Home - List All Discussions

Abortion after rape

by: BB

I am a new poster and I have read through a lot of posts that talk about abortion after rape. Some of you think the exception should be allowed while most of you do not. I personally know the exception should be allowed.
My daughter is 17 years old and a senior in high school, she has a 3.8 average and has been offered a scholorship to attend college next year. She is a social butterfly with a great group of friends.
When she was 11 years old she was raped by the 16 year old neighbor. She was very young, had never had sex, got raped and became pregnant. We as a family talked with doctors and counselors. The doctors were concerned that her body would not be ready to carry a baby to term because she was so young and not fully developed herself. The counselors were afraid that having a baby would traumatize her emotionally. My daughter wanted the abortion. We as a family decided the best thing for her would be to abort the baby. Not that it was easy, we all cried the whole time- we knew we were destroying a new life, after the abortion we set up a little grave and put flowers all around it and appologized to God and the baby. My daughter was relieved that she did not have to have her rapists baby and was over the abortion in a couple weeks.
To this day she still says it was the best choice for her. Of course we all think about the baby and I still grieve the loss of my only grandchild, but under the circumstances I do think it was the best thing for my daughter.
I do not beleive in abortion under most circumstances, not even rape of an adult, but rape of a young child {say under 16} I am willing to make an exception there. If my daughter would have been raped at her age now {17} then we would have tried to get her to keep the baby, but 11? There has to be an exception somewhere.

reply from: coco

I am so sorry to hear about your situation it must be tough telling that story. In my opinion the world is not black and white thier is always going to be gray, yes I think abortion is wrong etc.. but in that situation it is a difficult one. I am not here to judge you or condem you and your daughter for the desicion your family made. I just wish you all the best and my prayers are with you and your family.

reply from: Shiprahagain

I am so sorry, BB. That is a terrible thing for any family to have to go through, and I am proud of your daughter's sucess. Here is what I believe however -- not exceptions because a young girl is raped, but an exception for the life of the mother. And what I mean by this is, if a young girl too small to carry a baby safely to term is raped and impregnated, the doctor can with the girl's consent agree to remove the baby with every attempt to save the baby and the mother's life. The reason I say there shouldn't be a rape exception is because while I don't think a baby should be killed b/c he was conceived in rape, I do understand if a baby dies being removed from a mother to young to carry it while the physician is making every effort to save both lives. But the exception would be for the mother's health -- not b/c of the rape. For example, if you make the exception only for young rape victims, would an 11 year old impregnanted by consenual sex be denied an abortion? I'd also like to point out that girls as young as 5 have delivered babies healthily, and that many doctors and psychologists believe abortion is harder on a very young girl's body and psyche than pregnancy http://www.teenbreaks.com/abortion/complicationsgirls.cfm
">http://www.teenbreaks.com/abor...ationsgirls.cfm
You and your daughter might be interested in reading David C. Reardon's book Victims and Victors which contains many testimonies from women impregnated by rape. It might be interesting to you to hear the voices of others who have been in your daughter's position.

reply from: coco

Young girls as young as 5 pregnant???
Im not trying to attack you ship but that is very young, how would you even have a period that young?? I could see 7 and that is with all the hormones injected into the meat nowadays but 5 that just seems to young!

reply from: BB

No need to be sorry it was a long time ago and we dealt with it as a family.
I did not post to get sympathy but to show that there are cases were abortion is best, not for the baby but for the mother. Abortion should not be legal in any case where the woman has had sex of her own free will, except to save her life. I do not even think that abortion should be allowed in cases of rape when the women is an adult and her life is not at stake. I do not know if my daughter would have died having the baby and luckily did not have to find out, but even if the pregnancy wasn't going to cause harm to her body I think she should have had the option being that she was only 11.
Shiprah are you saying that an 11 year old child should have a baby if she is raped?
I personally think that if an 11 year old child is having sex then she should have the baby if her life is not threatened, but an 11 year old that has never had sex and gets raped should not be forced to have the baby. I know it is still an innocent baby, but there has to be exceptions somewhere.

reply from: bradensmommy

I was only going to be lurking but after reading this, I felt obligated to repost this story about a 5 year old girl having her molester's child. Abortion should not be an "exception" for any age in my opinion. In my opinion if my daughter were to be raped (and unfortunately get pregnant) I would talk to her and explain to her what abortion is and try to talk to her about adoption. No baby should be killed because of the mothers age. A female's body was made to have a child (and no, I don't think that just because it was made to do so, it should have to be made to do so)
http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/medina.asp
I'm sorry that you all had to listen to other people's opinions however the deed was done and theres nothing noone can do about it.

reply from: yoda

That's a rather ambiguous medical opinion. Did they say the baby would be a real threat to her life or not?
But they had no concerns that becoming a baby killer would traumatize her?
In any event, I think it's very sad that this tiny baby had to pay for the crime of it's father with it's very life, so early in it's life.
What happened to the boy, nothing?

reply from: Shiprahagain

I believe that if her life is not threatened she should have to have the baby. If it is, the baby can be removed by a doctor doing all possible to save both lives. I think that promoting abortion for 11 year olds is severely underestimating the mental and physical damage abortion can do. Did you look at the link for complications I gave you? Apparently you aren't as concerned about the physical risk to a young girl's body b/c at 11 year old girl would face the same pregnancy risk whether or not her sex was consensual. I don't believe one child should have to die for another when the risk isn't physical.

reply from: NewPoster1

What if your efforts failed? Would you be content with forcing her to remain (rape-induced) pregnant against her will?

reply from: NewPoster1

I feel sorry for you, but your logic is deeply flawed. Being forced to endure a rape-induced pregnancy is just as much a violation of a 16 year-old as it is a violation of an 11 year-old.
If "trying" didn't work, would you then consider "forcing" to be acceptable?

reply from: bradensmommy

Well, to answer your question I hope I raised my daughter to do the right thing...oh and by the way, you don't think girls her age are FORCED to abort? What do you say about that?

