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Photos of aborted children

Who shows them, and why?

by: Tam

I often am asked why such photos are necessary, and told that they are unnecessarily cruel and could traumatize those who'd had a child die. Here is my take on why these photos are important to display:
Imagine there are "child sex clinics" where people can legally bring children to have sexual relations with them. Imagine that the people running these clinics do their best to present their services in a positive light, and so they never refer to it as "child sexual abuse" but prefer "child love". Imagine there are actually people who do not get it that children are being raped in these places. Showing someone a picture of an adult raping a child would open their eyes. Yes, it would be horrifying to view--all the moreso for anyone who has ever been a victim of sexual abuse or known a victim of sexual abuse--but if people refused to listen to you when you explained that children were being raped, a photograph showing that child rape is exactly what is happening in those clinics would be a very powerful tool. If child rape were legal, and you were campaigning to get child rape criminalized, you might need to resort to showing someone that photo at times, if the person simply refused to acknowledge reality. If the person kept insisting that what happened in there was not actually rape, because it is legal, you might have to show them the truth.
And the same goes for child murder. It's despicable, and of course viewing a photo of it is really upsetting for anyone with any kind of conscience. But if you are talking to someone who repeatedly insists that abortion is not child murder, showing that person a picture of what is obviously a murdered child can be a real eye-opener. I do know someone who was adamantly, obnoxiously (Poppa) pro-abortion until he saw the pictures, after which he became immediately chagrined for ever having supported what he had failed to recognize as child murder, and became a pro-life advocate instead. If he'd only seen those pictures earlier in his life, the lives of two of his children might have been spared, which were lost to abortion.
I know the pictures are awful. That's the whole reason for showing them to people who don't get it that what is actually happening is the awful thing depicted in those photos. I know it's painful to look at them--not just for those who have lost children themselves, but for anyone who has ever cared for any child. But I stand by my statement that it's more important to stop the killing than to bury the truth to spare anyone the pain of seeing the truth. I would love to see the day when everyone understands what abortion truly is. On that day the pictures will become obsolete, and no one will use them anymore.
Believe me when I tell you, no one hates those pictures more than the people displaying them. Those are the people who are dedicating their lives to eradicating the disgusting practice of killing unborn children, and to them--to us--those pictures are the saddest and most horrendous things in the world. The fact that they exist is ... I have no words to express the horror I feel that these photos exist--but the fact remains that these photos depict a reality that it is vital people understand, and some of them do not or cannot understand it without that visual aid.
If you already understand how horrific abortion--or any form of child murder--is, I'm sorry that you have had to see these pictures, because you don't need to see them. If you still support abortion, then I suggest you take a closer look at those photos and think long and hard about whether they depict a reality you feel you can perpetuate with a clear conscience.

reply from: yoda

This is one of the best explanations of the validity of the use of aborted baby photos I've ever seen. Anyone with an open mind will see the truth and logic of your argument.

reply from: galen

well said Tam
mary

reply from: domsmom

I had an abortion years ago and the pictures never for one second made me angry. All they did was make me realize what I did. Shamefull, yes but I was never angry or upset about the photos. There are pictures of blown apart 2 years olds, whats the difference? That's what happens when a baby steps on a land mine and this is what happens when an abortion is performed. I can see how someone would be upset about making the decision to abort after seeing the pics, however. That is exactly what happened to me!

reply from: faithman

You continue to totally miss the point that I have made. I am not against the use of the aborted. Just the indiscriminate use of them around folk who would [and are] getting involved with the live pictures. If one sees the live shots first, then they do not get mad about the the showing of the aborted, but that they were aborted.Some folks have such an open mind that all their brains have fallen out. It is plain crazy to continue to make enemies where friends could be made.

reply from: Tam

Huh? Why are you taking that personally? I wasn't responding to you whatsoever, just making a general comment. If you have a specific objection to something I've said, what is it?
I have no problem with your method of using live shots first. Go nuts. I'm sure it works great. I also have no problem with the truth trucks, etc. It's all for the right reasons, and I have explained why I think it's important.
Some folks use rude little jabs to make a point, rather than respectful debate.
Then why are you going out of your way to be insulting to me by making your little comment about being brainless? If you weren't trying snidely to insult me, what was your intention?

reply from: yoda

Woah, Nellie! There's a little practical problem with that, in that not everyone can afford, or can transport a 4D ultrasound machine everywhere that they can go with photographs. Plus, you have made no case that irritating a few people negates the value of the babies that have been saved by the aborted baby photos.
Then tone down your rhetoric when you attack antibabykilling advocates who have been posting here very ably and very effectively for many months. We know who she is, who are you?

reply from: faithman

Woah, Nellie! There's a little practical problem with that, in that not everyone can afford, or can transport a 4D ultrasound machine everywhere that they can go with photographs. Plus, you have made no case that irritating a few people negates the value of the babies that have been saved by the aborted baby photos.
Then tone down your rhetoric when you attack antibabykilling advocates who have been posting here very ably and very effectively for many months. We know who she is, who are you?
Who am I?
The man who has....
driven truth trucks...
held malachi signs...
confronted churches on sunday morning with aborted pics...
Held aborted baby pics in front of President bush on a number of occasions...
But the most powerful material I have ever used, [www.iamaperson.info] Are the Live fiber optic photos that are on a cd by life issues intitute for $20 dollars. That is most assurredly affordable...
So it is perfectly fine for you to continue to unnessisarily insult folks eyes with the bloody pictures, but I have to tone down my rhetoric?
If folk insist upon doing stupid things, then the rhetoric will be turned up, not down.
The live shots will make it on the TV. The live shots will make it into school systems. The live shots will make it into fair booth displays, parades, and political conventions. I have produced over 100,000 of them, and distributed them in all the venues mentioned. Venues that would not allow the aborted. Don't talk to me about finacial concerns when you have plenty of resources to produce the bloody stuff, when it cost the same to produce the live pictures, that are 10 times more effective in stopping babies from dieing.

