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Why are people so cold?

Post-abortive women.

by: AshMarie88

Last night I was talking to a pro-lifer online and she made a weird comment about women that are post-abortive and regret their abortion decision, that she doesn't care about them or they don't deserve compassion. It was something to that extent.
I think what the women did was wrong too, but their choice obviously killed them inside and they're so depressed, I think it's alright if we comfort them and support them as they get counseling. Especially since a lot of those women had no idea they were lied to until after their choice was made. They, along with their children, were victims as well. (Which explains why abortion mills don't care about women).
I hope I'm not the only one who feels this way...

reply from: yoda

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"..............

reply from: AshMarie88

I honestly don't know what that means. :/ (Weird for me to say that...)

reply from: yoda

Unless a person is without "sin"(error), they have no business attacking someone who regrets their error(s)........

reply from: AshMarie88

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I agree with that completely.

reply from: faithman

Only problem is, once again the murdered child is considered nothing, deserving no justice. When killer mom gets all the attention dead baby is forgotten.

reply from: yoda

Well IMO when a woman regrets what she's done, she will not forget the baby but rather she will try to tell other women what a horrible mistake it was, and try to keep them from making the same mistake. That's what tells me that she's sincere.

reply from: faithman

Agreed. Some of the best at turning women away at the clinic, are post abortive.I just think we should be careful that we don't ever forget a little human has died.

reply from: AshMarie88

Obviously if the women regret killing their children, they are remembered and are considered something.
We pro-lifers are not only here to help protect the unborn, but to help protect women from the lies as well. At least, that's my opinion.

reply from: thecatholicamerican

Why? Righteous vindictiveness! For some the cause of pro-life is more about being against something or winning the fight as opposed to compassion for and respect for life. Any that would automatically condem the woman that has had an abortion is cold indeed.
Many however do not and have not ever fully appreciated what an abortion is. Only when the woman has an abortion does she then realize that she has ended the life of a human being. That in itself is a lot to come to grips with. What that woman needs is compassion when she realizes what she has done and not be be shunned and shoved into the corner.
There are others though that callously hold onto the right to kill the unborn. They know what abortion is and do not care. They do not cherish human life. Among those many abortion doctors. More importantly are those that run and support the abortion mills, namely those that profit from abortion. The blood of the unborn is very much on their hands and they are morally accountable for it.

reply from: faithman

Mercy can not be applied until justice is established and fulfilled. One does not recieve mercy from the court until the court has convicted. Mercy over rides justice, but when mercy is applied with out justice, it is cruel, and the inocent suffer. The mercy of salvation was not exstended to man until the justice of calvary was fulfilled. When all we do is exstend mercy to killer moms, it is an horrific injustice to the slaughtered womb child. I here alot of don't judge on this forum all the time. And yet you judge those as cold who demand justice for the preborn. The killer mom who is truely sorry for murder, great!!! Exstend mercy!! But not as some kind of hero. But as a convicted criminal whom the court exstends mercy upon conviction. You mercy guys knock your own feet out from under your selves by not understanding justice, and wrongly judging those who do as cold. Without justice there is no foundation to apply mercy. That is what is wrong with the false passivity in pro-life. Our mercy is just as cruel as the abortionist, and as a matter of fact is the abortionist best freind. It assures his grizzzly trade will continue. Misplaced mercy says that the womb child has second place to killer mom in consideration [just like planned parenthood]. Justice demands the killing stops period.

reply from: Shiprahagain

I tend not to think it's so much that but the fact that there are certain crimes we acknowledge as contemptible - pedophila, for example, and no one ever talks about mercy towards the remorseful, or befriending them, etc. I'm not saying that's right-- all repetant deserve mercy, but just as pedophiles are beyond the pale so are post-abortive women for some ppl.

reply from: danib

I tend not to think it's so much that but the fact that there are certain crimes we acknowledge as contemptible - pedophila, for example, and no one ever talks about mercy towards the remorseful, or befriending them, etc. I'm not saying that's right-- all repetant deserve mercy, but just as pedophiles are beyond the pale so are post-abortive women for some ppl.
This is true, but how often do you see pedophiles and convicted murderers who are truly sorry for what they have done? I personally have never seen a murderer or a pedophile crying with remorse or trying to change laws to make it more difficult to murder people or molest children.

reply from: Shiprahagain

There are many repetant murders. For example, Karly Faye Tucker.

reply from: faithman

...and Karla met justice. Too bad their is none for the pre-born...

reply from: ThunderKitten

I think for some, an action can be so contemptable that it cannot be forgiven, no matter what was behind the action nor how the person feels about it afterward. And with contempt of the action comes contempt of the person who willingly caused the action.
I admit it is hard for me to feel otherwise.
Should I feel compassion for a rapist? Someone who willingly aborts her child(ren)? A wife beater? I'm sure I could feign compassion, act compassionate, but why should I feel that way?
Either I should feel compassionate for ALL people who have "crossed the line" (including Hitler) or feel compassionate for none of them. I ask you, does EVERY human on Earth deserve consideration, regardless of their deeds? (And no, this is not a rhetorical question.)

reply from: AshMarie88

But see, I don't think any rapists regret raping people, and I don't think most men regret beating their wives.
However, many women that abort DO regret what they did.
It's different...

reply from: thecatholicamerican

Why? Are we the omnipotent? Who exactly do you think that you are?
Who says? We are talking about mercy? If all you seek is vengence perhaps you might look for a different faith. The only ones that suffer when mercy is applied without justice are the vengeful.
Jesus Christ said that we must forgive not seven times, but seventy times seven times. Jesus Christ on the cross forgave those that killed him, "forgive them Father, they know not what they do."
Perhaps you might explain your brand of justice faithman? Is justice retribution? Is justice reciprocation? What would we do with mothers that have commited abortion? To forgive does not mean to condone. What reparations would we have those mothers make? They cannot bring back the dead. It is wrong and evil to expect them to offer their own lives in return! What is justice?
Cold biblical tyrannicalism is not the answer to the abortion problem.
God is love. The Jesus Christ of the Bible is forgiving. "Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect." We must forgive precisely because Jesus Christ would. All Jesus Christ expected was repentance but even He could forgive the unrepentant because He was God. "Surely this man was the son of God!"
Jesus came in the ressurrection to bring the gospel, the news of His victory over death. He did not come to exact justice. Pray that God grants us mercy and not justice.