reply from: BB

Yes they did say that it could cause problems that would affect her health and her body.
We all thought the abortion would hurt her less being that she did not die. I would not catorgorize my daughter as a baby killer. I do not believe in abortion but feel there are cases where it is best for the mother.
The boy got sent to a juvenile detention center and had community service and ended up in foster care.
I am not going to argue with the fact that it is sad the baby lost it's life. I agree 100% and yes it is sad and I wish I would have met my only grandchild but we as a family did what was best for my daughter at the time. The baby did not die because of what the father did it died because the doctors thought it would harm my daughters body.

reply from: BB

I tried to look at the link but it is not working.
I have stated that if the girls life is in danger that she should be able to have an abortion. I know that health risks can happen at anytime and abortion should be legal to save the mothers life. I was just saying that if any girl gets pregnant by choice, meaning having sex, that she should not be able to abort the child except to save her own life.

reply from: BB

I think that older people are mature enough to handle being pregnant even by rape. I do not think that a child should die if a 30 year old gets raped and there is no harm to her to let the child live. I do not think that 10 year olds have the same mental stability.
If trying did not work I would never try to force someone to continue a pregnancy caused by rape. I may not agree with their choice but I would support them in any way I could.

reply from: AshMarie88

She doesn't care. As long as an abortionist can make a quick buck and keep the procedure legal, who needs to protect and help women?

reply from: BB

I do not think it is right to force anyone to abort either. If someone, even an 11 year old, chooses to keep the baby then they should get help and more power to them.

reply from: NewPoster1

I'll make it simpler. She hands you the "parental consent" form, do you sign it and allow her to terminate her rape-induced pregnancy or do you refuse to sign it and attempt to force her to remain (rape-induced) pregnant against her will?
I certainly do, quite commonly I bet.
I'd say that that's what happens when you advocate for the position that persons under 18 have no rights over their own body and that their parents have complete control over their reproductive organs.
I read an interesting article a few days ago, it described how, as an unintended consequence of parental consent/notification laws, many parents now assert that they have the right to (and subsequently) force their daughter to have an abortion. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of, "If I have the right to prevent her from having one (abortion), then I have just as much of a right to force her to have one (abortion)".
Quite frankly, I'm not the least bit surprised by this. If you look at the reasons that abortion opponents give for why they think that parents should be able to forcibly prevent their daughter from having an abortion, they can be equally applied to parents who would force their daughter to have an abortion.
I could keep going, but I think I've made my point.
It seems only logical that persons under 18 should have just as much of a right to obtain an abortion or remain pregnant, as persons 18 and over, but I doubt it will ever happen. Even if it meant preventing a greater number of forced abortions, abortion opponents would rather have their ill-gotten parental-obstruction powers.

reply from: NewPoster1

She doesn't care. As long as an abortionist can make a quick buck and keep the procedure legal, who needs to protect and help women?
Why do people always presume that I'm female? As I've said, for about the tenth time, not only have I intentionally never made a comment that could reveal my gender, I also specifically chose a gender-neutral avatar.
Since this will probably keep happening if I don't say something now...
I am a boy, not a girl.

reply from: NewPoster1

I think that older people are mature enough to handle being pregnant even by rape. I do not think that a child should die if a 30 year old gets raped and there is no harm to her to let the child live. I do not think that 10 year olds have the same mental stability.
If trying did not work I would never try to force someone to continue a pregnancy caused by rape. I may not agree with their choice but I would support them in any way I could.
I'm sorry, but this post seems to contradict your first one. Please clarify.
Either...
...You believe that all rape victims should have the legal right to obtain an abortion, though you personally feel that those 16 and older should refrain from doing so...
..or...
...You believe that only rape victims under the age of 16 should have the legal right to obtain an abortion.

reply from: NewPoster1

So if my daughters want to be prostitutes at 13 and 15 years old, I should have no authority over that decision because it involves their reproductive organs and not mine?
This example is uncomparable, prostitution is illegal, abortion is not. I have no problem with you taking steps to prevent your daughters from engaging in illegal activities.

reply from: NewPoster1

So if my daughters want to be prostitutes at 13 and 15 years old, I should have no authority over that decision because it involves their reproductive organs and not mine?
This example is uncomparable, prostitution is illegal, abortion is not. I have no problem with you taking steps to prevent your daughters from engaging in illegal activities.
It is also illegal for you to carry one of my daughters across the state line in order to aid them in procuring an abortion, but I have not forgotten that you have indignantly stated in the past that you would do so.
I'm aware of no law that makes it illegal for one tenth-grader to accompany/assist another tenth-grader across/in crossing state lines for purposes of obtaining an abortion.
Seeing that the best case scenario for abortion opponents is a system where each state determines it's own abortion laws, I'd say that my reaction would be similar to what it is now. The only difference is that it would apply to women of all ages as opposed to only those under 18.

reply from: NewPoster1

So if my daughters want to be prostitutes at 13 and 15 years old, I should have no authority over that decision because it involves their reproductive organs and not mine?
This example is uncomparable, prostitution is illegal, abortion is not. I have no problem with you taking steps to prevent your daughters from engaging in illegal activities.
I think you implied that I have no right to make decisions regarding my children's reproductive organs. I have the full responsibility of a parent, and the authority that must necessarily go with that responsibility, regardless of legality.
This same logic could be used by another parent for the purposes of forcing his/her daughter to have an abortion.
Prostitution spreads disease.

reply from: xLoki

I can't take any of you pro-lifers on this board seriously after reading this thread. You are honestly going to sit there and tell me you would force an 11 year old rape victim to carry a pregnancy to term. That is extremely risky for such an age. Seriously, think back to when you were 11.
Do you think you were mentally or physically mature enough to endure a 9 month pregnancy? Honestly?

reply from: bradensmommy

BTW, to the moron who said prostitution was illegal....um...I've been to Nevada, NO IT ISN'T! And if MY teenage daughter even thought about doing that crap I would be saying h*ll no. You got a problem with that? You pro-abortion people don't know what the heck you are saying, you have no heart, and no feeling. And you really call yourself human beings? humph.

