If there was a child whom NO ONE in the whole entire world wants...

No she cannot, the state needs to make both her and the father take care of their child. Both had sex and they both have an EQUAL obligation to that child.

You won't get the probabykilling advocates to touch this one with a ten foot pole, laurissa. It weakens their "argument" too much, just like the question I asked about the woman in the desert. Oh wait, ns did say it was okay to leave the baby out in the desert to die, so maybe he'll say it's okay to kill the "unadoptable" baby too.

This is one of the most bizarre hypothetical questions I have ever heard. Sometimes you guys give pro-aborts way too much credit for epathy.

Oh, wow, he did? He actually said it was ok to leave the baby to die if she didn't want to care for him/her?

Oh, wow, he did? He actually said it was ok to leave the baby to die if she didn't want to care for him/her?
Here ya go, top of page 3, "Abortion=abandonment", nsanford: "Plus, as harsh as it sounds, no one is obligated to help a newborn in the desert. While it is the right thing to do, it is not something that should be seen as a given. People are cruel by nature."

It just amazes me that nsanford would say that. I mean, I once heard a true story about a pregnant woman in China who found an abandoned baby so she brought it home and she and her husband were going to raise it. But the one family one child police found out and made her abort the baby she was pregnant with even though she was 9 months gone. No nsanford, people are not cruel by nature. There are some people like that woman and her husband who will risk everything to help another, and there are people who mock that sacrifice with their indifference.

Hey, hey, don't twist my words! I said no one is obligated to save a baby in the desert. I didn't say the mother should.
Yes, they are. Let me put it this way. If you only have enough water for yourself or the baby, how many people do you think would give the water to the baby. In reality, people only care about themselves, and nobody else.
I stand by my comment.

So I guess that Chinese couple were just freaks.

People are kind when they are safe. When their life is in mortal danger, all of that goes out the window. People are cruel by nature. We just control it most of the time.

People are kind when they are safe. When their life is in mortal danger, all of that goes out the window. People are cruel by nature. We just control it most of the time.
Do you have no since of reality or are you just illiterate? That woman wasn't safe! They strapped her down and forcibly aborted her baby! Were the people who ran the Underground Railroad safe? Were the people who fought in the Union Army safe? Any prolifer on this forum would give the water to a baby and die. The fact that you wouldn't speaks to your depravity, not humanity's at large. I can see why you're prochoice.

People are kind when they are safe. When their life is in mortal danger, all of that goes out the window. People are cruel by nature. We just control it most of the time.
Just when I was ready to consider Nsanford a member of the human race, he says that. Nsanford you are deluded. We all know that humans routinely sacrifice their lives for others. Soldiers, Good Samaritans, Fireman, Fire Fighters, and Police Officers do it all the time.
I would give the child the water. You know why, Baby Killing Advocate, Nsanford? I am a man, men sacrifice for women and children. Our lives if need be. You disgust me and you are a poor excuse for a human being.

First off, I never said I wouldn't give any water to the baby. You just assumed that. Which goes to show how close-minded you are. Next time you insult me, make sure you have your facts straight, genius.
She was safe when she took the child in. Do you think she would have taken the baby in if she knew that she would be caught, and that she would lose her baby?
No one ever thinks "they" are going to be the ones caught and punished. Besides, this number represents a very low number of people, considering humanity. Do you think most of humanity would have done those things? My argument stands.
Okay, so what? Last time I checked, you guys aren't humanity.
And I can see why you are pro-life. Pro-lifers allow unfounded accusations, and you don't even have to back them up!

Good. If I am disgusting to you, I must be a very, very good person.

Yeah, because putting your own needs before others makes you good.

I don't get it. I never said this. Still trying to twist my words, pro-lifer?

Yes, they are. Let me put it this way. If you only have enough water for yourself or the baby, how many people do you think would give the water to the baby. In reality, people only care about themselves, and nobody else.
I feel really sad for you if that's they only kind of person you've ever known, and if you feel that way yourself. That's really sad.
Parents and even stranger routinely sacrifice themselves for others, it happens all the time. Sure there are people who are just the opposite, who like you say "only care about themselves". But to think that ALL people are like that must make you MISERABLE!
And for you to say that "no one has an obligation to help anyone else" makes me think that you have given up completely on the human race. No wonder you support abortion!

