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Humans - An endangered species?

by: AshMarie88

There was an argument a few days ago about endagered species. First, eagle eggs were brought up in the debate and pro-choicers were saying they are more important and endangered because there are few eggs. They also said that people can keep having babies later on, so humans aren't endangered.
But, if they keep killing off all the children whenever they feel like it, we WILL become endangered, and possibly extinct. If they keep killing kids the way they do... well... who will be the future?
What do you guys think?

reply from: Shiprahagain

Humans are endangered right now http://www.pop.org/main.cfm?EID=829

reply from: laurissamarcotte

Good point! I think Alexandra (or Tam) said once for the human race to survive families need to have an average of 3 children, but the average now, because of abortion, is 2.5 or something.

reply from: nsanford

We're fine. While birthrates are plummeting, death rates are as well. So we're still growing as a population. Why, in the next fifty years, experts predict that the world population will be 9 billion. http://www.prb.org/Content/NavigationMenu/PRB/Educators/Human_Population/Population_Growth/Population_Growth.htm#growth

reply from: Shiprahagain

Death rates are plummeting? Are those statistics including the millions who die from abortion?

reply from: Tam

Great point, Shiprah. Undoubtedly, the statistics do not include the deaths of those murdered in the womb.

reply from: AshMarie88

The babies that die from abortions everyday sure aren't "fine".

reply from: Virginia

Why are you debating?

reply from: AshMarie88

Because debating is okay here?
I love debating.

reply from: Virginia

Do you see as serving any sort of tangible purpose?

reply from: AshMarie88

Yea. Defending my views and getting others to see why we think pro-choicers are wrong.
Why are you against debating?

reply from: Virginia

I feel it serves no purpose. Minds are not changed with words, they're changed with action.
I haven't found any kind and humane action within this cause.
I have seen angry protesters, experienced first hand violence, listened to slander and hateful words.
My only question would be...why?
Why not voice opinions and act accordingly, without hateful action and ignorant bias?
People who support abortion remaining legal are indeed human. They deserve to be treated as so. They've had different experiences and very different lives.
I don't see how screaming "Baby Killer!" at a distressed and pained woman who has been forced into such an option by contemporary society helps the cause or the woman..or the baby, for that matter.

reply from: AshMarie88

"I feel it serves no purpose. Minds are not changed with words, they're changed with action."
Are you sure about that?
"I haven't found any kind and humane action within this cause.
I have seen angry protesters, experienced first hand violence, listened to slander and hateful words."
Funny, that is the EXACT same thing I see with most pro-aborts. They try to run lifers over with cars, they smack them, they curse at us, they vandalize property, they tell some lifers to go die or get raped, sometimes even tell them they should be forced to abort... I have seen WAY MORE choicers do that to people than lifers.
"My only question would be...why?"
Yea, why is that?
"Why not voice opinions and act accordingly, without hateful action and ignorant bias?"
We do voice opinions. We also voice facts.
"People who support abortion remaining legal are indeed human. They deserve to be treated as so. They've had different experiences and very different lives."
So have pro-lifers, but you don't see them whining about how horrible life can be most of the time...
Pro-choicers are human, yes, that's pretty obvious. It has to do with biology. BUT so are "fetuses", but you don't think they should be treated as such, do you?
"I don't see how screaming "Baby Killer!""
Not every pro-lifer screams that.
"at a distressed and pained woman who has been forced into such an option by contemporary society helps the cause or the woman..or the baby, for that matter."
How do you know the woman has been forced? What if she was sleeping around with every guy in town and finds herself pregnant and wants to get rid of the baby so she can go have more sex?

reply from: Virginia

That's right! I bet she was sleeping around with every guy in town! And she'll be much better once she becomes a Christian!!
Christians have been the cause of more violence in the world than any other group of people. Don't believe that? (Of course not!)
Look it up! Heard of any wars based on pushing the spread of Christianity? On killing people who don't share the same faith?
Hey, they were just spreading the word of "Christ!"
And once again, you are right, you don't see Anti-Choicers bemoaning life..they are too busy trying to change everyone elses.
How many times have you stood outside an abortion clinic?
The idea of people trying to change each other's opinions is so funny to me. I'll never change anyones. I don't plan to. I'm satisfied with looking at the number of abortion clinics that have been built in the States only since the start of 2006.
One question, what about the women who will die if abortion was "illegal" getting underground abortions and having home abortions?
Do they deserve to?

reply from: Shiprahagain

Yep. This forum is a healing place for post-abortive men and women and impregnated rape victims, a training ground for activists, and a think tank.

reply from: Shiprahagain

What does Christianity have to do with abortion? http://atheistsforlife.org/

reply from: Virginia

www.imnotsorry.org
Do men have wombs too!?!? WOW!

