. He paid to get into a position to film it no?
I think if someone is doing nothing then they are not just. There is much more than just physical violence that SHOULD be done. Anyway you do not do physical violence so are you unjust?
BiblicalTruth

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Full Force? Really? I never read of thousands of Christians at any abortuary in 2000/2004, certianly not even of the many I frequented during that time frame. Where was this full force of Christians at?
Once again you have made my point for me. They were at the Polls rather than at the clinics witnessing and protesting. Thanks Robert : )
BiblicalTruth

reply from: RobertFerguson

the question is not a matter of what I think- but was asked what YOU think.
That was not my question and certainly not my intention as I do not beleive that abortion or any sin can be stopped all together So again I ask that you just answert the question. Do you think it was just for Cunningham and his crew to do nothing to prevent these deaths? yes or no.

There are costs to serving fellow man.
If Greg was not willing to compromise or offer up this one baby's life for the possibility of others, what was it then?
As it concerns the life of that child- Greg did nothing to stop it.

when was Paul DeParrie ever inside an abortion chamber when the baby was being killed like Greg's crew was ? Name the time and place that this happened or retract your filthy lies.
Really, I do not recall ever reading about anyone from Portland placing tehmselves between the baby killer's knife and the baby recently. When was the last time that you applied this same standard to the killing of a preborn child? As you know, the authorities (like Greg in this instance) wil do nothing to stop the killlings.

reply from: RobertFerguson

Biblical Truth,
Still waiting for your answer to this question
Do you think it is just for Cunningham to pay to be in a physical position to attempt to stop the killing and then not?

I did not say that. I clearly said: "Do you think it is just for Cunningham to pay to be in a physical position to attempt to stop the killing and then not?" There ar emany ways to attempt to stop abortion, and Cunningham did none of these. NOT ONE!
Cunnigham chose to film these many deaths than to raise any objection in an attempt to stop them- and payed an alledged $50,000to the baby killer of tax except charitable donations to be there while these many babies were killed.
Do you think it just to do nothing to try and stop the death?
Then your answer is yes, Cunnigham was unjust to do nothing to attemtpt to stop the deaths of these preborn?
I agree. I never suggested that Greg implore physical violence, did I?
heck, I agree with you, that there is much more than physical violence that can be done in attempts to stop abortion, and I do them. So why would I be unjust? I do them. However, Greg was in a very unique situation where he was able to verbally and/or physically intervene in an attempt to stop the killings of these specific preborn, and did nothing to stop their deaths. Isn't that sic? BTW Who said I have never done physical violence? You?

reply from: RobertFerguson

So it is not truly full force is it?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

I have already said that I don't think he did nothing. I stated I think he did the best that he could.
Your question is invalid as he did not do nothing. I think what he did was just. God lets it happen? If you are basing your arguement on what someone is in the position and power to do then you condemn God.
Sounds very humanistic
He did not offer up anything. The baby would have died whether he was there or not. He did not play any role in the babies death.
Neither did you.
Paul Hill was not inside but he still stopped him. Maybe by your standard Paul was a coward?
Again Paul did not do this? Was he a coward? Was he unjust. He just stood outside with us. I loved Paul. You however seem to condemn everything he did.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Here is the deal. Paul did EVERYTHING he could within current legal standards. To condemn someone for not doing the same is to condemn Paul and I do not think you want to do that. Cunningham did what he could within legal standards. If he would have done otherwise he would not have the ministry he does now.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: defenderoftruth

this is horrible do you all really think that Jesus who said, "turn the other cheek" is into his followers killing people. "vengence is mine"-God says. It's not up to us we just spread the good news and try to convince people killing babies is a horrible vile thing that will send them to hell, we don't pick up guns and shoot people!
How very sad that people would abandon the teachings of Jesus Christ and claim God says that they can commit murder. These abortion doctors were babies once too. So to protect one or more you are willing to kill in cold blood another? God will get them, that's his job not ours.
In Christ,
DoT

reply from: yoda

That's nice. Do you feel the same way about serial child killers? Just leave them alone, and let God "get them"?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