reply from: bradensmommy

Did anyone even SEE the post I made earlier about the 5 year old girl? Oh yeah, you skimmed over it like good little pro-choicers. Females' bodies are ADAPTED to handle pregancies. If you did your history like you should have girls as young as 10 were married. They also endured pregnancies and had many before the age of 14.

reply from: xLoki

Don't get bent out of shape. Yes I SAW the post you made earlier about the EXTREMELY RARE case of a five year old who had an "extraordinary hormonal disorder of pituitary origin" that got pregnant by someone who was having, obviously EXTREMELY inappropriate, relations with a FIVE YEAR OLD.
The fact that you would use this RARE case of a five year old getting pregnant and having the child in support of forcing underage raped victims to carry to term sickens me all the more. Just because both mother and child lived through this, you would be willing to force another five year old in this situation, today, to carry a pregnancy to term? Not even thinking about the physical threats, can you even imagine the probable mental and emotional damage?
This only proves to me how you lot are mostly only "pro-fetus". After that fetus is born, you couldn't give two flips enough to care about the well-being of a five year old rape victim. No, screw quality of life. You condone the mental and physical suffering of life, which I consider to be worse than death. Just sick.
ADULT females' bodies. That's just the problem. I highly doubt most 11 year olds bodies are physically well adapted enough to handle a pregnancy. That you suggest they are is ridiculous.
So because young girls were victimized back in the day, you're perfectly fine with allowing grown men to rape them and make them carry a fetus to term nowadays. Huh. You crazy.
Uh, yeah... are you forgetting that there was also a high childbirth death rate back in the day? I'm sure you're all for going back to the way things used to be. When underaged girls who weren't mature enough to really consent to marriage let alone sex were forced to have sex with grown men and pop out kid after kid, with high risk of complication and death.

reply from: Shiprahagain

xLoki there have been many changes in technology since then. As for the medical and mental risks of abortion on the young body here is the link again, BB http://www.teenbreaks.com/abortion/complicationsgirls.cfm xLoki, I don't think any of us here have a problem with the doctor removing a baby from a girl pregnancy would kill with every effort to save both parties. That, however, is not abortion. Such a procedure would aim to leave both mother and baby safe -- so why is abortion necessary? http://www.pathlights.com/abortion/abort05.htm No, the young body wasn't designed for pregnancy -- however, it really wasn't designed for abortion. This is what abortion does to the body and mind.
What about the possibility of suicide by pregnant women:
Ohio had only 2 maternal suicide deaths between 1955 and 1963. (Ohio State Medical Journal, December 1966.)
119 women under fifty committed suicide in Birmingham, England, in seven years; none were pregnant. (M. Sim, "Abortion and the Psychiatrist," British Medical Journal, 1963.)
No pregnant woman has ever committed suicide in Brisbane, Australia. (F. Whitlock and J. Edwards, "Pregnancy and Attempted Suicide," Compiled Psychiatry, 1968.)
Between 1938 and 1958 over 13,500 Swedish women were refused abortions; only three of these committed suicide. (J. Ottosson, "Legal Abortion in Sweden," Journal of Biosocial Sciences, 1971.)
"There are no unequivocable [definite] psychiatric indications [reasons] for abortions. . [and if the pregnancy is not stopped by abortion] the risk of flare-up or precipitation of psychosis is small and unpredictable, and suicide is rare." - Dr. R. Bruce Sloan of Temple University, writing in the New England Journal of Medicine, May 29, 1969. (Dr. Sloan is a pro-abortionist.)
"The fetus in utero must be a protective mechanism [to keep women from committing suicide]. Perhaps women are reluctant to take another life with them when they do this [commit suicide]." - Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Minnesota, in American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, June 7, 1967.
The above report was very thorough. Here is its conclusion: "[Therapeutic abortion for 'psychiatric reasons'] seems a most nebulous, non-objective, non-scientific approach to medicine. It would seem that psychiatrists would accomplish more by using the available modalities of their specialty in the treatment or rehabilitation of the patient instead of recommending the destruction of another one." - Ibid.
But women who have HAD abortions are different. They DO commit suicide! Meta Uchtman testified on September 1, 1981 before the Cincinnati City Council that in 35 months, "Suiciders Anonymous" in Cincinnati had counseled 5620 people who had attempted suicide. 4000 of these were women - and over 1800 of them had had abortions."The incidence of serious permanent psychiatric aftermath [from abortion] is variously reported as being from between 9 and 59%." - Report of the Council of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, England, 1966.
Teenagers, who account for about 30% of all abortions, are also at much higher risk of suffering many abortion related complications. This is true of both immediate complications and of long-term reproductive damage. Wadhera, "Legal Abortion Among Teens," 1974-1978, Canadian Medical Association Journal, 122:1386-1389, (June 1980).
The younger the patient, the greater the gestation (time into the pregnancy), the higher the complication rate...Some of the most catastrophic complications occur in teenagers. M. Bulfin, M.D., OB-GYN Observer, Oct.-Nov. 1975
Women under 17 have been found to face twice the normal risk of suffering cervical damage due to the fact that their cervixes are still "green" and developing. Schulz, et al., "Measures to Prevent Cervical Injury During Suction Curettage Abortion," The Lancet (May 18, 1983) 1182-1184. Wadhera, "Legal Abortion Among Teens," 1974-1978, Canadian Medical Association (June 1980), vol. 122, 1386-1389
Depending upon the type of abortion performed, physical complications can be as follows:
Cervical tearing and laceration from the instruments.
Perforation of the uterus by instruments. This may require major surgery, including hysterectomy.
Scarring of the uterine lining by suction tubing, curettes, or other instruments.
Infection, local and systemic.
Hemorrhage and shock, especially if the uterine artery is torn.
Anesthesia toxicity from both general or local anesthesia, resulting in possible convulsions, cardiorespiratory arrest, and in extreme cases, death.
Retained tissue, indicated by cramping, heavy bleeding, and infection.
Postabortal syndrome, referring to an enlarged, tender and soft uterus retaining blood clots.
Failure to recognize an ectopic pregnancy. This could lead to the rupture of a fallopian tube, hemorrhage, and resulting infertility or death, if treatment is not provided in time.
Dr. Warren Hern, Abortion Practice, c. 1980 & Hern, W. "Long Term Risks of Induced Abortion," Gynecology and Obstetrics, 6:63 (1994)
Some women experience immediate psychological problems from abortion. Other women repress feelings of guilt, delaying emotional reactions sometimes for several years and oftentimes triggered by their first planned pregnancy.
These complications include:
Sad mood.
Sudden and uncontrollable crying episodes.
Deterioration of self-concept.
Sleep, appetite and sexual disturbances.
Reduced motivation.
Disruption in interpersonal relationships.
Extreme guilt and anxiety.
Psychological "numbing."
Depression and thoughts of suicide.
Listing provided by David Reardon, Ph.D., the Elliot Institute and Paul C. Reisser, M.D. and Teri Reisser, M.S., "Identifying and Overcoming Post-Abortion Syndrome," (Colorado Springs: Focus on the Family, 1994), pg. 11.
National statistics on abortion show that 10% of women undergoing abortions suffer from immediate complications, of which one-fifth were considered major. Grimes and Cates, "Abortion: Methods and Complications," Human Reproduction, 2nd ed., 796-813
The cervical damage which results during abortion frequently results in a permanent weakening of the cervix. This weakening may result in an "incompetent cervix" which, unable to carry the weight of a later "wanted" pregnancy, opens prematurely, resulting in miscarriage or premature birth. According to a study entitled "Cervical Incompetence-Aetiology and Management" which appeared in the Medical Journal of Australia, symptoms related to cervical incompetence were found among 75% of women who undergo forced dilation for abortion.
Another research study entitled "Sexual Activity and Its Consequences in the Teenager" published in Clinics in Ob&Gyn, found that among teenagers who aborted their first pregnancies, 66% subsequently experienced miscarriages or premature birth of their second "wanted" pregnancies.
In a 5-year study, 25% of women who have had abortions sought out psychiatric care, versus just 3% of women who have not had abortions. "Report on the Committee on the Operation of the Abortion Law," p. 321, Ottawa, 1977
The relative risk of secondary infertility among women with at least one induced abortion and no spontaneous miscarriages was 3 to 4 times that among non-aborted women. D. Trichopoulos et al, "Induced Abortion & Secondary Infertility," British Journal OB/GYN, vol. 83, Aug. 1976, pp. 645-650
A new study published in the June, 2004 issue of American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse strengthens the case for a connection between abortion and substance abuse. The study found that among women who had unintended first pregnancies, those who had abortions were more likely to report more frequent and recent use of alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine.
Those of you who believe childbirth is worse than abortion for the young body and mind need to provide some medical statistics to support that belief.