reply from: AshMarie88

"Christians have been the cause of more violence in the world than any other group of people. Don't believe that? (Of course not!)"
Really? Because if I remember right, it's MUSLIMS that bomb people, cut off their heads, attack more innocent people, etc. I have never seen a Christian, in my life, act violent. They may spread the word about what they believe in, but that's NOT violent. Christians aren't a religious group of haters or violent people, but Muslims are.
"Look it up! Heard of any wars based on pushing the spread of Christianity? On killing people who don't share the same faith?
Hey, they were just spreading the word of "Christ!""
On killing people who don't share the same faith, yea I have heard of it, they're called Muslims. Or, sometimes, Satanists.
"And once again, you are right, you don't see Anti-Choicers bemoaning life..they are too busy trying to change everyone elses."
While you're trying to kill it...
"How many times have you stood outside an abortion clinic?"
None. I don't want to.
"The idea of people trying to change each other's opinions is so funny to me. I'll never change anyones. I don't plan to."
Obvious.
"I'm satisfied with looking at the number of abortion clinics that have been built in the States only since the start of 2006."
Yea, I bet you are. The more abortion clinics there are, the more babies that are killed, the more an abortionist makes. Yay for the smell and sight of a bunch of dead babies!!!
"One question, what about the women who will die if abortion was "illegal" getting underground abortions and having home abortions?"
What about the women who still die today from LEGAL abortions? What about Killer Tiller's last famous abortion procedure that killed both a mentally handicapped girl Christine(sp?) and her child?
And aren't illegal abortions a choice, as well?
"Do they deserve to?"
It depends on your definition of "deserve". I don't like the thought of women dying, but I don't like the thought of them trying to kill their babies and not being punished for it. I think if women try to have abortions, they should be put in jail.

reply from: AshMarie88

Oh, a bunch of stories of women who feel nothing for what they did to their children... Been there before, they disgust me.
Thanks anyway.
And no, men don't have wombs, but they are 50% responsible for creating children, so if they want their child, they should have half the say in keeping it.

reply from: Virginia

Between 75 and 85% of Pro-lifers are Christian.
As stated by the Federal Department of Health and Human Services (2000)
www.operationrescue.org
www.prolifeaction.org
Over 4000 women died in 2005 alone from botched home abortions.
And once again:
One question, what about the women who will die if abortion was "illegal" getting underground abortions and having home abortions?
Do they deserve to?
And if not, how are they helped?

reply from: AshMarie88

So what if most pro-lifers are Christian? Abortion has NOTHING to do with religion. Some pro-lifers may argue religion in abortion, but that's them. I personally don't bring religion into a debate unless the other person who I'm debating with is Christian. Or, claims to be.
Over 1,000,000 babies died from abortions in 2005, but I'd like to see a viable website where it shows 4,000 women died from home abortions.

reply from: Virginia

Full article: Fifth Crusade
"By processions, prayers, and preaching, the Church attempted to set another crusade on foot, and the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) formulated a plan for the recovery of the Holy Land. A crusading force from Hungary, Austria, and Bavaria achieved a remarkable feat in the capture of Damietta in Egypt in 1219, but under the urgent insistence of the papal legate, Pelagius, they proceeded to a foolhardy attack on Cairo, and an inundation of the Nile compelled them to choose between surrender and destruction."
If you've never stood outside an abortion clinic, how have you protected your cause?
Do you know how many abortion clinics have been built since the start of 2006?
You don't.
No one knows for sure, because a good portion of them are now operating underground in order to stay safe from radical Anti-Choice activists.
If Roe vs. Wade was overturned, each individual state would still be able to decide on whether or not abortion would be legal in those states. What kind of victory is that? Women who need abortions can drive to the next state over if they please.
So, if women try to have abortions they should be put in jail? Where do you propose generating the funding necessary for such an endeavor?

reply from: Virginia

Try searching Federal Department of Health and Home Services and their statistics.
Or try searching death statistics on www.unitedjustice.com.
Or you can search state by state death statistics to get the average about per state.
I'd recommend going to wikipedia for death statistics as well.

reply from: Virginia

Also, in relation to my other questions...
There are over 500,000 children living in foster care who are not adopted.
(www.aacap.org)
What do you plan to do about that?
Are you going to give them a home?

reply from: Shiprahagain

Who am I to say who deserves to die. We offer prolife crisis pregnanc centers before they get to that point.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Prolifers are WORLDWIDE.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Yep. Prolifers give kids homes each day. Besides, there are more adoptive familes than there are babies, so should why kill babies when older kids need homes. I don't want to take in a battered wife, should I let her husband kill her. There are tons of women in shelters, should we kill them off?