Oh, really? I'm not a member of the human race, but a fetus is? Funny.
BTW, I consider it an honor to be called deluded by you. It actually means I'm pretty darn smart.
None of these people are sure they are going to die. If they were, nearly all of them wouldn't do so.

No one ever knows for sure when they are going to die, that's not the point.
The point is that these people do these heroic things knowing that they MIGHT get killed doing it, and still they do them.
There really are good, self-sacrificing people in this world, ns. even if you've never known one of them. I feel sorry for you that you haven't, those are the best people to get to know.

They are a very small part of the population. And yoda, explain to me how you know I don't know any?
Besides, people are self-sacrificing for other reasons besides kindness. Every person thinks of themselves first, and then others. Regardless of who they are. It's just human nature.

If you do know some self-sacrificing people, why would you say what you did? Why would you make a blanket statement condemning the whole human race as selfish and unwilling to sacrifice for others?
Some of us can "rise above" human nature when the need arises, ns. Some of us can even act on behalf of complete strangers, and sacrifice our time, money, and maybe even our lives to protect people we'll never meet. There really is some good in most people, ns, if you look for it. I'd say you always say the glass is "half empty".

The other half full of baby blood.

Yep. I don't know how I could live, knowing that I had a part in the baby holocaust.

Thats because stupid proabort punks like this are not really alive. Their brains and conscience have died a long time ago. Only one thing to be done to a rabid dog, and a slime licken proabort.

what about the firefighters that ran into the burning towers on 9/11 to help people. very heroic

How about the missionaries in tiawon who take care of the little girls dieing of aids after the sex industry is thru with them?

The world has many heroes and heroines, and many more that would be if the opportunity arose. To claim that everyone will act in their own self-interest in an emergency is a cop-out way of excusing one's own selfishness, IMO. Yes, many humans are capable of altruistic, kind, even heroic actions. So those who wallow in selfishness and self-hatred have no excuse in "human nature".

How about the missionaries in tiawon who take care of the little girls dieing of aids after the sex industry is thru with them?
Off topic, Be careful about blanket support of missionaries though. Some of them are the ones sending little girls to the sex industry under the guise of converting them http://akha.org/

Nsanford, it is an insult to say that every human being thinks for themself first. Almost all Christians put #1 God, #2 others, and #3 themselves. And considering about 84% of Americans are Christian...

84% doesn't mean jack to me. There are many Pro-Choice Christians and a larger percentage are "on the fence". The Methodists and Presbyterians hierarchy condone abortions and don't get me started on the Episcopalians. Christians also condoned slavery. I feel more of a brotherhood with Pro-Life atheists than Pro-Choice Christians.

Oh, really? I'm not a member of the human race, but a fetus is? Funny.
BTW, I consider it an honor to be called deluded by you. It actually means I'm pretty darn smart.
None of these people are sure they are going to die. If they were, nearly all of them wouldn't do so.
When a soldier hops on a granade to save his buddies, he knows he is going to die. During 9/11, when able-bodied people stayed behing with injured people, they knew they were going to die.

I can either say something politically incorrect, or I can just say I disagree.
I'll settle for the latter.
I know people who are self-sacrificing, but they don't do it for the right reason. People who are self-sacrificing are usually respected by everyone else, and are even seen as heros. That's the motivation of most self-sacrificing people. And even if they will gain nothing, people feel good knowing that they sacrificed something. People are interested in themselves, and not anybody else.
People care more about themselves than they do about anything or anybody else. It's a fact, not a opinion.

I can either say something politically incorrect, or I can just say I disagree.
I'll settle for the latter.
I know people who are self-sacrificing, but they don't do it for the right reason. People who are self-sacrificing are usually respected by everyone else, and are even seen as heros. That's the motivation of most self-sacrificing people. And even if they will gain nothing, people feel good knowing that they sacrificed something. People are interested in themselves, and not anybody else.
People care more about themselves than they do about anything or anybody else. It's a fact, not a opinion.
Brilliant words of wisdom from the Baby Killing Advocate.
I was wrong, Nsanford is a human being. Embarassing as that is for the rest of us.