We are not to take retribution into our own hands. God has ordained authorities set to do this. This is very clear in scripture. God will deal with them on his own or have his ordained authories meet out their due punishment. The best example of people doing things they are not setup for by God is Saul performing sacrifices before Samuel got there. This lead to all kinds of problems for Israel. I would suggest that anyone takes a role that God has not given them will bring the same consequences onto his people. This is exactly what you are doing with your vigilanty atitude of just rewards for wrong doers. Please please understand...we are to protect our own with all due diligence, defend the inocent in the public square and generally stand for God's truths. People who harm others will be dealt with by God now or later but it is HIS perogative. If the authorities do not do their God ordained job of for example protecting the unborn you can be sure that God will give them their just reward. How many of the Presidents and political leaders since the 70s have you thought did a Godly job?
BiblicalTruth

reply from: JohnGlenn

We are not to take retribution into our own hands.
What part of defense do you not understand? Defense is not retribution.

reply from: yoda

Then why did you qualify your answer? Why not a simple yes or no?

reply from: yoda

Perhaps he has no answer?

reply from: faithman

In america WE THE PEOPLE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. and the sword of romans 13 was placed in the hands of the people by the 2nd amendment.

reply from: yoda

Odd statement, all right. And I would think that anyone would understand that the tragedy of the Holocaust WAS the Holocaust......

reply from: JohnGlenn

Defense is not vengeance.
However, if you believe the Bible is true... another poster clearly pointed out where this theory of yours that God does not use men to execute vengeance is faulty.
>>>>Does God use His own to execute His vengeance? Evidently so, that is what it says in [Nm. 31:3]
"Select men from your midst and arm them for war, to attack the Midianites and execute the LORD'S vengeance on them."
I know He also uses the pagans as He did with the Babylonians conquering Judah and as He may use the pagan Muslims to bring vengeance on our country for it's unrepentant sins. <<<

reply from: JohnGlenn

Odd statement, all right. And I would think that anyone would understand that the tragedy of the Holocaust WAS the Holocaust......
THE NEW HOLOCAUST DENIERS
http://www.mttu.com/Articles/THE%20NEW%20HOLOCAUST%20DENIERS.htm

reply from: faithman

Defense is not vengeance.
However, if you believe the Bible is true... another poster clearly pointed out where this theory of yours that God does not use men to execute vengeance is faulty.
Does God use His own to execute His vengeance? Evidently so, that is what it says in [Nm. 31:3]
"Select men from your midst and arm them for war, to attack the Midianites and execute the LORD'S vengeance on them."
I know He also uses the pagans as He did with the Babylonians conquering Judah and as He may use the pagan Muslims to bring vengeance on our country for it's unrepentant sins.
And in the new testament in Romans 13. Government are to be a terror and an arm of God's vengance against evil doers. That sentimant is backed up by our founding documents, and the laws of all 50 states, that say every citizen has a right, and a duty to protect inocent life. I say again, the sword of romans 13 was placed into the hand of we the people in the second amendment.

reply from: yoda

"Ordained"? Well, I don't know about every single policeman being "ordained", but that's another question.
What bothers me is that you see no conflict in supporting the actions of the police in using force to arrest serial child killers, and possibly execute them, and stating that you yourself wouldn't use any force against them.
Don't you know that to support someone else's use of force makes you a party to that force?
Yes, as a "law-abiding citizen" who supports their local law enforcement officials, you are a party to whatever they do, like it or not. It's like you have "hired" them to do YOUR dirty work, and are now washing your hands in public of their actions.
It does NOT work that way....... you ARE responsible for that which you support!

reply from: faithman

Defense is not vengeance.
However, if you believe the Bible is true... another poster clearly pointed out where this theory of yours that God does not use men to execute vengeance is faulty.
Does God use His own to execute His vengeance? Evidently so, that is what it says in [Nm. 31:3]
"Select men from your midst and arm them for war, to attack the Midianites and execute the LORD'S vengeance on them."
I know He also uses the pagans as He did with the Babylonians conquering Judah and as He may use the pagan Muslims to bring vengeance on our country for it's unrepentant sins.
And in the new testament in Romans 13. Government are to be a terror and an arm of God's vengance against evil doers. That sentimant is backed up by our founding documents, and the laws of all 50 states, that say every citizen has a right, and a duty to protect inocent life. I say again, the sword of romans 13 was placed into the hand of we the people in the second amendment.