reply from: Shiprahagain

I truly do believe they do. As a Christian, I feel we must love our enemies. After all, the man who wrote Amazing Grace was a slave trader. I think he was truly sorry. I once read about a Jewish woman who forgave the Nazi who tortured her sister in the Holocaust -- I can't think of her name right now to post it.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Why? Are we the omnipotent? Who exactly do you think that you are?
Who says? We are talking about mercy? If all you seek is vengence perhaps you might look for a different faith. The only ones that suffer when mercy is applied without justice are the vengeful.
Jesus Christ said that we must forgive not seven times, but seventy times seven times. Jesus Christ on the cross forgave those that killed him, "forgive them Father, they know not what they do."
Perhaps you might explain your brand of justice faithman? Is justice retribution? Is justice reciprocation? What would we do with mothers that have commited abortion? To forgive does not mean to condone. What reparations would we have those mothers make? They cannot bring back the dead. It is wrong and evil to expect them to offer their own lives in return! What is justice?
Cold biblical tyrannicalism is not the answer to the abortion problem.
God is love. The Jesus Christ of the Bible is forgiving. "Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect." We must forgive precisely because Jesus Christ would. All Jesus Christ expected was repentance but even He could forgive the unrepentant because He was God. "Surely this man was the son of God!"
Jesus came in the ressurrection to bring the gospel, the news of His victory over death. He did not come to exact justice. Pray that God grants us mercy and not justice.
Why just question faithman? He's not the only one on this thread talking about having trouble forgiving/giving mercy to some ppl?

reply from: Shiprahagain

But see, I don't think any rapists regret raping people, and I don't think most men regret beating their wives.
However, many women that abort DO regret what they did.
It's different...
That's just the thing- you don't think they regret it. But many of the men most helping in anger management classes and fighting for women are past-abusers. The same way you see rape and wife beating others see abortion. It's not diff -- it's only diff b/c you create a diff. You think it's okay to hold these men in contempt, others think what the women did is beyond the pale.

reply from: holopaw

Because they are in jail.

reply from: holopaw

But see, I don't think any rapists regret raping people, and I don't think most men regret beating their wives.
However, many women that abort DO regret what they did.
It's different...
That's what you think. You don't know. If the Post-Abortive women were in jail. Which is where they should be, you wouldn't know they were sorry. BTW, being sorry doesn't spare you the consequences of your evil act. I could rob a store, kill a man, be very sorry, and still go to jail.

reply from: coco

some view payback as "justice" but that kind of justice will NEVER bring back what is lost!!!

reply from: faithman

You can't bring back, true. But you can honor the lost by giving them value. The value of life is life. Take one you owe yours.

reply from: thecatholicamerican

Are you suggesting the death penalty as a means of justice regarding abortions that have been commited?

reply from: holopaw

But see, I don't think any rapists regret raping people, and I don't think most men regret beating their wives.
However, many women that abort DO regret what they did.
It's different...
That's what you think. You don't know. If the Post-Abortive women were in jail. Which is where they should be, you wouldn't know they were sorry. BTW, being sorry doesn't spare you the condequences of your evil act. I could rob a store, kill a man, be very sorry, and still go to jail.
Yeah, all this might be true, but legal consequences are not the same thing as a personal obligation to treat someone poorly because they committed an act you find deplorable. You get a lot of prisom guards who feel it's their "duty" to go above and beyond the call of duty in order to make the inmates lives as miserable and humiliating as possible. Believe me, it's miserable and humiliating enough without their intentionally treating you like a dog. I think when people take others actions personally, even when the actions didn't affect them personally, those people have a problem they need to deal with.
Like I've said before, once some one has been harmed, there can be no true "justice." Punishing the offender doesn't undo the harm. I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences, though, I firmly believe there should. I just don't think it is up to every individual who deems him/herself "morally superior" is obligated to provide consequences by trying to make people feel bad about what they did, or berating them if we're not satisfied that they are suffering enough. Ideally, we should not want them to suffer any more than we want an unborn child to.
Ash is talking about compassion. he didn't say anything about shunning or harming the person. As I stated any abortionist or post-abortive woman and accompliance should be in jail. The same punishment I would receive if I shot an innocent person.

reply from: laurissamarcotte

You can't bring back, true. But you can honor the lost by giving them value. The value of life is life. Take one you owe yours.
...?! What post-abortive women need is Jesus and healing, not to be put to death! Killing post-abortive women is in no way going to help anything.

reply from: Shiprahagain

I feel that post-abortive women should receive whatever penalty other muderers get. I think the only way not to want the post-abortive women to get the death penalty is to want no murderer to get it (which is fine with me.) Furthermore, if post-abortive women need Jesus and healing only, we should recommend this treatment for all criminals. Post-abortive women are not some special class of criminals. Yes many of them have been misled to think the unborn aren't human -- ppl who commit hate crimes have been misled to think other races aren't human -- that doesn't mean they don't deserve a federal punishment.

reply from: yoda

As long as we insist that there is no moral difference in the right to life of an unborn baby and a born one, then we have no moral reason to think there ought to be a different punishment depending upon which one is killed. It ought to be the same.

reply from: faithman

exactly my point. If a woman was tricked, then man slaughter would be apropiate. All I am trying to say is killer mom gets a skate, and promoted as a hero, when they come out, for what ted bundy, and karla fey lost their lives for. Unless you agree with planned parenthood that pre-borns are second class citizens and deserve no considerstion as a born child.

reply from: coco

Instead of condemming people to death, in my opinion, you most look at the root of the problem!! Many young girls seek out an abortion because of the shame that goes along with being a teen mom, some understand that having a child DOES in fact make life more difficult as far as finacnces and becoming resposible at a young age, so they seek abortion as an alternative. I dont have all the answer but killing IS NOT the answer!!!

reply from: Shiprahagain

Yes, many young girls seek abortions b/c they are lost and confused. Many young boys (and girls) join gangs for the same reason and shoot people. However, for some reason, with abortion, we feel like the fact that someone is lost or confused excuses them in some way.

reply from: coco

No you identify the problem and try diffrent ways on trying to fix it!! Everyone know KILLING IS WRONG, in my opinion that means a month old fetus to a 95 yearold grandma. But killing is not the way to do it TWO WRONGS DONT MAKE IT A RIGHT!!!

reply from: holopaw

Most people on this board would say Nazis were criminal, but since the German govt. organized the slaying of the Jews, they weren't truly criminals. Nor were the slave masters who raped their properties aka slaves. If they lower the age of consent to twelve, any adult who had sex with a kid would be a criminal in my book.

reply from: holopaw


Exactly. I don't understand why people believe Baby killing moms deserve so much compassion.

reply from: laurissamarcotte

Well, yes, I agree with you. Post-abortive women should, when abortion is made illegal, be put into jail IMO (since I'm against the death penalty.) However, since abortion is legal, we can't really throw them in jail. Plus, it's a lot harder to understand that unborn humans are still people.
Lol, concerned just basically said the same thing I just said.