reply from: Virginia

Children in foster homes bounce around from place to place, have no stability, and have a 75% higher risk of self-destructive behaviors like self-mutilation, anorexia, and drug use(www.fostercaremonth.org)
Pro-lifers AND Pro-choicers give children homes everyday.
It's not enough if there 500,000 waiting to be adopted and probably won't be. (www.fostercaremonth.org)
Women in shelters are not the "property of the state." (www.statehealthfacts.org)
They are not forced by an authoritative power such as state law to stay in a shelter, such as a foster child is forced to bounce from foster home to foster home,

reply from: Virginia

Great!! Is Roe vs. Wade?

reply from: Shiprahagain

So have you asked foster kids if they'd rather be dead than in care? Or do you ignore the voices of the sentient as well? What about foster care girls -- do you want them to have the choice to kill kids but want to deny them the right to live?

reply from: yoda

What do YOU plan to do about that????
Did someone excuse you from all responsibilities towards needy children?
Other than callously and insincerely using them as a "debating tool" in your efforts to keep the practice of killing unborn babies going strong, what are YOU going to do about those children?

reply from: Virginia

Actually, I work with an organization aiding the opportunities they have while in foster care and search for people to adopt them.
Do you help them?
Myself and many others do use our efforts to keep the practice of freedom going strong.
*May I note, we've been fairly successful, and even if Roe vs. Wade is overturned will continue to be successful, considering abortion will not be outlawed with the overturning, if it were by chance to happen.

reply from: Virginia

I speak to foster kids everyday and watch them suffer and go through battle after battle with legalities, drug use, and self-destruction.
Yes, I want to deny foster kids the right to live and kill all of them right now! Even the ones over 18 and no longer in the system.
That is absurd and is a shallow attempt at skirting around the real issue.
How help is given to these children?
How do you propose to help them?

reply from: Shiprahagain

Then why do you say we should be pro-abortion and then bring up foster kids. What's your point?

reply from: yoda

Good for you! Glad to hear that! Of course, I'd rather have heard it as a positive message, urging others to join you, than to have you drag it out as a club to attack your opponents with!
Now, on what basis do you demand to know about my personal charitable activities and donations? What is your "right to know"?

reply from: Virginia

Because there are already such a large and uncontrollable number of foster children not getting what they need...and if you make abortion "illegal" you add another 300,000-400,000 to that number and get almost a million foster kids instead of 500,000...

reply from: Virginia

Because there are already such a large and uncontrollable number of foster children not getting what they need...and if you make abortion "illegal" you add another 300,000-400,000 to that number and get almost a million foster kids instead of 500,000...

reply from: laurissamarcotte

Virginia is right- we should brutally kill children instead of letting them live life, know love, and gain knowledge.

reply from: holopaw

Words in combination with actions. The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s oratory skills were just as important as the marches in the struggle for civil rights.

reply from: laurissamarcotte

Interview anyone who's converted to Christianity, and they'll tell you their lives are so much better.
Muslims do this (it's in the Koran to kill anyone who won't convert to Islam), not us. Oh wait, you aren't going to admit that, because it might hurt their feelings...
If you're talking about the crusade like 700 years ago, how are Christians today supposed to change that? No, seriously, I want to know.
I seriously doubt millions of women will be desperate enough to go and shove a dirty coat hanger up their cervix, and if there are, they need serious help, not "clean" abortions.
Virginia, I've only read two of your Christian-bashing posts and I've already had enough. Please stop.

reply from: holopaw

What's more hateful than murdering a defenseless baby? Those who support abortion are advocates of baby killing. If my father abused me, do I have the right to abuse my own children? As humans you should know it's wrong to kill other humans because their existence inconveniences you.

reply from: Virginia

That is a nice reply and good job on attacking me, instead of the issue on hand.
My question was what do you propose as a solution for over a million children in foster care (in one year) and over 5 million in the next ten?
These children will, instead of "living life, knowing love, and gaining knowlege," battle self hatred, combat feelings of worthlessness, have no stable relationships, and be ware-housed for their childhood lives.

reply from: holopaw

Very few people deserve to die. Innocent babies never deserve to die.
We haven't legalized cocaine even though doing so means we could regulate it and make sure that pure, "safe" cocaine was available. Same argument goes for abortion. Just because people do something doesn't mean we are obligated to legalize it.

reply from: laurissamarcotte

There are millions of couples waiting to adopt.
Ooh! A fortune teller! Me next! Me next!

reply from: holopaw

Do men have children!? WOW!

reply from: holopaw

Over 4000 babies are aborted a day. Sort of puts 4000 a year in perspective. Btw, since abortions are legal, why are women doing it at homes? If you take that risk, there may be consequences. Two words that Pro-Abortionists don't seem to get Responsibility and Consequences. Esp. Responsibility.

reply from: Virginia

I have worked with children in foster care and actually spoken to them! Imagine that.
I also am aware of the increasing statistics indicating the high likelihood of children in foster care leaning towards drug abuse, suicide, prostitution, and self mutilation. (Federal Department of Health & Human Services.)
How do you know there are millions of couples waiting to adopt? And if so, why are children suffering stagnancy in foster care?