reply from: bradensmommy

Its no use Ship...that THING will never understand...it is funny that the pro-aborts on here can't even be man/woman enough to tell us thier gender.
I believe this person is a man by the way they talk...yes, YOU Loki, you have no maternal instincts and you could give 2 craps about a child. You know nothing about me so don't even sit there and type your crap about me not caring about children because I DO. BTW, girls AND boys were married before the age of 13...I seriously recommend you doing your research on history before blubbering your manical BS about how I don't care about anyone.
Oh yeah, I want all females to not use the modern technology we have now and undergo labor without painkillers....(this is coming from someone who had an epi that wore off and wanted to strangle anyone that pissed me off)
So before you type anymore nonsense crap I suggest you do your research and/or know me and anyone else who is a pro-lifer on this board. You bore me and I'm sick of the crap you spew out.
And believe it or not when a female gets pregnant she is automatically a mother. Unfortunately we have the choice to be a mother to a live baby or a dead one.

reply from: NewPoster1

Oh please, like you anti-choicers care about teenager's health...
If you were actually concerned about teenagers suffering abortion complications, you wouldn't be supporting policies that delay their abortions for weeks, if not months.

reply from: bradensmommy

Oh yes, because as a teenager like herself, Shiprah could give 2 craps about other teenagers...
OMG...you and Loki are on a WHOLE new level of DEE DEE DEE
I am so done even talking to y'all because you are so darn STUPID...and this is why I HATE stupid people.
<EOA>

reply from: AshMarie88

She doesn't care. As long as an abortionist can make a quick buck and keep the procedure legal, who needs to protect and help women?
Why do people always presume that I'm female? As I've said, for about the tenth time, not only have I intentionally never made a comment that could reveal my gender, I also specifically chose a gender-neutral avatar.
Since this will probably keep happening if I don't say something now...
I am a boy, not a girl.
I appologize, but still, whether you are a boy or girl, you still don't care.

reply from: NewPoster1

So what? I'm a teenager as well.

reply from: xLoki

And this is what a 6-year-old child sounds like as they storm off because they didn't get their way.
If you want to debate like a grown up, please behave like one.
As for your previous post...
I don't really care what gender I'm perceived as on these boards, as I don't feel it should really matter. For what it's worth, I am female... Perhaps you are correct that I have no maternal instincts, but that's the way I am. I am satisfied with myself, and don't see why I should be ashamed of my views on parenthood. It works for some people, and doesn't for others. That's just how it is.
I'm sorry, I just don't see how forcing a raped CHILD to give birth shows that you truly care for their health and well-being. I'll just leave it at that.

reply from: bradensmommy

And this is what a 6-year-old child sounds like as they storm off because they didn't get their way.
If you want to debate like a grown up, please behave like one.
As for your previous post...
I don't really care what gender I'm perceived as on these boards, as I don't feel it should really matter. For what it's worth, I am female... Perhaps you are correct that I have no maternal instincts, but that's the way I am. I am satisfied with myself, and don't see why I should be ashamed of my views on parenthood. It works for some people, and doesn't for others. That's just how it is.
I'm sorry, I just don't see how forcing a raped CHILD to give birth shows that you truly care for their health and well-being. I'll just leave it at that.
Again, the face of a stupid person y'all. And that is not being a "6 year old", that is just the truth. And when you and the rest of the pro-aborts have good debates maybe I'll listen more and respond with a civil answer.

reply from: xLoki

Could you kindly point out to me what part of my post you thought was stupid. I think you tend to reply with random insults just because you see that someone disagrees with you, without actually reading their posts.