Oh, really? I'm not a member of the human race, but a fetus is? Funny.
BTW, I consider it an honor to be called deluded by you. It actually means I'm pretty darn smart.
None of these people are sure they are going to die. If they were, nearly all of them wouldn't do so.
When a soldier hops on a granade to save his buddies, he knows he is going to die. During 9/11, when able-bodied people stayed behing with injured people, they knew they were going to die.
Even before they die, they experience self-important feelings. Saving someone else's life would give a large amount of pride to someone, even if they would die seconds later. I'm not saying this is something that is consciously thought about. It's more of a subconscious thing. People want to feel important, even when they are risking their lives.

Who is the "rest of us"? Think your opinions reflect humanity, huh? Someone's a little arrogant...

84% doesn't mean jack to me. There are many Pro-Choice Christians and a larger percentage are "on the fence". The Methodists and Presbyterians hierarchy condone abortions and don't get me started on the Episcopalians. Christians also condoned slavery. I feel more of a brotherhood with Pro-Life atheists than Pro-Choice Christians.
Episcopalians don't make good chess players because the turn their queens into bishops.

Who is the "rest of us"? Think your opinions reflect humanity, huh? Someone's a little arrogant...
If I had to choose between being arrogant and believing it was ok to dismember, burn, or crush the skull and suck the brains out of a fetus/embryo/human baby, I could handle being called arrogant.

Who is the "rest of us"? Think your opinions reflect humanity, huh? Someone's a little arrogant...
If I had to choose between being arrogant and believing it was ok to dismember, burn, or crush the skull and suck the brains out of a fetus/embryo/human baby, I could handle being called arrogant.
count me in

nsanford, what's going on? Before, you at least seemed to dislike abortion even if you didn't agree with it, but now you seem extremely peturbed and callous and it happened all of a sudden. What happened?

exposed for what he is. a murderer at heart. proabort scum don't like their self image veil lifted. They think they are "good" people. when they are forced to see themselves for what they are, they get fussy.

Me too, it's better to act like Christ than proclaim His name.

Once again, I don't believe abortion is "okay". I just think it's something that should be legal.

I just don't understand why something that's not okay should be legal.

There is no understanding that which is beyond reason.

Stop generalizing. I care about God and others before me, and not because I would be called a hero. I am very insulted by you generalizing the whole population into one self-centered group.
And I suppose Saint Joan of Arc just did what she did because she would be considered a hero later on, right?

Once again, I don't believe abortion is "okay". I just think it's something that should be legal.
Why?

Joan of Arc is a glorified heretic who probably wasn't even burned like she ought to have been.

Why ought she have been? I mean, I'll admit that France was at fault, but still, does she deserve death that way?

If good people ought to be burned, I can't imagine what you think we should do to bad people.

She was a heretic. Heretics are burned. You think she's good? Why?

How was she a heretic?

The Church said so. As i recalled, she claimed to have spoken with God. Since only male clergy could preform this feat, she was obviously lying. Furthermore, she was lying about God. That is heresy. Burn 'er!

The Church is not alway 100% right. Remember they thought Galileo was a heretic, too.

she was a subversive, and the only reasons she attained sainthood are that france won, and the english became protestant.

not that she was burned like she should have been anyway. most currently accepted records show that she was minor royalty, likely held for ransom.

Actually, all Catholics can speak with God through prayer. The preists were the only ones who could interpret his word within church. I can tell you aren't a Catholic.

whatever. point is, she was convicted of heresy....

Can she kill the child? Yes.
Should she kill the child? That depends on your views/beliefs.
Ms. Marcotte,
I would have to say that, because of my beliefs, that killing the child would be wrong. I would not allow it if it were up to me, but it is not. Since everybody has these so-called Equal Rights, the mother of the child should have the right to decide what is to become of it. And God will watch over these children, too. Whether the child lives or dies, it's all a part of His plan of what is to be. And, to be honest, I think the children who are killed are better off anyway than we here on earth are. What better glory than to remain innocent and get to see the kingdom of God before you have a chance to sin too much? Those children are no doubt more happy and satisfied up in Heaven than they would have been here on our decreasingly popular planet.
I do not mean to sound irrational there, but that's the way I feel. I myself have questioned my purpose on earth here, and why I have remained on this tempting planet when I could be sitting in my place at the palace of God. Even though I have not found a definite answer yet, I think I know why I am here. The way I live my life is simple. I do what I must in order to survive. I help those in need whenever they ask it of me. I do not hate people. I do not lie/cheat/steal. I live an honest life. And I am getting through it fine.
But as mentioned above, my living or dying (and anyone else's) is part of God's plan. If I were to die tomorrow, or next week, or even tonight while in the midst of this post, I would have no regrets. And I would not be sad for myself to be leaving this world. I would grieve for others who may have trouble getting along without me. But if it is Gods will, then I will follow.
So if you will, please try to understand where I'm coming from here. I do not think killing is right, but 1) The Bible is not clear-cut on killing and 2) We all live and die according to Gods will. Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened

IGWTAOP,
Sounds like your philosophy on life makes you very happy, that is all well and good. You seem like a nice guy, but the world doesn't need more nice men. We need good men.
Acocrding to you we shouldn't try to fight injustice because that is God's will. In your world, Blacks would be slaves and kids would be dying of polio, because instead of fighting for freedom and curing disease, we'd accept it as God's will.
If you want to save baby's from living a sinful life, we could have their mothers smother their infant bodies in the crib. God is a God of life, not death. Satan is an embracer of death.
If I rob a bank, that's my will, not God's.
Considering God gave us 10 Commandments and 1 of them is Thou Shalt Not Kill, I think the bible's stance on abortion is clear.

So this child's unwantedness denies it Constitutional rights?
GOD is the author of life. Not man. We have no right to take away GOD'S innocent children's lives.

So this child's unwantedness denies it Constitutional rights?
GOD is the author of life. Not man. We have no right to take away GOD'S innocent children's lives.

Laurissa,
If God and God alone is the author of life, than what's the difference between killing an unborn baby and killing a man on America's top 10 wanted list? It seems that you pick and choose which rules to follow, and in what cases they are acceptable in. That's where we differ. I pick the rules I believe are right, and they apply to EVERYONE.
You seem to imply that no man has the right to infringe upon the life of an unborn child or to take it away, but any man has the right to kill a criminal (murderer/rapist/etc). Life is life. Simple.
I don't understand why you choose to use that implication on unborns and not adults.

Why bring "God" into your bloodthirsty arguments? Why not own them yourself? Go ahead, tell us that YOU think it's fine and dandy to kill anyone you please, any time you please......... we won't laugh....... I promise!

Holopaw,
As inhumane as it may seem, blacks were made slaves in the 1800's for a reason. And kids do die of polio-again, for a reason. I don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but don't you think that we should let God's plan work itself out? Too long have people meddled in His affairs, and too long have people been interfering where they should not. We will all see the consequences of this in the end.
God is a God of life-true. But then again, someone said earlier, "Vengance is the Lord's". He does and will punish those who deserve it. Satan is an embracer of death-again I agree. But Satan has no power over the Lord and His angels. All will come out perfect in the end-just as God has planned for many many millenia.
If you rob a bank, it is your will to an extent. Rather-it is your choice. But God gave you that choice, and it was HIS will that you rob that bank. He has reasons for everything, good or bad.
Again, the Thou Shalt Not Kill comes up. Please read in the Bible the other arguments for Capital Punishment/Killing before you use that one alone to strengthen your argument.

so should we abandon all laws since all happens for a reason?

Sorry dude. You be the one picking and choosing. The Lord does make the distinktion.
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
The scripture simply does not back your play.

Before you stereotype, try learning some facts. I'm anti-death penalty. Try again.
So back to my question... this child's unwantedness denies it Constitutional rights?

From Holopaw:
Soldiers, Good Samaritans, Fireman, Fire Fighters, and Police Officers surely do these things-as you have said. But the question is why. They do these things in order to make themselves appear to be what they are not. I don't know of too many people who have these jobs that don't take any kind of credit/money/payment for the actions they perform. This tells me that their reasoning for these actions is purely self-indulged.

Sorry dude. You be the one picking and choosing. The Lord does make the distinktion.
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
The scripture simply does not back your play.
.

From Yodavater:
Well well well. It seems that Yodavater is all high and mighty here, or at least that's how he appears to think of himself. I see he has quite a few postings on this forum-I wonder if that has anything to do with it?
Yoda, people do sacrifice themselves for others-yes. But why? And what do they do afterwards? They accept the popularity they gain (if they gain it), they take money/rewards/payments, they accept themselves as heroes.
When it comes down to it-it's all about the self.
You've been here for a long time now, and that makes it even more surprising to me to learn that you don't know as much as you let on.