reply from: Shiprahagain

By the by, I too am against the death penalty -- not in an abstract sense, but based on the fact that our society is too prejudiced to operate iy properly.

reply from: faithman

exactly my point. If a woman was tricked, then man slaughter would be apropiate. All I am trying to say is killer mom gets a skate, and promoted as a hero, when they come out, for what ted bundy, and karla fey lost their lives for. Unless you agree with planned parenthood that pre-borns are second class citizens and deserve no considerstion as a born child.
Does the fact that Ted and Karla got the death penalty somehow imply that the victims of homicides that were not punished with the death of the killers were considered to be "second class citizens?" Do you view it as a personal affront when a convicted murderer is allowed to live? Are you offended that people who you feel are morally inferior to you are sometimes allowed to live? Does it offend you when a life is spared?
I have been trying to ignore you, but I'm just amazed at some of your views. I felt compelled to respond, and I hope you consider what I have to say. Please don't let your personal feelings hinder your ability to understand me.
AAAAHHH the baboon boy is using his chimp brain again. Having a hard time distinguishing apple from oarnges are we?If it is death, then it should be death to all murderers. If it is life in prison, then life in prison. What ever you do to the killer of a born child, should be done to the killer of the pre-born. Now monkey mouth, think you can rap your ape brain around that? Oh thats right, because your sis killed a kid, you think killer moms should all get off? Unless they are born?

reply from: yoda

Seems to me you are totally changing the subject. We're not talking about capital punishment, we're talking about uniformity of sentencing.
Or does that subject bore you, perhaps?

reply from: coco

Seems to me you are totally changing the subject. We're not talking about capital punishment, we're talking about uniformity of sentencing.
Or does that subject bore you, perhaps?
Sounds to me like some are talking about capital punishment!! Some are calling for the heads of these post abortive moms and that seems like capital punishment!! you kill someone you should get killed aka capital punishmentis. The execution of a convicted criminal by the State as punishment for crimes known as capital crimes or capital offences.

reply from: danib

It seems that we have gone from "post abortive women are some of the best at turning women away at the clinic" to "throw them all in jail"

reply from: coco

Some on here want them killed!!!

reply from: coco

You can't bring back, true. But you can honor the lost by giving them value. The value of life is life. Take one you owe yours.
...?! What post-abortive women need is Jesus and healing, not to be put to death! Killing post-abortive women is in no way going to help anything.
yoda are we talking about capitol punishment here???

reply from: danib

Some on here want them killed!!!
Well, that would be more efficient since there have been (I believe) 46 million abortions since 1973. It would leave an awful lot of orphans however. Wait, perhaps the problem is it's legality.

reply from: coco

Some on here want them killed!!!
Well, that would be more efficient since there have been (I believe) 46 million abortions since 1973. It would leave an awful lot of orphans however. Wait, perhaps the problem is it's legality.

reply from: coco

Some on here want them killed!!!
Well, that would be more efficient since there have been (I believe) 46 million abortions since 1973. It would leave an awful lot of orphans however. Wait, perhaps the problem is it's legality.
THAT MANY??? WOW

reply from: coco

Seems to me you are totally changing the subject. We're not talking about capital punishment, we're talking about uniformity of sentencing.
Or does that subject bore you, perhaps?
Actually, Coco did not broach that subject, but merely responded to a poster who did. The original topic was compassion for post-abortive mothers, but apparently some posters can't bring themselves to feel any, choosing instead to discuss legal consequences. Why would you criticize Coco for "changing the subject" yet not object to other posters doing so? Do you have something personal against Coco? (I think I already know the answer to that)
I just think that it is messed up that people have such double standards on here it seems when I try to "defend" myself when someone attacks me I am called "abrasive" yet it is ok for people to try to "pick" on me why??? Cp I thought I was the only one that had noticed that!!!

reply from: coco

Seems to me you are totally changing the subject. We're not talking about capital punishment, we're talking about uniformity of sentencing.
Or does that subject bore you, perhaps?
Actually, Coco did not broach that subject, but merely responded to a poster who did. The original topic was compassion for post-abortive mothers, but apparently some posters can't bring themselves to feel any, choosing instead to discuss legal consequences. Why would you criticize Coco for "changing the subject" yet not object to other posters doing so? Do you have something personal against Coco? (I think I already know the answer to that)
I just think that it is messed up that people have such double standards on here it seems when I try to "defend" myself when someone attacks me I am called "abrasive" yet it is ok for people to try to "pick" on me why??? Cp I thought I was the only one that had noticed that!!!
Yoda what do you have against me??? I never make any personal attacks on ANYBODY!! I never put myself on a hierarchy, or call people names so what is your problem with me!! I just would like to know??? I am not here for a popularty contest ( judging on my score ranking LOL thats funny to me).

reply from: Shiprahagain

Obviously Yoda doesn't have anything against Coco or any of the other prolifers. He is responding to specific issues not attacking posters. The fact is that I don't know why we define compassion towards post-abortive women as the removal of consequences for their actions. I have compassion towards former abusive men -- many of them are the best at stoping other men from being abusers just like post-abortive women make good activists -- however, my compassion doesn't mean they shouldn't be jailed.

reply from: yoda

You quote only one other poster, and say "we"?
Where's the "we"?

reply from: yoda

I dislike your habit of changing the subject away from abortion constantly.
Like when you demand to know what I "have against you"?
Ever try to talk about abortion?

reply from: yoda

Well said, Shiprah.
Just as we may have sympathy for a convict who has served his time and has repented of his actions and the harm he caused to society, we may also have sympathy for a woman who has killed her baby but regrets her awful deed. But if that awful deed were against the law, most of us would be in favor of her "serving her time" as well, I believe.

reply from: coco

I dislike your habit of changing the subject away from abortion constantly.
Like when you demand to know what I "have against you"?
Ever try to talk about abortion?
abortion is a cause you MUST get to the root of a problem to FIX the cause!!! Yoda almost everyone on here agrees that abortion is wrong!!!! I thought this board was to elaborate on why they think it is wrong and POSSIBLY change the minds of others but what I thought was TOTALLY wrong according to you!!! BTW the subject is always changing people bring up the holocust, slavery, religion, birth control, etc and these acts and subjects have nothing to do with the ACT of abortion but I dont see YOU jumping down anyones throat but MINE!!!

reply from: yoda

"Root of the problem"?
What IS the "root of the problem of abortion", IYO?
Let's drop all the personal crap here and talk about that, okay?