reply from: AshMarie88

When will people learn that 2 wrongs don't make a right?

reply from: bradensmommy

I'm in such a great mood that I'm just going to shut up. And as for random insults I believe you and your pro-abort friends are guilty of doing that too...especially if we call your bluff(which we have done often)
Or completely avoid the question.
You guys make me laugh, especially when you tell Shiprah that she doesn't care about teenagers without knowing that she is one, telling pro-life females on here that they don't care about women...can I go on?
Yeah, you get the Mencia award for being so intelligent....
Ashmarie and I are already making fun of you on myspace because after all, we could care less about other women, let alone born kids...yep...thats it...
And as for "forcing" a girl to be pregnant...once she concieves a child SHE IS PREGNANT or have you not taken sex ed? I suggest you and the other "yeay abortion is okay!" friends to go back and see what happens when you have sex, then come back to me with a grown up discussion. Of course you don't want kids yet, not alot of teenage girls have the motherly instinct.
Anyway, back to my college studies. I'll just lurk every so often to see if you or the other ones have anything remotely smart to say.

reply from: bradensmommy

I dunno..but 2 lefts make a right...or something like that....

reply from: Shiprahagain

Thanks, Bradensmommy.

reply from: yoda

Say, while you're dishing out all that crap that you're throwing at prolifers in general, think about something for a moment....... just SUPPOSE that prolifers were all the horrible, sick, twisted perverts that you make them out to be (as you stand with your nose up, shinning your halo), how would that make it one tiny bit more moral to kill an innocent baby?
Or do you just enjoy it so much you can't resist even if it is irrelevant?

reply from: Shiprahagain

Say, while you're dishing out all that crap that you're throwing at prolifers in general, think about something for a moment....... just SUPPOSE that prolifers were all the horrible, sick, twisted perverts that you make them out to be (as you stand with your nose up, shinning your halo), how would that make it one tiny bit more moral to kill an innocent baby?
Or do you just enjoy it so much you can't resist even if it is irrelevant?
And if she cares so much about girl's wellbeing, why can't she find one source to refute my stats that childbirth is better for it? She makes her claim uninformed and doesn't care about the cost of ignorance on young girls.

reply from: xLoki

Say what? You implied that I said something stupid in my previous post. I was asking you to honestly point to which part of my post you found stupid. Don't cop out now. You made the statement, and I would like you to seriously point out what you found stupid.
Show me where I did that. You were claiming I was stupid, based on my posts, and you can't seem to point out what you found stupid about what I wrote, so obviously I believe you decided that since you disagreed with me you called me stupid because you couldn't come up with a good counter-argument.
You mean like what you just did?
Just because one is a member of a certain group doesn't mean that they are incapable of not caring for said group.
Besides, the whole topic of this post wasn't really people in their late teens, but young CHILDREN and "barely teens".
If you feel you must, but as I said... "Just because one is a member of a certain group doesn't mean that they are incapable of not caring for said group."
Wow, what an honor. Like I care.
Of course it takes sex to get pregnant (or IVF)... Do you even remember what this post was about or have you flooded your memory so full that you can't see through all the petty insults? CHILDREN WERE RAPED. It is risky for a CHILD to carry a pregnancy, let alone give birth, yet you want to FORCE her to go through with it, risking her life, and mental and physical well-being by not permitting ANYONE to have an abortion, not even CHILD RAPE VICTIMS.
What business is it of yours on whether I want kids or not? Seriously, why does it matter so much to you? Some people never want kids. Their decisions will never affect you. Get over it.

reply from: xLoki

So far, you've all condoned forcing a young raped child to carry a pregnancy and give birth, regardless of the probable damage to her own self... I think most sane people would agree that's pretty sick and twisted.
Plus, I don't really know what you are getting at. I'm not saying that because pro-lifers are "sick and twisted" that it is moral to go around "killing innocent babies".
Why don't you stay on topic and tell me why you think it's moral to make rape victims as young as 5 years old endure an intense physical condition for 9 months that is usually difficult on adult females, let alone, physicall and mentally immature children.

reply from: xLoki

Probably because you list the most biased and outdated sources imaginable to "support your claims".
Show me even one reliable source (not from a pro-life propaganda site or one that didn't exist in the Jurassic period, please) that claims that it would be healthy and completely safe for an 11-year-old (or all the way down to a 5-year-old, for that matter) to carry a pregnancy to term.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Prove that my sources
British Medical Journal
Compiled Psychiatry
Journal of Biosocial Sciences and every one in my post is biased. If you can't you are once more endangering the lives of young girls with your lies. Besides, if my stuff is biased you are free to post your own info. Also, age doesn't mean inadequacy -- you must prove that new evidence contradicts it.

reply from: bradensmommy

Which parts? Hmmm do I actually have time for all that? Well...lets see here...
You cannot sit there and say you NEVER have put down a pro-lifer on here because I guarantee you have. I don't have time to look over posts from you but I'm sure someone will post any links to them. I can come up with really good points but its hard trying to debate with someone as heartless as you.
Actually I have not avoided any questions I just use the sarcastic way that I'm sorry you can't comprehend.
So you'd admit that you don't care either or is it just pro-life teens? I'm trying to comprehend your use of words here because they seem like a wad of BS
If you knew ANYTHING about me you'd know I"m a pro-life feminist...you break it down...
I'm glad you don't care, so keep on your gibberish.
Okay, because since we still live in 1880 we don't have the technologies used today....doh...what was I thinking?!?! ANY female can go through pregnancy, if you remember in sex ed, the female body is CAPABLE of becoming pregnant as I have said like a million times before. Is it right for a child to be pregnant? No. But do I think a child should die because of his or her father? No.
And then we'll go back to the arguement I had with a pro-choicer on this board before about teenagers having sex and getting rid of thier convenience...ITS NOT RIGHT.
Actually I could give 2 craps about if you want kids or not. In my opinion I wouldn't want another child with your heartless feelings and ignorant points of view.