From Yodavater:
Yoda, you misunderstand what ns is saying I think. He said that by human nature people are selfish. Yeah, we can "rise above" human nature on the surface perhaps. But again-deep down-we are doing what we do in order to bring attention to ourselves.

From Laurissa:
Find me where you got that information, Laurissa.
I'll correct you this time since you seem to have misunderstood the facts. Almost all Christians SHOULD put #1 God, #2 others etc.
That's part of the whole "striving to be closer to God" thing. Being able to put God as #1 in your life is a very hard thing to do, and I know people who struggle with this issue that are Christians.

The answere to this one is simple:
Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hbr 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Hbr 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

From Yodavater:
Why bring God into my bloodthirsty arguments? Because others have done so in order to profess their beliefs in Pro-life choices, so why should I not have such a right as a pro-choicer?
Why not own them myself? Because I am a Christian who follows the word of God, and through Him I have come to my position and the point where I stand now. Why would I profess these arguments as my own and give myself credit when it is not due to me?
I do not think it's fine and dandy to kill anyone I please, anytime I please. Stop twisting the words around in order to make yourself look more ethical and moral than the rest of us. I am new to this forum, and I can already see the ploys and schemes you use to support your position.
It makes me very sad when people like you cannot (or simply refuse to) see past their own arrogance in order to clear up cloudy skies. Because you look, you do not see.
Laugh at me? Go right ahead and laugh. It matters not whether you choose to laugh at me or commend me. I stand where I stand because it is what I believe in. You stand where you stand because it is what you believe in. Why laugh just because we have different opinions? Do you then also laugh at those who have different skin colors? Differently shaped eyes? Muslims? Jews? Buddhists? Pagans? People who prefer Hondas over the car of your preference?
People are different-that's all there is to it. If you are so blinded by your arrogance as to laugh at them because they are different, then I pray to God that you soon see the light.

From Faithman:
Very good, Faithman. I was actually hoping you (or someone) would come up with these arguments. I'm glad it was you-you know your books and that impresses me
But, do you think that "rulers" back during the time of Christ and rulers (government) now are the same thing? I'm afraid that the government that exists in today's time doesn't run too much on Biblical quotes and purposes. They don't do what's best for others and the ministry of God-but they do instead what's in their best interest.
What was appointed as a power or ruler during those times is substantially different than what exists as a ruler or power today.

Very good, Faithman. I was actually hoping you (or someone) would come up with these arguments. I'm glad it was you-you know your books and that impresses me
But, do you think that "rulers" back during the time of Christ and rulers (government) now are the same thing? I'm afraid that the government that exists in today's time doesn't run too much on Biblical quotes and purposes. They don't do what's best for others and the ministry of God-but they do instead what's in their best interest.
What was appointed as a power or ruler during those times is substantially different than what exists as a ruler or power today.
Truely beg to differ. it was talking about a Roman government that was totally anti-christ. Even though they did not acknowlage the truth of the Lord Jesus, they made the ancient world somewhat safe, and built the infrastructure,[roads and such] to carry the message of Christ to all the known world. We don't yeild to the secular government as far as gospel proclaimation, but we do yeild as for as their God ordained mission of being a terror to evil doers. This country was set up by Christians, for Christians. The first amendment was ordained for the free expression of the good news of the Lord Jesus Christ. It has only been twisted by secular humanist who's main mission is to destroy the Church, and all free expression of the Gospel. The governments job is to subdue the lawless and make it safe to live a peaceful life. Anyone who does evil should be in fear of that ministry ordained of God for government.

The world is fallen and undoubtedly Satan's domain. In your everything is God's Will, evil would go unchecked. We'd let children play on the highway and if they were hit by a truck, we'd write it of as God's Will. God also gave some of us common sense and an empathetic heart to assist us in loving thy neighbor.
My God wants me to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and defend innocent unborn children who cannot defend themselves. Apparently, that is not his will for you.
To my Anti-Abortion breathren "We Shall Overcome."

From Holopaw:
Isn't that what started this whole abortion issue anyway? It certainly isn't Undercoming...