reply from: holopaw

You are the one skirting around the issue. The issue is abortion, the killing of unborn children. You are the one who has leaped to the topic of the foster care system. When you are working at the foster care clinic do you bring up the subject of abortion? Then why are you doing it here?

reply from: Shiprahagain

There are waiting lists for babies! It's the older kids its hard to find homes for, so why kill babies?

reply from: holopaw

I'm glad that the kids that admire you for helping them don't know you think they never should have been born.

reply from: holopaw

Why is it the babies we always want to kill off? Why not the adults? We're the ones who messed up the world. Oh yeah, because adults can defend themselves and its easier to kill defenseless unborn children.

reply from: Virginia

Babies become older children!! Does that occur to you!?

reply from: laurissamarcotte

Yes, but when babies are born, they are still babies, and most couples want newborns.

reply from: holopaw

Probably because of bureaucracy.

reply from: AshMarie88

There aren't as many kids in the adoption/foster system like there could be. You know why? Everyone is killing them before they are born.

reply from: Virginia

Sharp comeback!
If you've gotten that far, do you think you conceive of the fact that if there were that many kids in foster homes, the states would not be able to take care of them?
I think it's better to die of starvation than to have been an aborted fetus before the ability to feel pain.

reply from: AshMarie88

Why do you want them all dead?

reply from: Virginia

Sharp comeback!
If you've gotten that far, do you think you conceive of the fact that if there were that many kids in foster homes, the states would not be able to take care of them?
I think it's better to die of starvation, oh, actually most of them would be victims of suicide or drug overdoses before that came along, than to have been an aborted fetus before the ability to feel pain.
And pretend that I'm being 'psychic.'
Or look it up!
(Try your state's health and human service's website.)

reply from: AshMarie88

You don't have to repeat yourself.

reply from: Shiprahagain

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/abortion_and_child_abuse.asp

Since abortion increases child abuse, if it were illegal there wouldn't be so many kids in foster care in the first place. If you weren't helping women get abortions they wouldn't be reacting to the aftermath by abusing their kids. Most abused kids are wanted -- so abortion isn't preventing abuse becuase its the wanted, planned kids who get abused anyways -- disproportionatley if their mom had a previous abortion.

reply from: laurissamarcotte

Virginia, there wouldn't be as many kids in the foster system were in not for abortion. Wanna know why? Abortion gives people the "I don't have to take care of my kids if I don't want to" thought. And here you are fighting for the very thing that puts so many kids in foster care, which you claim to hate.

reply from: Virginia

The website that you listed is a anti-choice funded one. I prefer to get my facts from neutral references, such as The National Centers for Disease Control, The American Medical Association, State websites, and University websites.
If you look at any of these references, you will find that women would choose abortion and are unable to have one are more likely to abuse their children because of financial and emotional stress. They abuse their children, because they didn't feel capable of taking care of them in the first place, and since they couldn't get an abortion, ended up taking it out on their kids. So, in turn, your support of making aborition illegal is harming kids!
Check the resources.

reply from: Virginia

Abortion gives people the "I don't have to put a child through a miserable life if I don't want to" attitude. It gives women the choice to do what's best for them and their child.

reply from: Virginia

Abortion gives people the "I don't have to put a child through a miserable life if I don't want to" attitude. It gives women the choice to do what's best for them and their child.

reply from: Virginia

I wouldn't have to repeat myself, if you were able to listen to fact the first time you heard it.

reply from: laurissamarcotte

Wow! You're getting really good at this psychic thing!
We don't abandon women after we help them carry their children to term. Birthright gives moms free baby items.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Universitiy websites are unbiased? Uh huh. Have you attended a university, b/c with few exceptions they are REALLY liberal? My site had neutral sources like Ney, P. Fung, T., Wickett, A.R., "Relationship Between Induced Abortion and Child Abuse and Neglect: Four Studies," Pre- and Perinatal Psychology Journal 8(1):43-63 Fall 1993; Benedict, M., White, R., and Cornely, P., "Maternal Perinatal Risk Factors and Child Abuse" Child Abuse and Neglect 9:217-224 (1985); Lewis, E., "Two Hidden Predisposing Factors in Child Abuse," Child Abuse and Neglect 3:327-330 (1979); Ney, P., "Relationship Between Abortion and Child Abuse," Canadian J. Psychiatry 24:610-620(1979).
McFadden, A., "The Link Between Abortion and Child Abuse," Family Resources Center News (January 1998) 20.
Judith Lewis Herman, M.D., Trauma and Recovery (NY: Basic Books, 1992) 1-2.
You just don't like that they reached a prolife conclusion.

reply from: Virginia

I wouldn't have to repeat myself, if you were able to listen to fact the first time you heard it.

reply from: Virginia

I wouldn't have to repeat myself, if you were able to listen to fact the first time you heard it.