reply from: yoda

Number one, that's not just a lie, that's a whopper!
Then why on earth are you pounding on a totally immaterial subject? Have you no inkling that we are debating the morality of abortion here, and NOT the morality of the POSTERS here? Or is it just too much fun to resist?
There you go again, telling WHOPPERS!! Didn't your mother tell you that your nose would grow too big for telling whoppers?
We discuss the morality of abortion here, we don't "make rape victims" do anything. If you don't like our exercise of our first ammendment rights, how about taking your foul mouth eleswhere?

reply from: bradensmommy

ah yes, because you know that 5 year old girls are raped and forced to have babies everyday Yoda.....
We don't think its moral to force anyone to do anything, we believe that killing a healthy human is not moral at all. Girls like the one I posted was VERY rare but she didn't have any complications and underwent a C-section which is used if the female's body is too small to have a vaginal. What about the ADULT women who are shorter than 5'1 and thinner than 110 lbs? Should she abort because her body may not be able to "handle" a pregnancy? Yeah, thats a real nice thing to say.
I guess I'll have to keep repeating myself like always....

reply from: coco

I don't really care what gender I'm perceived as on these boards, as I don't feel it should really matter. For what it's worth, I am female... Perhaps you are correct that I have no maternal instincts, but that's the way I am. I am satisfied with myself, and don't see why I should be ashamed of my views on parenthood. It works for some people, and doesn't for others. That's just how it is.
Xloki, there is nothing wrong with you or anyone else if you/they do not have maternial instincts and if you/they have no children and choose not to then more power to you/them, at least you know yourself to know your likes and dislikes and that is wroth praise! But I feel that a pregnant women should not abort if she does not want the child she should be able to put the child for adoption. Again xloki I am not trying to knock you or anything and I RESPECT your opinion even though I disagree with you

reply from: Shiprahagain

Then why on earth are you pounding on a totally immaterial subject? Have you no inkling that we are debating the morality of abortion here, and NOT the morality of the POSTERS here? Or is it just too much fun to resist?
Seriously, it's like saying MLK had no right to say segregation wasn't Christian b/c he wasn't a real Christian (I personally think he still was) by having affairs. Or Sojourner Truth or Harriet Tubman, I forget which, was a hypocrite to fight for the freedom of slaves against the abuses of their owners when she beat her own kids? I guess she was a two-faced ingrate who had no right to be abolitionist. Oh yeah- and how about that Susan B. Anthony, if she really believed in equal rights for all, why was so racist in her beliefs towards American Indians? B/c I disagree with some of the very serious things these ppl did I guess their causes are wrong, too.

reply from: ThunderKitten

Ok, I thought of this line of reasoning a little while ago, but here seems the perfect oppurtunity to present it.
Why a parent can "force" their daughter to remain pregnant (unless her life is in danger) but CANNOT force her to have an abortion:
A parent has both the right and responsibility to care for his/her own child, and so the pregnant mother, whatever her age, has full authority over her own offspring's wellbeing in the same way that her parents have authority over her. As such, the mother's parents cannot force her to abort her baby, because it is under HER authority, not theirs.
However, if the mother wishes to abort (thus terminating her responsiblity/authority), her parents, having authority over her, CAN decide it's in their daughter's best interest that she not have an abortion, and prevent her from doing so.
I'm sure there's a more elegant way to put it, but that about sums it up.

reply from: ThunderKitten

You misspelled Mensa on purpose to add to the humor, I assume?
That's a u-turn. Three lefts make a right. So what do two wrongs make? Three?
About kids that are too young... which is better, delivering early, or trying to go full term? How would one decide? How rough on a mom is premature birth versus full term birth? Is birth itself the main problem in underdeveloped girls, or is the pregnancy itself what's most harmful? Do they both suck? I'm really genuinely curious about all that stuff.
Oh, and I think back to when I was eleven... I think getting raped would've been more emotionally distressing than a baby. I sure as hell didn't WANT a baby at that age, but I think, if I was in that situation, I'd keep the baby. For myself, I don't consider abortion OR adoption to be an option.
I was a pretty big girl, so that would've helped a lot with the carrying a baby.
But, yeah, getting raped would suck, getting pregnant by a rapist would suck, and getting pregnant before one has even finished growing would suck. I'm just saying that if the me now was in charge of the me then, if I was in that situation I'd make me keep the baby. What the 11-year-old me would've done, I don't know because I had never considered that possibility and I don't have any way of knowing whose "choice" it would've been. Plus, these kind of hypotheticals I don't feel comfortable discussing with my parents.
Anyway, I'm rambling...

reply from: bradensmommy

Nope, I spelled Carlos Mencia's name correctly because thats who I was talking about.
Full term is always best although babies can live outside the womb after 29? weeks(correct me if I'm wrong)
This is why I always am boggled when pro-choicers claim that life doesn't begin at conception. I'm still wondering when it begins...
But anyway, on with the point. Like I have said before in another post, women who are shorter than 5'1 and thinner than 110 lbs have had big healthy babies, and some actually have gone through a vaginal delivery so I think the people who claim that an 11 year old can't have a child is absurd. I was actually watching a show called "Little people" on TLC where the couple (who are both "little people") have a couple of kids and you know as well as I do they are smaller than an 11 year old.
Oh absolutely! But I think that getting an abortion and knowing full well how the procedure is done would distress me even more. Abortion won't take away the effects of the rape so I don't know why people even use that as a cure. I would have the baby because I don't think I should be the grim reaper of my own child.
I was a pretty big girl, so that would've helped a lot with the carrying a baby.
I know what you mean
I don't think I could look myself in the mirror knowing I killed my own offspring, but to each thier own I suppose!

reply from: yoda

Unless the "anyone" that we are forcing to die is an unborn baby...... then "force" is just fine and dandy... enough force to tear it apart, limb from limb.......
But the babykillers say that isn't "force".......

reply from: yoda

Good arguments for or against any moral issue are legitimate and valid regardless of who makes them. To say otherwise is just a weasely way to change the subject and create a diversion.

reply from: AshMarie88

Unless the "anyone" that we are forcing to die is an unborn baby...... then "force" is just fine and dandy... enough force to tear it apart, limb from limb.......
But the babykillers say that isn't "force".......
"Not force, not violent, not cruel, just medicine..."