reply from: Shiprahagain

I dislike your habit of changing the subject away from abortion constantly.
Like when you demand to know what I "have against you"?
Ever try to talk about abortion?
abortion is a cause you MUST get to the root of a problem to FIX the cause!!! Yoda almost everyone on here agrees that abortion is wrong!!!! I thought this board was to elaborate on why they think it is wrong and POSSIBLY change the minds of others but what I thought was TOTALLY wrong according to you!!! BTW the subject is always changing people bring up the holocust, slavery, religion, birth control, etc and these acts and subjects have nothing to do with the ACT of abortion but I dont see YOU jumping down anyones throat but MINE!!!
Thanks, Yoda. Coco, we have to get to the root of abortion and deal with the fruits of it to address the subject completely. This thread was about how to deal with post-abortive women -- in other words, not so much the roots of abortion but what to do after it occurs. When ppl bring up things like slavery and holocaust they are related to abortion b/c they are the abuse of ppl who were dehumanized and important social metaphors that can help us learn about present day fights. Saying that slavery has nothing to do with abortion and that we can't learn from it is like someone telling Martin Luther King that colonialism had nothing to do with civil rights and he couldn't learn from Gandhi. What can ostensibly seem to be unrelated isn't necessarily so.

reply from: coco

Some of the root of the problem is that teens and adults are going to have sex regaurdless of what you or I want, if he hide birthcontrol abortion is going to keep on happening that is just a given!!! We must encourage abstinance but also realize we live in an imperfect world and that birth control may be needed!!! And that will not get rid of the problem but it would curtail it some what!! We also need to keep kids active not burn them out but after school when parents are not home yet and they have the 2 hour window of opptunity to have no parental or adult supervision!!

reply from: coco

I dislike your habit of changing the subject away from abortion constantly.
Like when you demand to know what I "have against you"?
Ever try to talk about abortion?
abortion is a cause you MUST get to the root of a problem to FIX the cause!!! Yoda almost everyone on here agrees that abortion is wrong!!!! I thought this board was to elaborate on why they think it is wrong and POSSIBLY change the minds of others but what I thought was TOTALLY wrong according to you!!! BTW the subject is always changing people bring up the holocust, slavery, religion, birth control, etc and these acts and subjects have nothing to do with the ACT of abortion but I dont see YOU jumping down anyones throat but MINE!!!
Thanks, Yoda. Coco, we have to get to the root of abortion and deal with the fruits of it to address the subject completely. This thread was about how to deal with post-abortive women -- in other words, not so much the roots of abortion but what to do after it occurs. When ppl bring up things like slavery and holocaust they are related to abortion b/c they are the abuse of ppl who were dehumanized and important social metaphors that can help us learn about present day fights. Saying that slavery has nothing to do with abortion and that we can't learn from it is like someone telling Martin Luther King that colonialism had nothing to do with civil rights and he couldn't learn from Gandhi. What can ostensibly seem to be unrelated isn't necessarily so.
Some people want to kill the women who have them done so that ties into abortion as well it ties into post abortion and actually this thread was dealing with the coldness that some in the pro life sector have regaurding these women.
MLK was not "avaliable" during colonal times so he has nothing to do with the ACT Of colonialism what he did however was form his ideas form that time period.

reply from: yoda

I'm not sure I'm following you here, are you saying that because of human nature there will always be abortion?
If that is what you are saying, my question is "so what"? Because of human nature, there will always be all kinds of horrible things going on, but so what? Murder, robbery, and all sorts of wicked things will always be with us, but so what?
So then your solution to abortion is "birth control"? Now I have no problem with any contraceptive that can be proven not to ever cause the death of an innocent human being, but many types of bc are actually abortifacient themselves, so they "solve the problem" by killing the baby before the abortionist can collect a fee!
Isn't that like "solving murder" by using genocide to reduce the population?

reply from: coco

You will NEVER stop abortion no matter what just like they try to stop drugs its going to happen that is a given In my opinon abortion is here to stay!! but you can curtail the numbers by making birth control acessible. And when I talk about birth control I am not limiting it to the pills it includes condoms, foams, jellys, "natural birth control", etc...

reply from: Shiprahagain

Again, you have read quickly and inaccurately. MLK was alive during the colonialism of India and the lifetime of Gandhi. I didn't say he had something to do with colonialism but that he was inspired by the movement. When you read something so shoddily you really lose crediblity.

reply from: coco

Thanks, Yoda. Coco, we have to get to the root of abortion and deal with the fruits of it to address the subject completely. This thread was about how to deal with post-abortive women -- in other words, not so much the roots of abortion but what to do after it occurs. When ppl bring up things like slavery and holocaust they are related to abortion b/c they are the abuse of ppl who were dehumanized and important social metaphors that can help us learn about present day fights. Saying that slavery has nothing to do with abortion and that we can't learn from it is like someone telling Martin Luther King that colonialism had nothing to do with civil rights and he couldn't learn from Gandhi. What can ostensibly seem to be unrelated isn't necessarily so.
In the statement above you did not mention colonialization of INDIA, I thought you were talking about American coloiniolism since mlk was an american and you made refrence to him!! you just said " he couldn't learn from Gandhi. When you write something make sure you clearly state the whole point for someone to understand what you are trying to state.

reply from: Shiprahagain

I said MLK learned from Gandhi's relationship with colonialism so clearly that mean's India's colonialism. We know from Tam's example on another thread that you often blame other posters when you misread something. I didn't say he couldn't learn from Gandhi, I said that he could learn from Gandhi just although the issues were diff just as pro-lifers can learn from slavery and the holocaust -- making such historical examples relevant. Is my point clear now or do I need to throw in some gratuitious punctuation marks for good measure?

reply from: yoda

I thought I covered that in my last post, but here goes.......
Yes, I know we'll never stop abortion, just like we'll never stop murder, robbery, kidnapping, etc. But so what?
Like I said, as long as it doesn't kill a human being.......

reply from: domsmom

I had an abortion when I was 18(19?). I had never even thought about abortion before and was pretty much coheresed into it by parents and b/f. i also feel (now) as if i caused another abortion in 2003 because I had a copper T IUD as my birthcontrol and miscarried around the 6th week. Until I became pregnant in '04 I had no idea that a pregnancy was'nt just a "clump of cells" until the end of the first trimester. I had always wondered why I hated myself and struggled with severe deppression and drug abuse for so long. i also wondered why I kept wanting baby, after baby, after baby. When I discovered in '04 what I had done to my babies, it all finally became clear to me. I've been suffering so because I had murdered my precious babies! On a subconcious level, i knew it was wrong. But when your a desperate young woman you will grab a hold of what your doctors and parents tell you.And you think that because of my ignorance I should be sentenced to jail and shown no compasion? While I now know what I did, things are getting better but FAR from OK. I dont know that I will ever completely forgive myself. But people like you make the recovery process extremely hard.
Dont get me wrong, I think women who are "hip to the game" but still choose to kill their babies aare a totally different breed of person and should'nt be shown compasion.