reply from: BiblicalTruth

You can believe this all you want however the Government that supposedly gives you this right does not agree with your interpritation of their documents. Go ahead and take the sword into your hand and find out who they use the sword against. Remember this is the political body that you are a part of based on your own confession. As Yoda so says you are responsable for everything they do hence each and everyone of you who support our government are supporting baby killer protectors.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: BiblicalTruth

NT testament statements on Defense:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Very plain. No room for misinterpretation. You can pervert all the old testament you want it is still not going to give you a foot to stand on.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: BiblicalTruth

A few basic changes from the Old Testament to the New
Dietary Laws
Day of Worship
Whose Name we pray in
Retribution for wrong
Order of Society
Self Defense
Circumcision
Animal Sacrifice
Not all exhaustive by any means but shows the point.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: faithman

You can believe this all you want however the Government that supposedly gives you this right does not agree with your interpritation of their documents. Go ahead and take the sword into your hand and find out who they use the sword against. Remember this is the political body that you are a part of based on your own confession. As Yoda so says you are responsable for everything they do hence each and everyone of you who support our government are supporting baby killer protectors.
BiblicalTruth
I believe in our government as it was constituted, not as it has been perverted. No where does our constitution give women the right to kill their womb child. It does how ever secure the blessings of our land for POSTERY. The declaration also says that if the government becomes despotic, it is the duty of the people to throw it off, and constitute another. That is unessisary, because all we have to do is return this land to the contitution that formed it. It took the blood shed of the civil war to purge the land of the despotism of slavery. SSSSOOOO I guess according to you we should but folk of affrican desent back into chains, because they were freed illegally?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

I am feeling very blessed right now. So do all the dead babies. Maybe people should trust in God and NOT in a constitution!
So how many more unnessessary clauses are in there?
Sure that is what I stand for. Two wrongs always make a right. It took Christians? killing Christians? to free the black man and woman in the county? Maybe God had a better way that the stupid blood thirsty warmongers did not obey!
BiblicalTruth

reply from: BiblicalTruth

I would also like to point out that the brilliant politicians in all their Glory made the 14th Amendment which paved the way for LEGAL abortion in this country. Admittedly this was not the intention but it was the fruit. And we all know what we are to do with BAD fruit.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: faithman

I would also like to point out that the brilliant politicians in all their Glory made the 14th Amendment which paved the way for LEGAL abortion in this country. Admittedly this was not the intention but it was the fruit. And we all know what we are to do with BAD fruit.
BiblicalTruth
The 14th amendment did not pave the way. It was the perverted interpritation of it by the court. The 14th overturned the dred scot discission, and it is the 14th that gives congress the right to over turn RvW. Are your really that ignorant, or are you just playing semantical word games to entertain yourself? Either way you ain't funny. I suggest you go and actually read the constitution, dred scot vs standford, and RvW, before you make such stupid comments again.

reply from: yoda

Say what? You're speaking for the dead babies now, on how they feel about being robbed of their lives?
How about all other victims of murder, do they all feel blessed now too?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Originally posted by: faithman
The 14th amendment did not pave the way. It was the perverted interpritation of it by the court. The 14th overturned the dred scot discission, and it is the 14th that gives congress the right to over turn RvW. Are your really that ignorant, or are you just playing semantical word games to entertain yourself? Either way you ain't funny. I suggest you go and actually read the constitution, dred scot vs standford, and RvW, before you make such stupid comments again.
The fact that it was perverted is my point. Your confidense is misplaced. As I stated above (I have bolded it) it was not written with abortion in mind. I trust in God! ... it seems the folks who would hold to your opinion or similar ones trust their own arms and or the original setting up of this country.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
www.apostlesbible.com
Ps 146:3 Trust not in princes, nor in the children of men, in whom there is no safety.
Psa 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Exo 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
2Ch 32:8 With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah.
And this is what happened because the trusted in the Lord in not in violence
2Ch 32:21 And the LORD sent an angel, which cut off all the mighty men of valour, and the leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned with shame of face to his own land. And when he was come into the house of his god, they that came forth of his own bowels slew him there with the sword.
Isa 33:2 O LORD, be gracious unto us; we have waited for thee: be thou their arm every morning, our salvation also in the time of trouble.
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? I believe oh how I believe....I have seen him work...protecting me from people that would do violence and changing their hearts right before my eyes. Some have even told me they liked me right after they were about to bash my face in
Isa 62:8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: with faith we can attain this
Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Sorry guys he says you are cursed. The Lord is long suffering and abundant in mercy however
Eze 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: Amen Halleluia