reply from: yoda

I'm afraid that as long as you remain anonymous here, we have nothing but your word for anything you say. And until we know you better, I'll reserve my opinion on that.
I have no idea what "live shots" you're talking about that are on a CD. I've never seen nor heard of anyone selling or giving them away. But I do know that you can't walk around with a cd player and a large screen, not to mention a power source, on a protest line. Nor is it practical to put such a thing on the side of a truck.
And yes, it's perfectly fine to display the aborted baby pics, because I've never seen nor heard a legitimate complaint about them. "Bloody pictures" you say? HOW did the babies in those photos get bloody? Do you want to hide the results of a "bloody abortion" and make it seem all neat and tidy? Do you want to give folks the impression that the babies just "go to sleep" during an abortion? If you don't like what babies look like after they've been aborted, then raise hell with the people who are butchering them up, not the good honest folks who are showing the truth!
If you've come here to make enemies, you're off to a good start.

reply from: faithman

Are you siggma under cover? do you think you can just take a bunch of stuff out of context and puke it back? the cd is on the site I have posted. It is a computer cd that can be used to make posters and cards at any good print shop at very reasonable prices. Just because you haven't heard of anyone doing it means it aint being done? Be more than glad to send them to anyone who sends me a snail mail address in a private message. Have also posted a web sit numerous times where images can be viewed and bought [www.iamaperson.info]. You are ignorant of these facts because you choose to be, not because the information isn't available.
I have raised hell with them. That is why our PP clinic got an award in 2003 for operating under duress.

reply from: yoda

Siggy will get a laugh out of that!
So it's posters you're talking about, not "live" sonograms? It's difficult to follow you sometimes. Anyway, you go right on using your sonogram posters, and more power to you. I hope you have great success. Meantime, I'd advise you to put a muzzle on your attacks on other people who are trying to fight abortion THEIR way. Whoever you are (and it isn't really important) you have no patent nor monopoly on anti-abortion tactics. We have no obligation to bow to your opinion on anything.
Oh, btw, I do recall the website you linked us to before, but I don't remember where it is now. The url you just gave (www.person.info ) is not a valid url.

reply from: Tam

Are you claiming that to display a photo of an aborted child is stupid
-- all of the time?
-- some of the time?
What is your basis for such a claim?

Do you have any proof of this? Believe me, if showing photos of 4D ultrasound is TEN TIMES MORE EFFECTIVE than the aborted baby photos, we'll all be displaying the ultrasound photos in very short order. Our goal is not to win some petty argument with you about which kinds of pictures are better. Our goal is to stop abortions. I don't care what I have to hold up on a sign to stop them, and I believe I've already made it clear that I think the ultrasound pix are a great idea. But do you have any proof that they're actually 10 times more effective than the aborted child shots?

reply from: faithman

Are you claiming that to display a photo of an aborted child is stupid
-- all of the time?
-- some of the time?
What is your basis for such a claim?

Do you have any proof of this? Believe me, if showing photos of 4D ultrasound is TEN TIMES MORE EFFECTIVE than the aborted baby photos, we'll all be displaying the ultrasound photos in very short order. Our goal is not to win some petty argument with you about which kinds of pictures are better. Our goal is to stop abortions. I don't care what I have to hold up on a sign to stop them, and I believe I've already made it clear that I think the ultrasound pix are a great idea. But do you have any proof that they're actually 10 times more effective than the aborted child shots?
I am totally for the display of the aborted to sold out pro-aborts. I am for the display of the aborted discretely, after the public display of the live pics. What is stupid, is the display of the aborted where you know they will cause trouble, when the live shots do not. We have used the aborted at the local clinic with some turn arounds and such. When we started using the live shots, we were getting 2-3 women walking out of the clinic and telling the sign flyers that the sign of the little live baby changed their mind. When I used them at the Texas Repulican convention in Dallas, we had idiots from OSA waving bibles, condeming folks, and rubbing blood up everones snout. I took the live pics into the convention hall, distributed over 3000, with thank yous from many, and them telling me that they were totally put off with the tactics out side. They were thankful that they could be pro-life with out being numbered with fanatical morons with hidden agendas. the web site with the I am a person tract is www.iamaperson.info. I was a totally sold out blood man, until I got the live pics at www.lifeissues.org, on a computer cd with 19 fiber optic photos that are even clearer than the 4d ultra sound.If you are serious about stopping abortion, then you will try these photos, and you will discover, as I have, that they are very much more effective in changing hearts on this issue. Don't throw away malachi, just be smarter on how and when you use him. On the other hand, you can just keep doing stupid things and the babies will continue to die.

reply from: Shiprahagain

Faithman, no one is attacking the way you fight for the movement. We just don't like you calling showing grisly pictures "stupid." If you disagree, fine, the board is for debate, yet please don't scorn people. If we have offended you, I apologize. The important things is that prolifers need to work together, and I know you have many wonderful ideas -- but I fear people won't be open to them if you call theirs stupid.

reply from: faithman

If its stupid, then what am I suposed to call it? Babies die, and we can't call stupid tacts stupid? HHHHMMMM

reply from: yoda

Right there is where you shoot yourself in the foot. You talk about how we are alienating people, and yet you seem to go out of your way to insult us. In point of fact, your sentence above sounds like it came straight out of a Planned Parenthood propaganda piece.
Borrow a little humility from someone, we're not impressed with your claims of knowing it all. And we're not about to be dictated to.

reply from: yoda

Okay, I've just gotten your PM. I'll let you know what I hear from Troy.

reply from: faithman

Right there is where you shoot yourself in the foot. You talk about how we are alienating people, and yet you seem to go out of your way to insult us. In point of fact, your sentence above sounds like it came straight out of a Planned Parenthood propaganda piece.
Borrow a little humility from someone, we're not impressed with your claims of knowing it all. And we're not about to be dictated to.
You are the one lacking in humility. I have already posted that I use the aborted. You don't have the humility to check out what I am saying is true. You are the one who arrogantly hangs on to tactics that make more enemies. You are the one who is hell bent on offending folks with the blood, and then accusing one of planned parenthood propaganda. I would say that your humility level is pretty low as well hot dog. So why don't you practice what you preach.