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

I had an abortion when I was 18(19?). I had never even thought about abortion before and was pretty much coheresed into it by parents and b/f. i also feel (now) as if i caused another abortion in 2003 because I had a copper T IUD as my birthcontrol and miscarried around the 6th week. Until I became pregnant in '04 I had no idea that a pregnancy was'nt just a "clump of cells" until the end of the first trimester. I had always wondered why I hated myself and struggled with severe deppression and drug abuse for so long. i also wondered why I kept wanting baby, after baby, after baby. When I discovered in '04 what I had done to my babies, it all finally became clear to me. I've been suffering so because I had murdered my precious babies! On a subconcious level, i knew it was wrong. But when your a desperate young woman you will grab a hold of what your doctors and parents tell you.And you think that because of my ignorance I should be sentenced to jail and shown no compasion? While I now know what I did, things are getting better but FAR from OK. I dont know that I will ever completely forgive myself. But people like you make the recovery process extremely hard.
Dont get me wrong, I think women who are "hip to the game" but still choose to kill their babies aare a totally different breed of person and should'nt be shown compasion.
Many people are deceived and unknowing in their teens and 20s. When they hear abortion is acceptable they jump at the opportunity to get rid of their problem. The false message of society makes having an abortion easier, even though there is that tugging nagging feeling deep inside that something is wrong; that abortion may be a wrong thing. A young person has an abortion half knowing it is wrong but being comforted by society that it is really all right.
People who have made mistakes, admitted so to themselves, and decided to live honorable and decent lives should be fully accepted. It's all about what we become, not what we were.
If a woman, or man, has not yet admitted that anything was improper, and continues to support abortion, you can bet I will try to get the seriousness of their lifestyle across to them by referring to them as no good for nothing low-lifers.

reply from: ThunderKitten

It's fine with me if people want to be compassionate and stuff towrds post-abort moms, but the way I feel... I can't do it. You really have to feel it to be comforting and help someone.
Ah, but there is a difference. With abortion, it's nobody we know...
ConcernedParent- I appreciate your thoughtful responses. I will think on them. However, after speaking about compassion, you then indicated you thought that they should be in jail (if abortion is illegalized). I'm wondering, though, what, in your view, is the purpose of imprisionment and how does that fit your view of compassion towards those who've aborted? It seems a bit contridictory.
Yeah, you're right danib, it has gone from "post abortive women are some of the best at turning women away at the clinic" to "throw them all in jail". Somehow, I don't think that women who have had abortions would be persuaded to join the pro-life movment, especially the criminalizing of abortion, if they thought that those who have abortions would wind up in jail. But just for the record... what's your view?
When a woman is "expecting a baby", I consider her and her baby equally. Both are special. If I can help I would gladly do so. When a woman is "considering abortion" my concern turns entirely toward the child. If helping the child means helping the woman, that's what should be done, but then I feel like the baby is being held hostage- "If I don't get the support I need, the kid gets it!"
Abortion affects my view of pregnancy- it's hard to acknowledge and appreciate a woman's fears about having a baby. It's hard to admit what having a baby really would mean and how it would affect her, because in the back of my mind is the fear that she might abort. It taints the joy I should be feeling towards those who are bringing new lives into the world. And it cheapens motherhood.
Sure, being nice is a good idea.

reply from: faithman

I had an abortion when I was 18(19?). I had never even thought about abortion before and was pretty much coheresed into it by parents and b/f. i also feel (now) as if i caused another abortion in 2003 because I had a copper T IUD as my birthcontrol and miscarried around the 6th week. Until I became pregnant in '04 I had no idea that a pregnancy was'nt just a "clump of cells" until the end of the first trimester. I had always wondered why I hated myself and struggled with severe deppression and drug abuse for so long. i also wondered why I kept wanting baby, after baby, after baby. When I discovered in '04 what I had done to my babies, it all finally became clear to me. I've been suffering so because I had murdered my precious babies! On a subconcious level, i knew it was wrong. But when your a desperate young woman you will grab a hold of what your doctors and parents tell you.And you think that because of my ignorance I should be sentenced to jail and shown no compasion? While I now know what I did, things are getting better but FAR from OK. I dont know that I will ever completely forgive myself. But people like you make the recovery process extremely hard.
Dont get me wrong, I think women who are "hip to the game" but still choose to kill their babies aare a totally different breed of person and should'nt be shown compasion.
Do unto others what you would have them do to you. Justice must be some what logical, void of emotion, and fare to all. The conveniance killing of an inocent child is what? If it is wrong, justice demands a penalty. It should be what? The recovery process should be easy? If you were chopped up into bits, what would you want done about the person who did the deed? Do you have more rights than a womb child because you are born?

reply from: yoda

Ah, but there is a difference. With abortion, it's nobody we know...
I don't quite follow you....... how does our being aquainted with a born person give them more of a moral right to life?

reply from: Shiprahagain

I had an abortion when I was 18(19?). I had never even thought about abortion before and was pretty much coheresed into it by parents and b/f. i also feel (now) as if i caused another abortion in 2003 because I had a copper T IUD as my birthcontrol and miscarried around the 6th week. Until I became pregnant in '04 I had no idea that a pregnancy was'nt just a "clump of cells" until the end of the first trimester. I had always wondered why I hated myself and struggled with severe deppression and drug abuse for so long. i also wondered why I kept wanting baby, after baby, after baby. When I discovered in '04 what I had done to my babies, it all finally became clear to me. I've been suffering so because I had murdered my precious babies! On a subconcious level, i knew it was wrong. But when your a desperate young woman you will grab a hold of what your doctors and parents tell you.And you think that because of my ignorance I should be sentenced to jail and shown no compasion? While I now know what I did, things are getting better but FAR from OK. I dont know that I will ever completely forgive myself. But people like you make the recovery process extremely hard.
Dont get me wrong, I think women who are "hip to the game" but still choose to kill their babies aare a totally different breed of person and should'nt be shown compasion.
Once abortion is illegal, it will not matter whether women are ignorant or not about a baby's humanity, they know they are commiting a crime so they should be jailed. I do have compassion for you, but I don't think that saying those who take life should be punished, even if it does making healing difficult, is wrong. For example, I think repentant, lost, confused, gang members should still be punished.

reply from: ThunderKitten

It doesn't. I guess "tone of voice" doesn't travel the internet very well... I was trying to poke fun at pro-choice. Like, maybe they're ok with it because they don't know the person getting killed. Sorry, I didn't mean that to be taken as my actual opinion.