reply from: laurissamarcotte

So if my daughters want to be prostitutes at 13 and 15 years old, I should have no authority over that decision because it involves their reproductive organs and not mine?
This example is uncomparable, prostitution is illegal, abortion is not. I have no problem with you taking steps to prevent your daughters from engaging in illegal activities.
It's legal in some parts of Nevada.

reply from: laurissamarcotte

Oh please, like you anti-choicers care about teenager's health...
If we didn't, there'd be no Birthright.

reply from: Ayame

I am a teenager, considering I am 18. Now, I will not go back into detail about age, or about any of that, because I believe I have no right. Before I was pregnant, I was 5'8 or so, and only 105 pounds. I was always underweight, and I had huge problems gaining weight. BUT what people who do not have children, or haven't been pregnant do not realize = YOU GAIN A LOT OF WEIGHT WHILE BEING PREGNANT! I'm going to be honest, I am now 155!!! That is the most I've ever weighed.. well, EVER! I've never been over 105! That is a whole 50 pounds, and according to my doctor, it's healthy for me.
I wont lie. If I was raped, and fell pregnant, I could never opt for abortion. It may not be my fault, but it isn't the unborn BABY's fault either, you cannot blame the baby for something his/hers father did. That is a life that needs a chance to live.
A good friend of mine, her name is Brittnie, is 17 years old. At 15 she was raped. She decided to go through with her pregnancy. Now her daughter is turning 1 in 8 days, and she loves and cares for her more than anything. She tells me that she does think about what happened, but her daughter is getting the chance to live, and that's all that matters. She said she wanted her daughter to do all the things that she was able to do, to enjoy her life. She also said there isn't a day in the world she'd go back and get an abortion.

reply from: coco

I know of my fiancee, sisters, ex boyfriends, brother was a product of an incest and rape case. the mother was raped by her father, this case is very VERY sad. The guy obviously has mental problems and that did not help with the abuse he suffered because his mother always said to HIS FACE THAT SHE HATED HIM!! and we all know that it was not his fault for the circumstances in which he was conceved in. SHE MENtally,physically abused him she would lock him in a closet and not feed him because everytime she looked at him it was a constant reminder of what had occured. Now she was not ALLOWED to give this kid up for adoption or have an abortion. before his mother was raped by her father his mother just had a son and I think she was like 15 years old and had him by 16. Now under the circumstances in this EXTREME and SAD situation would any of you like to be in this enviornment?? He is now 30 years old and in and out of jail, I just feel so bad for him he was really dealt a S***** hand in life his life was screwed even before it happend I am not saying all cases are like this but if someones life is going to be that much in turm oil wouldnt it be better for the child to be in heaven then be in a physical and emotional hell??? I totally believe in adoption but in this case that was not an option because her parents were afraid what people would think,looking back I think she should have had an abortion because her head wasnt right (to say the least)

reply from: Shiprahagain

Coco, I'm so sorry about this. I recommend he read the book Antwone Fischer wrote. He was a very abused child yet he is making good with his life. As is the author of "A Child Called It" I will NEVER believe abortion is better than life. Even if this man is now in jail, there is still hope and he can turn his life around.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Ayame, please tell Brittnie she is a hero. People like her make me proud to be a woman.

reply from: Ayame

Of course, and I will. She is a great mother as well.

reply from: coco

It sucks for I feel very very VERY bad for him and every time I see him I make a special effort to talk to him. Obviously he turned to drugs and basiclly lives a rough life, I just wish nothing but good for him he is mentally challanged not completely but has learning disablities to say the least and I am not sure if he full understands or maybe it is to emotional to understand, I dont know.

reply from: prolifecatholic

I personally do not know how people can say it is okay to abort in certain situations. Is it not a baby when someone is raped? It sure as heck is not a fig tree. A baby is a baby no matter what. There is no excuse in my opinion.

reply from: ThunderKitten

Do you tell him you think this? I don't think he'd appreciate the sentiment. If his life is that bad he DOES have the option of suicide (that would be self-inflicted post-birth abortion). Really, I don't think you have any right to say that he should be dead.
Why do people think the solution to abuse is death? "I hate my child, so I should be able to have an abortion! It would be better for him or her to die than to be raised by ME!! See how concerned for his/her welfare I am??" That's screwed up. Adoption sounds like it would have been best, but I'd still ask the guy whether adoption would have been better than being with his mom. Having crappy parents myself (but not as bad as HIS!), I think things would have to be pretty awful before you'd be better off with strangers, because I still prefer having been raised by my folks over anyone else.

reply from: coco

Adoption sounds like it would have been best, but I'd still ask the guy whether adoption would have been better than being with his mom. Having crappy parents myself (but not as bad as HIS!), I think things would have to be pretty awful before you'd be better off with strangers, because I still prefer having been raised by my folks over anyone else.
ADOPTION WAS NOT AN OPTION IN THIS SITUATION, AS I STATED HER PARENTS WOULD NOT ALLOW IT. one day he actually said to us WHY DID MY MOM HAVE ME, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER WITH OUT ME BEING HERE!! I know if I were in that situation I would rather not be alive, you not only took physical beatings but emotional, and spiritual so he never had the self esteem to rise above it. I beleve that aborted babies are with god because they never had the chance to sin so why would I not suggest that, instead of living a life in that type of all around pain and sin. sad to say I dont see an outlet for him, I HOPE AND PRAY THAT I AM WRONG, but as a realist I dont think so. Last I heard he was in prison for raping a girl. I hope he finds peace with himself, his mother, father and the situation. WOuld YOU live in that hell or would you rather have a chance to be in "heaven"? I personally choose heaven

reply from: coco

Why do people think the solution to abuse is death? "I hate my child, so I should be able to have an abortion!
I dont believe that statement at all I totally believe in adoption 100% but, the woman had so much anger,hatred and distruction that she ruined his life FOREVER HE WILL ALWAYS BE SCARED. THAT FAMILY NEEDS COUNSULING!!!

reply from: Shiprahagain

However, you don't have the right to choose for anyone else.