reply from: faithman

Do the math.
What math are you refuring too?
You buy the computer for $20 dollars, take it to a print shop and run off cards posters, and the like. We have also printed them on t shirts and hats.
The post cards are about 5 cents apiece for a 20,000 card run.
Is that the math I need to do smart elic?

reply from: yoda

Faithman, I just got your PM and I'm checking it out now.
Meantime, think on this: I insult probabykilling advocates, not those who are sincerely trying to defeat the abortion culture in this country.
I've never seen a "ProLifer" jump into the middle of a forum and start lashing out at other antibabykilling advocates like you have. You may think you have all the answers, but we're not convinced yet.

reply from: faithman

Your math is the one off dude. It is a one time price of $20 for the CD, which gives you copy right privlages for the use of the pictures. Now listen so your pea brain don't get it wrong again. You take the cd to a print shop to make posters, cards and the like. I do not object to any resources to stop the baby killing. And if I find better than what I am using now, I will most assuredly start using it. I have never been paid for anything I have done for the cause of life, and would never Accept money for personal use from pro-life funds. I agree 100%. Most of what calls itself pro-life are pimps that make a living off of the pro-life dime. That is why I am for getting material into the hands of the individual. It is the individual who will end it. Not hiden agenda punks like OSA. The best material for the job at present is www.iamaperson.info. Send me a private note with a snail mail address, and I will send you a copy of the cd, and a sample of the cards we produced from them. send me an email address in a PM, and I will send you a baby picture message. You might be able to send the email to a print shop for reproduction.

reply from: Tam

Well, faithman, I find your attitude to be unfair and mean, but that doesn't mean that your ideas are not good ideas.

reply from: faithman

Faithman, I just got your PM and I'm checking it out now.
Meantime, think on this: I insult probabykilling advocates, not those who are sincerely trying to defeat the abortion culture in this country.
I've never seen a "ProLifer" jump into the middle of a forum and start lashing out at other antibabykilling advocates like you have. You may think you have all the answers, but we're not convinced yet.
...and that is the problemo. How can we clean this mess up, if we refuse to look at what we are doing honestly? If we are doing stupid things, then they need to be called stupid. If we have wolves in sheeps clothing running things, then we should cry aloud, and say no more. If what I am saying is not true, then I stand in the broad day light and say bring it. Prove it. I am sick of the "Niceness", while the babies die. I am tired of false prophets who high jack the movement as a platform for bad theology, and self proclaimation of being pope of all things pro-life, and makeing a comfortable living off of the pro-life dime. The babies die because of the "movement". send me A PM with an email address, and I will send you a baby pic message.

reply from: faithman

It is unfair to chop little children into pieces. It is unfair to make a living off of the pro-life dime and call it leadership. It is unfair to rub blood in the face of those who would get involved with the live pictures. It is unfair to the womb children, to keep doing stupid, when stupid means they die. I have no time for nice when it means children die. You want to rattle everyones cage with the bloody baby giblets, then get all huffy when someone dares to throw it back in your face. I will have time to be nice when the child in the womb is safe.

reply from: AshMarie88

So I'm guessing faithman is against showing the abortion photos?

reply from: yoda

Well we agree on that! Quite frankly though, your message of "don't upset anyone with aborted baby pics" sounds like a lot like "niceness" to me.
It's yodavater@aol.com

reply from: Tam

It is unfair to chop little children into pieces. It is unfair to make a living off of the pro-life dime and call it leadership. It is unfair to rub blood in the face of those who would get involved with the live pictures. It is unfair to the womb children, to keep doing stupid, when stupid means they die. I have no time for nice when it means children die. You want to rattle everyones cage with the bloody baby giblets, then get all huffy when someone dares to throw it back in your face. I will have time to be nice when the child in the womb is safe.
Well, great! Since nothing in that paragraph applies to me in the least, I guess you weren't speaking about me when you were being so rude. Carry on!

reply from: faithman

Your math is the one off dude. It is a one time price of $20 for the CD, which gives you copy right privlages for the use of the pictures. Now listen so your pea brain don't get it wrong again. You take the cd to a print shop to make posters, cards and the like. I do not object to any resources to stop the baby killing. And if I find better than what I am using now, I will most assuredly start using it. I have never been paid for anything I have done for the cause of life, and would never Accept money for personal use from pro-life funds. I agree 100%. Most of what calls itself pro-life are pimps that make a living off of the pro-life dime. That is why I am for getting material into the hands of the individual. It is the individual who will end it. Not hiden agenda punks like OSA. The best material for the job at present is www.iamaperson.info. Send me a private note with a snail mail address, and I will send you a copy of the cd, and a sample of the cards we produced from them. send me an email address in a PM, and I will send you a baby picture message. You might be able to send the email to a print shop for reproduction.
You said the CD is $20, then you said you have produced and distributed over 100,000 of them. Sorry my "pea brain" didn't get that.
Since you also said:
I now find it difficult to take you seriously. Your whole Christian morality thing just took a shot in the foot in my eyes as well. Some people find the whole "hey, we who are privileged to know the truth have an obligation to set you poor unfortunates on the right track" spiel insulting as well, but apparently you only consider the effects of insulting people from a "Christian" perspective, eh?
AAAAH! cute. Our "christian morality" says that we should ignore the life of the child, and afford all this lovey dovey stuff on the folks that kill them. Stop the killing then extend mercy.

reply from: faithman

Well we agree on that! Quite frankly though, your message of "don't upset anyone with aborted baby pics" sounds like a lot like "niceness" to me.
It's yodavater@aol.com
Matter of venue and audience. To the bloody at all cost no matter what, yes I will challenge it as very stupid. To a crowd of sold out pro-aborts I say rub their noses in the blood.
Venues with families and small children, I use the live pictures and a whole boat load of sugar syrup niceness. I always keep an aborted picture in my pocket and ask if the want to see what happens to a child when aborted. They always want to look without getting mad at me personally, but get mad at those who killed the child. If you force folks to look by public display, they resent having the issue forced on them. We can continue to self justify this tact, or realize that the live shots do not cause the same reaction, and gives mushy middle America a place to partisipate. If there were a way to enter into an honest competition, I would whip the bloody pictures hands down on effectiveness in changing hearts, and stopping abortion with the live shots. But nothing is honest about this issue on either side. So I really have nothing to lose by being pointed.