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Originally posted by: BiblicalTruth
You can believe this all you want however the Government that supposedly gives you this right does not agree with your interpritation of their documents. Go ahead and take the sword into your hand and find out who they use the sword against. Remember this is the political body that you are a part of based on your own confession. As Yoda so says you are responsable for everything they do hence each and everyone of you who support our government are supporting baby killer protectors.
Originally posted by: BiblicalTruth
I am feeling very blessed right now. So do all the dead babies. Sarcasm Maybe people should trust in God and NOT in a constitution!
Originally posted by: BiblicalTruth
I am feeling very blessed right now. So do all the dead babies. Sarcasm Maybe people should trust in God and NOT in a constitution!
Originally posted by: yodavater
Say what? You're speaking for the dead babies now, on how they feel about being robbed of their lives?
How about all other victims of murder, do they all feel blessed now too?
Please do not take my messages out of context. I was remarking to faithman that I recieve my blessings from God Almighty NOT the US Constitution. He said that the Constitution secures our blessings in this country and quite frankly those blessings are not being seen...hence my sarcasm. Man's doings are not very secure especially when they go against what God has ordained.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: JohnGlenn

Say what? You're speaking for the dead babies now, on how they feel about being robbed of their lives?
How about all other victims of murder, do they all feel blessed now too?
You have to remember that Catholic beleive many strange things out of their teachings and religion over the years, they are able to take away from the ten comandments, add a co-redemptrist along side Christ in Mary, and others such nonsensical religous mumbo jumbo- (now it is tradition)since many never saw a Bible they were easily deceived to allow priest and errant popes (holy fathers these meer men are called by their decieved flock) who they claim can not make errors; are able to interprete scriptures the way they see fit. They have then interpretted scriptures to mean that unborn children will be in heaven. So to these deceived, a dead aborted baby is a blessed baby. How ever convenient for the many many Catholics who abort their children to feel better about their decision and stay (with their money of course) in the church pews. Catholics like this sounds alot like the baby killer who said he aborts babies for God or the baby killer who has a fake 'baptism' for his aborted victims. Doesn't it?

reply from: BiblicalTruth

You have no idea what you are talking about. Not only did you take my post out of context. I do not feel blessed by this nations constitution and neither does anyone who has been dehumized but you have no comprehension of the catholic position on dead babies. Now I am not holding to this position but they believed that babies that died before being baptized went to Limbo as they were not reborn in baptism. You should know what you are talking about before you open your mouth.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: yoda

Okay, I'll take your word that you were attempting to be sarcastic. I would note, however, that in this impersonal medium where voice tone cannot be conveyed, it's best to use sarcasm sparringly.

reply from: yoda

I thought it sounded rather odd, but since he says he was trying to be sarcastic, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that.
But you're right, it's uncomfortably close to how proaborts say "Well the baby goes to heaven, so what's the problem?"

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Originally posted by: yodavater
Okay, I'll take your word that you were attempting to be sarcastic. I would note, however, that in this impersonal medium where voice tone cannot be conveyed, it's best to use sarcasm sparringly.
Point taken.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: JohnGlenn

You have no idea what you are talking about. Not only did you take my post out of context. I do not feel blessed by this nations constitution and neither does anyone who has been dehumized but you have no comprehension of the catholic position on dead babies. Now I am not holding to this position but they believed that babies that died before being baptized went to Limbo as they were not reborn in baptism. You should know what you are talking about before you open your mouth.
BiblicalTruth
I understand the Catholic position. Since Yodavater stated he is agnostic, I saw no reason to go into the whole catholic "limbo" doctrine- one false doctrine is enough for the agnostic.
However, speaking of opening big mouths, who said anything about you? I was simply stating that some catholics have such a belief. You further documented this.

reply from: BiblicalTruth

So you quote out of context what I wrote about being blessed, make some anti-catholic rebutle to the concept of the misrepresentation of feeling blessed and tell me you were not talking about me. You were responding to me as soon as you quoted what I said. You are a coward.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: faithman