reply from: Virginia

The website that you listed is a anti-choice funded one. I prefer to get my facts from neutral references, such as The National Centers for Disease Control, The American Medical Association, State websites, and University websites.
If you look at any of these references, you will find that women would choose abortion and are unable to have one are more likely to abuse their children because of financial and emotional stress. They abuse their children, because they didn't feel capable of taking care of them in the first place, and since they couldn't get an abortion, ended up taking it out on their kids. So, in turn, your support of making aborition illegal is harming kids!
Check the resources.

reply from: Virginia

Abortion gives people the "I don't have to put a child through a miserable life if I don't want to" attitude. It gives women the choice to do what's best for them and their child.

reply from: Virginia

I wouldn't have to repeat myself, if you were able to listen to fact the first time you heard it.

reply from: Virginia

The website that you listed is a anti-choice funded one. I prefer to get my facts from neutral references, such as The National Centers for Disease Control, The American Medical Association, State websites, and University websites.
If you look at any of these references, you will find that women would choose abortion and are unable to have one are more likely to abuse their children because of financial and emotional stress. They abuse their children, because they didn't feel capable of taking care of them in the first place, and since they couldn't get an abortion, ended up taking it out on their kids. So, in turn, your support of making aborition illegal is harming kids!
Check the resources.

reply from: Virginia

The website that you listed is a anti-choice funded one. I prefer to get my facts from neutral references, such as The National Centers for Disease Control, The American Medical Association, State websites, and University websites.
If you look at any of these references, you will find that women would choose abortion and are unable to have one are more likely to abuse their children because of financial and emotional stress. They abuse their children, because they didn't feel capable of taking care of them in the first place, and since they couldn't get an abortion, ended up taking it out on their kids. So, in turn, your support of making aborition illegal is harming kids!
Check the resources.

reply from: Virginia

The website that you listed is a anti-choice funded one. I prefer to get my facts from neutral references, such as The National Centers for Disease Control, The American Medical Association, State websites, and University websites.
If you look at any of these references, you will find that women would choose abortion and are unable to have one are more likely to abuse their children because of financial and emotional stress. They abuse their children, because they didn't feel capable of taking care of them in the first place, and since they couldn't get an abortion, ended up taking it out on their kids. So, in turn, your support of making aborition illegal is harming kids!
Check the resources.

reply from: Virginia

The website that you listed is a anti-choice funded one. I prefer to get my facts from neutral references, such as The National Centers for Disease Control, The American Medical Association, State websites, and University websites.
If you look at any of these references, you will find that women would choose abortion and are unable to have one are more likely to abuse their children because of financial and emotional stress. They abuse their children, because they didn't feel capable of taking care of them in the first place, and since they couldn't get an abortion, ended up taking it out on their kids. So, in turn, your support of making aborition illegal is harming kids!
Check the resources.

reply from: Virginia

The website that you listed is a anti-choice funded one. I prefer to get my facts from neutral references, such as The National Centers for Disease Control, The American Medical Association, State websites, and University websites.
If you look at any of these references, you will find that women would choose abortion and are unable to have one are more likely to abuse their children because of financial and emotional stress. They abuse their children, because they didn't feel capable of taking care of them in the first place, and since they couldn't get an abortion, ended up taking it out on their kids. So, in turn, your support of making aborition illegal is harming kids!
Check the resources.

reply from: laurissamarcotte

LOL!!
Shoving foriegn metal objects up yourself is best for you, and ripping you child to pieces is best for him/her? This is the most twisted statement I've ever heard.
I have a question, Virginia. Would you commit suicide by jamming scissors into your head if you were is foster care?

reply from: laurissamarcotte

Please stop spamming. You're being childish and moronic- oh wait, you're being pro-choice.

reply from: Shiprahagain

I want quotes from these cites showing that most abused children are the result of women not obtaining abortions, b/c so far you've backed up nothing you've said.

reply from: AshMarie88

I don't have time for ignorant spammers.

reply from: Shiprahagain

You're right, Concerned. The issue is extremely complex. For example, it costs thousands of dollars to adopt white babies which is out of many ppl's budgets. If there were less abortions there would be more babies, hence, supply and demand would cause the price to come down and more ppl could adopt.
Also, many non-black and Native couples want black, native, and mixed babies but there are coalitions of social workers and laws who prevent this. If we want to increase adoption, we have to stop people from preventing adoptions on the grounds of illusionary social constructs like race. (I can see culture, but not race).