reply from: holopaw

I had an abortion when I was 18(19?). I had never even thought about abortion before and was pretty much coheresed into it by parents and b/f. i also feel (now) as if i caused another abortion in 2003 because I had a copper T IUD as my birthcontrol and miscarried around the 6th week. Until I became pregnant in '04 I had no idea that a pregnancy was'nt just a "clump of cells" until the end of the first trimester. I had always wondered why I hated myself and struggled with severe deppression and drug abuse for so long. i also wondered why I kept wanting baby, after baby, after baby. When I discovered in '04 what I had done to my babies, it all finally became clear to me. I've been suffering so because I had murdered my precious babies! On a subconcious level, i knew it was wrong. But when your a desperate young woman you will grab a hold of what your doctors and parents tell you.And you think that because of my ignorance I should be sentenced to jail and shown no compasion? While I now know what I did, things are getting better but FAR from OK. I dont know that I will ever completely forgive myself. But people like you make the recovery process extremely hard.
Dont get me wrong, I think women who are "hip to the game" but still choose to kill their babies aare a totally different breed of person and should'nt be shown compasion.
Yes, you are deserving of compassion. However, I don't believe you deserve any more compassion than a repentent rapist, pedophile, or drug pusher. If I were to rape a minor, I'd be villified until I died a lonely old man. No one would assume that I'm sorry. A post-abortive woman is barely out of the abortion mill before people start assuming that she is repentent, sorry, and deserving of compassion. Not all post-abortive women are sorry. Just because I am a sorry they killed their child, does not mean they ever will be.
Since I think a person who intentionally kills a four year old child should go to jail and I value an embryo as much as I value a 4 year old than yes, I believe you should have gone to jail. Even sorry people deserve the consequences of their actions.
I believe your ignorance was self-induced. Ask a six year old where babies come from. Give him two choices. I bet one of them will entail the pointing to a person's stomach. If they know it's a baby inside, than a person who is 18, knows as well.

reply from: holopaw

The only halfway decent reason. I don't believe I would ever call a woman a baby killer, but I would think it. And post-abortive women are baby killers.

reply from: holopaw

How could she not?
The same way some buttwipe killed Jessica Lumsford and has yet to show a bit of remorse. Hitler was responsible for the murder of millions. Do you think he was remorseful? People can be selfish, do evil things, and not show remorse. That is life!

reply from: yoda

It doesn't. I guess "tone of voice" doesn't travel the internet very well... I was trying to poke fun at pro-choice. Like, maybe they're ok with it because they don't know the person getting killed. Sorry, I didn't mean that to be taken as my actual opinion.
Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I sometimes use this to indicate the "tov" you're talking about: </sarcasm>

reply from: yoda

Same with other people who are guilty of a horrible act, but deeply regret it. But for those who are proud of their act, or brag about it........ yes, I think the term babykiller is most definately appropriate. And the term "babykilling advocate" fits EVERYONE who espouses the probabykiller doctrine, IMHO.

reply from: domsmom

I had an abortion when I was 18(19?). I had never even thought about abortion before and was pretty much coheresed into it by parents and b/f. i also feel (now) as if i caused another abortion in 2003 because I had a copper T IUD as my birthcontrol and miscarried around the 6th week. Until I became pregnant in '04 I had no idea that a pregnancy was'nt just a "clump of cells" until the end of the first trimester. I had always wondered why I hated myself and struggled with severe deppression and drug abuse for so long. i also wondered why I kept wanting baby, after baby, after baby. When I discovered in '04 what I had done to my babies, it all finally became clear to me. I've been suffering so because I had murdered my precious babies! On a subconcious level, i knew it was wrong. But when your a desperate young woman you will grab a hold of what your doctors and parents tell you.And you think that because of my ignorance I should be sentenced to jail and shown no compasion? While I now know what I did, things are getting better but FAR from OK. I dont know that I will ever completely forgive myself. But people like you make the recovery process extremely hard.
Dont get me wrong, I think women who are "hip to the game" but still choose to kill their babies aare a totally different breed of person and should'nt be shown compasion.
Do unto others what you would have them do to you. Justice must be some what logical, void of emotion, and fare to all. The conveniance killing of an inocent child is what? If it is wrong, justice demands a penalty. It should be what? The recovery process should be easy? If you were chopped up into bits, what would you want done about the person who did the deed? Do you have more rights than a womb child because you are born?
Ok, I give up. Come and chop me up into little bits.
All I'm saying is that I'm already suffering enough w/ my own guilt without people calling me babykiller and whatnot. And no, the recovery process shouldnt be easy, how in the hell could it be? But I do happen to be sorry for what I did. Had it been Illegal I wouldnt have done it. While I know now that didnt make it OK, I didnt know it then. Every one was telling me the opposite of what I was feeling; I thought I was the crazy one. Anyway, I've learned from my mistake. That all I need I suppose.

reply from: Shiprahagain

I guess what I'm saying domsmom is, if a gangster shoots a child and is suffering and guilty would you not call him a child killer? Do you not call pedophiles child molester's if they are suffering and guilty? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just interested and know if, with other crimes, you should change your terminology is the person regrets their act?

reply from: coco

WE ALL MAKE BAD CHOICES IN LIFE!!! Domsmom is no exception to that but she is remorsefull and wants to learn from that choice and share with others so THEY wont make the same MISTAKE she made. I would not call her a KILLER because she was misinformed on the subject!!! Those who are informed and are not remorsefull then I PRAY FOR THOSE PEOPLE!! YOU DONT HAVE TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF DOMSMOM WE ARE ONLY HUMAN BEINGS THE ONLY ONE YOU MUST ASK FOR FORGIVNESS (if you believe) IS THE MAN UPSTAIRS!!

reply from: yoda

The truth can be used in many ways. And it is absolutely true that those who voluntarily have abortions are child/baby killers. That is the plain, naked truth, and there is no point in trying to deny that.
However, IMO there is also no point in beating someone over the head with their past deeds for which they are ashamed, regretful, and remorseful. If they are truly remorseful about it, they will beat themselves up. If not, then they are legitimate targets for the repeated, loud use of the term "babykiller" used in the harshest manner possible.

reply from: holopaw

The only halfway decent reason. I don't believe I would ever call a woman a baby killer, but I would think it. And post-abortive women are baby killers.
I find it most interesting that you say, "I don't believe I would ever call a woman a baby killer," and then do so in the very next sentence.