reply from: faithman

It is unfair to chop little children into pieces. It is unfair to make a living off of the pro-life dime and call it leadership. It is unfair to rub blood in the face of those who would get involved with the live pictures. It is unfair to the womb children, to keep doing stupid, when stupid means they die. I have no time for nice when it means children die. You want to rattle everyones cage with the bloody baby giblets, then get all huffy when someone dares to throw it back in your face. I will have time to be nice when the child in the womb is safe.
Well, great! Since nothing in that paragraph applies to me in the least, I guess you weren't speaking about me when you were being so rude. Carry on!
It is rude to kill the inocent... it is rude to make a living off of the pro-life dime... it is rude to dismiss fellow prolifers because of different ways of carrying out our duty towards God... It is rude to make pro-life some kind of fanatical avenue of carismaniac dominionalist gobaldigook, and disinfranchise many who would other wise help end the killing. I am unapologeticlly rude to stupid.

reply from: faithman

Your math is the one off dude. It is a one time price of $20 for the CD, which gives you copy right privlages for the use of the pictures. Now listen so your pea brain don't get it wrong again. You take the cd to a print shop to make posters, cards and the like. I do not object to any resources to stop the baby killing. And if I find better than what I am using now, I will most assuredly start using it. I have never been paid for anything I have done for the cause of life, and would never Accept money for personal use from pro-life funds. I agree 100%. Most of what calls itself pro-life are pimps that make a living off of the pro-life dime. That is why I am for getting material into the hands of the individual. It is the individual who will end it. Not hiden agenda punks like OSA. The best material for the job at present is www.iamaperson.info. Send me a private note with a snail mail address, and I will send you a copy of the cd, and a sample of the cards we produced from them. send me an email address in a PM, and I will send you a baby picture message. You might be able to send the email to a print shop for reproduction.
You said the CD is $20, then you said you have produced and distributed over 100,000 of them. Sorry my "pea brain" didn't get that.
Since you also said:
I now find it difficult to take you seriously. Your whole Christian morality thing just took a shot in the foot in my eyes as well. Some people find the whole "hey, we who are privileged to know the truth have an obligation to set you poor unfortunates on the right track" spiel insulting as well, but apparently you only consider the effects of insulting people from a "Christian" perspective, eh?
AAAAH! cute. Our "christian morality" says that we should ignore the life of the child, and afford all this lovey dovey stuff on the folks that kill them. Stop the killing then extend mercy.
Nice try. You were rude and insulting to me, yet I am staunchly prolife. If you do not make a point clearly, is it my fault if I misunderstand you? Even if I am at fault, is it necessary to be insulting? I hope you realize that this last reply seems to contradict your reasons for objecting to the use of abortion photos. You implied that it was counterproductive to offend, yet you now seem to present a contradictory attitude.
Just so we're clear, have you, or have you not distributed over 100,000 CDs at $20 a pop? Are you saying that what actually happened is that you purchased the CD for $20 and have distributed 100,000 copies of the data from the CD and have realized no personal profit? You see, I, and probably others as well, am still not quite clear in my understanding. It's very difficult with this "pea brain."
Hey, just following suit. No one seems to have a prob with insulting those they disagree with. Ok. so you exibit a little more brains than pea sized. May haps walnut? The cd is purchased, and then the 19 fiber optic photos are yours to use. You can save the $20 dollars byPMing me a snail mail address, and I will send you a free copy. Will also send a baby email if you PM me an email addess Could use a church or post box for security reasons. Don't want run of the mill insulters getting personal info.

reply from: faithman

It is unfair to chop little children into pieces. It is unfair to make a living off of the pro-life dime and call it leadership. It is unfair to rub blood in the face of those who would get involved with the live pictures. It is unfair to the womb children, to keep doing stupid, when stupid means they die. I have no time for nice when it means children die. You want to rattle everyones cage with the bloody baby giblets, then get all huffy when someone dares to throw it back in your face. I will have time to be nice when the child in the womb is safe.
Well, great! Since nothing in that paragraph applies to me in the least, I guess you weren't speaking about me when you were being so rude. Carry on!
It is rude to kill the inocent... it is rude to make a living off of the pro-life dime... it is rude to dismiss fellow prolifers because of different ways of carrying out our duty towards God... It is rude to make pro-life some kind of fanatical avenue of carismaniac dominionalist gobaldigook, and disinfranchise many who would other wise help end the killing. I am unapologeticlly rude to stupid.
I believe she was referring to your rude remarks to me. Do I correctly understand that you are justifying it on the grounds that I'm "stupid?"

reply from: faithman

It is unfair to chop little children into pieces. It is unfair to make a living off of the pro-life dime and call it leadership. It is unfair to rub blood in the face of those who would get involved with the live pictures. It is unfair to the womb children, to keep doing stupid, when stupid means they die. I have no time for nice when it means children die. You want to rattle everyones cage with the bloody baby giblets, then get all huffy when someone dares to throw it back in your face. I will have time to be nice when the child in the womb is safe.
Well, great! Since nothing in that paragraph applies to me in the least, I guess you weren't speaking about me when you were being so rude. Carry on!
It is rude to kill the inocent... it is rude to make a living off of the pro-life dime... it is rude to dismiss fellow prolifers because of different ways of carrying out our duty towards God... It is rude to make pro-life some kind of fanatical avenue of carismaniac dominionalist gobaldigook, and disinfranchise many who would other wise help end the killing. I am unapologeticlly rude to stupid.
I believe she was referring to your rude remarks to me. Do I correctly understand that you are justifying it on the grounds that I'm "stupid?"
only the hit dog yelps when your chunking rocks.

reply from: Shiprahagain

You guys might be interested in the testimonies of ppl who saw the mutilated baby photo exhibit from the Center of Bioethcial Reform.http://www.abortionno.org/AbortionNO/web_response.html

reply from: yoda

Seems to me that you are justifying your own "niceness" while condemning it in others. You have a reason for your "niceness", so what? Others have their reasons too! What's special about you?
How about the respect of other antibabykilling advocates? Does that not matter to you at all?