reply from: Virginia

Judith Lewis Miller does not list abortion as a cause of post traumatic stress disorder in that book, unlike rape and incest, which are cited but you conviently skip over.
The "pro" Family Resources Center News. Don't try to get me to miss publication and have no way of defending myself because you miss represented them. And they're not even an academic or professional journal, much less a group even pretending to base their findings on empirical observation or accepted academic methods.
I can't even find any of those journals on academic databases such as Jstor. And the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry website only goes back to 1996. So your choice of sources is rather funny in that their availability on academic resources is non-existent, thus preventing the possibility of independent verification of their existence. You probably just copied down those cites from the "abortion facts" website without actually reading any of articles or attempting to locate. Next time, maybe try not digging yourself a hole of stupidity and willful ignorance when try to prop up psuedo-academia as part of your argument.
Colleges really liberal. Good job. all together: 2+2=5. Thats what you get at bob jones U, right.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Yeah. That's right. As a black woman I enrolled at Bob Jones. As for the 2+2 thing, I doubt you've ever studied Cartesian math. Those are credible sources -- you just don't like them. If you think some of those sources are too new to be credible, demonstrate a source that says why their age makes them less credible.

reply from: laurissamarcotte

He doesn't have any links, cp, he just pretends he does so we'll believe him.

reply from: Virginia

I have, and believe it or not, there is a translation sitting five feet in front of me. What you are citing is an Americanized and severely Westernized translation! Oh, sheltered, sheltered....

reply from: Virginia

What do you have to say about the "Pro" Family Resources Center News? Can you claim they are credible? You haven't said a thing about my thoughts on your sources, just that you think they are "credible." How so? How is a "Pro" Family Resources Center credible? They are bias and not even academically viable. So, please, don't waste my time with copying a large amount of useless data and suggesting I "look it up."
Oh, wow! Cartesian math! Did you copy that term from a website too?!

reply from: Virginia

I cannot believe the original post of this discussion! There are 6 billion humans, in 172 politically different nations, thousands of ethic groups and languages, cities so overpopulated that people living in them may never see a patch of grass or a tree for years and you are concerned about "the future!?!?!?!" That is such an ignorant and obviously uneducated statement. Population has continued to grow since the legalization of abortion and the advance of industrialized society.
Why is it that you feel abortion is such a pressing issue when millions die of preventable diseases, famine, and war, while the numbers of child prostitutes under the age of eight years old than there are fetuses aborted??
(www.catwinternational.org/factbook)
If you think the 'supposed' images of aborted fetuses are gruesome, I urge you to view pictures of children dead of starvation or with burns from chemical warfare and irresponsible safety measures?
You are so amazingly self-righteous and blatantly unaware of far more serious and tragic incidences occuring daily.
All of you should bow your heads in shame.

reply from: Shiprahagain

If you think they're not uncredible you must give a cited source that says why not. No, I'm familiar with Cartesian math, don't mock me b/c you're ignorant.

reply from: Virginia

There is no way to cite "Pro" Family Resources Center News is uncredible because is it not an academically available journal.
I'm not claiming they are uncredible because I don't agree with what they're saying, or on grounds concerning research that is not profiecient.
Normally, in academic circles is considered laugh-able to cite such an unknown, unspoken of, and unavailable resource. This resource is not of any academic or scholarly standing, it's a newsletter for Christian soccer moms.
If you have a post 2000 article from The Canadian Journal or an American journal if possible that be great, simply for reasons of availability of the verifying of conclusions from this supposed report.
It's unacceptable and embarrassing to try and uphold a reasonably intelligent discussion with a source of such unrespectable, unreputable magnitude.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Virginia I know WHO docs whose work isn't on JSTOR. JSTOR is not the be all end all of academia.

reply from: Virginia

I do have a problem with your quote.
I have family members who read Arabic and I'm very familiar with the MH Shakir translation.
www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/shaki
Reference states that Shakir did read Arabic. Hm...
Very credible, indeed!

reply from: Virginia

I do have a problem with your quote.
I have family members who read Arabic and I'm very familiar with the MH Shakir translation.
www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/shaki
Reference states that Shakir did read Arabic. Hm...
Very credible, indeed!

reply from: laurissamarcotte

Please stop spamming.

reply from: Virginia

Once again, are you defending the source?
www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/shaki
sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/nytimes.htm - interview with Dalai Lama
newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/10/232718.shtml - Chavez and Pope talk.
harvardsquarelibrary.org/speakout - hitler and Abortion
www.catwinternational.org/factbook
www.forerunner.com/fyi/law/roe-v-aw/1comp070999.htm
No, you're not. You're trying to claim I don't cite references because your argument has no valid ground! Knowing that you have to do that without actually defending your own sources or talking about the issue revalidates the fact that I, the abortion clinics built in '06 already, and the hundreds of thousands of others fighting for a woman's right to choose are victorious.

reply from: Virginia

Good, good. Anything respectable to say concerning the issue?

reply from: Virginia

Once again, are you defending the source?
www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/shaki
sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/nytimes.htm - interview with Dalai Lama
newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/10/232718.shtml - Chavez and Pope talk.
harvardsquarelibrary.org/speakout - hitler and Abortion
www.catwinternational.org/factbook
www.forerunner.com/fyi/law/roe-v-aw/1comp070999.htm
No, you're not. You're trying to claim I don't cite references because your argument has no valid ground! Knowing that you have to do that without actually defending your own sources or talking about the issue revalidates the fact that I, the abortion clinics built in '06 already, and the hundreds of thousands of others fighting for a woman's right to choose are victorious.