To her face. I know many post-abortive women. I would not call them baby killers in an attempt to make them feel bad out of the blue. However, I'm not scared to wear a shirt equivicating abortion with murder and if a post-abortive person asked if abortion was murder, I'd say yes.

reply from: holopaw

So what do we do? Judge each individual and decide how much compassion they deserve? Holo, you will almost certainly make mistakes, and you will also likely come to new realizations about things as you mature and come to regret some decisions you will make. I honestly hope some of you aren't as hard on yourselves as you seem to be on others when and if that time comes for you.
The entire point of this dialogue is to express that Post-Abortive women are not the saints of the criminal pantheon. If you are going to give some repetent people the benefit of the doubt, than you should give it to all of them. Why does society embrace the repetent post abortive woman and not the repetent spouse abuser or repetent drunk driver? Don't assume I'm not mature. I'm old enough to have an adult child. I've made mistakes, but none have involved the intentional killing of a human being.
Dom's mom is struggling. I understand that. I hope day comes when she finds solace. However, if in two years, I post on the board that I slept with a 17 year old and I'm truly repetent, I'd hope I'd get the same support as she receives.
And vocalizing this sentiment was motivated by what logic?
It explains why I believe a woman who has had an abortion should do time in jail. Many Pro-Lifers believe they should not go to jail. This is not logical unless they believe a woman or man who kills their four year old should not go to jail. You can have compassion for a person and still expect them to be punished.
You have the right to feel this way, of course, I'd just like to know what is the reasoning behind your compulsion to share a view that has a real potential to do more harm by sharing it. Do you feel that we, as human beings, are not obligated to be sensitive to the feelings of all other people, just the ones we deem worthy of such consideration? Would it bother you if some post-abortive mother came to this site and read the condemnations (basically, "babykiller! There's no excuse for what you did! You don't deserve compassion!"), then felt so guilty she committed suicide?
It's an abortion discussion forum. What good does it do not to share opinions if we are simply going to chant the PC mantra?. If you want PC tripe, go to some moderated forum or "Embracethepostabortive.com" or Rachel's Vinyard. Substitute pedophile for post abortive woman and see if you view things differently.
Please tell me what is the reasoning behind people making these kinds of statements and implications. Is this supposed to help save future victims, or is it just an attempt to punish them by making them feel bad? If a woman felt so guilty that she took her own life, would you feel she "got what she deserved?"
A person committing suicide is their business. I can't force a person to commit suicide any more than I could force them to have a bowel movement.

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

Women who abort are murdering living human beings. The lady who killed another mother and stole her unborn baby and drown the three older children and dumped them into a wash machine; should we be showing deep understanding and compassion and try real hard to understand where she is coming from? Or should we be like Jesus, in her face letting her know she is a child of Satan. The murderers reactions were to pick up stones to kill Jesus. (John 8) It's the same today. If you tell sincere followers of Muhammad they are murderers they'll kill you. Most people in this world are murderers, with murder in their heart (whether killing in the name of choice, their so-called god, their selfish desires, etc.). My ministry has always been to tell people they are murderers and unacceptable. Men have to do a 180 degree turn or they will kill everyone and destroy everything.

reply from: holopaw

Please don't let them bother you. Even though I'm a man, I think I can understand what you've been through, and I understand that some of the posters on this thread have been very insensitive. I also realize that you are not the only person who is sometimes distressed by these kinds of callous remarks on this forum. I applaud your courage in being open about your past despite the risk of enduring contempt and condemnation as a result of doing so.
I wonder how many others who have read on this forum chose not to share rather than risk it? Regardless of the feelings of some, none of us are "better" than you just because they might feel the mistakes you have made are "unforgivable." IMHO, the contempt of some show that they really are not "morally superior" to anyone, especially in light of the potential harm that could be done to strangers on this forum due to their insensitivity. We all make mistakes, and none of us is superior to another just because we view our mistakes as more acceptable.
Like I stated earlier if a person is looking for compassion and solace only there are many post abortive forums to visit. The consequences of some mistakes are worse than other. Drinkng and driving can cause much more harm than other mistakes.

reply from: AshMarie88

By telling a post-abortion-depressed woman there are other forums to visit, you are basically turning them away and they would probably feel like you hate them or don't care about them. Correct me if I'm wrong.

reply from: yoda

I can't speak for anyone else, but my top priority is to prevent future abortions, not to ease the conscience of women and men who have caused abortions in the past. While thousands of babies are being killed every day, I am not going to go out of my way to comfort someone's painful conscience over a past abortion. I think that memories of abortion ought to be painful, otherwise why are we here?
Now if such a person wants to use their past blunder in having an abortion to come here to warn others not to follow in their example, I welcome that person's participation. They are living proof of the horror of knowing that you have killed your own flesh and blood for selfish reasons, and they are powerful deterents to abortion.

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

The above statement is true.
Pain is our body or mind's way of telling us something is wrong and corrective action may need to be taken. Pain is to help keep us from destroying ourselves. (Those with leprosy lose their sense of pain and often continue to act in a way that damages a limb until it is destroyed; they have no "get the hand off the hot stove" reaction.)
It is a good sign if women or men's consciences are paining them after killing a child.
I believe pointing out to someone that they are a child murderer is a subject to be brought up with the clueless; those that have no remorse or feelings of guilt. Maybe their conscience will still operate if there remains any humanity in the person.
Shame, guilt and the pain that come with them are tools that are intended to be used to bring us back to the path of decency.
No one should be swallowed up in too much sorrow; but rather, forgiven and comforted if they forsake the prior deadly lifestyle. (2 Corinthians 2:7) Our love should be reaffirmed to such a person. (2 Cor 2:8)
Paul's preliminary call for one commiting sexual fornication was for "tough love", to not even eat with a person living in such a sinful lifestyle. To put such a person outside of the church. Yet when the man gave up sexual fornication Paul called for the Church to forgive, comfort and reaffirm love.
Baby killers need to understand up front that there is a problem; and they need to quit their selfish ways. The acceptance comes later if they can quit taking a knife to their brother's throat.

reply from: holopaw

By telling a post-abortion-depressed woman there are other forums to visit, you are basically turning them away and they would probably feel like you hate them or don't care about them. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not telling anyone they can or can't come here. I'm not a moderator. It's not my goal to convert people to the Pro-life side nor is it to make post-abortive men or women feel what they did was not so bad. The intentional ending of a child's life is a horrific thing. If they feel bad about the abortion, that is great and I hope they never do it again. Once you repent, you are forgiven by the Lord. That does bring their child back to life. As I stated, this is not Rachel's Vineyard. If a post-abortive person wants unconditional acceptance and compassion there are many forums like that. I do not believe this is one of them! I don't hate anyone. I care about the baby, first and foremost.

reply from: laurissamarcotte

Actually, that's what happened a short while ago. After the Pope said that Muslims killed people who didn't believe in Muhammad, they killed a number of nuns and priests. I read a post on a chat board on lifeteen.com saying that the person who wrote the post knew a nun who recently got killed by a Muslim.

reply from: Shiprahagain

There are Christians running prostitution rings in Thailand under the guise of being missionaries. Just b/c some Christians and Muslims do bad things doesn't mean it's part of their religion. Those ppl aren't real Christians and Muslims.