reply from: yoda

Yes indeed, Shiprah, there are thousands of documented testimonials to the effectiveness of the aborted baby pics. So far, I haven't seen any testimonials (except for faithman's) as to the effectiveness of the sono pics.
It seems to me that "forcing" people to confront the abortion issue in public places is totally justified. As Tam wrote in the first post of this thread, if child sexual abuse was accepted by a large part of our society as "normal", then it would be justified to show actual photos of what was happening to our children.
So now we are being told that the act of killing children is not a serious enough problem that we are justified to "put it in their faces" in public? I can't believe anyone who opposed abortion could say that.
People who stay within their "comfort zone" are not going to make any changes in their lives. We must be somehow shocked out of our complacency before we will open our eyes and begin to act. So to pander to the "emotional comfort" of the largely apathetic public seems totally counterproductive to me. As long as "the public" is comfortable, the baby killing will continue unabated.

reply from: Tam

Ok. How do you feel about trying to get pro-choicers to work to reduce abortion? That's something I've been working on for awhile. I mean, there are the ones who are looking to promote and encourage abortion, and those I'll have nothing to do with, but there are those who genuinely dislike abortion and are halfway to pro-life already, and get them working to, for example, make a community more welcoming to moms choosing life, and that's a step in the right direction--plus, working with pro-lifers has a gradual effect on pro-choicers to get them to see why we are pro-life. For many, they are only pro-choice because they don't fully understand why we are pro-life, and once they do understand, they change their minds as well. But start off with fighting about who is right and it is more difficult in some ways, because people turn off their brains when they're fighting.
But some people feel that to work with pro-choicers is to compromise one's own pro-life commitment, even if you're working with them toward a pro-life goal! How do you feel about it?

reply from: faithman

Seems to me that you are justifying your own "niceness" while condemning it in others. You have a reason for your "niceness", so what? Others have their reasons too! What's special about you?
How about the respect of other antibabykilling advocates? Does that not matter to you at all?
Not when gaining respect means agreeing with stupidity.

reply from: faithman

Ok. How do you feel about trying to get pro-choicers to work to reduce abortion? That's something I've been working on for awhile. I mean, there are the ones who are looking to promote and encourage abortion, and those I'll have nothing to do with, but there are those who genuinely dislike abortion and are halfway to pro-life already, and get them working to, for example, make a community more welcoming to moms choosing life, and that's a step in the right direction--plus, working with pro-lifers has a gradual effect on pro-choicers to get them to see why we are pro-life. For many, they are only pro-choice because they don't fully understand why we are pro-life, and once they do understand, they change their minds as well. But start off with fighting about who is right and it is more difficult in some ways, because people turn off their brains when they're fighting.
But some people feel that to work with pro-choicers is to compromise one's own pro-life commitment, even if you're working with them toward a pro-life goal! How do you feel about it?
I agee with you 100%. If we give some the room to gracfully retreat, we have won a valuable ally. There is a difference in being pro-life, and anti abortion. When we frame the issue from a pro-life stand, we are showing the evidence of life in the womb. We are saying we love life, and abortion is anti-life. It frames the issue where the pro-aborts are the fanatical nut jobs.
Anti abortion has it's [place Folks like ORW are very dedicated at what they do. You can not slight their effectiveness in closed clinics, and saved babies. Missionaries to the pre-born is another group I admire. I have a great deal of respect for The Army Of God as well. I was honored to be with AOG, and ORW in new orleans a few years ago. We were preaching the gospel in front of a drag queen bar in the quarter. REally wild night. The problem I have with the bloody boys, is they are so set for the fight, that they run smooth over folks who would get involved from a purely pro-life side. A swift end of this mess is what I am after. I will be the first to rejoice if what I am saying is proved wrong. I don't care about anyones respect. I don't care about anyones authority. I don't care about building a better organization. That is just a whole load of bovine fecal matter. I just want the babies to stop dieing. They keep dieing because we are being led by stupid people doing stupid things, and we are too stupid to call them on it.

reply from: MaleNurse

Faithman, What cost is involved in producing the cd's?
For someone who simply seeks to break-even to get a pro-life message out to the public via the live video. A re-writable CD in bulk goes for less than a dollar ($1) a piece maybe an additional dollar to produce (although anyone with CD-RW can do it for free). What do you get for $20 bucks vs. $2 ?
Otherwise, you should be wise and slow down for a second. Take a little time to get to know regular posters on this site.
Self-assessment is important for you right now.
Dave

reply from: yoda

So you want to reduce your relationship with all other antiabortionists to the matter of relative intelligence? That's your whole guiding principle?
Sorry to be blunt, faithman, but you leave an obvious opening here. If I judge you based on your postings on this forum as you seem to be judging us, I'd have to say that your respect means nothing to me because you behave in a stupid manner.
But I won't stoop that low. I've heard from Troy, who seems to hold you in fairly high regard, so I'll assume that you mean well, so I will not disrespect you as you have done us. But however well intentioned you are, you come accross as a pompous, rude, loudmouthed idiot. Take that however you wish.

reply from: MaleNurse

Hey faithman !
Do you call the women at the clinic "stupid pea-brains" in an attempt to talk them out of the murder at the abortion clinic?
I didn't think so.
It doesn't make for a very convincing nor engaging discussion does it? What makes you think it is any different in this pro-life forum?
An intelligent point speaks for itself. It doesn't require the use of name calling.
You owe a number of people here an apology. If you disagree, again, it's time for self-assessment.
No response yet on the cost breakdown on the CD's
What gives faithman?
Dave

reply from: Tam

I agee with you 100%. If we give some the room to gracfully retreat, we have won a valuable ally.
Exactly. No one likes to feel that s/he's been made a fool, but everyone with a functioning conscience can make the transition, no matter how drastic, from supporting wrong to supporting right.

reply from: yoda

OOOoops! There you go with that "niceness" stuff that you hate so much!
Only now you're being "nice" to the probabykillers, while you're being nasty to us.
And you're on our side? Go figure!