reply from: Virginia

Shakir DID NOT read Arabic.
www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/shakir
That was a fatal typo.

reply from: Virginia

http://www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/shakir.htm

reply from: Virginia

http://www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/shakir.htm

His own relatives admit he did not read Arabic.

reply from: Virginia

http://www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/shakir.htm

His own relatives admit he did not read Arabic.

reply from: Virginia

http://www.ahmadiyya.org/movement/shakir.htm

His own relatives admit he did not read Arabic.

reply from: AshMarie88

There should be a law against spamming...

reply from: Virginia

Wow! You read it so quickly. I'm impressed.
"The actual Shakir could not read Arabic, claims his younger brother, and therefore, it is fairly difficult to believe this translation is his work."
So someone who can't read Arabic translated the Koran...respectable citation. Holds up so well.
Concering MLK:
Martin Luther King, Jr. (Routledge Historical Biographies) by Peter J. Ling (Sep 2002)
"A woman's body is something which she may do with concerning her personal discretion." -'a rarely-known quote of the supposed pro-life Dr. King' -(Peter J Ling)
Concerning the Dalai Lama:
In the interview on the site I referenced he states he by and large doesn't support abortion except in times when it is the best interest of the woman's health and if the child may be retarded.
Concerning the Coalition Against Trafficking of Women:
The citation was provided due to the reference of the fact that there are more child prostitutes under the age of 8 yrs. than there are abortions performed in the US.
The third and fourth sites:
The third, concerning talks with Chavez and the Pope about Chavez wanting to loosen abortion laws.
The fourth: Documentation of Hitler considering abortion deserving of punishment by death of the woman.
www.forerunner.com/fyi/law/roe-v-aw/1comp070999.htm :
If you read it, it states that the FACE act does not allow forced abortions, in fact it disallows them.
You are such an idiot that there is blatant prove DISPROVING you on the site that you provided!
Thank you for reminding me why men should not be involved with this.
Oh, also, Roe vs. Wade allows women to choose abortion, it doesn't force them into it! You, on the other hand, are all about forcing women into things they don't want and are not in the best interest of the child.

reply from: Virginia

Wow! You read it so quickly. I'm impressed.
"The actual Shakir could not read Arabic, claims his younger brother, and therefore, it is fairly difficult to believe this translation is his work."
So someone who can't read Arabic translated the Koran...respectable citation. Holds up so well.
Concering MLK:
Martin Luther King, Jr. (Routledge Historical Biographies) by Peter J. Ling (Sep 2002)
"A woman's body is something which she may do with concerning her personal discretion." -'a rarely-known quote of the supposed pro-life Dr. King' -(Peter J Ling)
Concerning the Dalai Lama:
In the interview on the site I referenced he states he by and large doesn't support abortion except in times when it is the best interest of the woman's health and if the child may be retarded.
Concerning the Coalition Against Trafficking of Women:
The citation was provided due to the reference of the fact that there are more child prostitutes under the age of 8 yrs. than there are abortions performed in the US.
The third and fourth sites:
The third, concerning talks with Chavez and the Pope about Chavez wanting to loosen abortion laws.
The fourth: Documentation of Hitler considering abortion deserving of punishment by death of the woman.
www.forerunner.com/fyi/law/roe-v-aw/1comp070999.htm :
If you read it, it states that the FACE act does not allow forced abortions, in fact it disallows them.
You are such an idiot that there is blatant prove DISPROVING you on the site that you provided!
Thank you for reminding me why men should not be involved with this.
Oh, also, Roe vs. Wade allows women to choose abortion, it doesn't force them into it! You, on the other hand, are all about forcing women into things they don't want and are not in the best interest of the child.

reply from: Tam

I'm so glad to see you write those words--it shows that you and I are more on the same page than I might have thought.
Ok, let me try to explain briefly why people do that (scream "baby killer!") at someone. I don't do that myself, but I do think I have an understanding of why someone would. I will have to use an analogy, though, so bear with me.
First, I have to quote a post I made awhile back, on the subject of the photos of aborted children. I know showing a photo is not the same as yelling "babykiller!"--but I want to use the same analogy, and I don't have time to write it all out again. So, again, bear with me.
Now, imagine there are these child sex clinics and people actually tolerate the fact that children are being raped there. You cannot tolerate such a thing, so you go protest at the child sex clinic, and sometimes you cannot help yourself from yelling, "Rapist!! Child molester!!" at someone taking a child inside.
Maybe it won't help. Maybe it just makes things worse. But you are so appalled by the fact that people are raping children that sometimes you cannot control such an outburst of indignation at the injustice around you.