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

Try this site and see what they have to say http://www.jihadwatch.org or http://www.lauramansfield.com or http://www.worldnetdaily.com
All of these sites expose the grave threat posed to Western civilization by Islamo-fascism.
The 14th century Byzantine ruler that the Pope cited was correct; the only new things that Muhammad brought were evil and inhuman. This I deduce from my own reading of the Qur'an.
The Qur'an was authored by the adversary, Satan. It is in the Spirit of Anti-Christ. The Qur'an says Jesus was not the son of God and did not die for our sins. The Qur'an says it is unjust for one man to die for another's sins. The Qur'an says Allah can forgive sins and it's wrong of the Bible to suggest otherwise. It says a person's belief and good deeds can outweigh the bad deeds. The Qur'an says fighting for Allah with your person or goods will help you achieve forgiveness and the Garden of Bliss. (Certain acts of charity are only sufficient to offset one act of breaking your oath.) But those who don't join in the fight are hypocrites and not believers at all; the Fire of Hell shall be for them. This leads us to terrorism; Muhamed Atta, one of the 9/11 pilots testified that he did better than Christians who confess their faith. Muhammed Atta said, "I fight for Allah." In his mind, what service to God could be greater?

reply from: PaladinCatholic

If a person has had an abortion and is sincerely sorry for it then of course they deserve sympathy and care.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Try this site and see what they have to say http://www.jihadwatch.org or http://www.lauramansfield.com or http://www.worldnetdaily.com
All of these sites expose the grave threat posed to Western civilization by Islamo-fascism.
The 14th century Byzantine ruler that the Pope cited was correct; the only new things that Muhammad brought were evil and inhuman. This I deduce from my own reading of the Qur'an, where more than once Allah's provision of coats of mail to protect us from our violence is among the list of things that we should be grateful to Allah for (so says Allah!)
Do you think I also couldn't pull up Christian sites that show the violence we do? Bush has killed 100,000 civilians in Iraq on what he calls his crusade (I see that and I'm more Republican than democrat). One could easily say that Western Christian facism poses the greatest threat to Islamic civilation. The Doctrine of the Caliphs forbids terrorism. Perhaps you need to study that, or better yet, go to any local mosque and talk to someone who works there and get the truth. But since this is a thread for post-abortive women and not the nature of Islam, I invite further comments to be directed to me by personal message.

reply from: ThunderKitten

Getting back to the subject of inprisionment...
First, I'd have to say that, unless a woman self-aborts, she wouldn't be the killer- the abortionist would. The most she could be charged with is hiring a hitman, or possibly being an accomplice to the crime. I assume the punishment for hiring a killer is less than that for the killer him/herself?
Now, whether I would agree with imprisionment or not morally, there are certain practicle aspects to imprisioning aborters that won't let me even consider wether it would be a good idea in principle.
For instance, no law is perfect, nor are the courts. There is the possibility that someone who is forced to abort could be charged or even convicted. And how would one determine the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage? How might you address those possibilities?
What would be done to protect people who might abort out of fear? Meaning, for example, if the father is a rapist or is otherwise a danger to the mother and/or child? How would you protect mother and child from the father?
I'm certain there are more pertinent issues, but that's what comes to mind at the moment.

reply from: holopaw

I don't understand your question about fear. What does fearing a rapist have to do with abortion? If you fear someone will harm you or your child, call the police.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Also thunderkitten, the risk of accusing a woman of aborting and considering her the killer when she miscarried is equal to the risk of accusing a woman of aborting and calling her a hitman hirer. You would investigate the crime to make sure you aren't imprisoning the innocent. (For example, if you see a woman coming out of a hidden clinic.) I think hirer's of hitmen do get the same punishment as the killers. Someone forced to abort wouldn't be charged with abortion, the person who forced them to would.

reply from: ThunderKitten

Ok, this isn't the kind of example I wanted, exactly, but it does show how a woman might abort out of fear: http://webgroups.us/choicetolivewith/viewtopic.php?t=867
">http://webgroups.us/choicetoli...topic.php?t=867
Basically this woman aborted because she didn't want to lose her other two kids. The man she concieved with was an alcoholic, and she was afraid the father of her other children would use that as an excuse in court to gain sole custody of the two that were his.
Now, I am NOT saying this legitamizes abortion or that abortion shouldn't be illegal. I'm saying issues like this need to be addressed so that people aren't "damned if you do, damned if you don't". And I'm saying it makes me hesitant to agree with long term incarceration for aborters.

reply from: Shiprahagain

The fact that you chose to sleep with an alcoholic doesn't mean that you can kill your baby. If you're the kind of "mother" who will kill one child to keep custody of the others, you should go to prison. You don't get to erase your "mistake" by taking a life because you fear the consequence and then be spared legal punishment. Somebody sleeping with alcoholics and killing babies shouldn't have custody of children anyways.

reply from: ThunderKitten

Maybe I need to find better examples?
Yeah, you've got a point about the example I found.

reply from: faithman

The issue is simply this: Is a pre-born child a person? If so, then they deserve full protection under the law from killer mom no matter the excuse you want to cook up for them. Hypotheticals are no substitute for justice for all. ALL either includes the womb child or not. If justice for all includes them then the coconspirator [killer mom] deserve to be punished as anyone guilty of cutting little children up in bits.

reply from: ThunderKitten

So, I just heard today that back before Roe vs. Wade that women who got caught aborting did indeed go to jail, although the charge was manslaughter. Now, considering the source I heard this from, it could be downright B.S., but in case it's not, could someone explain how things went down, like the implications this had and such?
I'm thinking, if this is true, it's better to refer to history rather than just speculate on how imprisionment of aborters might affect things.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Actually,before women who had abortions didn't go to jail. Abortionists were jailed and women were considered witnesses to the crime.

reply from: yoda

Rumors like that are always unsubstantiated, undocumented, unproven...... that's why we call them "rumors".

reply from: faithman

The issue is simply this: Is a pre-born child a person? If so, then they deserve full protection under the law from killer mom no matter the excuse you want to cook up for them. Hypotheticals are no substitute for justice for all. ALL either includes the womb child or not. If justice for all includes them then the coconspirator [killer mom] deserve to be punished as anyone guilty of cutting little children up in bits.


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