reply from: Tam

Look guys, the goal is not to be nice, and the goal is not to piss people off. The goal is to save the lives of innocent children. So let's just everybody take a big step back and calm down. There are many methods to try to save children's lives. We can debate about which ways are best, but let's try to stay focused on what's really important rather than let what could be a very productive discussion of best practices degenerate into a meaningless squabble.

reply from: GodsLaw2Live

I've noticed that a number of posters who claim to be both pro-life and religious seem to hold very extreme and insulting positions. It makes me wonder if they really are who they say they are. Are they pro-choicers trying to cause consternation and disagreement among those who support life.

reply from: yoda

Some may be, but others are just wack-jobs, as someone said. Every group has them, we're no exception.

reply from: faithman

So you want to reduce your relationship with all other antiabortionists to the matter of relative intelligence? That's your whole guiding principle?
Sorry to be blunt, faithman, but you leave an obvious opening here. If I judge you based on your postings on this forum as you seem to be judging us, I'd have to say that your respect means nothing to me because you behave in a stupid manner.
But I won't stoop that low. I've heard from Troy, who seems to hold you in fairly high regard, so I'll assume that you mean well, so I will not disrespect you as you have done us. But however well intentioned you are, you come accross as a pompous, rude, loudmouthed idiot. Take that however you wish.
I take it the way you intended, and the way you should have responded. It is refreshing to read a post that drops the pretence of civility, and reads like we really are in a fight for pre-born life. But you have hooked onto just part of my posts, and conveniently excludded parts of them. I am not totally against the use of bloody pictures. The scripture says to have no fellowship with darkness, but reprove them. The bloody does this best. The scripture also says to think on these things Philipians 4:8. When you are dealing with young minds, when you are dealing with folk who are not set for the fight, it is foolish to use material that makes them advisaries, instead of willing partisipants.
The way you feel about my posts is exactly the way some feel about the display of bloody pictures in venues where families, and school children are present. The fiber optic pictures of children in the womb, do more to educate without offence.Just as you don't think my demeaner is nessisary on this forum, is exactly the reason I think it is stupid to run ruff shod over people with loud mouthed over zealous baby giblet toten self justified numb skulls. [of which I was once chief offender].

reply from: faithman

My goal is to be nice when nice is the best way to bring folk into the fold of life advocates. It is also my goal to totally piss off stupidity. It is stupid to stand as a guard at a baby killing clinic. I do a p retty good job on pissing them off. It is stupid to work in a killing center, I have stood in fornt of their homes, and did a desent job of pissing them off as well. It is also my job to listen to folk, and find out what they need to be effective in the battle to save womb children. Many will not get involved with the baby giblets, but they will get involved with the fiber optic live pictures. School admins well run in horror, and totally shut down schools when parents dropping off their kidds are verbally, and vissually assalted with dead baby toteing radicals. We almost had the live shots into our local school system , until an out of town group came in and ran right over us, raised a stink, then left town leaving us the mess. The local government used the situation to pass ordances against sign flying. The school admins totally turned off to our efforts to get the live shots into the science department. I am rude to stupid? Every time!!

reply from: faithman

I engage the men more than the women. I tell them that real men raise their children they don't kill them. Don't look for any apology for calling stupid stupid.The only assessment Of self is that it is dead.
I have given the brake down several times. But to be kind to the stupid pea brained,
The CD Windows the the womb can be purchased from Life Issues Institute www.lifeissues.org. Send me a snail mail address PM and I will send you a copy of the CD, and a master copy of the materials produced, for free. I will also send an I Am A Person email, with a 7 week fiber optic photo , to anyone who will send me an e-mail to ric4life@sbcglobal.net . I do not recieve any personal income from anything I do for the cause of womb children. Any donations, or compensation goes into the reproduction of materials.

reply from: yoda

I\We've heard all that before, faithman, and it doesn't sway me. I've seen very young kids looks at the photos of aborted babies and remain perfectly calm, while their parents go bonkers. "Young minds" don't show any ill effects from exposure to this truth, only "older set in stone minds" seem to object. And I've yet to see anyone come up with an unbiased documentation of any ill effects on "young minds".

reply from: MaleNurse

Okay, Faithman, I'm giving you a chance to come clean. I am asking kindly.
This is "YES" or "NO" question.
Are you calling me "stupid"?
WWJD?