So you quote out of context what I wrote about being blessed, make some anti-catholic rebutle to the concept of the misrepresentation of feeling blessed and tell me you were not talking about me. You were responding to me as soon as you quoted what I said. You are a coward.
BiblicalTruth
Gosh Johnny!! want me to send ya some yellow off for your back stripe?

reply from: JohnGlenn

I did not quote out of context. I was replying to another person's post not yours. If it was out of context, it was done in THAT post, not mine.
I have no idea if you are catholic, protestant, whatever. How could I? Have you ever said? I've never seen such. I was simply offering a suggestion in answer to Yodavater's post, whose post you claim was out of context.
If you are not even willing to say that you hold to a catholic position, which you said you are not only NOT willing to do but do NOT hold to; then how is comment on a position that you do not hold about you at all? And if you are catholic yet are not willing to admit to or do NOT hold to the position of your own faith, then who is really the coward here? Who is it that is denying the tenets of their catholic faith?

reply from: JohnGlenn

Gosh Johnny!! want me to send ya some yellow off for your back stripe?
Save it for the one not even willing to say they hold to the position of their catholic faith. The one who is denying the tenets of their 'one, holy, & catholic' faith, is the coward, right? Send it to them.

reply from: faithman

Gosh Johnny!! want me to send ya some yellow off for your back stripe?
Save it for the one not even willing to say they hold to the position of their catholic faith. The one who is denying the tenets of their 'one, holy, & catholic' faith, is the coward, right? Send it to them.
You may have a point

reply from: BiblicalTruth

Originally posted by: faithman
Gosh Johnny!! want me to send ya some yellow off for your back stripe?
Originally posted by: JohnGlenn
Save it for the one not even willing to say they hold to the position of their catholic faith. The one who is denying the tenets of their 'one, holy, & catholic' faith, is the coward, right? Send it to them.
Originally posted by: faithman
You may have a point
Nope he does not get this point either. Unfortunately the Church is a disaster in these times. Our misunderstandings with each other are a perfect example of this. I am Anglican not Roman. Anglo-Catholic is still catholic however. Anglicans whilst permit various understandings on things which I of course do not always agree with do not believe in limbo. If what I have been told is correct the Romans may be doing away with it also? The Romans I think make stuff up and then change it and this is not the Faith once delivered. They have many of the if not all basics. I do not like all the innovation however. Hence I am an Anglican. This is not to say that the Anglicans (me included) have it all right either demonstrated by my statement above.
BiblicalTruth

reply from: InIt4life

So I ask again, we should repeal all laws and governments constituted by christians and turn all government over to pagans?
Hey, sorry for not being able to respond to this right away, if this was intended for me. I have a family and we homeschool, so we are very busy with that and other activities.
Anyways, I want to respond to your question above.
I don't think it is possible to repeal all laws at this point. What ought to be is often so far removed from what IS, we cannot just make a decision like that and expect everyone to follow suit. What we ("we"in the context of Christians) can do however, is step out of the arena of politics and government, and personally live according to Christ's teachings. As long as the law of man does not oppose the commands of Christ, we are to obey them.
There will be laws, such as in the time of the early Christians, when it was illegal to be a Christian, that we have no other choice but to ignore, because we ought to obey God rather than man. But we need to be willing to accept the consequences, such as death or imprisonment; not fight them.

The abortion laws are a direct violation of the commands of Christ. (A "Christian" who violates the laws of their King, and claim that it was legal according to human laws, are going to face his judgement, if there is no repentance.) Hence, I do not believe that we can just go around killing (or advocating the killing of) those who are in violation of God's laws.
It astounds me that there are people who actually believe that abortion is good for humanity, or at least a necessary evil. I find this is selfish and/or ignorant (to say the least), and our group tries to educate those who are willing to listen. We also "protest" in non-violent ways, and let people know that not all who live in the US believe that genocide is acceptable.
The more people who would personally NEVER have an abortion, the less people who have abortions or advocate them. In the end, it really is a matter of choice, my goal is to reach as many people as possible with the Truth of the issue, therefore making abortion UNTHINKABLE. (which IMO is more powerful than "law")
There are many who share this goal and I believe are making a difference. Thank you if you are one of them!
May the King of Peace reign in your heart today.

reply from: JohnGlenn

For a guy without an agenda, you sure focus on one thing alot.
With so many threads about one topic, one can see how you have concluded God is impotent and needs you.


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