reply from: Tam

Just wondering, why not?

reply from: Tam

Of course, no woman deserves to die in an abortion. What you may not realize is that legal abortion is not as dissimilar to illegal abortion as you may think, in this respect. Abortion kills women--legal OR illegal. The problem here is abortion, not whether or not it's legal. Women die in abortions--legal, illegal, and self-performed. If you care about women, and I believe you do, let's try to offer them better choices that won't take their lives or the lives of their children from them.

reply from: Tam

You are right that this is a serious problem. What I hope you will at least consider is the idea that abortion, rather than being an answer to this serious problem, is a serious problem in and of itself. Committing violence against the unborn children does not help the plight of born children any more than killing the elderly in nursing homes would. Should we kill off all the elderly in order to divert resources for their care to children?
What is wrong with this picture!?! Women need to stand up and insist that our role as mothers be honored. This is not to say that all women must choose to be mothers--but just that those of us who do choose to fulfill our natural role as the bringers of life are not placed in situations where we are forced by circumstances or coerced by family, friends, or our lovers to kill our own children.
Children need to be cared for and protected--not just the unborn ones, not just the born ones--all children. As women, it is our job to make sure this happens. I say this not to be sexist, but because I am a feminist. I think women have a very important and critical role in the world, and it is not identical to men's. We do not have to become men in order to be equal TO men. We already ARE equal to men! That is the big secret--we have been equal all along. We are not trying to GET to equality--we are trying to get society to RECOGNIZE our equality.
Just as the abolitionists were not trying to make slavery wrong--they were trying to get society to recognize that slavery is wrong.
We are not trying to make abortion wrong, but to wake people up about how wrong it is. And shoving kids off into foster homes where they languish is wrong, too. This problem is not the fault of any one of us, but it is the responsibility of every one of us. We need to demand better for children. They are not our property, they are not our inferiors, they are not our least important--they are our future and our responsibility.
Both abortion and every other form of child abuse are wholly unacceptable in a society that recognizes the worth of women and children. We are not men!!! We should be PROUD to be women! We should not WANT to be men! Women rock! I am honored to be a woman and I look forward to being a mother.
I have always been a feminist, but my ideals have changed. Rather than wanting to be part of the system men have created AS THEY'VE SET IT UP, I demand that it be changed to accommodate women AS WE ARE, not as we would have to change ourselves to fit into that system. We do not have to change to be more like men--society needs to change to be more appreciative and supportive of women!!!!!

reply from: AshMarie88

Just wondering, why not?
I wouldn't be able to handle it. It would be like standing outside a serial killer's residence.

reply from: Tam

I hear that. It is worse, even--it's like standing outside a serial killer's residence WHILE he's killing people inside, knowing you can't call the police because their job is to protect him from you, not his victims from him.
But--your presence might save a life. If you don't go to the clinic, maybe you can be a prayer partner for someone who does, praying for him/her at home while s/he is at the clinic. If you don't know anyone else, feel free to pray for me on Saturday mornings anytime you like!

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

I just heard Spain wanted to give full human rights to monkeys, apes and chimps because their DNA (body blueprint building instructions) are 97% similiar to humans. (I have no idea what this could even mean.) Meanwhile, abortion is legal in Spain. Here in the US it is a federal crime to destroy an eagle's egg but it's a person's right to destroy unborn human young. Am I getting this all wrong? Did I hear what I thought I did on the radio or am I mistaken? Is mankind lost and confused? Or did I misunderstand and misquote?

reply from: Tam

Wow, that's really interesting.
... Ok, I just looked into it a bit, and apparently what happened is that the Spanish Parliament recognized the rights to *life* and *freedom* for great apes. If only all nations would recognize those rights for all animals--including humans!
Yes, it is ironic that abortion is legal in a place where people are obviously intelligent and kind enough to recognize that killing and imprisoning apes is wrong. It's a shame--but I hope that this new respect for the life and freedom of the great apes will spill over into a new respect for the life of unborn children as well.
Yay for Spain for a step in the right direction!!

reply from: Tam

P.S. actually, I'm not sure whether it passed or not, just that it was presented to the parliament.

reply from: nsanford

I'm confused, I thought this debate was on overpopulation?
Virginia, minds have been changed with words, as well as with actions. To suggest one is the sole factor is absurd.

reply from: yoda

Well put, Tam. It's actually quite painful to be present there every Saturday morning, watching couples go in the front door with the intention of killing their baby. But it would be more painful to not go, and know I might have made a difference had I gone.

reply from: 1003

yoda, can i come some time?

reply from: yoda

Go on down to the nearest Planned Parenthood death camp and become a one-person cheering section for the butchers inside. Put on surgical clothes, and use a meat cleaver to chop up little tiny toy babies, and scream delight with each swing. We really don't want any slime around us.


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