reply from: Tam

Ok. I see your point, Faithman. There are 2 kinds of pictures of unborn children: live ones, and dead ones. Both are used to wake people up about the fact that abortion kills unborn children, and that killing unborn children is wrong.
You know that the "dead baby" pictures are effective, but you used to think that *only* the "dead baby" ones were effective, so you used those all the time. In recent years, you've noticed that there are a couple of ways in which the "live baby" pictures are more effective: first, they are more welcomed in certain situations where the "dead baby" shots would be unwelcome, and second, they are able to penetrate the minds of a certain type of person for whom showing the "dead baby" pictures would be counterproductive.
I know that Yoda's point is that the "dead baby" pictures have never been shown to harm children, and I'm sure he's right that there is no proof of any direct harm, but I still would definitely go out of my way to make sure children of mine, who would know enough to oppose abortion without seeing bloody dismembered baby photos, wouldn't be exposed to them if at all possible. I don't like them, myself, although on an average week I probably hand out at least 100 of them to adults, and I have seen those adults in some cases show them to children with them, and come back to talk about it.
What I've done with teenagers is to show all kinds of live pictures, from conception until birth, and then ask if they want to see an abortion photo, giving those who do not want to see it a chance to leave the room or to look down at their desks for a moment. Then, when they've been suitably warned, display the slide with the abortion photo (I like to use one where 1) the entire dismembered body of the child is fully visible in the shot; 2) the body is being held by an adult hand in a surgical glove--a more personal way of showing size than by including coins; 3) the photo is in color; and 4) the photo is of a very young (8 weeks) child rather than a much older, near-term child. I have found that when they hear the reactions of the others in the class, every student who had not planned to look will end up looking anyway.
The experience of seeing a photo of a dead baby can be traumatic for teens, depending on their own history. One young girl (about 14?) was quite upset, and left the classroom crying. When I followed her into the hall to check on her (not leaving the class unattended; there are 2 of us teaching it), it turned out that her mom had been pregnant but that only a few days earlier, she had accompanied her mom to her checkup at which it had been determined that the child had died in the womb. So, the first part of her trauma had nothing to do with the dead child in the picture and everything to do with her recently deceased unborn sibling. Furthermore, this beautiful young lady has a brother with Down Syndrome, and she was upset at the idea that 90% of children with DS are killed before birth specifically because of their DS--sort of a, "Thank goodness this didn't happen to my brother" kind of thing. So, in both senses, she was upset on behalf of her beloved siblings, not merely traumatized by the sight of the dead child per se.
Anyway, those are just a few thoughts and experiences I have had with this issue. I think outside of abortuaries is a great place to display both kinds of photos, whereas probably outside of an elementary school, I'd stick with the live baby pictures. I don't worry too much about a child accidentally seeing a photo of a dead baby, but when I use them, the intended audience for those is adults and teens, not young kids. With young kids, I like to show them the "9 months of pregnancy" type of brochure, with pictures of every stage along the way, explaining to them that they were this little once, too.
One thing that occurs to me--yesterday I saw an egg hatch for the first time in my life. Never seen that before, and I was fascinated. I watched this egg for about 45 minutes, surrounded by a whole class of kids about 10 years old. The boys pretended not to be interested, wandered off to look at monkeys or something, but the girls were as hooked as I was, and the boys one by one gathered around as the chick inside pushed his way through the eggshell to be born. I think having exposure to experiences like that helps kids to understand that although the chick was "born" today, he was obviously there, inside that egg, yesterday. The kids were absolutely rapt, and it was precious to behold not only the baby chick emerging from his little egg to the great wide world, but also the reactions of the kids. Stuff like that helps kids understand the sort of thing they need to understand in order to comprehend what abortion really is.

reply from: faithman

Okay, Faithman, I'm giving you a chance to come clean. I am asking kindly.
This is "YES" or "NO" question.
Are you calling me "stupid"?
WWJD?
In a fun, hope I got your goat, kinda way? yahu

reply from: faithman

Little wordy, but the main jist. My stance exactly. We have no problem with the Passion carrying an R rating because of the violence. Isn't that so those with young minds could not indiscremenatly be influenced by imagery too adult for them? Who among us would say that malachi is any less graphic than the passion? Yet we can justify exposing young uns to imagery we will not allow the movie industry to do. Can you honestly contend that the baby giblets are emotionally healthy viewing for families? How can we honestly demand standards of others we are not willing to adhere to ourselves?

reply from: faithman

Not at all sir, I found the verbal jawsten quite enjoyable. You put up your dukes rather well.

reply from: Tam

Absolutely. And it is because they have no qualms about making the smallest of children the victims of graphic violence that the photos even exist.
As far as I'm concerned, I couldn't care less about the howling objections of the radical proaborts to seeing those pictures. However, a well-thought-out argument by a fellow pro-lifer about ways in which different images can be put to the best use in different situations is a bird of a different feather entirely, and to be considered seriously.
The point faithman is making, I'm pretty sure, has nothing whatsoever to do with "don't offend the proaborts; it's not nice" and everything to do with one simple concept: when you're trying to catch flies, you have more success with honey than you do with vinegar; when you're cleaning house, it's vinegar that you want and honey will do no good at all.

reply from: faithman

Thanks for the info. pretty much somes up my feelings about most things "pro-life". Yepper, stupid is a perfect fit.

reply from: faithman

Little wordy, but the main jist. My stance exactly. We have no problem with the Passion carrying an R rating because of the violence. Isn't that so those with young minds could not indiscremenatly be influenced by imagery too adult for them? Who among us would say that malachi is any less graphic than the passion? Yet we can justify exposing young uns to imagery we will not allow the movie industry to do. Can you honestly contend that the baby giblets are emotionally healthy viewing for families? How can we honestly demand standards of others we are not willing to adhere to ourselves?

reply from: galen

Faithman... I understood what you were saying about gore vs live from the beginning. What i still do not understand is your ability to think that belittling anyone will make them take a look at themselves and / or change thier point of view.
i have had run ins with people who came off as abraisive as you, IMHO they tend to do more evil than good with thier attitude.
If I want to raise funding for the home where i work, i have to speak to people from all walks of life and people of all faiths and creeds. i learned to tone down my image ( i am goth) and help people get past my personal style, so that they could focus on the message i was bringing. it seems to me that you may have the same problem. i have had a few people and groups in the recent past decide to support us, even though we are Catholic, pro-life, pro-women, etc. it all had to do with attraction rather than promotion.
Tone can effect part of how a message is recieved and the facts can do the rest.
Mary
"i've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel."
" if you don't like something change it, if you can't change it change your attitude"
maya angelou

reply from: faithman

That is my point exactly about abortion imagery. It is every bit as abrasive, and then some, compared to anything I have posted here. ...and yet...

reply from: galen

there is a big diffrence in pictures and attitude... i promise you that the pics you use can be ignored if the veiwer really wishes, but your attitude and tone stay with them. first impressions and all that.
mary

reply from: faithman

Agreed. That is why I always make it about the babies, and not personalities. We have far too many personality cults claiming to run things. I say very little when manning the display. I let the imagery do all the talking. Life in the womb does all the talking for me in public.

reply from: Tam

Hey, just to let you know, I got the stuff you sent me--THANKS! It is great. I haven't even looked at what's on the CDs you sent me yet, but I love the postcards and stuff.
To other pro-lifers: faithman is for real, he sent me some great stuff when I took him up on his generous offer.
Thanks again, faithman!!

reply from: xnavy

tam i have alot of your posts, you come off as a kind, gentle caring person with a heart of gold and a very big iq. i think the live pics and
the aborted pics are usefull when used together. i think your way wins more people than other ways. the bible preaches in proverbs about how
sweet words turn away wrath while scornfull words stir up wrath.

reply from: Tam

Wow! Thanks for the compliments! I think you're wonderful, too!