reply from: ThunderKitten

I'll take it that he would rather have been adopted than live with his mom, then.
You said that the mother was not allowed to choose adoption or abortion. She couldn't choose either one! You say she should have had an abortion, well I say she probably should have given him up for adoption. But the fact is, she couldn't do either one! Why would abortion be the better choice out of two things that didn't happen anyway?
If she had the option, would she have given him up for adoption? If she had gotten out of that abusive situation and gone to live with someone else, would she have been so cruel to her child? I'm thinking who she really wanted to hurt was her dad, and took it out on the baby. Maybe if she had gotten help she wouldn't have done all that to her kid.

reply from: coco

I'll take it that he would rather have been adopted than live with his mom, then.
You said that the mother was not allowed to choose adoption or abortion. She couldn't choose either one! You say she should have had an abortion, well I say she probably should have given him up for adoption. But the fact is, she couldn't do either one! Why would abortion be the better choice out of two things that didn't happen anyway?
If she had the option, would she have given him up for adoption? If she had gotten out of that abusive situation and gone to live with someone else, would she have been so cruel to her child? I'm thinking who she really wanted to hurt was her dad, and took it out on the baby. Maybe if she had gotten help she wouldn't have done all that to her kid.
YOURE CORRECT SHE SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN HELP BUT 30 YEARS AGO MOST PEOPLE FROWN UPON THAT!! I said that she could not have an abortion or adopt and I say she also should have given him up but that would have rasied to many questions people would be like that girl was pregnant but I dont see the kid, that is why they use to send teenage girls that were pregnant "away" the same thing in this situation from what I understand they were broke and couldnt afford to send their daughter away, and looking forward what f***ed up life he had I personally would have chosen to be aborted but yes IDEALLY she should have adopted him out.

reply from: ThunderKitten

They could have claimed it was a still birth, that should end the questions right there. There's no reason that anyone would have had to know it was an adoption.
The point you're trying to make is that you'd rather die than live that life. The point I'm trying to make is that he wouldn't have had to die to not live that life.
In regards to your point- I can't really say how bad life would have to be for being dead to be better than being alive. I would always promote improving someone's life over ending it, but if that were not possible...
I don't think his situation was bad enough that I'd want to kill myself if I were in his position. You feel differently. You also think he would rather have died than been in that situation. It's possible, but sentiments such as, "I wish I were dead," or "I wish I had never been born," are often born more out of an expression of despair or misery than an actual desire to die. And expressing intense emotions usually makes one feel a little bit better.

reply from: NewPoster1

Since my question seems to have been lost in the mix, I'll repost it.
What if your efforts failed? Would you be content with forcing her to remain (rape-induced) pregnant against her will?
Well, to answer your question I hope I raised my daughter to do the right thing...
I'll make it simpler. She hands you the "parental consent" form, do you sign it and allow her to terminate her rape-induced pregnancy or do you refuse to sign it and attempt to force her to remain (rape-induced) pregnant against her will?

reply from: NewPoster1

Getting back to the whole prostitution thing...
I don't oppose the criminalization of prostitution because it applies equally to both men and women, and it carries astronomical rates (much higher than consensual, not-for-profit sex) of HIV, STDs, rape, and murder. That being said, I don't oppose the legalization of prostitution either, because I believe that, if consensual, a person should have the right to use their body as they wish.

reply from: ThunderKitten

I'd refuse to sign it. How the child was concieved is irrelvant in that it would still be her child and my grandchild. I would acknowledge the royal suckage of the situation, but that suckage would not be sufficient for me to condone killing... except for, possibly, the rapist. Of course, condoning killing the rapist would not be dependent on whether she ended up pregnant.

reply from: Ayame

I would refuse to sign it, and in the end if she didn't want the child, I'd adopt the baby, or we could look for a proper family to take care of the baby. And this would be if she was underage. Overage there is nothing I can do because she makes that choice, not me.

reply from: faithman

Let me state it again. The issue is not about these extreme hypotheticals. Very few abortions are preformed because of them, and they were legal before RvW. RvW made abortion on demand legal. Planned parenthood is not keeping the doors open by aborting rape babies. They do it by aborting children of women who use abortion as birth control. They only use the extreme cases to confuse the issue, and make folk believe that they are providing rape victims a valuable service. The truth is they slaughter womb children for money, and the political power that money buys.

reply from: bradensmommy

I would refuse to sign it, and in the end if she didn't want the child, I'd adopt the baby, or we could look for a proper family to take care of the baby. And this would be if she was underage. Overage there is nothing I can do because she makes that choice, not me.
I agree wholeheartily.

reply from: yoda

To sign such a form makes you a party to the abortion. If you are prolife, you cannot be a party to an abortion.
As a parent, you have a right to control her behavior. Unfortunately, on the flip side, that means a proabort parent has the right to intimidate and pressure their child to abort. Sad, but that's the only consistent way to support parental rights.

reply from: ThunderKitten

No, it's not the only consistent way to support parental rights, actually...
Apparently everyone missed this the first time I posted it:

reply from: yoda

I stand corrected. What I meant, and should have said, was that her parents can intimidate and pressure her into having an abortion. I'm sure that happens a lot.

reply from: Ayame

I stand corrected. What I meant, and should have said, was that her parents can intimidate and pressure her into having an abortion. I'm sure that happens a lot.
Oh it does happen. When I first started a sexual relationship with my boyfriend, my mother told me, right to my face. "You are getting an abortion if you get pregnant." And I told her no. Well the argument reached my grandmother, she said, "You'd kill your grandfather! He has heart problems, stomach problems, and you would kill him because YOU are selfish!" And they said in the end, if I didn't, I'd be forced to leave. Of course I didn't get pregnant till NOW, and he LOVES his great granddaughter, and she isn't even here! When he was first told, he was happy, happy me and Jeff were married, and especially happy because we were using his middle name as the boys if it was a boy. Now he can't stop talking about her, how much money he is going to get her, etc. And she tried to put this on ME!


2017 ~ LifeDiscussions.org ~ Discussions on Life, Abortion, and the Surrounding Politics