reply from: faithman

Hey, just to let you know, I got the stuff you sent me--THANKS! It is great. I haven't even looked at what's on the CDs you sent me yet, but I love the postcards and stuff.
To other pro-lifers: faithman is for real, he sent me some great stuff when I took him up on his generous offer.
Thanks again, faithman!!
Thanks. The offer stands good to anyone who contacts me.

reply from: yoda

Absolutely. But what can you do with a bunch of flies whose feet are stuck in honey?
I think the old honey homily fits very well with a lot of enterprises, but I'm not sure it fits with something as horrific as killing babies. I don't feel like I'm trying to attract folks to a "sweeter", or more pleasant concept as much as I'm trying to turn them away from an absolutely unspeakable outrage.
I think that repulsion to the very idea of killing babies is the most powerful force we have working for us, and for the babies. And if that repulsion offends some people, well I'll just bring my violin and play "Hearts and Flowers" for them.

reply from: Tam

LOL Good point. But helping people realize what's happening can be done in more than one way. I actually caught the escorts and other proaborts staring at the "I am a person" picture (a 7-week 4D ultrasound) several times--with the dead baby pix, they look away as quickly as they can. I think they look away because they can't deal with the reality--and the dead baby pix DO depict that reality and it IS effective--but the live baby pix are also effective, in different ways and perhaps even to different audiences.

reply from: yoda

I agree. I think they are most effective when used in combination, sort of a "before and after" display.

reply from: faithman

i will be taking the 3ft by 5ft I AM A Person poster to our fourth of July celebration again this year. I have no problem showing the live pictures to a broad audience. I keep aborted pictures descreatly in smaller tracts, and show them to folk who stop and ask questions. That way they don't get mad at me for forceing thier children to see horific imagery, but get properly mad that something like that could happen to the little child in the I Am A Person Poster. I was talking to a young man today, and he informed me that he paid $500 to have a child aborted. I pulled out the live baby display, and he just couldn't get over the beauty of the babies in the womb. I think it is beginning to set in what he has done. Of course me telling him that abortion is murder may have helped a little. I will show him the aborted stuff next. You have got to get people reconnected emotionally with womb Children. The live pictures do this best. Then when they see the aborted, the responce is more in our favor.

reply from: Tam

That's awesome, faithman.

reply from: faithman

Hey, just to let you know, I got the stuff you sent me--THANKS! It is great. I haven't even looked at what's on the CDs you sent me yet, but I love the postcards and stuff.
To other pro-lifers: faithman is for real, he sent me some great stuff when I took him up on his generous offer.
Thanks again, faithman!!
Thanks. The offer stands good to anyone who contacts me.

reply from: Tam

bumping this thread
of the threads i have started, this is the one with the most recent activity. so i'm bumping it to see what's up. and for the memory trip of the dialog with yoda and others.

reply from: saucie

Absolutely. But what can you do with a bunch of flies whose feet are stuck in honey?
I think the old honey homily fits very well with a lot of enterprises, but I'm not sure it fits with something as horrific as killing babies. I don't feel like I'm trying to attract folks to a "sweeter", or more pleasant concept as much as I'm trying to turn them away from an absolutely unspeakable outrage.
I think that repulsion to the very idea of killing babies is the most powerful force we have working for us, and for the babies. And if that repulsion offends some people, well I'll just bring my violin and play "Hearts and Flowers" for them.
I love this reply by Yoda.
I'm so glad you bumped some of these threads, Tam.

reply from: Tam

Bumping again for Yuuki

reply from: balthazar

How is raping a conscious, living, breathing, independent child the same as ending the growth of a gathering of cells that has no self awareness in the uterus of a woman who doesn't want to start something they're not ready to finish? I think this whole thing is ridiculous. It's not self aware, so how can you consider that life? It's no different than cutting down a tree in your yard!

reply from: AshMarie88

Tonight when you go into REM sleep, or a deeper sleep, you won't be self aware either. Someone could put a gun to your head while you're in deep sleep, pull the trigger, and you wouldn't even know it.
A blind and deaf person wouldn't be self aware if someone decided to shoot him/her from a long distance.
A newborn waking up from sleep or sleeping is not self aware yet.
How can you consider those people lives?!?! They aren't self aware, so they must not be living!!

reply from: balthazar

It's a fetus. A growing organism that's not a person. Until it's got a will of it's own, and is developing mentally, and thus is "Self-Aware" it's not a person. It's no more murder to perform abortion than it is for me to masturbate into a tissue and waste the cellular organisms that I spray all over the carpet by accident. Or than it is for a woman to spew a bloody breakfast egg onto a rag in her pants every month. They're a collective of cells. Not a person.

reply from: JasonFontaine

This is where your "reasoning" is so lost and comes up so pathetically "short" - you've never been accused of that - have you? It's such a lame argument - you are such a troll - why bother?
Throw the tissue away and feel bad when mommy comes in - it's natural at your age. The woman's natural cycle is what it is...natural. You see Elmo - the MOMENT both of those are put together....and the cells begin dividing and forming things like lungs, a heart - that's the difference. From the moment they unite - well - the only way to turn back is to deny this LIFE any choice at all. Kind of ironic - isn't it.....choice begins BEFORE the union of this stuff on toilet tissue and egg onto a rag join together....but hopefully you will remain in the tissue and never actually have anything uniting....keep it in the tisue balthazar! PLEASE!
Since we brought up eggs....slowly repeat after me: "The egg's NOT dead!"

reply from: balthazar

Until the brain begins complex thought patterns, it's not a person. Plain and simple. Lungs are lungs. An organ. A collection of cells with no "CHOICE" at all. Doesn't matter, though. And yea, buddy. I admitted to bein' a troll. And either way.. Who said murder was wrong, anyway? Besides that, just because the thing is growing doesn't mean it's a thinking person yet. Be back later. I'm going to go suck the bone marrow out of a live two year old.

reply from: AshMarie88

http://birthpsychology.com/lifebefore/early.html

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Our Father said murder was wrong because men are made, like God, to reason, judge and manage life and all creation.
There is no greater creation than man. We are, quite literally, gods, offspring of the Father.


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